Jacques Vallée — "The Bizarre Nature of UFOs" (WEAPONIZED #102, 24 Dec 2025)

Source: WEAPONIZED with Jeremy Corbell & George Knapp, Episode #102, "Jacques Vallée - The Bizarre Nature of UFOs." Full episode on Jeremy Corbell's YouTube. URL: https://youtu.be/sOOAVlatb2E (~2:13:37; uploaded 2025-12-24).
Captured: 2026-06-09, full verbatim auto-transcript (timestamps). Provenance only; analysis on ../../sources/vallee-interdimensional-hypothesis and ../../topics/plasmoids-and-plasma-life.
Plasma relevance (~the "control system" passage): Vallée frames UFOs as possibly environmental / a planetary "control system" rather than nuts-and-bolts craft — "UFOs could be from the environment. There could be plasmas. Many people say… many UFOs manifest the way plasmas would be manifested," and poses the physics puzzle of a "globe of plasma… how come it can last for 10 minutes? … it certainly shouldn't." This is the prosaic-physical (yet unexplained) end of the plasma motif — distinct from the "sentient plasma life" framing elsewhere.

---

[00:00:00.719] 1917 and and [music] the experience of
[00:00:03.120] Fatima where most people they portrayed
[00:00:06.400] it as a cultural [music]
[00:00:07.759] or religious event and you looked at it
[00:00:10.960] you know from the observations
[00:00:12.480] scientifically
[00:00:13.360] >> Fatima is very deep um
[00:00:17.119] both in terms of uh testimony I mean
[00:00:19.760] there were 80,000 people there you know
[00:00:23.199] on the last operation
[00:00:26.080] um
[00:00:27.680] they didn't see the virgin
[00:00:30.400] They they saw a [music] disc
[00:00:33.680] uh silver thing between them and the
[00:00:36.719] sun.
[00:00:37.280] >> You showed me a case this morning uh
[00:00:39.440] something you wanted to talk about and
[00:00:40.879] when you showed me the image, [music] it
[00:00:43.120] uh reminded me of a a military image
[00:00:46.239] that George and I obtained and released
[00:00:48.320] to [music] the public. Can you show me
[00:00:50.480] or show our audience that image and and
[00:00:52.879] why that case is important? The photo
[00:00:54.800] that you said you wanted to talk about?
[00:00:56.640] >> Yes. But what they described to me is a
[00:00:59.440] very sophisticated
[00:01:01.760] process by which we may be able to
[00:01:05.119] interact with the entities.
[00:01:09.200] >> But so, so you're saying you've been
[00:01:11.040] made aware [music] that there is a
[00:01:12.960] government project, maybe it was 20
[00:01:14.640] years ago, that was able to establish
[00:01:16.799] direct communication with a nonhuman
[00:01:19.280] intelligence and that you believe this
[00:01:21.520] information to be true and that and that
[00:01:24.159] and and [music] that this is a reality.
[00:01:26.240] This is what you understand to be true.
[00:01:28.080] Is that correct?
[00:01:29.920] >> Um
[00:01:31.600] I cannot tell.
[00:01:34.079] Yes. Yes. Uh it it's factual.
[00:01:39.280] >> This is weaponized.
[00:01:43.491] [music]
[00:01:49.360] >> This is weaponized. I'm George Knap
[00:01:51.600] coming to you from Las Vegas. Jeremy
[00:01:53.759] Corbel, friend and colleague of mine.
[00:01:55.520] How you doing?
[00:01:56.640] >> Great, man. Good to see you.
[00:01:58.320] >> This is a pretty big day for us here. I
[00:02:00.000] mean, in the, you know, in the long and
[00:02:02.000] tortured history of the UFO subject,
[00:02:05.439] investigations into that mystery as well
[00:02:08.080] as offshoot phenomena related to UFOs
[00:02:11.120] that are bizarre and frightening on
[00:02:12.959] their own. There's there's no more
[00:02:14.879] singular and more important figure than
[00:02:17.040] Jacqu Balet. And you and I have talked
[00:02:18.720] about this a lot over the years. uh he's
[00:02:21.520] like at the forefront of so many key
[00:02:24.160] moments in history, not just UFO
[00:02:26.239] history, but history. I mean in other
[00:02:28.879] industries and topics as well. He he was
[00:02:31.360] a pioneer in the development of the
[00:02:33.360] internet, in the development of AI,
[00:02:35.920] which is huge. Uh he was there at key
[00:02:39.120] moments in the overall investigation of
[00:02:41.920] of UFOs both in France where he was
[00:02:44.239] trained as an astrophysicist here in the
[00:02:46.560] US in in cases all over the place. He
[00:02:49.200] was there with Jay Allen Heinik on
[00:02:50.879] Project Blue Book in the beginning. He
[00:02:53.200] became a venture capitalist in Silicon
[00:02:55.599] Valley, kind of a key place to be. He's
[00:02:58.080] done breakthrough research with NIDS,
[00:03:00.319] the organization that was created here
[00:03:01.760] in Las Vegas 30 years ago, almost
[00:03:04.159] exactly to the day, and with BASS, I
[00:03:06.800] mean BAS, the organization that Robert
[00:03:09.680] Bigalow created to handle the contract
[00:03:12.239] for the DIA and this OSAP program. Half
[00:03:15.519] of the budget for that program was
[00:03:17.920] creating a data warehouse and Jacques
[00:03:20.400] designed it, created it. It is the
[00:03:22.480] world's largest UFO data warehouse that
[00:03:25.680] we know of anyway. 260,000 cases. Um,
[00:03:29.280] you know, he's done boots on the ground
[00:03:30.959] research in Brazil, in Argentina, in
[00:03:33.840] France, uh, elsewhere in Europe and
[00:03:35.920] Central America and South America, all
[00:03:38.159] over North America as well. He's been
[00:03:40.319] there at the forefront of this topic for
[00:03:43.200] as long as you know as long as I've
[00:03:44.799] known him, which is a heck of a long
[00:03:46.239] time and longer. And you know, I mean,
[00:03:49.599] the books that he has written, if you
[00:03:51.519] have a a UFO library at home, those are
[00:03:54.400] the essential books. Jeremy, you've been
[00:03:56.080] to my house, you know, the piles of
[00:03:57.680] books. I don't even know how many there
[00:03:59.280] are here in UFOs and related subjects.
[00:04:02.400] Certainly more than 10,000 or so. that
[00:04:05.599] valet uh shelf that I've got and the
[00:04:08.400] ballet books that are scattered all over
[00:04:10.080] the place. That's the that's the core
[00:04:12.239] that that's the core information um in
[00:04:15.120] the entire library. He's the deepest
[00:04:16.959] thinker and probably the best writer on
[00:04:19.680] the subject in my estimation in the
[00:04:22.160] world. So, you know, getting Jacqu Valet
[00:04:24.720] on weaponized is something you and I
[00:04:26.560] have imagined and have talked about, but
[00:04:29.120] until today I never really was sure we
[00:04:31.280] would do it.
[00:04:32.880] >> Yeah. You know, as I said in 2019 on the
[00:04:35.520] Rogan podcast, it's Jacques
[00:04:38.080] Valet. I the guy's a legend. You know,
[00:04:40.880] he's been uh involved in this o over
[00:04:44.000] decades and he has really been a
[00:04:46.479] changer. He's changed things up. He
[00:04:48.639] shook things up. Specifically, what I
[00:04:51.040] mean by that is when everybody was
[00:04:52.800] talking about the extraterrestrial
[00:04:54.400] hypothesis, you know, he pushed that on
[00:04:57.440] its head and came up with the
[00:04:59.199] interdimensional idea and he and in a
[00:05:02.000] lot of ways he's revolutionized the way
[00:05:04.160] that we look at the UFO phenomenon. I've
[00:05:06.639] got a few key points of why I thought
[00:05:08.639] it'd be great to have him on. Now, now
[00:05:10.160] look, he's very mercurial. He's like a
[00:05:12.560] jazz musician. He'll talk and and you
[00:05:14.960] have to like listen because he goes,
[00:05:16.639] "Yeah, he weaves because his life is so
[00:05:18.720] rich. He doesn't think about the UFO
[00:05:20.880] phenomenon in the same way we do." And
[00:05:22.960] and I think you'll see that in the
[00:05:24.720] interview. But I was really excited
[00:05:26.479] because as a friend, I've been able to
[00:05:28.639] talk with him and correspond and have
[00:05:30.639] him to to my house a couple times. And I
[00:05:33.120] really got the most insight from that is
[00:05:35.280] just one-on-one dialogue. But the reason
[00:05:37.440] I wanted to have him on today is because
[00:05:39.680] a few of the revolutions that he's
[00:05:41.280] created in this field is really about um
[00:05:44.560] when when we're looking at the
[00:05:45.759] government control, he said some very
[00:05:47.520] material things over the years. For
[00:05:48.880] example, he says that the governments
[00:05:51.360] don't control the phenomenon, they react
[00:05:54.000] to it, which is contrary to like the
[00:05:56.080] conspiratorial assumptions that we all
[00:05:57.919] have. Valet concludes often when you
[00:06:01.039] talk with him that governments are not
[00:06:02.880] orchestrating the phenomenon and that
[00:06:05.039] they struggle to even understand it
[00:06:07.039] themselves. He once said, "Intelligence
[00:06:09.199] agencies collect data but they do not
[00:06:11.759] control the phenomenon and they
[00:06:13.520] misinterpret it through their own
[00:06:15.680] institutional bias." So, I wanted to
[00:06:18.080] talk with him because right now there's
[00:06:20.720] all this talk that a lot of what we're
[00:06:22.400] seeing is black budget uh programs of US
[00:06:25.919] technology. Look, I wish that was true.
[00:06:28.319] He has definitively proven through his
[00:06:30.400] research over the decades that this
[00:06:33.199] phenomenon is pervasive. It's
[00:06:35.840] persistent. It's unusual. That it's got
[00:06:38.960] extreme depth and it's got a
[00:06:41.120] everchanging uh characteristic to it. He
[00:06:45.199] said, "A secret program cannot explain
[00:06:47.680] identical phenomena reported centuries
[00:06:49.759] before aviation across rival nations and
[00:06:52.800] in eras with no technological
[00:06:54.960] infrastructure capable of producing such
[00:06:57.520] effects." He's told us for decades that
[00:07:00.240] this cannot be explained with military,
[00:07:03.120] government, craft, and that sort of
[00:07:04.800] thing. So having him on today I think is
[00:07:07.280] really important especially in the era
[00:07:09.520] um that we're in because he sees the
[00:07:11.440] real mystery not just being the craft
[00:07:13.919] themselves but what he calls the
[00:07:16.160] interface the human interface. He once
[00:07:19.120] said Jock Valet once said the most
[00:07:21.120] important data may not be what the
[00:07:23.199] objects are made of but how they change
[00:07:26.080] us. And I just thought that was such a
[00:07:28.000] cool and material way to look at it. So
[00:07:30.960] this is Jacques Valet on weaponiz a
[00:07:33.360] dream come true. excited to have you,
[00:07:35.039] Jacques. Well, Dr. Valet, it's Jeremy
[00:07:37.919] and I have been looking forward to
[00:07:39.199] speaking to you on Weaponized for a long
[00:07:41.280] time. You and I spoke a few months ago,
[00:07:43.919] earlier this year, but there's always so
[00:07:46.240] much more to ask. I'd like to get your
[00:07:49.039] impressions of current events, Congress.
[00:07:51.919] So, we've had five hearings in since
[00:07:54.319] 2017, public hearings. Do you see value
[00:07:58.000] in those hearings? because it seems like
[00:08:00.800] the members of Congress are frustrated
[00:08:03.120] that they're not quite getting what they
[00:08:05.680] want. And can you reflect on your own
[00:08:08.720] experience with Congress? 1968, you were
[00:08:11.840] involved in that first hearing. Um, were
[00:08:14.560] you hopeful back then? Are you hopeful
[00:08:16.879] now that uh congressional investigation
[00:08:20.960] might actually lead somewhere?
[00:08:24.000] >> Well, I um I did not participate. I was
[00:08:28.160] not asked to participate in the in the
[00:08:31.199] latest hearings. I was asked to
[00:08:35.760] uh to meet with the um the the experts
[00:08:42.080] for the intelligence committees, you
[00:08:44.480] know, as an extension of the work I had
[00:08:48.000] done with pass and uh in in you know in
[00:08:52.880] terms of background data that that the
[00:08:57.360] committee could use and should know
[00:08:59.760] about. So I I went to Washington, spent
[00:09:03.200] a couple of hours
[00:09:05.519] uh with the staffer of the intelligence
[00:09:09.279] committee which is a very impressive
[00:09:11.839] place in Washington. Um
[00:09:15.600] I obviously we we went over you know a
[00:09:19.440] lot of details and so on. So my
[00:09:21.760] impression is that Congress is doing
[00:09:24.080] this with a number of people who are
[00:09:26.560] knowledgeable about the long-term
[00:09:29.200] research and they are building some of a
[00:09:33.120] a database
[00:09:35.200] uh that they can use to place the new
[00:09:37.680] information and I think that's the the
[00:09:41.200] right thing to do is to uh you know to
[00:09:44.560] fill to back fill
[00:09:47.200] uh versus the new testimony coming and
[00:09:51.440] and uh which is what we see you know
[00:09:54.160] what what you George you know and both
[00:09:56.880] of you participated in so uh I'm I'm
[00:10:02.080] hopeful that that's um you know I had
[00:10:05.360] experience with congressional hearings
[00:10:08.240] before twice and you know that's sort of
[00:10:14.399] funny the the first time was as you know
[00:10:17.120] I' I've worked extensively in the early
[00:10:19.600] days of the internet and the openet and
[00:10:23.040] that raised a lot of questions for
[00:10:25.760] Congress about where this was going and
[00:10:29.360] what they should be funding. Uh the um
[00:10:35.200] uh Mr. Kennedy uh in those days uh had a
[00:10:41.839] a hearing uh with that involved uh the
[00:10:46.160] post office among other things to see
[00:10:48.560] what the impact. So that was my
[00:10:50.560] experience going to Washington to
[00:10:52.560] testify and to to be part of those
[00:10:55.680] discussions both uh official and and
[00:10:59.040] back you know discussions about the
[00:11:02.320] impact that the network if it developed
[00:11:05.600] would have on the post office and that
[00:11:09.279] was very interesting because uh I was
[00:11:12.160] there you know there were two of us who
[00:11:14.720] were considered you know internet
[00:11:16.800] experts uh everybody else was with
[00:11:20.399] different communication companies and
[00:11:22.880] the post office and the the consensus
[00:11:27.519] was that they could wait and that the
[00:11:30.560] technology would help them and so uh I
[00:11:35.120] had concerns about that because I could
[00:11:37.519] see how fast the network was going to
[00:11:40.320] develop and especially develop in terms
[00:11:43.120] of message systems and and systems like
[00:11:46.160] what we're using now and the you know I
[00:11:50.480] approached some of the people there
[00:11:53.519] saying look uh you know we should we
[00:11:57.519] should also consider that first class
[00:12:00.399] mail is going to disappear.
[00:12:02.959] I mean when is the last time you put a
[00:12:05.680] stamp on a letter on a handwritten
[00:12:08.959] letter that you mailed? Okay. And
[00:12:13.440] uh
[00:12:15.360] the answer was look uh one in every
[00:12:20.560] worker in the US uh one in every 100
[00:12:25.360] workers in the US works for the post
[00:12:27.519] office directly or indirectly. So we're
[00:12:31.279] not going to raise that question now. So
[00:12:34.880] the the the message I got from that is
[00:12:38.480] that yes they they know the some of the
[00:12:41.440] answers they understand very well what's
[00:12:44.320] going on but they it has to be balanced
[00:12:47.839] with the social reality and you know the
[00:12:51.519] uh the bureaucratic reality of of the
[00:12:54.720] whole country and I I was reminded of
[00:13:00.079] that by some of the discussion that you
[00:13:02.720] know that you I participated in that uh
[00:13:06.720] watching the reaction of the
[00:13:08.399] congressmen.
[00:13:09.920] I I think they they they understand
[00:13:12.560] what's going on. But those meetings are
[00:13:15.600] not science meetings. They're not
[00:13:17.839] technology meetings. And a lot of people
[00:13:20.480] want to talk about technology. And
[00:13:22.720] that's not what Congress is about. I
[00:13:25.120] mean, Congress is about uh adjusting the
[00:13:28.399] laws of the country and managing the
[00:13:32.480] social reactions to events and uh you
[00:13:36.959] know many of these people have a
[00:13:38.639] background in law or business not not in
[00:13:42.079] mathematics or astronomy or uh so uh
[00:13:47.040] that's that's important to know you know
[00:13:49.760] and and to understand the the problem
[00:13:52.959] they have in taking the the the data
[00:13:56.560] that you know that that they got from us
[00:14:00.079] or from the UFO community and and then
[00:14:04.720] managing it properly so that
[00:14:09.519] you know the community can understand
[00:14:11.360] it.
[00:14:12.959] But I always remember that that comment
[00:14:15.440] about the post office. Yes, of course
[00:14:17.519] they're going to lose all first class
[00:14:20.320] mail in a few just a few years. And my
[00:14:24.959] point was they should concentrate on
[00:14:27.199] packages because people will want to
[00:14:29.760] send more packages because there will be
[00:14:32.240] much more communication and all the
[00:14:35.120] first class communication is going to be
[00:14:37.760] with the software that we're developing
[00:14:41.040] which is what's actually you know what
[00:14:43.839] went on and uh yes today they uh you
[00:14:48.160] know the post office manages a lot of
[00:14:50.160] packages but most of that business has
[00:14:53.360] gone two private companies,
[00:14:56.399] >> FedEx being the first
[00:14:58.880] >> the other. So they've lost that market.
[00:15:01.279] >> They've lost a leadership in that
[00:15:02.880] market.
[00:15:04.160] >> You you've se you saw hearings happen in
[00:15:06.480] the 60s and George was telling me about
[00:15:08.880] that with J. Allen Heinik and there was
[00:15:11.120] two congressional hearings, but now
[00:15:13.839] we've had a number of modern-day
[00:15:15.760] hearings with people coming forward. Do
[00:15:18.240] you feel those are valuable? Do you
[00:15:20.399] think these hearings are good for the
[00:15:22.240] UFO topic for the American public that
[00:15:24.959] we're doing that again since the 60s?
[00:15:28.720] >> Well, in in part uh I think this is back
[00:15:33.279] because there is a new generation of
[00:15:36.240] people discovering UFOs on on the web on
[00:15:40.240] you know and they don't know the the
[00:15:45.040] depth of the information and who was
[00:15:47.519] involved and what was done. So
[00:15:51.360] if you suddenly try to make a decision
[00:15:56.160] uh about publication of certain things
[00:15:59.040] and so on, people you know might not
[00:16:01.680] understand the context and I think what
[00:16:05.120] they are doing which is wise is to
[00:16:08.079] expose the public to the the the the
[00:16:11.920] context of all of that. I think when
[00:16:15.040] George spoke about Russia, about the
[00:16:17.199] documents from Russia, uh, as you know,
[00:16:20.079] I've been in in contact with in those
[00:16:23.759] days. I I don't plan to go back now, but
[00:16:27.519] in those days I was in in contact with
[00:16:29.759] some of the same people in and the
[00:16:32.079] scientists and Russia was surprisingly
[00:16:35.440] open at that point. you know, at certain
[00:16:38.079] times they there were some openings when
[00:16:42.320] um you know, when I went there, there
[00:16:44.560] were three different scientific panels
[00:16:48.000] looking at UFOs from different areas and
[00:16:52.079] uh so all all of that uh needs to be
[00:16:55.360] brought up so that people are you know
[00:16:58.160] the culture is brought in at the same
[00:17:01.920] time. Uh we're still waiting as you said
[00:17:06.160] you know it's been 5 years we're still
[00:17:08.160] waiting for the just the resistance for
[00:17:12.880] for the for the real thing that we can
[00:17:16.480] uh that that that science can look at.
[00:17:20.400] Do you see any any chance any hope that
[00:17:24.480] Congress will be able to pierce that
[00:17:27.120] veil of secrecy and find out where the
[00:17:30.240] goodies are stored? If if in fact we
[00:17:32.559] have nonhuman intelligence and non-human
[00:17:36.000] intelligence and technology, is Congress
[00:17:38.640] the way to go? Uh it seems to me there
[00:17:41.120] is value in the hearings even if members
[00:17:44.000] of Congress are frustrated because they
[00:17:46.400] can't get to that point that the keepers
[00:17:48.880] of the secrets are never going to give
[00:17:50.960] this up not even to Congress. What do
[00:17:53.039] you think?
[00:17:59.200] As as you know, I I
[00:18:02.640] was a member of the NIDS organization
[00:18:07.600] of of the science board for meds in Las
[00:18:10.400] Vegas with Mr. Bealoo uh and and the
[00:18:14.559] team uh and then of the BAS project
[00:18:19.360] which was sponsored by the government.
[00:18:22.640] Um
[00:18:25.360] my area of responsibility was uh
[00:18:29.520] together with the team that they
[00:18:32.799] recruited was about half of the budget.
[00:18:35.600] Okay. Uh people have spoken about some
[00:18:38.880] of the things that were uh you know some
[00:18:42.320] of the investigations that were done and
[00:18:44.320] so on. uh nothing has been said about
[00:18:47.840] the data with the database which was
[00:18:50.160] really a data warehouse that we built.
[00:18:53.919] Um the idea that that that I proposed
[00:18:58.160] and that I initiated was a three-stage
[00:19:01.840] process on on the computer. We recruited
[00:19:06.559] you know about 25 to 30 people who were
[00:19:10.080] investigators, translators. We had
[00:19:12.960] translators from u French, Spanish,
[00:19:16.080] Portuguese and Russian. Uh we took uh a
[00:19:20.320] number of databases that I donated to
[00:19:22.720] the project and a number of others that
[00:19:26.640] their own that were brought in and we we
[00:19:31.200] built a data warehouse of 14 databases
[00:19:34.320] communicating among them. and that that
[00:19:38.880] project uh was going to go into a second
[00:19:42.320] phase. We ended up with 260,000
[00:19:46.160] filtered
[00:19:48.160] cases for which there was real
[00:19:50.640] information out of you know all the
[00:19:53.440] things that are floating around and in
[00:19:57.520] you know in in those several languages
[00:20:00.000] and countries. The the the next phase in
[00:20:04.320] the plan was to reduce that to you don't
[00:20:09.200] need 260,000
[00:20:11.200] cases. You need maybe 50,000
[00:20:15.280] filtered cases where you maximize the
[00:20:19.120] information that you can you can get.
[00:20:22.240] And uh we had uh you know a process of
[00:20:26.400] selection we were going to go through
[00:20:28.640] and this has been published by the way
[00:20:30.880] uh in uh in in a couple of books that
[00:20:34.320] have come out but you collaborated with
[00:20:37.280] uh George your name is on on the first
[00:20:40.400] one. So I'm not you know uh
[00:20:44.159] disseminating any great secret but the
[00:20:46.880] information was is still classified.
[00:20:49.919] Now without that second phase of data
[00:20:54.880] reduction and data improvement and
[00:20:57.280] cleaning
[00:20:58.960] the database is useless. Okay. It's uh
[00:21:02.880] you can yeah you can put AI on top of it
[00:21:05.919] but the AI is going to go you know off
[00:21:09.039] the road
[00:21:10.880] because you know too much of it is
[00:21:14.880] information that looks like it's
[00:21:16.880] relevant to UFOs. It may be margin
[00:21:20.159] marginally relevant but it's not what
[00:21:23.360] you're looking for you know in science.
[00:21:26.480] And so whoever has that now
[00:21:30.799] um
[00:21:32.400] you know it doesn't know what the plan
[00:21:35.200] the real plan was. So the plan was a
[00:21:38.400] data reduction and then two years of AI.
[00:21:41.280] In other words I was told that you have
[00:21:44.400] five years. So I said two years to for
[00:21:47.360] data gathering around the world and
[00:21:49.760] translation so that everything is in
[00:21:51.919] English. um and then uh one year of data
[00:21:57.760] filtering and and improvement and then
[00:22:01.280] we'll have two years for AI and then
[00:22:04.559] we'll get
[00:22:07.039] you know we'll drive it to the point
[00:22:08.799] where we have the basic answers to the
[00:22:12.000] the nature of the the data itself at the
[00:22:16.240] ground level not just you know pilot
[00:22:20.159] data not just some you know astronomical
[00:22:24.159] pictures so on but the real data in the
[00:22:27.280] field and uh
[00:22:32.640] we don't know where that is you know the
[00:22:35.840] the project was cut off
[00:22:39.120] um usually as you know I had clearances
[00:22:42.799] on
[00:22:44.559] other projects at at Stanford Research
[00:22:47.440] Institute working with Dr. put off and
[00:22:50.159] and his team and so on and uh at the end
[00:22:54.080] of the project I was debriefed. Uh then
[00:22:57.679] there was a second project with Ed May
[00:23:01.120] uh and again I was debriefed here. I I
[00:23:04.559] wasn't debriefed. So I I called Dr. Put
[00:23:07.360] off I called Dr. Keller. They haven't
[00:23:10.000] been debriefed either. So we don't even
[00:23:13.200] know what's still classified and what's
[00:23:15.919] not classified. So I'm treating
[00:23:18.640] essentially every everything we did
[00:23:21.520] including the data as no as classified
[00:23:25.679] um and I respect that. But there is a a
[00:23:29.760] deeper problem here that in um in in the
[00:23:35.120] military area uh you you need if you're
[00:23:41.200] developing if we're developing a new
[00:23:43.120] rocket it it needs to be classified
[00:23:47.200] um
[00:23:49.039] at least throughout the development
[00:23:51.360] project. uh when you start testing it,
[00:23:53.919] people will understand that there is a
[00:23:56.400] new technology. that that all you need
[00:23:59.760] is, you know, you're going to call two
[00:24:01.919] of your friends who are experts in
[00:24:04.240] propulsion and one who's expert in
[00:24:07.600] optics and one who is expert in
[00:24:09.600] electronics and you know, six or seven
[00:24:12.799] people and you can keep the secret and
[00:24:15.919] you'll be funded to develop that
[00:24:18.000] particular you know that particular
[00:24:20.000] weapon or that particular uh instrument.
[00:24:24.720] That's not true with UFOs. I mean, the
[00:24:27.760] information is in the mind of the farmer
[00:24:31.440] I'm going to meet somewhere, you know,
[00:24:33.440] in Kansas. And as you know, I've spent a
[00:24:37.520] lot of my time going to uh to to meet
[00:24:41.440] people at their farm or in their their
[00:24:44.480] house um gathering that kind of
[00:24:48.000] information. It's not what Congress is
[00:24:50.880] looking at. They are looking at pictures
[00:24:53.360] from
[00:24:54.960] fighter craft, you know, fighter planes
[00:24:57.679] and satellites and and all that. And
[00:25:00.559] they are looking at mainly at the
[00:25:03.440] military because there is this idea that
[00:25:06.720] the phenomena may be a threat, which is
[00:25:10.320] a valuable, you know, idea to to look
[00:25:13.760] at. But that's not all. I mean in in
[00:25:16.720] many of the cases I had um that
[00:25:21.600] published
[00:25:23.120] uh the thing was not a threat. It was it
[00:25:26.960] was minding its own business. You know
[00:25:29.520] it appears and it's not something you're
[00:25:32.080] going to track out of space with a
[00:25:34.080] telescope. It appears as a point of
[00:25:37.279] light and people are intrigued by the
[00:25:40.400] point of light and then it expands
[00:25:44.240] into you know an an area of light and
[00:25:48.159] then out of that emerges something that
[00:25:51.919] looks like a craft and then it lands
[00:25:56.159] uh it may be 40 ft in in diameter and it
[00:25:59.600] makes an impact on the ground and in the
[00:26:02.720] case in Valenc So, you know, is a
[00:26:04.960] perfect case it, you know, and
[00:26:09.679] so you can you can analyze with soil. We
[00:26:12.640] we've done all of that, but it's not
[00:26:14.960] something you can track that anybody can
[00:26:18.320] track with a telescope.
[00:26:20.559] And uh in the case in Valenc, there's a
[00:26:25.360] a very good movie now about Valenc. Um
[00:26:30.000] the um when I I met with with the
[00:26:33.360] witness, spent three days there with
[00:26:35.279] with the witness and it took us to the
[00:26:38.320] place and I said, "Well, you know h how
[00:26:40.720] did it go away?" And he said, "Well, it
[00:26:43.440] it lifted and then it went off at an
[00:26:46.480] angle and then it vanished." And I said,
[00:26:49.760] "Well, do you mean it vanished by just
[00:26:52.960] accelerating?" He said, "No, it just
[00:26:56.080] wasn't there anymore."
[00:26:58.240] Okay. So, and I have a number of cases
[00:27:02.000] like that that I've that the people did
[00:27:04.640] not want to publish. Uh, so I' I've kept
[00:27:08.080] them
[00:27:10.000] but very well described and very well
[00:27:13.840] you know I'm in Silicon Valley so people
[00:27:16.559] have been in Silicon Valley for 40
[00:27:18.640] years. uh I funded about 70 companies
[00:27:22.480] with my you know with my friends from a
[00:27:25.279] number of funds uh within that community
[00:27:29.039] people know me pretty well. So, I've had
[00:27:31.679] a number of CEOs coming to me saying,
[00:27:34.559] you know,
[00:27:36.559] we have a a a house on the coast and me
[00:27:40.559] and my family, you know, we've seen
[00:27:42.480] something and and I say, well, can I can
[00:27:45.679] I publish it? Can I put it that? He
[00:27:48.960] said, "No, you know, I'm the I'm running
[00:27:53.600] a company and uh people cannot, you
[00:27:58.240] know, people on Wall Street has to know
[00:28:00.240] that I'm I'm a serious guy." And I run
[00:28:05.039] into that situation all the time. So,
[00:28:07.279] Congress does not have that information.
[00:28:12.320] They may have it from other people. They
[00:28:14.640] may have that kind of information, but
[00:28:18.159] so far they've only concentrated on on
[00:28:20.960] the the armed forces because again the
[00:28:25.200] the motivation is
[00:28:28.080] in order to to get um you know funding
[00:28:32.799] for anything the the best way to do it
[00:28:37.120] is to say this is a potential threat.
[00:28:40.480] Now in the rest of the world people are
[00:28:42.640] not treating it as a threat. You know
[00:28:45.200] the the Russians never thought it was a
[00:28:47.840] threat. I mean you you went there George
[00:28:50.559] uh they they their attitude certainly
[00:28:54.000] the the scientists have spoken to was uh
[00:28:57.440] you know this is a fascinating
[00:28:59.200] phenomenon and we should study it
[00:29:01.520] because we're going to learn something
[00:29:03.760] important about physics and um there is
[00:29:08.720] no
[00:29:10.480] none of that filter that that we we have
[00:29:15.679] here the same thing in France um you
[00:29:18.480] know the the official group studying it
[00:29:21.279] is uh
[00:29:23.279] the French science agency that's been
[00:29:27.679] know since the days of cloer in the late
[00:29:31.360] in the early 70s you know has been
[00:29:34.320] consistently
[00:29:35.919] just uh taking
[00:29:39.039] reports from the from the public and uh
[00:29:42.640] sending people there to do analysis and
[00:29:45.679] so on and you know I've worked I've been
[00:29:48.320] working with them on and off for a
[00:29:50.720] number of of years. Uh and uh that's not
[00:29:56.000] considered necessarily as a threat or is
[00:29:59.039] a is a military subject. The military is
[00:30:02.960] obviously interested
[00:30:05.360] interested in the potential technologies
[00:30:08.000] that could derive from it, but they the
[00:30:11.279] the public is still seeing it as
[00:30:15.919] um you know, more like an extension of
[00:30:18.880] science fiction. You know, wouldn't it
[00:30:20.880] be nice to know what else is in the
[00:30:24.720] universe?
[00:30:28.000] Yeah. Um, Jacques, I got a question. For
[00:30:31.039] for 50 years, you've been looking at
[00:30:32.880] this problem not just as technological,
[00:30:35.760] but also as cultural. A lot of your
[00:30:38.399] writing is about that. And I I want to
[00:30:41.120] talk about that, but a lot of people
[00:30:42.880] like me, we get introduced to this
[00:30:45.360] through the nuts and bolts, the the
[00:30:47.440] technology. There's rumors that the
[00:30:49.840] United States government has been able
[00:30:51.760] to reverse engineer what we call UFOs.
[00:30:55.520] Do you have any personal knowledge if
[00:30:57.679] we've made any headway? You say as a as
[00:31:00.159] a scientist, you say it's important that
[00:31:02.559] we can look at this to be able to
[00:31:04.399] reverse engineer it. That's what a
[00:31:05.919] scientist would want to do. Have we been
[00:31:08.559] successful? Has the United States do do
[00:31:11.039] we have craft that traverse the cosmos
[00:31:13.840] because we've reverse engineered them
[00:31:15.440] from UFOs or is that mythology? As far
[00:31:18.159] as you're concerned,
[00:31:20.720] >> the the investment community, the
[00:31:24.000] venture capital community in California
[00:31:27.600] is is a sophisticated community and it
[00:31:31.600] has its own way of keeping secrets and
[00:31:35.120] exchanging secrets because a secret that
[00:31:38.480] you keep uh is is pretty useless in
[00:31:41.200] business. No, you
[00:31:44.159] you at the end of the day, you have to
[00:31:45.840] be able to sell something that people
[00:31:48.559] like uh or want. And uh so
[00:31:54.240] there is a network and you know someone
[00:31:58.159] you know who used to be with the CIA for
[00:32:01.440] a long time told me you know don't think
[00:32:04.080] that we have these great secrets first
[00:32:06.559] in Washington. uh we we find a
[00:32:09.919] technology when we come to San Jose uh
[00:32:13.840] that could be applicable to something we
[00:32:17.039] do and then we you know we we use it we
[00:32:21.840] take it we use it we may classify some
[00:32:25.200] applications of it but uh you guys have
[00:32:28.640] been working on it you know openly for
[00:32:32.000] two years and there may even so there
[00:32:34.880] there is even a curve that uh people
[00:32:37.840] look at of of are patents. You know, you
[00:32:40.799] have patent one, two, and three about a
[00:32:44.080] new technology and then all of a sudden
[00:32:49.279] nothing is published for 10 years and
[00:32:52.000] then some product comes out that
[00:32:55.279] everybody thinks is extraordinary. Well,
[00:32:58.480] what happened during those 10 years when
[00:33:00.640] nothing was published? And there are a
[00:33:03.039] number of areas in science like that
[00:33:05.600] that you can look at. It's very
[00:33:07.440] interesting. Well, for 10 years it was
[00:33:10.480] classified. They it was then, you know,
[00:33:13.919] in some lab somewhere, maybe at Los
[00:33:16.159] Alamos, maybe at uh Battel, maybe at
[00:33:21.360] developed it into something that could
[00:33:23.679] be a product, either a product for a
[00:33:27.919] computer you're going to buy. I mean
[00:33:29.840] it's uh or it could be uh it could be a
[00:33:33.679] product that will go into a new weapon
[00:33:36.159] system. So if in Silicon Valley if if
[00:33:41.200] you're trusted
[00:33:44.320] they you know people don't sign
[00:33:48.240] special contracts or secrecy things and
[00:33:51.200] so on. But if if uh if you're told
[00:33:56.240] something which is
[00:33:58.960] sensitive and you don't keep it to
[00:34:03.200] yourself or you don't then you can't be
[00:34:07.679] trusted and you're not going to you know
[00:34:10.960] it's like Hollywood you know you're
[00:34:12.800] you're not going to you go eat eat lunch
[00:34:16.560] in San Jose you know next year and
[00:34:20.639] that's the way the system works. It
[00:34:23.040] works on trust. And people think Silicon
[00:34:26.639] Valley is all new stuff. It's not new
[00:34:28.879] stuff. It goes way back, you know, it
[00:34:31.520] goes back to actually before World War
[00:34:34.000] II. So those those relationships of
[00:34:37.599] trust are very deep and people talk
[00:34:41.119] about UFOs within those relationships.
[00:34:44.159] >> I'm just asking you, have we reverse
[00:34:46.720] engineered technology from non-human
[00:34:49.440] intelligence? Do you have knowledge of
[00:34:51.440] that? Have we done that?
[00:34:53.359] >> So I I wanted to get back to that the if
[00:34:58.079] if we had there are there would be signs
[00:35:02.720] that would be visible
[00:35:07.280] you know certainly in Silicon Valley and
[00:35:09.599] in other places
[00:35:12.000] they there there would be repercussions
[00:35:14.400] you would see um
[00:35:17.599] um
[00:35:19.760] and
[00:35:21.839] You know, that's one of,
[00:35:25.839] you know, if you read espionage novels,
[00:35:28.880] I mean, that's a typical thing, uh, of
[00:35:31.839] of claiming that you know something to
[00:35:34.960] elicit
[00:35:36.560] information from witnesses or from other
[00:35:40.320] people or agents or and
[00:35:45.040] uh there are a number of things that
[00:35:46.800] have intrigued me that
[00:35:50.560] in in documents that we've looked at you
[00:35:53.119] know within NDS and and Bas looked at a
[00:35:56.640] number of quote official documents that
[00:36:00.240] had very surprising thing you know uh
[00:36:03.520] the MJ12 documents you know massive and
[00:36:07.599] they contain a lot of them where we can
[00:36:11.440] trace historically to an authentic
[00:36:14.560] document somewhere and then along the
[00:36:17.200] way somebody talks about flying saucers
[00:36:21.920] and where did that come from? So did
[00:36:26.000] General Eisenhower who was he briefed
[00:36:28.560] about flying saucers and what and you so
[00:36:32.560] you have all these rumors and someone
[00:36:36.560] you know explained to me that if you
[00:36:38.960] suspect that there is someone within an
[00:36:44.079] organization who is uh an agent from
[00:36:48.320] foreign power and you want to know
[00:36:53.040] say you know a science scientist at Los
[00:36:54.720] Rosalamos who's in a classified project.
[00:36:59.520] uh you want to know if he's
[00:37:03.760] likely to leak information somewhere,
[00:37:07.839] you can plant a document that comes to
[00:37:10.400] his knowledge that has a number of
[00:37:12.320] keywords and then you have somebody in
[00:37:16.000] Czechoslovakia
[00:37:17.520] who looks at what comes in within a
[00:37:21.359] particular
[00:37:23.440] group or particular office and if you
[00:37:26.800] see that keyword coming up then you can
[00:37:29.119] you have two two parts of the link.
[00:37:33.040] Uh you know I I've never been trained to
[00:37:36.320] learn about those things but those are
[00:37:38.240] tricks that and we know you know I'm not
[00:37:42.640] going to use any names but we know
[00:37:44.960] people within the UFO community who were
[00:37:48.640] a t asked to work with researchers and
[00:37:52.560] so on to help do exactly that. get
[00:37:55.680] documents and sort them. I was told
[00:38:01.119] by a member of the Academy of Sciences
[00:38:04.720] who had worked on UFOs.
[00:38:08.400] Um I I I I asked him about the way the
[00:38:14.000] database from Bas had vanished
[00:38:17.760] essentially
[00:38:19.839] and he said well you know it may be
[00:38:26.640] reborn somewhere
[00:38:29.599] um in a salted state.
[00:38:34.800] And I asked what he meant because I had
[00:38:37.599] never understood I had never heard that
[00:38:42.079] concatenation of words.
[00:38:44.640] And he said, well, you know, you take
[00:38:47.440] data and you want to know who is going
[00:38:50.079] to use it. So you you you change the
[00:38:53.839] data and then you you alter the data or
[00:38:57.440] you destroy the data so that if it shows
[00:39:01.040] up somewhere you'll know um you know how
[00:39:04.640] it was how it was leaked or how it was
[00:39:07.359] used
[00:39:08.880] and that
[00:39:11.680] um you know I don't know about those
[00:39:14.320] techniques. I've never been trained in
[00:39:16.560] in that that kind of uh you know that
[00:39:20.240] kind of skill and uh of course that
[00:39:24.400] would explain why scientists don't want
[00:39:26.880] to get into this business because this
[00:39:29.200] is not the way science is done. You know
[00:39:31.839] if I if as you know I I've
[00:39:35.680] turned over all my
[00:39:39.359] samples to Dr. Nolan at Stanford uh so
[00:39:43.359] that we can continue to do the
[00:39:45.040] investigations together about those
[00:39:47.359] cases. We've started to publish as you
[00:39:49.440] know in the number one aerospace journal
[00:39:53.359] about the analysis of some of those
[00:39:55.680] cases and uh you know it's all cases
[00:40:01.359] where I have verified the history. I
[00:40:04.960] verified, you know, where they came from
[00:40:07.520] and how they were acquired to the best
[00:40:10.400] of my ability and he knows that. Okay.
[00:40:14.000] And he can he knows he can trust that.
[00:40:17.520] Of course, you know, we're
[00:40:20.640] we may discover something in the
[00:40:22.800] analysis that tells us more about
[00:40:27.520] where it may have occurred naturally or
[00:40:30.079] whatever. That doesn't mean that all of
[00:40:32.400] it is valid, you know, UFO data, but uh
[00:40:37.200] at least the the data is clean to this
[00:40:40.240] level. Uh he knows I'm not salulting the
[00:40:46.240] you know the stones or the data, you
[00:40:48.560] know. Uh and
[00:40:51.680] uh that's the way you do science. Now if
[00:40:54.960] if those games are being played
[00:40:58.880] as they seem to have been played with
[00:41:00.960] the BAS project in Las Vegas, then the
[00:41:05.680] data is useless, which means we have to
[00:41:08.240] start from the beginning. But George,
[00:41:11.359] you know, it's been 14 years since the
[00:41:14.480] end of the BAS project.
[00:41:17.119] 14 years during which that database of
[00:41:20.720] 260,000
[00:41:22.240] cases has disappeared.
[00:41:25.760] Now suppose that somebody has a database
[00:41:28.880] and they may be very good people
[00:41:30.960] somewhere in a classified project and
[00:41:33.760] they want to use it. How you know in 14
[00:41:36.880] years many of those witnesses have died.
[00:41:40.240] They've moved you can't find them
[00:41:42.720] anymore. you know, how are you going to
[00:41:45.520] validate the data because the there are
[00:41:48.800] there are cases where you need to go
[00:41:50.800] back and find additional witnesses, you
[00:41:54.319] know, from that area. Well, all that is
[00:41:56.960] gone. So, if somebody wanted to
[00:42:03.200] essentially derail the study we were
[00:42:06.319] doing, that would have been the way to
[00:42:08.480] do it. Okay? Even if it went to a new
[00:42:11.359] group of scientists, they didn't have
[00:42:14.560] the the internal plan for the uh how the
[00:42:18.640] AI was going to be applied to the
[00:42:20.720] project. So what I'm doing is you know I
[00:42:24.000] have all the data uh it's not as good as
[00:42:28.319] of course as what Bass had done but I
[00:42:31.200] have the original data that I had
[00:42:34.319] donated to the project but I have the
[00:42:37.119] right to use it and then A lot of it is
[00:42:40.400] actually public data but um you know I
[00:42:44.880] spent as you know
[00:42:47.280] a lot of years uh compiling it and
[00:42:50.720] reducing it to the right format. So I've
[00:42:53.839] restarted to work on it but to work on
[00:42:57.280] it by myself. Now fortunately you know
[00:43:00.240] computers now are much more capable and
[00:43:03.200] they are they have primitive AI and you
[00:43:07.200] know my PhD was in AI from the days of
[00:43:10.160] Dr. Heinik. So uh I I understand what
[00:43:14.240] you can what you can do with hard
[00:43:17.119] physical data. Uh, and I'm I'm doing it
[00:43:22.560] on my own now. Uh, just out of curiosity
[00:43:26.319] for the the years that I may uh I I may
[00:43:30.560] still have. And uh I'm am going to um
[00:43:36.079] start publishing some results from from
[00:43:39.200] that, you know, as as time goes on. The
[00:43:42.560] first one was the uh the presentation I
[00:43:46.319] made at Saul, you know, a few weeks ago
[00:43:48.960] in Italy uh about that uh that that case
[00:43:52.400] which is actually
[00:43:54.480] in um you know in in the in the report
[00:43:58.960] from
[00:44:00.720] um from the Condan report uh that nobody
[00:44:04.560] has noticed because it's in in the
[00:44:07.200] appendex of the Condan report and
[00:44:10.560] everybody threw that out because they
[00:44:12.720] thought there was nothing there. Well,
[00:44:15.440] um this is a case that's unidentified
[00:44:19.200] after extensive study by the content
[00:44:22.400] committee, the both the physicist and
[00:44:24.880] the social science guys um with um with
[00:44:30.480] analysis with u infrared photographs
[00:44:34.079] from aircraft at night and so on over
[00:44:37.839] that forest. And um and I have the wood,
[00:44:41.119] you know, I I still have not not here.
[00:44:44.400] It's in a safe place, but I I have the
[00:44:47.760] wood that was impacted by the radiation
[00:44:50.079] from that object, which was an object in
[00:44:54.800] the forest. The the witness was a
[00:44:58.960] nuclear physicist. So I put him in touch
[00:45:02.400] with Condan. Dr. Hinek and I were the
[00:45:05.359] first scientists who were called to
[00:45:07.359] testify,
[00:45:08.880] you know, in in Boulder before the
[00:45:11.839] Condan Committee to brief them on the
[00:45:14.720] history of all that. And um
[00:45:19.359] I'm going to continue that that study.
[00:45:22.079] We want to get the uh get the data from
[00:45:25.520] the wood the the data we've uh we've
[00:45:28.079] looked at it in France and we published
[00:45:31.440] that that paper with my my French uh
[00:45:34.560] physics uh uh colleagues and uh it was
[00:45:39.119] taken to Saklay in in France which is
[00:45:42.480] the main atomic research facility and we
[00:45:46.640] think that within the wood there are
[00:45:49.280] layers of radiation intens intensity.
[00:45:53.040] The the witness saw the object pulsating
[00:45:57.040] and the the calculations on the energy
[00:46:01.520] would give you something equivalent to
[00:46:03.839] the energy of a reactor at Diablo Canyon
[00:46:09.359] and uh
[00:46:11.920] a sort of ball of light in a clearing in
[00:46:16.560] a pine forest. At night when it was
[00:46:20.160] raining, temperature was close to zero
[00:46:23.680] uh I mean to freezing and the the the
[00:46:27.359] thing was pulsating but it was no more
[00:46:29.599] than two or 3 meters in diameter.
[00:46:33.599] Uh the witness being a a nuclear
[00:46:36.240] physicist young professor at a local
[00:46:39.119] university
[00:46:40.960] um you know got the hell out of there.
[00:46:44.000] He was just driving home with his family
[00:46:47.119] and all that was published in the Condan
[00:46:50.640] report. No, not not all of that because
[00:46:53.760] they continued to do the research
[00:46:55.520] afterwards. Um, they took wood from the
[00:47:00.960] the trees that had been burned, but it
[00:47:04.640] was it's not a burn, it's a radiation
[00:47:07.200] impact. Uh so they took the the bark and
[00:47:11.440] the bark from the intact part of the
[00:47:14.640] tree and uh they sent it to the
[00:47:18.480] government, you know, radiation
[00:47:21.520] expertise lab
[00:47:23.760] that returned it with no comment. They
[00:47:26.800] obviously had looked at it and didn't
[00:47:29.280] want to be involved.
[00:47:31.839] So I I called uh the witnesses and I
[00:47:35.040] said, "Can I have it?" this was a few
[00:47:37.440] years after the sighting and they said
[00:47:40.240] sure. So they they sent it to me and uh
[00:47:43.920] I've kept it uh ever since. So we have
[00:47:49.119] the report from the witness uh who had
[00:47:52.720] computed the the energy and Dr. Comeden
[00:47:56.319] recomputed the energy and found twice as
[00:47:58.960] much from the actual distances and so on
[00:48:03.599] after they they have done that's in the
[00:48:06.160] common report
[00:48:08.560] and again that's a case that's not that
[00:48:12.640] euphologists have never talked about.
[00:48:16.560] >> So you wrote
[00:48:17.839] >> I have all the data so I'm going to
[00:48:20.079] continue working on it and I really
[00:48:22.480] don't need anybody else. I mean, I I
[00:48:24.800] don't need uh you know, a big group. I
[00:48:28.160] don't need funding. I don't need
[00:48:29.839] anything. I can just go ahead go ahead
[00:48:32.559] with my friends and do that.
[00:48:35.520] You wrote a book about a crash at
[00:48:37.440] Trinity 1945. It's 80 years ago. Where
[00:48:41.839] is that? They didn't just take it to the
[00:48:43.920] dump and cover it with dirt. Where is
[00:48:45.760] that object? Where hanger 18? Where did
[00:48:48.720] they keep it? and and and in the same
[00:48:50.960] vein I mean
[00:48:52.559] >> it was taken to Los Alamos which is a
[00:48:55.119] logical place to take it. Um the the
[00:48:59.440] book when it first came out was uh you
[00:49:02.240] know book know Trinity was uh with with
[00:49:06.319] Paola Harris who had done four years of
[00:49:10.000] investigation before I got involved. So
[00:49:13.839] which is valuable because at that time
[00:49:16.240] both of the witnesses were alive. By the
[00:49:18.960] time I got involved, Remy had died. that
[00:49:22.960] uh you know one one witness is still you
[00:49:26.319] know very much uh very much alive and
[00:49:30.079] you know and uh the book was criticized
[00:49:35.599] with some flaws
[00:49:38.000] in my you know I mean uh it's my fault
[00:49:43.280] not digging fast enough in or deep
[00:49:47.520] enough into the actual documents
[00:49:50.960] um a a critic, you know, a good critic,
[00:49:54.160] a good skeptic, there are good skeptics,
[00:49:56.880] the ones who actually do the work,
[00:49:59.520] >> uh, went and got a number of documents
[00:50:02.880] that, uh, showed that there were some
[00:50:06.240] inaccuracies in what I had published.
[00:50:09.280] And now that happens in science, I mean,
[00:50:11.359] it happened to Einstein. So, you know,
[00:50:13.839] I'm not going to apologize too much for
[00:50:16.559] that. that I did go back and now we have
[00:50:19.599] four more years of of research on it and
[00:50:22.720] we have verified you know all the
[00:50:26.079] information we could. There are two
[00:50:28.160] cases where um he's right about the
[00:50:32.079] actual name of the policeman who was
[00:50:35.440] there was not the name that the witness
[00:50:38.720] remembered. Okay. Well, the witness is a
[00:50:42.319] little bit older than I am, and uh you
[00:50:44.960] know, memory uh plays games, but he was
[00:50:49.839] there with another policeman. Uh and you
[00:50:53.839] know, little by little, we've we've done
[00:50:55.680] all that. So, we've republished the book
[00:50:58.240] now with with a lot more information
[00:51:01.040] that answers all those all those
[00:51:03.839] questions.
[00:51:04.720] >> But after 80 years, the government has
[00:51:07.040] not acknowledged that as being real. It
[00:51:09.760] doesn't tell us where that is. I think
[00:51:11.920] about Stephen Spielberg uh his
[00:51:14.640] magnificent film Close Encounters. Lome
[00:51:17.520] the character based on you
[00:51:20.079] arranges this meeting with aliens. If
[00:51:23.440] that event happened today, I don't
[00:51:25.599] believe the public would ever hear about
[00:51:27.520] it just as we have not heard about the
[00:51:30.400] object that crashed at Trinity for 80
[00:51:32.640] years. Um can you address the idea of
[00:51:35.839] secrecy? whether some level of secrecy
[00:51:38.480] is necessary and where are we ever going
[00:51:41.599] to learn um you know the the physical
[00:51:45.280] objects are real that the government's
[00:51:47.760] been stashing them away and no matter
[00:51:50.160] how many times Congress asks questions
[00:51:52.640] or holds hearings
[00:51:54.880] they're not going to tell us
[00:51:57.599] >> well some of them
[00:52:01.760] are real and you know I I I respect the
[00:52:05.599] research has being done by the you know
[00:52:09.520] Muon and Kufas and Appro especially and
[00:52:13.040] so on. uh they've gone to the site,
[00:52:16.160] they've interviewed the people, they've
[00:52:17.839] seen the traces uh I've done some of
[00:52:21.280] that um
[00:52:23.520] um
[00:52:25.359] you know with with with colleagues and
[00:52:29.200] uh
[00:52:31.359] the
[00:52:33.920] recently you know where that you you can
[00:52:37.280] still go to the site some enough of the
[00:52:39.520] witnesses are still alive that you can
[00:52:42.000] get your own data and make up your own,
[00:52:44.800] you know, your own decision about that.
[00:52:47.359] But, um, I think a number of those cases
[00:52:51.680] are fake or they were
[00:52:55.280] that doesn't mean that there wasn't an
[00:52:58.000] official
[00:52:59.680] report that there had been a UFO.
[00:53:02.720] But, um,
[00:53:05.280] you know, I I remember that discussion
[00:53:07.359] with Dr. He neck. I know that there are
[00:53:10.160] cases
[00:53:12.160] there are cases in the blue book fives
[00:53:14.960] that are unidentified and classified.
[00:53:18.400] Very few of them. Most of the blue book
[00:53:20.800] fives were unclassified from the
[00:53:23.599] beginning. Okay. That was the whole
[00:53:25.839] point was to reassure the public.
[00:53:29.200] Uh no scientist bothered to look at them
[00:53:32.240] except Heneck and me and and Dr.
[00:53:35.680] Macdonald.
[00:53:37.440] Um but in in those in those cases
[00:53:42.800] uh you know the classified cases uh you
[00:53:46.559] know I I asked Dr. behind neck. Well,
[00:53:49.359] you know when why is this particular
[00:53:53.040] case classified? Don't tell me if it's,
[00:53:55.200] you know, if there is something really
[00:53:56.880] secret, but and he laughed. He said,
[00:53:59.920] "Well, you know, this is in the very
[00:54:03.040] early days. This woman in Alaska saw a
[00:54:07.280] light in the sky that was a big light at
[00:54:12.240] sunset that was flying, you know, and it
[00:54:18.400] was flying from east to west over
[00:54:22.640] Alaska."
[00:54:25.520] Well,
[00:54:27.119] you know what would be flying from east
[00:54:29.280] to west at very high altitude over
[00:54:31.520] Alaska in the 50s?
[00:54:34.559] It would be an early U2.
[00:54:38.640] The Air Force knew that
[00:54:41.440] it was reported as a UFO.
[00:54:44.800] So they
[00:54:47.440] I you know they they labeled it as
[00:54:50.720] unidentified UFO and they you know kept
[00:54:55.680] it as classified.
[00:54:58.000] So if you look at the file now, if
[00:55:00.480] somebody you know innocently goes back
[00:55:03.200] to the file which are still there, they
[00:55:05.760] find this classified case which by now
[00:55:08.880] has been declassified
[00:55:11.119] and they find this this UFO over Alaska,
[00:55:15.119] they you know they are going to be very
[00:55:17.920] intrigued if they don't know the
[00:55:19.839] backstory
[00:55:21.839] that you know this woman innocently had
[00:55:25.280] detected you know a secret
[00:55:28.559] CIA aircraft
[00:55:32.240] and of course it's unidentified.
[00:55:34.880] So you have to get into the details. You
[00:55:38.480] have to do the you have to do the the
[00:55:41.040] homework, you know, as as you guys have
[00:55:44.240] done. And uh that's that's how you get
[00:55:48.240] to the to the truth instead of, you
[00:55:50.960] know, going off on a tangent somewhere.
[00:55:54.240] that it you know it takes time and it
[00:55:56.640] you you need to have
[00:55:59.920] the trust and it's all about trust. The
[00:56:03.680] fact that the
[00:56:06.319] um that there is something unique
[00:56:09.119] somewhere
[00:56:10.799] doesn't really you you have to you
[00:56:14.480] cannot base it on secrecy because sooner
[00:56:18.240] or later somebody is going to sell it to
[00:56:20.480] somebody. I mean there are too many
[00:56:22.480] spies in Washington and so on and they
[00:56:25.760] you know that again that information
[00:56:27.920] will be salted and changed and used uh
[00:56:31.920] and that that world is that's not a
[00:56:36.640] world where you can do science. It's not
[00:56:38.559] a world where you can advance knowledge.
[00:56:42.000] Knowledge is based on trust. Um so
[00:56:47.760] um
[00:56:50.319] if you want to build something that
[00:56:53.599] really changes the world, it's not by
[00:56:56.880] spreading misinformation around or
[00:56:59.760] making making little secrets look like
[00:57:03.599] big secrets because uh sooner or later
[00:57:07.040] you'll be caught. I mean that's not the
[00:57:08.960] way to do it. Um [snorts] I think that
[00:57:13.119] in this again there is a place for
[00:57:15.520] secrecy that I respect. There is a place
[00:57:18.559] for classification of of certain things
[00:57:22.079] that I respect and I've always followed.
[00:57:25.680] Uh but
[00:57:28.160] this is too big now. I mean it involves
[00:57:30.400] too many countries. It involves if if we
[00:57:33.440] keep secrets the French are going to
[00:57:35.119] keep secrets. They already do. The
[00:57:37.280] Russians certainly are going to keep
[00:57:39.040] secrets and the Chinese even more. And
[00:57:41.920] then where do we go? I mean, everybody
[00:57:45.520] has part of the information.
[00:57:51.200] >> Jeremy.
[00:57:52.240] >> Yeah. So, Jacques, I wanted to talk with
[00:57:54.559] you a little bit about a these days a
[00:57:57.200] lot of people are saying that the UAP
[00:57:59.520] we're seeing are reverse engineered
[00:58:01.920] black projects. I gather from your
[00:58:04.160] answer that you don't think we've made a
[00:58:06.880] lot of progress with reverse engineering
[00:58:09.040] the technology over the last 50 years
[00:58:11.760] you've been studying this but more
[00:58:13.920] importantly you say this is not a modern
[00:58:16.880] phenomenon that it crosses all cultures
[00:58:19.760] and all time that the UFO phenomenon is
[00:58:22.799] persistent global and adaptive that's
[00:58:25.520] something you talk about and you've
[00:58:27.599] really you've really um proven that case
[00:58:30.720] by going back into antiquity
[00:58:32.960] in a couple of your books and talking
[00:58:35.119] about how people are seeing the same
[00:58:37.040] things back then that they're seeing
[00:58:39.839] now. One of those cases that you wrote
[00:58:42.319] about and I wanted just to hear about it
[00:58:44.240] from you is 1917 and and the experience
[00:58:47.680] of Fatima where most people they
[00:58:50.799] portrayed it as a cultural or religious
[00:58:53.280] event and you looked at it you know from
[00:58:56.160] the observations scientifically. Can you
[00:58:58.799] tell me how cases like Fatima in 1917,
[00:59:03.119] how they relate to the modern-day UFO
[00:59:05.599] thing? Explain to us what happened in
[00:59:07.839] Fatima.
[00:59:10.319] >> Um,
[00:59:12.559] how much time do we have?
[00:59:15.280] No, Fatima is very deep. Um,
[00:59:19.359] both in terms of uh testimony. I mean,
[00:59:22.079] there were 80,000 people there, you
[00:59:25.280] know, on the the last operation.
[00:59:28.079] Uh,
[00:59:30.000] they didn't see the virgin.
[00:59:32.720] They they saw a disc
[00:59:35.920] uh silver thing between them and the
[00:59:39.040] sun.
[00:59:41.520] Um, and uh everything dried up. There
[00:59:46.000] had it had been raining and everything
[00:59:48.079] dried up very quickly. uh which was
[00:59:51.839] surprising and the the social
[00:59:55.520] environment was was remarkable was
[00:59:59.040] really remarkable. Um
[01:00:02.640] it it started by three shepherds
[01:00:06.799] uh seeing just a ball of light and uh
[01:00:13.200] then messages coming from an entity in
[01:00:17.200] that ball of light
[01:00:20.400] primarily to one of them Lucia who was
[01:00:24.319] these were kids I mean they were 10 12
[01:00:28.000] 13
[01:00:29.680] uh just guarding the, you know, sheep.
[01:00:34.480] Uh, it's a area with fairly poor
[01:00:38.400] vegetation, but they they do have
[01:00:40.880] agriculture and and and sheep and goats.
[01:00:46.640] Uh, that's the setting where it took
[01:00:49.040] place. Um
[01:00:51.520] I I went there uh with my wife and uh
[01:00:56.799] saw the basilica that has been built
[01:00:59.839] there and also saw the you know the the
[01:01:04.079] area that really hasn't changed very
[01:01:06.480] much in terms of the vegetation and so
[01:01:08.640] on. Um and by coincidence it was also a
[01:01:13.680] day where it was there was alternate
[01:01:16.640] rain and and sunshine.
[01:01:19.599] Um
[01:01:21.599] the
[01:01:24.880] the second so first uh they they they
[01:01:28.799] saw this and then they they had a number
[01:01:31.119] of meetings every month on the same day
[01:01:34.720] of the month.
[01:01:36.640] So uh but some months are 30 days, some
[01:01:40.319] are 31 days and well it was always the
[01:01:44.799] same day. So you know whatever that
[01:01:47.920] phenomenon is, it has the same calendar
[01:01:50.319] we do
[01:01:54.240] which is again one of those things you
[01:01:57.680] hit you know
[01:01:59.920] why would that be
[01:02:02.240] um which may of course make people
[01:02:04.319] suspicious of the authorities. So uh it
[01:02:08.240] built up it came to a point where more
[01:02:11.119] and more people were going there and the
[01:02:13.040] authorities were concerned because
[01:02:16.000] people say well Portugal you know that
[01:02:18.400] this is a super Catholic country uh they
[01:02:22.640] believe in all those miracles. Well the
[01:02:25.040] government in in Portugal at the time in
[01:02:27.599] 1917 was socialist. They were not
[01:02:31.599] believers. They were not Christians.
[01:02:34.240] they were they they were rather with you
[01:02:38.400] know more the the leninist
[01:02:41.599] you know current in all of Europe and so
[01:02:44.799] on. Uh
[01:02:47.280] they of course 1917 is the time of the
[01:02:50.480] Russian revolution.
[01:02:52.799] So you have that coincidence of
[01:02:54.960] different things. They tried to prevent
[01:02:58.640] people from going back to the place and
[01:03:02.079] that didn't work. that at the last
[01:03:05.200] predicted,
[01:03:07.200] you know, operation,
[01:03:09.359] uh, there were 70,000 people coming from
[01:03:13.040] all over Portugal with, you know, a a
[01:03:16.960] donkey and a cart carrying food and so
[01:03:20.480] on. So, for the travel and and uh, you
[01:03:23.599] know, entire families and they were
[01:03:25.599] there and that's what the photographs
[01:03:27.680] show. They show this large crowd at the
[01:03:30.799] site and then at the indicated time the
[01:03:34.960] sun was covered by a a disc you could
[01:03:39.920] look at without being blinded, a silver
[01:03:44.400] disc. And then uh they were rotating
[01:03:47.760] beams of color
[01:03:50.799] around around that.
[01:03:53.680] There were I I have here you know the
[01:03:57.440] the books uh behind me and in front of
[01:04:00.240] me I have 10 books about fatim were
[01:04:03.599] mostly written by um experts hired by
[01:04:07.760] the church or by uh uh churchmen who
[01:04:12.240] were there who had interviewed the
[01:04:14.240] people. Um
[01:04:18.160] there were also uh non-believers. There
[01:04:21.520] were two scientists there who described
[01:04:24.160] what they saw as everybody was was
[01:04:27.760] kneeling, you know, around praying
[01:04:30.079] around them when the these beams were
[01:04:33.520] going. They described it as cimated
[01:04:37.839] beams
[01:04:39.839] uh which is a you know a perfect
[01:04:43.039] physical description of it in physics.
[01:04:46.400] So th those were again this is in the
[01:04:49.359] language of you know the physics
[01:04:52.400] professor
[01:04:54.000] uh so they were not believers they were
[01:04:56.960] just describing an actual phenomena
[01:05:00.160] there there is testimony from somebody
[01:05:02.720] who was not interested in miracles he
[01:05:05.839] was working in the fields couple of
[01:05:08.000] miles away saw the sun was still in the
[01:05:11.839] sky and he saw a disc between the sun
[01:05:16.079] and the crowd and he testified to that
[01:05:19.280] extent. Unfortunately, there were no
[01:05:21.760] photographs in those days. It would have
[01:05:23.680] been very very hard to have a camera
[01:05:26.480] that could capture that. There are
[01:05:28.960] photographs of the crowd but not of the
[01:05:31.920] phenomenon itself unfortunately.
[01:05:34.640] So, um I professor Miss who is a
[01:05:38.960] physicist
[01:05:40.480] and a euphologist from Belgium. I I've
[01:05:43.680] worked with him over the years. Uh we
[01:05:47.599] and we disagreed about Fatima and he
[01:05:50.319] said that Fatima was an after effect in
[01:05:54.079] the eyes of people from staring at the
[01:05:57.119] sun because of the atmosphere being so
[01:06:00.480] thin. Well, when I was there, it had
[01:06:04.160] just been raining. There was a lot of
[01:06:06.720] water vapor in the atmosphere. I was
[01:06:08.559] there with my wife and I stared at the
[01:06:11.520] sun a little bit too long and I didn't
[01:06:15.359] have, you know, rotating beams, but I I
[01:06:19.599] obviously saw colors and so on. I mean,
[01:06:21.839] obviously it uh, you know, saturated my
[01:06:24.880] my retina.
[01:06:26.880] Uh so I I I I didn't stare at it
[01:06:30.160] obviously but I could understand that
[01:06:34.079] you know the the atmosphere was very
[01:06:36.160] special very thin very saturated
[01:06:40.799] and uh it could have done that.
[01:06:44.559] So um I don't know where I stand about
[01:06:48.799] Fatima but I
[01:06:52.640] you know I I I got more books
[01:06:57.599] And uh there is a book that was written
[01:07:00.240] about the miracle of 1915.
[01:07:04.000] Two years before,
[01:07:06.079] two years before, three shepherds in the
[01:07:09.520] same area.
[01:07:12.079] Um
[01:07:14.079] in the same conditions, including one of
[01:07:18.079] those who were at Fatima
[01:07:21.200] um in two years later.
[01:07:24.720] um saw a globe of light, not the sun,
[01:07:29.359] the globe of light that came to the
[01:07:32.240] prairie to the to the field and out of
[01:07:36.559] that globe of light stepped a
[01:07:41.359] a human
[01:07:44.319] uh angel. They perceived it as an angel.
[01:07:48.960] gave them the feeling that he was an
[01:07:51.520] angel. And he taught them a prayer. And
[01:07:55.200] they he said they should keep praying
[01:07:58.640] that particular prayer. And they uh when
[01:08:02.960] it rained, they would go into a cave
[01:08:05.760] that was there. Of course, the sheep
[01:08:08.400] didn't care. Uh and they, you know, they
[01:08:11.839] wouldn't lose them. And they went into
[01:08:14.160] that cave and they were praying and
[01:08:15.920] praying and going into sort of the
[01:08:18.560] second state
[01:08:21.279] and they reported that and you know it
[01:08:25.120] was dismissed and there were no other
[01:08:27.040] witnesses and it
[01:08:30.319] find interesting because very often in
[01:08:33.679] those in prominent UFO cases what you
[01:08:36.960] have to do is ask what happened before.
[01:08:40.560] Well, two years before the miracle at
[01:08:43.600] Fatima, there was this operation
[01:08:47.279] of this
[01:08:49.120] being uh of this teacher who came out of
[01:08:54.239] essentially uh uh you know, a globe of
[01:08:58.000] lights.
[01:09:00.159] Well, you know, we're getting
[01:09:03.440] reports now about globes of light moving
[01:09:06.080] around
[01:09:07.759] orbs.
[01:09:09.759] Now we call them orbs. So we have a new
[01:09:12.080] word for that.
[01:09:14.480] Uh in those days it was just a globe of
[01:09:17.359] light, you know, up to 2 m in diameter.
[01:09:22.719] Well, you know, that's a complex series
[01:09:26.560] of of things.
[01:09:29.040] Um, of course, the impact of Fatima
[01:09:33.600] like the impact of the miracles in
[01:09:35.920] Mexico and so on
[01:09:38.960] has been enormous.
[01:09:42.080] So, and it's in many ways for a
[01:09:45.600] scientist,
[01:09:47.120] you know, there isn't much more that you
[01:09:49.040] can do. Uh but the the the impact on
[01:09:55.520] humanity has been
[01:09:58.239] has been you know important.
[01:10:02.480] The impact on belief uh the year again
[01:10:06.080] was a year of the communist revolution
[01:10:08.640] in Russia.
[01:10:10.560] Uh the
[01:10:12.800] uh Maria uh thought that she had
[01:10:16.880] communicated
[01:10:19.199] she had heard communication from the
[01:10:21.920] virgin. The virgin appeared to her not
[01:10:26.000] to her cousins who were with her.
[01:10:30.960] um who saw the globe
[01:10:35.760] uh and I think one of them saw the lady
[01:10:39.280] but didn't hear the message.
[01:10:42.320] One of the messages was that Russia
[01:10:44.640] would be converted. Okay. again was 1917
[01:10:49.520] in a country with a socialist government
[01:10:53.280] that had forbidden people from coming
[01:10:56.320] there to see the alleged miracle and
[01:11:00.400] they couldn't stop, you know, 80,000
[01:11:03.040] people. So,
[01:11:07.280] you know, that's part of our history.
[01:11:09.040] It's it's part of UFO history. We can't
[01:11:13.440] just, you know, forget it. I mean that
[01:11:16.719] kind of thing is is important. The the
[01:11:20.159] thing that
[01:11:21.920] you know that movie that was made about
[01:11:24.400] the case in Argentina is extraordinary
[01:11:28.640] because he
[01:11:30.560] you know he started u making a movie
[01:11:34.719] about local traditions local beliefs of
[01:11:37.679] the Indians
[01:11:39.600] and um this funny story about the UFO
[01:11:44.560] and I told him it's not a funny story at
[01:11:48.000] Oh, and it's a complex story and it's
[01:11:52.159] relevant, but um you know, we they
[01:11:55.520] wanted to come interview me in San
[01:11:57.600] Francisco. And I said, well, for the
[01:12:00.159] same price, I I can go to Buenosis. I
[01:12:04.719] still speak a little Spanish and if you
[01:12:07.440] give me time, I'll relearn enough
[01:12:09.199] Spanish to talk to the witness directly.
[01:12:12.560] and uh you know he changed the the
[01:12:17.120] thrust of the of the movie u and u I
[01:12:22.480] think he's captured exactly what the
[01:12:25.199] problem is and the
[01:12:29.600] the the the message from the local
[01:12:32.719] people um is uh is what has touched me
[01:12:37.840] the most you know that we misunderstand
[01:12:40.960] all of that we really misunderstand all
[01:12:44.000] of it by immediately translating it as a
[01:12:48.000] threat and uh
[01:12:52.239] I think there are cases where people
[01:12:55.040] have been injured
[01:12:57.280] there is a potential that it could be a
[01:12:59.520] threat there is radiation from it I mean
[01:13:02.560] that's well recognized in that that last
[01:13:06.239] latest case I published
[01:13:09.679] you know with with Dr. Nolan and with uh
[01:13:12.480] with the group the
[01:13:17.840] maybe they don't care
[01:13:21.040] we don't know what they are doing I
[01:13:23.520] think the the other cases that I'm
[01:13:25.440] looking at that are the very special
[01:13:27.840] cases where
[01:13:30.719] you you will notice that that case in
[01:13:34.400] from uh 1966 or 67 the skeptics have not
[01:13:40.000] attacked
[01:13:41.040] you know they have not
[01:13:43.360] um they have not attacked me on on that
[01:13:47.360] basis because they know better. This is
[01:13:49.920] a case that has gone through the academy
[01:13:52.400] of sciences. Okay. After study by Dr.
[01:13:55.760] Condan
[01:13:57.360] who is regarded as someone who dismissed
[01:14:00.320] UFOs.
[01:14:02.159] >> Okay. So you you get into the deep
[01:14:05.600] stuff, you know, when you touch those
[01:14:07.520] cases and they're complex, but if you if
[01:14:11.520] you can array the the right tools and
[01:14:15.280] and the right science around it, you can
[01:14:18.400] get to the truth. And that's what um you
[01:14:21.280] know, we've done with uh with Trinity.
[01:14:24.000] Um and um I think that that story is not
[01:14:29.120] over.
[01:14:31.760] Let me try this again about the idea of
[01:14:33.760] disclosure. Lome the character in in
[01:14:37.440] close encounters based on your life
[01:14:39.920] arranges and and coordinates this
[01:14:42.159] meeting between humans and nonhumans and
[01:14:45.280] it's the start of a beautiful
[01:14:46.560] friendship. We hope there's exchanges
[01:14:48.239] there. If that happened today in real
[01:14:50.880] life, we would not be told. Your friend
[01:14:54.560] uh Dr. Hal Putoff, our mutual friend,
[01:14:56.960] has admitted in a in a film that
[01:14:59.199] recently came out and in public
[01:15:00.800] presentations that he was part of a
[01:15:03.360] brain trust during the first Bush
[01:15:05.920] administration, the dad, not the son,
[01:15:08.239] where they all got together, these
[01:15:09.760] brainiacs and experts. They looked at
[01:15:12.000] all the evidence about the effects of
[01:15:14.640] disclosure, and at the end of it, even
[01:15:16.960] somebody like Hal said, "I don't think
[01:15:18.960] it's a good idea. Uh, we we shouldn't do
[01:15:21.679] it." Well, last time you and I spoke,
[01:15:24.480] Jock, back in April, I asked you the
[01:15:27.040] question about it, and you said we need
[01:15:29.440] to have some discussion before we just
[01:15:31.199] disclose. We need to consider the
[01:15:33.440] potential impact. You know what the
[01:15:35.760] reaction was? People wanted to scalp me
[01:15:39.040] and probably do worse to you. Have you
[01:15:41.600] thought about disclosure, how it could
[01:15:44.880] happen, and how far we should go? Do you
[01:15:47.679] believe as Hal and his colleagues did
[01:15:50.320] that it probably could be disastrous and
[01:15:52.719] have terrible effects
[01:15:59.199] we have to take um well that
[01:16:04.159] let me go back a little bit. I I knew
[01:16:06.640] about that um meeting when it when it
[01:16:09.760] happened in in in Washington. It it
[01:16:13.199] wasn't a a secret meeting. It was just
[01:16:17.360] uh you know one of those meetings that
[01:16:20.640] are done for
[01:16:23.040] uh essentially for back fill of of
[01:16:26.000] information and and testing of ideas so
[01:16:29.679] on. So it it happens frequently in
[01:16:32.480] futures research you know you you
[01:16:34.719] simulate a situation. We did that when I
[01:16:37.679] was at the Institute for the Future. We
[01:16:39.679] would get experts together frequently,
[01:16:42.480] you know, and present them with a a
[01:16:46.560] future technology and and see what what
[01:16:51.199] their reaction might be. All simulated
[01:16:53.679] future technology. Uh we did that with
[01:16:56.400] video conferencing a long time ago and
[01:16:59.679] we've published all that. And there I I
[01:17:05.520] have some problems with that meeting
[01:17:07.440] because
[01:17:09.120] yes that's a logical conclusion and I
[01:17:12.000] understand I had other friends in that
[01:17:14.239] meeting and they say the same thing that
[01:17:16.880] that Al says uh and they they agree with
[01:17:20.960] the conclusion.
[01:17:24.000] I've done
[01:17:26.480] um studies of crisis um
[01:17:32.640] in um in other areas and reactions to
[01:17:36.880] crisis. Um, you know, my I had a little
[01:17:41.600] computer company for a while and was
[01:17:44.719] asked to uh to testify about, you know,
[01:17:49.199] what happens during uh nuclear
[01:17:52.480] industrial nuclear crisis like three
[01:17:55.360] mile island and how we can mitigate
[01:17:57.840] those those crisis. Well, my little
[01:18:01.360] company was running.
[01:18:03.840] It wasn't secret, but it wasn't
[01:18:05.920] advertised. But we were funded by the
[01:18:08.719] nuclear u industry
[01:18:12.800] u the civilian nuclear industry for
[01:18:15.520] three years to manage nuclear crisis.
[01:18:20.080] Now three mile island was known to the
[01:18:23.360] public. It was on TV and so on uh
[01:18:26.239] because it wasn't contained within the
[01:18:28.880] company. There were people in other
[01:18:31.760] companies who had experienced the same
[01:18:35.040] failure and they knew how to fix it
[01:18:38.480] except that they didn't have access to
[01:18:40.719] that particular company. There are 200
[01:18:43.199] companies in the US running some sort of
[01:18:46.000] nuclear uh nuclear plant or nuclear
[01:18:49.120] applications to you know electrical
[01:18:52.239] current
[01:18:53.760] and uh to generate electrical current.
[01:18:57.440] So
[01:18:59.120] uh they didn't communicate and as a
[01:19:01.760] result of three mile island the industry
[01:19:03.600] got together and said we need to
[01:19:05.840] establish
[01:19:07.760] a link and we had at the time uh we were
[01:19:11.679] pioneers in in uh computer conferencing
[01:19:14.960] and we had a system uh to to link
[01:19:18.400] together up to 54 online simultaneously
[01:19:23.040] 54
[01:19:24.560] u
[01:19:26.159] individuals or groups. So, um they
[01:19:29.600] funded us for three years. We had a
[01:19:31.760] dedicated computer that did nothing but
[01:19:34.000] that. And we solved and extinguished a
[01:19:40.320] number of alerts that never became known
[01:19:44.880] to the press or the public because there
[01:19:47.120] was a simple way to fix it or there was
[01:19:50.320] a technical way to fix it that
[01:19:54.560] >> prevented a crisis.
[01:19:56.800] after an incident or an accident. Okay,
[01:20:01.199] the accident would be reported. The
[01:20:03.679] incident could be solved technically,
[01:20:06.719] you know, by people knowing the
[01:20:08.400] information. They knew the information
[01:20:10.640] through our computer. So, we we ran that
[01:20:14.400] that thing for three years and then we
[01:20:16.400] sold it to a larger company that's still
[01:20:19.520] running it.
[01:20:21.120] Uh we had five countries by the way
[01:20:24.239] linked into this
[01:20:27.040] uh because they couldn't afford the
[01:20:29.679] industry couldn't afford another three
[01:20:31.600] mile island you know it would have
[01:20:33.520] stopped nuclear power as an industry
[01:20:37.440] um because it it's scary so I I had the
[01:20:41.520] experience of of that the
[01:20:46.080] what does it take to
[01:20:48.719] uh present that to the public. It takes
[01:20:52.159] again the key the coin of the realm is
[01:20:57.040] trust.
[01:20:58.640] Um,
[01:21:00.159] you know, I'm old enough to remember the
[01:21:02.080] end of World War II. I was born at the
[01:21:04.400] beginning of World War II. I don't
[01:21:06.480] remember the beginning. I remember the
[01:21:09.120] end. I remember the bombing. I remember
[01:21:12.080] the invasion of France.
[01:21:14.719] The reason France stayed together
[01:21:18.400] is that uh under the bombing, under the
[01:21:22.320] invasion, under all of that, under the
[01:21:25.360] crimes
[01:21:27.040] was the goal.
[01:21:29.360] The Gaul had uh moved to London and
[01:21:33.760] started the resistance and made a link
[01:21:36.400] with the resistance.
[01:21:39.040] uh and
[01:21:40.960] uh there was
[01:21:44.400] trust. He was able to build trust among
[01:21:49.840] everybody from you know the mostly he
[01:21:54.639] was on the right. He was accused of
[01:21:57.840] being on the extreme right but he had
[01:22:00.719] the communist with him. Yeah, the
[01:22:02.639] communist maki, you know, the the the
[01:22:05.920] the resistance itself, in the factories,
[01:22:09.840] in the trains, in the, you know, in the
[01:22:12.960] mines, so on with with him and he had
[01:22:17.120] the admin, much of the administration
[01:22:19.600] that was still in place and he had the
[01:22:22.400] army and the navy and and and could
[01:22:25.920] present something credible to Eisenhower
[01:22:29.199] when it came time for the invasion.
[01:22:31.840] Now um that's in in many crisis in
[01:22:37.120] industrial crisis which I've lived
[01:22:40.239] through as you know as an investor I
[01:22:42.960] mean every every startup has a series of
[01:22:46.159] crisis you know uh even Google and Apple
[01:22:49.440] I mean look at Apple uh what happened
[01:22:52.560] when Apple was essentially out of
[01:22:54.560] business and they had no CEO well you
[01:22:58.080] know they they brought back their
[01:23:01.600] initial CEO who had been dismissed by
[01:23:05.280] the board of Apple 10 years before.
[01:23:07.679] Okay. And um but by then he had learned
[01:23:12.400] something and he had the trust of the
[01:23:14.560] remaining people and he rebuilt Apple
[01:23:17.600] into what it is today which is you know
[01:23:21.040] admittedly the leading you know um
[01:23:25.679] personal computer company in the world.
[01:23:27.920] So um
[01:23:30.880] the
[01:23:32.560] that's what it takes is leadership
[01:23:36.000] uh the under and that's a question that
[01:23:40.080] they didn't ask at that uh
[01:23:43.440] at that test you know that uh my friends
[01:23:47.120] attended in in Washington. It it all
[01:23:50.800] depends if you if you trust your leader
[01:23:54.080] whether that's in war or in business.
[01:23:57.679] uh or in a situation where a desperate
[01:24:01.360] situation like France and it was invaded
[01:24:04.800] became part of Germany essentially
[01:24:07.600] uh the the trust in the leader you know
[01:24:12.000] is the is the key factor.
[01:24:15.679] So the question is is arising with UFOs
[01:24:19.199] you know uh is uh
[01:24:23.520] at the time when it becomes obvious that
[01:24:27.920] that there phenomenon is here is there
[01:24:32.159] going to be a leader who can reassure
[01:24:36.159] the population and the scientific
[01:24:38.560] community which right now is silent it's
[01:24:41.840] absent you know it's not I mean In spite
[01:24:45.440] of all the all the work that Dr. Nolan
[01:24:48.000] is doing that I've done that Dr. Hine
[01:24:50.639] neck the you know the the professors are
[01:24:53.840] not following us you know they are
[01:24:56.400] staying in on their campus doing their
[01:24:59.199] research
[01:25:00.719] uh and they don't trust
[01:25:04.080] the uh the UFO
[01:25:07.840] medium you know the UFO they don't trust
[01:25:10.719] what they see on TV and and they have
[01:25:13.840] good reasons not to trust it because
[01:25:16.719] again it all comes from you know liquid
[01:25:20.320] thing, classified project. Somebody
[01:25:22.960] says, "Oh, I was part of a classified
[01:25:25.360] project that did this and that." Well,
[01:25:27.920] yeah. So, they built a gadget that can,
[01:25:32.000] you know, uh, outperform a Russian
[01:25:35.199] rocket. Well, fine. I'm I'm glad we have
[01:25:37.920] that technology and I don't need to know
[01:25:40.560] how it works. But that's not what that
[01:25:43.280] farmer told me. You know that farmer
[01:25:46.560] told me or in one particular case some
[01:25:50.000] very sophisticated people, professionals
[01:25:53.760] who saw that little light. A little
[01:25:56.639] light got larger and then uh out of it
[01:26:01.679] came a craft the s the size of my
[01:26:05.520] apartment and uh it left imprints on the
[01:26:09.760] ground.
[01:26:11.360] And someone I know went there the next
[01:26:14.159] morning when he heard that uh through
[01:26:18.159] the police and he went there with pastor
[01:26:20.960] of Paris and he took an imprint of the
[01:26:24.880] impact of the leg of the craft and uh we
[01:26:29.600] have that
[01:26:31.360] and it's it's about this big. Okay. and
[01:26:35.840] this high and it's round and it's
[01:26:39.199] perfectly round on top. You know, that's
[01:26:41.920] the mold from the the thing before the
[01:26:45.600] the dirt, you know, and at that point
[01:26:48.800] only the the the cops had the Jearmms
[01:26:52.000] had access to it and they they they
[01:26:54.800] secured the area. It's an area that's
[01:26:57.679] pretty far away anyway. I mean pretty uh
[01:27:00.880] it wouldn't be trampled by but he was
[01:27:03.679] there that very morning and he took that
[01:27:06.880] that task. Okay, that's real.
[01:27:12.560] That's something we can study.
[01:27:15.840] Um there there are of course in the cast
[01:27:20.560] there are leaves of grass that are stuck
[01:27:25.040] to it. Well, you know,
[01:27:29.600] why don't we probe those leaves of grass
[01:27:33.360] to see? I know it's been many years, but
[01:27:37.280] we maybe we can still do some some good
[01:27:40.159] with that. And there were four imprints
[01:27:43.280] like that. You know, the craft was about
[01:27:46.080] 45 ft in diameter.
[01:27:49.600] What was it doing there? And there was
[01:27:54.080] so uh I'm uh those are the cases I
[01:27:58.560] continue to work with and really I don't
[01:28:01.440] need I I don't need anybody. I mean I
[01:28:04.480] can I can find the labs. I can find
[01:28:08.719] people to you know help me interview the
[01:28:12.000] witnesses. I know the witnesses. I I
[01:28:15.120] have interviewed some of them already.
[01:28:17.760] And uh uh you know I can go back and do
[01:28:22.480] do some more.
[01:28:24.080] >> You you showed me a a case you showed me
[01:28:26.159] a case this morning uh something you
[01:28:28.320] wanted to talk about. And when you
[01:28:29.600] showed me the image, it uh reminded me
[01:28:32.560] of a a military image that George and I
[01:28:35.600] obtained and released to the public. Can
[01:28:37.920] you show me or show our audience that
[01:28:40.400] image and and why that case is
[01:28:42.239] important? Can you show that to me right
[01:28:43.840] now?
[01:28:44.880] Um, I' I'd rather keep it fairly quiet
[01:28:47.760] because I don't want any interference
[01:28:50.560] with it, you know. So, that
[01:28:54.719] >> Oh, no. I I'm talking about the photo
[01:28:56.639] that you said you wanted to talk about.
[01:28:58.560] >> Yes. Um,
[01:29:02.000] that's
[01:29:03.600] that's also an interesting case because
[01:29:07.040] it happened in France in broad daylight.
[01:29:12.239] um
[01:29:14.239] with um a a woman who was uh driving
[01:29:19.199] from from her home to the family home
[01:29:23.440] with two uh two girls in their early
[01:29:28.800] teens in the back of the car. The car
[01:29:32.239] had a uh the roof was open, but there
[01:29:36.320] was a glass uh glass stop uh that was
[01:29:41.120] not open. So they were looking at the
[01:29:43.679] sky through the through the glass and
[01:29:47.679] the ahead of the car
[01:29:50.560] they saw an object coming towards them
[01:29:55.600] that looked like that looked like this.
[01:29:58.320] It was essentially a starshaped
[01:30:02.960] uh today we would call it a drone.
[01:30:06.560] Uh it uh it was
[01:30:11.120] it was strange because it seemed to be
[01:30:13.600] flying but it stayed in the same
[01:30:17.040] position with respect to the car.
[01:30:20.400] And they uh the woman had this old
[01:30:26.639] camera and you can see the sky. Uh there
[01:30:31.360] is a re there is a spot here that could
[01:30:36.159] be the shadow and the the photograph is
[01:30:39.920] not good enough but we'll work we
[01:30:42.560] continue to work on it and um and again
[01:30:47.679] u Dr. Nolan has has looked at this also
[01:30:51.440] and we we're trying to work with the
[01:30:54.320] photograph to enhance it. Uh
[01:30:58.239] if it's a shadow, it's interesting
[01:31:00.159] because we we know the exact time. We
[01:31:03.199] know the exact place. The woman is a
[01:31:06.239] professional woman. She's a marketing
[01:31:08.239] executive. She's worked in the US. She's
[01:31:11.440] French. Uh she works with a company. Um
[01:31:15.840] the uh that's her camera, but she was
[01:31:19.440] driving so she gave the camera to the
[01:31:22.159] girls on the back seat and and one of
[01:31:24.880] the girls took that picture through this
[01:31:27.600] glass. So it's not the ideal scientific
[01:31:31.440] conditions to take a photograph, but uh
[01:31:35.120] but we have the photograph.
[01:31:37.280] >> That's amazing. It just it Yeah. What
[01:31:39.679] year was that?
[01:31:41.520] So this was about seven years ago and
[01:31:45.440] you know way before the all the stories
[01:31:48.080] about drones and so on. So I said can
[01:31:52.000] you know uh you should report it to the
[01:31:54.320] French uh UFO project that French
[01:31:58.560] research organization. And she said she
[01:32:01.120] wanted nothing to do with you know with
[01:32:04.400] the officials because again she
[01:32:08.639] many people now in the US and in France
[01:32:12.719] and in other countries have gotten it
[01:32:15.840] that you see something you don't report
[01:32:18.000] it.
[01:32:18.639] >> Yeah. Right. you may report it to
[01:32:21.440] George, you know, to you uh or to me if
[01:32:24.960] if they they're in contact with me. I
[01:32:27.600] get those reports. They don't go any
[01:32:30.400] further anymore because the those people
[01:32:34.400] don't want to be known in the community
[01:32:37.440] as crazy. They don't want to be on TV.
[01:32:41.760] They don't they really don't want to be
[01:32:45.040] ridiculed. they don't want to have to
[01:32:47.120] testify to the police and so on. Uh they
[01:32:52.080] may report it anonymously or or maybe
[01:32:55.760] not um maybe openly to a a group that
[01:33:01.520] they trust to a UFO local UFO group and
[01:33:05.679] they will discuss it like they discussed
[01:33:07.920] it with me. I mean they she she wrote to
[01:33:12.480] me about this
[01:33:14.400] um because she had read my books but
[01:33:19.040] again
[01:33:19.520] >> that's amazing.
[01:33:21.280] >> A lot of people like us we we get a lot
[01:33:23.199] of the information and and it doesn't go
[01:33:25.520] to places where we think it should.
[01:33:27.120] George you remember this. It looks so
[01:33:29.360] similar to the one the military footage.
[01:33:32.400] This is a thermal image. So it's showing
[01:33:34.320] the heat signature. But when Jacques
[01:33:36.560] showed me that I had heard about the
[01:33:38.320] case, it's just amazing that there's
[01:33:40.560] still so much reporting going on, but
[01:33:42.480] it's not going to a central location
[01:33:45.120] like like it would be useful, you know,
[01:33:47.440] for scientific data. Anyway, George,
[01:33:49.840] what's your next question?
[01:33:52.560] >> Well, I'm I'm I I go back to where we
[01:33:55.840] started, whether Jacques is hopeful.
[01:33:57.520] Now, you've seen the peaks and valleys
[01:34:00.080] of public interest over the years, and
[01:34:03.040] you know, the public is really excited.
[01:34:04.800] there's a case that grabs their
[01:34:06.639] attention. Um they demand answers from
[01:34:09.520] the government, Congress reacts, has
[01:34:11.679] hearings, there are commissions and
[01:34:13.920] studies and then it all goes away. Um is
[01:34:17.600] there a model that you would you would
[01:34:20.400] recommend that could be used to push the
[01:34:23.199] topic forward? Jacques, I don't know if
[01:34:25.360] you know it, but we're coming up on the
[01:34:26.880] 30th anniversary of NIDS. The fir very
[01:34:29.600] first meeting of the science advisory
[01:34:31.199] board is two weeks from the time when we
[01:34:33.520] are talking here today. Seems like NIDS
[01:34:36.000] was was a wonderful model and bass was a
[01:34:39.920] wonderful model but the fact that it had
[01:34:42.320] government money in in bass put
[01:34:44.800] limitations on where it could go. You
[01:34:46.480] had great freedom to follow the evidence
[01:34:48.719] where it led but you're not allowed to
[01:34:51.040] share that information. Is there a model
[01:34:53.440] that you would recommend for how to move
[01:34:56.320] forward and finally get some solid
[01:34:58.639] answers?
[01:34:59.840] >> Um [snorts]
[01:35:01.440] yes. Uh you know what you're describing
[01:35:04.239] is the public is chasing ambulances. Uh
[01:35:08.159] people will say, "Oh yeah, you know, I I
[01:35:11.199] heard of that case, but there was a new
[01:35:13.679] case just this morning on TV. Somebody
[01:35:16.320] took a picture at night of a light." And
[01:35:19.840] I say, well, you know, where was it? Oh,
[01:35:22.400] well, we believe it was in Africa
[01:35:24.400] somewhere. Well, what time was it? You
[01:35:26.800] know, what direction was it? That does
[01:35:29.600] the picture show, you know, other
[01:35:33.040] things, planets, or you know, oh no, it
[01:35:36.400] it's just a light in in the sky, you
[01:35:39.840] know. I mean, there is nothing you can
[01:35:41.760] do with that. you you
[01:35:44.320] at the same time we have cases that are
[01:35:47.440] documented but you know when when I said
[01:35:51.120] uh even with my my colleagues at at saw
[01:35:54.960] when I said uh you know I I want the the
[01:35:59.360] title of my talk should be 1966
[01:36:03.840] Hansville
[01:36:05.760] that's the title of my call it's not you
[01:36:08.800] know the sensational thing that was in
[01:36:11.199] the common republic
[01:36:12.560] It's not. It's 196. And and I said,
[01:36:15.600] people will say, who cares about 1966?
[01:36:19.440] Well, okay. Uh what about the wood that
[01:36:23.280] I have that that I, you know, was last
[01:36:26.960] year it was tested, you know, at an
[01:36:29.840] atomic lab in France. Okay. And we we
[01:36:33.440] know there is new information in the
[01:36:35.360] wood from that tree. Okay. That we're
[01:36:37.840] going to continue working with. you know
[01:36:40.400] those uh the same thing in um in
[01:36:44.639] medicine you know people chase
[01:36:46.560] ambulances they oh there was a new case
[01:36:49.920] of you know COVID or something well yeah
[01:36:53.360] but if you if you talk to Dr. Nolan who
[01:36:56.320] say well COVID is just one of many you
[01:36:59.920] know many things that have developed and
[01:37:02.960] they come and go and there will be more
[01:37:05.760] okay because that type of uh that type
[01:37:10.639] of biological entity is going to keep
[01:37:13.840] evolving and it will reappear in other
[01:37:16.080] things and he's been doing research in
[01:37:18.639] Africa on on other
[01:37:22.239] you know other things that are part of
[01:37:24.080] that family and so So when you talk to
[01:37:26.639] the scientists
[01:37:28.560] they they're not looking at the last
[01:37:30.719] thing that was on TV you know they are
[01:37:33.119] looking at the history of it and you
[01:37:35.440] need that's certainly
[01:37:38.800] no I I think my last responsibility in
[01:37:41.920] this field is to transmit some of that
[01:37:45.679] which is why I wanted to talk about the
[01:37:48.800] 1966
[01:37:50.639] Hanesville case you know and really put
[01:37:53.360] it on you
[01:37:55.199] re reawaken it from its ashes and uh and
[01:38:01.040] and bring it bring it forward. I think
[01:38:03.679] we people need to get back into those
[01:38:06.719] books and you know uh and and look at
[01:38:10.800] the old the old data.
[01:38:15.280] >> Should there be something like bass as a
[01:38:17.679] way to move forward but with private
[01:38:19.520] money not government money so that there
[01:38:21.440] are no strings attached? Well, um, BAS
[01:38:25.600] was painful.
[01:38:28.000] Uh, and we didn't expect that because
[01:38:30.400] the needs experience,
[01:38:32.800] uh,
[01:38:34.320] you know, was essentially the most
[01:38:37.360] outstanding team I've ever worked with
[01:38:40.320] in in science. I mean, you know,
[01:38:46.000] of course, Cole com Keller and the whole
[01:38:49.119] team and, uh, Dr. Putoff and so on. uh
[01:38:52.800] and uh Dr. Green uh all of us uh you
[01:38:58.719] know had specialties but we all brought
[01:39:01.840] something to the to to to the meeting.
[01:39:08.159] uh when it became bus all of us not only
[01:39:12.960] uh you know had that knowledge but and
[01:39:15.600] background from meds but we had top
[01:39:18.560] secret clearances you know with a few
[01:39:20.719] things attached to it so at that point
[01:39:24.960] you know we couldn't talk to each other
[01:39:26.560] anymore and I mean uh Dr. Green worked
[01:39:30.000] on on my my data warehouse
[01:39:34.159] for two years expanding it in certain
[01:39:37.679] areas. I had consulted him about the
[01:39:40.639] structure that users would want in
[01:39:43.679] different disciplines and I implemented
[01:39:47.360] it based on the structure that the
[01:39:50.159] specialist gave me which is what you do
[01:39:53.119] in you know when you were a computer
[01:39:55.119] guy. and uh but then
[01:39:59.760] that there were new cases coming in that
[01:40:02.080] I never knew about that had a different
[01:40:04.239] structure and I never knew about that.
[01:40:07.679] So I couldn't adapt dynamically
[01:40:11.360] the structure as I would have adapted it
[01:40:13.600] if we had been at IBM or AT&T or in any
[01:40:18.159] you know in a open company because there
[01:40:20.639] were barriers and I didn't know about
[01:40:22.719] these cases. In fact, I still don't know
[01:40:25.199] about these cases. So,
[01:40:28.560] um
[01:40:30.159] and and
[01:40:31.840] you know that the the other people
[01:40:33.679] didn't know what I was doing um apart
[01:40:36.880] from apart from that and with other
[01:40:40.159] cases. Um so uh that that structure
[01:40:46.800] again coming back to the beginning is
[01:40:48.960] fine if you're a small group of people
[01:40:51.360] developing a new weapon or a new radar.
[01:40:54.400] You know you all know each other you
[01:40:56.080] know what you're building and that that
[01:40:59.119] information can be contained and you're
[01:41:00.960] all in the same room working on the same
[01:41:03.520] device. This is not it. We need to open
[01:41:07.199] the doors and the windows. I'm uh not
[01:41:10.480] going to be a part of any any new
[01:41:13.119] secret, you know. I'm I'm done with
[01:41:15.119] that. And that comes up with UFO
[01:41:19.840] samples, you know, and it's it's
[01:41:23.199] ridiculous. And I I have samples that
[01:41:27.600] are part of a case that people in other
[01:41:31.360] countries that I could name are keeping
[01:41:34.159] secret. And I don't know what they've
[01:41:36.480] done with their samples from the same
[01:41:39.040] case. So I'm not going to tell them what
[01:41:41.679] I'm doing with my samples or the ones I
[01:41:44.719] gave Dr. Nolan. But it's ridiculous
[01:41:48.480] because we can't make any progress. And
[01:41:51.600] they're stuck with their samples. They
[01:41:54.320] think they are the only ones who have
[01:41:57.360] who know about that case. Now I went to
[01:42:00.719] that place. I spoke to the witness and
[01:42:03.920] the witness was smart enough to give
[01:42:06.800] them he had five pieces of stuff that he
[01:42:11.679] picked up uh when they they came you
[01:42:15.280] know there are government place they
[01:42:17.440] came there and they said we need the the
[01:42:19.600] the thing and of course we'll return it
[01:42:21.840] to you after analysis which is what they
[01:42:24.880] all say no um don't don't believe that
[01:42:29.520] they never do uh they may return
[01:42:33.600] something but they've taken the good
[01:42:35.760] stuff in the meantime and they may
[01:42:38.320] return something to you that has nothing
[01:42:40.480] to do and you know that happened in
[01:42:43.199] Sakoro you know in that that case u
[01:42:48.480] where the the actual stuff that was was
[01:42:51.840] picked up by Dr. Stanford and Dr. Heck
[01:42:55.440] was never returned to them and they were
[01:42:57.440] told, you know, just a fairy story about
[01:43:01.679] what what was found there that it was
[01:43:03.520] silica. Well, it wasn't silica and uh
[01:43:07.520] they they fooled everybody to get it to
[01:43:10.800] a secret lab and it's, you know,
[01:43:14.320] presumably still there. Uh Dr. Stanford
[01:43:17.360] died in the meantime and you know, we
[01:43:20.000] don't know where the actual samples are.
[01:43:22.320] We'll never get them. So fine. Uh but
[01:43:26.639] the witness kept the number five sample
[01:43:31.840] and I was offered the number five sample
[01:43:35.199] and uh which was you know which was
[01:43:38.239] about this this big and I said I don't
[01:43:42.480] need all that because Dr. Nolan is
[01:43:45.600] looking at very small things. So I just
[01:43:48.400] need you know a few grams of it. So we
[01:43:50.880] carved out I said keep it. I don't want
[01:43:53.600] responsibility to take anything through
[01:43:56.400] customs. Uh, you know, you keep it. I'm
[01:44:01.119] going to take, you know, a few a few
[01:44:03.760] grams of it. And that's what we have.
[01:44:06.800] Now,
[01:44:09.119] the people back there are surprised that
[01:44:11.679] I'm talking about that case because they
[01:44:14.159] think they have the only samples and
[01:44:16.320] they are secret. Well, too bad. But
[01:44:19.760] they're not alone. Maybe theirs are
[01:44:22.080] secret, but mine mine isn't secret, you
[01:44:25.040] know. So we you run into this kind of
[01:44:28.639] stupid situation. And that's why why
[01:44:31.360] scientists are not going to get
[01:44:32.880] involved, you know, you can't do science
[01:44:35.360] that way. you're not going to get, you
[01:44:37.840] know, your your university, your lab,
[01:44:40.800] your students involved in something and
[01:44:43.520] then at the end of it, you find it's a a
[01:44:46.000] hoax by the DIA or or something to fool
[01:44:50.320] the Russians about something and and the
[01:44:53.119] whole thing was a joke and you know,
[01:44:55.840] you're not going to risk your career,
[01:44:58.000] you know, with that kind of thing. And I
[01:45:00.320] don't blame them.
[01:45:03.920] I've tried to pin you down on this
[01:45:05.760] question for as long as I've known you.
[01:45:08.159] It's about the control system. A theory
[01:45:10.880] that you proposed, a hypothesis you
[01:45:13.040] proposed more than 50 years ago that
[01:45:15.199] there is some sort of a control system
[01:45:17.679] imposed on humanity on Earth from
[01:45:20.960] somewhere else that it limits what we
[01:45:24.080] can do. And whether Earthlings are aware
[01:45:27.040] of it, uh whether they like it or not,
[01:45:30.159] it's there. Is there a way to test that
[01:45:32.960] and and have you have you done so? Well,
[01:45:35.760] that that idea comes from a discussion I
[01:45:39.040] had in France with um with scientists
[01:45:42.800] and with and um because I was showing
[01:45:47.679] them the statistics that I had and as as
[01:45:52.320] you know I've done a lot of computer
[01:45:53.840] work on on this looking at the in at the
[01:45:57.040] inner structure not not the raw data the
[01:46:00.639] the filtered data after you get all the
[01:46:04.000] 90% sent you know delusions, illusions,
[01:46:07.920] clouds, a moon, all that out of it and
[01:46:11.760] you you end up with the hard data. The
[01:46:14.639] hub data follows a a periodicity which
[01:46:19.360] is very strange that that looks like an
[01:46:23.920] induction sequence and some
[01:46:28.239] psychologists looked at it and and said
[01:46:31.440] it looks like a schedule of
[01:46:33.600] reinforcement
[01:46:35.600] and I said what's a schedule of
[01:46:37.440] reinforcement and they sat me down and
[01:46:40.159] got me to read Skinner and the whole
[01:46:42.960] psychology ology, an old thesis about
[01:46:47.199] um about induction of changes in
[01:46:50.800] behavior in animals and in humans.
[01:46:56.000] Uh,
[01:46:58.480] you know, with things that repeat but
[01:47:01.440] don't quite repeat the same way all the
[01:47:04.320] time. And that's what the the inner
[01:47:08.159] structure that's what I was hoping we
[01:47:10.560] would get to with Bash. And that's the
[01:47:13.360] thing that was cut off, you know, and
[01:47:16.400] essentially taken from us with no
[01:47:18.639] explanation before we could get to redo
[01:47:22.560] that. That's the secret. That's a big
[01:47:25.760] secret. Now when I discussed it in
[01:47:29.360] France, I said, well, you know, a a
[01:47:33.280] schedule of reinforcement or a
[01:47:38.239] a a mechanism like that can be natural
[01:47:41.280] or it can be artificial.
[01:47:43.920] Nature presents us with lots of control
[01:47:47.760] systems. You know, in this room has a
[01:47:50.800] control system, you know, that controls
[01:47:53.119] the temperature. If I step out on the
[01:47:55.600] balcony, you know, I'm going to get a
[01:47:58.000] completely different temperature. The
[01:48:00.159] temperature inside here is controlled.
[01:48:02.880] Uh if I wanted to test it, I could light
[01:48:07.600] a fire, you know, warm up the
[01:48:10.639] temperature inside and see if something
[01:48:14.159] controls it and dampens it down. So, I
[01:48:17.040] can do a test of that. Um, of course,
[01:48:20.159] the environment is a a series of control
[01:48:22.800] systems and many people don't believe
[01:48:25.760] that the environment is changing and
[01:48:28.719] there are scientists who for the last 50
[01:48:31.360] years have said yes, the environment is
[01:48:33.920] changing and uh, you know, insects from
[01:48:37.280] Africa now showing up in Paris. You
[01:48:40.320] know, how did they get there from the
[01:48:43.600] from the Sahara? Well, they got they got
[01:48:46.480] there because temperature of France is
[01:48:48.400] going up two degrees in a few years, two
[01:48:51.600] degrees in a few years. Okay, that's a
[01:48:54.080] control system that it's not an evil
[01:48:58.239] group that's doing that. It's just the
[01:49:00.800] planet, okay, is doing that. It's the
[01:49:04.960] environment. So,
[01:49:07.840] you know, UFOs could be from the
[01:49:10.080] environment. There could be plasmas.
[01:49:12.639] Many people say you know there is many
[01:49:16.080] UFOs manifest the way plasmas would be
[01:49:20.000] manifested. So go to a physics lab and
[01:49:24.639] ask the professor, you know, what's a u
[01:49:29.199] uh what's a globe of plasma, you know,
[01:49:32.000] and he'll give you, you know, a bunch of
[01:49:34.080] equations
[01:49:35.679] and you say, well, how come it can last
[01:49:38.639] for 10 minutes? And he doesn't have an
[01:49:42.320] answer to that because it certainly
[01:49:44.080] shouldn't last for 10 minutes according
[01:49:47.119] to our physics. So even that is a
[01:49:50.080] mystery. Okay. So, but the UFOs we're
[01:49:54.080] talking about are not that. I mean, they
[01:49:56.400] are artificial.
[01:49:59.520] We have to believe they are artificial.
[01:50:01.520] And if they show up according to a
[01:50:04.400] schedule of reinforcement in distinct
[01:50:07.520] waves over distinct countries
[01:50:11.520] um then it's an intelligent system and
[01:50:16.000] that's where my sort of control systems
[01:50:19.040] come comes from. Um the the question is
[01:50:24.960] can we interact with it or not? Are we
[01:50:27.600] being trained for something the way a
[01:50:30.719] Skinner reinforcement schedule would
[01:50:34.159] train a mouse or a
[01:50:38.159] you know a man uh to learn something and
[01:50:42.719] and uh one of them said look
[01:50:47.119] look at the university. I mean a a
[01:50:50.000] university is a control system but if
[01:50:53.760] you apply for your PhD
[01:50:56.960] you don't know what you have to do to
[01:51:00.080] come out as a doctor they don't really
[01:51:04.239] give you the steps you know when you in
[01:51:08.320] in the lower classes you have to get
[01:51:10.960] good notes good grades to graduate and
[01:51:13.679] then you graduate not so at the PhD
[01:51:16.400] level many people have gone for PhD
[01:51:19.360] studies and they never got the degree
[01:51:21.840] and they don't know why they didn't get
[01:51:23.600] the degree but there was something in
[01:51:26.719] the process which was not written down
[01:51:30.320] anywhere where they didn't get the
[01:51:32.880] degree so um I I spoke to Jacqu Ber who
[01:51:38.080] had been in a concentration camp he was
[01:51:40.880] he was a French spy he was a French he
[01:51:44.800] he helped build the first scientific
[01:51:47.520] fake uh espionage network against the
[01:51:51.679] Germans, you know, uh with the discovery
[01:51:54.560] of heavy water and where heavy water
[01:51:57.679] came from and everything else. He was
[01:51:59.920] invol involved in that. He was caught.
[01:52:02.560] He was put in a concentration camp. He
[01:52:05.199] was a Jew. He was tortured.
[01:52:08.800] And he said in those concentration
[01:52:13.679] camps.
[01:52:15.280] uh they wanted to know of course what
[01:52:17.119] the French were doing. Uh he didn't tell
[01:52:20.480] them so they kept torturing him which
[01:52:23.360] was their idea of a control system. They
[01:52:27.119] said it was a closed control system and
[01:52:30.320] we think of concentration camps as a
[01:52:32.719] closed control system. And he said we're
[01:52:35.360] wrong. One time in one of his
[01:52:38.239] concentration camps, the uh all of a
[01:52:41.520] sudden the firemen from Munich were
[01:52:45.199] brought there by the Nazi. The firemen
[01:52:48.239] of Munich were not happy and they were
[01:52:50.080] on strike. The Nazi arrested all of them
[01:52:53.679] and moved them to uh the concentration
[01:52:57.199] camp for three weeks. They didn't know
[01:52:59.599] they were going to be released after
[01:53:01.440] three weeks. that they were put in the
[01:53:03.599] same regime as the um inmates of the
[01:53:08.639] concentration camp.
[01:53:10.960] After three weeks, they were no longer
[01:53:12.960] on strike and they were driven back to
[01:53:15.040] Munich.
[01:53:17.280] So he said the concentration camp was
[01:53:19.840] like a university in a way you could
[01:53:22.159] graduate.
[01:53:24.719] But I didn't know that because you know
[01:53:27.920] they were torturing me pretty much every
[01:53:29.920] day.
[01:53:33.040] That's reality. Okay, that's that's
[01:53:35.599] human reality. He fortunately survived.
[01:53:39.440] He escaped uh and uh he went on to be,
[01:53:45.360] you know, a prominent advisor to the go
[01:53:47.840] and and prominent publisher in Paris.
[01:53:53.679] That's, you know, that's a real
[01:53:56.400] experience.
[01:53:58.480] Um
[01:54:01.040] he was in a he said that was a control
[01:54:03.440] system. Uh but it could be open or
[01:54:07.199] closed depending on the conditions.
[01:54:10.960] He said I think UFOs may be the same
[01:54:13.520] thing. They may be open to some people
[01:54:16.560] under certain conditions that they
[01:54:19.040] control.
[01:54:20.639] They certainly have uh spoken to people
[01:54:25.119] who were
[01:54:26.960] confronted with entities
[01:54:30.000] that were open to discussion.
[01:54:34.000] Um
[01:54:36.239] there there are cases that I know uh
[01:54:41.440] where
[01:54:43.119] there were
[01:54:44.960] this happened in government facilities
[01:54:47.599] but nobody's talking about that. So I
[01:54:50.800] suspect that that's true based on the
[01:54:54.960] people I've met but uh they were not the
[01:54:59.199] people who are running the program. So I
[01:55:02.000] cannot be completely sure but what they
[01:55:05.119] described to me is a very sophisticated
[01:55:08.880] process by which we may be able to
[01:55:12.239] interact with the entities.
[01:55:16.560] Those are not the entities that are
[01:55:20.480] described um at Trinity in in uh in you
[01:55:26.080] know in uh in in my book um uh with Pa
[01:55:32.800] Harris
[01:55:34.400] uh they are not the entities that were
[01:55:38.800] uh caught in Brazil
[01:55:41.199] um that that are you know in that
[01:55:44.719] documentary.
[01:55:46.800] um
[01:55:48.320] they are
[01:55:50.159] they may be the controllers they may be
[01:55:52.159] the higher level entity
[01:55:54.719] they if if what I'm told is true the
[01:55:59.119] communication with them is very
[01:56:01.280] sophisticated and it's complex
[01:56:04.880] so
[01:56:06.639] there may be a group that I would
[01:56:09.599] respect
[01:56:11.360] that has access to that and this was
[01:56:14.880] from years ago by the way. I mean that
[01:56:17.199] report of of that that particular
[01:56:19.840] interaction was more than 20 years in in
[01:56:23.920] in a lab somewhere in controlled
[01:56:26.400] conditions.
[01:56:28.000] If that's true
[01:56:31.040] then uh there is a process ongoing where
[01:56:35.440] we may be able to
[01:56:39.520] acquire information at a very
[01:56:41.840] sophisticated
[01:56:43.440] level and that would be
[01:56:47.599] you know that could be a reason for
[01:56:49.679] stalling
[01:56:51.840] quote disclosure until there can be a a
[01:56:56.159] rational
[01:56:57.840] way that we're not confronted with
[01:57:00.800] something so
[01:57:03.599] uh overpowering
[01:57:06.239] that it would destroy our culture and
[01:57:08.960] our society. I mean, we have enough to
[01:57:12.080] deal with with AI these days, which is,
[01:57:15.599] you know, a foreign entity potentially.
[01:57:18.480] Um,
[01:57:20.320] >> but so, so you're saying you've been
[01:57:22.239] made aware that there is a government
[01:57:24.480] project, maybe it was 20 years ago, that
[01:57:26.880] was able to establish direct
[01:57:28.400] communication with a nonhuman
[01:57:30.400] intelligence and that you believe this
[01:57:32.719] information to be true and that and that
[01:57:35.360] and and that this is a reality. This is
[01:57:37.760] what you understand to be true. Is that
[01:57:39.599] correct?
[01:57:41.119] >> Um,
[01:57:42.719] I cannot tell.
[01:57:45.199] Yes. Yes. Uh it it's factual.
[01:57:51.199] What I cannot tell is whether that the
[01:57:55.520] entity that was presented
[01:57:58.400] was a simulation of a real entity or
[01:58:03.199] whether it was the real entity.
[01:58:06.880] Okay. ite that the the the people I
[01:58:10.960] spoke to couldn't probe it
[01:58:14.000] u to see if it was made of flesh or in
[01:58:17.360] metal or or or something else. Okay.
[01:58:22.320] that the it was presented to them in a
[01:58:27.199] secure facility that I've never heard of
[01:58:31.199] anywhere else
[01:58:33.760] where there was structured interaction
[01:58:39.360] with it on a continuing basis by
[01:58:43.520] specialists from different areas. the
[01:58:47.040] the person I spoke to was an extreme,
[01:58:52.800] you know, specialist in in a particular
[01:58:55.760] discipline.
[01:58:57.280] Uh and uh not not a casual observer.
[01:59:03.119] And so that could be kind of one of the
[01:59:05.440] reasons we have to be careful or there's
[01:59:08.080] a slow roll out of disclosure because
[01:59:10.320] you're saying we might already have
[01:59:11.920] communication with some non forms of
[01:59:15.760] communication
[01:59:17.360] or ways to engineer
[01:59:21.119] communication at a sophisticated level.
[01:59:24.719] I don't think the the entities from
[01:59:27.199] Trinity, you know, were obviously
[01:59:29.679] scared. They were not the controllers of
[01:59:32.159] the craft. The the witness was still
[01:59:35.840] alive, you know, uh who was become close
[01:59:39.599] friends with him. Went inside as a kid,
[01:59:43.280] you know. I mean, was a very curious,
[01:59:45.760] very smart kid who knew his, as he says
[01:59:49.599] still today, I know my territory, you
[01:59:52.400] know, this is the land from his family.
[01:59:55.440] He knows that ranch. He knows the
[01:59:57.199] cattle. He knows where the water is.
[01:59:59.520] signals everything about it. And uh you
[02:00:04.400] know when he was
[02:00:06.880] inside there was essentially nothing
[02:00:10.560] except a very crude thing that we
[02:00:13.920] actually had which and we disagree about
[02:00:17.119] what it is but I I think it's something
[02:00:19.760] that the soldiers that the military
[02:00:22.159] brought and they forgot to take it back.
[02:00:24.800] But I don't think it's a sophisticated
[02:00:26.960] we've tested it in the lab. It's what we
[02:00:29.599] spent over $10,000 testing it in Silicon
[02:00:33.760] Valley Labs and it's it's just perfectly
[02:00:37.599] normal gadget. It's not mysterious at
[02:00:41.360] all. So, uh, it may have been there just
[02:00:46.800] for the convenience of the soldiers
[02:00:49.360] doing work at night or whatever, but I I
[02:00:53.760] don't think it's part of the original of
[02:00:56.560] the original manufacturing equipment,
[02:00:59.360] you know, of whatever it was. Uh, the
[02:01:02.480] craft itself, we had very good
[02:01:05.760] description of it. By the way, the the
[02:01:08.719] the shape and the the
[02:01:12.639] You know the look and feel as as people
[02:01:15.679] say in Silicon Valley is identical to
[02:01:19.199] the one in Soro and it's identical to
[02:01:22.480] the one in Valencol. So we have three
[02:01:25.040] cases there. And what's funny is when
[02:01:27.599] people uh were uh describing it in a
[02:01:31.360] newspaper and they they always hire an
[02:01:34.239] illustrator and the illustrator always
[02:01:36.800] draws a disc and none of those was a
[02:01:40.080] disc. It was eggshaped.
[02:01:42.080] >> Egg shaped. Yeah.
[02:01:43.280] >> To the witnesses, you know, called it an
[02:01:46.000] avocado. And they were obviously
[02:01:48.159] speaking Spanish. And uh they uh you
[02:01:52.159] know, they called it an avocado. It was
[02:01:54.880] not quite oval, but it was an oval uh
[02:01:59.679] you know, an oval shape. There was
[02:02:01.520] nothing inside. If there was a an
[02:02:04.080] engine, it would have been under the
[02:02:05.920] floor. And he they looked in under the
[02:02:09.920] under the thing when it was in the truck
[02:02:13.599] in the army truck. It was on the side to
[02:02:16.880] go under the overpass. I mean all that
[02:02:19.520] is very clear. I mean there's nothing
[02:02:23.199] bizarre about it and they could see the
[02:02:25.760] underside. The underside was intact and
[02:02:28.639] there was no opening and it would have
[02:02:31.360] been about two feet deep and maybe six
[02:02:34.239] feet long. That's where you could put an
[02:02:37.520] engine. And
[02:02:40.320] you know when BAS was initiated the the
[02:02:45.040] task given by the DIA for us was to look
[02:02:48.960] at um you know propulsion
[02:02:54.000] um
[02:02:56.159] uh weight and and all kinds of things
[02:02:58.960] that would be the ordinary things that
[02:03:01.119] you'd want to know about a rocket. those
[02:03:04.000] things don't have protection.
[02:03:10.400] you know that you you could go if if you
[02:03:13.040] master
[02:03:14.880] and you know if if you talk to a modern
[02:03:18.159] physicist talk to Eric Davis you know
[02:03:21.119] who knows all of this stuff he'll tell
[02:03:23.520] you you know time and space are fine to
[02:03:26.560] do equations you know in school but
[02:03:30.000] that's not what physics is about and in
[02:03:33.040] the universe you could go from one point
[02:03:35.280] to another
[02:03:37.040] without any propulsion system to take
[02:03:39.679] you from one to another in the sense of
[02:03:42.400] we think about propulsion with engines
[02:03:46.000] and fuel and so on. If you master the,
[02:03:51.840] you know, the superpace,
[02:03:53.920] you could move from one point to
[02:03:56.080] another. I mean, what do I do with my
[02:03:57.920] computer? I mean, I I can be in Romania
[02:04:00.880] tomorrow with my computer. Okay.
[02:04:02.880] >> Right. in in remote viewing. I've been
[02:04:07.040] moved to places, you know, by Engle Swan
[02:04:11.119] just by reading a set of coordinates and
[02:04:14.480] I've experienced the physical data about
[02:04:18.800] that site physically in my body. Okay. I
[02:04:24.239] didn't have any rocket. I didn't take
[02:04:27.440] the train. I didn't take a plane. No, he
[02:04:30.719] just read longitude and latitude and I
[02:04:34.080] felt frozen. I felt vertigo. I told him,
[02:04:38.639] "Engo, I can't go on. I mean, this is
[02:04:41.840] this is very uncomfortable. I think I'm
[02:04:44.159] going to fall." And he said, he said,
[02:04:46.880] "Jack, go home. You you got the sight."
[02:04:51.760] I said, "Bingo, you know, where did you
[02:04:54.080] send me?" And he said, "You're at the
[02:04:56.239] top of a peak in the Andes,
[02:04:59.199] so you should be cold. You should be
[02:05:01.199] afraid of falling. Uh you should feel
[02:05:04.639] wind around you, which I was feeling."
[02:05:07.599] And I was in in that classified room,
[02:05:11.360] you know, on the third floor of the OSR
[02:05:13.679] in Men Park. He was at the end of the
[02:05:16.719] table. I was at the other end of the
[02:05:18.400] table, and all we had was white paper
[02:05:20.800] and a pen. and he read to me a set of
[02:05:23.760] coordinates and I was there
[02:05:26.880] >> and he said
[02:05:27.360] >> that's pretty that's pretty amazing
[02:05:28.880] >> and I said you know I'm on a roll here
[02:05:32.320] you know let's go this was you know
[02:05:34.400] early in the morning and he said no I
[02:05:36.960] want you to I don't want to do another
[02:05:38.800] site I want you to stay with that
[02:05:42.000] because you you went to the site
[02:05:46.080] okay well if if
[02:05:49.280] that a human can do that
[02:05:52.960] it's not with my mind that I did that.
[02:05:55.360] It's with my my body was trembling and
[02:05:59.040] was freezing and I was afraid to fall
[02:06:02.639] and there was wind. Okay. Now if if a
[02:06:08.639] number of people have described that
[02:06:10.560] Ingo described that I know Yuri Geller
[02:06:13.760] described that
[02:06:16.000] um
[02:06:17.840] I couldn't do it again. I mean I'm not a
[02:06:20.400] trained remote viewer but I you know we
[02:06:24.320] spent a year with ingo going through a
[02:06:27.520] number of cases like that because he
[02:06:30.400] wanted it wasn't to train me it was to
[02:06:33.760] train his methodology because he was
[02:06:36.159] going to publish his his method you know
[02:06:41.360] of of going through step by step. Well,
[02:06:44.320] in that most of the time we went step by
[02:06:46.960] step and [snorts] he wanted to see how
[02:06:49.840] good he could refine it with somebody
[02:06:52.880] who was not a remote viewer but
[02:06:55.920] understood what remote viewing was by
[02:06:58.560] spontaneously.
[02:07:00.239] And uh I um
[02:07:04.400] in that particular case I I I broke the
[02:07:07.840] the methodology
[02:07:11.360] but that was accidental but I know you
[02:07:14.480] can do that.
[02:07:16.800] >> Yeah. You you've experienced that now
[02:07:18.800] which is different. Jacques, after 50
[02:07:20.880] years, right, you're looking at the UFO
[02:07:22.960] phenomenon and you're you're seeing that
[02:07:25.520] it's so vast and you've looked at it
[02:07:27.440] through a lens that that most people
[02:07:29.679] haven't. One time you came to my ranch
[02:07:32.480] in Pioneer Town, California, and we were
[02:07:35.360] sitting out watching the the sunset, and
[02:07:38.000] you said something to me, and I want to
[02:07:39.840] see if you still feel the same way. I
[02:07:42.560] asked you, what is it that we truly know
[02:07:46.000] about UFOs? Out of all the the research
[02:07:48.880] you've done, what is it that we actually
[02:07:51.119] know for a fact? And you said there's
[02:07:52.960] there's only one thing that we know for
[02:07:55.599] sure about UFOs, that they represent an
[02:07:58.800] enormous amount of energy in a very,
[02:08:01.599] very small amount of space. That's what
[02:08:04.719] you told me then. That was probably 10
[02:08:07.119] years ago at this point, maybe eight
[02:08:09.199] years ago. Do you still feel the same
[02:08:11.760] way? Yes. After all that decades of
[02:08:13.679] research,
[02:08:14.239] >> more and more and after doing more more
[02:08:17.119] research on that case that I presented,
[02:08:19.360] I saw, you know, we've continued to talk
[02:08:22.320] to physicists about this and so uh they
[02:08:27.599] they really don't care about energy.
[02:08:30.079] They people are coming up and publishing
[02:08:33.679] models of how you could use uh you know
[02:08:38.000] thermonuclear energy in such a way that
[02:08:40.960] you could go very fast or you could
[02:08:43.760] manipulate things in the atmosphere.
[02:08:46.639] This is not it. I mean it's useful to do
[02:08:49.599] that. I mean it if it inspires people to
[02:08:53.199] to build those theories that's good. I
[02:08:55.520] mean, they shouldn't stop, but that's
[02:08:58.239] not that's not it.
[02:09:00.320] >> Jeremy, I have no conscience. I I feel
[02:09:02.800] no guilt about exploiting Jacques as
[02:09:05.199] much as we can. I'll keep him here for
[02:09:06.880] two days. You, however, have a big
[02:09:08.960] heart, so maybe you want to wrap it up
[02:09:11.440] with a final question or say goodbye.
[02:09:14.320] >> Yeah, absolutely. You know, Jacques, I
[02:09:16.159] just wanted to say, um, you know, thank
[02:09:18.079] you so much for coming on. you have
[02:09:19.760] created such a huge impact on the way
[02:09:22.800] that we look at the UFO phenomenon which
[02:09:25.199] you yourself admit we still don't know
[02:09:28.400] much about. But I I'm gonna ask you the
[02:09:30.880] same question to end this episode that I
[02:09:33.679] asked you on my ranch that day. And I
[02:09:36.560] hope you can give me a better answer
[02:09:38.639] than when I was at you were at my ranch,
[02:09:41.119] which is are we asking the right
[02:09:44.800] questions? And if not, what is the
[02:09:47.280] questions we should be asking about
[02:09:49.440] UFOs?
[02:09:52.320] I think the right
[02:09:54.880] question is
[02:09:57.599] probably not just in our brains, you
[02:10:01.119] know, it's really it's a phenomenon that
[02:10:05.119] is forcing us to look at our culture,
[02:10:10.320] look at um you know what we do um in
[02:10:14.239] wars, what we do in in business, what um
[02:10:19.040] you know everything is going to be in
[02:10:22.560] question. Uh not just the physics, it's
[02:10:26.639] not just propulsion. Uh it's our
[02:10:29.679] culture, uh our hopes, uh our visions
[02:10:34.480] of, you know, of God, of of other
[02:10:37.679] powers, and then what we're going to be
[02:10:40.960] facing when we go into the solar system
[02:10:45.679] and beyond the solar system. And are we
[02:10:49.679] really prepared to do that? I mean, just
[02:10:52.320] look at, you know, the the silly things
[02:10:55.360] we do about the moon right now about
[02:10:58.320] just going to our closest satellite, you
[02:11:02.560] know, and um I I think that's that's
[02:11:06.719] what's in question and the the answers
[02:11:10.800] have to come from us, you know, not
[02:11:13.119] them.
[02:11:14.880] Are you going to get answers down to
[02:11:17.679] fundamental misunderstandings about the
[02:11:19.920] nature of the relationship? You know, we
[02:11:21.840] think of them as invaders from Mars.
[02:11:24.159] They came here from somewhere way out
[02:11:26.400] there as opposed to that they have
[02:11:28.480] coexisted with us throughout human
[02:11:30.639] history.
[02:11:32.880] There is a one big question uh one
[02:11:36.560] hypothesis that's
[02:11:40.400] very tangible is that they can be tri
[02:11:43.679] time time travelers or that maybe there
[02:11:46.960] is no time that maybe what they are
[02:11:49.920] teaching us now um Eric Davis tells me
[02:11:53.520] the same thing and that basically the
[02:11:57.520] universe is not a space-time universe
[02:12:01.040] that It's uh the the what we perceive at
[02:12:04.079] space and time is a derived
[02:12:09.199] quality from something else which is
[02:12:12.719] much larger and and uh you know that we
[02:12:17.920] we haven't we have difficulty in
[02:12:20.159] perceiving with our senses. Now that may
[02:12:23.920] be the level where we have to continue
[02:12:27.840] exploring to to really come to a point
[02:12:31.840] where we can communicate with whatever
[02:12:35.679] is whatever is there. But we can trust
[02:12:40.159] the witnesses
[02:12:42.079] uh and we have to get away from that
[02:12:44.960] feeling that uh this is only a threat. I
[02:12:49.040] I think it's dangerous. Uh I think we
[02:12:52.480] learn more and more about it as time
[02:12:54.480] goes on and I think we have to learn to
[02:12:58.480] um cohabit with it and we have to learn
[02:13:02.639] to communicate with it.
[02:13:06.000] Well, thank you Jacques for your
[02:13:07.360] continued work. Thank you for your
[02:13:09.040] friendship and and the things you've
[02:13:10.800] shared with us. Um I hope that we get
[02:13:13.040] some satisfaction within our lifetimes
[02:13:15.599] that more of this will come out but none
[02:13:17.760] of it will unless we keep uh you know
[02:13:20.159] trying to understand the phenomenon. So
[02:13:22.400] thank you so much for being here with
[02:13:24.079] us. [music]