Third Eye Drops - Jason Samosa on the hidden empire, UFOs, and consciousness

Source: Third Eye Drops with Michael Phillip, YouTube
Episode: The Hidden Empire: Esoteric Physics, UFOs & Consciousness | Jason Samosa
Speakers: Michael Phillip and Jason Samosa
Published: 2026-09-09
Runtime: 2:02:07
URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov7x93GUS50
Audio: 7,327.475 seconds, 77,324,667 bytes, SHA-256 dc038afb7dbe39b8e3f074b2be1ccb73956ef4ce4fed4010cb0a71399a73b2ca
Transcription: FreeTranscribe.org production pipeline, submitted through /code/transcribe on 2026-09-09. NVIDIA Parakeet TDT 0.6B v3 revision 7c35754d166cca382ad1e53e68b01e7c575f3a1d, model-weight SHA-256 3cbdc85877e668ca7b82d0d56770eb1fac76691f55d6b97545e8d61ca588d10d, artifact schema 2.
Diarization: pyannote Community-1 revision 3533c8cf8e369892e6b79ff1bf80f7b0286a54ee returned two anonymous speaker clusters matching the two named participants. Exact timing and diarization remain in /code/transcribe/third-eye-drops-jason-samosa-hidden-empire-2026-09-09-production.segments.json.
Validation: compared against the complete English auto-generated YouTube captions. The comparison restored speech omitted by Parakeet at 1:15:24-1:15:29, 1:29:50-1:29:58, 1:45:51-1:46:10, and 1:55:51-1:56:02. The opening, midpoint, ending, identity, and duration agree.
Sourced: 2026-09-09
Analysis: ../../sources/delonge-ttsa-founder and ../../sources/ryder-lockheed-uap-transfer

This is an automated transcript and may contain errors in names, acronyms, numbers, speaker turns, and punctuation. The rendered body uses the production paragraph output without inferred speaker names; consult the saved segments artifact and recording before quoting.

TL;DW

Michael Phillip interviews researcher and YouTuber Jason Samosa about Samosa's theory that the real-world World Commerce Corporation inspired the Maynard Consortium in Tom DeLonge's Sekret Machines fiction. Samosa argues that former Allied intelligence leaders, financiers, Nazi industrial interests, and organized crime formed a private postwar network that financed itself through arms and drug trafficking and could have become the infrastructure for a breakaway civilization holding advanced technology outside nation-state control. They connect that theory to Matthew Brown's remarks, James Ryder's interest in the Lucis Trust and Theosophy, remote viewing, ancient mystery traditions, Prometheus, and speculation about multiple non-human factions; Samosa ultimately favors direct exploration of consciousness over waiting for government disclosure. He says his historical mapping is unfinished, and the discussion moves from documented relationships into speculation about UFO technology, occult breakthroughs, Robert Maxwell, Jeffrey Epstein, Mossad, and a transnational criminal elite.

I think the big shock is that we tend to view our governments as recruiting criminals. I think what we're looking at is criminals running the world. I think that's the big shock.

I think the criminal element is vast and it's big. You go back to 2017, we were kind of going through this process of disclosure or whatever you want to call it.

You know, they're like on Fox News saying it's not Russian, it's not Chinese, it's not our own technology. And you're like, okay, well, you're naming nation states, right? Yeah.

Is it possible that it's human, some of it? I don't think it all is, by the way, I do think something else is going on. But is some of it human technology that doesn't belong to a nation?

That's a threat that I think might have something heavy at the end of it. We just seem so torn and confused. It's it's like we're we're a glitch in the system, like our source code was was edited and the game doesn't function properly anymore.

I I don't like to be religious about those those texts and view it as like this is the secret truth that's been hidden. The the reality is they all paint a very similar picture.

This idea that that mankind was created in a sort of a balanced system that the gods controlled and it worked. But then we we went after this extra knowledge, or Prometheus comes down and brings fire, or whichever version you want to look at, and and suddenly the the system stops working because we may have gained this evolution, but through that, we now don't quite fit into this world.

And that's where this idea of going to the stars, right? This idea that our home may not be here, that there may be a part of us which in some sense doesn't belong here, and that's why it doesn't work.

First things first, Jason, I gotta give you your flowers. You do such deep, meticulous, impressive research, man. Uh the kind of research that this topic, this suite of topics, really deserves.

You know, there's so many people who just want to push out the most sensational shit, the most clickbaity stuff. Um, you are not doing that, man. Like you're really diving deep.

You're reading books, you're trying to go through primary sources, you're using your sort of reservoir of knowledge of spirituality and the esoteric and history and all these other things to try to clarify things that are so mercurial and impossible to you know try to like put simple definitions on, but you're doing an incredible job of it, man.

So so I needed to say that off the bat. That's really, really kind, man. I massively appreciate that. And uh, you know, I I I think there are just so at this point, what is it like eighty years since Roswell or something like that?

Um Yeah, we have so many great people who've done the legwork, you know? Like there are these amazing deep books where people have shown connections between different things. So it's kind of a privilege to sit on top of that, you know.

Like, I don't know that I would even have a YouTube channel if it wasn't for other people writing great books, and uh so it's just fun to get to connect the dots.

And I appreciate you saying that, man. It's super kind. For sure. Credit where credit's due. And you know, it's funny because I say this topic, and I don't even I don't even know if UFOs like encapsulates it because you could almost put different things at the mass head, right?

Like you could put in a lot of your work, at least, you know, um, these secret power currents that you know run civilization or are pulling the strings of humanity, or the esoteric spirituality are, you know, big questions around who and what we are.

Like all of these things are central to your interests and and mine, by the way, which is um often convenient because people like to talk about UFOs, but they really are a great Trojan horse for all of those topics because once you start going deep and you look at the smartest people who have ever, you know, attempted to collide their intellect with this topic, that's where it ends up.

It ends up in questions about consciousness, uh the the nature and um composition of reality, you know, hidden history, all of these things that are just so fun and so complex.

And um, you do not shy away from that. You you go deep into all of it. Yeah, well, it's so interesting. Like, I feel like I've all like I'm sure anyone who who watches your channel, I'm sure you're the same, right?

Some of these topics are just so interesting, and you go online, you like go on YouTube or you watch a documentary about something, and it doesn't give you enough.

You feel like you have all these extra questions. Um, there's so many interesting things to look at and mysterious groups, you know, where you see you see certain certain people or certain groups appearing and doing strange things, and there's never a good explanation about why.

Like the classic one, I you know, I still have to try and figure out is this weird collision of um L. Ron Hubbard and Jack Parsons is just a great example of like that's one of a thousand different videos that you could make that could occupy you for a month where you see interesting people colliding, doing something remarkable, and then going on to do things that seem to maybe be connected to what they were doing.

So all of that for me is just it's just a playground, you know? Yeah. You you've covered a number of topics, in including um the one that you just mentioned in in one of your videos on the Collins Elite.

You you went fairly deep into that Jack Parsons crowly kind of strain. And I mean, that is one of the great greatest examples of how potentially this UFO stuff and this esoteric occult stuff uh coexist potentially very closely.

But in in all of your research, not just that. What has been one of the most shocking, unbelievable kind of anecdotes you've uncovered that you think is probably real?

Not to put you on the spot, but ooh, that's a really good question. Um it's not so much an individual anecdote. For me, it's it's it's seeing, especially like right now, as I'm working on the things I'm working on, it is finally being able to see how different groups connect after the war, you know.

Um, I'm working on this uh huge piece of research right now into these post war groups, a particular organization that was at the heart of essentially the emergence of the deep state.

And that's really interesting because you're like, okay, so after the war, there's these Nazis and there's these financiers, and they start to do all these really interesting deep state activities, a lot of them very disturbing.

But what's crazy is then as I keep pushing down that track, I see the connections to Robert Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein. And then you see it's not simply that, you know, all these little they look like little isolated conspiracies, but if you keep shaking the tree, eventually they start to connect.

And then you also begin to realize that they're all fascinated by yes, running sort of deep state operations, but also there's interest in the occult and interest in sort of consciousness, advanced UFO technology.

All of this stuff is lingering around these characters. And I I I find it really interesting. Like in the case of Robert Maxwell, there's um you know, there's all these documentaries out there that paint him as ultimately a bit of a loser.

They just make him sound like this grotesque weirdo. Um, you know, I I even thought that about Epstein when he came out. Well, all these files came out, and there was the video of him doing this long form interview.

I don't know if you ever saw that, but he looked kind of stupid. And I was like, you know, he looks kind of dumb. And now I'm thinking, yeah, are these just portrayals that are given to us to diffuse the perception of these individuals?

Whereas if we were allowed to see quite how complex and actually intelligent they were, intelligence doesn't mean they have to be good, but bright people, capable people, we might be more inclined to keep pulling that thread.

So that just the sh the sheer reality of how all of these individual conspiracies can be connected into one coherent story is blowing my mind right now. And I wish I didn't have such high standards about my videos because I just want to talk about it all.

Yeah, right, right. It's gonna take me like five months to finish the whole series. So uh, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And we can certainly talk about some of that.

One of the things that you are uncovering in your work that you you just alluded to is that there could be this secret strain of power and technology that comes out of the post war era.

And disturbingly, it mainly seems to come out of Germany. And that's there seems to be this very close collusion between the um American power system and that power system for some reason.

Like what you know, many people watching this know about um Project Paperclip and the scientists and stuff like that. But these are like more difficult to trace ties without shiny names and like really simple, uh nutshelled conspiracy theories around them.

Like it they're harder to appreciate, but the implications of them are much deeper, I think, because it again starts to bring all these topics back up, like you know, forbidden science and uh, you know, alternate technologies and the esoteric and all this stuff is like very central to a lot of the of what these groups were doing.

And you know, people like Peter Lavenda have attempted to uncover a lot of this stuff, and admittedly, I need to do more of a deep dive into that segment of his work because I know he's written whole books on it.

Um, but you've you've gone into this research as well. What what have you found? Like, is there truth, do you think, to this post World War II sort of, you know, uh invisible fiefdom of like power and influence that sort of either disperses itself into Amer the American system, or does it maybe create its own completely hidden power system under, you know, many, many different names?

Like what have you found there? Yeah, uh I found something that that feels really tangible. Um and it's interesting because you you begin to realize the dichotomies that we accidentally fall into about what happened after the war are are really misleading.

You know, there's this idea that paperclip is the big dirt dark you know um dirty secret that that we're trying to uncover. Or then it's like the alternative is the Nazis escaped, they created a huge post war empire, they're they're independent to all of us, are they in Antarctica?

And it's like a really sort of extreme version that that is built on really interesting information that's worth considering, but it becomes this extreme sort of caricature and they're responsible for like every single flying saucer.

So the what I've identified I think is something that charts down the middle um that that is very tangible and it it's interesting. It it comes from the reason I I've been able to pull this thread and find some interesting stuff is it's because of Tom DeLong who I don't know Tom but he wrote this um this fiction book in twenty fifteen with a co author.

And um the book didn't do that well and they were gonna make a TV series about it which has been cancelled which is a shame. Oh man yeah it's a it's a shame because the the story as I as I keep working on it it it there's a lot there.

So on the front cover the book says inspired by real events. And you know you're like okay so sort of generic generic sort of high level stuff but if you begin to read the book like like imagine that Tom couldn't tell you the real story yeah but he desperately wanted to encode it in the book.

You've got to imagine that if you read it that way and then pull out all the bits where you're like wait a second he's giving very specific dates and all of these things together.

And there's a there's a cornerstone to it which is there's this company called the Maynard Consortium in the novel which is basically this private organization which seems to be controlling the UFOSU and basically controlling a lot of things behind the scenes.

It's not an aerospace company and it's not a single government. It is a transnational group that seems to mix Western elites like very rich British people, American industrialists, but also there are these sort of Nazi figures involved so people have been trying to figure out what this main art consortium is.

There are some other details the book says money for the founding of the company it was founded in the late 40s and the money came from Swiss bank accounts so very clearly implying that this was like hidden money that was somehow suspicious and uh it has lots of shadowy subsidiaries through which it's doing a lot of devious stuff.

There's a bunch of other things but th those are the core details. And I was uh I was watching one of my favorite YouTube channels which is a um channel called Eyes Wide Open and it's all about the history of the deep state in in many ways it's really kind of dry and a little bit academic but it's it's basically for for people who can't be bothered to read the deep books it's a video form of like what you need to know.

And uh I people always say like I seem to read a lot but the truth is I really struggle to read and wherever I can if there's a video form or or some other thing I'll do it.

Just watching this and he he kept he talked about this company called the World Commerce Corporation which my ears went up because I was like I've heard this company before I'd heard it in Peter Levenda's Sinister Forces Joseph Fowl talked about it in fact in every book that's trying to understand what happened with the Nazis it gets mentioned but never in a lot of detail.

So I I just thought I really want to look into this because it sounded interesting based on what he was talking about and I just went in and before I knew it I became convinced it was this Maynard Consortium in real life.

And the story of this company goes like this basically um it's founded in 1945 with mysterious Nazi money which couldn't be returned to the United States because it would trigger a congressional investigation and um suddenly it's got all these incredibly powerful people involved in it and also Nazi figures end up involved and Nazi industry seems to be integrated into it.

What's so suspicious about it is um if you go back to World War II there were a bunch of critical intelligence agencies that were operating there was the Office for Strategic Services which was run by Wilde Bill Donovan.

Wilde Bill Donovan was a Wall Street lawyer he had Alan Dulles working with him he was best friends with the Morgans who were advising him and worked with him the Mellons I mean it was just a who's who of the American establishment this organization over in in in England here you had the special operations executive which is a criminally underappreciated intelligence agency which is very important to understand.

It was run by a guy called Charles Hambro who basically was he he nearly became the governor of the Bank of England. He worked for the Bank of England and has a legendary merchant bank called Hambros which if anybody likes to keep notes like write down Hambrose Bank I think it's one of the most important banks if you want to dig into all of this stuff.

There was a guy called Will Stevenson who was a conduit between those two and worked for the British Security Coordination. And then interestingly there was one more intelligence agency involved in World War II which um was was unique in its role and responsibility it's called the Office for the coordination of inter American affairs and it was responsible for the intelligence over South America.

So the OSS didn't have jurisdiction over South America. So this other agency has a critical critical role to play if the Nazis are exfiltrating money people personnel technology down to South America which they were whoever runs this agency would basically be able to report that it turns out he was being run by Nelson Rockefeller whose family had been in bed with the Nazis up to the, you know, all through World War II and before um whose colleague Thomas McKittrick was running the Bank of International Settlements which was the bank which approved all of this gold to leave the Reichsbank the German bank down to South America it was Rockefeller's friend who was approving it.

And there are I mean I you know without relaying the whole two hour video there are so many details which keep showing this group of intelligence leaders were the ones who basically sanctioned the exfiltration of all of this Nazi staff and Nazi personnel.

But the wild thing is when the WCC the World Commerce Corporation is founded those four people have all lost their jobs because the intelligence networks are shut down next day they start working for this company.

The office address is the same as the British Security Coordination's address. That was the one that was run by Will Stevenson while Bill Donovan steals all of his documents from the OSS brings them over it is just wild.

It's wild because we tend to think the CIA was founded in 1947 and that's when it all began but I really think this private group were were were doing a lot in those intermediary years.

And then they also grafted in a bunch of Nazi industry into that company and suddenly it had hundreds of subsidiaries around the world 450 which were soon to be involved in arms trafficking also the global drug industry this is something I'm going to talk about in in an upcoming piece of work and I mean there are links to pretty much every conspiracy that that you could name in the post war era to this network.

So the the you earlier mentioned paperclip and this is a really good contrast we tend to think that paperclip is this outrageous awful controversy but those scientists and those resources were going into the government.

The government which is you know basically supposedly run for the people the people who died in World War II sort of on paper received those spoils, right? The spoils of war went to the people who fought and died to their government and of course in reality the government doesn't really represent the people but that's a conversation for later um but the the the controversy here is the World Commerce Corporation represents private interests stealing the spoils of war, stealing personnel, stealing industry and also and this is where the kind of the bubble opens up about advanced science they had a full year before the Americans swept through Europe and collected all this interesting tech.

And it is I think indebatable indisputable that they will have taken the best things to wherever they went. And I don't think by the way it doesn't have to be working flying sources.

That could have been a lie designed to distract us I mean there are almost a convenient number of Nazis who suddenly claim that that was the breakthrough. What if it's directed energy weapons?

What if it's some kind of mind control? What if it's some of these more subtle things that aren't as captivating as a flying disc to the human mind. And so that's basically the the the the core of the story.

Yeah yeah and everybody can already see what I meant by this deep meticulous research because so so the punchline is this that in a nutshell these stories you hear about, you know, if if you've if you've been around this sphere, this this idea that the Nazis were working on secret tech, UFO related tech, but that for that work to continue, there would have had to been a massive flow of not just knowledge but resources and and very well hidden resources and efforts that would have to be sanctioned from a high level, right?

Like you can't just move massive amounts of gold, manufacturing all of this kind of stuff. It's very large scale stuff that not only has like a physical put footprint, but requires a lot of people, expertise, personnel, all of that stuff.

So it starts to sound very outlandish and very unlikely on its face, right? But then when you start to see that there were literally hundreds of tons of gold and you know key people and collusion from the highest levels within the like um allied power governments, the United States, the UK, everybody you know, these all these people you just named like there's your plausible roadmap for how something like this occurs, for how the secret technology, these key people, this manufacturing, all the money needed actually does make it out and does survive under these like shadowy uh organizations with very mundane sounding names, right?

So you yeah you've already started to allude to what some of these things could be and you know in in your videos I don't know if you've arrived um at any conclusions yet that you've published but where is your mind going in terms of what it was like do you think there could potentially have been you know UFO tech or do you think it it mostly um makes it out in the form of a sort of like uh I don't know hi hidden kind of governance system or like you mentioned the size stuff as well and I mean that's impossible not to bring up because we know that the Nazis were deeply obsessed with the esoteric and the occult and were trying all kinds of things that would absolutely be just like next level human rights violations if they were happening today in any kind of public way.

But yet you do hear stories and you do see vestiges of very similar things like with stories about the Gate program and MKUltra um Project Stargate to a a lesser extent because that doesn't seem quite as you know uh terrifying in what they were trying to do, but still related.

So I mean do you see all of this as like different tendrils that may have started back there? Um I'm just stacking up the questions at this point so I'll shut up and let you let you riff.

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So I mean do you see all of this as like different tendrils that may have started back there? Um I I'm just stacking up the questions at this point so I'll shut up and let you let you riff.

Yeah yeah I know it's it's a it's such an important question to try and figure out what if this if this was happening, where did it lead to right?

And and so you know someone recently asked me um how does this connect to the legacy program as like a it's it's a great question to clarify like you know what would what would the connection be?

And this again is where it's this this contrast between what the government got versus what this private group was doing. And and this private group was in some ways aligned with the Western powers in the Cold War but they also could could pull the other way right they weren't necessarily supporting the Soviets and anything that was going on but they kind of acted as a third power and and so when we look at um like the legacy program it's government sanctioned through aerospace companies and um through the executive branch and the Department of Energy and so it's it's although it's kind of rogue and it's not having proper democratic oversight that's in some ways being sanctioned through the existing infrastructure of the government.

Yeah. And I I think what we're looking at here is something that may have intersected with the government at times but really is its own thing. And there's a couple of interesting testimonies here which kind of you know add some color.

Matthew Brown um one of the whistleblowers who came out last year he worked at the State Department he was a uh counter proliferations analyst so someone working on you know weapons of mass destruction and trying to stop the proliferation of those when he came out he he was asked by George Knapp you know if we've made progress with reverse engineering this stuff um you know would we could could we use it?

Were we going to see that deployed in war? And Brown's response was striking. Uh it was whoever's made progress with that, it's not the government and the government may be permitted to use it but it ultimately isn't in their hands.

That is also what DeLong depicted in his novels and of course DeLong had some remarkable advisors. You know you don't have to believe that the advisors were necessarily being good to him but you I think you do have to believe that the advisors were there advising him.

So um you know you've got these sort of apocryphal tales coming from people who are connected to the inside world suggesting that there is a lineage of technology which doesn't belong to the government and so these government programs which maybe we're tapping into may be something different.

Uh and I I I think that's quite scary quite a scary thought you know that that private industry seems to have its own lineage of technology. And then of course you go back to 2017 we were kind of going through this process of disclosure or whatever you want to call it and you know it's like oh UAP needs to be taken seriously and that gets processed.

And then you know Lou Elizondo I don't know if it was him or who it was but you know they're like on Fox News saying it's not Russian it's not Chinese it's not our own technology.

And you're like, okay, well you're naming nation states right yeah is it possible that it's human some of it I don't think it all is by the way I do think something else is going on but is some of it human technology that doesn't belong to a nation and uh you know that's uh that's a threat that I think might have something heavy at the end of it.

Yeah. Yeah it's essentially the breakaway civilization kind of argument right and I just talked to Dolan again very recently episode's not out yet and and I tried to bring up the breakaway civilization um with him again and and it very much plays into everything that you're saying.

Like could there it and it sounds like the most batshit crazy conspira conspiracy theory, right? Like, oh yeah there's this hidden group that's super powerful and it has crazier better tech than we do and it it's secretly pulling the strings of everything.

And and to an extent yes that sounds super cartoonish but when you do see the evidence right over and over and over again in all of these UFO sightings uh from all of these whistleblowers who are saying things like Matt Brown, like Lou Elizondo, it does beg the question what in the hell are we seeing then?

And what role, if any, could humans have in it? And I do think we should seriously entertain the idea that some of this stuff could be of like I don't know alternative human origin rather than jumping to the extraterrestrial hypothesis right away.

And um there's that McCasslin quote to the effect of anything that's crashed has not been extraterrestrial. Have you seen this quote? Um swore an ex the other day yeah yeah yeah yeah probably new Sinosis who who's like another just insanely deep researcher I've talked to him a bit I talked to him a bit when I was working on my um my uh my Theorgy and UFOs video that I'm still plugging away at that will be out eventually.

Um but um but yeah th basically what he's saying there is again Neil McCassland uh you know head of Air Force is it Air Force science and uh technology Air Force Research Laboratory at right at Wright Patterson Air Force Base.

I mean just as deep in these programs and these technologies as you can possibly be uh who by the way was an advisor to Tom DeLong when he was writing these books those emails leaked out for anybody that doesn't know that story you can you can see these emails between um DeLong and Podesta where he's talking about General McCasslin being an advisor.

So anyway yeah he he's insinuating that things that have crashed that appear to be UFOs are actually not of extraterrestrial or mysterious origin, but they're like the human versions of these things or the human attempts to reverse engineer these things.

So then that does beg the question whose are they? Right? And if they're not the United States, they're not China's, they're not the they're not Russia's, what else is there but some but some hidden group, right?

Yes. Yes. I think it's a a really worthwhile hypothesis. And it it, you know, it does sound a little bit outlandish because, you know, I think the picture that tends to be painted is we talk about a breakaway civilization, but we don't explain what that means.

And so it can feel very like um, you know, to use the word tangible again, it doesn't feel tangible. But you know what's so interesting about the World Commerce Corporation is you're going to notice me like constantly like steering it back in this direction.

I get it. It's it's the infrastructure which would enable a breakaway civilization. This so what you know on paper let's just imagine what you would need if you were after the war.

Let's imagine there is this secret alliance between post war Nazis, the Mafia, establishment British people, American industrialists and they're thinking we don't want to have to ask for permission from the government anymore to build things, to do things, to we want to have our own offshoot where no one governs us.

And you know you could say well go and live in Vatican City you could say they created this little enclave in the Bahamas you can create small bits of land where you're free but what are the ambitions bigger?

So there are some ingredients that you would need. One would be a mechanism to continuously generate wealth in an off the books way is there a way to continuously generate money which you can spend on whatever you want that's part number one.

And this group looks to me like they basically co opted the global drug industry after the war. And you know quite often we tend to blame this on the CIA who are absolutely culpable.

But it was happening before then and it was actually happening you know through other private organizations which are connected to the WCC. So in Southeast Asia you get this drug industry emerging which is basically stolen from the KMT which is this sort of Chinese force at the time and across Thailand it was kind of co opted by the people from the WCC.

They then work with their mafia friends in Europe who had helped them during the war, during um Operation Underworld and Operation Husky US intelligence had partnered with the mafia they use them for distribution and then over in America there's Maya Lansky and the National Crime Syndicate helping with distribution over there as well.

So you've suddenly got this huge uh amounts of money coming in. They they by the way they 20 times the production of opium in the in the Southeast Asian um well region just after World War II.

So there was I can't remember the exact numbers but there was a certain amount of tons it was 20x in a c in a few years and they're selling it all over the world.

Interestingly the people involved in this group many of their families in the British side made their money from the opium trade in in the kind of 1800s and early 1900s as well.

So this is not new for them you know so you've got this ability to generate wealth and then the next bit is can you launder that money so no one can see where it's come from, you can spend it without worrying.

So that's also something that they end up doing and I won't go into it here but you know basic so basically you've got this capacity to like generate money, wash it and spend it in a way that basically goes down a black hole.

And so you start to see all these components coming together that this is a very um sort of it's it's easy to hold onto and piece together how now you've got this sort of private thing that's starting to take off.

It's becoming bigger and bigger. So I I I think the pieces are there. The question is about the technology and what they developed and that's where it gets harder and harder to um to piece things together but there's absolutely attempts to corner interesting science by the same group um after the war and that's that's something I'm looking into at the moment and it's it's pretty systematic.

So that same organization going and you know going over here to this person and trying to get control of them and taking over this organization and you know all those little dirty deals it's yeah wild.

Yeah. Yeah it's incredibly fascinating stuff and it's such thorny territory because uh power brokers gonna power broke, right? Like like they're going to try to you know get their their fingers into all these things into any major industry where they can um exert power and extract money right and then there's always this temptation to try to uh parlay that into some kind of mega narrative mega conspiracy that leads to all the answers and and I love that you're sensitive to that fact and you're not like necessarily trying to extend the hypothesis further than where it really deserves to go based on the evidence.

And yeah dude I'd really look forward to see what else you you uncover to this effect. But like a slight pivot although it is super related I know you've done deep dives into spirituality esotericism gnosticism religion and also how those things fold into this larger conversation and this group but one one place where I'm still foggy again that I want to do more research on and I and I don't know how deep you've gone into this specifically is what the Germans were actually up to in terms of their occult esoteric research and what fruit if any that may have borne and how something like that could potentially flow into this alternative form of technology that emerges.

Because you know again this is something you hear people like Lavenda talking about um it and really it you know there's there's really nothing more maligned and diminished than the occult, right?

Like the idea that any of this stuff works like that you can make uh talismans and sacred objects and and and and things that have these sort of almost um archetypal uh sources of power that they're that they're channeling, right?

Like those ideas have completely been dismissed by mainstream science. Yet when you look at ancient culture that's basically all they wanted to do right like like the pyramids the on on any given continent all of these things were understood to be the highest manifestation of sacred technology.

They're all aligned with with planets and asterisms and constellations and uh heavenly bodies and stuff like that. And clearly they were able to accomplish so much with this way of thinking.

And whenever you dive into where this knowledge comes from they're basically all saying it comes from the gods. They're basically all saying it comes from some you know unseen form of intelligence that that they're in touch with so the idea that we might still be doing that in in some very advanced way, but much more in secret and much more protected it it just makes sense you know that unless these things were truly wiped out, it makes sense that they were more likely co opted by a very small amount of people who continue to use them.

And it seems like what it seems like the the Germans woke up to this in World War II and went full force in very barbaric ways into trying to uncover those secrets for themselves and use those secrets for themselves.

I don't know if you found anything specific to that effect but I would love to just hear your thoughts on this whole strain of thought in general as someone who's been researching it themselves.

Yeah I just think the pieces fit together so well the way you're explaining it like if you go back into our ancient history it's prolific. Yeah. And it feels like we're going through this little rediscovery and like right now we're being permitted as well as like normal citizens to begin to think about these things.

The best example I think of just showing that the the people in power know this stuff works is remote viewing, which that term makes remote viewing sound like it's some sort of new discovery.

In reality it's just what so many ancient cultures have done in the past I guess you would call it astral projection or you know there were all these different terms for it.

And so it seems to me that if if the United States or whoever it was who first stumbled across this would discover that. And if the Nazis maybe did something similar right you have one thing, one thing where you see some success, I would throw everything at the wall and see what sticks.

I would be like wait a second so this is actually an ancient technique which we're discovering has applications. We're in the middle of a conflict where every advantage is huge.

Let's have a look and that's just a very pragmatic kind of like modern Western approach right it's like how can I improve my margins on this war thing we're doing but the Germans also had something else going on which is you know the uh the the pain of losing um World War I and all the suffering they've been through the Great Depression um was compounding this cultural identity crisis that they were going through which it was it was particular there was a a crisis in terms of Christianity there was a a loss of faith in in that form of religion there was a rediscovery of sort of Norse mythology and then Helena Bolavatsky was doing what she was doing and talking about yeah this new fusion and people were traveling over to the East for the first time and bringing these ideas back and there's something there and I there's a great book called Hitler's Monsters which really explains how this happened and of course Levenders and Holy Alliance as well where they just show you that that that the German occult thing wasn't just aesthetic which is I I think how our history books tend to depict it.

It was so deep it was so deeply ingrained in their cultural identity for a hundred years up to World War II. And so there was a huge amount of experimentation going on and some of it was nonsense like you know maybe it's not I don't know but it looks nonsense to me some of this world ice theory stuff and certain type of dousing things that to me I'm like I have no idea if this would ever bear fruit.

It looks strange. But that proclivity towards experimentation is funnily enough, it's the thing that progresses science um I I I studied philosophy at university and I remember my final year that there weren't enough modules that were interesting to me.

Like I'd done all the Greek philosophy stuff I was doing some political philosophy and I was being funneled into this philosophy of science course and I was like oh man this kind of sucks.

Yeah this is gonna suck yeah yeah and it turned out to be the best thing ever because it's so interesting realizing how science works that the philosophical underpinnings of what it means to know something.

And um the philosopher Thomas Kuhn uh came up with this idea of scientific paradigms which is when you think about it it makes so much sense. The idea is that science doesn't just happen in a vacuum right it's not just like let's see if we can figure this out that the very way you think about science exists within a certain type of paradigm.

There was a period where the Newtonian paradigm was dominant um Newton effectively and I'm not a scientist but the the principle being everything kind of works like a machine right if you change this it impacts this and if this is happening over here then that's probably happening over there.

It was a very you realize that the world follows very strong principles and laws and then you have the Einsteinian revolution that happens and um you know each of these creates a worldview where in the new Newtonian paradigm they were like we've just we've finally figured out science.

But then eventually that breaks and it turns out then they think oh in the Einsteinian paradigm we've discovered science we finally figured it out but the real lesson here from Kuhn is that every paradigm is temporary and actually it's when you have a crisis in the paradigm when you when it when things don't seem to work anymore and anomalies are starting to appear that that's funnily enough that's when the scientific establishment starts to get really defensive which is exactly the moment they should be excited because those anomalies indicate that you're on the brink of something and so the Nazis with all of their experimentation their openness may have found themselves more willing to indulge those anomalies, those peculiarities and you know we don't we don't know everything that they will have found right but there is zero doubt they were well ahead of us on so many fronts.

And it's just kind of wild. Like even the stuff that was left behind in Europe that wasn't spirited away pushed our rocket program forward by 10 years. They had infrared and these incredible machine guns and so many there was even this thing this is a wild this is just a great example actually there's a couple examples here of just things they were doing that it's not even relevant to our conversation in terms of did it did this go any further but it just shows the wild imagination one was this ball shaped tank okay it was like a sphere and they found one of these in Japan and it had like a gun mounted on it I can't remember if someone would have gone inside or if it was remote controlled.

This thing looks like it's from like 50 years in the future. I think it was called the Kugel Panzer or something. And then there was the sun gun where they were planning to launch a bunch of stuff up into space and have this huge like filter that would have filtered the energy of the sun and you could have directed it towards a city and just burned the city.

That's terrifying. And it just shows the imagination and uh you know anyway all that is to say that that that that occult activity right it's not just scientific innovation it's also you know what happens if we use some of these ancient techniques what was it that these ancient mythologies were talking about when they discussed this or that or whatever and uh you know today it's 2026 and I feel like whether you believe that this disclosure thing is uh like a psyop or real or whatever I'm kind of inclined to think it's it's a semi genuine attempt to disclose something but it's like we're we're we're being encouraged to believe that there's stuff out there and the evidence is everywhere.

Um and then you go back and you think well is it out of the question that the Nazis made contact and could that have explained some of the insanely extreme things that happened and to go back to um that you were quoting earlier Tom's advisors and the interesting things they said in in one of the books which sadly people just didn't read them and I haven't read them end to end but you you dive in there's so much useful stuff and one of them yeah one of them says uh it may well be that genocide is something that comes from the phenomenon it may be that there's a phenomenon out there that wants to wipe out certain genetic lineages that are disadvantageous to it and it's a terrifying thought but yes you know again it's it's wondering where did all of that stuff come from that intense energy in that moment so there's a lot to play with there and I I I do wonder if if we might learn more about that over time.

Yeah. Oh man yeah no this is one of the things where you know when people ask for like catastrophic disclosure, I guarantee the vast majority of them have not considered like like what if a large amount of the suffering on the planet is done because of some hidden information that emanates from whatever these others are.

And on top of that, what if it's more complex than oh these are just evil beings that need like blood sacrifices it's i i I I'm not saying it's as simple as that.

But when you read Secret Machine's the first one the God's book Lavenda speaks cryptically but at length about the uh the the tie between our origins and blood and whatever these higher beings are and you know the idea that we may have the idea we we may not fully understand why ancient civilizations were so obsessed with sacrifice and and stuff like that and and what our blood really carries.

And and part of it is that in the Mesopotamian creation lore, humans are actually born out of partially out of like essentially like an alchemical dare like alchemy between a slain god, Kingu and then like earthly genetics or animals or something.

So so if there's any truth to that the the brackets are essentially that like we're a mix between a dead god and like the animals of Earth or something like that.

Yes. And if we're really talking about these massive cosmic powers and bloodlines and stuff that we cannot even begin to understand what that actually means or what it could be metaphorical or symbolic for, you just don't even know where those threads would reach.

And if there are some you know like let's just say there is some still some elite cast of human beings that are in touch with that or they they understand what kinds of um tolls need to be and offerings need to be paid to those things for for let let's just say like extremely ground level like I don't know earth stabilization requirements or just something like that where it's not a choice but it must be done.

You know, things like what you're saying like heinous war crimes or something some kind of louche situation. I'm not saying this is what I believe but I'm saying the possibilities are pretty insane.

Like when when you really go back and try to connect these dots, I think there's things at play here that we can only like stretch our imaginations into and maybe we're totally off track here and this is just pure, you know, uh bro anthropology or something but I don't know man.

There there could be something there. There's a whole other str feel free to riff on this, but there's a whole other strain that I was thinking of as well in terms of this like alternate um you know trajectory of technology that we have zero clue about in a public facing way.

But yeah, feel free to riff on that before I pivot into that. I yeah dude I just think it's so interesting and and like on an intuitive level I think that um I look at my cat I've got two cats.

I love my cats they're so simple they just they just everything's just fine. You know they just know who they are they know what they need and they just exist in a rhythm with the world.

And um actually everything does you know it's the classic sort of circle of life everything fits it has a rhythm. We just seem so torn and confused. It's it's like we're a we're a glitch in the system like our source code was was edited and the game doesn't function properly anymore and uh I I that's why I find you know I don't I I I I don't like to be religious about those those texts and and view it as like this is the secret truth that's been hidden.

But the the reality is they all paint a very similar picture and you were talking there about this mixing between the earth and the sky, the god that's slain and the beasts below and that motif is prevalent across like so much ancient mythology.

It's wild like it it seems and then of course the um the the the the Christian the Christian religion and this idea that that mankind was created in a sort of a balanced system that the gods controlled and it worked but then we we went after this extra knowledge or Prometheus comes down and brings fire or whichever version you want to look at and and suddenly the the system stops working because we we may have gained this evolution but through that we now don't quite fit into this world and that's where you know DeLong and and Levenda and this idea of going to the stars right this idea that our home may not be here that there may be a part of us which in some sense doesn't belong here and that's why it doesn't work.

And you know again like you call it like broanthropology or whatever. Like you know it's just interesting to put these things together and it does resonate a lot more with me than we just evolved here in a balanced system.

Um I think some there's some other input that's come in, you know I I agree and and I would at least go that far and and that may be more of a metaphysical thing and not a literal thing.

You know, I mean kind of like the Hermetic creation story that's told in like the Poimandres or something if you've ever read that where you know Hermes has this encounter with a divine logos dragon and it basically tells him you know the whole download.

This is what humans are this is how you got here this is the whole kind of lineage and and that's like a much more almost metaphysical version of that story how there was almost this like um this like fall of consciousness from the one essentially um that eventually gave rise to like distinct beings and then um almost these like angelic androgynous beings that were not male or female but they were both and then those split and then you know blah blah blah and get to this state where there's humans.

But it's essentially saying that the the origin of consciousness at the very least is not a human thing. It's not this ground up, you know, we we crawled out of the oceans over the course of billions of years as we um as our biological story seems to be it's much more of a top down um tale.

And you know take that for what you will but I I certainly still put stock in it and I still think directionally something like that it must be true for all the reasons you just said and so many more.

But I don't want to um you know b belabor the the uh ontological speculation too much or maybe I do. I don't know. I well let me I just want to add to that because you know in in a world where that happened right like we've we've received this extra divine knowledge we're not just from the soil from this evolutionary line um then you know where's that gone?

Where is that? And and what do we see hints of that in some of these stories that come out about whether it's remote viewing and these different things and I recently sat down here and interviewed someone who who came to the house and we uh he he's a professor of psychology here at University in England um who specializes in parapsychology and he was talking about how the results and the tests they're doing are showing that the human mind is capable of kind of detecting events before they happen.

So a great example of this is they'll flash an image on the screen which is either good or bad and what they're finding is like milliseconds before the image is shown the brain is already responding and there's all of this stuff you know also Dream ESP where they're um you know basically I can't remember exactly how the tests work, but they're they're showing that there is more than the statistical average of people able to predict um things that are going to happen based on the dreams they had the night before.

It's a it's a significant swing in the data. So you know we're talking here and I'm just like this is it was such a great conversation. And then he dropped something.

He was like you know one of the big things that we're looking at is data that shows that if you change your diet, um your abilities increase. So vegans vegans are generally doing a lot better than other people um in in these tests.

And then I don't know if you watched Jesse uh Jesse Michael's video it was a few months ago where he was talking about Jake Barber's sort of fiction story.

It was um it was I did see that one because I was in hopes that it was a new barber interview or it was like some uh continuation of that of that fictionalized story that was supposed to be like the you know true true events uh you know with coded in in false names and stuff like that.

For quick quick side note before Jake Barber came out to have his conversation with Ross Coldhart that you know went viral at least in the UFO realm he was releasing this book under a pseudonym called Sentinels of the Ether and um it was never confirmed 100% that it was him but internet sleuths basically deduced like this is him and now that's been even more confirmed.

But um only the first two chapters of that book were ever released. And it it's before everything gets I mean it's actually pretty exciting and well written, but it's before it gets really crazy in terms of like the ties between you know um your sort of uh military industrial complex aerospace contractors and the the legacy program and the phenomenon like it doesn't get that far unfortunately it stops way before that.

But okay so just wanted to preempt I think that's where you're going. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah I I actually forget that backstory so it was a helpful reminder for me because I I got lost in the narrative and I couldn't remember so that I think it's coming from the the the book Jesse was talking about this idea that it's it's really dark.

It's human trafficking of people from tribes and places where they're not they're not eating our bad diet they're not exposed to our modern culture. And the reason that was happening was because those people are way more sensitive to this psychotronic sort of component and you know it's it's a really beautiful piece of knowledge put into a very dark story.

But you know it it again it's like so if we really do have this sort of spirit of the divine this Promethean fire where is it? What if diets you know it's a great example of like diet yeah health environment uh technology all of these things are taking this away from us and have been for a long time uh which is a concerning thing and I actually think that that there's just a lot of anecdotal testimony that people are worried about that in in this whole movement, you know people behind the scenes.

So uh yeah it's interesting to consider whether our capabilities are vastly significant but because of these environmental factors they're dormant right yep yep yeah and sorry all the carnivore bros out there I I'm a meat eater myself I enjoy eating meat but I absolutely think that there's something to what you're saying man and and who cares what I have to say what did the Hermeticists say what do all the yogis say what do the Neoplatonists say they're basically all vegetarian every single every single one and what else do they do?

They commune with higher intelligence and they get downloads. You know like it's it's across the board like show me a mystical tradition that's in touch with higher consciousness that doesn't lead a simpler lifestyle.

I mean you know every single one of them lays out the recipe for how to do this and it always starts with deprivation you know removing sensory input to a degree detaching yourself from the bullshit of reality and we are just I mean they're talking about this in an ancient Athens or you know ancient India kind of context.

Think about what we have to deal with now man. It's the bombardment is on so many different layers of vapid nonsensical noise and bullshit. It's like we're we're so far away from whatever that signal is that they were all tapped into.

And I I think it has to be something like what you're saying not just a simpler diet but a much simpler lifestyle where uh you know we're I think as Plato put it sort of or Socrates within Plato's dialogue put it some something about like removal of the self from the world, the realm of sights and sounds or something like that.

That that is an absolutely key component I think of getting in touch with whatever this stuff is. Well you notice like in these I'm not this is this is something I've always wanted to dig more into I suspect you're more familiar with it but in a lot of these mystery traditions you end up having to go into a cave for like a day or two right yeah and you know you know as as an outsider you're like what a weird what a weird punishment you know like no wonder so few people are involved in this but then you know the the sensory deprivation thing and the guy I was meeting with this professor was they do it as well.

There's a method where you put um ping pong balls over someone's eyes of light. That's it. Yes yes he was talking about that so it's it's um that also raises questions uh about you know Plato and Socrates and what they knew and whether certain things were part of these traditions and and access to to knowledge and intelligence.

It sometimes and this is again is something that I suspect you've looked more into that I'm super curious about. It's just this is there a long term hermetic tradition which the system is, and this may be part of sort of the valet style control system is that that knowledge and that connection is only available under very strict circumstances.

And uh and that is what the Mystery traditions are these these ancient schools and maybe you know uh some of these powerful groups in in politics and in society participate in some of those.

Um it's such an interesting thought on top of all this other complexity as well. Yeah. Yeah and and I do want to draw like some level of um a line because you know we're talking about all these dark kinds of contact with some other force, you know, through the Nazis and, you know, this idea of like the the need for some maybe some mass toll needing to be paid right like the the Louch style or you know sacrifice style.

And and that's not for the most part what these groups were doing. You know if you if you read the Corpus Remeticum or the Platonists they're talking about this reality in the most beautiful transcendent non egotistical terms that have nothing to do with gaining, you know, egoic power or world power.

If anything is a complete rejection of that, right? It's like, you know, the Hermeticists talk about being reborn into the noose or whatever, into the like the into the divine mind or like waking up in the divine mind.

You know, Platinus and and Neoplatonic philosophers are talking about like these cosmic ascent kinds of meditations that will take you into the again the noetic realm and eventually bring you back to the sort of divine beauty and oneness that underpins all of reality Tohen um so so there's definitely similarities and differences.

They're definitely connecting to these higher forces and minds and and powers uh particularly when you get to the uh like the theurgic Neoplatonists like Iamblichus like they're directly talking about angelic uh daimonic uh godly communications and stuff like that through this these practices of theurgy um but it has again nothing to do with like the kind of stuff we were talking about before but then it begs the question excuse me if that stuff is real, maybe there is an inverted version of it that's real as well that does bring earthly power that does you know have something to do with like another kind of force you really don't want to be fucking with but maybe it it would give you massive amounts of worldly power.

So yeah I mean I don't know but again and this is what just captivates me so much about the Platonist and Hermeticis man. The level of knowledge displayed in these texts and and particularly among the Platonists is very high bar in terms of intellect and uh academic stuff.

I mean you will break your brain trying to read some of these texts. I mean go go try to like read a bunch of like Proclus uh texts, you know, like uh elements of theology and I mean it's like works of mathematical logic trying to get to the transcendent roots of reality in ways that I'm I I fail to comprehend, but I I'm in awe of, you know so the idea that these are like simplistic uh superstitious people that that we've like moved beyond totally wrong.

And if anything, I'm convinced that they were on to something that we badly need again, which is like this sort of synthesis between that kind of academic knowledge and um spiritual wisdom.

But anyway, yeah like I I do think that there is something there that it could be related to this whole broader conversation but again it feels like this whole way of thinking was either purposefully systematically suppressed or it just became uh so far outside the mundane egotistical capitalistic goals of modern people that it just has been buried by the sands of time.

I'm not sure which but I I think I'm I think I'm open to both possibilities. I I think there's definitely a uh something happened the last 2000 years where the form of religion that we use it changed.

You know like it's so interesting to read the Bible and to to really grapple with like what's going on here. You've got I don't know 10, 20 different prophets with their own books in the Old Testament.

And those are people who are having visions of God. You know they're they're fasting they're praying they're stimulating themselves to the point that they have these profound visions and they relay it.

And uh in the New Testament again you know similar things happen. The the people in the Bible are encouraged to participate in these very specific types of rituals and activities to have a direct experience with the divine but then what happens is through canonization and and and like systematizing scripture it it leads to a decline in that and I when I I used to be a Christian and I was training to be a a minister I was a preacher and uh you know when when I was part of a church and we were teaching we were very like just worried about people stimulating their own experiences.

The reason I mean part part of that is just really negative in retrospect and it's just a cultural thing that was just the way it was but there was a there was a logic to it which was if everybody has their own experience, it becomes impossible to unify everybody, right?

Because one person might say God is telling me this and another person says God is telling me this whereas if you have a single scripture the authority stays consistent.

And that means institutions and systems can last a lot longer and I don't know whether you know a lot of people really like to view um these sort of these forms of religion as some sort of grand conspiracy and I don't know if I buy into it on a council of Nicaea plotting everything.

I just don't think the history really bears that out. But it is interesting how these religions serve a function to create a barrier between us and direct experience of the spiritual because now revelation has already come to us through scripture.

So that means I don't need to go and have my own prophetic experience. I don't need to speak in tongues. I don't need to in fact it may well be a problem if I do and um that is just it's just very convenient isn't it because now we we no longer have that direct access to spiritual experience it's been written it's been discussed and anything that goes outside of those boundaries is dirty.

Absolutely yeah yeah even Christianity yeah yeah even even unsanctioned forms of Christianity as as you well know like you know all the Gnostic movements being just utterly bashed by the early church fathers like the all the Irenaeus stuff like that that's that's who it is I believe like he he is one of the only reasons for a long time I believe that we even knew of a lot of these Gnostic movements because he was writing about them under the the heading of heresiology right like these are the bad groups like don't don't be part of these Gnostic groups who are Christianing wrong.

You know like you know this group thinks that uh they can be just like Jesus and that's wrong. This group was a bunch of docetists and they don't think you know Jesus was literally crucified and raised from the dead they're wrong that this group thinks they can uh gain these powers that's wrong.

You know you know that kind of stuff. And we really don't even get those primary Gnostic texts until they're you know rediscovered and like the uh uh why it's it's it's uh it's uh escaping me.

Where where do they rediscover all those texts again? I don't know. I I oh like the uh the Dead Sea Scrolls or UCBS or yeah okay yes the the Dead Sea Scrolls and then there's the other one.

Okay. Um God I don't know we we both know it. I I'm confident we both know it. If you said it I probably know I yeah I'm not such an expert on on those those things but uh yeah that but you're right like Irenaeus, you Subis these people would document like this is bad, right?

The rules are here. Isn't it ironic as well? Because it's it's interesting hearing you a moment ago you're like look we we should draw a line here between these m this kind of light coming in through spiritual experience and these dark things and you know and when I think about positive spiritual experience and great things coming from it I look at the Greek philosophers um Socrates Plato and and the theory of forms and the analogy of the cave and all this sort of you know stuff that everyone's kind of relatively familiar with it was if it looks almost like lights coming in like we're we're right thinking in this brighter way.

And then the teachings of Jesus similarly um specifically the teachings of Jesus are so beautiful. I mean that the the Sermon on the mount and yes there's some things in there where you'd be a bit like that's a bit intense but the trajectory was towards self reflection um towards self questioning and so you have this to me it's like a trajectory but then this systematization happens and I don't know that you know what what were the objectives was it just brutal was it just cruel or was it just a mistake but you know the Gnostics obviously were were doing things there integrating Greek philosophy in a deeper way and deeper spiritual experience and questioning what could be it's you know the next time you see in my opinion really great light coming in is just before the American Revolution, this sort of philosophical tradition of questioning what does it mean to be free?

What does it mean to be liberal? How do we progress and generate and stimulate new ideas? But it it these moments come and as soon as we get them we're like we've made it right American Constitution's finished um the Bible has been completed.

There's this sense of like we got it and I wonder whether and if I this comes back to like DeLong and the Masonic spiritual Promethean stuff that's all throughout what they're doing this this vision about just the general ascension of mankind, of of of humankind, this this idea that we're on a journey of continuous learning and development.

And it looks to me like sometimes we get back on that journey and then we we think we've done it, you know? Yeah dude yeah Nagamadi Nagamadi Oh okay yeah can't can't believe I couldn't we didn't think of that.

You know thanks for bringing up the Prometheus thing again because this is another thing in the lore that I think is very adjacent to everything that we're talking about.

And there is this cryptic thing that was said by McCazl and I'm sure you've you've heard this that um uh Lavenda talks about this still all the time now saying that if you you want to understand um and this is is not a direct quote but it's a directionally accurate nutshell if you want to understand the phenomenon you need to look into Greek mythology particularly Prometheus and um this already apparently like um Lavenda and DeLong were like far down their sort of lane of research already but this really harmonized for Lavenda when he heard it it seems like from from what I've gathered but he also seemed kind of shocked by it.

Like what like why is this guy who is a not just a general in the air force but an a nuts and bolts expert I mean McCaslin has a PhD from MIT and is a like got where he got through technical prowess.

But here's that guy saying if you want to understand the phenomenon you need to think about the Prometheus thing. You know um have you spent any time thinking about that or trying to interpret that yeah I think the Promethean myth wasn't created to be subversive but I think in our current cultural context it is and maybe in a really good way in that it forces you to reconsider how we think about religion spirituality and our history and it it it it it sort of questions it on multiple levels.

So I'd almost view it as like if you want to I don't know if you want to like lift this really heavy box in front of you there's all sorts of ways you could go about it trying to pick it up in different ways and hurt your back it's impossible.

But you know maybe if you just wedge a stick down here and pull down, you know, you're going to be able to lift a lot faster. And I think the the the idea of thinking about Prometheus is it's subversive to our existing systems.

Because you know we we were talking about it earlier about this idea that something comes from the heavens and it mixes with the the soil of the earth. And in the Promethean mythology um you know you've got Prometheus who is a titan who rebels against the existing order of of how things have been set up.

The the Olympians are running things in a certain way and Promethean comes and steals fire from the heaven and breaks the order by giving human beings this extra wisdom there's there's some really important things here because we were saying earlier about how that sort of mirrors the serpents in the garden and when you do your comparative mythology stuff it's so striking to suddenly think wait a second an adjacent mythology looks at the most foundational story of our entire theology and flips it on its head because the serpent is now the good guy and Zeus is the bad guy.

And there's actually a conflict going on here. And I know having been a Christian and I see sometimes you know because I I'm I I really like to talk about these things and I like to question did Christianity get everything right?

And for some people as soon as you do that as soon as you question the role of the serpent and what this could all mean it's just mayhem but it's just very interesting to consider and actually some of the older mythologies again have this similar idea of Enki and Enlil and this idea that there's this this this being that is a a friend of humanity in a situation where humanity probably doesn't have any friends where our situation is quite bleak.

So um Prometheus is is fascinating in that context. The the applications for how we might think about UFOs and aliens and spirituality um I think firstly you've got this conflict between two sets of gods which may introduce a new logical concept through which you can better understand some of the chaos that's going on around us. You know, why don't they do this? Why are they doing this? Why like this?

And actually if there's multiple different groups of them suddenly some of those things might make sense, right? Are they hiding from us or are they hiding from something else?

Or is there actually some sort of dynamic going on between multiple groups which is why certain things are happening. It's a very useful new way of thinking and of course DeLong is encouraged to think about what's happening on earth a bit like a proxy war.

And he uses this analogy of Syria. If you go to Syria and you'd look and there's you know these there's this huge civil war going on but that's not really what's going on.

You you might view it as factions in Syria fighting but really it's Russia. It's the West there's some Israeli stuff going on there. And you know this the the the local Syrian people probably don't have they probably have 15% of the total story about the motivations, the reasons, the logistics, the scale, the stakes they but they see their localized context.

So that's a useful analytical overlay but I I think the other component here is I don't think it's just being used as a practical thing. I think there is a philosophical lineage associated with those people.

You'll know about Jim Ryder the vice president of space systems at Lockheed Martin who gives a talk at the Lucius Trust formerly the Lucius Trust it comes from Alice Bailey and Blavatsky this whole theosophical tradition it was called the Lucifer Trust because in their spirituality Lucifer was a bringer of light right so you've got this very this is this Hold on so what what is the tie between the Lucius Trust and the Lucifer Trust?

You have to go back to to Madame Blavatsky and uh you know she essentially between her and Crowley and a couple of other people responsible for bringing Eastern traditions over to the West and therefore questioning our existing religious institutions and our assumptions.

And so Blavatsky leads to this whole new way of thinking about things theosophy and um there's a lot of stuff in there I can't say I've ever read you know the secret doctrine but I've dipped in and you know I'm familiar with the basics.

But um funnily enough I know about all of this stuff because when I was a Christian I became a you know a a virulent opponent of the new age sort of worldview.

I was sort of very strong on how to debase on these things. So Blavatsky leads to Alice Bailey who is kind of the next generation in taking these ideas and spreading them and writes a lot of books and she's also associated with the founding of the UN which is very interesting too.

Wow um and so the UN has a a sort of a very open view on spirituality it's not necessarily Christian um but Alice Bailey starts the Lucifer Trust through which she publishes literature and um the the idea is that Lucifer is a light bringer right a an angelic force that's doing good.

And you know they they the the these people would be the first to say this isn't Satan it's not the Satan of the Bible but you know you only have to dig into a bit of some of the Freemasonic stuff to know that it is it's just that what we viewed the snake to be is in their eyes wrong, right?

It's a it's a flipping. But anyway so that's the Lucifer Trust becomes the Lucius Trust they have to rebrand it because everyone's kind of like why are you talking about Lucifer?

But that is the institution in which Jim Ryder talks about the garments of gods and all of these things. Yeah. So you know you And let's zoom out in who is Jim Jim Ryder and why is he relevant to this?

Yeah. Vice president of um advanced space systems and missile stuff at Lockheed. I forget so many people so many titles but senior guy at Lockheed and I think David Grush has pointed to him as being the person who was trying to offload some advanced technology to the ORSAP program this program that was you know involved Jacques Valet, Eric Davis, how put off all these people and there was this attempt to maybe move something from Lockheed Martin and give it to them to study to make some progress.

So Jim Ryder in this context would be very much in the no, extremely senior at the world's largest military aviation aerospace company is also somehow connected to this sort of occult publishing house which has deep theosophical um traditions.

And then you realize that other people at Lockheed Martin are involved in Tom DeLong's thing which is talking about Prometheus and and then you also get to the point where you you realize what was it that wooed the other Lockheed Martin executives?

Well, it was Peter Lovendo's thesis on cargo cults, which again flips the script on traditional Christianity and traditional religion, because the cargo cult thesis comes from these tribes in French Polynesia where they would see aircraft landing on these runways and offloading all of these goods, all of this food and stuff.

And so their response was to build their own versions of these runways and airport towers out of sticks because they believed if they did this, it would lead to them getting these resources.

And so the cargo cult it's not even a thesis. I mean, it's just a reality. It shows that that humans tend to try and replicate things they don't understand to try and create similar results.

So the idea is that could our ancient traditions actually, in many cases, be attempts to try and replicate things we didn't understand? And that's very subversive to Christianity, too.

Okay. So you've got different vice presidents from different parts of Lockheed Martin. Um, you've got General Neil McCaslin and the Prometheus mythology, you've got Tom DeLong's Masonic symbolism on his guitars, and in an early interview, he says he's interested in the ascension of man.

This is what he says in an interview with George Snapp in 2011. That's very like Manly P. Hall kind of Masonic language. I wonder if he was talking to Levenda by then, because obviously one of Lavenda's big preoccupations is the whole celestial ascent, you know, sort of motif.

Yeah. Well, he he he wasn't. So this this was twenty eleven. He meets Levenda November twenty fourteen, which is why it's even more striking because it's this is kind of uh a video I made recently.

I came to this conclusion, and to be honest, a lot of this came from uh our mutual friend Josh Polarity, who made a video like a year ago showing the Smithsonic symbolism on Tom's guitars and just pointing it some of these things out.

I think DeLong is a he's a seeker. He he probably joined the Masons with a view to like, this is interesting, I want to understand things. And maybe that led to I didn't even know he joined the Masons.

That's interesting. I did not know that. Well, I I d I I I don't want to say that he did, because okay. There's no, you know, there's no like certificate that he's published, but there's a picture of him in Masonic garb, and then there's all the symbolism on the guitars.

There's the statement I'm interested in the the Ascension of Man, which it's it's this kind of theosophical Manly P. Hall type thing, you know? Manly P. Hall also being connected to all of this Alice Bailey Plavatsky stuff.

Yeah. So one of my biggest early esoteric influences for sure was reading Secret Teachings of All Ages and just marveling at that. You know, he was like 20 when he wrote that?

Guy was unreal. Yeah. I know. I know. Yeah. It's interesting. It's I I find it fascinating just to hear what someone with that level of knowledge and the the people he met, how he views things and the sorts of directions that he goes in is um is interesting.

I I never finished uh The Secret Teachings of All Ages, but that's on my list of, you know, holiday books for sure. Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's one of those that you can definitely just kind of read chunks of because there's so many distinct, different it's almost like an esoteric encyclopedia.

Yeah. You know, like that's just like it's kind of drawn together, but it's most like you can just almost jump around within it. But yeah, yeah, what whatever he was tapped into, man, is something that I wish I had.

I because I certainly didn't have that kind of I still don't have that kind of drive and discipline. Um yeah, that's very interesting, man. And these and these links are so fascinating and and murky because really what it comes down to is with these people like Ryder, who I may have had a conversation about recently, that I was told not to say the name, even though the name was being said over and over.

I I'll just I mean, I'm just gonna say it at this point because it's gonna make the conversation overly convoluted and and uh opaque if I continue with this.

But but it was a name that I was not supposed supposed to say, which I did not say in the podcast with with Eric Davis out of respect for him because he asked me not to.

But I talk about him elsewhere on the channel already, so it's it would be weird to start not saying his name now. Um but yeah, like the the main question then is where and why did this interest come about?

Because the one of the other things I was told in that interview is that he would show up to work early and sit there and be reading Blavatsky in his office.

Wow. Yeah. So this guy was deeply into the esoteric, like that you know, like not just speaking at this Lucio's trust um and uh, you know, talking about this sort of grab bag of esoteric ideas that when you even as someone who knows what he's talking about when I listen to those talks, it feels very like all over the place to me.

And it's like like there's all these built in under it's it's it would be kind of like if you just started jumping into this podcast without having listened to any other podcast ever before.

It's like there's all this stuff that's being talked about that I don't have the prerequisites for. And like listening to those talks kind of feels like that. And even again, as someone who kind of knows these concepts and this worldview, I'm confused still.

And it may just be because his talks were not good and they were not like very well laid out, and he was sort of there as this uh respected, highly accomplished elder who's also in like interested in and initiated into these ideas.

Um it still feels like there's this like larger culture that they all get that we don't get. You know, it's just it's a weird, um, it's a weird feeling.

But then, like I said, you have to wonder what what just what came first? Like, was it his interest in the esoteric that came first? Or did he discover something within these programs that made him realize oh shit, this is how it works?

And now we're getting back into when I said before there's like another direction I I wanted to go. It circles right back into this because um it's uh one of the other Lockheed high ranking guys is his name's Charles Chase, right?

That's is that right? Oh, I think it's Charles Chase. Yeah, yeah, and he's very interesting because I don't know his ties directly when it comes to someone like Ryder, but he has emerged in internet lore and in verified internet lore because it came from uh the mouth of Jeffrey Kreipel himself, the you know, the the um professor of religious studies at Rice University, who's written a ton of ton of books.

Brilliant guy. He said both on Danny Jones's show and on my show that Charles Chase, the Lockheed executive, flew him to MIT to speak at a conference about human levitation.

And he was just so confused like, why does this, you know, executive from Lockheed want me to go to MIT to speak about human levitation to a bunch of like technical guys?

You know, so it's like these things circle back again and again. And um, you know, so so back to the could there be some strain of occult technology that was discovered and hidden by some small group that now people like Lockheed, with all of their technical prowess, are looking at and they're just like, Whatever this is, it's got nothing to do with what we're doing.

It's got nothing to do with uh uh, you know, traditional propulsion or physics or whatever. And we're just looking at this thing like, I don't know, man. Um it it feels like there could be something like that going on, doesn't it?

When when you see all these pieces emerging. And then there's this weird quote where where did I just hear this? Um, it was somebody I was just talking to, I think on the tour with Chris.

Oh, I know what it was. It was it was Jesse was talking to someone. Diana Pasulka. I was thinking just of this right now. Is this the levitation sigils?

It may be very adjacent to that. It's like somebody posits one thing to Hell Put off, like, wow, it really seems like blah blah blah. And then Hal responds with, yeah, or maybe in uh the mid in the medieval era, yes, somebody mastered uh human levitation and encased themselves in some kind of metal.

Dude, I was just thinking about that. Yeah, what is the story? What is the story? Oh, I I I I I I think I had the same level of of detail as you, but it was so striking because it was like, yeah, it was literally looking at these two different lineages, like how would levitation work?

And then, like you said, put off, who would be the expert on this? Points towards, you know, or could it actually be the use of these sigils? I guess probably referring to the levitating saint oh Theresa Vavila.

Oh, maybe I think there's multiple, right? Um I was thinking of uh Cupertino who who would levitate after like fervent praying and fasting. He just couldn't couldn't stop levitating.

Um they they locked him up, yeah. Um, dude, it's it's stuff like that really tickles me. Because then I'm I'm then I'm like, is it that simple? Right? Is it that simple?

Like sigils, and then it seems so well. How does sigils come into it? What what is the sigil part? I think it's it's like uh symbols, right? The use of symbols would stimulate levitation.

And there was an interview, and I couldn't find it again, where um Peter Lavenda and um uh oh gosh, I keep wanting to say I I want to say Whitley Webb, but I'm thinking of Whitley Streber. They're in a conversation and they talk about it too briefly, and then they go on to something else, this idea that symbols may have...

And then you see all these weird symbols on UFOs sometimes and yeah, it's so interesting. I find that fascinating. Well well let's let's dive in a little bit further and see if we can uh you know sate some of the the hunger they left you with and but we're just gonna evoke more of course because I'm not gonna come to any final answers.

But um yeah man if you look into these old so so by the way this is not restricted to Christians this this levitation like um Iamblichus this Neoplatonist who you know is sort of this not the source of theurgy but he's really the core philosopher who promulgates this practice of theurgy and then causes like future neoplaton like basically every Neoplatonic philosopher from him on is not only doing philosophy and academic stuff and and stuff in the head, but they're doing these theurgic rituals, which are like you know um you have to like read books that we don't have anymore, of course, to really understand what they're up to.

The main one is Chaldean oracles which we have like frame fragments of but uh he in his um biography is said to have levitated when he's you know deep in ritual or prayer or whatever.

And you know there's like these episodes where his students ask him about it and he just laughs and is like oh ha ha ha yeah you know no that's definitely not true.

But then you're like it but it feels like he's just being humble sort of um in in a sort of like yeah you know whatever the gods bless me with it's not me it's them like is is kind of always the vibe amongst these guys.

So so um and then also in a more practical kind of uh vein that we still have to this day if you look at these texts that actually teach you how to make like planetary talismans and stuff like that, they they all have these really fascinating esoteric uh sigils on them that are supposed to be sort of like um I don't know like correspondences or relay points to these higher powers and you know each one of them has a sort of different use case and you have to use this whole completely different ritual technology that um is built on the natural sort of rhythms of reality right like you don't you don't do certain rituals unless it's at the appointed hour.

Like it has to be you know during this part of the moon cycle or that like these um seasons or whenever these powers are active that's when you do these sorts of rituals so this is what I mean when I say you're you'll never get to that stuff if there if there's a there there with that stuff you'll never get there through like material science and you know modern engineering.

It's a totally different um you know vein to pursue and it's a vein that has been completely diminished and written off by almost everyone as nonsense, right? But maybe there is something there and maybe during a time in history when there were absolutely no barriers and no rules around what could be explored aka World War II maybe just there were crazy breakthroughs and and levels that they were willing to take that to that did lead to breakthroughs, right?

Yeah. So may maybe that's where you have these weird strains of technological um sorts of uh hockey stick inflection points that happened in a very small vacuum and then were cloistered and protected by a by a select group of people or something like that.

And then maybe like an of course like we're reaching with each one of these pieces of speculation now maybe through like what you've highlighted in your work maybe those are the mechanisms by which these secrets are preserved right who knows I I I think the I I I agree with everything you're saying, the trajectory of it these these uh these two strands of like technological developments and realizing that you you probably need both right that there there may be a leap there that's available that the the example that comes to mind is what Jesse talked about where he was basically kind of bringing Richard Hoagland's work back to life about the occult NASA stuff.

Oh yeah and about the timing of these launches like they're overwhelmingly are done on Wolpergisnot or Beltain or you know whatever these these windows between worlds open up on these these particular days.

And given the complexities of launching things into space and the need for planetary you need to have this planet here so you can get this gravitational impact here. And it's like a delicate thing.

And so you would think they would overwhelmingly focus on just the practical of like how do we make sure this rocket gets to the place it needs to get to but then they end up aligning these launches with specific days which are associated with pagan holidays and festivals.

And of course the names the terminology and a bunch of other stuff around it is just kind of very interesting. Yeah. And and always some kind of Greek god on the side of the yes the vessels themselves too usually and then the badges as well right which by now everyone's been digesting these like insane badges with wild symbolism.

So you know I actually think that that's a very practical example of something utterly bizarre that is going on which seems to indicate that the rules about how access to space works and about how certain things operate are are rules that have been made aware like 5,000 years ago.

In fact our our most ancient traditions are aligned with those principles not our most modern ones so yeah it's you know there needs to be a video where all of this is fleshed out in the most total way possible because it's so it's ultimately the biggest stab in the heart of the materialist paradigm isn't it really yeah it certainly feels like it it certainly feels like that there's like a a certain amount of at at minimum a certain amount of respect being paid right and then this makes me think of all the Tim Taylor stuff too about like um what does he say he he said so again there's this another piece of lore for people that don't know there's this guy named Tim Taylor who who came to light from Diana Pasulka's first book um who's this guy who ostensibly is like a NASA mission control controller but he seems to be involved in all of these different intelligence groups and um seems to have access everywhere including really hard to access places like the Vatican archives and seems to just be this uh secret holder type guy who knows everything about everything.

And he then it comes out claims to be in touch with quote unquote the others or the sponsors or or or the whatever he calls them. Yeah the hammer which is like this angelic being or something right and um he says stuff like this like they basically need to give you permission to to go off the planet like whoever they are.

Yes. And then he does these protocols that that keep him fit to stay in touch with whatever these things are which again circles back into things like diet like uh like having to live a certain kind of lifestyle to keep the channels open and stuff like that.

So so yeah it it and and again take all of these anecdotes for what you will because they're coming he certainly hasn't come out and been like yeah bro I'm doing you know meditating two hours a day eating a vegan like he he's remained behind the scenes and has completely refused to do any interviews.

So who knows? You know, but it's it's there's certainly again there's always there's a piece of lore for that. It's like anything you come up with there's another piece of supporting lore.

That that's for sure. That's the ultimate skill that you develop after years of this right it's like I've got a story for that. Yeah. No it's it's yeah it that that I think there is something there though.

Again it it's it comes back to these practical examples whether it's like timing these launches with pagan holidays or whether it's the reality of remote viewing like there are there are tangible examples where there does seem to be this trajectory.

And even you know I I've heard I've not gone deep on the tel telepathy tapes. I listened to it I loved it it was beautiful. I've heard some people say that there were some issues with the process so I remain agnostic.

But there's a lot of these um there's a lot of things happening which almost seem it's almost as if it's like timed, you know, it's like wake up time, start to realize that that something's changing, you know?

It does feel like that. For for better or worse, it does feel like this idea of it and and this is another thing that's in the lore right is it is it Lakatsky who said something like if we we knew what our true capacities were that we wouldn't be what is it we wouldn't we wouldn't fear anything or yeah we wouldn't be worried or something and and he seems to be alluding to this that that there's some core psychical consciousness component at play here with not just the phenomenon but what whatever humans are.

And then you know again I could speculate on on what that means and how that fits in with other pieces of things we've talked about in this episode and elsewhere.

But um it does seem to be central. And you know maybe I should just pose that question to you more directly because it's one I've been asking people about.

I asked a bunch of people this at Contact in the desert and I should have asked you um on camera while while you were there but it it is generally this relationship between consciousness and the phenomenon and how that seems to be that distance seems to be shrinking and and I could point to so many examples of of why that seems to be but um yeah I guess how broadly do you view that and why do you think that is that this you know that these two things seem to be getting closer and closer um hmm there's a you know I spend a lot of time making content about is this a Psyop right and like you know really sympathizing with that idea and there's there's a there's that side to me which is like could this all just be an attempt to draw us, you know, to raise our hopes, to raise our fears about our situation and then to raise our hopes and to pull us in a certain direction and you know I I I I I think there's I do sometimes think there's something to that but then there's another side to me which looks at this and it looks at the trajectory of a lot of things and thinks are we also at the same time maybe there is some sort of attempt to frame a narrative around this thing that's happening because there is a thing happening.

And I that that that also you know weighs on me this this idea that it's it sometimes feels like an alarm clock, you know, like it's ringing and it's been ringing really loudly for a long time.

Um I I you know I I sympathize with the general notion of human evolution whatever broken thing that we are I I sympathize with the idea that that we're we're in the middle of a process that's maybe been stalled halted slowed down by systems of power that have just kind of perpetuated.

And when I say perpetuated I mean that like they're not good, there's a lot of evil activity going on, there's some terrible stuff, but evil begets evil and control begets control.

It's just ev everything we've talked about um today comes back to these sort of dual principles, these dual systems one of which is like do human beings remain committed to going to the high priesthood of what of whatever the thing is today whether that's the church, whether it's the government, whether it's maybe even the aliens themselves it's like this external force is going to save and protect us.

And on the flip side we have these long term traditions where certain institutions are happy to play that role of the high priesthood. We you know the monarchy never wants to end.

The Vatican never wants to change its principles. The government never really wants to do anything that's not risky. So these existing systems continually will persist existing they will just continue to exist unless we question the existing models of governance.

And I I think the only way that would happen is if we break this this tendency towards I need a high priest, I need a I need Lou Elizondo to tell me the truth.

I need this thing to tell me. So the trajectory towards consciousness sometimes I wonder if this sort of Gnostic idea of like individual experience of individual reckoning with something bigger you know it's like it we just need to do it.

And uh and funnily enough you know disclosure won't come through Lua Lizondo you know not that anyone even thinks that's day in 2026 but you know we're we're waiting for someone to give us the answers but it is is that just the same thing we've been doing for for a long time.

So totally yeah again you know I I I love what was it you said bro anthropology. I I love bro anthropology and I think that's all we've already got right because that no one's coming to give us the answers.

So yeah there's certainly nobody at a a mainstream university who's encouraging people to to look into these things. Yeah exactly yeah man yeah um yeah but I do think that this relationship between consciousness and the phenomenon is an empowering one though because it does speak to what you're saying is that if that's true, that then is the the conduit through which you can make disclosure for yourself, right?

Because if it's if it it does have something deeply to do with consciousness, if it does have to do with like reaching these higher states of consciousness or altered states that we've sort of hinted at throughout this conversation, then you don't need that authority to tell you anything because you have your own way to reach it.

Yes. Um but also at the same time it is like the least uh transparent and most thorny highway to your destination because you you d you continually if you have any shred of epistemic responsibility when you're on that road you have to continuously question like what is my what what's just my psychology here?

What is my upbringing what is my um all of my preconceived template of reality projecting onto whatever that other is and you've got to have just an unbelievable suite of different kinds of knowledge to even begin to answer those questions responsibly.

And again that's why I look to these ancient philosophers because I think they're the only ones who who really truly bothered to prepare themselves philosophically and ontologically and epistemologically to do that.

And in a lot of ways they actually treated all of those um prerequisite steps of um exercising the intellect so that it is prepared to collide with the mystery and then actually do something responsible with it when it when it re congeals back into an ego that's in the world. You know, like whether it's Plato talking about divine madness or exiting the cave, having these noetic moments, making direct apprehensions of that other realm of forms, of gods, of whatever. Like, I don't really want an...

And this is gonna sound egotistical me even saying this I don't really want an unprepared you know intellectually infantile mind telling me what that stuff is. You know, like I I that's not going to do it for me.

So so I think that it's like the greatest revelation ever that consciousness is is the link and you don't need anyone else's um yes disclosure. Yes. But at the same time it's like the scariest because it's the same thing you were worried about when you said you were inside the um you know inside of the Christian mainstream like all these people having their own experiences has all these problems that are that are associated with it.

And I and that point stands for me. You know and it maybe it doesn't stand because it's like no we need this one monolithic doctrine that everyone agrees on.

That's not what I think. But I also think man not all revelations are created equal that's absolutely for sure. Yes. Yeah I I I the the way you put it there about that direct conscious link being the thing and I I was just thinking again about we were talking about these mystery schools why is it that they don't go out and evangelize for everyone like do it like this but it might be that that's exactly what the problem is right that that that we always are looking for the person to tell us the thing.

And so the the reason the mystery schools don't evangelize they don't grow fast is because the only way to gain that knowledge and experience is to do it personally.

And once you understand that knowledge and experience you realize you can't give it to anyone else and so going out and evangelizing it is not the productive way to progress the mission you know yeah I've always I've always wondered that and I you know I'm not I've never partaken in any of these things but it does align with that general model um and it's it it is scary because everything that we are doing I was just this um we have this new Green Party leader here in England called Zach Polansky and he's refreshing because he's talking he's cutting across the left and right dichotomy he's breaking down but then even him now I look at him and I just think what is it we're just it's all part of the same system it's part of the same modality it's part of the same process of Zach Polansky will save me if I vote for him in the democratic election.

You know it's like yeah there's some I don't know what you call this, but you know DeLong specifically his advisors said humanity has a tendency to organize around a priesthood.

And I just think it's so true. It's it's it's our biggest weakness isn't it and there's something in us that's maybe that's the one of the things that was programmed in the Anunarchy slave race model right it's this tendency towards being organized by someone else and maybe the thing that Prometheus brought us was a different energy which is one of of direct connection with consciousness you know it's it's interesting to consider these things.

Yeah. Yeah it's very interesting to consider these things. What what what is your main sort of uh fascination at the moment in terms of like the most uh sort of glimmering horizon that you're trying to go toward in in your research like what do you think is the most interesting thing that maybe not enough people are paying attention to um it's it's it's funny to say it because we just spent like an hour going just really riffing on this beautiful you know vision of of direct engagement with consciousness.

And I I was thinking about this whilst we were talking about how my interests right now are just not that. Like I'm I'm so focused on the deep states and mapping out this connection.

But the the one thing that I hope I can show through this whole thing is that and I was I I even have been thinking about writing something and uh I had this idea of a title I it's it would never this would never be the title but it was like UFOs for now or for never the the idea in my head was like there's a there's a version of of this UFO thing which which is available to us now which is the version where we keep going back to these same people and asking them to tell us the truth.

And I think the by exploring this deep state thing it's going to reveal the people we're asking to reveal the truth to us are so enmeshed with this machine which is just going to perpetuate that they're just not the right people to tell us what truth is.

The UFO's for never the for now and for never is is is the truth which would come if we moved away from the machine. So in some ways it comes back to this this idea of the high priesthood and the please sir give me some more kind of mentality so I I hope at the end of all of this I can I can show that that the actual you know pull pull the curtain down from the beast, show the connections all the way up to Epstein and just reveal that you know every single person that that tends to come out and try and give us something it's it's all part of the same philosophical approach, this this old world of power and um yeah so so once once I've been through the swamp hopefully I can bring back a a pearl.

Yeah we'll see yeah dude no you will you'll bring back a lot of pearls I have no doubt so in the beginning of the conversation you said something like Man I wish I didn't have to be so responsible in my videos because I just want to like talk about it and tell people what I think.

Yeah. Let's just fucking spend the last five or ten minutes doing that. Like w if if you had to guess based on all of this research you've done on the deep state, on these systems of power, on this stuff that you know flowed out of Nazi Germany and then you know either resettled into power systems in America and throughout the world or created this breakaway civilization, whatever.

What do you think in a nutshell we're looking at here? Like like what what do you think the hidden story is I think the big shock is that we tend to view our governments as recruiting criminals.

I think what we're looking at is criminals running the world. I think that's the big shock. I think uh you know you could view you could view it as business interests you could view it as defense but I think the criminal element is vast and it's big um and I think trafficking is very important to understand.

That's something that's been surprising to me is to understand arms trafficking, drug trafficking and um how those networks exist and what what are those things? They're essentially they are transnational mechanisms used to bypass sort of national law national process or even international sanctions.

What it does is it creates a layer of the economy which can't be controlled. And that was developed a long time ago and it's the same groups I don't want to say families it's not fair to talk about families you know but it's it's the same groups it's the same lineages that uh like I said were behind um the old opium families um there is I I you know another lens through which to view it again it it comes back to this idea of of the monarchies never want to dissolve.

And I think here in England there's this idea that the monarchy's just receding but I I I I think there have been attempts to maintain power through whether it's this this drug industry and all of this stuff and and th so this is the wild thing is is that all completely overlaps with the people who seized this knowledge.

So you know when you look at Epstein and Maxwell you look at them that they are positioned as paedophiles, scandalous people, corrupt business people. But I think the the truth is they're part of a a an ongoing series of people connections families that sort of exist outside and you know I'm not the first person to say that but I think in UFO world there is just a tendency to to look at the government to look at the aerospace companies and I don't want to like what GURB is doing is like unreal.

It's amazing. Right. And we need to do that. But it's just that the ultimate control is outside of that and my biggest fear is that you know what if that is just being run by criminals?

What if the the the global crime syndicate the sort of global alliance of mafia basically are married to the corporate elites in a way that's it kind of unimaginable.

And uh Yeah it's at it's at such a deep level that you're so enmesh enmeshed with the system that it isn't even really possible for you to do crime because you're above any of the mechanisms that would execute justice on everyone else.

Because you control those mechanisms or or or you have the ability to remain untouched as you have other people do the dirty work and you remain in this like high to untouchable tower.

Exactly yes yes they're so abstracted um and it's so prolific it's it's it's just it's wild to behold the whole thing. Um, so yeah, that's what I think is going on. And, you know, all the relationships are charting out, and I just need time to show it, but...

But it's it's pretty wild. Yeah. Well how I mean I I know this might be an impossible question to answer, particularly this deep into the conversation, but but how then does that do you think fold back into the UFO disclosure conversation?

Um so what I I I think that something happened in the 90s um a bunch of things happened there was this huge transition. So firstly one of the weird things about all of this is these Nazis end up working with Israel.

That's very strange. That's insane. Yeah like under under what under what uh in what way well the first the first thing that happens is you've got Meya Lansky's national crime syndicate and Lansky and there's a lot of Jewish mobsters who are Zionists and uh but they're they're working hand in hand with the Italian mafia but and they're both um allied with post war Nazi groups.

And it's very hard to understand that. And you know also Otto Scorzini goes over to the Mossad and and trains them in 1963. And then after that period I think there's a a sort of a weird the Nazis and the mafia absolutely in some cases literally get married and also just generally are fused together.

The Mossad seems to get fused in there too there are some very interesting examples of operations where they work together which no one talks about but I'll be able to bring those out so that's a whole thing.

But then what happens is those Nazis start to die like the real Nazis there's obviously a lineage that continues but Otto Skozeni dies, Hiaomar Shak dies, all of these big names that you would associate with the postwar Nazi state they die.

But the Israeli state grows and then there's the software revolution and this is where the promise software scandal is huge because this was basically a piece of software that was sold around the world even to many places that house sensitive aerospace and nuclear stuff like Sandia Labs.

This software was sold all around these places Robert Maxwell was involved in that and it basically gave whoever was controlling that software it gave them complete visibility. So you know just just the digital revolution gives a new scale of power to people um and people will say that came from the Mossad and I don't doubt that the Mossad was involved in a big way.

I just think that there's there's other groups involved in that too um but that this is this is key is that there's a swing in in the power of this group and then the Berlin war falls so you've got this trajectory towards Israel away from the Nazis a bit the Berlin war falls and all the companies that are involved in this start to fold flop and there's this big transition that happens and I think and I've really not dug into like post nineties how it all works but I think what happens is something goes terribly wrong.

You know like like the it there's a splintering there's a splitting all of these groups that were trying to work together maybe can't now because there's no communists to to hate together, you know like I was joking with someone recently that when I lived in London I was in a flat there was four of us there's always one person in the flat that everyone kind of just can't get on with right it's the tribal human mentality where and then if that person moves out then it becomes someone else.

It wasn't their fault we're just tribal like that. And the the fall of the Berlin Wall removes the the the boogeyman that we're all focused on I think there was um a splintering there where you know maybe the the Israeli component continues and there's also a Russian thing and maybe those two things are kind of getting on but they're not and maybe there's something else over here.

And you know then also when we look at terrorism in the Middle East, what really is that you know is is it just rogue sort of Islam stuff with a bit of CIA sponsorship or is it maybe part of this lineage?

So I I I think a lot of the geopolitical mess that we see may be better understood by some of this. And um you know I I I look at all of that stuff and so then basically to answer your question when it comes to the UFO issue this is one thing where I'm a bit unsure because what we're pushing for is disclosure from our government.

And is it possible that components of our government have been trying to fight this other hydra that emerged after the war? And is it possible that we're about to pull our own trousers down by forcing disclosure of our own information?

Meanwhile there's an adversary out there who's not going to participate. And that may be one of the reasons why there's a bit of a stalemate about who talks first right it's no one wants to talk when there's still people out there who are never going to talk.

So I this is this is all you know you you you've gone from like history to sort of intuition into the future but that's something I look at and I think you know what it what is it that we're really going to do if we talk about our own state of affairs?

Is it necessarily a good thing? Um so yeah. Brother I'm glad you're doing what you're doing. You're you're digging into some unbelievably compelling rich and scary areas too like are there I I I have to imagine there are certain pieces of information or or certain loops or leaps of intuition you make that you're like I don't know if I could talk about this.

But yeah I'm glad you're talking about it and and I I'm really looking forward to seeing what else you do and I would love to have future conversations, man.

Dude, I would love to do it too. This has been just a total joy uh it's fun to whiz around I'd like it's like three or four different interlocking things we've just spun around.

It's been super cool. So uh really enjoyed it man and thanks that's how my brain works man. I can't help it. I can't help it. I think I'm hopefully people enjoyed it.

Hopefully you enjoyed it and thanks for doing it dude. Yeah good right on