Third Eye Drops - Eric Davis on Skinwalker Ranch and UAP

• Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKiQselyENQ
• Title: "What a Physicist Actually Encountered at Skinwalker Ranch | Dr. Eric Davis"
• Channel: THIRD EYE DROPS with Michael Phillip
• Published: 2026-08-24
• Duration: 2:25:58
• Participants: Michael Phillip and Eric Davis
• Extraction: complete English auto-generated YouTube captions retrieved with youtube_transcript.py --timestamps, 2026-08-30
• Fidelity note: automated captions may contain errors, especially in names, acronyms, and overlapping speech
• Analysis: ../../sources/davis-career-and-claims; ../../sources/skinwalker-ranch; ../../sources/gerb-uap-open-source-researcher

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[00:00:00.320] You did spend a lot of time at the
[00:00:02.399] infamous Skinwalker Ranch. What is your
[00:00:04.720] best guess [music] at what's going on
[00:00:06.400] there?
[00:00:06.879] >> Well, it's a precognitive sentient
[00:00:09.280] phenomenon. I had um a telepathic
[00:00:12.000] contact with the dark with a black
[00:00:13.599] shadow that unfolded in a grove of trees
[00:00:16.240] at the at the old homes pioneer
[00:00:18.480] homestead. Um, before that happened,
[00:00:21.520] just minutes before that happened, Colum
[00:00:23.519] and I witnessed a a a white orb hovering
[00:00:26.720] a a a foot a yard above the ground from
[00:00:29.840] where we
[00:00:30.400] >> was psychic connection to [music] this
[00:00:31.840] black shadow light.
[00:00:32.960] >> I was uh look using the night vision
[00:00:35.040] binoculars to kind of search around. I'm
[00:00:37.040] looking for another orb. This dark spot
[00:00:39.760] appears [music] and it starts growing in
[00:00:41.600] size, but it grows in size to envelope
[00:00:44.320] the canopy of this grove of trees. I
[00:00:47.680] want to move the binoculars away from my
[00:00:51.360] face, turn and tell Colum what I'm
[00:00:53.199] seeing. Can't. I'm frozen. I can't move
[00:00:55.199] a muscle. All I see is this black
[00:00:57.760] shadow. And the next thing I know, this
[00:01:00.719] incredibly loud, multiple metallic- like
[00:01:03.535] [music] voices uh are in my head, pretty
[00:01:07.280] loud, and it says, "We are here. We are
[00:01:09.040] watching you." I interviewed uh Legacy
[00:01:13.119] Aerospace Corporation that no longer
[00:01:14.960] exists because it got absorbed by
[00:01:16.400] another one after [music] the turn of
[00:01:18.080] the millennium. The uh executive
[00:01:20.640] administrative assistant of the of the
[00:01:22.640] crash retrieval program that this
[00:01:24.560] company was contracted to run at an Air
[00:01:27.520] Force facility. And uh so she's in
[00:01:29.759] charge of security, in charge of the
[00:01:31.360] skiff. She oversees those guys and she
[00:01:34.640] has access to uh the six or so intact
[00:01:39.360] UFO craft that her program received from
[00:01:42.880] the recovery team.
[00:01:48.799] Eric Davis, it is safe to say, has one
[00:01:51.040] of the wildest resumes in physics. He's
[00:01:53.840] a man who worked on the Voyager missions
[00:01:55.840] on advanced and theoretical propulsion,
[00:01:58.640] you know, warp drives, wormholes, the
[00:02:00.880] quantum vacuum, zero point energy, and
[00:02:03.280] then somehow found himself investigating
[00:02:05.920] UFOs, the high strangeness and
[00:02:08.000] paranormal activity at Skinwalker Ranch,
[00:02:10.399] and then later worked inside classified
[00:02:12.560] programs like OAP, studying the
[00:02:14.959] phenomenon and trying to get to the
[00:02:16.879] bottom of the UFO legacy program. The
[00:02:19.760] novelty really starts ramping up for
[00:02:21.599] Davis in the '9s when he takes a job
[00:02:23.599] with NIDS, the National Institute for
[00:02:25.920] Discovery Science, and he later worked
[00:02:28.319] closely with someone I've talked about
[00:02:30.000] many times on the channel physicist Hal
[00:02:32.720] Putoff, one of the founders of the
[00:02:34.400] infamous Project Stargate. And we are
[00:02:36.879] sincerely just like scratching the
[00:02:39.440] veneer here. Go lurk his LinkedIn, look
[00:02:42.720] at his full CV. It's truly a thing to
[00:02:45.440] behold. In this one, we're going to get
[00:02:47.040] into what Eric found and experienced at
[00:02:49.440] Skinwalker Ranch. Uh his time in the OAP
[00:02:52.480] program, investigating the alleged uh
[00:02:55.599] classified crash retrieval programs,
[00:02:58.480] what he says the government and select
[00:03:00.640] defense contractors actually know about
[00:03:03.840] UFOs and the phenomenon. One more thing
[00:03:06.720] before we launch into this. Late in the
[00:03:08.480] conversation, the last maybe 50, 45
[00:03:10.800] minutes or so, we start deep diving this
[00:03:12.720] topic of the legacy program, crash
[00:03:15.040] retrievals, some um companies and people
[00:03:18.640] that Eric was directly involved with. Um
[00:03:22.560] he asked me not to name these companies
[00:03:25.440] or this person, although I do know who
[00:03:28.000] they are, and many of you probably will
[00:03:30.319] too based on the context, maybe even
[00:03:32.480] based on things he said in previous
[00:03:34.239] interviews. Um I'm going to respect his
[00:03:36.720] wishes. I did remove the name he asked
[00:03:39.360] me to remove throughout the duration of
[00:03:41.680] this podcast. At least I think I did
[00:03:43.360] because he said it a lot of times and I
[00:03:45.040] did try to go uh in silence or cut all
[00:03:47.599] of those out. That said, many of you are
[00:03:51.120] going to know who this person is. I talk
[00:03:53.920] about them in other videos. Other uh
[00:03:56.400] even bigger people on this platform talk
[00:03:59.760] about this person as well. I'm sure he
[00:04:02.319] will come up again in future
[00:04:03.680] conversations, but for this one, I am
[00:04:06.159] respecting Eric's wishes not to name
[00:04:08.560] him. So, apologies if anyone finds that
[00:04:11.599] annoying. And with that, let's get into
[00:04:13.519] it. Uh, smash the buttons and stuff.
[00:04:15.760] Hope you enjoy. You know, I think to me
[00:04:18.880] and most people watching, they look at
[00:04:21.199] you and they go, "Oh, this guy's an
[00:04:22.560] insider. He's he's seen this stuff. He's
[00:04:24.400] been inside classified programs. He he
[00:04:26.720] knows things." You were, you know,
[00:04:28.479] around OAP. you were around Halputoff
[00:04:31.120] and uh Bigalow and you know all of these
[00:04:33.600] things Skinwalker Ranch
[00:04:35.360] >> uh I'm only in an insider in so far as
[00:04:38.240] my exposure to the classified DAA DIA
[00:04:42.720] program was concerned in that I was uh
[00:04:45.680] uh uh given eligibility for access and
[00:04:48.880] need to know or the classified programs
[00:04:52.080] that we were going to be dealing with at
[00:04:55.520] the OSAP. And um this also included
[00:05:00.720] my being deputized by uh DIA program
[00:05:04.720] manager Jim
[00:05:05.600] >> Lowsky
[00:05:07.600] >> to represent the DIA. So I had the
[00:05:11.520] authority of my security clearances and
[00:05:13.440] the DIA to knock on doors and say haha,
[00:05:16.800] you know, uh I have an un good word that
[00:05:21.440] you've got something I need to see. I
[00:05:23.520] have need to know. Here's my letter.
[00:05:25.840] here's my security clearance courier
[00:05:27.600] card and all that good stuff. And
[00:05:30.080] unfortunately, uh, it got me access to
[00:05:32.880] some things, mostly people, um, data,
[00:05:37.360] but not the craft themselves or NH NHI
[00:05:40.479] bodies or who it is that's had contact
[00:05:43.199] with NHI's in the government. Um,
[00:05:45.840] >> I did get a chunk of that or a piece of
[00:05:49.280] it from foreign intelligence
[00:05:51.440] >> and not related to an American recovery,
[00:05:54.000] but a foreign government's recovery of a
[00:05:56.479] of a downed UAP craft that involved NHI
[00:05:59.759] bodies that were recovered along with
[00:06:01.280] it. So this is reports that were
[00:06:03.440] collected by the United States
[00:06:04.720] government and uh they wanted an outside
[00:06:08.319] independent scientist who has exposure
[00:06:11.199] to the field who's worked in it for
[00:06:13.600] decades who's uh got you know PhD and I
[00:06:17.199] have a PhD in astrophysics from the
[00:06:18.800] University of Arizona and I worked on
[00:06:21.360] space missions as part of my uh graduate
[00:06:23.600] program um and so um they they wanted to
[00:06:28.800] leverage my experience working for Bob
[00:06:30.880] Bigalow Nids and leverage working for
[00:06:33.280] the OAP.
[00:06:34.160] >> Yeah.
[00:06:34.560] >> And um and so I'm I uh I'm a good
[00:06:38.160] discriminator of BS versus ground truth.
[00:06:41.199] >> Yeah.
[00:06:41.680] >> And I've been around it so much for so
[00:06:44.080] long I can tell BS from ground truth.
[00:06:46.880] >> Well, before we go super deep into
[00:06:49.680] specific anecdotes. I thought it'd be
[00:06:51.600] cool to start out with just a few kind
[00:06:53.199] of highlevel questions on on things that
[00:06:57.039] you know, you said you've got a great BS
[00:06:59.120] detector. You've been in this for for
[00:07:01.840] more than 30 years last month.
[00:07:03.840] >> 30 years at this point. So So let's
[00:07:05.280] start with a few easy true or false
[00:07:07.840] questions.
[00:07:09.360] >> Um there is a classified crash retrieval
[00:07:12.080] program.
[00:07:12.720] >> True.
[00:07:14.240] >> We have crafts and bodies and facilities
[00:07:16.160] somewhere.
[00:07:16.800] >> True.
[00:07:18.160] >> Humanity has been in touch with multiple
[00:07:19.840] kinds of non-human intelligence for many
[00:07:21.599] years.
[00:07:22.080] >> True.
[00:07:23.599] >> Are you yourself, Eric, an experiencer
[00:07:25.840] of any kind?
[00:07:26.720] >> Yes.
[00:07:27.360] >> Really? Okay. Okay. Well, that we
[00:07:28.800] definitely I want to get deeper into all
[00:07:30.479] these things, but a couple more of these
[00:07:31.840] these quick questions. Do you think
[00:07:34.639] consciousness is deeply involved with
[00:07:36.560] phenomena?
[00:07:37.599] >> Yeah, it has it plays a role.
[00:07:39.840] >> Do you think this conversation goes to a
[00:07:41.440] spiritual dimension?
[00:07:44.560] >> Uh I'm not a religious studies expert.
[00:07:47.599] So
[00:07:49.599] uh I think for example my lecture at the
[00:07:54.479] uh contact in the desert 2026 in Indian
[00:07:57.520] Wells which is Palm Springs California
[00:08:00.720] >> I discussed the evolution of the human
[00:08:03.039] brain and one of the
[00:08:04.800] >> pieces of the human brains is the lyic
[00:08:06.800] system
[00:08:07.520] >> and the lyic system is responsible
[00:08:10.000] according to the experts who've studied
[00:08:11.680] it for decades is responsible for our
[00:08:14.160] religious experience. So, uh, if we get
[00:08:17.199] an onlogical shock, we're confronted by
[00:08:19.680] something that we can't explain normally
[00:08:21.599] within our traditions and cultures, um,
[00:08:24.160] of our upbringing, um, then, uh, that
[00:08:27.360] liic system is going to want to overlay
[00:08:29.520] a religious explanation or religious
[00:08:32.399] meaning to that experience.
[00:08:34.880] >> Okay? So, it's not that there's a
[00:08:36.959] spiritual, it's that our brain wants to
[00:08:39.200] make it a spiritual.
[00:08:41.039] >> Okay.
[00:08:41.599] >> Okay.
[00:08:42.399] >> So, it's so it's the other way around.
[00:08:44.000] And I think I think the NHIS know this
[00:08:46.160] very well and I've seen examples like in
[00:08:49.360] Wonders of the Sky by uh Chris Abbeach
[00:08:51.440] and Jacqu Vali.
[00:08:52.800] >> Um there's a lot of religious overtones
[00:08:56.320] that come out of the UAP encounters with
[00:08:58.959] mankind in Europe during the 1500 plus
[00:09:03.760] year period that they that their uh
[00:09:06.399] study covers.
[00:09:07.600] >> Yeah. Um so
[00:09:10.560] uh I think it's played a role in that I
[00:09:14.160] think the phenomenon has understood it
[00:09:16.399] our religious overtones of in our
[00:09:18.560] culture or the religious overtones in
[00:09:20.480] our culture and I think it has played it
[00:09:22.560] up pretty well. Okay. And the miracle uh
[00:09:25.040] uh the Fatima miracles in Portugal that
[00:09:27.440] back in the early back after the turn of
[00:09:29.440] the 19th uh 20th century was an example
[00:09:32.240] of that where you had one event where
[00:09:34.720] these children that are in counting uh
[00:09:37.760] encountering
[00:09:39.440] u the Virgin Mary over a burning bush
[00:09:42.320] out in a field. These kids are are
[00:09:44.560] illiterate. They don't go to school.
[00:09:46.000] They're poor. They're their children are
[00:09:48.160] farmers and they're running their sheep
[00:09:49.839] out there or whatever farm animals. and
[00:09:53.279] um uh and they're encountering this
[00:09:56.880] vision that's giving them prophecies and
[00:09:58.959] it's I think uh a couple of cousins or
[00:10:01.120] something and so they're getting these
[00:10:03.360] prophecies which just fast forward the
[00:10:06.640] story. The Vatican investigative and
[00:10:09.120] this the prophecies came true and I
[00:10:11.200] think there was one last one that hadn't
[00:10:13.120] come true. I don't know if it has come
[00:10:14.800] true yet or if it's yet to come true. I
[00:10:16.800] I I think it had to do with Pope
[00:10:18.640] Benedict. Pope Benedict being replaced
[00:10:20.959] by Pope Francis or something like that.
[00:10:22.880] That might not be the right prophecy.
[00:10:24.480] But um the Vatican held on the Vatican
[00:10:27.920] Yeah. It specifically held on to that
[00:10:30.000] prophecy and kept it a secret. The other
[00:10:32.000] prophecies it kept a secret until they
[00:10:33.760] came true and then they revealed it.
[00:10:35.200] >> Well, that Yeah, that's convenient,
[00:10:36.320] isn't it? Yeah.
[00:10:36.959] >> Okay. So here we have an event where I
[00:10:39.920] guess the word of mouth spread far and
[00:10:42.240] wide in the community outside the farm
[00:10:44.240] outside the uh agrarian community that
[00:10:46.959] these kids were living in and it got to
[00:10:49.519] the local city. And so they had approxim
[00:10:53.600] hundreds to a thousand some witnesses to
[00:10:57.680] this next appearance of the phenomenon
[00:11:00.959] that the kids predicted were were was
[00:11:03.839] going to happen. So, uh, the kids are
[00:11:06.240] there and several very religious, very
[00:11:10.320] lowly educated, poor people that work in
[00:11:12.800] the community or work in the
[00:11:14.079] agricultural area. Uh, they they go to
[00:11:17.440] church. They're very religious and
[00:11:18.800] devout. They saw the Virgin Mary appear
[00:11:21.200] over a burning bush. And this is the
[00:11:22.560] type of burning bush as described by
[00:11:25.120] Jacques Vali and people who've studied
[00:11:27.200] the f uh the miracles um have said have
[00:11:31.440] to me reminds me of the burning bush
[00:11:33.839] that Moses saw.
[00:11:35.120] >> Okay. Up in Mount Arat. And so um and so
[00:11:38.880] they saw that and the more educated
[00:11:41.760] people from the town like the city
[00:11:43.920] leaders, the law enforcement leaders uh
[00:11:47.440] or law enforcement personnel and town
[00:11:49.760] engineers, uh school teachers, doctors,
[00:11:52.399] and so forth. They didn't see the they
[00:11:55.600] didn't see the Virgin Mary over the
[00:11:57.040] burning bush. What they saw what looked
[00:11:59.120] like the sun was be
[00:12:01.680] >> fantastically brilliant white instead of
[00:12:04.560] its normal color yellow in the sky and
[00:12:07.519] it was a bit larger in size and it
[00:12:09.519] started making motions across the sky
[00:12:12.240] and uh this and the sun was nowhere in
[00:12:15.519] the sky at that point. It's just this
[00:12:17.200] thing that looks like it's illuminating
[00:12:19.760] the sky uh creating daylight and it's
[00:12:22.800] moving around but there's no sight of
[00:12:24.320] the sun itself and that's what they saw.
[00:12:26.959] Mhm.
[00:12:27.519] >> Okay.
[00:12:27.920] >> So, there was a genuine phenomenon of
[00:12:29.600] some kind, but it seems like that that
[00:12:32.240] the Mary aspect of it was the sort of
[00:12:34.480] later cultural overlay that was
[00:12:36.800] >> and that's right. And this is where the
[00:12:38.320] consciousness aspect comes. I think it
[00:12:40.079] was manipulating the consciousness of
[00:12:42.880] the recipients. So, the very religious
[00:12:44.800] recipients saw it as Virgin Mary
[00:12:47.600] hovering over a burning bush. And
[00:12:49.680] everybody who's very religious is is
[00:12:51.519] hearing its message mental, I think,
[00:12:53.519] telepathically. And um uh and all the
[00:12:57.839] educated, highly educated technical
[00:12:59.680] people or technically oriented people uh
[00:13:02.720] are seeing a silver disc move across the
[00:13:05.519] sky
[00:13:06.560] >> and you don't see the sun anymore for
[00:13:08.240] some reason.
[00:13:08.959] >> Yeah. Yeah. It's a fascinating case. Um,
[00:13:12.320] I want to get into your story
[00:13:13.920] specifically because I I know I always
[00:13:16.399] know like the chunks some of some of the
[00:13:17.920] like major chapters, but I don't know if
[00:13:20.160] I know specifically when things went
[00:13:23.200] from, you know, prosaic kinds of, you
[00:13:26.560] know, physics work to you getting pulled
[00:13:29.279] in to the to the weird stuff and the big
[00:13:32.079] questions. When when did that first
[00:13:34.079] start? How did you end up getting pulled
[00:13:35.760] into some of these more phenomena
[00:13:38.000] related projects for the first time?
[00:13:39.600] Yeah, I was working at the eighth
[00:13:41.519] fighter wing um uh in Kungan, South
[00:13:44.720] Korea. That was the US Air Force for
[00:13:47.040] deployed air base.
[00:13:48.560] >> And um Kungan is on the uh southwest
[00:13:51.920] Korean Peninsula on the yellow coast of
[00:13:53.760] the Yellow Sea. And so uh I was there
[00:13:58.480] for a long while and my wife and I have
[00:14:01.279] three little kids and um and she's alone
[00:14:04.880] with the three kids. she's got help with
[00:14:06.480] from her family and I'm in South Korea
[00:14:09.279] working and uh uh it it was getting to
[00:14:13.279] be hard to be waiting for my my family
[00:14:15.760] and I had a my son was uh still a baby
[00:14:19.120] but he was he was uh just to think about
[00:14:22.399] it he was he was not quite two years old
[00:14:24.639] he was almost two years old so so I was
[00:14:27.279] missing his milestones in life and I'm
[00:14:29.920] kind of looking at the pay situation and
[00:14:32.000] it's not all that great for what it
[00:14:34.000] should have been for for the position I
[00:14:36.079] had uh and I was working for the
[00:14:37.760] University of Maryland and their
[00:14:39.120] overseas program. So, um so I'm going to
[00:14:43.600] be coming home for the summer um because
[00:14:46.240] I'm teaching over there and what happens
[00:14:48.320] is is they don't guarantee summer
[00:14:50.639] teaching courses.
[00:14:51.839] >> Um and so I had none that could be
[00:14:54.880] assigned to me and I that means I
[00:14:56.800] couldn't pay my bills. I couldn't be
[00:14:58.480] able to send money to my wife to help
[00:15:00.000] her pay the bills. So, uh, I was looking
[00:15:02.800] at a summer with no money to spend and
[00:15:04.639] my wife not earning any income. Now,
[00:15:06.320] she's working full-time plus a part-time
[00:15:08.240] job and and that would been too big of a
[00:15:10.079] burden. Uh, plus I'd not have any health
[00:15:12.480] insurance at that point because I'd be
[00:15:14.000] off salary.
[00:15:15.199] >> So, um, so I looked through my May issue
[00:15:18.959] of Physics Today magazine and, uh, there
[00:15:22.240] was a a whole page ad in the career
[00:15:24.240] section by NIDS.
[00:15:25.600] >> Wow. The National Institute for
[00:15:27.120] Discovery Science was looking for
[00:15:28.560] scientists [clears throat] in a category
[00:15:29.680] of STEM fields and they were looking
[00:15:31.360] into studying uh questions of cosmology
[00:15:34.639] and intelligence throughout the
[00:15:36.160] universe. Um this and that. I don't
[00:15:38.880] remember the verbiage anymore. It's so
[00:15:40.560] long ago. And I thought, "Wow, this
[00:15:42.560] sounds like what I'm really interested
[00:15:44.000] in." So, uh so I got back. I was no I
[00:15:48.720] applied for the job from Korea before it
[00:15:52.000] was time for me to go home for the
[00:15:53.519] summer. Uh, and I was still teaching the
[00:15:56.240] end of the classes and had to give final
[00:15:57.759] exams. So, um, um,
[00:16:02.000] uh, so I got the email address, typed up
[00:16:06.000] a cover letter, got my resume put
[00:16:08.320] together, and I emailed it to the
[00:16:10.720] address in the ad,
[00:16:12.399] >> and that email went to John Alexander.
[00:16:14.480] >> Wow.
[00:16:14.959] >> And so John Alexander got my CV, my
[00:16:18.000] cover letter, printed it out. He put me
[00:16:20.480] in touch with Hal Put because he read my
[00:16:22.320] CV and he said, "Oh my god, you're
[00:16:23.920] interested in quantum vacuum
[00:16:25.120] fluctuations and ZPE
[00:16:27.199] >> and that's the stuff that one of our
[00:16:29.199] science advisory board members is big
[00:16:30.959] on. That's his primary research uh
[00:16:33.120] interest."
[00:16:33.839] >> So he said, "I want to put the two of
[00:16:35.199] you together." So we introduced us by
[00:16:36.880] email. I'm using my Air Force email and
[00:16:39.040] and they're emailing me back and forth
[00:16:41.120] uh from from well Hal's in Austin and
[00:16:44.160] and uh John's in Las Vegas working for
[00:16:46.240] Bob Bigalowette Nids. And so we're
[00:16:48.560] emailing back and forth. And then uh I
[00:16:51.440] told John and Hal that uh I'm leaving
[00:16:54.880] for the summer because there's no guar
[00:16:57.120] there's no been no guaranteed teaching
[00:16:58.880] assignments. So I have no income and I
[00:17:00.560] need to go home and find another job uh
[00:17:02.880] in order to earn income uh until I find
[00:17:04.959] a full-time job. And John said, "Well,
[00:17:07.039] let us know when you're back. Let's pick
[00:17:08.799] up this conversation." So that happened.
[00:17:11.360] I called John when I got back to Tucson
[00:17:14.319] and uh John scheduled an interview with
[00:17:16.880] me.
[00:17:17.679] >> So he interviewed me for a long period
[00:17:20.160] of time on the phone. Uh and then he
[00:17:22.640] said, "I want to talk to Mr. Bigalow
[00:17:24.720] about you and show him your CV." So
[00:17:27.839] during that period of time, this is uh
[00:17:29.919] in June of 96. So uh during that period
[00:17:34.080] of time he started calling my references
[00:17:36.160] and those are my old dissertation uh
[00:17:38.960] adviserss on my PhD committee at the
[00:17:41.120] University of Arizona and um uh uh one
[00:17:46.400] of whom was my boss as well. I worked on
[00:17:48.320] the Voyager one and two missions with
[00:17:49.919] him.
[00:17:50.240] >> Oh wow.
[00:17:50.720] >> Yeah. I was his I was his uh PhD
[00:17:52.880] student. Um and my uh dissertation
[00:17:56.080] research was on the plasma tourist at
[00:17:58.160] Jupiter. And so I was doing a major
[00:18:00.240] plasma physics modeling aspect of that.
[00:18:02.799] And so he called all of these people who
[00:18:04.880] were my on my reference list. Uh they
[00:18:07.360] confirmed and verified who I was and
[00:18:09.200] what I did and and made recommendations
[00:18:11.120] about my back or you know attest to my
[00:18:13.440] character and background and whatnot.
[00:18:15.039] Whatever questions John had to ask, they
[00:18:16.960] answered. Uh, and so then the next thing
[00:18:19.440] I know, I got a call from John saying
[00:18:21.200] that Bob Bigalow wants to interview me.
[00:18:23.440] So, he just said, "Just hang on. He's
[00:18:25.679] gonna call you at such and such time."
[00:18:27.360] Yeah.
[00:18:27.679] >> Uh, that happened. Uh, Bob was in his
[00:18:30.160] car. He had a car phone.
[00:18:32.240] >> So, he interviewed me for from his car.
[00:18:34.160] And I'm thinking, that's funny cuz we've
[00:18:35.600] been on this phone two hours and it
[00:18:37.679] didn't sound like he stopped somewhere,
[00:18:39.440] got out of the car cuz he's on the phone
[00:18:41.360] in the car. I don't know if he had a
[00:18:43.280] >> uh back in those days, we didn't have
[00:18:44.799] cell phones.
[00:18:45.440] >> The big box one in the in the car. Yeah.
[00:18:47.840] >> So, it it it sounded like he might have
[00:18:50.400] been driving around Las Vegas for 2
[00:18:52.720] hours interviewing me. That's my that's
[00:18:54.720] my thinking. So, we had a great
[00:18:56.640] conversation and Bob invited me up to
[00:18:58.480] Vegas for for the inerson interview.
[00:19:01.120] >> Well, I did that and I got hired.
[00:19:02.960] >> Well, yeah. And and that that explains
[00:19:04.960] how you get pulled into the weird stuff
[00:19:06.400] because if you get into the orbit of Hal
[00:19:08.240] Putoff, John Alexander, Bigalow, you're
[00:19:10.559] immediately kind of thrust in to the to
[00:19:12.799] the fun and and weird and wonderful
[00:19:15.679] stuff. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:19:16.480] >> Um, let's give people an idea of who
[00:19:18.080] they are and what their backgrounds are
[00:19:19.919] because that in and of itself kind of
[00:19:21.520] speaks to a lot of what you're going to
[00:19:23.360] investigate later, right? Because Al
[00:19:25.760] Putoff is known as as not just a
[00:19:27.520] physicist, but he co-ran Project
[00:19:30.000] Stargate for uh, you know, any any
[00:19:32.640] number of agencies.
[00:19:34.559] >> I know it started with CIA and then kind
[00:19:36.240] of went, you know, through various the
[00:19:37.919] remote viewing program.
[00:19:38.640] >> Yeah. remote viewing program studying
[00:19:41.120] various you know sigh phenomena but but
[00:19:43.200] really it's become broadly known as the
[00:19:45.120] the remote viewing program
[00:19:46.873] [clears throat]
[00:19:47.120] >> um
[00:19:47.360] >> it had a lot of different code names
[00:19:48.880] that's why
[00:19:50.000] >> stargate grill flame sun street this
[00:19:52.320] that and the other thing yeah and then
[00:19:54.480] John Alexander was involved
[00:19:56.400] >> uh he was when it went to the army
[00:19:58.320] intelligence and security command he was
[00:19:59.919] the chief of staff to breeder general
[00:20:01.520] bird stubble who was the commander of
[00:20:04.080] >> yes
[00:20:04.480] >> that and so um so it landed there landed
[00:20:07.679] at the DIA a the air force uh um Dale
[00:20:11.039] Dr. Dale Graph was a missile physicist
[00:20:14.000] uh at the at Wright Patterson Air Force
[00:20:16.160] Base and he got the program uh after the
[00:20:19.360] CIA. So it went to his uh his office uh
[00:20:23.280] in the 70s after the CIA gave it up and
[00:20:25.919] then after that I think it went to the
[00:20:27.679] DIA and then after that the army and
[00:20:29.760] then it went back to the CIA in the end
[00:20:31.760] for another number of years until uh
[00:20:34.080] Bill Clinton declassified it. side
[00:20:36.159] question just for my own personal
[00:20:37.919] interest. How did Dale Graph and Wright
[00:20:41.440] Patterson Air Force Base get involved
[00:20:43.200] with that because I know that there is
[00:20:44.880] like you know there there's
[00:20:46.240] long-standing obviously rumors about
[00:20:48.559] Wright Patterson and crash retrieval and
[00:20:51.120] you know that's where McCassland was who
[00:20:52.720] is very who has become very central to
[00:20:54.320] the UFO conversation. There's also this
[00:20:56.640] like human performance wing or something
[00:20:59.360] like that that's there and if you just
[00:21:01.200] look at their public facing boilerplate
[00:21:03.600] it's all very kind of vague but
[00:21:05.840] interesting sounding stuff about uh like
[00:21:08.320] fringe case medical studies but it but
[00:21:11.039] it also makes one wonder if maybe within
[00:21:13.120] the bracket of human performance there's
[00:21:15.440] sigh related stuff that's been going on
[00:21:17.360] for for years there and if you know I
[00:21:20.080] can only speculate and I'm assuming you
[00:21:21.760] can only speculate but um I really don't
[00:21:24.159] know that history part of it. I just
[00:21:26.000] know just that Dale was working on
[00:21:29.200] missile technology and that was his area
[00:21:32.000] of responsib uh responsibility and um I
[00:21:35.760] don't know how he got into the remote
[00:21:38.400] viewing program and what moved him into
[00:21:40.960] that
[00:21:42.080] >> uh path. Um, and I don't know if the
[00:21:45.360] human performance was actually I know
[00:21:47.039] there's the human performance lab is in
[00:21:49.120] New Mexico in modern times, but I don't
[00:21:51.919] know what was going on in the mid to
[00:21:54.000] late '7s with regard to that topic.
[00:21:56.559] Well, well, even now if you go if you
[00:21:58.159] just go to the website of that um
[00:22:00.240] whatever I'm probably not saying the
[00:22:02.080] exact correct, you know, name of
[00:22:03.600] whatever this um this segment at Wright
[00:22:06.240] Patterson is, but there's a lot of
[00:22:07.679] medical related stuff. And
[00:22:08.799] interestingly, there's a lot of um
[00:22:10.799] combinations between aerospace and and
[00:22:13.679] outer space and like very fringe type
[00:22:16.240] medical stuff where it sounds like
[00:22:17.840] they're talking about doing medicine in
[00:22:19.440] outer space essentially. Yeah,
[00:22:22.000] >> friends, I have been cooking up the
[00:22:23.440] goods over in the members section on
[00:22:25.360] YouTube and at patreon.com/theryrops.
[00:22:29.840] What are said goods? And was cooking
[00:22:33.520] really the best verb you could summon on
[00:22:35.840] this occasion? Uh, well, to the former
[00:22:38.640] question, said goods are weekly, at
[00:22:41.280] least roughly exclusive content that you
[00:22:43.440] are never going to see here on the main
[00:22:45.600] feed uh with some of your favorite
[00:22:47.280] guests. By the way, case in point, I am
[00:22:50.000] slowly working on a doc that I shot at
[00:22:52.400] contact in the desert this year with a
[00:22:54.720] number of your favorite beings on the
[00:22:57.679] topic of UFOs and consciousness. And I
[00:23:00.320] will be releasing the full unedited
[00:23:02.480] conversations with all of those people
[00:23:05.280] only on the members channel and on
[00:23:07.520] Patreon. If you do join up over at
[00:23:09.840] patreon.com/
[00:23:11.520] thirdeyrops, you will get access to all
[00:23:14.159] of those exclusive videos, plus a
[00:23:16.159] patronon Discord and occasional live
[00:23:19.360] hangs and more. And yes, of course, the
[00:23:21.280] doc will be coming out on the main feed
[00:23:22.880] if I didn't make that clear. So much
[00:23:24.400] love for watching, my friends. While I
[00:23:25.919] have you tickle that algorithm, like,
[00:23:28.159] subscribe, uh, review if you are
[00:23:30.320] listening on Spotify where it sounds
[00:23:32.080] like they're talking about doing
[00:23:33.120] medicine in outer space essentially.
[00:23:35.760] Yeah. Well, that's uh aerospace medicine
[00:23:38.000] actually was born after World War II
[00:23:41.760] >> and uh the first aerospace medicine
[00:23:44.159] laboratory was established by a guy
[00:23:46.559] named Loveless I think it was in New
[00:23:48.640] Mexico.
[00:23:50.000] >> So that's not unusual because that was
[00:23:52.400] the period when the Air Force was
[00:23:54.400] starting to push jet uh fighter
[00:23:56.799] technology to the limits and then
[00:23:58.480] simultaneously manned balloon flights uh
[00:24:01.600] to higher and higher altitudes until
[00:24:03.440] they had until they reached near space.
[00:24:05.520] M
[00:24:05.919] >> near space is 100 miles altitude above
[00:24:08.799] sea level.
[00:24:09.440] >> Okay.
[00:24:09.919] >> Okay. And so they're they're uh creating
[00:24:12.240] an environmental u uh pressurized
[00:24:15.279] environmental uh habitat attach it to
[00:24:18.720] these powerful balloons and they would
[00:24:20.720] send up and see how far they can get
[00:24:22.159] their astronaut. This was the pre-space
[00:24:23.679] age. This was leading they were trying
[00:24:25.679] to explore what the physiology effects
[00:24:28.799] of that kind of altitude of flying gces.
[00:24:32.320] >> Yeah. The environment up there. The
[00:24:34.000] whole thing. uh what kind of effects did
[00:24:35.919] it have on on astronauts? And uh
[00:24:38.799] actually the guys doing that were pilots
[00:24:40.960] were just Air Force pilots. So there
[00:24:43.279] weren't even astronauts then, but they
[00:24:44.880] became the first astronauts technically.
[00:24:47.120] >> And so um so that was the year when this
[00:24:50.159] was starting to emerge was after World
[00:24:51.919] War II ended
[00:24:53.200] >> and uh it continued evolving throughout
[00:24:55.279] the 50s. And then finally, as you know,
[00:24:57.120] we at the main man space program start
[00:24:59.360] in the early 60s. So, so we've
[00:25:01.200] established um you know, you you get
[00:25:03.760] pulled into NIDS, you're working with
[00:25:05.039] Hal Putoff, you're working with John
[00:25:06.320] Alexander, Bigalow himself, like to this
[00:25:08.960] day, is a huge um champion of
[00:25:12.240] disclosure, uh investigating a lot of
[00:25:14.880] different kinds of high weirdness
[00:25:16.240] phenomenon related things. Spent a lot
[00:25:17.919] of time researching what's going on at
[00:25:19.600] Skinwalker Ranch. um he just put out
[00:25:21.760] that interview with George Knapp
[00:25:23.039] recently where you know so he's to this
[00:25:25.120] day like since then and before and even
[00:25:27.200] to this day is is deeply involved with
[00:25:29.200] investigating these questions. So you
[00:25:31.039] get pulled into NIDS.
[00:25:32.559] >> What happens from there? What do you
[00:25:33.840] start investigating? What what kind of
[00:25:35.440] things start landing on your plate?
[00:25:37.200] Well, uh I was there in mid July,
[00:25:40.799] started my job in the middle of the
[00:25:42.159] month on a Monday and uh we had a
[00:25:44.559] science of advisory board meeting that
[00:25:47.039] month uh like uh either
[00:25:51.360] that the the weekend after or two
[00:25:53.679] weekends after. Then the other two NID
[00:25:56.240] scientists got hired and started started
[00:25:58.559] that time started that particular week
[00:26:00.320] later in July and that would have been
[00:26:02.000] Colin Keller and and George Wette. So
[00:26:04.640] they came on board. All Bob was doing
[00:26:07.120] was having us work in the executive
[00:26:08.880] office suite outside of his executive
[00:26:10.880] office. And this this is really like an
[00:26:12.960] open air area on the top floor. It's a
[00:26:15.679] second floor park house on Southeastern
[00:26:17.840] Avenue in Las Vegas. And uh you have all
[00:26:20.799] these uh uh office desks everywhere. And
[00:26:24.640] the boardroom is over here. Uh there are
[00:26:27.760] some closed offices down this way. So,
[00:26:30.880] he's got a real estate office, his
[00:26:32.640] lawyer's office, and uh general
[00:26:36.000] contracting office, and then his
[00:26:37.600] executive suite.
[00:26:38.559] >> Okay.
[00:26:39.039] >> Okay. And then, um and so we're we're
[00:26:41.840] just uh he's just getting us acclimated
[00:26:45.039] uh at that time in July and getting us
[00:26:47.600] used to processes and procedures,
[00:26:49.600] payroll, vacation time, meeting with
[00:26:52.559] >> um his administrative assistants.
[00:26:55.360] and um uh he he doesn't really get us
[00:26:58.960] started on anything except he suggests
[00:27:00.880] we read Linda How's books,
[00:27:02.799] >> Jacqu Val's books, and then we find out
[00:27:05.760] there's an office on East Tropicana cult
[00:27:08.400] and that's where John Alexander is.
[00:27:10.640] >> So that's actually where I went during
[00:27:12.720] my job interview. John took me from
[00:27:14.799] Bob's office to um to the NID's office
[00:27:18.880] and he showed me around and uh so there
[00:27:21.840] was a separate NID there was an actual
[00:27:23.279] NIDS office but Bob for the first half
[00:27:26.159] of the year had us working in the
[00:27:27.919] executive office area outside the
[00:27:30.080] boardroom
[00:27:30.960] >> just a little ways down from his
[00:27:32.720] executive suite. Um, and so he wanted us
[00:27:36.640] there and I think that was because he
[00:27:38.720] wanted to keep an eye on us
[00:27:40.559] >> and um, engage us because what he does
[00:27:42.799] is he parks his car under this. This is
[00:27:45.279] not a uh, this this floor doesn't have a
[00:27:48.159] ground floor beneath it. That's the
[00:27:49.760] parking area for him, okay? And his wife
[00:27:52.000] and maybe a couple of other executives.
[00:27:53.919] So, he comes in and parks under our
[00:27:55.679] floor. Then he takes an elevator up to
[00:27:57.520] the second floor and he'll go through
[00:27:59.200] that uh and say hello to us and he'll
[00:28:01.520] want to talk to us as he comes and as he
[00:28:04.080] goes and just engage in chitchat with us
[00:28:06.960] and stuff and maybe uh give us something
[00:28:09.120] to think about or give maybe have us
[00:28:11.039] call some people to talk to and whatnot.
[00:28:13.919] >> Did it surprise you at all that you know
[00:28:15.600] you you take this job and then one of
[00:28:17.279] the first things read these UFO books
[00:28:19.279] essentially like was that surprising
[00:28:20.720] >> essentially but um I had read UFO books
[00:28:22.960] when I was in middle school.
[00:28:24.080] >> Okay. Okay.
[00:28:24.640] >> Okay. and then uh got to high school and
[00:28:26.880] that kind of fell off the map. Um and uh
[00:28:29.760] got to college and graduate school after
[00:28:31.440] that and that really was off the map and
[00:28:33.200] I I didn't forget about it. I just
[00:28:34.799] hadn't read any more books. So I read
[00:28:37.039] Alan Heinik's book and I read uh two of
[00:28:40.080] Jacques's books,
[00:28:41.760] >> one with Heinik um
[00:28:44.640] >> uh and um the APRO newsletters because I
[00:28:49.200] subscribed to them when I was in middle
[00:28:50.640] school and the uh and they're in Tucson.
[00:28:54.159] I grew up in Phoenix.
[00:28:55.279] >> Okay.
[00:28:55.760] >> Okay. So, uh, let's see what else. Oh, I
[00:28:58.960] would see the occasional UFO documentary
[00:29:02.559] on TV that was on TV every once in a
[00:29:06.080] while. There was the Emagger documentary
[00:29:07.919] in ' 74. Then he reissued it three years
[00:29:10.080] later with an update that involved Jacqu
[00:29:12.399] Val and cattle mutilations. Saw that.
[00:29:14.799] Then there'd be uh Leonard Nemo's in
[00:29:17.360] search of series
[00:29:19.440] >> uh and this and that and the other. So,
[00:29:21.840] um, so, uh, I had my foothold in UFO
[00:29:26.240] subjects starting since the beginning of
[00:29:28.240] middle school.
[00:29:28.880] >> Okay.
[00:29:29.520] >> Uh, there were plenty of science news
[00:29:31.440] magazines, which is for the pop lay
[00:29:33.840] persons. Uh, there they're an extension
[00:29:36.399] of science magazine, which is technical.
[00:29:38.799] Uh, there was scientific American
[00:29:40.559] magazines that they had on
[00:29:41.919] subscriptions. So I would read a lot of
[00:29:43.440] that
[00:29:44.080] >> and and early on they were actively
[00:29:46.240] exploring what today we would call like
[00:29:48.799] very alternative physics and propulsion
[00:29:50.880] modalities, right? Because I'm assuming
[00:29:52.640] like
[00:29:53.200] >> not to the extent you think uh the the
[00:29:55.679] propulsion was advanced. It was um like
[00:29:58.480] nuclear fusion, nuclear fision, laser
[00:30:01.039] propulsion, not necessarily sales but
[00:30:03.600] rockets that are powered by laser beams
[00:30:05.440] projected to the rocket to heat up a
[00:30:07.039] propellant. And um [clears throat]
[00:30:09.360] >> was it more like the 50s that they were
[00:30:11.039] talking about like speculating about G
[00:30:12.960] drives and and gravitational type
[00:30:16.799] electroic stuff?
[00:30:18.159] >> Uh a couple of the aerospace companies,
[00:30:22.080] Glenn Martin was one. Um
[00:30:25.520] I'm trying to think. Oh, you know,
[00:30:27.679] Travis Taylor's got a list of them and I
[00:30:29.600] got a newspaper. Okay.
[00:30:31.279] >> Yeah. But anyway, there were probably
[00:30:33.360] two or three or four
[00:30:35.840] >> aerospace corporations that established
[00:30:39.679] what I'll euphemistically say gravity
[00:30:42.000] control/ anti-gravity foundations. And
[00:30:44.960] they hired the best physicist to run
[00:30:47.279] those foundations. And the whole purpose
[00:30:49.039] of what they were looking at was
[00:30:50.399] studying uh uh the current laws of uh
[00:30:54.080] the current uh physics. And the current
[00:30:56.559] physics at that time would have been um
[00:30:58.799] general relativity theory
[00:31:00.559] >> and uh quantum field theory
[00:31:03.600] was just was still not quite fully
[00:31:06.320] emerging in the 50s.
[00:31:07.840] >> It its foundation was quantum
[00:31:09.919] electronamics theory which won no um
[00:31:13.200] Richard Fineman the Nobel Prize in phys
[00:31:15.200] physics form.
[00:31:16.320] >> So he quantized Maxwell's electronamics
[00:31:19.679] and that was the first part of quantum
[00:31:22.559] field theory. But quantum field theory
[00:31:23.840] is much broader than quantum
[00:31:25.039] electronamics.
[00:31:26.640] >> And so um and so nobody was thinking
[00:31:29.600] about the uh the weak force the strong
[00:31:31.919] force of nuclear physics
[00:31:34.000] >> and uh radioactive decay. Turns out
[00:31:36.159] radioactive decay is a manifestation of
[00:31:39.360] weak nuclear force. Okay. And then in
[00:31:41.760] the 1970s, a bunch of guys uh Steve uh
[00:31:45.440] Steven Weinberg at UT Austin uh and uh
[00:31:49.039] Abdul Salam and maybe one other one got
[00:31:51.440] the Nobel Prize in physics for unifying
[00:31:54.720] electronamics with the weak nuclear
[00:31:57.279] force.
[00:31:57.840] >> Wow.
[00:31:58.240] >> They're two sides of the same unified
[00:32:00.159] force, two sides of the same coin. And
[00:32:02.559] sometime after the universe was born uh
[00:32:05.600] it went through a symmetry breaking
[00:32:07.360] phase where the symmetry of those two
[00:32:09.039] forces were breaking were has been
[00:32:10.960] broken and they became two independent
[00:32:13.120] forces.
[00:32:13.760] >> Okay.
[00:32:14.159] >> And it turned out that the weak nuclear
[00:32:16.799] force is what gives you radioactive
[00:32:19.440] decay and the change of elementary
[00:32:21.760] particle flavor some of them from one
[00:32:23.600] type to another. And we see that in
[00:32:25.600] nutrinos now uh when they fly to the
[00:32:28.399] earth from the sun they change from one
[00:32:30.080] type of nutrino that they're
[00:32:31.267] [clears throat] emitted as and they
[00:32:32.720] become a different type of nutrino
[00:32:34.320] nutrino before they hit our nutrino
[00:32:36.720] detectors on earth.
[00:32:38.000] >> Okay.
[00:32:38.320] >> I don't want to get too into the weeds
[00:32:39.519] on this cuz most most people
[00:32:40.880] >> Yeah. That's what was so so back in the
[00:32:43.200] uh gravity control anti-gravity era,
[00:32:45.360] they were looking for ways uh uh
[00:32:48.880] >> in the in the laws of physics and in the
[00:32:50.640] theories of physics contemporary to the
[00:32:52.320] 50s
[00:32:53.200] >> whether there was a technological way to
[00:32:55.600] control gravity and produce things like
[00:32:57.360] anti-gravity to produce revolution
[00:33:00.000] revolutionary innovations in aerospace
[00:33:02.640] or space exploration propulsion. Mhm.
[00:33:05.120] >> And um unfortunately they were not
[00:33:06.960] successful but they did know that
[00:33:09.279] general relativity does give you the
[00:33:11.840] theoretical proof of principle recipes
[00:33:14.240] as I call them the solutions um for
[00:33:17.519] anti-gravity. It's just that the numbers
[00:33:20.240] look horrible.
[00:33:21.600] >> And that means yeah you uh my former
[00:33:24.399] mentor uh at Hughes Research Labs in
[00:33:26.960] Malibu, California. That was Robert
[00:33:28.720] Ford. And Robert Ford got his PhD in
[00:33:31.760] general relativity theory under uh the
[00:33:34.320] supervision of uh professor Joseph Weber
[00:33:36.880] at the University of Maryland during the
[00:33:38.880] late 50s and his and his work was on um
[00:33:42.880] uh the gravitational wave detector.
[00:33:45.120] >> So they they built the first world's
[00:33:47.360] first gravitational wave detector. They
[00:33:49.360] detected signals but they couldn't rule
[00:33:51.360] out noise in the system. And so it's
[00:33:54.720] it's now uh h I think it's being
[00:33:57.760] displayed at the Smithsonian Museum
[00:33:59.760] somewhere in Washington DC.
[00:34:01.039] >> Fascinating.
[00:34:01.840] >> So that was pretty revolutionary even
[00:34:03.679] though it didn't really didn't have any
[00:34:05.039] definitive uh detection of a
[00:34:06.960] gravitational wave or any number of
[00:34:08.560] waves. Uh so anyway he explored all this
[00:34:12.159] uh gravity control anti-gravity and he
[00:34:14.639] published peer-reviewed papers on the
[00:34:16.399] topic and he and he gave us some
[00:34:18.720] engineering blueprints on how that can
[00:34:20.480] be done.
[00:34:21.119] >> Yeah. The problem is when you put the
[00:34:22.720] numbers from general relativity in
[00:34:24.079] there, uh you find out that you need
[00:34:26.159] stupendously huge devices with white
[00:34:29.679] dwarf density stellar matter uh moving
[00:34:33.919] in a ployal winding around a giant
[00:34:36.320] Taurus and they have to move at half the
[00:34:38.399] speed of light in order to create just a
[00:34:41.119] 1g of anti-gravity force to nullify the
[00:34:44.480] Earth's gravity.
[00:34:45.520] >> Whoa. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, that sounds like
[00:34:47.440] a problem. And and I'm not nearly as
[00:34:49.280] deep on this as someone like our mutual
[00:34:50.879] friend Jesse or you know other people
[00:34:52.399] who have gone down this rabbit hole. I I
[00:34:54.159] just thought I' I'd ask as a as an
[00:34:56.399] aside, but I I do want to get back to
[00:34:58.240] your your your time at NIDS and and you
[00:35:00.880] know, when you start doing some of this
[00:35:03.359] work that you know has now kind of you
[00:35:05.839] become known for doing what so so what's
[00:35:08.560] like the first major sort of big project
[00:35:11.280] or or question that falls
[00:35:12.880] >> it happened in August of um uh of of 96.
[00:35:18.079] Um that's when I think before that time
[00:35:21.839] or around that time Bob Bigalow started
[00:35:23.680] getting news from uh Shelley Wadssworth
[00:35:26.000] in Pio Nevada which is close to Wendover
[00:35:29.599] and Wendover is on the border of Utah
[00:35:31.440] Nevada
[00:35:32.400] >> and she's reading the Desireette
[00:35:34.480] newspaper
[00:35:36.000] uh found out that a reporter named Zach
[00:35:38.079] Vanick had been reporting on the Sherman
[00:35:40.000] family's uh horrific paranormal and UFO
[00:35:43.680] and cattle mutilation experiences on
[00:35:45.520] their ranch in uh in Fort Duchaine,
[00:35:48.560] Utah, which is in the Utah Valley on the
[00:35:50.560] north northeast corner of the state
[00:35:52.480] below the Wyoming border. And um and
[00:35:55.280] that's where all the dinosaur uh
[00:35:57.680] >> oh interesting
[00:35:58.240] >> digging sites are and they've got the
[00:35:59.680] major dinosaur museum out there. So uh
[00:36:03.520] and so he's reading about it and then
[00:36:05.119] the next thing I know I get called in to
[00:36:07.680] Bob's office and he wants me to sit on
[00:36:09.760] and listen to him talk to Terry Sherman
[00:36:12.160] on speakerphone. And so he engaged in a
[00:36:14.560] long conversation for sh for Terry to
[00:36:17.920] summarize all the events that happened
[00:36:19.839] to him and his family on that ranch from
[00:36:22.000] the day they bought it and stepped foot
[00:36:23.440] on it and started living there and
[00:36:25.119] breeding uh black Angus cattle.
[00:36:27.040] >> And this is Skinwalker.
[00:36:28.720] >> Yeah. Yeah. So uh and we didn't call it
[00:36:30.800] Skinwalker then. We called it was not it
[00:36:33.200] was just a Sherman family ranch. And so
[00:36:36.160] um and so I listened to that and I heard
[00:36:38.480] that the conversation took a turn toward
[00:36:42.240] so things are terrible. You know your
[00:36:44.480] wife is getting his wife was a loan
[00:36:46.560] officer at the bank in Ballard I believe
[00:36:49.680] it was which is nearby the ranch and um
[00:36:53.920] she's getting
[00:36:56.079] uh pressured at work taunted. the their
[00:36:59.119] two kids in school were getting taunted
[00:37:00.960] and bullied and um uh I don't remember
[00:37:04.800] him saying that he was having
[00:37:06.079] difficulties himself but his wife and
[00:37:07.760] kids were taking the brunt of all the
[00:37:09.280] news that Zach Fenick was reporting in
[00:37:11.680] the uh Desireette newspaper. So um the
[00:37:15.359] the conversation turned toward
[00:37:18.720] well you know uh what do you think about
[00:37:21.520] selling that to me?
[00:37:23.359] >> This is Bob speaking.
[00:37:24.640] >> Yeah. Yeah. And that conversation took
[00:37:26.960] off and the next thing I know uh they
[00:37:30.720] say goodbye on the phone and now we're
[00:37:33.760] in August uh or sometime in August. Uh I
[00:37:37.200] guess we were in August for that whole
[00:37:38.880] period of time. Uh Bob gets back to us
[00:37:41.520] and he says uh to us, the three of us,
[00:37:43.839] George Colum, and I and he says, "I'm
[00:37:46.079] buying a ranch in Fortain, Utah, and
[00:37:49.040] we're going to take a trip out there
[00:37:50.240] next month in September of 96, and I'm
[00:37:53.599] going to take you guys out there, and
[00:37:55.280] this will be our trip out there to
[00:37:56.640] explore this property." And um and he
[00:37:58.640] gave us copies of Zach Vanick's articles
[00:38:00.720] for us to read and uh kind of prepare
[00:38:04.240] ourselves for what is going on.
[00:38:06.160] >> Wow.
[00:38:06.640] >> Okay. So, he had bought the round. So,
[00:38:08.640] so, so what kind of things are are
[00:38:10.000] reported in these in these um articles
[00:38:14.000] that that are supposedly going on?
[00:38:16.000] >> Well, it's the it's the various things
[00:38:17.440] you you probably are already familiar
[00:38:19.119] with. They had uh they had like um uh
[00:38:23.599] >> they had like a a a dire wolf type
[00:38:27.119] creature.
[00:38:28.160] >> Uh I think it was five or six feet tall
[00:38:31.599] at its shoulders when it stood on all
[00:38:33.359] fours. It could walk by pitily. Um, it
[00:38:37.040] encountered the group of the family that
[00:38:38.800] would have been Terry, his wife and
[00:38:40.480] kids, and probably uh his father and
[00:38:43.520] mother or her father and mother. I'm not
[00:38:45.119] sure about that detail at this time.
[00:38:46.560] It's been so long uh so long ago I since
[00:38:49.280] I've read those uh newspaper articles,
[00:38:51.599] but um uh uh they saw this thing come up
[00:38:55.680] to them. They froze in fear. They kind
[00:38:58.800] of took a real they had to take a
[00:39:00.880] relaxed calm attitude so that the animal
[00:39:02.960] wouldn't perceive they were fearing it
[00:39:04.560] because they didn't want to be attacked.
[00:39:06.160] >> Yeah.
[00:39:06.480] >> They were scared to death. So this
[00:39:07.839] animal's walking around sniffing among
[00:39:10.079] them and looking around and it didn't do
[00:39:11.839] anything to them. Um the next thing they
[00:39:14.079] know it just uh walks away, gets on hind
[00:39:17.520] legs, walks off and uh on on two legs
[00:39:21.440] and becomes semi-transparent.
[00:39:24.079] >> Wow.
[00:39:24.800] >> And just vanished off into the woods.
[00:39:27.440] And um uh and then there was an episode
[00:39:30.400] where they had a missing tool. There was
[00:39:32.400] an argument with Terry's son, Terrell.
[00:39:35.040] Um there was an important tool that he
[00:39:37.200] was used. I I think it had to do with
[00:39:38.880] fixing a a broken barb wire fence. Uh uh
[00:39:42.800] the tool went missing and Terrell's not
[00:39:44.800] been known to be irresponsible, but
[00:39:46.400] Terry was irate about it. So they had to
[00:39:48.960] have everybody looking for this tool.
[00:39:50.880] And so everybody's out there um looking
[00:39:53.200] for the tool and they can't find it. Uh,
[00:39:55.200] I think the next thing they know,
[00:39:56.720] somebody turns around and there it is.
[00:39:58.160] And I mean, it's right there in plain
[00:39:59.440] view, right where they were looking.
[00:40:01.440] >> So, um, they had a couple cattle
[00:40:04.560] mutilations.
[00:40:05.920] >> Um,
[00:40:08.320] >> they had three shepherd dogs, which are
[00:40:11.280] highly trained, bred, uh, shepherd dogs
[00:40:14.079] that are also hunting dogs, uh, that
[00:40:16.960] chased after a UFO on the ranch. And to
[00:40:19.280] make a long story short, uh, Terry had
[00:40:22.160] to go off and chasing the dogs. The dogs
[00:40:24.720] chased the phenomenon. I think it went
[00:40:26.880] around a bend from one from the far
[00:40:29.200] pasture to go behind a grove of trees
[00:40:32.000] heading toward a a big kind of a crevice
[00:40:34.800] where there's a creek running through
[00:40:36.079] the bottom of it.
[00:40:37.359] >> And uh he didn't see any sign of the
[00:40:40.320] dogs anymore and didn't hear anything
[00:40:42.720] from them anymore. I know.
[00:40:44.240] >> He came across an open area with three
[00:40:46.720] freshlymade piles of dark
[00:40:52.160] modeled ashes and it looked like the
[00:40:56.640] colors of the dogs for
[00:40:58.800] >> so he thought that the dogs had been
[00:41:00.480] reduced to ashes by the phenomen
[00:41:02.828] [clears throat]
[00:41:03.359] for me at that point.
[00:41:04.400] >> Yeah. And I don't remember if he told us
[00:41:06.000] what he smelled. I think there was a
[00:41:07.359] smell. He might have seen some smoke or
[00:41:10.240] something. I I I I'm vague on that. Um,
[00:41:13.119] but I strongly remember that right where
[00:41:16.480] right close together, three big, you
[00:41:20.319] know, three mounds, three mounds, uh,
[00:41:23.040] where where the dogs would have been.
[00:41:24.880] Uh, maybe he he didn't see what happened
[00:41:27.040] to them, but he was sure that that was
[00:41:29.280] the dogs.
[00:41:30.560] >> Um, because they could never find them
[00:41:32.720] again,
[00:41:33.200] >> man. So, you're reading all this stuff.
[00:41:35.839] >> And that's not unusual
[00:41:38.160] thing. Uh, he's never seen that before.
[00:41:40.720] Okay. you know, they're they're it
[00:41:43.040] looked like they had been set a flame
[00:41:44.640] and reduced ashes.
[00:41:46.720] >> Uh but yet
[00:41:48.400] >> the color was similar. Maybe the fur
[00:41:50.240] didn't all burn or something.
[00:41:52.160] >> Um
[00:41:53.280] >> so so you're reading all this,
[00:41:55.520] >> you know, a man of of of science. What
[00:41:57.599] What are you thinking at this point? Are
[00:41:58.720] you like
[00:41:59.119] >> I'm thinking this is farther belong this
[00:42:00.960] is far beyond the UFO that my wife and I
[00:42:03.200] saw in Tucson in May of ' 89.
[00:42:05.920] >> Oh, I didn't hear that story
[00:42:06.960] >> cuz that was my first experience and
[00:42:08.880] that had nothing to do with this. I'm
[00:42:10.160] I'm in graduate school. Okay. I'm I'm uh
[00:42:13.040] just uh 7 months from finishing my PhD
[00:42:16.800] dissertation and getting it turned in so
[00:42:19.520] I can schedule my oral defense in 1990.
[00:42:22.800] And um and so I'm at a party with my
[00:42:25.359] wife and we see a triangular shaped no
[00:42:27.680] no boomerang shaped
[00:42:30.240] >> um UFO craft black
[00:42:33.680] >> uh in the late afternoon in the sky
[00:42:36.560] below traffic pattern altitude. and I
[00:42:38.880] have a private pilot's license and I
[00:42:40.640] used to fly my plane all around Tucson.
[00:42:42.720] Okay.
[00:42:43.119] >> And so I know what the traffic pattern
[00:42:44.880] altitude is. I'm familiar with all the
[00:42:46.560] altitudes all the way until you you land
[00:42:48.800] on the runway and um and so this was
[00:42:51.599] below traffic pattern altitude
[00:42:53.200] definitely below the altitude of it
[00:42:55.520] would be at and below the altitude of
[00:42:58.240] police helicopters. So it was at that
[00:43:01.119] altitude and it was just hovering and
[00:43:03.760] turning.
[00:43:04.400] >> Mhm.
[00:43:04.880] >> So that the rear side of it, the inset
[00:43:08.480] um became uh was facing me and the nose
[00:43:12.160] of it was facing in the opposite
[00:43:13.920] direction roughly southeast
[00:43:16.240] >> from my position. I'm up in the
[00:43:17.760] foothills of the Catalina Mountains. My
[00:43:20.000] wife was and I were at a pool party that
[00:43:22.079] my dissertation supervisor was having
[00:43:24.640] that day. um I think it was a Saturday
[00:43:27.760] and um she's on the other side of the
[00:43:29.920] pool talking with all the wives and
[00:43:31.599] girlfriends. I'm with all the postocs,
[00:43:34.319] grad students, undergraduate students
[00:43:36.000] and we all work for my boss on the
[00:43:37.920] Voyager 2 and Voyager 1, okay,
[00:43:40.079] ultraviolet spectrometer uh experiment
[00:43:42.480] and I'm the one doing my dissertation on
[00:43:44.400] the plasma taurus at Jupiter. Uh one of
[00:43:47.359] the postocs was doing the same thing.
[00:43:49.119] His girlfriend, future wife, was an
[00:43:51.200] astronomer. um she was working on her
[00:43:53.520] PhD in astronomy and doing stellar
[00:43:56.480] studies and uh I know the other folks
[00:43:59.119] were lab technicians
[00:44:01.280] um married, single, you know, we had a
[00:44:04.240] mix of people. Not a single one of them
[00:44:06.319] saw it except my wife. Wow. So, she's on
[00:44:08.400] the other on on the other side of the
[00:44:10.000] pool uh at a table with all the women
[00:44:12.400] and I'm with most of the guys and they
[00:44:15.040] didn't see anything and I didn't find
[00:44:17.200] out until we were driving home that she
[00:44:18.960] saw something cuz she asked me about it
[00:44:21.520] >> and then I said,
[00:44:22.079] >> "How big was it?"
[00:44:22.960] >> H
[00:44:23.280] >> how big was it? My estimate was it was
[00:44:26.240] probably the wingspan of a um
[00:44:31.920] probably the wingspan of two
[00:44:35.920] I think F-14 Tomcats with the wings
[00:44:38.480] extended.
[00:44:39.520] >> Okay.
[00:44:39.920] >> And I don't know what that wingspan is.
[00:44:41.599] >> So it's like a double a fighter jet
[00:44:43.520] basically.
[00:44:43.839] >> Yeah. Double fighter jet.
[00:44:44.800] >> So So knowing what you know now, do you
[00:44:47.280] think that was a a human UFO like
[00:44:50.400] experimental craft something going on or
[00:44:52.720] >> No. No. No. No. This thing was mostly
[00:44:54.800] hovering. [laughter]
[00:44:55.599] >> Wow. Okay.
[00:44:56.480] >> It wasn't a balloon either. And so uh
[00:44:58.880] it's mostly hovering plus black color
[00:45:00.800] doesn't work. Um uh es especially for
[00:45:04.560] experimental aircraft um of that of a
[00:45:07.200] military type. So it's it's rotating and
[00:45:10.800] slowly ascending. And I mean it's
[00:45:13.200] ascending slower than I would send my B
[00:45:15.760] skipper or my GMAN AA5A or AA5B,
[00:45:19.200] whichever one of those three I was
[00:45:20.400] renting at the time. when I'm uh in the
[00:45:22.720] traffic pattern altitude and I'm
[00:45:24.480] ascending up to a higher altitude to
[00:45:26.240] either avoid traffic or leave or
[00:45:28.480] whatever I was going to do.
[00:45:29.920] >> But uh when you're ascending, you're
[00:45:31.440] ascending at uh uh well overund, you
[00:45:34.800] know, up around 150 knots. This thing
[00:45:37.520] was not ascending very fast. It was more
[00:45:40.319] like a crawl.
[00:45:41.520] >> And it was like an airship or something.
[00:45:43.599] Huh.
[00:45:43.839] >> It almost sounds like an airship or
[00:45:45.359] something.
[00:45:46.240] >> Well, we don't have airship like that.
[00:45:48.560] >> No, we don't. We don't. Yes. But but
[00:45:50.720] yeah,
[00:45:51.200] >> but not the military either. They don't
[00:45:52.720] have airship like that.
[00:45:53.599] >> Yes. Yeah, that's what I mean.
[00:45:55.040] >> Yeah. So, the other part of this is I
[00:45:56.800] see this UFO from from the back patio.
[00:45:59.599] My my supervisor, my dissertation
[00:46:01.839] supervisor has this really large patio
[00:46:04.640] area. It goes in one direction toward
[00:46:06.800] the pool and then um in the other
[00:46:09.119] direction on the back side of the house.
[00:46:10.560] So, we're on the side of the house and
[00:46:12.160] the pool goes around to the back side of
[00:46:13.839] the house. So, we're on on the side on
[00:46:16.400] the side of the house, not the back.
[00:46:18.160] >> Mhm. um uh we would be on the east side
[00:46:20.640] of the house. So uh I asked the guys at
[00:46:23.920] my table, "Wow, I just saw this thing.
[00:46:26.480] Did you see it?" And they said, "What
[00:46:28.880] are you talking about?" I told described
[00:46:30.480] what it was. A black boomerang shaped
[00:46:32.560] object and it was rotating
[00:46:35.520] uh
[00:46:37.040] clockwise and its nose was starting to
[00:46:39.520] incline upward. Pitch upwards is what we
[00:46:41.760] call it. And uh it was slowly ascending
[00:46:44.560] up during our conversations and they
[00:46:46.880] said, "Oh no, that was a police
[00:46:48.560] helicopter."
[00:46:51.440] >> And uh my wife's oldest brother was a
[00:46:54.160] cop on the Tucson Police Department. He
[00:46:56.560] was actually um uh in internal affairs
[00:47:00.160] >> and uh uh I've seen their police
[00:47:02.640] helicopter many times, both that with my
[00:47:04.800] own eyes and coming and going from the
[00:47:06.720] airport and I've seen it in the
[00:47:08.000] newspaper. It is not black and it is not
[00:47:09.920] boomerang shaped. It's uh kind of a
[00:47:12.400] cream colored with um Tucson Police
[00:47:14.960] Department uh logo on it and its own
[00:47:17.680] color scheme. Uh but overall it's got a
[00:47:20.640] cream colored uh cover uh cream, I'm
[00:47:23.760] sorry, a cream colored cover on the
[00:47:26.720] fuselage.
[00:47:27.920] >> Interesting.
[00:47:28.400] >> So anyway, this thing did not have a
[00:47:29.920] fuselage. It did not have uh external uh
[00:47:33.839] aerodynamic control surfaces. Although,
[00:47:36.480] like I said, it's shaped like a
[00:47:37.599] boomerang, but uh you couldn't see jet
[00:47:41.680] engine intake or exhaust or the jet
[00:47:44.160] engine uh being mounted below the below
[00:47:47.440] the boomerang structure. There was no
[00:47:50.800] rocket engine exhaust. No, you couldn't
[00:47:53.280] see a jet exhaust. You couldn't see a
[00:47:54.880] rocket engine exhaust. You couldn't see
[00:47:56.800] anything. It It didn't have any
[00:47:58.560] observable um propulsion system
[00:48:01.200] consistent with aviation either. Jet
[00:48:03.200] engine. Oh, no propellers, too. This
[00:48:05.440] thing had no propeller on it. You
[00:48:07.200] couldn't hear noise coming from it. And
[00:48:09.359] um it had no aviation lights on it,
[00:48:11.200] which are mandatory. So, it had no uh
[00:48:14.000] right green light, uh left red light,
[00:48:17.440] headlight. You don't usually run your
[00:48:18.960] headlights in the middle of the day. Um
[00:48:21.119] and there's no strobe on it like on the
[00:48:23.359] tail uh um at the back of the epanage
[00:48:26.640] where you have the rudder and the
[00:48:27.920] aileron. On top of the rudder, you'll
[00:48:29.440] have a strobe and you might have a
[00:48:31.200] strobe in the middle of fuse lodge and
[00:48:33.440] um nothing. it was absolutely without
[00:48:36.079] light. So, it's uh climbing up and then
[00:48:38.480] finally the sun is the terminator of the
[00:48:40.640] sky because the sun is now setting in
[00:48:42.240] the west sky behind the uh Tucson
[00:48:44.400] Mountains. Uh the terminator is going
[00:48:46.559] across the sky while we're all
[00:48:47.920] bullshitting about uh planetary and
[00:48:50.640] stellar physics and things that we're
[00:48:52.400] all doing on our dissertations. Um
[00:48:55.760] u and uh this thing is just get keeps
[00:48:58.640] going up and up and now it's inclining
[00:49:00.319] even further. I could see more of the
[00:49:02.240] top of this thing and it's still looking
[00:49:04.720] like a boomerang shape. And then
[00:49:06.640] suddenly four large square lights came
[00:49:10.319] on on that back inset
[00:49:12.640] >> and uh red, blue, green, and yellow in
[00:49:14.960] that order.
[00:49:17.520] >> And it was weird because they were
[00:49:19.280] square, perfectly square next to each
[00:49:21.920] other and they felt that space in the
[00:49:24.160] back of the boomerang. And uh they came
[00:49:26.880] on uh dark started falling as we're
[00:49:30.640] going on into the evening. And this
[00:49:33.119] thing has gotten very high up. It's uh I
[00:49:35.599] I think it's well above 10,000 ft. Um
[00:49:39.760] probably probably heading toward 15 by
[00:49:42.240] then.
[00:49:42.800] >> So you're not mentioning this to anyone
[00:49:44.319] else as you're seeing it?
[00:49:45.680] >> No, they they they laughed at me when I
[00:49:48.079] asked them during daytime and they said,
[00:49:50.000] "No, that was a police helicopter flying
[00:49:51.760] around."
[00:49:52.480] >> But while you're seeing it, you're not
[00:49:53.760] like, "What is that? What is this thing
[00:49:55.119] over here?
[00:49:56.160] >> No, I'm just staring at it. I'm just
[00:49:58.480] captivated by it.
[00:49:59.280] >> How long did the whole thing last?
[00:50:00.720] >> Oh god. Half an hour.
[00:50:02.559] >> Whoa. Wow. That's a long time.
[00:50:04.319] >> So, it uh so it got up really high. Uh
[00:50:07.920] it probably could have been heading
[00:50:09.440] toward 20,000 ft. The lights went off.
[00:50:12.559] Those big square lights just went off
[00:50:14.880] and the blackness of this thing blended
[00:50:17.280] in with the darkening sky and I couldn't
[00:50:19.119] keep see it anymore.
[00:50:20.319] >> Wow. Crazy.
[00:50:21.440] >> These guys are all talking and going on.
[00:50:23.280] So, they've already told me it's a
[00:50:24.559] helicopter. I'm not going to pug them
[00:50:26.000] again. I tried I did try to say, "Turn
[00:50:28.000] around and look at it." And they
[00:50:29.280] wouldn't do it.
[00:50:30.079] >> Wow. Wow. Do Do you think that that
[00:50:32.480] could be part of the phenomena or is it
[00:50:34.400] just everybody's so socially distracted?
[00:50:36.480] Or does this strike you as part of the
[00:50:38.400] hard
[00:50:38.800] >> the mental aspect of how these things
[00:50:40.880] happen? Because you hear these stories
[00:50:42.160] that
[00:50:42.800] >> that these things can
[00:50:44.880] >> almost self-camouflage themselves
[00:50:47.200] through people just not acknowledging
[00:50:50.400] that it's there, you know, and
[00:50:52.640] >> or or or appearing like something
[00:50:54.240] prosaic, but then to some people it
[00:50:56.000] looks very strange, but to other people
[00:50:58.079] it looks something like something normal
[00:50:59.680] like a helicopter. Well, I think it's
[00:51:01.440] probably a combination of the two, but
[00:51:02.880] probably more of the social engagement
[00:51:04.800] going on at the time. Everybody was too
[00:51:06.800] busy chatting about their next paper
[00:51:08.960] they're going to give an oral
[00:51:09.839] presentation on at the geohysical union
[00:51:13.040] meeting or the uh American Physical
[00:51:15.040] Society meeting or the American
[00:51:16.480] Astronomical Society meeting and um what
[00:51:19.359] grade they got on their PhD prelim exams
[00:51:22.240] and if they're going to go on and take
[00:51:23.680] the oral exam or not um etc etc. So, I
[00:51:28.240] think everybody was busy with that. I
[00:51:30.079] don't think they were going to give me
[00:51:31.599] any credence for what I pointed out to
[00:51:33.440] them. They already made up their mind.
[00:51:34.800] It was a helicopter. And as the as the e
[00:51:37.760] as the evening started emerging, this
[00:51:40.079] thing got farther away. And I could and
[00:51:42.000] I was not able to stay keep my eyes on
[00:51:45.040] it because when those four bright these
[00:51:48.160] lights were bright like neon like Las
[00:51:50.640] Vegas neon lights, probably even more
[00:51:52.960] brilliant. I would think they would be
[00:51:54.319] more consistent with really brilliant
[00:51:55.920] LED lights of today. Mhm.
[00:51:57.920] >> Not the gas neon lights.
[00:51:59.920] >> Okay.
[00:52:00.480] >> So, they were brilliant and it's like
[00:52:03.920] they stood out so I was able to see this
[00:52:05.920] thing until those lights went out. I
[00:52:07.920] could barely see anything left of that
[00:52:09.520] thing and it just kind of blended into
[00:52:11.280] the darkness and I lost track of it.
[00:52:12.800] >> Wow.
[00:52:13.280] >> So, I I think they were preoccupied. Uh,
[00:52:16.079] nobody
[00:52:18.319] >> I don't know. It just didn't seem like
[00:52:19.920] it grabbed their attention. Maybe we
[00:52:21.440] better turn around and look and and see
[00:52:23.040] what Eric sees. And
[00:52:24.960] >> and they didn't do that. They they said
[00:52:27.200] they heard a helicopter and and somebody
[00:52:30.000] said, "Oh yeah, that was the police
[00:52:31.359] helicopter." And it and the first person
[00:52:33.359] said, "Oh, yeah, that's right. It was a
[00:52:34.880] police helicopter."
[00:52:36.559] >> It's like, what?
[00:52:38.240] >> That's wild, man. So So this was an
[00:52:41.280] aside from you're you're starting to go
[00:52:43.920] down the rabbit hole of these alleged
[00:52:46.319] experiences at skinwalker and you're
[00:52:48.240] you're reading about these bipeedal
[00:52:50.640] direwolf like things. You're reading
[00:52:52.480] about all these crazy,
[00:52:55.119] you know, kinds of high weirdness. Is
[00:52:56.960] this striking you as like there's no way
[00:52:58.720] this is true or like what are you
[00:53:00.079] thinking at this point before you go
[00:53:01.359] down there?
[00:53:01.760] >> Well, during that period, I'm reading
[00:53:03.040] Jacques's books now. The ones I did know
[00:53:04.800] about, Revelations, Dimensions, and
[00:53:07.200] Confrontations. Then I read the Passport
[00:53:09.440] to Monia. I read the first uh he only
[00:53:12.720] had the first volume of Forbidden
[00:53:14.480] Science out.
[00:53:15.599] >> Um and uh there's one other one,
[00:53:18.480] >> Invisible. Invisible. So, I read that.
[00:53:21.280] Now, I'm seeing there's a lot more to
[00:53:23.359] this than I thought. I read Harley
[00:53:25.440] Right's book. Um, I've read James
[00:53:28.880] McDonald's papers from the University of
[00:53:30.720] Arizona. I think that was him. Yeah. But
[00:53:33.359] anyway, um, there were Oh, there was
[00:53:35.680] James Mccell and a James McDonald. Uh, I
[00:53:39.359] think I might have this backwards. Uh, I
[00:53:42.319] think Mc Mccell was at the University of
[00:53:45.599] Arizona and McDonald was somewhere else,
[00:53:48.079] but it could be backwards.
[00:53:49.839] >> So, so you're reading enough stuff now
[00:53:51.520] that you're like, okay, there could be
[00:53:53.200] this is there's precedent for this kind
[00:53:55.440] of it's weird, but there's precedent.
[00:53:56.960] And these are by and remember Jacqu Vali
[00:53:58.960] went to the University of Texas Austin
[00:54:01.599] to get his master's degree in astronomy
[00:54:04.880] >> and um and he had his first I think his
[00:54:07.599] bachelor's degree at the Sorbone when he
[00:54:10.240] was still in France and um then he went
[00:54:13.119] to Northwestern University to get his uh
[00:54:15.040] PhD in artificial intelligence in
[00:54:16.960] computer science and that's where he ran
[00:54:18.880] into Alan Heinik.
[00:54:20.240] >> Okay.
[00:54:20.800] >> Okay. That's how he met Alan Heinik and
[00:54:22.960] he talked about that at contact in the
[00:54:24.880] desert when he had a discussion panel
[00:54:27.119] with the Heinik kids.
[00:54:28.400] >> Yeah. All middle all elderly, you know.
[00:54:30.640] >> I missed it unfortunately.
[00:54:32.079] >> Oh boy. So, uh, he went through the
[00:54:34.240] whole history of Heinik's life. Then he
[00:54:36.880] got to where he entered Heinik's life
[00:54:38.720] and how they got together and worked on
[00:54:40.559] the Project Blue Book stuff during the
[00:54:42.480] 60s. Um, and he saw Heinik evolve away
[00:54:46.480] from the swamp gas Venus. um debunking
[00:54:50.960] explanation of UFO reports towards this
[00:54:54.880] is something more sophisticated. It is
[00:54:56.960] not explainable in terms of oh that's
[00:54:59.680] the planet Venus or oh that was swamp
[00:55:01.680] gas or a plasma uh you know so uh they
[00:55:05.599] were both realizing that this is a far
[00:55:08.240] more complicated phenomenon and they
[00:55:10.800] were both realizing that this is a high
[00:55:12.800] technology phenomenon and this high
[00:55:15.040] technology also has a psychic component.
[00:55:17.760] Yeah. It has an anti-physical and a
[00:55:19.760] psych and psychic components. Those are
[00:55:21.520] two of the six characteristics
[00:55:24.319] uh that Jacques and I wrote about in our
[00:55:26.640] portal paper of 2003. It got published
[00:55:29.520] as a proceedings uh uh in 2005. I don't
[00:55:32.800] know why it's the uh Fernando Poa
[00:55:35.440] University. They held I don't know if
[00:55:37.920] they still do but they were holding the
[00:55:39.839] international
[00:55:42.079] forum on science, religion, and
[00:55:44.000] consciousness. Mhm.
[00:55:45.359] >> And Jacques and I were invited to uh
[00:55:47.760] submit a paper and we did on UFOs. So
[00:55:50.559] that's when we categorized the six
[00:55:52.480] characteristics of UAP as we now call
[00:55:55.280] it. And um and two of those are
[00:55:57.760] anti-physical and psychic. Third one is
[00:56:00.000] physical. Um there's a psychological
[00:56:03.119] one. I think there's a social one. And
[00:56:06.000] um uh so I'm I know I'm missing one
[00:56:08.799] probably cultural. So,
[00:56:11.040] >> so back back to
[00:56:11.920] >> so it it it involves it's something that
[00:56:15.920] that the UFO investigative research and
[00:56:18.559] or investigation research organizations
[00:56:20.799] were really guilty of during the 70s and
[00:56:22.799] 80s and 90s and probably even up to
[00:56:25.200] today. They completely ignored the
[00:56:29.200] anti-physical and psychic component of
[00:56:32.400] the phenomenon at their peril.
[00:56:34.480] >> Yeah. because you don't experience the
[00:56:37.040] phenomenon without all six components or
[00:56:40.960] features or characteristics I should
[00:56:42.640] say. When you have an experience all of
[00:56:45.359] them are present
[00:56:46.960] >> and um uh to ignore the psychic and
[00:56:50.319] anti-physical is is throwing away
[00:56:53.119] scientific data and and are that that's
[00:56:56.000] what we concluded. And um and so when
[00:56:59.520] you when you excise data from the
[00:57:03.280] experience that's being reported to you
[00:57:05.200] by eyewitnesses, you're basically uh uh
[00:57:09.680] harming the analysis and the con and
[00:57:12.880] you're going to distort the conclusion
[00:57:14.720] that you reach.
[00:57:15.920] >> Right? And um uh it's a really it's bad
[00:57:19.280] science and it the study of the
[00:57:22.319] phenomenon requires the holistic
[00:57:25.040] investigation, holistic research study.
[00:57:27.760] And that means you've got to consider
[00:57:29.359] all six of those characteristics. And uh
[00:57:32.319] you've got to and nowadays we say, you
[00:57:34.640] know, you want to bring in philosophers,
[00:57:36.640] you want to bring in religious studies
[00:57:38.319] people, uh social studies people, you've
[00:57:41.200] got to bring those in because this
[00:57:42.559] phenomena impacts those areas. uh very
[00:57:46.319] heavily and uh historically and so uh
[00:57:50.720] and so this this this was exhibited at
[00:57:54.400] the NIDS UFO ranch. It didn't become
[00:57:56.400] Skywalker Skinwalker Ranch until Bass
[00:57:59.280] took over uh after NID shut down and
[00:58:02.240] Bigalow started rotating a security team
[00:58:04.160] from Bigalor Space to work out there.
[00:58:06.559] >> So uh
[00:58:07.920] >> well what ends up happening when when
[00:58:09.440] you eventually go to the ranch because
[00:58:10.720] you end up spending a lot of time at the
[00:58:12.559] ranch on and off, right? of the six
[00:58:14.240] years I worked at NDS, I I spent five
[00:58:16.160] years there. Bob cut us off
[00:58:17.839] >> in August of 2001, literally five years
[00:58:21.119] from the date we first went. Well, I
[00:58:22.799] said September 96, so uh four years and
[00:58:26.319] 11 months on the ranch. Um
[00:58:29.119] >> what did you experience and find over
[00:58:31.839] your
[00:58:32.240] >> more than we have time to talk about,
[00:58:33.599] but
[00:58:35.839] by Keller Nap that details it. I think
[00:58:39.599] they missed
[00:58:41.440] or skipped a couple of incidents. I just
[00:58:44.640] didn't see them. I read that book when
[00:58:46.160] it came out in 2004
[00:58:48.640] and I I knew in the back of my mind that
[00:58:52.319] there were a couple events that got
[00:58:54.240] overlooked
[00:58:55.200] >> and maybe it's because Colum forgot
[00:58:56.799] about him or what, but
[00:58:59.119] >> um but uh I had um a telepathic contact
[00:59:02.799] with the dark with the black shadow that
[00:59:05.040] unfolded in a grove of trees at the at
[00:59:07.680] the old homes pioneer homestead. Um,
[00:59:11.040] before that happened, just minutes
[00:59:12.640] before that happened, Colum and I
[00:59:14.400] witnessed a a a white orb hovering a a a
[00:59:18.079] foot a yard above the ground, right in
[00:59:20.880] front of the the big tree trunk of a
[00:59:23.920] Russian olive tree. And um so we were
[00:59:27.040] probably uh from where we were standing
[00:59:30.799] more than 10 it was more than 10 yards,
[00:59:32.960] but I think it was between 10 and 20
[00:59:34.880] yards away from us. Not that far. What
[00:59:37.359] was this psychic connection to this
[00:59:38.880] black shadow? Like
[00:59:40.319] >> that was it coming into my mind and I'm
[00:59:44.319] not hearing it come into my hearing aids
[00:59:46.319] or my ears. Yeah. Uh you know I'm still
[00:59:48.559] listening. I still have a hearing aid in
[00:59:50.160] the right ear and no hearing aid in my
[00:59:51.599] left ear. This is the better ear, the
[00:59:53.040] left ear. And um uh I just lost control
[00:59:57.040] of my body. No senses and stuff like
[00:59:58.880] that. The only senses that were working
[01:00:00.480] was just my eyes. I was uh look using
[01:00:03.359] the night vision binoculars to kind of
[01:00:05.119] search around. I'm looking for another
[01:00:06.799] orb. I'm thinking, well, that orb was
[01:00:08.720] there. We both saw it with our eyes. The
[01:00:11.440] two um ranch um uh cattle, shepherd
[01:00:15.599] dogs, hunting dogs, those two dogs saw
[01:00:19.040] it cuz they were looking at it and were
[01:00:21.760] frozen in place next to each of us. Uh
[01:00:24.319] we were he and I were a few yards apart
[01:00:27.040] standing uh in an open pasture. The old
[01:00:31.040] dilapitated uh pioneer homes were over
[01:00:33.520] here. the ranch road. The dirt road was
[01:00:35.680] over on the other side of them. And uh
[01:00:38.000] there's a grove of trees in front with
[01:00:39.520] barbed wire and an outhouse. And then we
[01:00:41.760] have the rest of the pasture that way.
[01:00:43.680] And then we have an open pasture gate.
[01:00:45.680] Uh the fence was open right here to let
[01:00:48.720] the cattle through to the far west
[01:00:51.200] pasture. And um and there's no cattle
[01:00:53.599] present, by the way. They're all pinned
[01:00:56.000] up u about a half a mile away. So um uh
[01:01:00.720] and so we see the orb. Um there's still
[01:01:03.760] daylight. No. Uh yeah, there it was sun.
[01:01:06.799] Yeah, it was uh past twilight, so we had
[01:01:09.920] a little bit of sunlight left and it was
[01:01:12.880] darkening, but we saw that bright orb
[01:01:14.720] and it was clear as day. And I thought,
[01:01:16.319] "Oh, that could be a a ranch home's uh
[01:01:18.880] porch light."
[01:01:20.079] >> And I've been then been then looking at
[01:01:21.599] it thinking, "Wait a minute. The ranch
[01:01:23.119] home, the ranch porch light I know of is
[01:01:26.400] not that color and it's the other
[01:01:28.559] direction. It's uh more of the Let's
[01:01:31.200] see. That's west, east. So, that would
[01:01:34.319] have had to been uh south. So, it's more
[01:01:37.040] of the southwest direction from where I
[01:01:38.880] was standing. And um and it's not white.
[01:01:42.319] It's uh an amber color. And it's up
[01:01:45.119] high. This thing was just 3 feet above
[01:01:48.160] the ground. And it's right in front of a
[01:01:49.680] tree trunk. So, it's not shining from a
[01:01:52.319] porch. [laughter]
[01:01:53.760] And the And these ranches are quite a
[01:01:56.240] distance apart. You know, they're acres
[01:01:57.760] and acres apart, right? They're not next
[01:01:59.839] door. So it was so the porch light
[01:02:03.040] explanation got eliminated right away.
[01:02:05.520] So [clears throat] we saw it uh without
[01:02:07.599] the night vision and uh so my reaction
[01:02:10.880] now is well it winked out. It's gone. So
[01:02:14.079] I take the IT&T third generation night
[01:02:16.480] vision. These are military class night
[01:02:18.720] vision binoculars that we got a license
[01:02:20.559] to be able to buy because they're
[01:02:22.720] military technology. And uh I'm looking
[01:02:25.359] all around for uh for another orb. I'm
[01:02:29.119] trying to see if that orb reappears
[01:02:30.799] somewhere else in the vicinity. Can't
[01:02:32.960] see it. I look at the up at the grove of
[01:02:35.440] trees. It's um uh it's early spring, so
[01:02:40.079] the leaves haven't grown back on the
[01:02:41.839] trees. We have bare branches, and I can
[01:02:44.880] hear the crickets in the creek uh or
[01:02:47.680] crickets everywhere else, but I hear
[01:02:50.079] frogs croaking and crickets in the
[01:02:51.760] creek. And um uh all of a sudden I'm
[01:02:54.799] looking up through through the branches
[01:02:56.640] and I can see the night sky through the
[01:02:59.119] bare branches with stars. Um I can see
[01:03:02.160] the range of mountains in the far west
[01:03:04.240] below them below below the branches and
[01:03:07.119] below the stars. That's the that's the
[01:03:08.960] west horizon.
[01:03:11.040] Then all of a sudden from on the far far
[01:03:13.359] right of the grove of trees closest to
[01:03:16.160] the road, this dark spot appears and it
[01:03:19.599] starts growing in size. But it grows in
[01:03:22.240] size to envelope the canopy of this
[01:03:24.960] grove of trees. And it goes from right
[01:03:27.359] to left. And uh and it ends to my left
[01:03:31.839] because that's where the barb wire fence
[01:03:34.319] is uh ends where there's a post where
[01:03:37.760] you would have a gate that you would
[01:03:39.119] close. Like it's a very long gate. And
[01:03:41.839] so um I want to move the binoculars away
[01:03:47.280] from my face. Turn and tell column what
[01:03:49.280] I'm seeing. Can't. I'm frozen. I can't
[01:03:51.280] move a muscle.
[01:03:52.240] >> Wow.
[01:03:52.720] >> So, I no longer hear the crickets, no
[01:03:54.720] longer hear the frogs. Uh I the wind is
[01:03:57.839] broke. We have a breeze and it's not and
[01:04:00.079] usually any breezes. And it was in the
[01:04:01.839] right direction. It was in the right
[01:04:03.200] direction to hit the microphones in my
[01:04:04.640] hearing aids and I'm always hearing that
[01:04:06.079] b that noise that it creates. Uh so I'm
[01:04:09.359] not hearing the breeze saturate the
[01:04:11.359] microphones. So that's gone. I can't
[01:04:14.319] move my body. I can't do anything. I
[01:04:16.880] want to move my head. I can't move my
[01:04:18.480] head. I can't open my mouth. I want to
[01:04:20.240] talk. and I can't and I want to take the
[01:04:22.240] binoculars off my eyes and I can't. All
[01:04:24.960] I see is this black shadow and the next
[01:04:28.480] thing I know this incredibly loud
[01:04:30.720] multiple metallic- like voices uh are in
[01:04:34.480] my head.
[01:04:35.359] >> Wow.
[01:04:35.839] >> And I'm not hearing it come through my
[01:04:38.240] ear or my hearing aid which would be my
[01:04:40.400] ear pores. Instead it's inside my head
[01:04:42.799] and it's pretty loud and it says we are
[01:04:44.400] here. we are watching you and a very tur
[01:04:48.400] slow pace of a tone. So it's a tur tone
[01:04:51.760] slowpaced speech. We are here.
[01:04:55.599] We are watching you. And um and not long
[01:05:01.680] after that, I think probably a
[01:05:04.559] a second after that, all of a sudden
[01:05:07.520] both ends of this dark shadow started
[01:05:10.240] coming together toward the middle. And
[01:05:12.640] they started folding in on themselves
[01:05:14.720] like some geometrical turbulence. and it
[01:05:17.359] was folding in on itself until uh it
[01:05:20.079] folded into a point and vanished.
[01:05:22.720] >> Wow.
[01:05:23.839] >> Then I'm hearing noise. I can hear the
[01:05:26.160] wind blowing into my hearing aid
[01:05:27.520] microphones. Uh I'm starting to hear the
[01:05:30.160] crickets. Um I can Oh, that's another
[01:05:33.920] thing. I couldn't even feel the wind on
[01:05:36.240] my body. I couldn't feel the air
[01:05:38.160] temperature.
[01:05:38.559] >> Like you're in like a parallel dimension
[01:05:40.000] or something almost.
[01:05:41.039] >> No, it's just uh my senses got cut off.
[01:05:44.640] Uh, it was probably because it got into
[01:05:46.240] my mind and probably dis disconnected my
[01:05:48.960] sensory system except for my eyes. Okay.
[01:05:52.240] So, I'm now feeling the air, the
[01:05:54.559] temperature in the air. I can hear now.
[01:05:56.960] I noticed I can move. I pulled the
[01:05:58.319] binoculars off and I said, "Collum, did
[01:06:00.799] you see that?" And he said, "No, I saw
[01:06:03.520] you looking at the trees with the
[01:06:06.079] binoculars." And he said, "One of the
[01:06:08.559] dog, the dog next to me pressed up
[01:06:10.880] against my left leg and was staring
[01:06:13.039] right at the trees." At the same time
[01:06:15.440] you were and you had the other dog
[01:06:18.000] pressed up against your right leg and it
[01:06:20.160] was doing the same thing as the first
[01:06:21.839] dog was doing. They both were pressed up
[01:06:24.160] against our legs looking up at the trees
[01:06:26.319] while you were and by the way your mouth
[01:06:28.799] was moving and you were saying some
[01:06:30.480] weird in a voice I've never heard
[01:06:32.480] you speak before. He heard me say, "We
[01:06:34.880] are here. we are watching you come out
[01:06:36.640] of my mouth. But he said it was in not
[01:06:39.039] in my normal voice. He said it was a
[01:06:41.200] very odd he couldn't describe it. He
[01:06:44.480] couldn't describe it. I described to him
[01:06:45.920] how the voice sounded in my head, but he
[01:06:48.160] said he he just couldn't put a
[01:06:50.799] characterize it. Um he just said it was
[01:06:53.280] not my voice. He said it was absolutely
[01:06:55.200] not my voice that was speaking. And I
[01:06:57.359] said but I couldn't move my mouth. I
[01:07:00.160] tried to move my mouth to talk to you
[01:07:02.799] and I couldn't move my body. I could
[01:07:04.480] move any muscle in my body and I wanted
[01:07:07.039] to talk and take the binoculars off my
[01:07:08.799] eyes so I could turn to you and and give
[01:07:10.960] you the binocular. I wanted to give him
[01:07:12.240] the binoculars so he could see it with
[01:07:14.240] with its own eyes through the
[01:07:15.440] binoculars. And I said I couldn't I was
[01:07:17.520] frozen. I couldn't hear anything. I
[01:07:19.119] couldn't feel anything. The only thing I
[01:07:20.799] could do was see this whole thing
[01:07:22.079] unfold. And then that message came into
[01:07:24.160] my head and he said, "Well, you were
[01:07:27.200] staring at the trees and you said that
[01:07:29.359] but um but that wasn't your voice." And
[01:07:33.839] it's not anything I've ever heard come
[01:07:35.680] out of your mouth before.
[01:07:36.640] >> That's wild. Was this the only time you
[01:07:38.160] encountered this phenomenon?
[01:07:39.200] >> Yeah, this the only time. Now, he had a
[01:07:41.359] uh a camera which he always carries. And
[01:07:43.680] the camera car uh uh is loaded with uh
[01:07:48.559] chilled IR film. It has to be chilled
[01:07:51.520] because when IR film gets to ambient
[01:07:54.400] temperature, it's overexposed because
[01:07:56.240] that's what it is. It's going to be uh
[01:07:58.880] exposed to the ambient infrared
[01:08:00.720] radiation in the environment. So, it
[01:08:03.200] can't be out there for much more than
[01:08:06.720] some period of time. I don't remember.
[01:08:08.319] We were well inside that window because
[01:08:10.079] we took it out of the freezer, put
[01:08:11.839] loaded in the in the camera. Uh he affix
[01:08:14.880] the IR filter to the lens and uh we went
[01:08:18.000] out there and it doesn't take us that
[01:08:19.359] long to to go that distance out there on
[01:08:21.520] foot. So, um so he he basically was
[01:08:24.799] photographing everything. He
[01:08:26.480] photographed everything. He did not
[01:08:28.000] photograph that damned orb. Um but uh he
[01:08:32.080] photographed the event as I was seeing
[01:08:34.000] it as he was hearing it coming out of my
[01:08:36.159] mouth apparently. Um uh and uh just to
[01:08:40.480] fast forward through that story, we got
[01:08:42.880] the film in. I don't remember if we have
[01:08:44.719] to put it back in the fridge, but you
[01:08:46.080] can take it out of you have to take it
[01:08:47.520] out of the camera.
[01:08:48.799] >> Um and it's all wound up inside the film
[01:08:51.199] canister and I think we have to put it
[01:08:53.440] in the fridge. Um and so we took it to
[01:08:55.679] vernal and had it developed and it came
[01:08:57.679] back overexposed. Oh man. Yeah, this is
[01:09:00.480] this is an interesting conversation like
[01:09:02.159] side conversation in and of itself using
[01:09:04.560] IR and other kinds of film to maybe
[01:09:06.640] catch traces of of weird things. Um you
[01:09:09.679] you know Adam Curry, right?
[01:09:11.279] >> Who?
[01:09:11.679] >> Adam Curry. He's a he's a about my age.
[01:09:14.719] He's spoken at Contact in the Desert a
[01:09:16.560] bunch of times. Sigh researcher. He he
[01:09:19.279] knows you. But
[01:09:20.000] >> Oh, I didn't get to see him. I was so
[01:09:21.520] busy going to my
[01:09:22.400] >> Oh, Gotcha. Gotcha. Anyway, he turned me
[01:09:24.719] on to a book a while ago um by Trevor
[01:09:27.920] James Constable and he Trevor James
[01:09:30.560] Constable was this guy. It was called
[01:09:32.159] Cosmic Pulse of Life. Talks about a few
[01:09:34.640] different things in this book, but one
[01:09:36.080] of the things he's known for is trying
[01:09:38.000] to use infrared film and other kinds of
[01:09:40.799] film to to photograph what he believed
[01:09:43.839] were various different kinds of
[01:09:45.040] organisms like living in the atmosphere.
[01:09:47.440] Um, and they almost look like amoeba
[01:09:49.679] like blob things and sometimes geometric
[01:09:52.719] things. And it's one of those things
[01:09:54.159] where you look at it and it's very
[01:09:55.520] intriguing, but you don't know like what
[01:09:57.600] you're looking at exactly like if this
[01:09:59.360] really is a life form of some kind or if
[01:10:01.840] it's just a weird trick of the the film.
[01:10:04.880] How deep down the rabbit hole of, you
[01:10:06.640] know, infrared night, you know, night
[01:10:08.560] vision, these other kind of spectrums
[01:10:10.400] that are not visible, do do you think
[01:10:12.640] that that's a real way to capture
[01:10:14.800] phenomena? I had no idea because we've
[01:10:17.520] never been successful on the ranch
[01:10:18.880] capturing on film
[01:10:20.320] >> and uh we had four surveillance cameras
[01:10:22.560] out there that had night vision
[01:10:23.840] capability built into them. Uh they
[01:10:26.239] operate in the near IR that's what it
[01:10:28.000] was and uh they operated on 72-hour VHS
[01:10:31.920] time lap. So we would record all that
[01:10:35.280] and unfortunately we have to bring we
[01:10:37.520] when we make a trip out there we got to
[01:10:39.440] bring back all the VHS tapes with us.
[01:10:42.400] Terry Sherman's job was to replace the
[01:10:44.719] VHS tapes, monitor the the counters on
[01:10:47.679] each of the recorders to make sure that
[01:10:49.840] the the recording doesn't end before he
[01:10:53.040] takes out and puts a fresh tape in it to
[01:10:54.880] keep the recording going constantly. We
[01:10:56.800] want it
[01:10:58.080] >> 24-hour surveillance every day of the
[01:11:00.480] week. And so, um, then when we're out
[01:11:03.440] there for our week trip, um, weekl long
[01:11:06.400] trip, we collect the tapes, take them
[01:11:08.480] back to Vegas, and we got to sit and
[01:11:09.920] watch them on a TV monitor.
[01:11:12.239] all day long and we have to, you know,
[01:11:14.400] fast forward through some parts of it
[01:11:16.800] and so forth. Well, one fine day, uh, I
[01:11:21.280] don't remember if it was me, who it was,
[01:11:23.760] whether it was me or George or Colin,
[01:11:25.600] but one of us, um, discovered that one
[01:11:28.800] of the cameras died during the day.
[01:11:31.440] >> Mhm.
[01:11:32.000] >> So, he wound it back up. Um, yeah, he
[01:11:35.280] rewound it back to where you could see
[01:11:37.600] an image. So, what it is is one of the
[01:11:39.440] surveillance cameras was actually
[01:11:40.960] pointed toward the other surveillance
[01:11:42.719] cameras on the other telephone poles
[01:11:45.120] along the ranch road and uh and so this
[01:11:48.960] camera went dead and so he rewound it
[01:11:52.800] back to the point at which the image
[01:11:55.440] just dies and then you get static. So,
[01:11:57.679] we note the date and time. And so, we
[01:12:00.400] called up I think Colin called up Terry,
[01:12:02.640] told him what what happened. And, um,
[01:12:05.679] and Terry said, uh, the cameras are
[01:12:08.719] running at his end after he put new
[01:12:11.199] tapes in. Um, especially in that
[01:12:13.760] particular camera's monitor cuz not only
[01:12:16.480] do you have the VHS players, but you've
[01:12:18.400] got them on top of their own monitors.
[01:12:20.320] So Terry can go in there, we tell him
[01:12:22.159] camera two or whatever it was, and he'll
[01:12:24.239] look at that monitor and he said, "No,
[01:12:26.000] the monitor is running. The camera's
[01:12:27.679] operating and it's recording and so
[01:12:30.080] forth." So, um, he then uh Oh, I take it
[01:12:34.640] back. I take it back. That's wrong. He
[01:12:36.640] said the monitor was dead. That's right.
[01:12:38.640] It was dead. So, I I lapse a memory
[01:12:41.840] because of the years. So, um, yes, he
[01:12:44.640] did say the camera was dead because it's
[01:12:46.880] recording static. That's what the VHS
[01:12:49.280] monitor was showing was static. That's
[01:12:50.880] right. So, he went out there to take a
[01:12:53.360] look at the telephone pole it was on
[01:12:55.440] because it's got the cabling that runs
[01:12:58.400] from the house uh to go up the pole.
[01:13:01.360] It's tacked onto the pole to go up to
[01:13:03.040] the camera. And he discovered that the
[01:13:05.520] cable had been cut.
[01:13:06.880] >> Oh, wow.
[01:13:07.440] >> It wasn't torn away. it was cut
[01:13:09.520] perfectly as if somebody took um like a
[01:13:12.400] pair of of large wire cutters and just
[01:13:14.719] cut right through it because he said the
[01:13:16.640] cut was pretty perpendicular to the
[01:13:18.640] length of the cable to the direction of
[01:13:20.560] the cable and uh it was clean. It wasn't
[01:13:24.640] it wasn't chewed on or um wrestled with
[01:13:29.360] or anything like that. The camera
[01:13:31.600] clearly now the camera that was watching
[01:13:33.760] that telephone pole we rewound that.
[01:13:37.440] This is what I was garbling up earlier.
[01:13:40.080] So, we reround that VHS tape to the day
[01:13:45.120] and time that the that the other one
[01:13:48.640] went dead and there was nothing going
[01:13:51.520] on. We could see we could see that that
[01:13:54.480] telephone pole that has that camera
[01:13:56.080] mounted on it at that time and day and
[01:13:59.760] nothing's happening. There's no cattle
[01:14:01.440] there. There isn't a person wandering
[01:14:03.600] around out there cutting. You don't see
[01:14:05.440] anybody cutting the cable. So, it just
[01:14:08.080] >> Yeah. You don't even see the cable cut
[01:14:09.760] either. You You're looking at it really
[01:14:11.280] hard and it's like this is not blurry or
[01:14:13.199] fuzzy. This is sharp uh sharply focused
[01:14:16.080] and you don't you can't even tell that
[01:14:17.760] the cable has been cut and the cable is
[01:14:19.920] not cut at height level person's height
[01:14:22.560] level cut a little bit further up. Mhm.
[01:14:25.440] >> So, uh, so the other camera that's
[01:14:28.400] looking at the telephone poles with, so
[01:14:31.440] the one camera looking at the other
[01:14:33.199] telephone poles with the other cameras
[01:14:34.880] mounted on it does not see anything or
[01:14:37.679] anybody cutting that cable.
[01:14:40.239] >> So that's what the other VHS tape showed
[01:14:43.679] us at that time and date. And so this
[01:14:46.880] was really weird.
[01:14:48.400] >> Yeah, that is weird. So, one camera
[01:14:49.920] dies,
[01:14:50.880] >> Terry sees it,
[01:14:52.800] >> but we got the tapes and we round
[01:14:55.360] rewound it back to look at that date and
[01:14:58.640] time uh when that camera died and the
[01:15:02.480] other camera that's looking at it sees
[01:15:04.080] absolutely nothing happening.
[01:15:05.520] >> Wild. Wild.
[01:15:06.320] >> Well, that was broad daylight.
[01:15:08.239] >> Then there's another time. This one's me
[01:15:10.159] because this is the one I remember uh
[01:15:12.880] discovering. So, um, I'm doing my usual
[01:15:16.960] afternoon going through the tapes. I got
[01:15:20.000] one tape and this camera, we've got two
[01:15:22.000] cameras that are looking at the near
[01:15:24.000] pasture close to the house. So, one
[01:15:26.159] camera is looking one way and the other
[01:15:27.679] kind of camera is actually looking at a
[01:15:29.520] slightly different angle, but you can
[01:15:30.880] still see parts of the same pasture. So,
[01:15:34.000] this is deep in the night. Uh, I know
[01:15:36.239] it's well past midnight. Um, so it's
[01:15:39.440] well past midnight. I don't remember the
[01:15:41.040] exact time. All of a sudden, this big
[01:15:44.000] bright light saturating orb appears from
[01:15:49.760] out of the camera's comes into the
[01:15:51.679] camera's field of view and it's hovering
[01:15:55.040] low above the ground because it is so
[01:15:57.600] bright that the light emanating from its
[01:16:00.239] bottom hits the blades of grass on the
[01:16:03.040] on the pasture below it. You can see all
[01:16:05.120] the individual blades of grass. Wow.
[01:16:07.040] >> On the ground. You're not seeing uh
[01:16:09.440] you're not seeing darkness. You're not
[01:16:11.280] seeing maybe some faximile of what could
[01:16:14.480] you think is grass. You're actually
[01:16:16.480] seeing the blades of grass well lit up
[01:16:19.440] by the light coming from the bottom of
[01:16:21.120] this orb. This orb is so damn bright
[01:16:23.360] that it's oversaturating the uh solid
[01:16:25.760] state uh detector on the camera, the
[01:16:28.327] [clears throat] CCD camera. And so
[01:16:29.920] you're getting like a star pattern. So
[01:16:31.520] you see the round orb and you'll see
[01:16:33.760] saturation in the horizontal and
[01:16:35.360] vertical direction. Is is there footage
[01:16:36.800] of this that's that people can people
[01:16:39.120] see this footage anywhere?
[01:16:40.960] >> Uh, no. Bigalow's got all that locked up
[01:16:43.920] in his storage where
[01:16:45.360] >> Why? Why?
[01:16:46.560] >> So, uh, so we're seeing this from the
[01:16:49.199] first camera that I saw. It's coming
[01:16:51.360] toward the camera. So, this thing is
[01:16:53.600] coming toward the camera, steady, even
[01:16:56.480] pace. It's not changing altitude. It's
[01:16:58.880] it's maintaining an an approximately
[01:17:01.679] constant altitude because I'm always
[01:17:03.360] seeing the blades of grass being lit up
[01:17:06.320] under its track of motion. So, you see
[01:17:09.280] what I'm saying? Yeah. So, whichever
[01:17:10.800] parts of the grass it's it's shining on
[01:17:14.400] is the grass that's lit up, but the
[01:17:16.239] grass behind it or in front of it's not
[01:17:17.920] lit up. It's just whatever is beneath
[01:17:20.560] that orb is being lit up. And you could
[01:17:23.199] see the blades of grass. So, it's coming
[01:17:25.040] at you. Then it makes a perfect 90° turn
[01:17:27.920] to the right from my from my vantage
[01:17:29.920] point watching it on the monitor. So
[01:17:32.239] it's coming straight toward the camera,
[01:17:34.480] makes a smooth, flawless 90° turn
[01:17:37.600] without slowing down, stopping, and
[01:17:39.920] speeding up again. It's just a flawless
[01:17:42.320] constant speed where it changes
[01:17:44.640] direction by 90° and it goes off the
[01:17:47.840] monitor to the right.
[01:17:49.040] >> Mhm.
[01:17:49.520] >> The other camera that saw it saw it come
[01:17:52.080] across a part of its view and the same
[01:17:54.480] thing. we see this big ball um of light.
[01:17:58.159] It's super bright and uh you could see
[01:18:00.719] all the blades of grass beneath it, but
[01:18:02.640] it's coming uh from that camera's
[01:18:05.120] vantage point from its angle of view
[01:18:07.120] with respect to the first one. It's
[01:18:08.960] coming across a different it's a
[01:18:10.640] different field of view.
[01:18:12.239] >> Uh and I don't remember which way it was
[01:18:14.400] pointing, but it was pointing at a
[01:18:16.719] different angle. So, it did catch that
[01:18:19.840] orb, but the orb was just moving across
[01:18:22.880] the monitor's field of view, or the
[01:18:25.040] monitor as you would see it, across the
[01:18:26.560] camera's field of view, and it was gone.
[01:18:28.400] >> Wow.
[01:18:29.120] >> That was spectacular. It's the first
[01:18:30.880] time NIDS caught anything like that uh
[01:18:34.320] on tape.
[01:18:36.080] >> Yeah.
[01:18:36.480] >> And recorded it. And so, uh, we've had
[01:18:39.360] episodes like where we've seen, um,
[01:18:42.480] large amber colored, well, it looked
[01:18:45.600] like an orb, but I could see there was
[01:18:47.360] structure in it fly over the mesa, come
[01:18:50.320] out over the ranch. Colum and I are out
[01:18:52.480] there like at 3:00 in the morning on a
[01:18:54.560] cold uh, late November night, and it's
[01:18:57.520] like, wow, we're really cold out here,
[01:18:59.120] and we just can't get to bed. So, we're
[01:19:00.719] going to we just got in like maybe an
[01:19:03.199] hour or so before that from the night
[01:19:04.880] watch. And so we go back out, take
[01:19:06.880] another look, and here comes this big
[01:19:09.040] ass thing flying steadily at low
[01:19:11.120] altitude. Now the the um the mesa is 100
[01:19:14.960] ft tall. I ascertain that this thing
[01:19:17.440] would have been no more than 500 ft up
[01:19:20.560] above this ground level. So about five
[01:19:23.040] times the height of the mesa. So it
[01:19:25.440] comes straight out and it's coming from
[01:19:27.679] the north.
[01:19:30.640] Let's see. Yes, it's coming from the
[01:19:32.719] north and it's heading south. And then
[01:19:34.880] it gets over the pasture and it's not
[01:19:37.679] quite above us, but it's close and it
[01:19:40.080] makes a perfect just like that orb on
[01:19:41.920] camera. Uh, this was actually November
[01:19:44.000] of 96, so this is long before we put the
[01:19:45.920] surveillance cameras in. So, nobody got
[01:19:47.760] this on on p on film, video, photograph,
[01:19:51.679] or anything. Um, and to tell you the
[01:19:54.239] truth, I don't think we had our cameras
[01:19:55.840] then.
[01:19:56.800] >> Okay. Uh, so anyway, it comes out and
[01:20:00.239] instead of slowing down to make a
[01:20:01.920] perfect 90° turn, it makes a perfect 90
[01:20:04.320] degree turn without slowing down.
[01:20:05.920] Flawless.
[01:20:06.800] >> Wow.
[01:20:07.360] >> And now it's heading uh east and it goes
[01:20:10.960] over the house and we lose sight of it.
[01:20:13.199] And neither of us had the presence of
[01:20:15.440] mind to run around the house to to
[01:20:17.760] follow where it's going. Mhm.
[01:20:19.280] >> Two stupid PhDs who didn't [laughter]
[01:20:22.080] who didn't get off that porch and go
[01:20:24.239] around the front and go look for it and
[01:20:26.080] see where it goes to. And I don't know
[01:20:28.060] [clears throat] why we didn't do it. I
[01:20:29.120] think maybe we were just so stunned
[01:20:30.719] looking at it, but I could see a
[01:20:32.320] structure inside of it. So I don't I I
[01:20:34.640] don't categorize that one as an orb. Um
[01:20:38.640] uh now our first day on the ranch um we
[01:20:43.199] we stayed overnight with Bob and um that
[01:20:47.600] evening we're all there including Terry
[01:20:49.520] Sherman and that's when I saw we're all
[01:20:52.960] kind of looking out the windows and
[01:20:54.320] they're bullshitting and whatever. I
[01:20:56.560] finally see through the kitchen window
[01:20:59.040] that another one of those, this is the
[01:21:01.440] first time I saw the first amber
[01:21:04.800] uh orb like object come down, descend
[01:21:08.560] perfectly vertically down from the west
[01:21:11.440] uh uh up high on the west sky cuz I'm
[01:21:14.080] looking west and it goes vertically down
[01:21:17.280] and it goes behind a grove of trees. And
[01:21:20.000] so that was my first clue. It was not a
[01:21:21.600] star or a planet setting.
[01:21:22.960] >> Yeah.
[01:21:23.360] >> Okay. And it's not even on the ecliptic
[01:21:25.520] anyway, but it's not setting uh because
[01:21:28.080] there is a mountain range behind it as I
[01:21:30.159] already knew. And it it landed and I
[01:21:33.199] could see the grove of trees and their
[01:21:34.880] branches blocking the light as it
[01:21:36.719] finally came down. And it it stayed on
[01:21:40.159] when I think it hit the ground and it
[01:21:42.480] went out. The light just went out and
[01:21:45.040] I'm think I told everybody and they went
[01:21:46.800] out looking for it and they said, "Well,
[01:21:48.159] where did it go?" And I pointed to which
[01:21:50.159] direction I saw it. the light go out and
[01:21:52.560] I said that's where it landed and um and
[01:21:55.440] they said oh wow. So they're talking
[01:21:57.520] about it. Nobody had the presence of
[01:21:59.120] mind to get in a truck or or the
[01:22:00.800] vehicles and drive out there and look
[01:22:02.320] for it. So we didn't that was our first
[01:22:04.639] trip out there in early September. So we
[01:22:06.400] did not have our instrumentation uh then
[01:22:08.560] at that time. Okay. So I'm not going to
[01:22:12.960] take my eyes off of that. I want to see
[01:22:14.880] if something else happens. Sure enough,
[01:22:17.040] uh I'm watching my my watch and 30
[01:22:20.239] minutes later, exactly 30 minutes later,
[01:22:22.239] that light came back on only it had
[01:22:24.880] displaced itself by what might have been
[01:22:28.639] a good chunk of uh probably a fraction
[01:22:32.239] of a football field to the left of the
[01:22:34.239] position where I saw it land and wink
[01:22:36.239] out. Well, that's where I saw it wink
[01:22:39.040] on. It It came on. I could see the
[01:22:42.159] foliage in front of it, but it's bright
[01:22:44.560] enough that the light gets through it
[01:22:46.400] and then it uh stayed there and I
[01:22:49.040] watched the watch. I told everybody
[01:22:50.560] about it. They saw it and then it went
[01:22:53.280] out like 5 minutes later and it just
[01:22:55.520] vanished.
[01:22:56.159] >> Wow.
[01:22:56.639] >> So, the next day we go out there and
[01:22:58.639] we're looking around uh after we wake up
[01:23:00.880] in the morning and have breakfast and
[01:23:02.239] all that stuff and we don't find a sign
[01:23:03.920] of anything out there.
[01:23:05.120] >> We're way out there. We're were there's
[01:23:07.440] uh a million of these flying bugs. They
[01:23:10.320] are not mosquitoes. A million. They want
[01:23:12.480] to get in your eyes. They want to go up
[01:23:14.000] in your nose. And if you open your
[01:23:15.360] mouth, bad news. They get in your So, we
[01:23:17.840] put these um uh pith helmet nets over
[01:23:20.960] our faces cuz Bob Bigalow bought those
[01:23:23.440] at Terry Sherman's recommendation so we
[01:23:25.600] could cover our our heads and not be
[01:23:28.239] bothered by those damn bugs. And I don't
[01:23:29.920] know what kind of insects those were,
[01:23:31.600] but they were pretty aggressive. They
[01:23:33.760] didn't sting or bite. Um they just
[01:23:35.920] wanted to get up into every orifice they
[01:23:37.760] can find their way into.
[01:23:39.323] >> [laughter]
[01:23:40.000] >> Uh,
[01:23:40.639] >> that was life on that ranch, by the way.
[01:23:42.800] >> Yeah, it sounds on that part of the
[01:23:44.560] ranch, too, near that crevice where the
[01:23:46.320] creek ran through.
[01:23:47.040] >> I I imagine it's probably one of those
[01:23:48.800] things where it's just, you know, rural,
[01:23:52.400] mundane, and then every now and then
[01:23:54.320] something super insane happens that like
[01:23:56.560] wakes you back up. And so, you you spent
[01:23:59.040] so much time out there. You had all
[01:24:00.560] these experiences of orbs, of lights.
[01:24:02.639] You had this psychic weird psychical
[01:24:04.480] experience. Um, any weird crypted
[01:24:06.960] experiences? cuz that's
[01:24:08.400] >> No, actually not. Uh well, maybe sort
[01:24:10.400] of. Okay, so I had the corner room and
[01:24:13.760] if today
[01:24:15.440] >> a lot of that pasture has been modified.
[01:24:17.679] Um Brandon Fugal got rid of the barb
[01:24:20.719] wire fence
[01:24:22.159] >> that kept the cattle penned in that
[01:24:24.400] pasture away from the back porch of that
[01:24:26.320] house. That's the house that Bigalow
[01:24:28.080] installed. It's a manufactured double
[01:24:29.679] white and he had that giant observation
[01:24:32.560] deck put on the back. So, you go out
[01:24:34.800] through the mudroom where the laundry
[01:24:36.960] room is, and the back door takes you
[01:24:39.199] onto that deck, that porch, and uh then
[01:24:42.560] there'd be the barb wire fence on the
[01:24:44.239] other side of it. So, Brandon removed
[01:24:46.480] all that, put in a helellipad, and uh
[01:24:49.360] cleared out all the grass. So, it's all
[01:24:51.040] mostly dirt, concrete, and a sidewalk.
[01:24:54.080] And okay, so when you're looking at it
[01:24:55.760] from the vantage point of the helipad
[01:24:57.760] and somebody has a video of it from uh
[01:25:00.320] the Secret of Skinwalker Ranch show or
[01:25:02.320] photograph, you'll see a window on the
[01:25:05.280] far right side of the house uh just to
[01:25:07.679] the right of the end of the deck. That's
[01:25:09.280] my old bedroom.
[01:25:10.159] >> Okay.
[01:25:10.560] >> Okay. So, I'm sleeping in that corner
[01:25:12.320] bedroom for uh I think it was uh a
[01:25:16.560] number of nights. might have been a
[01:25:19.760] number of nights one week I was there
[01:25:21.840] and a number of nights a another week I
[01:25:24.800] was there. We'd be there between one and
[01:25:26.880] two weeks every month. So it'd be
[01:25:28.560] another month I'd be there and the same
[01:25:30.480] damn thing happened uh roughly two hours
[01:25:34.239] before dawn. M I'm smelling this
[01:25:36.880] horrifically strong odor and it's waking
[01:25:40.000] me up and it brings back recall of my
[01:25:43.120] childhood at my grandparents house, my
[01:25:45.679] paternal grandparents house in Prescuit,
[01:25:47.360] Arizona in the mountain club off of
[01:25:49.280] Copper Basin Road in Prescat. And
[01:25:51.679] they're up amongst the the the
[01:25:54.480] uh the boulders and um the granite
[01:25:57.280] boulders and dirt roads and hills and
[01:26:00.639] and they're in a 19
[01:26:02.080] >> What kind of odor is this?
[01:26:03.280] >> Well, this is what I'm getting to. Okay.
[01:26:04.880] >> So, I've got the bedroom upstairs.
[01:26:07.600] They've got the master suite. And then
[01:26:09.840] all of this is above the boulders, that
[01:26:11.679] part of the house,
[01:26:12.960] >> and there's um uh and so um I'm in that
[01:26:16.320] corner room. And that bottom part of the
[01:26:19.679] house over the boulders is all curtained
[01:26:21.920] off and that's where the previous owners
[01:26:24.320] and my grandparents were storing stuff
[01:26:26.560] in. So, it became a storage facility.
[01:26:29.360] Um, the swamp cooler and gas heater are
[01:26:32.320] in there. And apparently the skunks, the
[01:26:35.280] female skunks like to go back into the
[01:26:37.360] corner where the heater is or and the AC
[01:26:40.880] is or the uh swamp cooler is. And that's
[01:26:43.199] where they would hide to give birth to
[01:26:45.520] their babies.
[01:26:46.320] >> Okay.
[01:26:46.800] >> Okay. So, we got dogs running loose in
[01:26:49.199] the neighborhood and the dogs would
[01:26:50.639] scare the skunks so they would spray.
[01:26:52.960] And so
[01:26:54.960] just just before sunrise, I'm I'm in
[01:26:58.320] inundated with this headacheinducing
[01:27:01.520] odor of skunk spray and it comes up from
[01:27:04.480] underneath the house into my room and
[01:27:06.400] it's like, "Oh god, it's terrible."
[01:27:09.120] Well, that's the same effect is at the
[01:27:11.679] ranch, only it was not skunk. I've
[01:27:13.920] smelled skunk so much so many times. I I
[01:27:16.639] lived in Arizona for the first uh 37 38
[01:27:19.600] years of my life. So, uh, and I was
[01:27:22.000] really in Las Vegas, um, before, uh, at
[01:27:25.360] age 35, but just before my 36th
[01:27:27.600] birthday. So, I was living in Las Vegas
[01:27:31.280] then, but, I was still a citizen with
[01:27:32.960] the driver's license of Tucson until my
[01:27:35.600] family uh, relocated and we bought a
[01:27:37.920] home in Vegas and very early 98.
[01:27:40.639] >> Yeah.
[01:27:41.040] >> Okay. So, roughly 37 years in Arizona.
[01:27:44.000] I've been everywhere. I know. I've
[01:27:46.480] driven over dead skunks and I know what
[01:27:48.560] the damn things smell like, including
[01:27:50.239] when they're alive and on the side of
[01:27:51.760] the road and they're scared and they'll
[01:27:52.880] spray and you'll smell it. Okay, this
[01:27:55.840] odor at the ranch was not skunk. It was
[01:27:59.520] something completely different. I would
[01:28:01.199] describe it as a strong musky odor. I
[01:28:03.760] told that to Colin and Colin has been
[01:28:06.159] reading up all the literature on this on
[01:28:08.080] cryptids and things like that. Uh, and
[01:28:10.639] Bigfoot and he suggested that that could
[01:28:13.840] have been a possible crypted or Bigfoot
[01:28:17.840] that was out there. So, um, when
[01:28:20.320] daylight came, I was up ready to get out
[01:28:22.400] of that house and go around to the
[01:28:24.480] outside my bedroom from the back porch
[01:28:27.280] and I was looking for footprints. I was
[01:28:29.120] looking for anything. That odor was not
[01:28:31.520] there. When you have a skunk spray, that
[01:28:33.840] odor will be there. Lingers
[01:28:35.679] >> hours, even a day later.
[01:28:37.600] >> Yeah.
[01:28:38.000] >> No odor. Uhuh. So, I'm out there just
[01:28:40.880] probably,
[01:28:42.080] >> you know, I go back to bed. I I'm now
[01:28:44.480] waking up. I I I'm awake and and it's
[01:28:47.120] like I I it takes time for me to go back
[01:28:49.520] to sleep and I just don't want to get
[01:28:50.800] up. So, I stay in bed and then sunlight
[01:28:53.280] is out and it's past sunrise and I get
[01:28:56.400] dressed and go out there and look. No,
[01:28:58.320] no footprints. Uh, I just see the cat's
[01:29:00.320] paw prints, the dog's paw prints. Um,
[01:29:03.120] and no odor. No odors emanating from
[01:29:06.159] anything.
[01:29:06.960] >> Weird.
[01:29:07.520] >> Yeah, very weird. So, Colin thinks we
[01:29:10.080] got visited and he was there at the
[01:29:11.840] time. Um, and so was George and that.
[01:29:13.920] So,
[01:29:14.960] >> uh, he thinks we got visited and
[01:29:17.360] whatever it was came around my room and
[01:29:20.719] >> I didn't have any interactions. I was
[01:29:22.320] sound asleep, but like I said, this is
[01:29:25.040] probably an hour or two before sunrise
[01:29:26.960] and boom. Yeah, I bet I bet you never
[01:29:29.760] thought of among the the strange
[01:29:31.840] encounters you'd have, you'd have one
[01:29:33.280] with a phantom disgusting ghost smell. I
[01:29:36.560] never I never would have thought that.
[01:29:38.320] So we we
[01:29:39.120] >> the column had the room next to me and
[01:29:41.120] he didn't smell it.
[01:29:42.080] >> Yeah.
[01:29:43.520] >> Every time I reported it that in the
[01:29:45.440] morning of when it happened, he said,
[01:29:48.239] "God, I didn't smell a thing. I slept
[01:29:50.320] perfectly through the night. Nothing
[01:29:51.520] woke me up." That's what he says. George
[01:29:53.760] was on the fire room and uh he also
[01:29:56.080] reported not smelling anything.
[01:29:57.840] >> Very strange. So, we have an hour tops
[01:30:01.520] left and we haven't gotten into any
[01:30:03.760] legacy program, any crash retrieval type
[01:30:06.560] stuff. Okay. But but closing the the
[01:30:08.400] chapter on Skinwalker, having spent so
[01:30:11.280] much time there, having talked to
[01:30:13.120] everybody who also spent so much time
[01:30:14.800] there and hearing about all these
[01:30:16.159] stories and compiling all this data,
[01:30:18.480] what is your best guess at what's going
[01:30:20.480] on there?
[01:30:21.920] Well, it's a precognitive sentient
[01:30:24.320] phenomenon. And we say it's precognitive
[01:30:28.320] because it knows what we're going to do
[01:30:30.080] before we do it. Because it always, with
[01:30:33.040] the exception of the orb that I caught
[01:30:35.360] on two separate surveillance cameras in
[01:30:38.159] the dead of the night. Um, uh, and
[01:30:41.520] except for our eyes that saw phenomena.
[01:30:44.480] Um there was another one that happened
[01:30:47.199] with columns Terry Sherman and I uh that
[01:30:50.080] I hadn't described yet. So that um it's
[01:30:53.920] a variety. It's not consistent. It's not
[01:30:56.000] always a UFO craft.
[01:30:58.080] >> We don't see grays. We don't see
[01:31:00.159] Nordics. We don't see um NHI that
[01:31:03.440] resemble insects or resemble lizard uh
[01:31:05.840] reptiles or whatever. We don't see any
[01:31:07.440] of that.
[01:31:08.239] >> We're seeing orbs. We're seeing a giant
[01:31:10.480] orb up in the sky at high altitude with
[01:31:13.280] well like I said it was probably 500
[01:31:15.280] feet is what I should say and I could
[01:31:17.679] see a structure inside but I couldn't
[01:31:19.199] make out a shape of it. there was a
[01:31:21.280] structure and that could be what's
[01:31:22.960] emitting that light. But at the uh on
[01:31:25.280] the first night of the ranch, what the
[01:31:27.360] orb I saw come down, uh you can't tell
[01:31:30.880] from our distance that there was any
[01:31:32.400] structure in it. And it was hard to make
[01:31:34.080] out a size given that distance. I would
[01:31:37.040] given the distance I know we were from
[01:31:39.120] that where it was. I was having to guess
[01:31:41.440] where it landed because it had like a
[01:31:44.719] half a football field of distance, maybe
[01:31:46.639] less of where it could have landed in
[01:31:48.960] the west direction. So, could have
[01:31:50.800] landed right behind a grove of trees, or
[01:31:52.560] it could have landed out in the middle
[01:31:54.080] of a uh an empty pasture between the
[01:31:56.400] trees and and the next door neighbor's
[01:31:58.159] ranch, or could happened all the way at
[01:32:00.000] the barb wire at the next next door
[01:32:01.600] neighbor's ranch.
[01:32:02.880] >> So, I don't know. I I'm guessing that
[01:32:05.199] orb probably was close to the size of
[01:32:08.800] the orb I saw. In order for for it to be
[01:32:11.360] big enough for it for me to see it at a
[01:32:13.360] half a mile
[01:32:14.400] >> and for it to be bright enough and large
[01:32:16.400] enough for me to see it at a half a
[01:32:17.760] mile. It's not a pin prick light, not a
[01:32:19.760] pinpoint light. It's an extended light
[01:32:21.760] and a spherical.
[01:32:22.880] >> Yeah.
[01:32:23.520] >> Okay. So, we had all these experiences
[01:32:25.920] and and they're different um the
[01:32:29.280] phenomenon I think was exhibiting
[01:32:31.440] different sides of itself based on
[01:32:34.960] whatever agenda it had
[01:32:38.000] >> and we never could figure it out. I
[01:32:39.679] mean, it's it's hard not to use words
[01:32:41.679] like haunting or words like, you know, I
[01:32:44.800] I don't I don't even know what
[01:32:45.920] terminology, but but some kind of, like
[01:32:48.560] you said, sentient intelligence that is
[01:32:50.880] definitely not fully physical that's
[01:32:54.080] residing on that land and is manifesting
[01:32:56.320] in all different kinds of ways on that
[01:32:58.560] land. And I mean it makes you think of
[01:33:00.000] um you know uh Keel's sort of like
[01:33:03.040] notion of there being these window areas
[01:33:05.040] or areas where the veil is thinner
[01:33:07.120] between whatever realm we're in and
[01:33:09.920] whatever the realm that thing inhabits
[01:33:12.080] or Yeah. I mean who knows? But it's it's
[01:33:14.480] definitely I mean the amount of
[01:33:17.280] compelling stories and the amount of
[01:33:18.880] people who corroborate those stories
[01:33:20.400] that come out of that place are
[01:33:22.159] certainly compelling. So, so
[01:33:24.320] >> well let me tell you in the modern ranch
[01:33:26.960] um that you know Brandon Fugo owns it
[01:33:30.639] and he's spending the kind of money Bob
[01:33:32.400] Biglo did not want to spend okay on
[01:33:34.639] scientific instrumentation and doing
[01:33:37.360] pretty uh daring experimentation like
[01:33:39.920] shooting rockets up in the air.
[01:33:41.760] >> Yeah.
[01:33:42.239] >> Launching balloons up in the air with
[01:33:44.480] cameras and sensor systems and tracking
[01:33:46.800] systems. Uh drilling in the mesa. Uh
[01:33:50.400] drilling in the ground. I mean, Bigalow
[01:33:53.520] um had Terry rent a giant bulldozer so
[01:33:56.239] we could carve giant chunks of ground
[01:33:58.560] out of the far pasture. Uh we we we um
[01:34:02.800] Terry dug trenches. Actually, these are
[01:34:05.199] deep trenches and because the tractor is
[01:34:07.120] going to, you know, this is a
[01:34:08.159] bulldozer's on tracks. It's going to go
[01:34:10.560] down a slope and it's going to go very
[01:34:13.040] deep. So, it's going when you get to the
[01:34:14.400] bottom of it's going to have very high
[01:34:16.080] walls. You're down there and it's also
[01:34:18.719] wide because it's going to be as wide as
[01:34:20.080] a shovel. But I I understood that Terry
[01:34:22.560] didn't go with the width of the shovel.
[01:34:24.320] He went in and made two or three shovels
[01:34:26.800] with u cuts into it. So he made I don't
[01:34:29.760] remember how many he made. He made
[01:34:31.040] several of these in the in that far
[01:34:32.880] pasture. You could walk down in it. When
[01:34:35.120] we walked down into it, nothing
[01:34:36.639] happened. Nothing happened to us either
[01:34:38.719] consciously or psychically. Um uh
[01:34:41.840] nothing happened with the
[01:34:42.800] instrumentation. No, no unusual
[01:34:44.560] readings. Um no phenomenon occurred as a
[01:34:48.159] result of that. That's what Bob was
[01:34:49.679] attempting to do by by digging those
[01:34:51.840] trenches out was to um poke the
[01:34:55.360] phenomenon to get it to come out
[01:34:57.280] >> and act up and show itself.
[01:34:59.679] >> Didn't work.
[01:35:00.719] >> Um so
[01:35:02.719] >> now we have Brandon Fugal spending
[01:35:06.480] millions on these very expensive uh uh
[01:35:09.040] outside experts and consultants. Uh
[01:35:11.840] these are businesses that work in the
[01:35:13.760] petroleum industry in Nevada uh in Utah,
[01:35:16.320] sorry. So they're up there drilling and
[01:35:18.320] pumping and all that and they have all
[01:35:19.760] this really, you know, if you're going
[01:35:22.400] to rent that type of equipment that
[01:35:23.920] drills into the messa or drills down,
[01:35:26.560] they have alres and things like that.
[01:35:28.880] Um, water pumps, water systems, uh,
[01:35:31.920] everything that he's taken out there,
[01:35:33.280] he's paying these guys, uh, probably a
[01:35:36.639] couple thousand dollar an hour to be
[01:35:38.320] there for the labor and equipment, maybe
[01:35:40.239] more.
[01:35:40.719] >> Yeah.
[01:35:41.040] >> So this is stuff Bob wouldn't do.
[01:35:42.880] >> Sure.
[01:35:43.760] [clears throat]
[01:35:44.639] So, he's done that and guess what we
[01:35:46.960] find out? We've got the uh tri what was
[01:35:49.440] that the triangle? Is that what they
[01:35:51.199] call it? The
[01:35:52.159] >> I don't know.
[01:35:52.880] >> Okay. Well, it's it's the place where
[01:35:55.199] there are three directions of road that
[01:35:56.960] come together there of the over by the
[01:35:59.120] mesa. Yeah. Um
[01:36:00.800] >> so there's the triangle, then they find
[01:36:02.719] that there seems to be some sort of an
[01:36:04.400] energy bubble
[01:36:05.920] >> um going up to roughly a mile above the
[01:36:08.480] ground level. and things go haywire when
[01:36:12.639] you come into contact with that bubble
[01:36:14.800] with any uh experimental sensor system.
[01:36:17.920] So, um they have troubles out there.
[01:36:20.880] They have anomalies. They have unusual
[01:36:24.239] things that don't make sense and they're
[01:36:26.719] trying to sort this out. But it's become
[01:36:28.639] clear that they've discovered some sort
[01:36:30.400] of a bubble uh over that particular spot
[01:36:33.600] on the ranch where there's energy being
[01:36:36.320] exhibited. And that energy seems to mess
[01:36:39.920] with the sensor systems on board
[01:36:42.719] balloons and rockets and whatnot.
[01:36:46.239] >> So it has a domain of sorts, it seems.
[01:36:48.400] >> Yeah. So you see, if I had the money
[01:36:50.560] that they've had, I would have
[01:36:52.239] discovered that, too. And I I had the
[01:36:54.960] science advisory board to advise me. I
[01:36:57.679] had two fellows of Los Alamos National
[01:37:00.960] Lab. Were both PhD physicists on the
[01:37:03.199] board. That was John Dale Soomn and
[01:37:05.520] Marty Pilt. And um uh they were on the
[01:37:08.880] board. They were my source of
[01:37:10.639] technological information for doing some
[01:37:12.880] advanced physics experiments out there.
[01:37:15.360] And Bob would say, "Well, go ahead. Can
[01:37:17.679] you pitch me a proposal?" And I'll say,
[01:37:19.119] "Okay, let me let me work with Marty and
[01:37:21.199] and design something." And I did. And I
[01:37:24.080] took it to Bob and I said, "Hey, it's
[01:37:25.600] going to cost 28,000." Shut it down.
[01:37:28.000] >> Yeah. Bummer. Bummer.
[01:37:29.280] >> Hey, Bob. Um Colum and I got a free
[01:37:31.760] 30-day trial use of a infrared thermal
[01:37:34.800] imager. Um no uh it we'll take infrared
[01:37:38.639] off. It's a thermal imager. That doesn't
[01:37:40.719] mean infrared is not involved, but
[01:37:42.159] thermal imager is heat from the body and
[01:37:43.840] heat is transported by infrared
[01:37:45.440] radiation anyway. So
[01:37:46.960] >> So yeah, so it's the type of thermal
[01:37:49.440] imager fire departments use. This was a
[01:37:51.360] new generation of them that were being
[01:37:53.360] advertised because they're handheld.
[01:37:55.360] They have either the uh the various uh
[01:37:58.560] visual pallets you can choose from full
[01:38:00.880] color black and white or black and red
[01:38:03.679] that kind of thing to see cool versus
[01:38:05.440] hot and it records all the data on a
[01:38:08.320] flash drive.
[01:38:09.840] >> The first year that flash drives came
[01:38:11.600] out.
[01:38:11.920] >> Yeah.
[01:38:12.239] >> So I don't you know you know what a
[01:38:13.920] flash drive is. Yeah.
[01:38:14.960] >> Okay. So it's lightweight so it's not
[01:38:17.679] going to be weighty and it was only
[01:38:19.360] 12,500. That was the smallest model. The
[01:38:22.000] bigger model was not would weigh a
[01:38:24.080] little bit more. wouldn't been a burden
[01:38:26.159] to hold it.
[01:38:27.840] >> Now, um
[01:38:29.520] >> let's let's switch gears cuz because we
[01:38:31.520] we have limited time and I and I do want
[01:38:33.440] to spend because this is a big chapter
[01:38:35.199] of your story and a big chapter that
[01:38:37.520] obviously the audience is so interested
[01:38:39.360] in, which is I mean there's so many ways
[01:38:41.679] to go into this as well, but I think we
[01:38:43.280] could just start it out with returning
[01:38:45.600] to those yes no questions that I asked
[01:38:47.440] you in the beginning. You know, I asked
[01:38:49.280] was there a reverse engineering program?
[01:38:51.280] Was there a legacy program? are we in
[01:38:53.520] contact with um extraterrestrial
[01:38:55.920] non-human intelligence and you said yes
[01:38:57.520] yes yes yes to all of those things. So
[01:38:59.600] maybe the maybe the real question of
[01:39:02.320] interest for everyone is I do want to
[01:39:04.480] hear the background of how that all
[01:39:06.560] started for you and your experience but
[01:39:09.119] yeah what what convinced you to get you
[01:39:10.800] to a yes on those questions.
[01:39:13.040] >> Oh this is a long story but I can
[01:39:14.800] shorten it. I can shorten it. Uh I
[01:39:17.360] interviewed a retired president. I
[01:39:20.560] interviewed a retired uh colonel in the
[01:39:24.239] Air Force who was a DIA chief of staff
[01:39:27.199] for a major human human intelligence is
[01:39:30.560] human
[01:39:31.600] >> um management office at the DIA.
[01:39:34.560] >> I interviewed uh
[01:39:37.520] uh a
[01:39:39.600] legacy aerospace corporation that no
[01:39:41.679] longer exists because it got absorbed by
[01:39:43.360] another one after the turn of the
[01:39:45.199] millennium.
[01:39:46.560] um the uh executive administrative
[01:39:49.679] assistant of the of the crash retrieval
[01:39:51.760] program that this company was contracted
[01:39:54.560] to run
[01:39:56.320] at an Air Force facility.
[01:39:57.840] >> Mhm.
[01:39:58.400] >> And this individual was in charge of the
[01:40:00.639] of the security and the skip. In other
[01:40:02.960] words, her boss hires the field security
[01:40:05.360] officers and she manages them. She
[01:40:07.440] oversees them on his behalf, her boss's
[01:40:09.920] behalf. A man a man.
[01:40:11.840] >> And uh so she's in charge of security,
[01:40:14.000] in charge of the skiff. She oversees
[01:40:16.400] those guys. She has access to the skip
[01:40:19.199] and she has access to uh the six or so
[01:40:23.840] um
[01:40:25.440] intact UFO craft that her program
[01:40:30.400] received from the recovery team.
[01:40:32.880] >> Wow.
[01:40:33.280] >> The recoveries were not conis. They were
[01:40:37.760] foreign recoveries. So these were craft
[01:40:40.560] that were recovered overseas.
[01:40:43.679] They had intact craft. They actually
[01:40:46.000] access the engineers and scientists
[01:40:47.679] working on that program at this company
[01:40:50.320] were frustrated as hell because they
[01:40:52.159] couldn't figure out how the control
[01:40:54.480] systems work. They couldn't get anything
[01:40:56.480] to activate until one scientist did some
[01:40:59.119] combination of things in outright
[01:41:01.119] frustration and a craft turned on and it
[01:41:03.760] levitated and it emitted a earpiercing
[01:41:06.960] whining noise
[01:41:09.119] >> and they couldn't turn it off. This
[01:41:11.760] individual never did explain whether
[01:41:14.560] they did or were a, you know, whether
[01:41:16.000] they were able to or not able to ever
[01:41:17.840] turn that thing off and get it to settle
[01:41:19.360] back on the ground or on the floor of
[01:41:21.360] the of the warehouse that it was um uh
[01:41:24.400] secured in and whether that noise was
[01:41:26.639] shut off. Never got that story.
[01:41:29.040] >> But um so that was one.
[01:41:31.360] >> So is this going is this all going on
[01:41:33.040] during the OSAP years?
[01:41:34.639] >> No, this is all during the Cold War.
[01:41:36.880] >> Okay. Okay.
[01:41:37.440] >> Okay. So this gal gal I blew it. Well,
[01:41:41.040] you said this other place. You said this
[01:41:42.639] other place.
[01:41:43.840] >> Um, uh, was working for that company
[01:41:49.360] from 19 19 actually this individual was
[01:41:52.880] working for that company from 69 until
[01:41:55.360] they quit in '84. But they had started
[01:41:58.800] in California at the company's location
[01:42:01.600] there. went to um felt belvoir on a
[01:42:06.480] change in position that required that
[01:42:08.960] they move to Fort Belvoire, Virginia.
[01:42:11.600] And then the last move that individual
[01:42:13.600] made was to uh Wright Patterson Air
[01:42:15.760] Force Base in um Dayton, Ohio. Um and so
[01:42:19.440] that individual was there from roughly
[01:42:21.679] 74 to 84. 70 uh yeah 77 to 84, something
[01:42:26.159] in that ballpark. uh I think it was 77
[01:42:28.639] to 84 for so for seven years that
[01:42:30.800] individual worked on the crash retrieval
[01:42:32.719] program. Then during the OAP um before
[01:42:37.360] OAP got started uh Halutoff and I are
[01:42:41.119] already working on a collaborative
[01:42:44.320] experimental proposal study. a study to
[01:42:48.239] propose a series of experiments to
[01:42:50.560] explore the nature and characteristics
[01:42:54.080] of the quantum quantum vacuum structure
[01:42:56.560] >> which includes an experiment to
[01:42:59.199] determine the property of inertia by way
[01:43:01.440] of whether inertia is explained by
[01:43:03.360] quantum vacuum fluctuation. In other
[01:43:05.199] words, inertia being mass. Um uh and
[01:43:08.400] then the rest of it was can we extract
[01:43:10.960] energy from the quantum vacuum without
[01:43:13.199] violating uh uh energy conservation and
[01:43:18.159] uh so we had a series of experiments.
[01:43:20.239] The guy who was supporting that or
[01:43:22.320] sponsoring it was the senior VP and
[01:43:25.119] director. Now he's the senior VP of this
[01:43:28.560] company's um
[01:43:32.560] >> pre merger or or post merger.
[01:43:34.400] >> Hang on. It's complicated. I have to
[01:43:36.000] >> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, this company is a
[01:43:37.760] conglomerate, but it's got individual
[01:43:39.280] company.
[01:43:39.920] >> Yeah.
[01:43:40.239] >> And I don't want to say the name of it.
[01:43:41.679] Everybody already knows what it is, but
[01:43:42.960] I don't want to get into trouble by name
[01:43:44.560] anyway.
[01:43:45.360] >> So, they got this company there, this
[01:43:47.679] company there, but they all begin with
[01:43:49.119] the same two names, first names of that
[01:43:51.280] company. Yeah.
[01:43:52.000] >> Such and such space and missile systems,
[01:43:54.320] such and such um
[01:43:57.280] >> helicopters or whatever. Okay. So, so
[01:44:00.159] he's the senior VP of the company in
[01:44:02.560] California, but his dual hat job is he's
[01:44:05.679] the director of their advanced
[01:44:06.800] technology center. So, he's sponsoring
[01:44:08.960] this collaboration that involved how put
[01:44:11.600] off and later how hire. Now, this
[01:44:13.520] started in 2004 before I got hired in
[01:44:15.679] November of 2004. So then as soon as I
[01:44:18.800] uh stepped foot in Austin and started
[01:44:20.320] working for Hal at Earth Tech, uh Hal
[01:44:22.560] brought me into it because this is one
[01:44:24.639] of my areas of interest that I've had
[01:44:26.400] since graduate school, which he already
[01:44:28.239] knew when I submitted my CV
[01:44:30.960] >> for that job ad by NIDS, remember?
[01:44:34.320] >> Okay. So,
[01:44:36.400] >> uh and then I have to do a lot of work
[01:44:38.080] with quantum vacuum, zero point energy,
[01:44:40.639] quantum vacuum fluctuations energy,
[01:44:42.320] whichever uh word you would like to use
[01:44:44.560] to describe it. uh because you can
[01:44:47.520] engineer that in the lab to a certain
[01:44:50.159] degree and that type of energy can be
[01:44:53.199] manipulated to produce the type of
[01:44:55.520] vacuum energy that you need to create
[01:44:57.360] wormholes and warp drives.
[01:44:58.719] >> Wow.
[01:44:59.040] >> To go faster than light without
[01:45:01.199] violating Einstein's special theory of
[01:45:02.880] relativity and this is from within
[01:45:04.719] Einstein's general theory of relativity
[01:45:06.639] and this particular type of quantum
[01:45:09.040] vacuum energy uh comes out of quantum
[01:45:11.119] field theory. It's all predicted out of
[01:45:12.400] quantum field theory to begin with. So
[01:45:14.159] anyway, uh so so the senior VP and
[01:45:19.040] director of the who's the director of
[01:45:21.280] the advanced technology center at this
[01:45:22.880] company was overseeing our project and
[01:45:26.159] um uh and his goal is for us to undergo
[01:45:31.119] so we've already we've already written
[01:45:33.520] our proposed experiments up
[01:45:36.080] >> in great detail and he wants an internal
[01:45:38.960] independent review panel within the
[01:45:40.719] company to evaluate our proposals. And
[01:45:43.360] this isn't one proposal. It's a proposal
[01:45:46.480] of of consisting of a list of separate
[01:45:48.400] proposals to do separate experiments to
[01:45:51.040] explore separate parts or or take
[01:45:53.199] different approaches to explore the
[01:45:54.800] quantum vacuum as far as extracting
[01:45:56.800] energy. Uh net over unity energy uh um
[01:46:00.639] or we don't want to say over unity
[01:46:02.560] because we don't know that that's the
[01:46:03.840] case, but we'll say net useful energy
[01:46:06.400] that can be converted uh accounting for
[01:46:09.280] >> losses, systematic losses and things
[01:46:11.280] like that.
[01:46:11.920] >> Okay. as well as look exploring the
[01:46:14.560] foundation of inertia or the origin of
[01:46:16.400] inertia I should say uh at the quantum
[01:46:18.560] physics level. So uh he's doing that and
[01:46:22.639] uh we evolved over the next few years
[01:46:25.280] and it came to a close because the game
[01:46:27.679] plan was to get DARPA uh there was a
[01:46:30.239] DARPA program manager who was overseeing
[01:46:32.239] a prop portfolio of research that we
[01:46:35.040] fell into.
[01:46:36.159] >> Mhm. So he became our portfolio manager
[01:46:39.199] and the idea was then once the company's
[01:46:43.040] independent review board cleared our
[01:46:45.280] proposals which they did
[01:46:47.199] >> then the senior VP wanted to send it out
[01:46:50.239] to independent peer reviewers outside of
[01:46:53.040] the company
[01:46:53.840] >> who are well known in the United States
[01:46:56.400] for their theoretical and experimental
[01:46:58.800] research on quantum vacuum fluctuations
[01:47:01.040] and zero point energy. And so it and
[01:47:03.920] they published peer-reviewed papers in
[01:47:05.440] the elite journals. So they so that
[01:47:07.600] happened. So these were three
[01:47:09.280] individuals uh who published books and
[01:47:11.679] technical papers. They reviewed our
[01:47:13.600] proposals and they gave it the green
[01:47:15.199] light. They said great. So now that we
[01:47:17.199] got the green light from internal
[01:47:18.800] company review panel and external
[01:47:20.880] independent reviewers of who were
[01:47:22.719] experts in the field,
[01:47:24.080] >> we take it to the DARPA program manager
[01:47:26.000] and he's out. He's out because he was
[01:47:28.159] involved in some shenanigans involving a
[01:47:30.560] professor at Texas A&M University who
[01:47:34.080] thought that the Hafneium isotope could
[01:47:37.600] explode uh and produce nuclear energy in
[01:47:40.719] ways that were beyond uranium and
[01:47:42.480] plutonium and he thought it would
[01:47:44.400] superior to uranium and plutonium bombs
[01:47:47.199] and power generating sources and it
[01:47:49.600] turned out his physics was really off.
[01:47:51.600] >> Okay. So he [laughter] just went the
[01:47:52.719] wrong direction.
[01:47:53.360] >> Yeah, he went in the wrong direction. So
[01:47:54.960] the DARPER program manager was sinking
[01:47:57.280] funds into that. There was
[01:47:58.480] experimentation going on and and the
[01:48:00.400] experiments did not realize the
[01:48:02.960] professor's uh claims at all.
[01:48:05.040] >> So let me just step back summarize this.
[01:48:06.960] >> So that politically killed our
[01:48:09.360] >> I see
[01:48:10.480] >> our our pro project cuz with the DARPA
[01:48:13.520] program manager gone, nobody else
[01:48:15.280] stepped into his role to fill us role in
[01:48:17.600] when he left and take take up our
[01:48:19.920] project. They just walked away from all
[01:48:21.360] of it. Okay.
[01:48:22.000] >> So we couldn't pursue it. Well, from
[01:48:24.239] that connection with that senior VP,
[01:48:26.639] years, a couple more years go by. Well,
[01:48:28.639] let's see. A lot more years go by. So,
[01:48:31.040] no, a few more years go by and then it's
[01:48:33.840] made known to us that that by the senior
[01:48:36.880] VP's senior project engineer who was our
[01:48:40.880] coordinator for our project. He revealed
[01:48:44.320] to Hal put off that that senior VP
[01:48:47.600] worked on the crash retrieval program
[01:48:50.639] >> when he was a junior employee in the
[01:48:53.040] company right after he got hired.
[01:48:54.560] >> Very interesting. So So can I can I ask
[01:48:57.360] a hypothetical question about this
[01:48:58.880] hypothetical person? Um are you are you
[01:49:01.520] aware of his like esoteric interests?
[01:49:05.199] >> He had esoteric interest. Yeah.
[01:49:06.560] >> Do do you think so? This is something
[01:49:08.000] I've wondered about him specifically
[01:49:09.679] because this person who shall not be
[01:49:12.080] >> this guy's got a PhD in materials
[01:49:14.239] engineering, material science.
[01:49:16.159] >> So he he he starts his career at a a
[01:49:21.280] super secret division of the company
[01:49:23.760] that has to do with all of our spy
[01:49:25.520] planes.
[01:49:26.480] >> And um uh and so you have to have
[01:49:29.199] materials engineers because you're
[01:49:30.480] dealing with aircraft that are flying at
[01:49:32.480] ultra high altitudes. They may be flying
[01:49:34.400] at ultra high speeds with super high
[01:49:36.400] atmospheric friction on them. So,
[01:49:38.080] they're going to heat up. So, you got to
[01:49:39.600] have a metal or some sort of an alloy or
[01:49:42.480] or whatnot that can [clears throat] hold
[01:49:44.400] that aircraft together in those
[01:49:46.400] conditions. And they're they're moving
[01:49:48.560] at high mock speed, too, right? So
[01:49:50.719] there's all kinds of stress put on the
[01:49:53.360] airframe and you need a materials guy
[01:49:55.360] who can come up with the type of
[01:49:56.560] materials um and develop them, test them
[01:49:59.520] and prove them and then field it by
[01:50:01.760] building an aircraft using that material
[01:50:03.760] to make sure it can handle its mission.
[01:50:06.080] >> So So here's here's my question. That's
[01:50:08.000] the thing. So this guy's a material
[01:50:09.520] scientist. Yeah. So, how does a material
[01:50:11.679] scientist who's into very nuts andbolts,
[01:50:14.560] straightforward science get so into this
[01:50:17.440] esoteric stuff that he because because
[01:50:19.760] hypothetically this person has talks out
[01:50:21.760] there where he's talking about all kinds
[01:50:24.400] of, you know, western esoteric ideas,
[01:50:27.040] you know, ideas of like there there
[01:50:29.440] being like an athetheric realm,
[01:50:30.880] athetheric beings, there being higher
[01:50:32.960] intelligences that we're in contact
[01:50:35.280] with. And and though he seems
[01:50:37.199] open-minded to those things being
[01:50:39.119] thought of as like alien, he's
[01:50:40.880] definitely talking about them in a more
[01:50:42.239] esoteric context.
[01:50:44.239] >> Well, he used to read Madame Bowski's
[01:50:46.000] book for one hour every day in the
[01:50:48.400] morning before work started. He'd go to
[01:50:50.800] work an hour early. And so he'd get to
[01:50:53.119] work an hour early, shut his door, and
[01:50:55.840] read Madablovsk's book for that hour and
[01:50:59.840] then put it away when work started. You
[01:51:02.159] know, 8 8 a.m. rolls along and now he's
[01:51:04.400] going to work. So, do you think this
[01:51:06.159] interest had anything to do with what he
[01:51:09.040] encountered in these classified
[01:51:10.719] settings, or do you think he was
[01:51:12.239] interested in this stuff to begin with,
[01:51:14.000] and it was just
[01:51:15.360] >> No, my uh he and I spent a great deal of
[01:51:17.600] time together. I've been at his house
[01:51:18.800] three times. We had lunch together. We
[01:51:21.119] also had dinner together with one of his
[01:51:22.800] former crash retrieval co-workers.
[01:51:24.719] >> Wow. And um uh
[01:51:28.239] and so the gist of what he told me is is
[01:51:32.639] that his exposure
[01:51:34.719] to this phenomenon, by the way, he his
[01:51:37.280] wife and his daughters are experiencers.
[01:51:39.520] So that's the [clears throat] other part
[01:51:40.400] of this and not a lot of people are
[01:51:42.159] aware of it. They were in the LA area
[01:51:46.080] and they're now on the uh coastal
[01:51:48.639] highway going back up to San Jose where
[01:51:51.199] they live. So, it's middle of the night,
[01:51:55.119] dark, clear sky, beautiful stars in the
[01:51:57.520] sky, and all of a sudden, he sees
[01:51:59.440] something big and black in the sky with
[01:52:02.159] an unusual light pattern on two sides of
[01:52:04.880] it because it's moving in such a way
[01:52:06.880] that he could see both sides of it. Uh,
[01:52:09.280] one in one one set of motions, he sees
[01:52:12.639] one side, then it turns around, and then
[01:52:14.239] he could see the other side. What it was
[01:52:16.159] doing is is it it caught his eye. He
[01:52:19.199] asked his wife in the She's in the front
[01:52:21.520] passenger seat and the girls are in the
[01:52:23.040] back sleeping and he asked his wife, "Do
[01:52:25.920] you see that?" She saw it right off the
[01:52:28.000] bat because whatever this thing was, it
[01:52:29.920] was dark. It was blocking the stars
[01:52:33.199] wherever it was moving. You the stars
[01:52:34.960] would disappear behind it. And they saw
[01:52:37.199] this unusual pattern of lights on the
[01:52:39.760] side of it that they saw. And then um he
[01:52:42.960] pulls off the road, they pull off the
[01:52:44.480] highway, get someplace where they can
[01:52:45.920] park safely. He and his wife get out.
[01:52:47.920] The girls are awake because the car
[01:52:49.360] stops. They get out. They're all looking
[01:52:51.280] at it and they saw it move in a figure
[01:52:54.480] eight pattern. A giant figure eight
[01:52:56.560] pattern. Not a little one, not a tight
[01:52:58.080] little one. It's like doing a figure
[01:52:59.760] eight pattern almost. Not quite horizon
[01:53:02.080] to horizon, but close enough. And it's
[01:53:03.920] doing a wide figure eight. And when they
[01:53:06.719] see it on one side, they see a double
[01:53:09.440] cross. So, in other words, like a little
[01:53:10.960] cross inside of an outer cross. And it's
[01:53:13.760] not a solid, it's dashed lines. And so
[01:53:17.199] the dash lines in the vertical direction
[01:53:19.599] of the cross are moving inward and then
[01:53:22.080] the dash line uh lines of light on the
[01:53:25.199] horizontal part of the cross are moving
[01:53:26.960] outward. Then it would re then it would
[01:53:29.040] reverse. So the they would on the
[01:53:31.280] horizontal part they would go from the
[01:53:32.800] out outward edges of the c of the
[01:53:34.880] horizontal parts of the cross and move
[01:53:36.719] inward toward the center and then the
[01:53:38.480] vertical ones would move inward toward
[01:53:40.159] the center vertically.
[01:53:41.119] >> Okay.
[01:53:41.520] >> Okay. And then it was and then when they
[01:53:43.520] saw it come around on the other part of
[01:53:45.280] the figure eight where they see the
[01:53:46.560] other side of it, they saw the same
[01:53:48.560] pattern on that double cross uh
[01:53:51.440] arrangement. They were segmented double
[01:53:53.520] crosses, one inside the other. And this
[01:53:56.080] craft reminded him of the Navy's tic
[01:53:59.280] tac, but one side of it was more
[01:54:03.679] narrowed down than the other side was.
[01:54:06.880] But it did not come to a point. It just
[01:54:08.719] and he said it was not a smooth conicle.
[01:54:11.119] It was like a um I don't know what the
[01:54:14.320] geometrical term would be, but it was
[01:54:16.400] more um it it it it was like this. Uh
[01:54:21.360] well, it's like that.
[01:54:22.560] >> Okay.
[01:54:23.040] >> Curved. So, the nose came down away from
[01:54:26.159] the main body in a curve fashion. Not a
[01:54:28.719] straight
[01:54:29.280] >> a curved object. No wings.
[01:54:31.440] >> No, just it had Okay. First of all,
[01:54:33.649] [clears throat] they were able to make
[01:54:34.639] it out um because it was close. He
[01:54:37.679] estimated probably not much higher than
[01:54:40.400] a couple thousand feet or between 1,000
[01:54:43.119] thousand feet up and it was rather
[01:54:45.280] large. So he's estimating
[01:54:48.320] a good he estimated a good 50 50 to 100
[01:54:52.480] feet in side in length.
[01:54:54.239] >> So the nose is curving inward
[01:54:57.679] from the top and bottom. He's only
[01:54:59.520] seeing it from the profile view but he's
[01:55:01.199] assuming that it's that a conicle but a
[01:55:03.840] curve conic. So, it's curving away
[01:55:06.320] toward uh uh the point where it's not a
[01:55:09.760] point, but it kind of curves around at
[01:55:12.239] the tip. At the tip. So, it's curving
[01:55:14.000] toward a tip and it's rounded at the
[01:55:16.080] tip. He could see that. And he could see
[01:55:18.239] the weird cross light patterns on each
[01:55:20.800] side. And it's moving at a pretty good
[01:55:22.800] clip uh in the figure 8. And it's
[01:55:26.080] staying at the same altitude. He doesn't
[01:55:28.080] even notice it ascending or descending
[01:55:31.360] or uh pitching or banking. It's just
[01:55:34.560] staying a perfect thing. No external
[01:55:36.960] control surfaces, no uh jet engines. He
[01:55:40.639] doesn't see anything that looks like an
[01:55:42.159] intake, air intake or an exhaust. And
[01:55:44.719] definitely no rocket engines. There was
[01:55:46.400] It wasn't glowing anywhere in the body
[01:55:48.320] that would lead you to believe that
[01:55:50.000] those would be a propulsion exhaust. So
[01:55:52.880] that's what he saw. So that was what he
[01:55:55.040] declared to be a UFO craft. wife saw it,
[01:55:58.239] the girls saw it, and and amazingly when
[01:56:01.360] uh one of the girls grew up and she went
[01:56:04.639] to college, she got her degrees in
[01:56:06.880] optical engineering and she went to work
[01:56:08.480] for his company.
[01:56:09.760] >> Interesting.
[01:56:10.080] >> For his employer.
[01:56:10.880] >> Wow.
[01:56:11.599] >> So, she The other one is a artist uh
[01:56:14.000] working on her own little
[01:56:16.639] >> farm slash I think it's a farm. Um and
[01:56:19.920] she sees orbs and photographs orbs a
[01:56:22.159] lot.
[01:56:22.480] >> Wow. Wow. So, so he not only has these
[01:56:25.520] interests but he's also an experiencer.
[01:56:27.679] >> He's also that four of them are
[01:56:29.119] experiencers and um uh he
[01:56:34.480] explained that what he learned from the
[01:56:36.719] phenomenon through the wave acknowledged
[01:56:38.639] special access program briefings
[01:56:42.320] that he was given access to
[01:56:45.599] um
[01:56:47.520] and what he read in the literature. He
[01:56:49.679] read Jacqu Feliz books, Alan Heinik's
[01:56:51.440] books. He read uh oh I didn't mention
[01:56:54.400] earlier Peter Sturock's book back in
[01:56:56.560] what uh
[01:56:57.520] >> Peter Stur published his book in
[01:56:59.679] >> the early 2000s late 90s or something.
[01:57:01.760] Well, Peter Sturock was an
[01:57:02.880] astrophysicist at um at Stanford in at
[01:57:06.080] Stanford University. Okay. And he knew
[01:57:08.080] how put off very well. He knew how when
[01:57:10.320] they how was running the remote viewing
[01:57:11.920] program. I think he even knew how and
[01:57:13.920] how was in the electrical engineering
[01:57:15.440] department working on his PhD in laser
[01:57:17.360] physics in the laser uh the electronics
[01:57:20.400] and quantum optics of lasers and that's
[01:57:22.800] what he earned his doctorate in and uh
[01:57:24.960] Hal and Stur knew each other. They're
[01:57:26.719] the ones that co-founded the uh societ
[01:57:30.080] society for scientific exploration which
[01:57:32.560] had his academic journal that was
[01:57:34.159] published by Stanford University Press
[01:57:36.320] the journal of scientific exploration
[01:57:38.639] >> and that's moved on because he died then
[01:57:40.960] it went to Bernie Heist who was at
[01:57:43.040] Loheed Martin and Bernie uh I don't
[01:57:46.400] remember where that was published when
[01:57:47.920] he when he took over as as the editor
[01:57:50.960] and then uh it it's moved on it's
[01:57:52.960] changed hands a couple of times since
[01:57:54.400] then but anyway so Jim read the journal
[01:57:56.880] of scientific exploration articles. He's
[01:57:58.960] investigated the really good books. He
[01:58:01.199] read Matt Bllovaskki. Um uh I know he's
[01:58:04.800] I talked to him a lot. He's very well
[01:58:06.400] aware of remote viewing and he had a lot
[01:58:08.320] of exposure to how put off during our
[01:58:10.159] official OSAP collaborations with him
[01:58:13.520] and um on the crash retrieval topic and
[01:58:16.560] um so I think this only came about when
[01:58:22.320] he got more and more exposed to the
[01:58:24.639] crash retrieval program. So when he
[01:58:27.199] started it was a matter of we were given
[01:58:29.119] pieces of recovered craft and I said why
[01:58:32.159] didn't you see a recovered craft or
[01:58:33.840] maybe a whole uh wall or if not a cra a
[01:58:37.840] a ship a wall or maybe a big control
[01:58:40.080] panel he said no the three-letter agency
[01:58:42.800] that parsed out this stuff to the
[01:58:44.960] companies to to study and attempt to
[01:58:47.280] reverse engineer uh did uh for the most
[01:58:50.239] part uh would give them pieces of it.
[01:58:53.679] there would be some
[01:58:55.920] flat structures or some smaller
[01:58:58.320] structures, but they had pieces and
[01:58:59.840] structures. And I'm not talking pieces
[01:59:01.760] like broken shards. He he didn't
[01:59:03.520] describe shards or chunks. Yeah. He just
[01:59:06.159] said pieces of equipment.
[01:59:07.840] >> That's what he's referring to. Pieces of
[01:59:09.280] equipment.
[01:59:10.159] >> And he said the reason why they did that
[01:59:12.159] is they did is that they is that they
[01:59:14.719] the owner did not want the contractor's
[01:59:17.920] personnel to be able to realize what
[01:59:21.920] this was they were studying. and what it
[01:59:24.320] what its implications was.
[01:59:26.560] >> Um they didn't want the engineers to
[01:59:30.320] understand that this was a recovered UFO
[01:59:32.560] craft.
[01:59:33.040] >> So so
[01:59:34.800] these just like high level
[01:59:36.639] >> so this was to develop plausible
[01:59:37.920] deniability of what the origin of this
[01:59:39.920] material is but he was briefed on he and
[01:59:43.199] his boss were briefed on exact actually
[01:59:45.920] were two. So they were briefed on what
[01:59:49.119] the origin of the material was, but they
[01:59:51.040] were not to tell their engineers what
[01:59:53.920] that information. They were not cleared
[01:59:55.760] for that level of information. All they
[01:59:58.400] were told is here's some really exotic
[02:00:00.080] stuff.
[02:00:00.800] >> It's unusual. We want you to study it
[02:00:02.719] and tell us what you can learn about it.
[02:00:04.400] Can we reproduce it? Can we understand
[02:00:06.639] it at a physics level? Can we uh
[02:00:09.440] duplicate the fabrication technology
[02:00:11.440] that can make it?
[02:00:12.480] >> Right.
[02:00:12.880] >> Okay. And and does it have any
[02:00:14.400] properties we could exploit for
[02:00:16.239] commercial or military technology
[02:00:18.320] development?
[02:00:19.840] >> That was the whole that was the whole
[02:00:20.880] mandate.
[02:00:21.440] >> These companies have, you know, you can
[02:00:23.360] find online these like these big defense
[02:00:25.520] contractor companies have these like
[02:00:27.679] foreign material exploitation divisions,
[02:00:30.880] right?
[02:00:31.119] >> Yeah. Foreign material acquisition.
[02:00:32.800] >> Yeah. So, so they would, you know, give,
[02:00:35.199] hey, what do you think? This is
[02:00:36.639] something.
[02:00:38.480] What do you think of it? And, you know,
[02:00:39.920] they wouldn't they wouldn't get the
[02:00:41.040] explanation. And they would just get
[02:00:42.080] chunks of weird things and be told,
[02:00:44.719] "What can you do with this? What can you
[02:00:45.760] figure out?"
[02:00:46.080] >> Leadership would be told what it is
[02:00:47.760] because they've got to channel it
[02:00:48.960] through their wave uncknowledge special
[02:00:50.639] access program teams
[02:00:52.639] >> or they have to stand up a team. And so
[02:00:55.119] when you stand up a team, that's highly
[02:00:57.119] stopiped. So nobody else in the company
[02:00:59.520] knows about it. Certainly not any of the
[02:01:01.920] other SAP SCI or waved uncknowledged
[02:01:04.719] special access program guys. I'll call
[02:01:06.639] that woo sap. WAP.
[02:01:09.440] >> None of those guys are going to know
[02:01:10.560] about just the one they stand up for
[02:01:12.639] this assignment.
[02:01:14.239] >> So the leadership knows what it is,
[02:01:16.320] where it's from, and why it's been given
[02:01:19.520] to them for under a contract. But the
[02:01:22.080] engineers that are given eligibility for
[02:01:25.280] access and need to know to work on it,
[02:01:27.679] they're not to know. They're just
[02:01:29.760] they're not to have their the re there's
[02:01:32.080] another reason.
[02:01:33.440] >> Sorry. It's to keep their minds from
[02:01:35.840] being frontloaded in advance that this
[02:01:38.080] is alien exotic alien technology
[02:01:40.239] off-world from some maybe a planet or
[02:01:43.199] parallel dimension on another planet
[02:01:45.760] whatever they they don't the the
[02:01:48.159] purposes the leadership of the company
[02:01:50.000] doesn't want their engineers minds
[02:01:53.360] wandering into um uh
[02:01:56.639] >> non-technical territory. Well, dead
[02:01:59.360] ends,
[02:01:59.840] >> okay,
[02:02:00.320] >> and alleys that lead to dead ends and
[02:02:02.480] nothing positive or beneficial or
[02:02:05.280] productive, I should say productive
[02:02:06.719] comes out of it for the amount of money
[02:02:08.480] they're getting paid on the contract.
[02:02:10.159] >> They got to do producibles. Even if it's
[02:02:11.840] a negative result, at least they can
[02:02:13.280] say, you know,
[02:02:14.719] >> the idea is not to frontload their minds
[02:02:17.599] so that when they're looking at this
[02:02:18.960] stuff on their lab bench, they're not
[02:02:20.960] automatically leaping or making big
[02:02:23.440] leaps into logic of junk pseudocience.
[02:02:26.560] you know, they've got to avoid the
[02:02:28.000] pseudocience. You've got to do this at
[02:02:29.599] the scientific level using the physics
[02:02:32.320] and the engineering and the science as a
[02:02:34.639] whole and manufacturing engineering uh
[02:02:37.280] that they are aware of now. And you
[02:02:39.760] don't want them to go on Oh, here's a
[02:02:42.159] better word. They're they're not being
[02:02:44.320] frontloaded by the leadership to keep
[02:02:46.000] them from going on wild goose chases
[02:02:47.920] trying to figure out an explanation.
[02:02:49.760] That's not the right approach to go.
[02:02:51.679] They got to go to a methodical uh
[02:02:54.320] scientific method approach that leads
[02:02:56.800] them to some conclusion whether positive
[02:02:58.719] or negative or combination of both. But
[02:03:01.760] if you frontload them with pseudocience
[02:03:04.560] ideas or well if you frontload them with
[02:03:06.719] this they'll be they'll be compelled or
[02:03:09.679] motivated to jump into those
[02:03:11.040] pseudocience avenues. They're going to
[02:03:12.880] be looking at Paul Violet's BS
[02:03:15.520] anti-gravity stuff. Rose Sigma I know
[02:03:18.480] Rose Sigma's name. He's a German guy. um
[02:03:21.119] he had a book on the ether and
[02:03:23.360] anti-gravity and uh they don't want
[02:03:25.679] those guys going there. They want the
[02:03:27.280] guys to focus on the atoms,
[02:03:29.360] >> you know, the molecules,
[02:03:30.960] >> the alloys, the composition, the
[02:03:33.360] fabrication,
[02:03:35.119] um the materials
[02:03:38.480] property characterization,
[02:03:40.560] >> what is this stuff and what does it do
[02:03:42.960] or what can we do with it?
[02:03:44.480] >> Do do you think so? So you've publicly
[02:03:46.400] said before that it seems like the
[02:03:48.239] conclusion that was reached is that we
[02:03:50.000] have not made a lot of progress in
[02:03:51.920] reverse engineering this stuff and
[02:03:54.400] really figuring out senior VP told me um
[02:03:59.040] he died in 2018 and that was still the
[02:04:01.599] story cuz he um he had his replacement
[02:04:04.239] and his replacement he kept in contact
[02:04:06.159] with and so he would talk privately with
[02:04:09.119] his replacement about well how how's the
[02:04:11.040] team doing on it because they would shut
[02:04:12.960] this down for about 10year increments
[02:04:14.719] because of progress and the customer the
[02:04:17.040] government customer didn't want to keep
[02:04:18.480] it funded per in perpetuity.
[02:04:21.360] >> So they said just bring it out of you
[02:04:23.440] know cold storage every 10 years and
[02:04:26.480] start a new fresh team uh of people uh
[02:04:30.960] or you already have a new fresh team of
[02:04:32.880] people already hired and the other guys
[02:04:34.560] have cycled out and moved on by that
[02:04:36.719] time. So put them on. Oh, and and the um
[02:04:40.080] and the uh and the physics and the
[02:04:42.400] engineering might have advanced quite a
[02:04:44.080] long ways in over 10 years. So, start
[02:04:46.880] fresh with new people and new new
[02:04:48.960] physics and new engineering that has
[02:04:50.480] come along after the 10 years of
[02:04:52.159] hibernation.
[02:04:53.280] >> Okay. So, so, so there's rumors though
[02:04:55.119] about like, you know, it's one thing to
[02:04:57.280] be like, yes, we've reverse engineered
[02:04:58.719] an entire UFO and we know how to make an
[02:05:01.440] ARV now, but there's also like have we
[02:05:04.400] made other ancillary technological leaps
[02:05:07.119] based off of like found materials, you
[02:05:09.760] know, like like leaps in information
[02:05:12.080] technology or material science or or
[02:05:14.400] stuff like that.
[02:05:15.440] >> No, he didn't give us that. He that
[02:05:17.679] basically required a clearance and
[02:05:19.840] we only had TSSCI.
[02:05:22.400] What? Let me ask you in a different way.
[02:05:24.880] >> He couldn't answer that question.
[02:05:26.080] >> But what do you personally think? Do
[02:05:27.760] like if you had to guess, do you think
[02:05:29.679] any of the technology that we now use on
[02:05:32.000] a daily basis may have an
[02:05:33.840] extraterrestrial or unknown origin?
[02:05:36.080] >> Absolutely not.
[02:05:36.880] >> Okay.
[02:05:37.920] >> So, um I do know that Jim Macsky told
[02:05:41.599] Jeremy Corbel and George Knapp in a
[02:05:43.679] video that was an oral history interview
[02:05:46.480] that they did with him what, two months
[02:05:47.920] ago now. Um, and he did mention
[02:05:52.000] something about a triangular craft. You
[02:05:55.760] remember that?
[02:05:56.800] >> Yeah, I think so. Yeah.
[02:05:58.000] >> Uh, I don't remember if he said the word
[02:05:59.520] anti-gravity, but he did say a
[02:06:01.040] triangular craft. And, uh, that I
[02:06:04.560] thought implicated a reverse engineering
[02:06:07.360] success
[02:06:08.800] >> or inferred one. That's the first I've
[02:06:11.520] ever heard of it. And I haven't got his
[02:06:13.040] last two volumes or his two books.
[02:06:14.880] >> Yeah, I haven't read them either.
[02:06:15.760] >> So, I haven't got those. So I have to
[02:06:17.760] get those to find out where he talks
[02:06:19.520] about the triangular craft.
[02:06:21.199] >> But he made it sound like we built it.
[02:06:24.719] >> It wasn't it wasn't a conventional jet
[02:06:27.360] engine or rocket engine or a van super
[02:06:30.079] advanced jet engine rocket engine. I
[02:06:31.920] think he was alluding to
[02:06:33.840] >> this was derived from alien technology.
[02:06:36.320] And up until the time
[02:06:38.560] >> okay let's edit that part out. So, so up
[02:06:41.760] until the time that senior VP died in
[02:06:45.280] 2018,
[02:06:47.040] um I was always told they have not made
[02:06:50.159] advances.
[02:06:51.679] The only thing they understood was the
[02:06:55.040] fabrication approach that was taken to
[02:06:58.000] assemble the materials that created
[02:07:00.357] [clears throat]
[02:07:00.960] uh the various pieces and parts of this
[02:07:03.040] craft that they were given access to to
[02:07:05.119] study or studied. and um uh they
[02:07:08.320] understood that this material was built
[02:07:10.480] from the atomic level up. And I asked
[02:07:13.280] him, "Well, so you mean they're
[02:07:14.400] manipulating atom by atom?" And he said,
[02:07:15.920] "Absolutely. They figured out using all
[02:07:18.159] of their advanced tools at their company
[02:07:20.719] that uh the materials they were looking
[02:07:23.040] at were constructed atom by atom." And I
[02:07:25.840] said, "So, have you reproduced that
[02:07:28.159] fabrication technique?" He said, "No."
[02:07:30.400] And by by
[02:07:32.800] early 2018 when I last spoke to him,
[02:07:35.199] that was still the answer. as you said,
[02:07:36.960] I hadn't made any more advances,
[02:07:38.800] >> but yet Jim Lowsky. But see, uh I don't
[02:07:42.560] believe for a minute that the senior VP
[02:07:45.199] knew Lic.
[02:07:46.800] >> We made him aware of Licy
[02:07:49.040] >> because we were under contract to him
[02:07:51.199] for the OAP.
[02:07:52.159] >> And give a little background on on on
[02:07:53.599] Jim Lowsky because he's another, you
[02:07:55.679] know, he's
[02:07:56.159] >> he's got a doctorate of engineering and
[02:07:58.320] he uh my recollection is he was a
[02:08:00.800] missiles engineer, I believe.
[02:08:02.480] >> Yeah.
[02:08:02.880] >> That was his expertise.
[02:08:04.639] >> Yeah. Yeah. And he was a DIA
[02:08:07.920] >> defense intelligence agency. He was
[02:08:09.520] career
[02:08:10.239] >> and and he by his own admission
[02:08:12.400] apparently had some other contractor or
[02:08:15.920] was it intelligence agency had the craft
[02:08:18.159] that he allegedly breached the ho
[02:08:20.960] >> that was the other intelligence agency.
[02:08:22.560] >> Okay. Okay. So he eventually revealed in
[02:08:25.520] a weaponized interview that he
[02:08:27.599] apparently
[02:08:28.320] >> that they opened it up. They managed he
[02:08:30.239] was there when they managed to open it
[02:08:31.679] up and he was invited to go inside and
[02:08:34.880] look around and he described what he
[02:08:37.360] didn't describe what he saw but he
[02:08:38.800] described what was missing and uh what
[02:08:41.199] they didn't see I should say and um uh
[02:08:44.480] >> and what they didn't see was like any
[02:08:45.840] traditional kinds of controls right
[02:08:47.760] >> uh no it was they didn't
[02:08:50.639] were were not able to identify any
[02:08:54.159] uh meaningful power and propulsion
[02:08:57.920] system. Okay.
[02:08:59.280] >> But what this is is you're officially
[02:09:02.079] allowed to tell us that the United
[02:09:04.079] States government has in its possession
[02:09:05.599] a craft of unknown origin and you were
[02:09:07.840] able to access the inside. Is that
[02:09:10.639] correct?
[02:09:12.560] >> The wording that you you read is
[02:09:15.520] correct. Ah, you're going beyond the
[02:09:18.239] wording.
[02:09:18.960] >> No, I'm not. I'm not. I'm asking you did
[02:09:20.960] that happen
[02:09:22.800] >> and is it true?
[02:09:24.159] >> And it's true.
[02:09:25.599] >> Yes.
[02:09:25.920] >> Okay. You're you're telling us you told
[02:09:28.960] us because you were allowed to tell us
[02:09:31.119] that our government has a UFO in its
[02:09:33.119] possession and has been able to access
[02:09:34.960] the inside of it, right?
[02:09:37.599] >> Yes.
[02:09:38.320] >> And with the propulsion system, you have
[02:09:40.159] to have a power system and you have to
[02:09:41.440] have a power system to power the craft
[02:09:43.119] overall, not just the propulsion.
[02:09:45.119] >> So they could they couldn't identify any
[02:09:47.280] such thing inside.
[02:09:49.360] >> So that tells me that had WOAP
[02:09:52.239] clearance. And what's funky about that
[02:09:54.880] is that we worked with him from the
[02:09:56.960] inception of this starting in 2007. It
[02:10:00.719] got started in 2008. We got our
[02:10:02.960] clearances in early like January and
[02:10:05.679] through February 2009
[02:10:08.320] and uh actually December 2008 through
[02:10:11.840] February 2009 and all the way until the
[02:10:15.840] project closed down with the end of the
[02:10:17.920] DHS's uh bickering and and uh uh
[02:10:22.079] terrible deliberations over whether they
[02:10:24.159] were going to take the placeholder sap
[02:10:27.599] called Kona Blue which was just a
[02:10:30.560] temporary it was a uh PSAP uh
[02:10:34.239] provisional special access program
[02:10:36.400] that's a PSAP and turned it into a
[02:10:39.040] fullon full-fledged SAP. So we we've
[02:10:42.239] gone through all that with him and he
[02:10:43.920] didn't mention one single thing about
[02:10:47.920] getting access to the craft at the other
[02:10:50.320] threeletter agency. Uh getting to see it
[02:10:53.599] opened and going inside of it to look
[02:10:55.599] around never squeak a peep to us. But
[02:10:58.719] yet Hal Bigalow Keller and myself, we
[02:11:02.480] all had our different interactions with
[02:11:04.400] that senior VP of that big aerospace
[02:11:06.480] company and we reported that to Lassky.
[02:11:09.360] So Latsky knew what our encounters were
[02:11:13.040] that guy with that guy and what his
[02:11:14.480] information was about all this at the
[02:11:16.880] TSSCI level and then he knew during the
[02:11:20.639] following years long after where I kept
[02:11:22.719] contact with that senior VP after he
[02:11:25.199] retired even and would visit him once or
[02:11:27.840] twice every year. we'd have long drives
[02:11:31.040] um out into the countryside, actually
[02:11:32.800] out the California coast
[02:11:34.880] >> to avoid being surveiled because he told
[02:11:37.040] me that his company was well known for
[02:11:39.440] their security surveilling former
[02:11:41.280] employees to make sure they're not
[02:11:43.040] violating their SF312 and their
[02:11:45.280] company's NDA. And um uh and so he was
[02:11:49.280] worried about that. So that's why he
[02:11:50.800] said, "We won't talk in a restaurant
[02:11:52.400] when we have dinner or lunch or wherever
[02:11:54.400] we're going to do that to dine. We're
[02:11:57.040] gonna talk about this on the car where
[02:11:59.040] I've got a reasonable chance that
[02:12:00.800] reasonable assurance that we're not
[02:12:02.239] being surveiled.
[02:12:02.960] >> Wow.
[02:12:03.520] >> Okay. So,
[02:12:04.560] >> these days, good thing it wasn't a
[02:12:06.320] modern car.
[02:12:07.280] >> Yeah. So,
[02:12:09.040] >> um
[02:12:09.280] >> he didn't tell me that he knew Latsky or
[02:12:11.840] had communicated with Licassy, but he's
[02:12:14.320] a guy that worked on the crash retrieval
[02:12:16.719] materials from that same three-letter
[02:12:18.320] agency.
[02:12:19.199] >> Wow.
[02:12:19.599] >> During the Cold War.
[02:12:20.800] >> Interesting.
[02:12:21.920] >> For more than a decade.
[02:12:23.280] >> First of all, I'm very envious. I wish I
[02:12:25.360] could have spoken with him.
[02:12:26.239] >> Yeah, it's interesting that Licatsky
[02:12:29.199] knew everything we reported about.
[02:12:32.079] >> So during that period I said I said
[02:12:33.920] before and after he retired that
[02:12:36.000] information I generated gave to Hal.
[02:12:38.560] Howal was sent off to Latsky and um and
[02:12:41.520] probably Bigalow and Keller as well.
[02:12:43.599] Okay. So Latsky was always uh getting
[02:12:47.119] information on my one-on-one meetings
[02:12:48.960] with that senior VP.
[02:12:50.560] >> Yeah. and he didn't volunteer to give us
[02:12:54.719] feedback on it and saying, "Oh, well,
[02:12:56.639] I've got that strange
[02:12:57.760] >> good stuff." It it Okay, you know why?
[02:13:00.000] It's because the senior VP
[02:13:03.280] was skirting the borderline between
[02:13:05.760] TSSCI and TS Wooap.
[02:13:09.119] That's what he was doing. And with me
[02:13:10.639] privately, he just went over that line a
[02:13:12.480] little bit.
[02:13:12.880] >> So So basically, you guys had
[02:13:15.280] >> So hang on. So, privately in a car on
[02:13:18.320] the coastal highway, he would go over
[02:13:20.560] that edge a little bit and give me some
[02:13:22.159] more, dangle some more to me. Um, but um
[02:13:26.239] but Lickey's getting reports on that
[02:13:28.880] from us and he's not giving us feedback
[02:13:31.520] of I know all about that senior VP. I
[02:13:34.719] know what he was doing. It was either
[02:13:36.320] him I was interacting with or his uh
[02:13:39.199] replacement guy. No, no, you know what?
[02:13:41.280] I think Latsky, you know, I don't
[02:13:43.679] remember when Latsky said what period
[02:13:45.520] this was that he got inside of you.
[02:13:47.119] >> I I don't recall off the top of my head
[02:13:48.480] either. Yeah. But but to just
[02:13:49.920] >> It could have been either during the OAP
[02:13:51.599] after Oh, god. It could have been before
[02:13:53.040] the OAP for all we know.
[02:13:54.880] >> So, uh
[02:13:55.440] >> So, you guys had up to TSC.
[02:13:57.119] >> In fact, he's not giving feedback on
[02:13:58.719] that senior VP.
[02:14:00.320] >> Yeah.
[02:14:00.719] >> And saying, "Yep, I know all about it."
[02:14:03.440] >> So, you guys have up to TSSCI clearance,
[02:14:06.560] which is a very high level of clearance.
[02:14:08.159] But then you're saying that you're
[02:14:09.760] saying that this other person the senior
[02:14:12.000] VP had an even
[02:14:13.760] >> WOSAP level which is like waved
[02:14:16.000] unagnowledged special access program
[02:14:17.760] which is even higher more
[02:14:19.280] compartmentalized level.
[02:14:20.480] >> Yeah. It actually goes this way.
[02:14:21.760] >> So you guys had a very high level but
[02:14:23.679] not not in that specific area where
[02:14:26.560] where he had more knowledge than you.
[02:14:28.480] Yeah.
[02:14:29.520] >> It's just what you're need to know
[02:14:32.000] allows you to.
[02:14:32.800] >> Yes.
[02:14:33.119] >> So it could be need to know this part of
[02:14:34.560] it, need to know that part of it. There
[02:14:36.239] were several subcompartments you an
[02:14:38.400] indivi I think maybe the top level guy
[02:14:41.679] who over who has the portfolio over that
[02:14:44.159] crash retrieval program with the maybe a
[02:14:47.520] number of compartments and a bunch of
[02:14:49.040] sub compartments he'll know what's going
[02:14:50.880] on but everybody working with those
[02:14:53.119] within those won't know about the other
[02:14:55.280] sub compartments they're not allowed to
[02:14:56.880] they're stoiped
[02:14:57.760] >> I want to point out another really
[02:14:59.119] special area of interest for me and for
[02:15:01.599] a lot of people who watch the channel
[02:15:03.119] which is that this senior VP we already
[02:15:04.880] mentioned he has these esoteric
[02:15:06.800] interests, right? And these interests in
[02:15:08.320] consciousness and um sigh and you know,
[02:15:12.320] Glovatsky and like Rosacruianism and all
[02:15:15.119] this kind of stuff. And then Lacatsky
[02:15:17.679] also often brings up consciousness and
[02:15:20.480] and that it be it's very central to this
[02:15:23.119] phenomenon. He also talks about human
[02:15:24.800] potential in sort of a
[02:15:26.719] >> well human potentials is psychic. That's
[02:15:28.480] the official technical military term for
[02:15:30.960] psychic phenomenon. They call it human
[02:15:32.880] potentials because it makes it platable
[02:15:35.440] to those naysayers and
[02:15:39.520] people with narrow minds and cognitive
[02:15:42.159] dissonance uh that this isn't a
[02:15:45.840] >> a card reading or a crystal ball reading
[02:15:49.440] type venture. This is real science.
[02:15:51.760] >> So they call it human potential to cover
[02:15:54.159] up what it really is platable.
[02:15:56.960] >> Right? And Lowsky says things like, you
[02:15:58.960] know, if we really understood what our
[02:16:00.400] true potential was, we wouldn't be I
[02:16:02.880] don't remember exactly what he said. We
[02:16:04.320] wouldn't be afraid or, you know, I don't
[02:16:06.480] know, he he says things to that effect.
[02:16:09.119] So it again brings into,
[02:16:11.760] you know, right to the center of the
[02:16:13.679] conversation, consciousness,
[02:16:15.920] maybe capacities we don't realize we
[02:16:17.920] have, um, but also that it's central to
[02:16:20.239] the phenomenon somehow. What What is
[02:16:22.480] your reading on on that? What like what
[02:16:25.679] how how does this super advanced
[02:16:28.000] technology and consciousness like what
[02:16:30.000] is the nexus there if you had to try to
[02:16:32.319] guess or explain it?
[02:16:33.280] >> Probably the NHI's
[02:16:36.559] figured out how to expand their
[02:16:38.000] consciousness to develop their um their
[02:16:40.639] remote viewing capabilities or psychic
[02:16:42.639] uh human potentials and um um to a level
[02:16:47.040] where they could do mind matter
[02:16:49.760] interface or mind machine interfacing.
[02:16:51.920] We've already been doing that now at a
[02:16:53.439] at the most rudimentary level where you
[02:16:55.679] put um a device over, you know, some
[02:16:58.319] sensors over a pilot's head
[02:17:01.200] >> and the sensor is recording his brain
[02:17:03.200] waves and he he has the intention on
[02:17:06.800] moving a mouse cursor on a on a Windows
[02:17:10.000] or Apple computer
[02:17:11.840] >> mentally. There's he's not connected up
[02:17:13.679] to any he's not connect.
[02:17:18.399] So yeah. So, they're moving mouse
[02:17:20.399] cursors around on the monitor mentally.
[02:17:23.760] And then uh then I think where are we at
[02:17:26.479] now? Are they playing video games or or
[02:17:29.120] typing? I think the last I've read is
[02:17:31.200] people are actually typing words and
[02:17:33.120] sentences out mentally.
[02:17:34.240] >> Well, who know? I mean I don't know like
[02:17:35.519] on a classified level but but even you
[02:17:37.679] know with um uh Elon Musk's uh neurolink
[02:17:40.719] you know there's people who have like
[02:17:42.399] degenerative brain diseases who are like
[02:17:44.479] are are like Lou Garri's type diseases
[02:17:46.960] where they're unable to move like they
[02:17:49.040] can interact completely with all of
[02:17:51.359] their digital they can play games they
[02:17:53.439] can write they can speak through um you
[02:17:56.240] know different software so yeah it's
[02:17:58.080] come quite a long way even in the public
[02:17:59.840] facing realm and I think there's even
[02:18:01.840] been things shown on next generation
[02:18:04.800] fighter pilot type levels where you can
[02:18:08.000] use a brain to computer interface to
[02:18:09.920] somehow enhance your ability to flyer
[02:18:13.840] jets and stuff like that. So I think the
[02:18:16.479] NHI's took it a light year beyond us or
[02:18:19.040] several light years beyond us where I
[02:18:21.040] think it's um human potential psychic
[02:18:24.399] psychic power uh probably just
[02:18:28.960] telepathies uh telekinesis psychokinesis
[02:18:31.679] the ability to move things mentally
[02:18:33.760] without the transference of energy um uh
[02:18:38.800] and they developed it that was because
[02:18:42.479] of the way they involved in their
[02:18:44.319] environment. ment. It was a survival
[02:18:47.280] tool that developed in their brains and
[02:18:49.359] they exploited it to the max.
[02:18:51.695] [clears throat] Uh I think we had an
[02:18:53.200] element of that in human history. Um I
[02:18:56.240] outlined that for a classified workshop
[02:18:58.719] I attended at the miner corporation in
[02:19:00.800] October 2005. But my presentation on
[02:19:04.800] that was unclassified. But I had to go
[02:19:07.359] into a skiff to give that presentation
[02:19:10.319] >> because the rest of the uh the workshop
[02:19:12.719] was all classified. And so um I brought
[02:19:15.359] that up.
[02:19:15.840] >> Was it all about sigh or was it like
[02:19:18.479] various different
[02:19:19.359] >> No, the workshop was other stuff. I was
[02:19:21.359] specifically asked by
[02:19:23.599] >> the secretary of defense and the deputy
[02:19:25.439] secretary of defense to give this talk
[02:19:27.439] because
[02:19:28.639] >> they had read my AFRL teleportation
[02:19:32.319] physics study and in chapter 5 I talked
[02:19:34.800] about the DIA analysis of China's uh
[02:19:39.200] experiments with gifted psychic children
[02:19:41.599] where they were able to physically
[02:19:43.280] teleport uh animate and inanimate
[02:19:46.639] objects from this
[02:19:48.240] >> laboratory sealed test tubes that were
[02:19:50.560] locked away in in one vault like a skiff
[02:19:53.680] vault. Uh they had uh high-speed cameras
[02:19:58.479] uh taking data, other other sensors
[02:20:00.880] taking data and the cameras.
[02:20:02.640] >> Do you think you think those were real?
[02:20:04.560] >> Those were real. How put off went out
[02:20:06.640] there to meet those scientists under DIA
[02:20:09.439] sponsorship to find out if those are
[02:20:11.280] real.
[02:20:12.080] >> And so the DIA wrote extensive reports
[02:20:14.080] on it. So they basically published in
[02:20:16.479] their peerreview literature and Hal was
[02:20:19.600] able to demonstrate uh was able to
[02:20:21.280] convince himself that these were not
[02:20:23.120] charlatans. They were not playing magic
[02:20:25.120] tricks and hoaxing everybody. This was a
[02:20:27.120] legitimate peer-review journal. It
[02:20:28.560] wasn't low class. It wasn't marginal. It
[02:20:30.880] was high class and it was funded by
[02:20:32.960] their aerospace by the Chinese by the
[02:20:35.680] people's liberation army's aerospace
[02:20:38.160] institute and aerospace medicine
[02:20:40.080] institute. So you don't get funding for
[02:20:42.399] that on junk.
[02:20:43.760] >> Right. Okay. So because even they have
[02:20:46.080] standards, scientific standards. So um
[02:20:50.160] so basically you see the contents of the
[02:20:52.399] of the test tubes vanish and reappear
[02:20:56.160] anywhere from a few feet away in a vault
[02:20:58.479] in another vault that's sealed in
[02:21:00.160] another um sealed test tube like
[02:21:02.479] container or flask in that other skiff
[02:21:06.800] vault. And the cameras and sensors are
[02:21:09.120] in there are observing it appear inside
[02:21:11.760] that sealed container.
[02:21:13.040] >> Wow. And then they separated further and
[02:21:15.439] further and then they got to the AM and
[02:21:17.280] FM microtransmitters.
[02:21:19.200] And that was very interesting because at
[02:21:21.359] the time they would disappear the radio
[02:21:24.080] receivers because these transmitters
[02:21:25.920] were receiving a signal. The laboratory
[02:21:28.240] receivers in the lab were detecting the
[02:21:30.640] signals getting weaker and weaker and
[02:21:32.240] weaker in in correlation with what you
[02:21:35.760] would expect from a transmitter that's
[02:21:37.680] moving away from the receiver and it's
[02:21:40.720] far away with the one over air r 2 uh uh
[02:21:46.319] radio wave intensity drop off fields
[02:21:48.800] intensity drop off that you would
[02:21:50.399] expect. So it's the one overr distance
[02:21:52.720] between the transmitter and receiver of
[02:21:54.880] the intensity of the radio wave falling.
[02:21:57.920] And so uh that meant minute it went off
[02:22:00.399] at a far distance. And then they started
[02:22:02.720] detecting it getting stronger as it
[02:22:04.560] materialized into the other uh sealed
[02:22:07.120] chamber and the in with the you know
[02:22:09.680] materializing into the sealed container
[02:22:12.240] that was contained in the sealed uh
[02:22:14.479] vault chamber. And so uh they did some
[02:22:17.600] calculations. Their best estimate was
[02:22:20.160] that these kids were teleporting these
[02:22:23.520] things through other space dimensions.
[02:22:26.000] >> That's the only thing they could
[02:22:27.600] conclude.
[02:22:28.800] >> That's so fascinating. Yeah, I've heard
[02:22:30.640] I've heard of this and I've seen there
[02:22:32.479] are some declassified documents out
[02:22:34.319] there on it that you can find in like
[02:22:36.240] the CIA reading room. Oh, DIA
[02:22:38.479] declassified. It's probably in the CIA
[02:22:40.160] reading room, but it's DIA documents.
[02:22:42.479] Um, but we're we're down to our last few
[02:22:44.880] minutes here. So, there's so I mean
[02:22:46.560] there's so many directions we've gone
[02:22:48.240] and so many more directions we could go,
[02:22:50.479] but just knowing we're down to our last
[02:22:52.080] few minutes, are there any final stories
[02:22:54.240] or things you want to bring up before we
[02:22:56.560] have to wrap it up?
[02:22:57.600] >> Oh, I can't think of any, but um but for
[02:23:01.600] Avi Lo and his UAP advis science
[02:23:05.120] advisory council, Yeah.
[02:23:06.479] >> I would have to say
[02:23:08.160] >> what I saw was scientific data,
[02:23:11.439] >> not hearsay.
[02:23:12.640] >> Yeah.
[02:23:13.040] >> Okay. It was scientific data.
[02:23:14.479] >> Right. and or scientific evidence. I've
[02:23:17.359] actually seen the collected evidence of
[02:23:20.479] a crash retrieval in a foreign country
[02:23:22.960] >> and um uh it is very real. Um there are
[02:23:26.479] methods you used are called trade craft
[02:23:29.120] in the intelligence business
[02:23:30.640] >> to be able to separate propaganda
[02:23:33.040] disinformation from real data or real
[02:23:36.880] information. So that this evidence I was
[02:23:39.680] given had gone through those filters had
[02:23:42.960] been uh examined top to bottom and
[02:23:47.439] ascertained to be not
[02:23:50.880] disinformation propaganda
[02:23:53.359] uh or disinformation/propaganda.
[02:23:56.000] Yeah,
[02:23:56.479] >> it was and the nature of how it was
[02:23:59.359] acquired and transmitted to the United
[02:24:01.840] States already guaranteed that and I
[02:24:03.680] can't even discuss that because that's
[02:24:05.600] one of the three-letter agency's most
[02:24:07.840] secret of all secrets is how you do
[02:24:09.520] human intelligence. So, they've already
[02:24:11.439] done all that. They they know the
[02:24:12.960] individual who was involved. They vetted
[02:24:15.280] him up and down and that individual was
[02:24:17.760] a scientist of huge stature and he was
[02:24:21.600] not being manipulated by any outside
[02:24:23.359] forces. He just basically pilered files
[02:24:26.000] and photographs and records out and
[02:24:28.560] brought it to our agencies and um they
[02:24:31.439] had their internal science review boards
[02:24:33.439] look at through their an look through it
[02:24:35.120] their analysts look through it but they
[02:24:36.800] didn't have a lot of background in this
[02:24:39.359] that I did at a level that they were you
[02:24:42.479] know confident as checking the box that
[02:24:45.439] this is good we we we agree with our
[02:24:48.000] conclusion on it.
[02:24:49.200] >> No, they wanted an outside independent
[02:24:51.520] assessor. Yeah. Yeah.
[02:24:52.640] >> And I was working with the OAP at the
[02:24:54.399] time and they chose me because I'm
[02:24:55.760] already cleared.
[02:24:56.720] >> So I'm already cleared at a TSSCI level.
[02:24:59.120] This was not WOWAP level, but the human
[02:25:01.359] intelligence u the threeletter agency
[02:25:05.040] does it. They pro it is probably a woo
[02:25:08.560] although they have a different category
[02:25:10.000] of of of uh of intelligence
[02:25:13.760] >> clearance for it. This is a crash that
[02:25:16.000] >> they were satisfied. I satisfied myself
[02:25:18.160] it was legitimate. So I saw the actual
[02:25:20.080] data. Yeah.
[02:25:20.880] >> And I saw it in the original foreign
[02:25:22.960] language. I saw the English translations
[02:25:25.040] of it so I could read it and study it.
[02:25:26.800] >> Yeah.
[02:25:27.200] >> And it was phenomenal. It it really
[02:25:29.600] captured my attention even more than the
[02:25:32.160] woman uh that I interviewed um uh and
[02:25:35.920] came into interaction with
[02:25:37.680] >> uh at the other aerospace company during
[02:25:39.439] the 90s.
[02:25:40.160] >> Well, maybe this maybe this would be
[02:25:41.760] good fodder for part two, my friend,
[02:25:43.840] because there's so much more. But this
[02:25:45.280] has been fantastic. It's gone all over
[02:25:47.120] the place in an awesome awesome way. I
[02:25:49.359] heard you talk about some things I've
[02:25:50.479] never heard you talk about before. So,
[02:25:52.319] thank you for your time, man. Thank you
[02:25:53.520] for coming down here. Can't wait to put
[02:25:55.359] this out.
[02:25:55.920] >> Good to be here.
[02:25:56.560] >> Thanks, man. All right.