Jim Semivan — "Senior CIA Officer: Even We Don't Know What the Phenomenon Is" (Lehto Files, 2025)

Source: YouTube, Lehto Files — "Senior CIA Officer: Even We Don't Know What the Phenomenon Is." Published: 2025-07-05 (1:45:12). URL: https://youtu.be/Gb0QsymVCcs Speaker: Jim Semivan, former CIA Operations Officer (National Clandestine Service; ~25 years undercover, special assistant to the deputy director) and co-founder of To The Stars Academy. Transcription: YouTube English auto-captions via youtube_transcript.py --timestamps (machine ASR; minor errors). Captured: 2026-06-07. Analysis: ../../sources/semivan-cia-experiencer.

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[00:00:00.719] the majority of my career, I I was not
[00:00:03.600] the least bit interested um in UAP.
[00:00:09.519] But it wasn't until this incident my
[00:00:11.280] wife and I had in the early '9s that uh
[00:00:14.719] uh really changed everything.
[00:00:20.480] So I was there and I I was unable to
[00:00:23.039] move. Uh but I wasn't afraid. And the
[00:00:25.840] entities were like nothing uh you know
[00:00:28.880] I've ever seen in the literature before.
[00:00:34.000] And they may have down craft. They may
[00:00:35.920] have you know pictures. I've seen them.
[00:00:38.800] I you know you absolutely startling. Uh
[00:00:43.200] and that's the other part of it. When
[00:00:44.640] you actually see the evidence the
[00:00:45.840] evidence is all classified and they
[00:00:47.280] won't let it out.
[00:00:50.800] when you see it and then you have people
[00:00:53.680] very serious people scientists sitting
[00:00:55.920] you down and telling you oh yeah this is
[00:00:58.800] real uh clairvoyance is real remote
[00:01:00.960] viewing is real telekinesis is real and
[00:01:02.960] they're going through all these size and
[00:01:05.040] then they start giving you the
[00:01:06.560] information and they start telling you
[00:01:07.920] about classified programs that you got I
[00:01:10.479] mean where the hell will you put this
[00:01:14.560] if you have a 25% you know like uh 25% %
[00:01:18.799] of your population either becomes sick,
[00:01:22.000] ill, dead, or just disassociates for
[00:01:25.439] some reason or other. Civilization can
[00:01:28.159] be on the verge of collapse. Food
[00:01:29.600] production shuts down. Everything shuts
[00:01:31.360] down.
[00:01:34.720] I think they view us as property.
[00:01:44.960] Chris Leato, welcome to Lato Files.
[00:01:51.040] Today's conversation completely changed
[00:01:52.960] my perspective on UFO disclosure and why
[00:01:57.439] our government has handled this topic
[00:01:59.520] the way it has. Our guest spent 34 years
[00:02:03.280] in the CIA. That's including 25 years as
[00:02:06.560] an operations officer in the National
[00:02:08.720] Clan and Stein Service. He was running
[00:02:11.520] spies, managing classified programs, and
[00:02:14.000] serving as special assistant to the
[00:02:16.080] deputy director of operations.
[00:02:19.280] But it was his personal UAP experience
[00:02:21.360] in the early9s that sent him on a
[00:02:23.680] decadesl long investigation into the
[00:02:25.520] phenomenon, connecting him with others
[00:02:27.760] inside the intelligence community who
[00:02:30.000] had been quietly studying this for 80
[00:02:31.840] years. The invisible college.
[00:02:34.400] Jim Seivan isn't just another
[00:02:36.319] whistleblower making claims. He's
[00:02:38.480] someone who's seen the classified
[00:02:39.760] evidence. He knows the people in the
[00:02:41.519] legacy programs and he understands why
[00:02:44.319] this is what he calls the wickedest
[00:02:46.319] problem facing humanity. By the end of
[00:02:49.120] this discussion, I found myself with a a
[00:02:52.160] different perspective and understanding
[00:02:54.319] of the CIA's role in this mystery. And
[00:02:57.200] maybe for the first time, I actually
[00:02:59.760] understand why disclosure is so much
[00:03:02.159] more complicated than any of us on the
[00:03:04.560] outside realize. This conversation
[00:03:07.200] changed my perspective. I think it might
[00:03:09.680] change yours, too.
[00:03:13.980] [Music]
[00:03:18.640] Thank you so much, Jim, for being here.
[00:03:20.239] How are you doing, sir? I'm fine. Thank
[00:03:22.640] you so much for having me, Chris. Your
[00:03:24.800] CIA background and UAP awareness is is
[00:03:27.920] such an interesting crossroads. You
[00:03:29.920] know, when did you first become aware of
[00:03:32.400] UAPs during your intelligence career?
[00:03:35.440] And how did that shape your decision to
[00:03:37.920] co-found to the stars academy after?
[00:03:41.360] That's a that's a good question. You
[00:03:43.040] know, and for the majority of my career,
[00:03:46.480] I I was not the least bit interested um
[00:03:49.440] in UAP and uh it didn't affect, you
[00:03:53.680] know, my job. My job was as a, you know,
[00:03:56.400] member of the clandestine service. I was
[00:03:58.239] an operations officer essentially a guy
[00:04:01.040] who ran spies or ran programs. uh and I
[00:04:04.000] ran quite a few of both. So, uh it
[00:04:07.040] wasn't until my wife and I had an
[00:04:08.640] experience back in the early 90s uh that
[00:04:12.959] uh I became interested in UAP. I before
[00:04:16.799] then, since I was in college, I had a
[00:04:19.919] strong interest in uh what we would
[00:04:22.400] consider the occult, but it was mostly
[00:04:24.320] mysticism.
[00:04:26.320] uh uh the concept of romanticism in
[00:04:29.520] German romanticism, British American
[00:04:31.600] transcendentalism, things along those
[00:04:33.199] lines. And that led me to um uh an
[00:04:37.440] interest in things that were unseen,
[00:04:40.080] let's put it that way, sort of the
[00:04:42.000] secret history of the world, right? And
[00:04:43.919] uh so I'd always had that as sort of a
[00:04:46.240] hobby, a side hobby. But it wasn't until
[00:04:48.400] this incident my wife and I had in the
[00:04:50.479] early 90s that uh uh uh it really
[00:04:54.639] changed everything. Uh uh and um I began
[00:04:58.720] to inquire more about UAPs and look into
[00:05:01.280] UFOs and I checked with some friends of
[00:05:04.000] mine at the agency who did have an
[00:05:05.600] interest in them and um they led me to
[00:05:09.840] or pointed me towards uh some books
[00:05:13.039] mostly Jacques Jacqu Valet's books and
[00:05:16.320] um and I've since gotten to know Jacques
[00:05:18.880] very well and he's a good friend and and
[00:05:21.199] but that started my interest. So for the
[00:05:24.960] last
[00:05:26.479] you know 354 years I've been studying
[00:05:28.639] it. Uh I'm a student of this. I'm not a
[00:05:30.639] researcher by any stretch of the
[00:05:32.000] imagination but um uh I do do a lot of
[00:05:36.160] research. Uh read quite a few books and
[00:05:38.720] talked to quite a few people in the
[00:05:41.039] community about this. So I have a decent
[00:05:43.120] background. And that's so interesting.
[00:05:45.360] you were in the CIA and I'm I'm just
[00:05:48.400] assuming here that you had no interest
[00:05:50.080] at all in UAPs and then you had this
[00:05:52.960] encounter you mentioned uh with your
[00:05:55.280] wife. Um can you talk through that uh
[00:05:57.680] that basic encounter just so the
[00:05:59.360] audience has an idea? Yeah, it was uh it
[00:06:02.720] was a typical uh encounter. When I say
[00:06:05.600] typical, it it had a lot of the
[00:06:07.680] characteristics
[00:06:09.199] of uh what we would call an abduction
[00:06:11.520] scenario. I
[00:06:14.080] don't call it that uh because I have no
[00:06:17.199] clue what it was. Uh you know, and I
[00:06:20.080] hate putting a name on it. I just call
[00:06:23.199] it an experience. And it's essentially,
[00:06:26.960] you know, it it had some of the classic
[00:06:29.199] elements. Like I said, it's laying in
[00:06:31.680] bed
[00:06:33.280] one night. Woke up laying on my back and
[00:06:36.639] looking at the foot of the bed and there
[00:06:38.240] were these three entities there, right?
[00:06:40.639] And uh and what was startling about it
[00:06:43.919] uh was it was as real as me talking to
[00:06:47.600] you. It was almost realer than real if
[00:06:50.160] you can imagine that. So I was there and
[00:06:53.280] I I was unable to move. Uh but I wasn't
[00:06:56.560] afraid and the entities were like
[00:06:58.800] nothing uh you know I've ever seen in
[00:07:01.520] the literature before. Um, later on I've
[00:07:05.520] I've learned that these types of
[00:07:07.680] entities have shown themselves two or
[00:07:10.160] three times to other people. Once in
[00:07:13.759] Spain, once in Maitius, then and then
[00:07:16.639] me, right? There might have been other
[00:07:18.160] people that have seen these things, too.
[00:07:20.240] But, uh, I had a friend of mine, a
[00:07:22.720] researcher, you know, named them or
[00:07:24.880] calls them by bendum. By bendy, which is
[00:07:27.680] the plural for bendum. by Bendum
[00:07:31.440] is the name of the Michelin tire man.
[00:07:33.360] You know the with the like the body
[00:07:35.840] armor, white body armor. Only mine had a
[00:07:37.680] sort of type black body armor on. So um
[00:07:41.599] I was um
[00:07:43.919] and it wasn't particularly unpleasant.
[00:07:46.639] It it was um uh and then you know I had
[00:07:50.800] this you know they were looking at me
[00:07:52.960] and they had a looked like little tiny
[00:07:54.639] smiles but I couldn't tell. And then
[00:07:56.319] there was another part.
[00:07:59.120] These experiences, these Dr. Spears,
[00:08:00.960] sometimes they're broken up. It's like a
[00:08:03.280] film. You know, you seeing something and
[00:08:04.960] all of a sudden it shoots to another
[00:08:06.319] take and then it shoots to another take.
[00:08:08.160] And there's no rhyme or reason for it.
[00:08:09.759] The first one was in color. The second
[00:08:11.280] two were in black and white for strange
[00:08:12.960] reason. I don't know. But then again, I
[00:08:14.800] was out in the middle of my street
[00:08:16.160] behind my house
[00:08:18.479] uh with my wife and uh some entity, very
[00:08:22.319] tall entity was behind me and uh we he
[00:08:27.680] was pointing up to the sky and I was
[00:08:29.280] looking at the sky and there were these
[00:08:30.639] three orbs in the sky in a triangular
[00:08:34.399] pattern and uh and I'm staring at them
[00:08:38.640] and they merged into one and it shot
[00:08:42.959] off. And I remember
[00:08:46.880] saying to my wife,
[00:08:49.440] "Let's get the [ __ ] out of here before
[00:08:51.200] they come back." That's exactly the
[00:08:53.440] phrase I used. And uh I mean that's what
[00:08:55.920] I remember saying to my wife. And then
[00:08:59.519] it cuts like a film and it and the other
[00:09:01.680] part of it is my wife and I trying to
[00:09:03.600] get back into the house, right? She and
[00:09:06.720] her night night gown, you know, and me
[00:09:09.600] stark naked because that's how I sleep.
[00:09:12.320] And then at exactly 7 a.m. in the
[00:09:15.519] morning, I wake up
[00:09:19.040] laying on my back, totally wide awake,
[00:09:22.080] which is highly unusual for me. I'm not
[00:09:24.240] a good
[00:09:26.000] I don't wake up well ever. And uh I'm
[00:09:29.519] always groggy and I was just beside
[00:09:32.880] myself. I I couldn't believe this
[00:09:35.200] experience.
[00:09:36.720] And I looked to my right and uh my wife
[00:09:40.399] wasn't there. and she was in the
[00:09:42.720] bathroom. So, um I went over and knocked
[00:09:45.279] on the door and she opened the door and
[00:09:47.600] she was clearly in a bad way. And uh uh
[00:09:52.480] I said, "What's the matter?" And she
[00:09:54.000] said, "Uh, I don't know." She said,
[00:09:55.680] "Just really I'm bleeding pretty badly."
[00:09:58.240] And she said, "I don't know what this is
[00:09:59.600] all about. I never had this issue
[00:10:01.120] before." So, we had to get her to the
[00:10:03.760] doctor. Uh and this lasted for this
[00:10:07.680] condition lasted for 17 days. Um, my
[00:10:12.959] I had a physical issue. I had a a hole
[00:10:16.160] in the back of my neck which my wife
[00:10:18.240] found later that morning. I knew it was
[00:10:20.720] there. I just thought it was a scratch
[00:10:22.560] or a pimple or something. And but it was
[00:10:25.760] a round hole. It was the size of a
[00:10:27.680] pencil eraser. Uh, and uh, it wasn't
[00:10:31.200] bleeding profusely or anything like
[00:10:32.720] that, but it was there. And uh, so I
[00:10:35.680] didn't think anything of it.
[00:10:39.040] uh I didn't focus on it and it was later
[00:10:43.279] the next day I was in work and I think
[00:10:45.200] it was on a Friday and uh I was still
[00:10:47.760] sort of wasn't perturbed about this. I
[00:10:50.160] was didn't know where to put it, you
[00:10:51.760] know, what the hell happened, right? And
[00:10:54.399] uh and my wife's a clinical
[00:10:56.480] psychologist, so you know, we I I know
[00:10:59.600] quite a bit about liinal states and and
[00:11:02.800] lucid dreaming and uh nightmares and all
[00:11:06.399] that kind of stuff. So, this clearly
[00:11:08.480] didn't fit into this category at all.
[00:11:10.399] And this is something totally different.
[00:11:12.320] So anyway, I ran into somebody in the
[00:11:13.839] agency who was a deep cover officer who
[00:11:17.839] was in my branch at the time and uh I
[00:11:21.120] just happened to share it with him. Uh
[00:11:22.880] and uh and he was a UFO officionado, you
[00:11:27.920] know, sort of a researcher on his own.
[00:11:30.320] He had a doctorate. I knew that. I
[00:11:31.760] didn't know his real name. He was a
[00:11:33.680] nonofficial covered officer who was
[00:11:36.079] working back in the States
[00:11:38.800] um until he went overseas again. And
[00:11:41.360] then he told me essentially what you had
[00:11:44.000] was sounds like a classic, you know,
[00:11:46.720] abduction experience. And then he went
[00:11:48.399] through the whole thing and he asked me
[00:11:50.399] if my there was any unexplained
[00:11:51.760] bleeding. And that's that's when I sort
[00:11:53.279] of freaked out a little bit. And he
[00:11:56.320] asked me if I had any marks on me and I
[00:11:58.720] said, "No, I don't think so." And he
[00:12:00.160] goes, "Nothing at all. Any scoop marks?"
[00:12:02.480] And I said, "No, I I can't think of
[00:12:04.399] anything." And he and he said, "What
[00:12:06.000] about the back of your neck?" Just like
[00:12:08.399] that. Wow. And I went like, you know,
[00:12:10.959] moving my head around and I always wore
[00:12:12.480] these white shirts, you know, and, you
[00:12:13.920] know, typical agency uniform, you know,
[00:12:15.920] and with a foolard tie. So, he comes
[00:12:18.800] over and he undoes it, right? And he
[00:12:20.560] pulls it back and he goes, "Yeah, you
[00:12:21.920] got a perfect hole." He said, "It got
[00:12:23.680] blood on your collar." He said, and um,
[00:12:26.800] so anyway, long story short, that was
[00:12:28.560] that. He he told me what to do. He told
[00:12:30.399] me what to look up. And then later on I
[00:12:32.880] started asking questions uh very
[00:12:36.560] carefully uh at the agency. Um and there
[00:12:42.240] are people in all the intelligence
[00:12:45.519] community and through DoD that study
[00:12:48.720] this and their name was the invisible
[00:12:50.880] college back in the day. And uh and so I
[00:12:54.079] got in touch with them and uh uh learned
[00:12:57.600] a little bit. Um I pushed the envelope a
[00:13:00.480] little bit while I was uh in the agency.
[00:13:03.360] I I became uh a few years after that uh
[00:13:08.160] the special assistant to the deputy
[00:13:09.839] director of operations, the chief spy.
[00:13:12.240] Did that for almost two years. And it
[00:13:14.320] was then that I learned that there are a
[00:13:16.560] lot of agency people very senior a
[00:13:18.399] people who who actually did have a
[00:13:21.040] strong interest in this. But um I didn't
[00:13:24.320] identify any program or anything like
[00:13:26.079] that that the agency had. Uh so it
[00:13:29.279] wasn't until I retired and I went back
[00:13:32.240] to work for the agency in another
[00:13:34.800] capacity
[00:13:37.040] and uh it was around 2014
[00:13:41.440] that I met a fellow from the Pentagon uh
[00:13:43.760] John Alexander who you probably know of.
[00:13:46.000] Um and uh he uh I met him at a
[00:13:49.920] conference uh on energy and um he had
[00:13:54.240] just finished his book, written his book
[00:13:56.000] and on UFOs and so I chatted him up and
[00:13:58.800] told him my story and and then he came
[00:14:02.079] to my house videotaped my wife and I and
[00:14:05.519] then the next thing you know he sent it
[00:14:07.760] off. He went to talk to some of his
[00:14:10.560] colleagues and then I started getting
[00:14:13.360] phone calls from well first uh Jock
[00:14:17.279] Valle came to my house. We spent the day
[00:14:20.000] together and then a group of people came
[00:14:24.880] uh to my house and took my medical files
[00:14:30.480] uh took blood samples, saliva,
[00:14:35.839] you know, you name it. gave me a HIPPA
[00:14:37.519] restricted briefing on uh on
[00:14:41.519] intelligence and people intelligence
[00:14:44.320] officers and JC officers and pilots and
[00:14:49.360] uh who've had encounters with UAP UFOs
[00:14:53.199] and what had happened to them uh
[00:14:56.240] physically. Uh so that was a little bit
[00:15:00.079] of a shock and uh so anyway uh that's
[00:15:04.000] sort of how it began and then later on I
[00:15:05.839] got briefed um classified briefings not
[00:15:08.720] so much on UAP but on other areas of um
[00:15:12.800] what we would call paranormal or we
[00:15:14.720] would call the phenomenon uh and what it
[00:15:17.440] is aspects of it
[00:15:20.000] had that and that's that was uh that was
[00:15:23.440] lifealtering for me realizing that yeah
[00:15:26.720] all all this stuff is actually true.
[00:15:30.480] And oh, by the way, we don't know what
[00:15:31.920] the hell it is.
[00:15:35.440] I mean, that's that story is is
[00:15:37.839] mind-blowing. I mean, that must have
[00:15:40.240] changed your whole outlook, right?
[00:15:42.320] Especially when you have your wife there
[00:15:44.800] who can really fully corroborate the
[00:15:47.360] experience for you, right? You know, if
[00:15:49.440] it happened to myself alone. Yeah. Well,
[00:15:52.079] my wife didn't doesn't remember
[00:15:53.360] anything. She had no no recall of of
[00:15:56.240] anything at all except that she had a
[00:15:57.839] physical physical issue. Now my wife and
[00:16:00.560] by the same token um comes from a a
[00:16:03.519] family that um that have had these
[00:16:07.040] experiences before her mother in
[00:16:09.120] particular recently passed away. They
[00:16:11.759] used to tell her when she was kids, you
[00:16:14.160] know, yeah, you know, I have I have
[00:16:16.160] children up there. She would point to
[00:16:17.360] the sky, you know, I have children up
[00:16:18.800] there. And her mother's always said
[00:16:20.000] that. I remember, you know, meeting her
[00:16:22.240] mother. we were we've been married 40ome
[00:16:24.320] years 44 years and her mother always
[00:16:26.720] talked about that. So it sort of runs in
[00:16:28.880] her family but she doesn't have any
[00:16:30.399] particular recall of that. Now in the
[00:16:33.199] same time we lived in a house in
[00:16:35.120] Virginia uh that had what you would call
[00:16:38.959] now classic poltergeist activity. Um my
[00:16:42.560] wife and I we don't have any children
[00:16:44.560] and we're generally very easygoing and
[00:16:47.600] my wife's very spiritual so it didn't
[00:16:49.920] bother us at all. As a matter of fact,
[00:16:52.079] we we didn't we sort of welcomed it. It
[00:16:54.480] was one of those things where, you know,
[00:16:55.920] the the noises at night, the uh
[00:16:58.800] cigarette smoke in our room, the uh the
[00:17:01.920] entities, you know, rubbing my wife's
[00:17:04.319] head and patting my wife's head, uh odd
[00:17:07.520] things in the house, you know, being
[00:17:09.439] moved. Uh I mean, it was it was amusing
[00:17:12.640] more than anything else, but I never
[00:17:14.720] really gave it much thought. My wife and
[00:17:16.160] I were like, well, stuff like this
[00:17:18.160] happens. You know, it's it's and through
[00:17:20.240] my studies, I knew this was happening.
[00:17:22.319] But what I did was you don't give it
[00:17:25.039] energy, right? You don't you don't focus
[00:17:26.959] on it. You don't get scared. You don't
[00:17:28.640] get happy. You don't do anything. You
[00:17:30.000] just let it alone. If it's there, it's
[00:17:31.679] there. Uh at one point my wife got
[00:17:34.240] together with some of her friends um who
[00:17:36.400] were spiritually inclined and they asked
[00:17:38.160] it this entity you know if it's okay and
[00:17:42.480] if it needed anything and if it wanted
[00:17:44.320] to stay it was welcome to stay at our
[00:17:46.000] house and uh and and but if it needed to
[00:17:49.280] move on it it then you know they would
[00:17:51.600] help it move on. Well it left and uh it
[00:17:55.840] hadn't come back. Uh and so that was
[00:17:57.679] pretty interesting.
[00:17:59.440] What's also I find interesting is that,
[00:18:01.840] you know, most people, a lot of my
[00:18:03.760] audience members who have had UAP or
[00:18:07.360] crazy experiences like that, when they
[00:18:09.039] bring it up with people, they're very
[00:18:11.280] skeptical. You know, they initially get
[00:18:13.039] the stigma immediately. People look at
[00:18:15.280] them like they're crazy, but it you got
[00:18:17.760] the complete opposite from inside the
[00:18:19.600] CIA. You know, how did he know about the
[00:18:23.039] back of your neck or why would he bring
[00:18:24.720] up bleeding? Exactly. Do you know did
[00:18:26.480] you get any more information on that? Uh
[00:18:28.960] yeah, I mean uh I mean essentially when
[00:18:31.039] you when you research the topic and I've
[00:18:33.679] done that very very much. I mean I I I
[00:18:37.520] spent I spent all my free time doing
[00:18:39.919] this. So it's when you research it you
[00:18:42.320] know that there are like I said elements
[00:18:44.240] of of these experiences and um you
[00:18:48.880] they're pretty much the same worldwide.
[00:18:51.679] Uh there are some elements that are a
[00:18:55.280] little bit different than others, but
[00:18:57.039] more or less these the storyline is the
[00:18:59.280] same. The narrative is the same. You
[00:19:01.440] get, you know, you get abducted, you go
[00:19:03.280] onto a craft. Now, I don't remember any
[00:19:05.120] craft at all, but you have these these
[00:19:07.360] things that happen, right? And there's a
[00:19:10.240] sequence of how they happen. And then
[00:19:12.160] usually at the end there's what um I
[00:19:15.679] think Peter Sturk called a theophony
[00:19:18.000] which which is really a catharsis where
[00:19:20.000] where people change. The best example of
[00:19:22.559] that is Chris Bledo a dear friend of
[00:19:24.559] mine who you know went from sheer terror
[00:19:27.120] at his experience to this this wonderful
[00:19:30.400] beautiful spiritual transformation. Now
[00:19:33.039] that happens uh that did not happen with
[00:19:35.360] me. As a matter of fact, I I'm not
[00:19:38.000] exactly the opposite, but I I look at
[00:19:40.240] what happened to me as as more of a
[00:19:42.160] human rights violation than anything
[00:19:43.679] else. Uh so I'm I'm very very interested
[00:19:47.919] in trying to find out
[00:19:50.240] more about it, what it actually was,
[00:19:53.280] what it is. And I have to tell you,
[00:19:55.760] after 40 some odd years and speaking to
[00:19:57.679] everybody in the business, and I know
[00:19:59.039] them all, um classified and
[00:20:01.440] unclassified, nobody has a nobody has a
[00:20:04.480] clue. Wow. Really? Wow. Really? Nobody
[00:20:08.320] has a clue. I mean, in the end, you can
[00:20:10.160] you can talk to them and they'll they'll
[00:20:11.840] give you, you know, uh uh you know,
[00:20:16.080] their interpretation or their best guess
[00:20:18.640] or the best guesstimate. But even the
[00:20:21.440] people on in the legacy programs
[00:20:25.440] uh you know, the one that's been
[00:20:27.039] studying this for the government for
[00:20:28.720] like 80 years, I mean, they don't know.
[00:20:32.240] They don't know. They they they and they
[00:20:34.960] may have down craft. They may have you
[00:20:37.200] know pictures. I've seen them you know
[00:20:40.000] you absolutely startling. Uh and that's
[00:20:44.159] the other part of it when you actually
[00:20:45.520] see the evidence. The evidence is all
[00:20:47.039] classified and they won't let it out and
[00:20:48.799] and okay you know that's a whole another
[00:20:50.559] topic we can get into if you want the
[00:20:52.640] idea of disclosure. But um when you see
[00:20:56.320] it and then you have people very serious
[00:20:59.520] people scientists sitting you down and
[00:21:01.520] telling you oh yeah this is real uh
[00:21:04.480] clairvoyance is real remote viewing is
[00:21:06.400] real telekinesis is real and they're
[00:21:08.080] going through all these sigh psychic you
[00:21:11.039] know um uh things you know I I you and
[00:21:16.640] then they start giving you the
[00:21:18.159] information and they start telling you
[00:21:19.600] about classified programs that you got I
[00:21:22.080] mean where the hell are you put this and
[00:21:23.679] then You're looking for explanations
[00:21:24.960] just like they are. Uh because you you
[00:21:28.240] you want to go to science and you want
[00:21:30.799] to go to science and you want to say
[00:21:32.720] okay where does this fit in to what we
[00:21:34.880] know and there is no place. I think the
[00:21:37.360] closest approximation we have is
[00:21:39.440] probably quantum mechanics and and
[00:21:42.640] consciousness the study of
[00:21:44.799] consciousness. But when you
[00:21:47.840] look at both of those areas both of
[00:21:49.679] those areas are you know they're sort of
[00:21:52.000] in their infancy. We we know very very
[00:21:53.919] little. And as one physicist mentioned,
[00:21:56.960] he said, if you know, if the quantum
[00:21:58.960] mechanics doesn't scare you, you're not
[00:22:00.720] you don't really know what quantum
[00:22:01.840] mechanics is all about because
[00:22:03.760] essentially just basically tells this is
[00:22:05.679] all a quantum illusion that we're living
[00:22:07.280] in, right? So it's very complicated. It
[00:22:10.000] comes very very complicated after a
[00:22:11.840] while. You it's there's a nuts and bolts
[00:22:14.000] aspect to it. People see things in the
[00:22:15.679] sky and they point to it or they see,
[00:22:18.240] you know, uh maybe a non-human
[00:22:21.520] intelligence or an alien or they what
[00:22:23.840] have you and they see it as physical and
[00:22:27.120] they can relate to that. But really
[00:22:30.000] that's sort of a facade in a way. You
[00:22:32.720] the questions a serious question is well
[00:22:35.520] what's behind it?
[00:22:37.679] What does it mean? What are the
[00:22:40.000] intentions? What are the capabilities?
[00:22:41.600] And then what does it mean for our
[00:22:44.240] default reality that we're living in?
[00:22:46.240] Are we living in a reality that's really
[00:22:50.320] a consensus reality but not the true
[00:22:52.559] reality? So it very very quickly becomes
[00:22:56.159] very complicated and also very scary if
[00:22:59.520] you think about it. Uh so uh we like to
[00:23:03.600] live in a world that's you know we see
[00:23:05.840] it as very materialistic uh and
[00:23:09.280] mechanistic you know and we rarely go
[00:23:13.120] into the spiritual or rarely go into
[00:23:16.400] some of the weirder aspects of this. But
[00:23:19.200] if you want to know where the real
[00:23:23.280] world exists it's not in what you see
[00:23:26.720] around you. It's it's what you don't
[00:23:29.360] see.
[00:23:31.120] And maybe it's because our s sensory
[00:23:33.600] package isn't geared to to see it. I
[00:23:38.400] mean, our brain is blinkered somewhat,
[00:23:40.480] right? It's it's it's a veil and we
[00:23:42.720] haven't broken through that. Now, some
[00:23:44.640] people have. Some mystics have done
[00:23:46.400] that. some people who um heard a
[00:23:49.360] fascinating show the other day on coast
[00:23:51.120] to coast radio um on DM DMT
[00:23:55.600] dimethylryptoamine you know and this
[00:23:57.600] little molecule chemical in your brain
[00:23:59.600] that pushes you into another world
[00:24:02.320] absolutely fascinating everybody sees
[00:24:04.320] the same thing when they do this when
[00:24:06.559] they're put on this drug how unusual is
[00:24:08.960] that it's like IA taking Iawaska which I
[00:24:11.760] have never done but
[00:24:15.039] you were in the CIA for for so many
[00:24:16.720] years and they seem even open-minded
[00:24:19.120] about it. Why do you think the
[00:24:21.200] government at least appears,
[00:24:24.080] you know, very hesitant to acknowledge
[00:24:26.559] that any of this is real and they
[00:24:28.480] continue to promote the narrative that
[00:24:30.640] um, you know, it doesn't exist, there's
[00:24:32.400] no non-human intelligence, etc.
[00:24:35.679] Well, you know, interestingly, the
[00:24:37.600] government has been
[00:24:40.400] doing this, this one person called a
[00:24:42.880] tradition of disbelief. I mean, they
[00:24:44.480] they manufactured this back in the uh in
[00:24:49.120] the 40s when when they ran into the
[00:24:50.960] problem. They they they knew about this
[00:24:52.799] back in the early in the 30s, actually.
[00:24:54.720] And they didn't I mean, it was so far
[00:24:56.480] beyond what they could comprehend.
[00:25:00.320] And it wasn't until the 40s with the
[00:25:02.640] Roswell crash and then uh another crash
[00:25:06.320] uh uh that they realized they had a
[00:25:09.919] problem, a very big problem. and uh what
[00:25:12.960] do you do with this? Uh it wasn't uh
[00:25:17.600] serendipitous that this
[00:25:20.960] uh
[00:25:22.799] crash occurred near near Roswell Air
[00:25:26.080] Force Base which basically was a nuclear
[00:25:28.320] our nuclear base, right? So it has an
[00:25:30.320] affinity this this phenomena has an
[00:25:32.240] affinity for nuclear material. So it
[00:25:35.039] shows up, you know, all over the place.
[00:25:36.720] But anyway, so what do you do? you're
[00:25:39.039] President Truman and you know your top
[00:25:41.039] air force generals come up to you and
[00:25:42.480] say you won't believe what we have not
[00:25:44.640] only that we have bodies and we have
[00:25:46.000] these crashing and we don't understand
[00:25:47.600] anything about it Truman's stuck with it
[00:25:50.000] and you know it's a hot potato the air
[00:25:52.640] force doesn't want it you know because
[00:25:55.120] what the hell are they going to do with
[00:25:56.240] it so what does Truman do you know the
[00:25:59.279] National Defense Act of 1947 he creates
[00:26:01.840] CIA he creates um the department of
[00:26:04.960] defense he creates the joint chiefs of
[00:26:06.799] staff he uh and and you know some other
[00:26:09.520] entities and and then he says well okay
[00:26:11.679] let's you know I'll he picks two right
[00:26:14.799] and says you two look at this so the CIA
[00:26:18.159] at that time had the charter to do that
[00:26:19.919] and so did the air force so the air
[00:26:21.520] force and the CIA at that time um picked
[00:26:25.039] up on this topic now they have not
[00:26:27.279] admitted this in any way shape or form
[00:26:31.279] and I'm not speaking officially either
[00:26:34.000] on this I can't uh so I you know but
[00:26:37.360] those are the most logical people to
[00:26:39.919] pick this up and run with it. So, the
[00:26:42.640] agency has put out uh uh an unclassified
[00:26:46.960] history of their involvement with UFOs
[00:26:49.679] and it's on their website. You can read
[00:26:51.279] it and it talks about it, you know, and
[00:26:52.799] and it talks about, you know, who they
[00:26:55.520] put in charge and, you know, what
[00:26:57.279] elements were in charge of this and
[00:26:58.880] looking at it. Um, and they were very
[00:27:01.840] interested in it because it's it's and
[00:27:03.360] they remain interested in it because
[00:27:04.880] they that's their charter. They have to
[00:27:07.279] prevent another Pearl Harbor, right? And
[00:27:09.520] so does the Air Force. So things like
[00:27:11.840] this just don't go away. Now, the
[00:27:15.120] government, what the government is not
[00:27:17.520] doing, the government isn't saying that
[00:27:20.400] this isn't real. What the government is
[00:27:22.320] basically saying, we're not going to
[00:27:23.600] officially confirm that this is true.
[00:27:27.200] We're not going to come out officially
[00:27:28.559] and say that. And I think the reason for
[00:27:31.279] that is because they don't know what to
[00:27:33.200] say. Uh uh you know I was on a podcast
[00:27:37.120] not too long ago and somebody asked me
[00:27:39.039] you know about disclosure and and
[00:27:41.520] there's this concept now that's being
[00:27:43.840] discussed limited disclosure versus
[00:27:46.799] catastrophic disclosure.
[00:27:49.360] Catastrophic disclosure
[00:27:51.840] is where the president comes out and it
[00:27:54.399] has to be the president. It can't be
[00:27:55.840] anybody else. comes out and says, "All
[00:27:58.960] right, um, we're not alone in the
[00:28:01.919] universe, and uh, there are three to six
[00:28:06.480] different types of alien
[00:28:09.039] species or non-human intelligence that
[00:28:11.120] have visited the planet and are
[00:28:12.320] currently on the planet. We have crashed
[00:28:14.720] saucers
[00:28:16.240] um, and just basically lets loose with
[00:28:18.799] everything that the government knows."
[00:28:22.240] The
[00:28:24.240] end result of that is relatively unknown
[00:28:27.679] and we don't know how anybody would
[00:28:29.600] react to it
[00:28:32.399] and I think particularly if the
[00:28:35.840] president says we don't know their
[00:28:38.480] intentions or cap capabilities.
[00:28:42.080] Well, the president's job
[00:28:44.960] is to defend the Constitution of the
[00:28:46.799] United States and it's also to defend
[00:28:48.320] the American people. That's what the
[00:28:49.840] military's job is. That's what
[00:28:51.120] intelligence community's job is. And now
[00:28:53.279] you're going out and you're telling
[00:28:54.640] people um a um there are these non-human
[00:29:00.320] intelligences that are uh on this
[00:29:02.320] planet, have been on this planet
[00:29:03.760] probably for 2,000 years, recorded
[00:29:05.679] history, and uh they have these ability
[00:29:08.320] to uh take you uh at any moment. Uh they
[00:29:11.600] have the ability to plant memories in
[00:29:13.760] your mind. They can control you. They
[00:29:16.240] can control me. They can control
[00:29:18.000] everybody. So essentially what he's
[00:29:20.240] saying is we're no longer at the top of
[00:29:22.080] the food chain, right? And he's even
[00:29:24.240] going further than that because he's
[00:29:25.840] saying, well, they may be godlike.
[00:29:30.640] They may be omnisient. They may be the
[00:29:33.840] gods. I mean, every major religion talks
[00:29:37.600] about sky gods. There isn't one that
[00:29:39.279] doesn't uh coming down and giving them
[00:29:41.760] this, right? Everyone look at Genesis. I
[00:29:44.240] mean you know you you could go to every
[00:29:45.679] single one particularly the Indian devas
[00:29:47.520] and mahabarata things along those lines.
[00:29:50.960] Um so it it it then pushes um the social
[00:29:56.960] socioultural issues up front. Now you're
[00:30:01.600] just people are saying well what's
[00:30:03.919] what's reality? What's true? And you
[00:30:06.799] know does civilization break down?
[00:30:10.000] uh uh you know most
[00:30:14.640] uh sociologists
[00:30:17.919] and uh I don't know demographers will
[00:30:20.480] tell you that if you have a 25% you know
[00:30:24.159] like uh if 25% of your population either
[00:30:28.240] becomes sick, ill, dead or just
[00:30:30.960] disassociates for some reason or other.
[00:30:34.080] Civilization can be on the verge of
[00:30:35.919] collapse. Food production shuts down.
[00:30:37.760] Everything shuts down. Um so I think
[00:30:42.000] when you know there was a study done in
[00:30:44.640] 2004 I know Hal put off talks about this
[00:30:47.200] study he was involved in it u put
[00:30:49.279] together by a group uh psychologist
[00:30:53.760] religious people things along those
[00:30:55.440] lines and and the question was posed to
[00:30:57.360] them you know what would happen if the
[00:30:59.440] government came out and admitted
[00:31:02.080] uh you know there was disclosure and
[00:31:03.840] admitted all this and uh at the
[00:31:07.600] beginning of uh this is what how is
[00:31:10.159] telling me in the beginning of the the
[00:31:11.840] conference they all agreed the
[00:31:14.320] government should come out everybody has
[00:31:15.840] a right to know after three three days
[00:31:18.799] of the conference every single one of
[00:31:20.559] them said absolutely not because they
[00:31:23.200] gained it they gained it they gained it
[00:31:26.000] and and you know this is what we call
[00:31:28.720] you know what sociologists would call
[00:31:31.200] and you know industrial psychologists
[00:31:33.360] would call a wicked problem a wicked
[00:31:35.440] problem is something that it's a problem
[00:31:37.519] that is
[00:31:39.600] a lot of elements to it and it's
[00:31:42.480] generally uh uh unresolvable. The it's
[00:31:47.360] like poverty, world poverty. How do you
[00:31:48.960] solve world poverty? Well, you can game
[00:31:50.559] it and you can go and sit into a room
[00:31:52.320] and it's a wicked problem and you list
[00:31:54.640] all the things you would have to do and
[00:31:56.240] there's all these political things,
[00:31:57.600] social things, cultural things,
[00:31:59.600] financial things and there's just so
[00:32:01.919] many things that you need to do to do
[00:32:05.200] this correctly that it almost becomes
[00:32:07.600] impossible. So, you have to take it one
[00:32:10.399] thing at a time. Well, this particular
[00:32:13.279] problem UAP
[00:32:15.519] is what I call the UR problem, right? is
[00:32:18.240] the wicked problem. It is like beyond
[00:32:20.720] anything. We we don't have a taxonomy.
[00:32:23.600] We don't have an ontology to even speak
[00:32:25.760] of this. Don't have a lexicon. We don't
[00:32:28.399] know anything. This this thing shows
[00:32:30.159] itself when it wants to show itself. It
[00:32:32.399] tells us very very little about it. So,
[00:32:35.919] we're totally in the dark.
[00:32:38.480] So, what do you do? There was a
[00:32:40.799] wonderful uh uh book uh book series of
[00:32:44.159] books that were written called the
[00:32:45.519] threebody problem. And and uh um I I
[00:32:48.799] always tell people that if you're
[00:32:49.840] interested in science fiction, these are
[00:32:51.200] well well worthwhile. But Netflix did a
[00:32:53.919] a Netflix show called The Threebody
[00:32:56.399] Problem. And I I urge people to look at
[00:32:58.880] it because I think it's a very good uh
[00:33:01.919] uh rendering of what would happen if we
[00:33:04.880] did have this closure. Um and uh you
[00:33:07.679] know, and there are there are groups of
[00:33:09.279] people who basically disassociate. They
[00:33:11.360] just said, "Well, they're going to start
[00:33:13.120] worshiping these these aliens who are
[00:33:15.200] coming to our planet, you know, actually
[00:33:16.880] to take over the planet and kill
[00:33:18.240] everybody." Um, not that I want to spoil
[00:33:21.760] anything. Uh, but they totally
[00:33:23.919] dissociate, right? And they go someplace
[00:33:25.679] else. And then you have other people,
[00:33:27.440] you know, these preers go into the
[00:33:29.200] wilderness and they're going to they're
[00:33:30.720] just going to do everything else. So, it
[00:33:33.279] becomes very very problematic for
[00:33:35.120] society, right? So, and I think that's
[00:33:37.200] it. And then this whole idea of limited
[00:33:39.039] disclosure. Well, the president comes
[00:33:40.559] out and the president says, "Well, you
[00:33:41.919] know, we're not alone on the planet or
[00:33:44.159] on the universe and there are other
[00:33:45.919] things here." But you you can't just say
[00:33:49.600] that. The president can't just say that
[00:33:51.840] because it it will beg a million
[00:33:54.480] questions and then the narrative isn't
[00:33:56.880] complete. Now, the narrative isn't
[00:33:59.120] complete even with catastrophic, you
[00:34:00.960] know, disclosure, but even with a
[00:34:02.320] limited disclosure, you're stuck with
[00:34:04.799] who's going to fill the remainder of
[00:34:06.399] that narrative. And then you're looking
[00:34:08.399] at who actually would. Joe Rogan would,
[00:34:12.560] you know, Sean Hannity would. Um, uh,
[00:34:15.119] and I'm not just trying to go to the
[00:34:16.720] right here, but, um, um, you know,
[00:34:18.720] Tucker Carlson, the every single person
[00:34:21.679] who's had an abduction experience with
[00:34:23.440] Philipin. And you're going to get all
[00:34:25.520] this information that creates this new
[00:34:28.399] narrative, and none of it is really
[00:34:30.960] accurate because nobody knows the
[00:34:33.119] answer. So people make stuff up and you
[00:34:36.000] end up with new a new religion so to
[00:34:38.159] speak and out of that morass of of
[00:34:42.240] opinions that you're going to be getting
[00:34:45.200] is going to come up something that may
[00:34:46.560] be really ugly, you know, and I think
[00:34:48.399] people I think the government knows that
[00:34:50.159] and and and and plus the government
[00:34:53.839] doesn't know it really doesn't know what
[00:34:55.679] to say. It it has no response to what do
[00:34:58.000] we do about this?
[00:35:00.480] They can't. They've been studying this
[00:35:02.640] for 80 years. It's it's like they don't
[00:35:04.240] know what the hell it is. Um the you
[00:35:07.599] know we're living in you know in 21st
[00:35:09.920] century physics right
[00:35:12.560] if if this phenomenon if this UAP
[00:35:16.240] phenomenon is 25th century physics what
[00:35:20.240] I mean can you blame science can you
[00:35:22.480] blame anybody I mean for looking at this
[00:35:24.560] and saying what the hell do we do with
[00:35:26.000] it? Do we create a problem where there
[00:35:28.160] isn't a problem? Because right now,
[00:35:32.240] NHI, the phenomenon, UAP does not
[00:35:35.680] impinge on most people's lives. And I
[00:35:39.599] say most people, I'm talking about 95%
[00:35:41.760] of the world population. It just
[00:35:43.599] doesn't. It impinges on the military. It
[00:35:47.280] impinges on people like me, you know,
[00:35:49.920] maybe 5% of the population, 10% of the
[00:35:53.280] population. It doesn't
[00:35:55.680] they don't know what they don't know
[00:35:57.040] what to do with it. They don't know
[00:35:58.160] where to go or they go to Congress with
[00:35:59.440] it. Congress doesn't know what to do
[00:36:00.720] about it. Congress is just as befuddled,
[00:36:02.880] you know, as everybody else is. So, it's
[00:36:05.200] a conundrum. It really truly is. And I'm
[00:36:07.119] not against disclosure at all. I'm just
[00:36:09.440] I'm hoping that somebody can find a way
[00:36:11.760] to do it that's responsible that we know
[00:36:14.960] that we're not going to be setting off
[00:36:16.400] or opening up a Pandora's box. And this
[00:36:19.119] is something that's discussed quite
[00:36:20.560] frequently among people in the UFO
[00:36:22.320] community. Not just me saying this. It's
[00:36:25.119] um
[00:36:26.800] uh very serious people have issues with
[00:36:29.520] this. Uh my dear friend Chris Melon, you
[00:36:32.640] know, you know, he's a big fan of
[00:36:34.480] disclosure and he makes I think
[00:36:37.359] wonderful arguments, brilliant arguments
[00:36:39.200] on this and I don't disagree with them.
[00:36:41.680] Uh I'm just not sure of the outcome.
[00:36:44.400] Just not sure.
[00:36:47.200] No one, by the way, you know, has done
[00:36:49.440] more, you know, to push disclosure than
[00:36:52.880] like Lou Alzando and and Chris Melon and
[00:36:56.079] now Dave Grush, you know, um these guys
[00:36:58.880] are these guys are out there and you
[00:37:01.599] know, and they're doing this all the
[00:37:03.040] time to push this because in a way, I
[00:37:05.839] mean, their point is very well taken. I
[00:37:07.599] mean, you can't deny reality to people.
[00:37:11.280] you can't say uh oh gee I'm not going to
[00:37:13.440] tell you what's real you know because
[00:37:15.040] it's too scary you know
[00:37:18.079] I just tend to be more cautious about it
[00:37:20.079] and you know I'm not against it coming
[00:37:22.000] out I'm just going to hopefully find a
[00:37:24.160] way to do it where it does it creates
[00:37:25.920] this the problems are minimal right um I
[00:37:30.720] always go back to that that quote from a
[00:37:32.480] TS Elliott poem in the four quartets one
[00:37:34.720] of his more famous poems where he said
[00:37:36.960] you know mankind cannot bear too much
[00:37:39.760] reality a humankind cannot bear much
[00:37:42.079] reality and and I think there's a lot to
[00:37:44.640] be said for that. Uh we have to be
[00:37:47.280] careful. Some people aren't well
[00:37:50.480] tethered to the ground and you throw
[00:37:53.920] something like this at them and you say,
[00:37:56.800] well, for instance, let me give you the
[00:37:58.079] example like if you talk to a quantum
[00:38:00.160] physicist and you said to him or her,
[00:38:04.880] tell me what quantum mechanics says
[00:38:06.400] about reality. And they'll tell you,
[00:38:08.480] they'll talk to you about superp
[00:38:09.440] positioning. They'll talk you about
[00:38:10.640] entanglement. They'll talk about all
[00:38:12.079] kinds of stuff. But they'll also tell
[00:38:13.760] you like, well, you know, space is made
[00:38:17.119] up of emptiness. It's just empty. And
[00:38:18.960] oh, by the way, you know, uh, your
[00:38:20.640] reality is is really based on
[00:38:22.160] probabilities
[00:38:23.839] and chance and not, you know, there's no
[00:38:28.320] there's no, you know, mechanistic way
[00:38:30.720] this is going to happen. We don't know
[00:38:32.240] what's going to happen at any one given
[00:38:33.920] point. It just happens as it goes.
[00:38:37.119] But you also when you look at it um you
[00:38:40.400] know they'll also tell you that you know
[00:38:42.880] Chris Leato and and Jun Simovan are just
[00:38:46.079] two big masses of spinning electrons
[00:38:48.400] talking to one another and everything
[00:38:50.240] around them including the pictures
[00:38:51.680] behind you the books behind me the desk
[00:38:54.240] headphones. They're just they're just
[00:38:56.720] empty space basically and made up of
[00:38:58.960] electrons protons neutrons quarks muons
[00:39:03.280] but most of that is empty space. So what
[00:39:06.000] does that mean about us? What does that
[00:39:07.920] say about our reality? What does that
[00:39:09.599] say? Uh, you know, I mean, we're
[00:39:11.040] physical because of, you know, opposing
[00:39:14.960] electron forces and maybe the strong
[00:39:16.800] nuclear force. It pushes us together in
[00:39:19.040] these faces and these bodies and this
[00:39:21.359] desk and what have you. But when you
[00:39:22.960] look behind it, when you look at it
[00:39:24.880] closely,
[00:39:26.880] this is this is just energy patterns.
[00:39:29.680] And so are we just energy patterns? than
[00:39:32.720] if we are just energy patterns. What the
[00:39:35.359] hell does that mean? I I don't know.
[00:39:38.160] It's it's uh you know, I don't stay up
[00:39:40.640] at night anymore thinking about it, but
[00:39:42.640] you know, sometimes I do. Yeah. I think
[00:39:45.359] we just take for granted that we that we
[00:39:48.560] know so much and like you just mentioned
[00:39:50.960] there, uh we just know so little, you
[00:39:54.000] know, we we don't know why radiation
[00:39:55.839] happens. Like no one knows why anything
[00:39:59.599] it radiates, why we have radiation at
[00:40:02.560] all. Like there's no explanation in
[00:40:05.200] physics. We don't know really what
[00:40:08.400] matter is. You said electrons and
[00:40:10.160] protons interacting with each other, but
[00:40:12.560] then when you try and actually find out
[00:40:14.079] what that is, even in quantum mechanics,
[00:40:16.079] it's all different fields, right? So
[00:40:18.160] it's just fields of energy. Yeah. And
[00:40:21.040] you know and and the problem with UAP in
[00:40:23.119] general and this phenomenon in general
[00:40:24.720] and NHI it's it's multidisciplinary. I
[00:40:27.680] mean it it it covers science but it also
[00:40:30.720] covers sociology and it covers religion
[00:40:33.760] and and you're into biology. Biology is
[00:40:36.240] a whole another ball game. And you have
[00:40:37.839] these things these academic disciplines
[00:40:39.920] that are stacked on one another. You
[00:40:41.839] don't have people that are um
[00:40:46.800] uh we don't have scientists that are are
[00:40:48.960] are are that able that talk about it all
[00:40:51.599] together. In other words, we have to
[00:40:53.280] look at it individually and we we look
[00:40:55.200] at it, you know, uh at peace meal and
[00:40:57.760] everything's siloed.
[00:41:00.079] So, and again, you know, our brain, you
[00:41:04.079] know, isn't really capable of doing it.
[00:41:07.040] I mean our the visual spectrum, our
[00:41:09.040] hearing spectrum very limited, right?
[00:41:11.359] It's just limited as one one certain
[00:41:13.119] area, right? We can't see outside of it.
[00:41:15.119] Some animals can see outside of it and
[00:41:17.119] we know they can. And then our level of
[00:41:19.280] consciousness, you know, we're at a
[00:41:20.480] level of self-consciousness,
[00:41:22.319] but um uh how conscious are we? I mean,
[00:41:26.319] are we is our consciousness evolving?
[00:41:28.319] Like our bodies are evolving and our
[00:41:29.839] bodies are evolving
[00:41:31.920] slowly, but they're evolving. Well, do
[00:41:35.200] we need to reach a state of cosmic
[00:41:37.119] consciousness um
[00:41:40.079] before we're able to understand part of
[00:41:41.760] this or do we have to transition and by
[00:41:44.240] that I mean dying and moving into
[00:41:46.319] another state um uh another form another
[00:41:50.000] dimension. So
[00:41:53.119] you you know everybody used to think
[00:41:55.680] that UAP were extraterrestrial but
[00:41:57.520] nowadays most people most ufologists or
[00:42:00.079] people that study this and most
[00:42:01.280] scientists that study this will tell you
[00:42:03.119] well it's probably a combination of
[00:42:05.359] extraterrestrial interdimensional and
[00:42:07.680] maybe a little bit of crypto you know uh
[00:42:09.680] cryptoaterrestrial or ultraterrestrial
[00:42:11.839] where these these these NHI are living
[00:42:14.000] on our planet and have been living on
[00:42:15.440] our planet with us you know we just
[00:42:17.200] haven't seen them and they have the
[00:42:19.359] ability to cloak themselves
[00:42:21.680] uh this Arabic uh you know concept of
[00:42:24.720] the jin it's always fascinated me you
[00:42:27.119] know because it's um um um is very close
[00:42:30.480] to
[00:42:32.079] um you know uh what you know the
[00:42:34.480] Christian religion would call angels uh
[00:42:37.280] you know uh and um although the u
[00:42:40.560] pre-Islamic religions did have you know
[00:42:43.359] angels and and jin and stuff like that
[00:42:45.440] and they still kept them you know in the
[00:42:46.880] Quran you can read whole suras about
[00:42:49.680] about jin And but it it's fascinating
[00:42:52.079] and you know you you you see all this
[00:42:53.680] and it's all out there all this this
[00:42:55.599] this
[00:42:57.200] knowledge this is out there and it's
[00:42:58.960] it's it's ethereal and it's anomalous
[00:43:02.160] and but you can't put your arms around
[00:43:04.400] it. You just can't and uh it's hard.
[00:43:08.000] It's just very very hard.
[00:43:10.480] We hear a lot about the negative effects
[00:43:12.720] of disclosure, but have you really
[00:43:15.599] considered I'm sure you have, but the
[00:43:17.920] positive effects, you know, what do you
[00:43:19.440] think disclosure would bring about in
[00:43:21.920] terms of positive change in the world?
[00:43:24.800] Oh, that's an excellent question. And
[00:43:26.240] and this goes back to what I think Chris
[00:43:28.400] Melon and and Lou Alzando talks about
[00:43:30.560] and Gary Nolan and a lot of these guys
[00:43:32.960] and they're absolutely correct about it.
[00:43:34.800] it it it will generate a whole new
[00:43:38.720] series of academic disciplines. I mean
[00:43:40.880] right off the bat if we came out and we
[00:43:44.319] told the scientific establishment this
[00:43:46.720] is real the National Science Foundation
[00:43:49.920] you know uh National Institutes of
[00:43:51.920] Health
[00:43:54.319] every major university would start
[00:43:56.960] programs on trying to figure out what
[00:43:58.960] this is. I mean, we would have this
[00:44:00.880] immense
[00:44:02.560] uh amount of uh research money and
[00:44:05.599] funding going to discover what this is.
[00:44:08.240] And I think in some respects that would,
[00:44:10.240] you know, uh that may be able to push us
[00:44:12.319] forward in so many different ways. Um uh
[00:44:16.480] it would take I think I think
[00:44:19.839] consciousness studies
[00:44:22.000] uh uh and particularly pl I mean quantum
[00:44:25.200] mechanic studies. I mean the money would
[00:44:27.040] be pouring into that and people would be
[00:44:29.040] very interested in it and it also
[00:44:30.720] changed enormously changed religion and
[00:44:34.079] our view of the world itself. People
[00:44:36.319] would be questioning reality all the
[00:44:38.160] time but I think it's going to be a
[00:44:40.160] mixed bag. You know it's I think there's
[00:44:42.800] going to be a ton of positive effects.
[00:44:44.720] The biggest one being we get to know our
[00:44:46.720] real history, right? We get to know who
[00:44:49.440] we really are. It's our birthright to
[00:44:51.280] know what the truth is. And this is I
[00:44:53.359] think is what you know with a lot of pro
[00:44:55.359] people who proisclosure people are
[00:44:57.520] saying it's it's nobody's right to you
[00:45:00.160] know it's not the government's right to
[00:45:01.680] say you I'm not going to tell you this
[00:45:05.280] uh because you know we're afraid of what
[00:45:07.359] it might do.
[00:45:09.599] Sorry but you know I'm a human being. I
[00:45:12.319] have a right to know what kind of world
[00:45:13.599] I live in, you know, and and so for me,
[00:45:17.040] and I know I'm sort of talking out of
[00:45:18.480] both sides of my mouth here, but but
[00:45:20.880] there the elements here are, you know,
[00:45:22.640] it's it's problematic. This is highly
[00:45:24.240] problematic.
[00:45:25.760] So, yeah, a lot of good things,
[00:45:29.680] maybe some bad things, but you know, but
[00:45:34.160] but then again, I mean, the the
[00:45:36.400] phenomenon itself isn't helping, is it?
[00:45:39.040] Um there's a a a group of people who
[00:45:42.240] believe that the reason why we don't
[00:45:44.000] have disclosure is because the phenomena
[00:45:46.160] is actually controlling it. It's
[00:45:48.319] basically saying, "No, you're not going
[00:45:49.760] to do that." And and um but then again,
[00:45:52.880] disclosure, I mean, you and I are
[00:45:55.200] talking about this, right? You know,
[00:45:58.160] it's real. I know it's real. I don't
[00:46:00.160] know whether you do or not. I don't know
[00:46:01.760] that much about your beliefs on this
[00:46:03.119] issue, but it is absolutely and totally
[00:46:05.040] real. If you sit down and look at the
[00:46:06.640] evidence and you saw the evidence, talk
[00:46:09.359] to these pilots, you know, talk to Dave,
[00:46:11.200] you know, Dave Forever, he saw these
[00:46:12.880] visually saw them. He's not making this
[00:46:15.599] [ __ ] up, you know, and and he's dead
[00:46:18.000] serious. And uh and
[00:46:21.760] and then when you talk to other people
[00:46:23.760] uh who've had these experiences, very
[00:46:25.760] very serious people. Oh my god. I mean,
[00:46:28.720] it's Yeah. And that changed my view.
[00:46:32.160] Yeah. that changed my view is is was
[00:46:34.160] initially David Fraver to look into it
[00:46:36.800] and it was so compelling to me and then
[00:46:39.760] just doing the channel you know drawn
[00:46:41.760] into it you know I never wanted to be
[00:46:43.280] like in investigating UAPs or UFOs but
[00:46:46.640] I'm just so curious about it and then I
[00:46:48.560] kept talking to credible person after
[00:46:50.640] credible person you know why would this
[00:46:52.079] person lie I just did an interview with
[00:46:54.079] Dr. Rogers Dr. Greg Rogers, he was a
[00:46:56.720] NASA flight doc, you know, for many
[00:46:59.520] years. And he saw a video actually of a
[00:47:03.040] craft in a hanger with US Air Force on
[00:47:05.040] it doing tests back in 1992, you know,
[00:47:08.400] and I just could not I cannot think of
[00:47:11.359] any reason why why he would lie about
[00:47:13.760] that seeing that video, you know, that
[00:47:15.680] the US actually has craft.
[00:47:18.240] Yeah, the US has craft. Then the US, you
[00:47:20.319] know, don't forget stealth came out what
[00:47:22.079] I mean stealth was on the drawing boards
[00:47:23.839] in what 70s and then it really was out
[00:47:26.560] in the 80s and and so you're looking and
[00:47:29.599] saying what's new? Oh, hell. I mean, you
[00:47:32.560] know, they they have been exper
[00:47:34.079] experimenting with, you know, all kinds
[00:47:35.920] of different propulsion systems, very
[00:47:37.520] advanced systems, probably anti-gravity
[00:47:40.160] um uh uh systems. So you know if if you
[00:47:44.000] have a downed craft
[00:47:46.560] and you don't understand the craft, you
[00:47:49.280] don't understand the technology. So
[00:47:51.599] you're looking at the craft, you can
[00:47:52.960] extrapolate a lot of things from that
[00:47:54.720] craft. You can take some of the material
[00:47:56.480] from the craft and look at it and study
[00:47:58.079] it and say, "Wow, okay, you know, uh
[00:48:00.560] maybe we could do this or maybe we can
[00:48:02.240] do that." And that pushes science
[00:48:03.599] forward a little bit, right? You still
[00:48:05.040] may not understand the craft itself. I
[00:48:07.280] had one person tell me
[00:48:09.760] who was in a no said well the craft is
[00:48:11.680] actually basically alive it's a li
[00:48:14.319] living thing and that the
[00:48:17.680] the entities that drive the craft
[00:48:21.040] actually become part of the craft
[00:48:23.599] they're they're sort of robotic in and
[00:48:25.599] of themselves and then they merge with
[00:48:27.280] the craft and then that's how these
[00:48:28.960] things fly so or they no I shouldn't
[00:48:31.440] even say fly that's how they operate
[00:48:33.599] right because we don't know whether
[00:48:34.640] they're flying or not and they become
[00:48:38.319] they become these these entities. It's
[00:48:41.359] like these orbs. You see these orbs all
[00:48:43.040] over the place, right? And and there's
[00:48:44.720] or orbs have been around for forever.
[00:48:47.040] But now you're seeing much many many
[00:48:48.880] more orbs showing up in different
[00:48:50.559] places. I've seen orbs with faces in
[00:48:52.480] them. I've seen orbs um uh change
[00:48:56.000] colors. I've seen orbs um well I haven't
[00:48:59.200] seen this particular type of orb but an
[00:49:00.960] orb you know that lands and then gets
[00:49:03.920] bigger and then something crawls out of
[00:49:06.160] it. I mean you
[00:49:10.960] people that are telling me this are
[00:49:12.400] telling me this in a classified setting
[00:49:13.920] and they're telling me this
[00:49:16.640] and they're not they're not lying. They
[00:49:18.640] have no reason to lie to me. I'm not in
[00:49:20.880] any position or authority, you know, and
[00:49:24.480] and and they're just disturbed by this
[00:49:26.960] as I am disturbed by listening to it
[00:49:30.640] because what it does is it just tells
[00:49:32.960] you we live in the strangest damn place.
[00:49:36.559] I mean, it's just beyond strange. Uh,
[00:49:40.559] and we haven't even tapped into probably
[00:49:43.839] 90%. Nobody knows what dark energy is.
[00:49:46.079] Nobody knows what dark matter is. We
[00:49:47.520] know it. We think we know it exists.
[00:49:50.720] We we don't know how, you know, most of
[00:49:52.319] the medicines we take, we really don't
[00:49:54.000] know how that they work. You know, you
[00:49:56.160] know, we we you know, if you took an
[00:49:58.240] anti-depressant, I don't, but if you did
[00:50:00.640] take one, I mean, the doctors sort of
[00:50:02.240] have a general idea. You know, it's
[00:50:03.839] maybe a serotonin uptake, maybe it's
[00:50:05.440] this, maybe it's that, but they're not
[00:50:06.880] really sure how that all that works, you
[00:50:08.319] know, but they know it does. I mean, it
[00:50:10.160] does have an effect. So, we we're sort
[00:50:13.760] of primitive and we like to think we're
[00:50:15.359] not, but we are.
[00:50:18.319] So, I don't know if that answered your
[00:50:19.839] question. Yeah, you've looked into it as
[00:50:22.640] well and I I hear this like Diana Poka
[00:50:26.319] interviewed her and in her perspective
[00:50:28.960] is that it's from a religious angle and
[00:50:31.359] then Jacqu Valet, you talked to him
[00:50:33.200] right from the beginning where he talks
[00:50:35.200] about control systems. Um, can you or
[00:50:39.440] have you determined any sort of
[00:50:42.160] motivation for the phenomenon? You know,
[00:50:44.640] why it's here? Is is it directly related
[00:50:46.720] to us in some manner?
[00:50:50.160] Uh, excellent question. Um, you know
[00:50:53.359] what Diana says, yeah, I believe that.
[00:50:55.680] What Valet says, yeah, I believe that. I
[00:50:57.599] I I what I'm saying is I I I don't
[00:51:00.640] disbelieve any of them. And and and uh
[00:51:02.559] and I think they all make these great
[00:51:04.240] great points. Um what if you looked at
[00:51:07.920] these light motifs that run through the
[00:51:11.520] phenomenon you know it always comes down
[00:51:13.920] to you know these beings
[00:51:17.680] are are if they have any message at all
[00:51:20.160] they're saying it's has to do with you
[00:51:22.480] know nuclear energy and climate change
[00:51:25.119] right that seems to be the two primary
[00:51:27.040] things right um you know don't screw up
[00:51:29.440] the planet is essentially what they're
[00:51:31.200] saying uh uh or they're not saying it
[00:51:34.000] but they're sort of showing you in a
[00:51:35.680] way, right? Uh so you look at that and
[00:51:37.839] you go, okay, uh that part of it you
[00:51:39.920] sort of get, but it's also
[00:51:42.400] um it has a very strong disruptive
[00:51:45.200] quality, right? And this is what Jacques
[00:51:46.960] gets into is as a control mechanism. If
[00:51:49.680] you look at the early Greek mystery
[00:51:51.599] schools and Roman mystery schools,
[00:51:54.319] you know, they would put people in caves
[00:51:55.920] and, you know, be in there for three
[00:51:57.920] days without food or water and people
[00:51:59.200] would hallucinate and they come out and
[00:52:00.480] they come out changed people. And
[00:52:02.160] essentially what it would be, they they
[00:52:03.599] would tap into something they normally
[00:52:05.440] would never tap into in their normal
[00:52:07.760] daily quotidian lives, right? You know,
[00:52:09.760] they they just, you know, and all of a
[00:52:11.599] sudden they they have a mystical
[00:52:13.119] experience and they come out and they
[00:52:14.400] realize that the world is much broader
[00:52:18.480] and and deeper than they ever had
[00:52:20.880] before. And I think
[00:52:23.359] this could be looked at as sort of an
[00:52:25.440] initiation, right? Uh something that's
[00:52:27.520] highly disruptive.
[00:52:29.520] um uh and it's also has these
[00:52:31.760] sociological effects uh because what
[00:52:33.920] happens when you see a UFO what happens
[00:52:35.760] when you have these experiences it does
[00:52:38.000] change you and I don't I don't think
[00:52:40.800] it's
[00:52:43.040] unusual
[00:52:45.280] as as we progress that this is becoming
[00:52:48.880] more of a topic of discussion and that
[00:52:50.960] people are taking it seriously and that
[00:52:52.720] we have many many um scientists now that
[00:52:56.000] are getting into this and taking it very
[00:52:57.680] seriously and realize that It's actually
[00:52:59.520] there's there's truth to this. Um, and
[00:53:02.559] they're trying to get to that truth.
[00:53:05.280] Only problem with all that is
[00:53:08.400] the truth is so woowoo.
[00:53:11.440] So, as Jock likes to talk about it is so
[00:53:15.119] absurd.
[00:53:16.720] Absolutely absurd. I mean, going back to
[00:53:19.040] my experience, I mean, look, you know,
[00:53:21.599] it there's no rhyme or reason to it. It
[00:53:24.000] it's it's that's that's why I don't like
[00:53:25.200] to call it an abduction experience and
[00:53:26.880] and why I'm sort of mad about it. It's
[00:53:28.800] like, you know, screw you. You know what
[00:53:31.200] I mean? You you throw this crap at me
[00:53:33.440] and you lay it at my feet and then I'm
[00:53:35.520] supposed to figure this out. I don't
[00:53:37.440] have a I don't have a guide book, you
[00:53:39.599] know? When we're all I mean, we're all
[00:53:41.520] born on the planet, right? Without an
[00:53:43.119] instruction manual. I get that. And then
[00:53:45.520] we create religions. we, you know, we we
[00:53:47.680] we create order because order gives us
[00:53:50.319] some type of stability and it distracts
[00:53:52.880] us from really looking at the void,
[00:53:55.119] right? Because there isn't anything else
[00:53:56.480] out there. I mean, when you look at the
[00:53:57.839] meaning of life and you're trying to
[00:54:00.000] figure that out and because you're born
[00:54:02.240] and you know you're going to die, right?
[00:54:03.760] You get to a certain age and you go
[00:54:05.599] [ __ ] you know, our life is, you know,
[00:54:07.119] in between these two points. That's
[00:54:09.760] frightening and it's frightening to
[00:54:11.280] children and it's frightening to
[00:54:12.400] everybody because you don't know where
[00:54:13.680] you're going afterwards. you don't know
[00:54:15.040] where the hell you came from. And then
[00:54:17.119] you throw this UAP phenomenon in the
[00:54:19.200] middle of all this stuff.
[00:54:21.760] So where do you take solace? You know,
[00:54:24.319] you take usually you take solace in
[00:54:26.079] science and religion, right? And but in
[00:54:28.800] this particular case, science and
[00:54:30.319] religion have no answers. You know, they
[00:54:32.800] may have, you know, guideposts and sort
[00:54:36.319] of saying, well, maybe it's a little bit
[00:54:37.680] of this or maybe it's a little bit of
[00:54:38.960] that, but you're sort of left on your
[00:54:41.119] own. If you're a serious thinker, I I
[00:54:43.520] believe you're sort of left on your own.
[00:54:46.400] And that's hard. And that's another
[00:54:48.720] thing, too. I mean, I had one one fell,
[00:54:51.760] a dear friend of mine, scientist,
[00:54:55.599] we had a we started to the stars, and he
[00:54:59.040] he was invited. We had these long
[00:55:01.440] conversations and uh and he was very
[00:55:04.160] heavily involved in this uh uh in the
[00:55:06.880] medical side and uh and he looked at me
[00:55:09.839] and he said, "You know, disclosure
[00:55:12.960] means scaring
[00:55:15.200] seven year olds."
[00:55:17.280] Now, you have children. I mean, what the
[00:55:19.599] hell do you tell them? I had a a
[00:55:22.160] psychologist friend of mine um at the
[00:55:25.520] agency asked me if I would speak to her
[00:55:27.440] teenage daughter because her daughter
[00:55:30.079] was fascinated with UAP and UFOs. And I
[00:55:33.119] said no. And I said I said because if I
[00:55:36.400] she asked me a good 14-year-old question
[00:55:39.200] and 14-year-olds are pretty smart and I
[00:55:42.000] said I'm not going to lie to her. I'm
[00:55:44.480] gonna tell her, you know, this is not,
[00:55:46.880] you know, this is not ET putting his
[00:55:48.960] finger to your head and going, "Ouch." I
[00:55:51.040] said, "This is a hell of a lot
[00:55:52.240] different." And it's not just like the,
[00:55:55.040] you know, the end of uh with the Close
[00:55:57.599] Encounters of the Third Kind where a
[00:55:59.119] spaceship lands and, you know, we're
[00:56:01.520] flashing signals at it and all of a
[00:56:03.200] sudden these cute little white beings,
[00:56:05.359] translucent white beings come out, you
[00:56:07.520] know, with big smiles in your face and
[00:56:09.040] they all look like Casper the Ghost. No,
[00:56:11.760] that's not what it is. these things are
[00:56:13.839] not. You know, I was talking to Jacques
[00:56:16.240] and I said, I said, "What the hell is
[00:56:18.559] it?" I said, "Are they are they bad?
[00:56:21.040] They good?" And he goes, "The best you
[00:56:23.520] can say is they're they're classically
[00:56:26.720] indifferent. They're not they don't give
[00:56:28.880] a damn one way or the other." And I
[00:56:30.160] think that's exactly the truth. I don't
[00:56:32.240] think they're good. I don't think
[00:56:33.599] they're bad. I just think I think we're
[00:56:37.440] well as Charles Fort said I think I
[00:56:40.960] think they view us as property
[00:56:44.559] and and I think we have to take that
[00:56:46.480] into consideration and that's another
[00:56:48.400] reason about disclosure. So you want to
[00:56:50.480] tell somebody that you want to I have
[00:56:52.559] this list of things you know what I what
[00:56:55.119] I know about UAP and none of it is good.
[00:56:58.960] I mean it it's it's it's good. It's good
[00:57:02.079] in the sense that wow, you know, this
[00:57:04.240] whole different reality opens up, but
[00:57:06.640] it's not good in the sense that this is
[00:57:09.920] a an intelligence
[00:57:13.119] that does act as a control mechanism and
[00:57:15.760] does it can control us. It can dictate
[00:57:19.440] to us. It it doesn't seem to be doing
[00:57:23.040] that, you know, on a daily basis and
[00:57:24.960] affecting people's lives, but it can do
[00:57:26.880] that. And when you give up that that
[00:57:30.400] sovereignty, right, that idea, that free
[00:57:32.880] will, you no longer have free will.
[00:57:35.920] And then you have a eight-year-old
[00:57:38.720] who is petrified, doesn't want to go to
[00:57:40.480] bed at night because he's afraid the
[00:57:41.680] beings are going to come into his room.
[00:57:43.359] And I know people who's who've had that
[00:57:45.280] happen to their children, you know, and
[00:57:47.920] they don't react well to that.
[00:57:50.799] So, what do you do? What do you do with
[00:57:52.799] that? I I don't know. I don't know. It's
[00:57:55.520] it's it's
[00:57:58.000] uh it's a situation
[00:58:00.640] I think that that thankfully in some
[00:58:03.920] respects, you know, it goes unnoticed by
[00:58:06.559] the majority of the population. They
[00:58:08.079] they it this does not impinge on their
[00:58:10.000] lives. I live in this really nice little
[00:58:12.319] community up near in Delaware, you know,
[00:58:13.839] and and you know, it's a very small
[00:58:15.119] town, 3,500 people, and you know, I can
[00:58:17.200] count on my hand the number of people
[00:58:18.640] that are interested in this. And um and
[00:58:21.440] then it would take me forever to count
[00:58:22.880] the number of people that would whose
[00:58:24.240] eyes would glaze over if I ever engaged
[00:58:27.040] him in conversation on this because um
[00:58:31.200] you know there's no there there right I
[00:58:33.760] can't sit there and I can tell him these
[00:58:36.079] stories these narratives like you know
[00:58:37.920] and I can say well this is real and this
[00:58:40.480] is I know because I've seen this you
[00:58:42.160] know I can't tell you it's classified
[00:58:43.440] it's like when Dave Gers came out didn't
[00:58:45.839] come out with papers right he didn't
[00:58:47.440] come out with any documentation he came
[00:58:49.280] out with just saying what he said and it
[00:58:51.920] was all accurate in my opinion. All
[00:58:55.040] accurate. And he says this and people
[00:58:59.440] look at him and some people try to, you
[00:59:01.599] know, you know, like Lou Alzando was the
[00:59:03.920] same way. He got so much crap for doing
[00:59:06.400] what he did. But he's not lying. I was
[00:59:10.400] there. I was with him in the Pentagon.
[00:59:12.319] Saw the same thing. Well, he saw a lot
[00:59:13.920] more than I did, but later on I saw
[00:59:15.440] more. But anyway, he saw this stuff. I
[00:59:18.160] saw some of this stuff. He showed me
[00:59:19.839] some of this stuff. We talked about it.
[00:59:22.400] People aren't lying. It wasn't just him.
[00:59:24.000] It was other people, too. And you know,
[00:59:27.119] top-of-the-line scientists telling you
[00:59:28.720] this, too. But please, you know, you
[00:59:31.680] know, so when these skeptics
[00:59:35.599] come out and and you know, and start
[00:59:37.920] pushing these their own narratives
[00:59:40.400] about, oh, it's this and oh, it's that
[00:59:42.000] and you know, this is some kind of a
[00:59:45.280] problem with software packages. Yeah,
[00:59:47.359] it's just it's such horseshit, you know.
[00:59:49.119] I just I don't engage them anymore. I
[00:59:51.200] used to engage them. I don't bother with
[00:59:52.559] it anymore, you know. I know what I
[00:59:54.000] know. And uh I I I think they have a
[00:59:56.960] role to play. Keep everybody honest, you
[00:59:59.520] know, and I I do that, you know. I And I
[01:00:02.720] see that. But I don't personally engage
[01:00:05.119] with them anymore because I don't I'm
[01:00:07.440] not here to to defend what I believe.
[01:00:09.920] You know, you give either take it with a
[01:00:11.760] grain of salt or you believe it or you
[01:00:14.079] not believe it. I don't care. doesn't
[01:00:15.440] affect my life anymore. It used to, it
[01:00:17.280] doesn't anymore.
[01:00:19.200] What What do you think about like the
[01:00:20.799] idea that Ronald Reagan said, you know,
[01:00:23.599] the famous quote, if there's an
[01:00:24.880] extraterrestrial or outside threat, not
[01:00:27.680] that this is necessarily a threat, like
[01:00:29.359] you said, they seem indifferent, but
[01:00:31.440] what do you think of that idea that it
[01:00:33.760] could, you know, unify the world or
[01:00:36.640] maybe unify humanity so we could move
[01:00:38.799] forward and stop all these crazy wars,
[01:00:40.960] etc.? Well, I think there's there's
[01:00:44.079] definitely
[01:00:45.760] a um an element of truth to that. Maybe
[01:00:49.280] more more truth than not. Uh again, in
[01:00:51.920] the threebody problem, you know, I did a
[01:00:54.640] simultaneous uh podcast, I think it's
[01:00:57.440] during the fourth episode, and I was
[01:00:59.040] talking about um how intelligence
[01:01:02.160] services came together when they knew
[01:01:04.559] this threat was coming and how they
[01:01:06.079] worked together and you know, and what
[01:01:08.000] what how that would happen and what it
[01:01:09.839] would mean. And so yeah, I mean there's
[01:01:11.599] no question I think that people would
[01:01:13.839] would basically
[01:01:16.400] I think the people in I think
[01:01:18.400] populations in general would force
[01:01:20.160] governments to work together uh for the
[01:01:22.640] common good. But again uh you know we're
[01:01:26.960] humans right and there will be every
[01:01:30.240] government will be looking towards an
[01:01:31.839] advantage that they can have with
[01:01:33.839] another government won't. Do the
[01:01:35.920] Russians know about this? Yeah the
[01:01:37.440] Russians have their own program. Uh it
[01:01:39.680] used to be called thread three. Uh uh we
[01:01:42.559] know that and and you know studying
[01:01:44.240] UFOs. Do they have crash saucers? Most
[01:01:46.720] most likely they do. Most likely the
[01:01:48.559] Chinese do too. Um so they have their
[01:01:51.359] own programs. Everybody's France has
[01:01:53.280] their own PR. Italy has their own
[01:01:54.559] programs. A lot of countries have their
[01:01:56.160] own programs. Brazil. Um the problem is
[01:01:59.599] they're all trying to figure out what
[01:02:00.960] everybody else has. So that's where the
[01:02:02.400] national security aspect comes in with
[01:02:04.079] this. This is another reason why where
[01:02:05.839] Lou, you know, took a lot of crap when
[01:02:08.400] he came out and and uh and so did my
[01:02:10.720] company to the stars because we were
[01:02:12.400] saying like, wait a minute, you know,
[01:02:14.559] disclosure is fine, but we do have some
[01:02:16.240] national security aspects here. Um this
[01:02:19.040] this program, this current program, this
[01:02:20.960] legacy program, the deep program, and I
[01:02:22.640] mean it's it's you know, you know, the
[01:02:25.280] security around it is obscene. It's just
[01:02:27.920] not going to be they're not going to
[01:02:29.520] discuss it. They can't because they
[01:02:31.839] don't want if you you tell your friend,
[01:02:33.599] tell an enemy, right? You can't come out
[01:02:35.280] and talk about what you know and what
[01:02:36.799] you don't know. So they leave that alone
[01:02:40.640] and uh and the government leaves that
[01:02:42.480] alone because if you
[01:02:45.440] by happen stance discover a technology
[01:02:49.359] that could control the airspace
[01:02:52.559] and space in general and everything
[01:02:54.640] else, well, you you own the world,
[01:02:56.880] right? And and
[01:02:59.280] somebody was saying to me uh not too
[01:03:01.680] long ago, well, you know, look at all
[01:03:03.359] these wonderful technologies that can
[01:03:04.960] come out,
[01:03:07.119] free energy. You can go on and on and
[01:03:08.799] talk about all these new technologies.
[01:03:10.240] Well, yeah, that's great, but what
[01:03:12.319] happens? I said, what happens when you
[01:03:14.640] have a technology that makes
[01:03:17.280] uh you know uh energy symmetrical that
[01:03:20.720] everybody has it? Well, what's the first
[01:03:23.280] thing a country is going to do? We're
[01:03:25.039] human. we're going to take a weapon
[01:03:26.799] system out of it. Now, we all have the
[01:03:28.880] same weapon system. You know, nobody has
[01:03:31.039] an advantage. You know, everybody has,
[01:03:32.960] you know, the same advantage now because
[01:03:34.400] you're able to develop these um these
[01:03:36.559] craft that, you know, anti-gravity
[01:03:38.000] craft. You can put weapon systems on it
[01:03:39.520] and all the there's a lot to think about
[01:03:44.079] uh about this. And I think that's
[01:03:46.079] another one of the reasons why the
[01:03:47.280] government is very careful about this
[01:03:48.480] and they're careful about the technology
[01:03:50.160] that they may have discovered. I don't
[01:03:51.760] know if they have or have not. Um but
[01:03:54.720] yeah, I mean, you know,
[01:03:57.200] it's not a simple
[01:03:59.680] a simple problem set. I mean, it's it's
[01:04:02.160] it's a difficult problem set. And if it
[01:04:04.640] wasn't for the fact that humans are
[01:04:05.920] humans, I mean, it's just we have a a
[01:04:07.839] nasty side to us. We just do. And um you
[01:04:12.000] know, you can talk to Ticknot Han and
[01:04:14.720] you know, and you know, the Daly Lama,
[01:04:16.400] he'll tell you the same thing. you know,
[01:04:18.720] you know, uh, you know, you look at a a
[01:04:21.440] person like, you know, I hate to use
[01:04:23.119] Hitler, but Stalin is a perfect example.
[01:04:26.160] Uh, you know, Joe McCarthy, you all
[01:04:28.799] these people. I mean, I put them on the
[01:04:30.640] same levels or anything like that, but
[01:04:32.079] nevertheless,
[01:04:34.559] they have a nasty side and and you know,
[01:04:36.960] and so I don't trust, you know, humans
[01:04:40.160] with this. I trust the government. I
[01:04:41.599] really do to a certain extent. I mean,
[01:04:43.200] they they've lied. They've done things
[01:04:45.760] that they shouldn't have done. You know,
[01:04:47.280] even my agency is the, you know, with,
[01:04:48.880] you know, with the uh programs back in
[01:04:50.559] the 60s and 70s were way way over the
[01:04:54.559] top and just awful. But in the end, you
[01:04:58.240] know, they get they get straightened out
[01:05:00.559] and and you know, and and the people
[01:05:02.400] force them to basically maintain, you
[01:05:05.599] know, order and keep in mind the public
[01:05:08.079] good. So, I think government in general,
[01:05:09.599] I have a lot of faith in government. Um,
[01:05:13.520] I I don't I Yeah, go ahead. Sorry. Have
[01:05:16.079] you talked to John Ramirez at all? He's
[01:05:18.880] the other Yeah. CI analyst. Yeah. What
[01:05:21.599] do you think of his his story where he's
[01:05:23.760] invited to uh a meeting essentially and
[01:05:27.280] with high level members as well, you
[01:05:29.599] know, there's no classification markings
[01:05:31.359] and they say that uh believe we're
[01:05:33.760] hybrids or some some uh relation to
[01:05:36.880] that. Yeah, John told me that story. I I
[01:05:43.119] uh I can't get into any of the details
[01:05:45.680] around John and I spoke privately about
[01:05:48.720] that and um there's a
[01:05:52.720] well I just put it I believe yeah I
[01:05:54.480] believe what he said I I there's no
[01:05:56.480] reason for John to you know particularly
[01:05:58.880] talking with me you know what I mean
[01:06:00.319] it's it there's no reason for either of
[01:06:02.079] us to shade anything with one another
[01:06:04.480] and um uh so yeah yeah
[01:06:09.440] Yeah, what he said I I I think what he
[01:06:12.720] said is accurate. That happens. I mean,
[01:06:15.680] even you have some of them as really
[01:06:17.280] highly see John. Well, see, I can't get
[01:06:20.000] into too much detail because um um where
[01:06:23.839] John worked, how John came across makes
[01:06:26.480] sense to me. And what his story was told
[01:06:29.039] to me made sense to me. It fits the
[01:06:32.079] pattern. It's like what Dave Grouch, you
[01:06:33.760] know, said. Yeah. Yeah, that fits the
[01:06:36.079] pattern. Uh I I mean it it make total
[01:06:39.039] sense to me but I can't tell you why.
[01:06:41.760] Okay. And we talked about a lot of
[01:06:43.760] negative um consequences of disclosure
[01:06:47.599] as well as you know potential positive.
[01:06:50.400] How do you think we should move forward?
[01:06:52.640] You know what do you think I should do
[01:06:54.640] as a podcaster and and what are you
[01:06:56.480] working on?
[01:06:58.799] Well, for you as a podcaster, as you
[01:07:01.119] continue to do what you're doing and as
[01:07:02.880] many voices as we can get on this topic,
[01:07:05.119] the better it's going to be to many.
[01:07:07.039] Plus, I do my own podcast with my
[01:07:08.880] company to the stars. Um, you know,
[01:07:11.680] with, you know, I just did one with Tom
[01:07:13.440] Dong and Peter Lenda, and I'll be doing
[01:07:15.599] another one hopefully soon, maybe with
[01:07:17.599] Hal Putoff and, uh, somebody else down
[01:07:19.920] the road. I I prefer doing that as
[01:07:22.319] opposed to being on a podcast because I
[01:07:24.000] get to ask the questions. Um
[01:07:26.640] but but I think it's really really
[01:07:28.160] important for podcasters to keep doing
[01:07:29.839] this and to look at not just UAP to to
[01:07:34.000] go into other areas that related these
[01:07:36.079] these um uh corollary areas like this
[01:07:39.359] wonderful book that just came out the
[01:07:41.359] illustrated guide to DMT
[01:07:44.480] uh um entities. Oh, I mean that's to me
[01:07:48.720] I mean I I I bought the book. I I bought
[01:07:50.799] the Kindle version of the book. I can't
[01:07:52.319] wait to read it. I'm going to start
[01:07:53.520] today and um uh it's it's looking at
[01:07:58.160] other realities and that's the other
[01:07:59.599] thing you want to look at. Uh you want
[01:08:02.000] to maybe get into mysticism and the idea
[01:08:04.319] of a classical versions of mysticism,
[01:08:06.480] the lives of the saints. What did
[01:08:08.400] certain saints see? I'm reading a book
[01:08:10.240] now called um they flew, you know, about
[01:08:13.440] saints who actually levitated um and
[01:08:16.560] they had, you know, hundreds of
[01:08:17.839] witnesses who saw them flying, you know,
[01:08:19.679] I mean. Okay. To me that's that's all
[01:08:22.239] part of this. Um John Alexander likes to
[01:08:25.040] point out he said you know uh he he he
[01:08:27.040] had a slide once he showed me and he had
[01:08:29.759] all these different aspects of you know
[01:08:31.920] psychic phenomena all together you know
[01:08:34.319] with UAP and NHI you know are they
[01:08:36.640] connected are is is this phenomena
[01:08:40.080] connected to near-death experiences um
[01:08:43.040] to life between
[01:08:45.759] life between life and death I mean this
[01:08:48.319] this whole topic Michael Newton
[01:08:50.640] psychologist who wrote a bunch of books
[01:08:52.799] you know, um, journey, uh, journey of
[01:08:55.520] the souls and things along those lines
[01:08:58.000] about what happens when you die and and
[01:09:00.239] you know, you go to these soul groups
[01:09:01.759] and what have you. The whole concept of
[01:09:03.520] reincarnation, how does this all fit in?
[01:09:06.000] I don't know. And and and but it's all
[01:09:08.719] part of it. And uh, so it it's it's a
[01:09:13.279] much much grander
[01:09:15.839] uh uh, subject area than we give it
[01:09:18.159] credit for. you know, it's not just nuts
[01:09:19.920] and bolts and it's not just quantum
[01:09:22.000] mechanics. It's this whole other thing
[01:09:24.319] that's out there and it's all connected
[01:09:26.159] in some form or fashion that to me is
[01:09:29.679] fascinating and I think podcasters
[01:09:32.480] need to do more of that. This open this
[01:09:34.799] up more and also get scientists on too.
[01:09:38.239] You know, we need what William James
[01:09:40.880] called a radical empiricism, right? We
[01:09:42.960] we don't have that now. We have this
[01:09:44.719] box, right? And science looks at the box
[01:09:47.120] and god forbid if they don't understand
[01:09:48.960] something because they end up trivial
[01:09:50.640] triv trivializing it, you know, and it's
[01:09:52.719] and it's really not science, right? A
[01:09:54.800] true scientist is going to look at
[01:09:56.159] something they don't understand and say,
[01:09:58.400] I got to figure that out, right? And I
[01:10:00.400] got to figure what the hell is going on
[01:10:01.760] there, not make fun of it.
[01:10:03.840] Look, what what what I what we're doing,
[01:10:05.840] at least I'm doing with with the to the
[01:10:07.679] stars with Tom Dong and and uh our other
[01:10:10.800] board members and
[01:10:13.440] we're focusing on um education. We tried
[01:10:18.400] very early on. We had a business model.
[01:10:21.040] We have a public benefit corporation. So
[01:10:23.120] about a 10% of our profits usually goes
[01:10:25.600] to public benefit and we do do that,
[01:10:27.760] right? Uh so but we were going to use uh
[01:10:31.840] some of that money to to pursue research
[01:10:34.960] you know um uh into the phenomenon in
[01:10:37.920] general. Well we had a very big surprise
[01:10:40.960] during the pandemic uh when uh some of
[01:10:43.920] our uh big investors it just everything
[01:10:46.080] dried up and we were relying on small
[01:10:48.400] investors. small investors just don't
[01:10:50.000] have the money and and we developed
[01:10:52.239] these uh a couple
[01:10:54.480] relational databases and they're really
[01:10:56.320] cool using some you know forms of AI and
[01:10:59.600] uh uh and we were going to use those to
[01:11:02.159] do a lot of research and farm to
[01:11:03.679] research out to universities things
[01:11:05.040] along those lines but it just the cloud
[01:11:08.640] using the cloud was so expensive it was
[01:11:11.120] just like millions of dollars a year to
[01:11:13.280] do that we just didn't have the money as
[01:11:14.800] a company so we decided to restructure
[01:11:17.360] the company a few years ago and turn it
[01:11:19.199] into an entertainment company in the
[01:11:20.640] hopes that we'll get more we'll get more
[01:11:22.640] money and that money will then go back
[01:11:25.120] into the research. So, we haven't given
[01:11:26.800] up on that at all. Um, we're going to be
[01:11:30.159] doing that. But the entertainment part
[01:11:31.920] is we're we're telling stories and
[01:11:35.040] pushing narratives
[01:11:37.280] because we have access to people
[01:11:40.719] who know this real story. And what we're
[01:11:42.880] trying to do is tell the real story. We
[01:11:45.040] sold the rights, not the rights to, but
[01:11:47.440] the movie rights to or the television
[01:11:49.520] rights to Secret Machines. Our first
[01:11:52.000] trilogy, the the fiction version to um
[01:11:55.760] uh Legendary Pictures. We just uh uh we
[01:12:01.520] probably have a dozen projects we've
[01:12:03.040] sold and they're in various stages of
[01:12:05.040] development. We're very excited about
[01:12:06.800] all of them. Hopefully this year we'll
[01:12:08.800] start seeing more about them. Tom did
[01:12:10.480] Monsters of California, a movie he
[01:12:12.159] directed, which is great. uh that's just
[01:12:14.640] coming out now in the streaming
[01:12:15.920] services. So, we're trying to educate
[01:12:18.400] essentially uh people in that that
[01:12:20.400] level. But hopefully we'll get into the
[01:12:21.920] research too down the road. Yeah, I get
[01:12:24.560] a lot of comments or when I have people
[01:12:26.480] on like Dr. Rogers, he he had written a
[01:12:28.960] book back in 95 actually and and well,
[01:12:32.320] as soon as he came out last month, his
[01:12:35.120] publisher pulled the book actually. So,
[01:12:36.880] he went to contact in the desert, talked
[01:12:38.880] about it, actually came out with a
[01:12:40.640] story, and then his publisher pulled the
[01:12:43.360] book. But I'll get comments saying, "Oh,
[01:12:46.400] it's another person trying to sell a
[01:12:48.000] book or another person trying to cash in
[01:12:50.880] on the UA UFO podcast circuit." And I'm
[01:12:54.159] just I'm saying, "Where is the money?"
[01:12:56.000] You know, where's all this cash flowing
[01:12:57.679] in? It seems like that's one of the
[01:12:59.120] biggest issues is, you know, it's not
[01:13:00.960] mainstream enough really to generate any
[01:13:03.520] sort of real cash to to really funnel a
[01:13:06.159] full industry. No, you're absolutely
[01:13:08.719] right. And um people who say things like
[01:13:11.120] that, it's mean-spirited. It really
[01:13:13.520] truly is. I mean I
[01:13:16.880] in the beginning there were some really
[01:13:19.360] extraordinary
[01:13:21.280] narratives that came out and some very
[01:13:23.760] odd books that came out and I you know I
[01:13:26.960] used to discount them. I don't do that
[01:13:29.199] anymore. Um weird
[01:13:32.640] with the capital W has taken on a whole
[01:13:35.120] new meaning in my life. I I I I I just
[01:13:39.920] you you can't I I you you can't tell me
[01:13:43.440] anything that's too weird and you can't
[01:13:45.920] tell me anything that I I I wouldn't say
[01:13:48.880] well that's fascinating. I don't know if
[01:13:51.040] I believe it completely but I'm not
[01:13:53.199] going to discount it and I don't do that
[01:13:54.719] anymore. One of them is the topic of
[01:13:57.199] milabs military abductions.
[01:13:59.920] I have a friend of mine um le Melinda
[01:14:02.239] Leslie this wonderful person who had a
[01:14:05.120] terrible experience and you know with
[01:14:07.600] that and she told me her story and you
[01:14:09.280] know you can't listen to her without
[01:14:11.360] saying you know this this person is is
[01:14:13.679] not lying to me and I don't think she's
[01:14:15.760] imagining things either but I don't know
[01:14:17.600] how to explain her her predicament and
[01:14:19.840] she's not the only one and then there
[01:14:21.440] are other other ones that come up too
[01:14:23.600] now there are some you know like well I
[01:14:25.600] was taken when I was seven years old and
[01:14:27.040] trained as a pilot you know in the air
[01:14:28.800] force training you know, all this kind
[01:14:30.400] of stuff. And well, that's I again, I
[01:14:33.520] don't discount it, but at the same time,
[01:14:35.040] I just, you know, I don't give it a lot
[01:14:38.000] of credence, but
[01:14:40.320] And you must have been proud from your
[01:14:42.159] to the stars academy, right? I mean,
[01:14:43.920] that seems like it really broke the
[01:14:46.640] story wide open, at least from from my
[01:14:49.280] perspective.
[01:14:51.120] Yeah, it did to a certain extent. And
[01:14:53.120] and um very very proud of that. And you
[01:14:55.840] know, I'm very proud that Tom Tom Dong
[01:14:59.440] took it the way he did. When I first met
[01:15:01.679] him, I I I you know, I I met him really
[01:15:04.320] to to find out whether or not there was
[01:15:06.320] a leak of classified material because um
[01:15:10.080] some of the things he was saying and
[01:15:11.520] some of the things, you know, that were
[01:15:13.120] written written down, you know, they
[01:15:16.239] were pretty close to some of the things
[01:15:19.040] that um you know, uh were accur were
[01:15:21.600] very accurate. So when I met Tom in
[01:15:24.239] 2016,
[01:15:25.760] uh uh
[01:15:28.000] I had a very long dinner with him and um
[01:15:31.679] wow, I was really taken aback. He's
[01:15:34.320] quite a quite a guy and um born leader,
[01:15:38.480] you know, really really smart on this
[01:15:40.400] topic. Knows knows it cold and um but he
[01:15:44.000] has a very uh he's very imaginative and
[01:15:46.800] he has a very open mind towards
[01:15:48.400] everything. So, and he had all these
[01:15:50.640] advisers, these government advisers, and
[01:15:52.800] they were the real deal. I found out who
[01:15:54.320] three of them were uh uh only through
[01:15:57.679] Podesta leaks, you know, the the email
[01:15:59.600] leaks. Uh we found out who who some of
[01:16:01.440] them were. I guess two of them, but he
[01:16:04.159] wouldn't tell me whether that was true
[01:16:05.199] or not, but I know they're true, but the
[01:16:06.560] other ones I don't know, and he doesn't
[01:16:08.159] talk about or to tell him, but I know
[01:16:09.600] they're real. Um so, we we were talking
[01:16:13.040] to him about that. And anyway, that
[01:16:14.480] that's when we started the company. It
[01:16:15.920] was the next day we had lunch together.
[01:16:17.360] It was me and Tom and uh I think Jock
[01:16:20.960] was there and uh Hal put off and uh uh I
[01:16:26.480] think another person who doesn't want to
[01:16:28.159] be named so I won't name them and we
[01:16:30.239] decided at that point at least Hal and I
[01:16:32.880] decided with Tom we were going to create
[01:16:34.159] this company and then off we went and
[01:16:36.080] then when uh then we were able to get
[01:16:39.120] Steve Justice uh from the uh Skunk Works
[01:16:42.320] to come on board and then later Chris
[01:16:44.000] Melon we I went to see Lou at the
[01:16:46.800] Pentagon on and he told me he was going
[01:16:48.159] to retire about
[01:16:50.560] I couldn't believe it. I said, "What the
[01:16:52.080] hell are you doing? You're a very senior
[01:16:53.679] guy here." He said, I said, "You know,
[01:16:55.040] why are you retiring? You're young. You
[01:16:57.280] got kids going to college." And he said,
[01:16:58.719] "I just can't get anywhere with this."
[01:17:00.000] He said, "No one's taking me seriously."
[01:17:01.600] And he said, "This needs to be out
[01:17:02.880] there." So, he he quit. And then uh we
[01:17:05.280] hired him, you know, at that point. And
[01:17:07.040] then um and then brought on a board uh
[01:17:10.000] you know, advisory board of some really
[01:17:12.080] good people. So, yeah, we were very
[01:17:14.320] proud of that. And uh we hope sometime
[01:17:16.320] in the future that we'll be able to
[01:17:19.920] uh become much more active uh in in the
[01:17:23.040] community uh more so than we are now.
[01:17:25.840] Now we got you got organizations like
[01:17:27.440] the Soul Foundation, you know, great
[01:17:30.400] great. They're just doing wonderful
[01:17:32.640] things and very I know most of the
[01:17:35.600] people there uh that run it and they're
[01:17:37.920] just really top of the line. Gary Nolan,
[01:17:40.480] Peter Sca Scayfish, and uh a couple of
[01:17:43.679] the others. And it's it's scientifically
[01:17:45.440] focused. It's exactly what we need.
[01:17:49.040] And what's your take then on Jake
[01:17:51.040] Barber? You know, I was really excited
[01:17:52.800] when when he came out and I thought that
[01:17:55.040] would move the needle and it it just
[01:17:57.040] seems like that it hasn't been received
[01:17:59.440] well, his whole Skywatcher program.
[01:18:03.360] Well, yeah. I mean, I I you know, I
[01:18:05.360] don't discount Jay at all. I don't know
[01:18:07.520] Jake. I don't know him at all. Uh um and
[01:18:10.080] um uh when he described what he was
[01:18:12.400] doing,
[01:18:14.320] perfect sense to me. I I know
[01:18:17.520] I Yeah, I mean I know of that type of
[01:18:19.760] work. So yeah, he's he's he's the real
[01:18:22.880] deal. No, no question about it. Uh um I
[01:18:26.000] didn't uh I think why it didn't the
[01:18:28.960] Skywatcher thing I think is very
[01:18:30.480] important. And um I don't
[01:18:34.239] I'm not sure whether this I guess they
[01:18:36.560] call it psionics or something like that
[01:18:38.159] where somebody's sitting down and
[01:18:39.360] they're they get a remote viewer and try
[01:18:41.600] to make contact. Uh I think there's
[01:18:44.080] there's something to be said about that.
[01:18:45.760] I I don't know whether that's going to
[01:18:47.679] really manifest into anything. It's like
[01:18:50.080] the people that go out. I know Steven
[01:18:52.960] Greer has these things where you go out
[01:18:54.480] and you watch, you know, and you try to
[01:18:57.360] make connections. Usually they're orbs.
[01:18:59.360] you'll see them. Chris Bleto does this.
[01:19:01.840] Uh also, um my my feeling has always
[01:19:06.239] been uh be very careful about contacting
[01:19:10.080] something you don't know you don't know
[01:19:12.239] anything about. Uh um a good friend of
[01:19:15.679] mine uh Keith uh Thompson has just
[01:19:19.520] written a new book, but he was telling
[01:19:21.360] me that he you know the
[01:19:24.800] uh uh I'd like to plug it because it's
[01:19:28.080] really really good. He wrote Angels and
[01:19:30.400] Aliens and um Oh, it's called The UFO
[01:19:34.960] Paradox.
[01:19:36.880] Okay, so the UFO paradox by Keith
[01:19:39.040] Thompson. Yeah. Yeah. He might be
[01:19:41.120] somebody you'd want to have on your
[01:19:42.239] podcast. He is really really smart. He's
[01:19:45.040] one of the best I think commentators uh
[01:19:48.159] and thinkers on this particular area. I
[01:19:50.400] met him at at Elselin a few years ago uh
[01:19:53.840] where we had a uh uh where Jeff Krele
[01:19:58.320] put together and uh Leslie Kaine put
[01:20:00.640] together a group of people experiencers
[01:20:03.199] and we all sat around and chatted you
[01:20:04.960] know and um another great guy there was
[01:20:07.280] uh Whitley Strieber who's written two
[01:20:09.840] fantastic books one's called them which
[01:20:11.920] I really loved it probably one of the
[01:20:13.360] best analyses I've read of the
[01:20:15.040] phenomenon and then uh his latest one is
[01:20:17.520] them which uh no The fourth mind. I'm
[01:20:21.040] sorry. It it's just absolutely
[01:20:22.800] wonderful, wonderful book. He's one of
[01:20:24.800] the better thinkers I think on this
[01:20:26.320] particular topic. Him, Jeff Kriel, um
[01:20:29.280] Jacques, obviously Diana, um they Leslie
[01:20:34.000] uh Kaine and Annie Jacobson. Those are
[01:20:36.880] his people. My favorite book, uh one of
[01:20:39.040] my favorite books is called I must have
[01:20:41.760] read this thing three times and I'm
[01:20:43.040] going to start reading it again. It's
[01:20:44.159] called Dimmonic Reality, uh by Patrick
[01:20:47.040] Harper. Uh it's not an easy read. All
[01:20:49.600] right. He he he's an academic. Uh went
[01:20:53.600] to Cambridge, Brit uh I think he read
[01:20:56.719] English there, but anyway, fascinating
[01:20:59.520] book on the topic. Uh one of the better
[01:21:01.840] ones I've read, too. So, there's so much
[01:21:03.840] good literature out there now. And um uh
[01:21:06.719] I'm just going through Jack Valet's
[01:21:08.400] forbidden science journals, you know,
[01:21:10.000] his personal journals, and I had never
[01:21:11.440] read them. And I just finished six,
[01:21:13.840] forbidden science six. Now he went back
[01:21:15.520] and I'm going starting at one and and
[01:21:17.280] going to go go go up and absolutely
[01:21:19.600] fascinating about some of the problems
[01:21:21.679] associated with studying this phenomena
[01:21:24.560] uh uh and the problems associated with
[01:21:27.199] it financial social um just dealing with
[01:21:30.800] the people you know you know and how
[01:21:33.440] everybody has different viewpoints and
[01:21:35.040] what have you and how that affects um
[01:21:38.880] uh you know which way research goes. Um
[01:21:42.880] it it's great. It's it's just wonderful.
[01:21:45.360] So So I guess finally after all your
[01:21:49.520] years investigating your personal
[01:21:51.280] experiences, what do you think it means
[01:21:53.600] to be human? What have you learned over
[01:21:56.159] the over your experience?
[01:21:59.199] Wow.
[01:22:00.880] Yeah, that's a that's a wonderful
[01:22:02.719] question. Um
[01:22:05.280] I in the end I always go back to and I
[01:22:10.239] don't know whether this is apocryphal or
[01:22:11.679] not but I think it was Elis Huxley who
[01:22:14.239] was on his deathbed you know wrote the
[01:22:15.920] doors of perception
[01:22:18.000] and
[01:22:19.760] somebody asked him a similar question
[01:22:22.159] and he just said uh you know what can
[01:22:24.880] you tell me you know I think it was his
[01:22:26.960] one of his relatives what can you tell
[01:22:28.560] us based on everything you know and he
[01:22:31.040] just looked up and he said be kind And
[01:22:33.600] and I I have to say I I steal that when
[01:22:38.320] people ask me questions like this.
[01:22:39.760] What's it all about? What life is about?
[01:22:43.120] What does it mean? And the answer is I
[01:22:46.080] don't know. But I do know deep down what
[01:22:50.960] I I personally truly feel is that to be
[01:22:55.280] a successful human being
[01:22:58.239] to
[01:22:59.760] to say that your life had any kind of
[01:23:02.960] meaning in it at all is really trying to
[01:23:06.639] gear your life towards being kind and
[01:23:08.880] compassionate to other people, animals,
[01:23:12.880] and everything around every living thing
[01:23:14.639] around you. if you possibly can do that.
[01:23:17.199] Kindness and compassion, understanding
[01:23:19.040] is obviously a part of it. Um, and you
[01:23:22.239] know, just trying to take the high road
[01:23:24.239] as much as you possibly can. I think
[01:23:26.719] love
[01:23:28.239] is probably at the end of it all. Some
[01:23:30.560] kind of universal love or pattern of
[01:23:33.840] love. I don't know. Um, it's that's the
[01:23:37.520] only thing I I I can tell you I that I
[01:23:41.840] try to live by. I mean, I fail every
[01:23:43.679] day. I mean, I really do, but I I I try
[01:23:46.800] to do that. I just try to try to be as
[01:23:49.440] nice as I possibly can to people. Uh,
[01:23:52.800] you know, I'm not always always that
[01:23:54.719] way. Some people try to take advantage
[01:23:56.000] of you and, you know, and you you know,
[01:23:59.040] maybe you sort of slough them off
[01:24:01.040] because you can't really
[01:24:03.679] you can't really engage everybody. You
[01:24:05.679] know, I I have people that send me
[01:24:07.120] emails and texts and, you know, they
[01:24:10.159] want, you know, they have terrible
[01:24:11.760] issues. you know, I I've been I've been
[01:24:14.400] being attacked by, you know, things at
[01:24:16.239] night and, you know, and I've had these
[01:24:17.920] terrible experiences my whole life. What
[01:24:19.600] do I do? What do I do? And the answer is
[01:24:21.360] I don't have any answers for you. I can
[01:24:23.760] give you understanding um and you know
[01:24:26.560] and refer you maybe to muon or refer you
[01:24:29.600] to
[01:24:31.280] uh maybe a website that you know that
[01:24:33.520] helps people or you know and tell you
[01:24:35.280] you might want to get help from a you
[01:24:37.120] know psychotherapist that could you know
[01:24:38.800] maybe specializes in this issue but a
[01:24:42.000] lot of times I just don't have time to
[01:24:43.360] answer everything you know that people
[01:24:45.280] send me but um I certainly have sympathy
[01:24:48.239] for them because some of these people
[01:24:50.000] are really suffer
[01:24:52.320] Um, and that's the other aspect of this,
[01:24:56.400] um, that I think disclosure touches on
[01:24:59.120] is giving validation to the people who
[01:25:02.880] who've had these experiences that are
[01:25:04.560] bothered by them. Uh, I mean, my
[01:25:07.920] experience bothers me, but not to the
[01:25:10.639] point it altered my life in any way. You
[01:25:12.719] know, this may be more interested in the
[01:25:14.719] topic, but other than that, I mean, you
[01:25:16.320] know, I'm one of these I grew up rough.
[01:25:18.239] I mean, I mean, I I I don't, you know, I
[01:25:21.360] just assume, you know, go face to face
[01:25:22.960] with something, you know, uh,
[01:25:25.440] particularly if I know what it is. Of
[01:25:26.880] course, I don't know what this is, so
[01:25:27.920] I'm not really saying I want to go face
[01:25:29.280] to face with this because I, you know,
[01:25:30.639] might get crushed. So, um, in the
[01:25:33.679] intelligence business, it's funny when
[01:25:35.040] you when you want to do an operation,
[01:25:37.120] let's say, and you want to, you know,
[01:25:40.400] break into some place or you want to
[01:25:41.840] steal something or you want to do
[01:25:43.199] something crazy, you generally want to
[01:25:46.400] have at least an 80 85% chance of
[01:25:50.000] getting it done, right? And then you
[01:25:52.320] have to look and you spend, you know,
[01:25:54.639] days, months, weeks, sometimes years
[01:25:56.960] looking at points of failure. I mean,
[01:25:58.960] where can I fail in this operation? and
[01:26:01.360] you try to plug those holes and knowing
[01:26:03.199] full well that there's going to be ones
[01:26:04.480] you don't see or you don't anticipate,
[01:26:06.320] but you want to walk into a situation
[01:26:08.000] where you at least know that you have a
[01:26:09.679] good shot of coming out of it in one
[01:26:11.440] piece or without it blowing up in your
[01:26:13.600] face. When you're dealing with this
[01:26:15.360] phenomenon,
[01:26:17.520] you don't have that. You don't even have
[01:26:19.600] a I don't have a 5%, you know, uh uh uh
[01:26:22.639] you know uh
[01:26:26.320] uh confidence in knowing what this is. I
[01:26:30.159] don't know what I'm going up against.
[01:26:31.920] There's a trickster element to it. You
[01:26:34.000] there's a deceitful element to it. Uh we
[01:26:37.280] know that they could basically control
[01:26:38.960] you in some and we have no defenses
[01:26:41.199] against this. Um the only thing that
[01:26:44.159] seemed to work and this is mostly a
[01:26:46.000] poltergeist activity is just basically
[01:26:47.600] telling the thing just go away. Don't
[01:26:49.280] bother me anymore. Sometimes that works.
[01:26:51.679] You know, I've had people that used it
[01:26:53.760] and, you know, it uh either diminished
[01:26:56.239] or it went away completely, you know,
[01:26:58.719] and then sometimes it doesn't work, but
[01:27:00.320] rarely it doesn't work, but most of the
[01:27:02.800] time it'll work. But just But I always
[01:27:04.400] say, don't give it energy. Just just
[01:27:06.320] talk to it in a nice way. Don't piss it
[01:27:08.159] off. Just tell it in a nice way. Just
[01:27:10.400] look, I don't need this in my life. You
[01:27:13.199] know, please go away. But when you're
[01:27:15.280] when you have orbs flying through your
[01:27:17.040] house and you know banging into your
[01:27:18.800] kids and you know and you know upsetting
[01:27:21.040] your your wife and all this kind of
[01:27:22.400] stuff. I don't have that but I have
[01:27:23.520] friends of mine who have that whole
[01:27:25.600] different ballgame. Or you go to
[01:27:27.600] Skinwalker Ranch you know whole
[01:27:29.440] different ballgame. The Hitchhiker
[01:27:31.120] effect. I know people that have had
[01:27:32.400] that. They come home with it. I've had
[01:27:35.760] people that got involved in this like
[01:27:37.199] you in particularly you like I you you
[01:27:39.360] know you're former military guy. You get
[01:27:40.880] involved in this. You talk with it. I
[01:27:42.639] mean, sometimes this stuff is contagious
[01:27:44.320] and sometimes, you know, you you get it
[01:27:46.480] yourself and and you know, and it
[01:27:49.520] affects your family.
[01:27:51.679] So,
[01:27:53.679] yeah, I'm off on a different topic.
[01:27:55.760] Sorry. Yeah. No, I' I've truly enjoyed
[01:28:00.080] this uh discussion, Jim. Um, you know,
[01:28:02.560] I've I've had a lot of anger in the past
[01:28:05.040] towards the government agencies. CIA was
[01:28:10.080] particular.
[01:28:11.679] And really when I found out about it or
[01:28:13.280] or I I saw enough evidence to lead me to
[01:28:16.480] that uh realization that it that it is
[01:28:20.080] real and that it most likely probably
[01:28:23.440] definitely um our government has known
[01:28:25.520] about it for for many decades. And I was
[01:28:27.840] really angry about that. And I think
[01:28:30.880] you've ch you've changed at least some
[01:28:34.080] some part of that perspective I think
[01:28:35.920] for the positive just in this
[01:28:37.920] discussion. And I'm really Yeah, I'm
[01:28:40.080] happy to have that to have more
[01:28:41.360] understanding on why we were we've been
[01:28:42.880] lied to for so long. Yeah. Well, you
[01:28:45.920] know, it's it's funny. Thank you uh for
[01:28:48.080] saying that. But um that's not saying,
[01:28:51.440] you know, I don't agree with what the
[01:28:52.880] government did in the very beginning,
[01:28:54.400] but the government was in a you know
[01:28:56.800] Imagine yourself in that position uh
[01:29:00.320] back in the 40s. Uh you have a very
[01:29:02.639] primitive
[01:29:04.320] uh country. I mean we were basically
[01:29:06.320] still a guarrion for all intents and
[01:29:08.320] purposes. Telecommunication systems were
[01:29:10.639] awful. They're very primitive. Uh you
[01:29:13.280] were worried about the Soviet Union who
[01:29:15.199] had basically wanted to take over the
[01:29:16.880] world and they had the ability to create
[01:29:18.719] all these propaganda machines. So you
[01:29:21.280] were really on the defensive. Uh and so
[01:29:23.520] you were saying how do we keep this
[01:29:25.120] quiet? And that's what they did. The
[01:29:26.880] problem with that was, you know, it it
[01:29:29.920] just cascaded and into, you know, into
[01:29:33.520] the 60s and in the 50s, 60s and 70s and
[01:29:36.880] a lot of people were hurt by it. And
[01:29:39.600] that was bad. And I and I think their
[01:29:41.920] intentions were good, but you know, the
[01:29:44.639] road to hell, right? You know, pave with
[01:29:46.639] good intentions. Um, but I know I know
[01:29:49.520] the people that are in I know some of
[01:29:51.040] the people that are involved in this.
[01:29:52.960] These are good people. They're not bad
[01:29:55.440] people. They don't They're not a cabal,
[01:29:57.440] you know. You know, and people always
[01:29:59.199] say, "Well, they're not elected." Well,
[01:30:00.880] that's nonsense. I mean, you know, CIA
[01:30:03.199] director is not elected. I mean, there
[01:30:05.120] are a lot of people that aren't elected
[01:30:06.239] in the government. You know, you can't
[01:30:08.080] elect everybody. Um, uh, but what you do
[01:30:11.280] do is, you know, the president, and this
[01:30:13.760] is an executive program, the president
[01:30:16.719] decides,
[01:30:18.560] you know, how this works. the president
[01:30:20.639] gets to decide, you know, who he
[01:30:22.800] nominates to run a particular agency and
[01:30:25.040] then that person then runs a particular
[01:30:27.120] program. Um, and that person's
[01:30:29.760] responsible to the president. But as I
[01:30:32.639] always said, 14 presidents hadn't said a
[01:30:35.199] damn word about this beyond, yeah, you
[01:30:38.560] know, like Obama came out and, you know,
[01:30:40.639] Reagan made that comment. Uh, uh, I
[01:30:43.600] think Reagan was briefed. I think Obama
[01:30:45.199] was brief. I think a lot of them in the
[01:30:46.880] latter days were briefed. Um but uh you
[01:30:50.560] know but they were only briefed to a
[01:30:52.560] certain extent. There's
[01:30:55.440] I'd like to point out there's two kinds
[01:30:57.040] of briefings, right? There's a
[01:30:59.760] there's a briefing where somebody sits
[01:31:01.199] down with you and saying, "Look, Mr.
[01:31:02.880] President, um
[01:31:05.679] there are other, you know, entities that
[01:31:07.840] are out there and um and we have
[01:31:10.159] Downcraft and um they've been here for
[01:31:12.560] quite a long time and uh this is where
[01:31:15.760] this sits. You know, you know, these are
[01:31:18.239] the companies that are working with
[01:31:19.520] this. These is the government
[01:31:20.560] organizations that are running this. And
[01:31:23.760] this is generally speaking what we know.
[01:31:26.400] Maybe a half an hour briefing, 45 minute
[01:31:30.000] briefing. They will not get into the
[01:31:31.840] specifics. Um I've had briefings like
[01:31:34.639] that where particularly in bigoted
[01:31:36.480] programs, highly bigoted programs or
[01:31:38.320] wavered special access programs, they're
[01:31:40.639] going to give you the the initial
[01:31:41.920] briefing where they tell you generally
[01:31:43.120] what this is. Then they say to me they
[01:31:46.080] used to say do you want to get into the
[01:31:47.440] second part of it and then it's a whole
[01:31:49.440] different ballgame. Then we have to sign
[01:31:50.719] you up to this. You have to sign away
[01:31:52.000] your life for that. And I used to say
[01:31:54.080] yes and then I stopped saying yes. No I
[01:31:56.320] don't want to know anymore. Don't care.
[01:31:57.840] Right? You know I don't need to know the
[01:31:59.520] particulars. And I think that's what's
[01:32:01.120] happening with a lot of the presidents
[01:32:02.320] because they can't tell them anything
[01:32:03.520] beyond what they just told them. But
[01:32:05.280] they're not going to get into the
[01:32:06.320] details. It's like when when you know
[01:32:08.159] when CIA goes to when the FBI goes to
[01:32:11.120] Hipsy and [ __ ] you know, Senate Select
[01:32:13.360] Committee and the House Permanent Select
[01:32:14.960] Committee and they they talk to them
[01:32:16.960] about their programs. Well, they tell
[01:32:19.199] them about the programs, but they don't
[01:32:20.639] start telling them like who who who the
[01:32:22.719] who the spies are and you know and and
[01:32:26.159] the intricate details. They just don't
[01:32:28.239] and and Hipsy and [ __ ] aren't
[01:32:29.600] interested in that anyway. They just
[01:32:30.800] want to know are you spending your money
[01:32:32.639] our money wisely? A and B are you not
[01:32:35.120] breaking any laws? That's all they want
[01:32:36.480] to know and you know and just so they
[01:32:38.639] have a pretty good idea and it's been
[01:32:40.080] it's worked out really really well. So
[01:32:42.960] the government I think has told
[01:32:46.159] somebody in the gang of eight over the
[01:32:48.480] years. I think Congress is known about
[01:32:50.239] this, but the president has an enormous
[01:32:52.960] powers um um and these are in president
[01:32:56.719] presidential executive action documents
[01:32:58.960] that give him the power to do these kind
[01:33:01.199] of programs without notifying Congress
[01:33:03.120] because he thinks it's in the best
[01:33:04.400] interest of the country not to. He
[01:33:06.480] doesn't have to notify Congress. I think
[01:33:08.000] he does sometimes. Okay. But that's
[01:33:09.760] legal.
[01:33:11.280] That's what the presidential power and
[01:33:12.880] Congress gave him that power. So, so
[01:33:16.320] that's the other part of it. I mean, you
[01:33:18.080] know, uh, people blame the CIA or NSA or
[01:33:22.080] DoD for not talking about this. This is
[01:33:24.880] a program that doesn't belong to them.
[01:33:26.560] This is a program that belongs to the
[01:33:28.560] president of the United States. He
[01:33:30.800] determines what gets said, not CIA. It
[01:33:34.239] said, you know, this old this old saw,
[01:33:37.520] oh, it's how the CIA helped overthrow
[01:33:39.360] the government of Iran. CIA helped, you
[01:33:43.120] know, some Iranians overthrow the
[01:33:45.360] government of Iran in the 70s, but it
[01:33:47.440] wasn't a CIA program. It was a
[01:33:49.440] presidential program. CIA takes its
[01:33:51.760] orders from the president, the National
[01:33:53.199] Security Council. Everything DoD does,
[01:33:56.080] CIA and every government agency comes
[01:33:58.239] from lawmakers. Doesn't come from them.
[01:34:00.480] They don't make this stuff up and go out
[01:34:02.080] on their own and do it on their own. It
[01:34:03.920] just doesn't happen that way. They take
[01:34:06.239] the crap for it. You're right. Yeah.
[01:34:09.040] What about uh plausible deniability? You
[01:34:11.679] know, that's a well-known CIA.
[01:34:15.120] Do you think they could keep it out of
[01:34:16.800] his, you know, not brief him? Kind of
[01:34:18.560] the what Louando was frustrated by is
[01:34:21.040] that they were not briefing
[01:34:23.280] uh the the the chief, not the not the
[01:34:25.679] president, but they weren't briefing
[01:34:27.760] joint chiefs of staff.
[01:34:30.480] Yeah. Well, again, uh uh uh the joint
[01:34:33.920] chiefs of st There's a need to know.
[01:34:36.480] What do you need to know? I mean,
[01:34:37.679] government agencies are very very
[01:34:39.760] covetous of their information. Um,
[01:34:43.760] getting CIA to share information with
[01:34:45.920] the FBI was and was just terrible. It it
[01:34:50.719] was they didn't trust each other. FBI
[01:34:52.560] wouldn't share. We didn't share. Same
[01:34:54.239] with DoD. You know, you if you're a spy
[01:34:57.280] and you you recruit, say a Russian or a
[01:35:00.239] Chinese and he's absolutely the best spy
[01:35:02.560] you've ever had, there's absolutely no
[01:35:04.639] way in hell you're going to tell the FBI
[01:35:06.480] who this Chinese guy is or Russian guy
[01:35:08.480] is or DoD or anybody else. The
[01:35:11.199] information you get from them may go to
[01:35:14.080] the FBI and it may go to DoD, but it'll
[01:35:16.560] be it'll be covered in the sense that
[01:35:18.400] they'll never be able to guess who this
[01:35:19.760] person was. And you want to do that
[01:35:20.960] because you want to protect your
[01:35:22.000] sources, but that also gives you access
[01:35:24.320] to the president, right? That you have
[01:35:26.880] and you only have. So there's a lot of
[01:35:28.639] that crap going on and and what have
[01:35:30.719] you. But also it's again it goes down to
[01:35:35.120] need to know. What does a does a joint I
[01:35:37.520] mean does the chairman of the joint
[01:35:39.040] chiefs of staff need to know that we
[01:35:42.080] have information on you know UAP and uh
[01:35:48.320] you know these kind of craft well I
[01:35:51.199] would make the case yeah he he should
[01:35:53.360] know particularly if they're interfering
[01:35:54.960] in operations right just like they did
[01:35:57.520] in World War II with the Foo fighters uh
[01:36:00.159] you know and all the things that
[01:36:01.520] happened you know uh and these nuclear
[01:36:03.760] uh strike groups terrorist strike groups
[01:36:05.600] pilot seeing all this kind of stuff and
[01:36:08.320] I'm sure
[01:36:11.199] I'm sure some of them have been when
[01:36:13.360] they've asked have been told about it
[01:36:16.000] that yeah we have this under control or
[01:36:18.400] we don't have it under control or yeah
[01:36:20.320] it's real but we don't know what it is
[01:36:22.239] and they left it at that. So I think
[01:36:26.000] that has been done and like I said I
[01:36:27.440] think there are members of Congress who
[01:36:28.639] do know about this. Maybe one or two
[01:36:31.040] maybe some maybe two or three in a gang
[01:36:32.639] of eight have probably known about this
[01:36:34.560] over the years for one reason or or
[01:36:37.280] another. President doesn't have to tell
[01:36:39.120] him that. Um uh and uh you know and any
[01:36:43.199] conversations between say for instance
[01:36:44.719] the CIA and the president Congress can't
[01:36:48.960] know about you know they can't they
[01:36:51.119] can't petition to know about it. They
[01:36:52.560] can't sue to get it. That's privilege
[01:36:54.159] information that happens between the
[01:36:56.320] executive branch and the and the the and
[01:36:59.280] the uh entity that works for him which
[01:37:01.360] CIA is. It works solely for the
[01:37:03.199] executive branch, nobody else, and the
[01:37:05.040] National Security Council. So that's who
[01:37:07.119] they owe their allegiance to. So as Dave
[01:37:10.639] Grouch said
[01:37:12.800] to me privately, but also he said this
[01:37:14.719] publicly said he said disclosure
[01:37:18.080] it comes from the president. He gets it.
[01:37:20.080] He knows this. He says it has to come
[01:37:21.840] from the president. can't come from any
[01:37:23.520] place else.
[01:37:25.280] So, and that's essentially what this is
[01:37:27.760] about. And I think
[01:37:31.920] believe me, nobody want no government
[01:37:34.480] agency wants this topic. Nobody. Nobody.
[01:37:37.760] It is a royal pain in the ass because
[01:37:40.480] you don't know what the hell to do with
[01:37:42.000] it. You just don't know what to do with
[01:37:43.760] it. It's a It just cost money. It hasn't
[01:37:48.800] given you anything. It just except
[01:37:50.719] problems, right? And you have to manage
[01:37:52.719] these problems constantly, right? So
[01:37:57.600] what So what is your top CIA story? I
[01:38:01.520] guess just changing
[01:38:03.760] um tracks here just for the last little
[01:38:05.520] bit. What you know, if you're writing a
[01:38:07.440] book, what would be your your top story
[01:38:09.520] that that you would share or that you
[01:38:11.760] tell to your friends when they ask about
[01:38:13.520] uh your CIA adventures?
[01:38:16.400] Well, first of all, I would never write
[01:38:17.679] a book. Uh uh although there there have
[01:38:19.920] been some wonderful books on the CIA
[01:38:21.600] written. Some friends of mine have
[01:38:22.719] written them. They're they're wonderful.
[01:38:23.920] They're really really good. I I'm not
[01:38:25.440] that guy. I just can't do it. Uh and as
[01:38:28.080] far as some of the best times I've ever
[01:38:30.239] had in the agency, honestly, they're all
[01:38:33.199] classified. And and they were just I I
[01:38:37.520] just wish some of this stuff could come
[01:38:38.960] out because some of it is just so cool.
[01:38:41.679] It's just so cool. And it's not just the
[01:38:44.639] clandestine service either. it's the
[01:38:46.480] science of technology dress or you know
[01:38:48.320] the analytical side there's so much
[01:38:50.880] there's so much brain power there you
[01:38:52.880] just you just can't get over how much
[01:38:54.639] brain power that's there you know I told
[01:38:57.440] somebody once I said you know you could
[01:38:58.719] be in a meeting and you know you know I
[01:39:01.199] graduated from Ohio State I'm a public
[01:39:02.639] you know I got a master's degree in
[01:39:04.000] English literature right with poetry
[01:39:05.760] right so like yeah but the guy sitting
[01:39:08.159] next to me you know Harvard uh Harvard
[01:39:11.360] PhD in medieval French literature the
[01:39:13.840] woman across you know NBA from Harvard,
[01:39:16.400] you know, and she speaks Japanese. The
[01:39:18.800] guy down there, you know, is a is a
[01:39:21.040] former attorney, you know, and and
[01:39:23.280] they're all topof the line because they
[01:39:24.800] hire in the 94 percentile, right? So
[01:39:27.600] there everybody's the smartest guy in
[01:39:29.119] the room or the smartest woman in the
[01:39:30.560] room and that's
[01:39:33.280] that's amazing because you know, you you
[01:39:36.639] uh you sit there and and then you get
[01:39:39.040] the guy from East Missouri State
[01:39:40.880] University who basically had a 3.0, I
[01:39:43.679] know, but he's the most street smart guy
[01:39:45.920] you've ever met in your life, right? Has
[01:39:47.840] the most common sense and they're all
[01:39:50.239] together in a room and and and you know,
[01:39:53.360] planning something or doing something or
[01:39:55.280] talking about something and nobody
[01:39:57.360] dimensions politics. It's no politics.
[01:39:59.360] That's one of the things in the agency I
[01:40:00.800] was always surprised about. I never had
[01:40:02.719] a political discussion in that place in
[01:40:04.480] 34 years that I worked there. Never. Not
[01:40:07.520] once. Didn't know what anybody's
[01:40:09.840] background was. didn't know what their
[01:40:11.199] religion was unless they volunteered it.
[01:40:13.840] This this never discussed. Uh that's not
[01:40:16.639] happening anymore sadly. Uh I think uh
[01:40:19.199] but but that's the the thing I I I liked
[01:40:22.400] about it and that some of these things
[01:40:24.480] that we were able to do the public will
[01:40:27.440] never know about and and really probably
[01:40:29.440] shouldn't know about because other
[01:40:31.280] people were involved who they don't want
[01:40:33.119] their names out there, you know, and
[01:40:34.400] other countries might have helped and
[01:40:36.400] things along those lines, but um they're
[01:40:38.639] worth their money. Let's put it that
[01:40:40.080] way. But I can't. But some of the
[01:40:41.679] operations I can't get into. I mean,
[01:40:43.360] obviously I can't get everything I did
[01:40:45.440] was classified. So, yeah. But I had a
[01:40:49.280] lot of fun. Best damn career ever. Yeah.
[01:40:52.400] And they're hiring now. So, if you're
[01:40:54.080] Yeah, they're hiring now. So, you you
[01:40:56.000] you know, I just got an email from them
[01:40:57.520] the other day saying, "We're hiring."
[01:40:58.880] you know, uh, so have your your
[01:41:02.080] listeners, if anybody's listening, you
[01:41:03.840] know, if you have a college degree and
[01:41:06.400] you don't belong to a subversive
[01:41:07.840] organization, for God's sakes, don't
[01:41:09.679] smoke marijuana for at least a year
[01:41:11.360] before you apply. Um, and you haven't
[01:41:14.159] stolen anything or committed a felony,
[01:41:15.920] you should be you should be right up
[01:41:17.280] right up there.
[01:41:19.520] Okay. Well, I do feel better actually
[01:41:22.080] after talking with you. I'm uh yeah, I
[01:41:25.040] just feel prouder of being American and
[01:41:27.760] thanks for your service and for for your
[01:41:30.480] and for your interest in this topic and
[01:41:32.159] for promoting it and for To the Stars
[01:41:33.679] Academy. I think it made a huge a huge
[01:41:35.600] splash and really opened this topic up.
[01:41:37.199] So, and thanks for coming on the show.
[01:41:38.719] So, yeah, my pleasure. I I I appreciate
[01:41:41.280] it. Thanks for having me. Excellent.
[01:41:43.199] Thank you, Jim. Okay. Bye-bye.
[01:41:46.719] That really was one of the most
[01:41:47.920] enlightening conversations I've had on
[01:41:50.320] this channel. I mean, Jim just gave us a
[01:41:53.280] master class in understanding the real
[01:41:55.920] complexity behind the UAP phenomenon.
[01:41:58.639] Not just the nuts and bolts, but he also
[01:42:01.119] talked about the consciousness aspects,
[01:42:03.119] the national security implications, and
[01:42:05.119] why even those with the highest
[01:42:06.480] clearances are struggling to make sense
[01:42:08.719] of it all. You know, why hasn't the
[01:42:10.480] government come out in 80 plus years?
[01:42:12.560] Turns out they have no clue what it is.
[01:42:14.080] and there's no real benefits to to at
[01:42:17.119] least that they can see to coming out
[01:42:18.719] and a whole lot of negatives after they
[01:42:21.040] gained it. So, what struck me the most
[01:42:23.520] was Jim's honesty. I mean, he's 75. He's
[01:42:26.000] someone who's been there inside the
[01:42:27.760] system for 34 years. He's seen the
[01:42:30.320] classified evidence. He knows the people
[01:42:32.239] in the legacy programs and he's just
[01:42:34.560] telling us straight up, we don't know
[01:42:36.400] what it is. So, that is both terrifying
[01:42:39.440] and oddly reassuring. It seemed to fill
[01:42:42.159] a lot of the gaps for me. So, I came
[01:42:44.000] into this conversation with some anger.
[01:42:46.639] I don't know if you've seen a few of my
[01:42:48.080] older videos about this government
[01:42:50.400] secrecy. I really felt like uh I'd been
[01:42:53.040] betrayed after serving the military and
[01:42:56.080] the government for so many years
[01:42:57.440] defending the Constitution. I really
[01:42:58.800] felt kind of betrayed by this. But, you
[01:43:01.119] know, I'm leaving this conversation with
[01:43:03.920] a deeper appreciation for just how
[01:43:06.719] impossible
[01:43:08.239] this problem is, or at least appears to
[01:43:11.520] be to the government, the national
[01:43:14.239] security apparatus. So, as Jim called
[01:43:16.239] it, this is the wickedest problem
[01:43:18.239] humanity faces. So, if this conversation
[01:43:21.119] impacted you like it did me, please
[01:43:23.920] share it. These are the kind of
[01:43:25.520] discussions I think we need to be
[01:43:27.280] having, not about whether the phenomenon
[01:43:29.600] is real, but about what it means for our
[01:43:32.239] species and how we move forward, how we
[01:43:34.560] can best help. Disclosure, you know,
[01:43:36.960] catastrophic disclosure seems like it
[01:43:39.360] could be really bad on a lot of levels
[01:43:41.199] as as Jim went through there could
[01:43:43.600] really affect our civilization. And if
[01:43:45.920] this is real, as I think a lot of people
[01:43:47.679] out there watching this know because
[01:43:49.520] they've seen it firsthand,
[01:43:51.840] if it is real and it it looks that way,
[01:43:54.560] seems very at least possible at this
[01:43:56.639] point, then there are some serious
[01:43:59.440] repercussions. And so how best can we
[01:44:01.600] prepare for this? And I think uh Jim
[01:44:04.320] gave some good advice there. So Jim's
[01:44:07.040] advice from Aldis Huxley was above above
[01:44:09.199] all else, be kind. So be kind to that
[01:44:12.320] like button. It really helps the
[01:44:14.080] channel. and subscribe. I have a great
[01:44:16.239] video coming up with Filipo Beyond and
[01:44:19.920] Trevor Graci, right? Filippo is the
[01:44:22.000] scientist who invented SAR tomography
[01:44:24.800] and saw below the pyramids. We had an
[01:44:26.560] amazing discussion and I should be
[01:44:28.320] talking to Jesse Michaels as well. So,
[01:44:30.159] subscribe and you'll get notifications
[01:44:32.159] or hopefully it comes up on your feed if
[01:44:33.679] I'm not being censored. Uh otherwise,
[01:44:35.840] you can just go to my channel and you'll
[01:44:37.280] find those videos. So, coming soon,
[01:44:39.360] please check out our sister channel, UAP
[01:44:42.080] Society.
[01:44:43.840] Alli and Justin do weekly news shows, so
[01:44:45.920] you can go there to get your weekly UAP
[01:44:48.159] news fix. They do a great job. And if
[01:44:50.960] you want to support the channel, I
[01:44:52.560] really appreciate it. You can become a
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[01:44:56.480] well as a YouTube member. Any of that
[01:44:58.880] really helps. And just watching really
[01:45:00.560] is a great help as well. So, thanks for
[01:45:02.880] all your guys support. It's not an easy
[01:45:05.280] job, uh, but it it is meaningful. So,
[01:45:09.119] have a great rest of your day. Peace.