Tom O'Neill on Heretics - congressional staffer UAP account

• Source: What The CIA is Hiding About Manson & Mind Control, Andrew Gold / Heretics
• Guest: Tom O'Neill
• Published: 2026-08-20
• Duration: 1:15:53
• Captured: 2026-09-04 from YouTube English auto-generated captions with youtube_transcript.py --timestamps
• Fidelity: complete machine-generated caption track; speaker labels are not present and transcription errors are preserved
• Analysis: ../../sources/oneill-congressional-staffer-recovered-craft-claim

[00:00:00.080] Why did Congress just call you?
[00:00:01.439] >> They decided to have hearings regarding
[00:00:03.520] MK Ultra, the CIA's secret brainwashing
[00:00:06.550] [music] program.
[00:00:08.160] There were unredacted original letters
[00:00:10.320] describing horrific experiments. I
[00:00:12.639] struck gold.
[00:00:13.440] >> Tom O'Neal is one of the world's leading
[00:00:15.519] authorities on Charles Manson. After 20
[00:00:17.920] years investigating Manson, MK Ultra,
[00:00:20.640] and America's darkest government
[00:00:22.480] secrets, he was called to testify before
[00:00:24.800] the United States Congress in [music]
[00:00:26.320] 2026. Manson wanted to ignite a race
[00:00:29.760] war.
[00:00:30.240] >> Dr. Skelter. And then the theory is that
[00:00:32.399] Charles Manson might have been a CIA
[00:00:34.239] experiment.
[00:00:34.880] >> I don't know if he was programmed by
[00:00:37.520] these guys to do what he [music] did or
[00:00:40.160] if they experimented with him and then
[00:00:42.239] he went crazy on his own. I said, "This
[00:00:44.559] was a CIA experiment gone wrong." And he
[00:00:47.440] said, "Absolutely [music]
[00:00:48.640] not. It was a CIA experiment gone
[00:00:50.800] right." Then you have control of the
[00:00:53.440] person's soul. Do I think it's still
[00:00:55.360] going on now? I'm not supposed to tell
[00:00:57.280] this, but whatever. The staffer for the
[00:00:59.359] congressperson said, "If you knew what
[00:01:01.359] we know, wow, I see what they see and
[00:01:04.559] it's terrifying and you wouldn't [music]
[00:01:06.159] be agnostic." Oh, that can't be true.
[00:01:08.400] But is it true? Oh god, I'm going to get
[00:01:10.080] in trouble. We have recovered.
[00:01:13.119] You've got to stay until the end of this
[00:01:15.280] one because that's when Tom O'Neal
[00:01:16.799] reveals the most staggering thing I've
[00:01:19.520] ever heard on this show. If this brings
[00:01:21.680] you value, please subscribe. Tom O'Neal,
[00:01:24.400] why did Congress just call you?
[00:01:26.080] >> Uh, it was a surprise. It kind of came
[00:01:28.320] out of the blue, but they decided to
[00:01:30.159] have hearings um on declassifying files
[00:01:34.880] uh regarding MK Ultra, the CIA's secret
[00:01:38.000] brainwashing program from the 1950s,60s,
[00:01:40.799] and I believe early '7s. Um, so they had
[00:01:43.920] these hearings about two weeks ago and
[00:01:46.880] they were chaired by a congresswoman
[00:01:49.759] named Anna Paulina Luna and it was her
[00:01:52.799] committee and their objective was to see
[00:01:56.000] if there's more records out there and if
[00:01:58.719] so how do we get them and also how were
[00:02:01.520] they kept secret all these years. So
[00:02:05.040] they found me cuz I wrote a book about
[00:02:06.960] Charles Manson which um presents a
[00:02:10.160] theoretical case that Manson intersected
[00:02:12.560] with this mind control program MK Ultra
[00:02:15.200] when he was in the hate Ashberry
[00:02:16.800] district of San Francisco right after
[00:02:19.040] getting released from prison in ' 67.
[00:02:22.480] And it's really hard to you know get
[00:02:24.800] sworn in in front of Congress in the
[00:02:26.879] capital and then try to say what I just
[00:02:29.760] said and not sound like a lunatic. But
[00:02:32.400] luckily um the committee members were
[00:02:36.160] had familiarized themselves with my book
[00:02:38.640] and my reporting and I I was able to get
[00:02:41.760] through it. Okay. I don't know if
[00:02:43.200] anything's going to happen. You know,
[00:02:45.280] famously the records were all destroyed.
[00:02:48.319] Um I guess if I should tell a little
[00:02:50.800] more for your audience, you know, the
[00:02:53.680] >> program was discovered in 1974
[00:02:56.959] and um they started having invest
[00:02:59.760] congressional investigations into it and
[00:03:02.239] more and more information leaked out in
[00:03:05.040] 1975767
[00:03:08.319] and in a nutshell what they learned was
[00:03:10.560] that Alan Bellis the head of the CIA in
[00:03:13.440] 1953 had authorized MK Ultra originally
[00:03:17.840] ally as a defensive effort against what
[00:03:20.720] US intelligence believed the Chinese and
[00:03:24.640] Russians had learned to do to captured
[00:03:28.400] airmen. So, we were at war with North
[00:03:30.400] Korea and China and our pilots were
[00:03:33.760] getting shot down and then they would be
[00:03:36.720] put on uh television in Korea where they
[00:03:40.080] would say that um you know they were
[00:03:43.120] announced that they were dropping
[00:03:44.879] biological weapons which is against the
[00:03:47.840] world law on the populations over there
[00:03:50.720] which the United States maintain we
[00:03:53.360] didn't and the Americans learned that
[00:03:56.879] they had this brainwashing program using
[00:03:59.360] drugs and sensory deprivation,
[00:04:01.439] hypnotism, and other methods to uh erase
[00:04:05.760] people's minds and plant memories and
[00:04:07.599] whatnot. So, they decided to do a
[00:04:10.239] counter um operation MK Ultra mostly to
[00:04:14.159] figure out how to like not allow that to
[00:04:16.639] happen to captured airmen. But then when
[00:04:18.400] they found out that it was actually
[00:04:20.160] possible to brainwash people, it became
[00:04:22.800] went from defensive to offensive. So
[00:04:25.440] they started hiring um scientists,
[00:04:28.160] researchers, doctors from outside the
[00:04:30.639] CIA and making them take loyalty oaths
[00:04:33.759] or secrecy oaths and then funding them
[00:04:36.160] with millions of dollars to experiment
[00:04:38.240] on people in prisons,
[00:04:40.639] >> in um institutions, in universities, on
[00:04:44.960] the street, and safe houses.
[00:04:46.880] >> Did people know they were being
[00:04:47.840] experimented?
[00:04:48.320] >> No. No. So it was unwitting.
[00:04:50.720] So the people didn't know that they were
[00:04:52.800] being dosed with LSD.
[00:04:55.120] or other drugs and some of them are
[00:04:57.520] pretty horrific um experiments. Um
[00:05:01.680] >> and it was a you know horrible program.
[00:05:03.600] This is right after the Nermberg trials
[00:05:05.680] ended in like I think 48 or 49 and the
[00:05:08.400] Nuremberg code was passed. And it also
[00:05:10.720] violated every hypocratic um oath a
[00:05:13.759] doctor takes about do no harm to a
[00:05:16.240] patient and they're giving them drugs
[00:05:17.840] knowing I mean some of the objectives
[00:05:20.160] particularly in the one scientist that I
[00:05:23.039] discovered documents showing that he'd
[00:05:25.039] been heavily involved in this after
[00:05:26.639] denying it up to the day of his death uh
[00:05:29.600] were administering LSD to people without
[00:05:32.479] their knowledge and then trying to
[00:05:35.120] induce specific mental disorders in
[00:05:37.520] them. fugue states, amnesas,
[00:05:41.120] uh, psychosis, make it fixed, that kind
[00:05:43.600] of thing. So, this was going on from 19,
[00:05:46.320] well, actually it began earlier right at
[00:05:48.400] the end of the World War II cuz the
[00:05:50.560] Nazis had experimented with this in
[00:05:52.639] concentration camps on prisoners
[00:05:55.280] >> and we started hiring Nazi scientists.
[00:05:58.880] Um it was called Operation Paperclip for
[00:06:01.759] MK Ultra type uh human experimentation
[00:06:05.199] research and also for our rocket
[00:06:07.199] engineering and stuff like that and
[00:06:08.800] slipping them into the United States.
[00:06:11.280] But it really you know became authorized
[00:06:14.560] officially secretly in 53 as MK Ultra
[00:06:17.759] and at that point for 20 years it was
[00:06:20.319] the most secretive program operated by
[00:06:22.800] the CIA and the most expensive. So when
[00:06:26.240] it was exposed, when Nixon
[00:06:29.840] was being forced out of office and on
[00:06:31.680] the verge of impeachment, but he
[00:06:33.680] resigned instead, the CIA knew that
[00:06:36.880] whoever came in next could find out that
[00:06:39.840] they'd had this illegal program. It's
[00:06:42.479] also illegal for the United State or the
[00:06:44.800] CIA to do any work domestically on our
[00:06:48.720] soil. Um, it's against their charter. We
[00:06:51.199] can only do stuff overseas. So in and of
[00:06:53.759] itself, the fact that they were doing
[00:06:55.120] this all over the United States was a
[00:06:56.960] crime. So at that point, Richard Helms,
[00:06:59.840] who ran the CIA and had actually
[00:07:02.160] overseen MK Ultra since 70 or 53 and was
[00:07:05.759] right under Dulles for 15 years before
[00:07:09.120] Dulles was fired by John Kennedy, he
[00:07:11.919] ordered all the records destroyed and a
[00:07:15.919] a reporter named Seymour Hirs in 74
[00:07:18.880] found evidence of the program and it was
[00:07:21.120] a slow drip drip. But when they finally
[00:07:23.360] did all the congressional investigations
[00:07:25.360] that ended in 77,
[00:07:28.240] you know, they realized and admitted we
[00:07:30.400] we have no record of what actually
[00:07:32.400] happened except for some financial
[00:07:34.160] record. So we could say where a lot of
[00:07:36.160] the operations took place under what
[00:07:38.720] oposes but not what actually who the
[00:07:41.919] victims were and how extensive the
[00:07:44.000] experimentation was. So that's why 50
[00:07:47.680] years later, two weeks ago, um this task
[00:07:51.440] force thought, well, maybe now it's time
[00:07:53.599] to look back. And I mean, I'll say it,
[00:07:56.560] you know, I'm a left-wing Democrat, very
[00:07:59.199] liberal, and this task force is um was
[00:08:03.039] authorized by Trump. And Trump uh when
[00:08:06.879] he was inaugurated the second time
[00:08:10.240] announced did a presidential order that
[00:08:13.280] he was going to declassify secrets about
[00:08:16.800] UFOs, the 60s assassinations, MLK, JFK,
[00:08:22.160] RFK, and Malcolm X. Um and there was
[00:08:26.879] going to be this whole effort to finally
[00:08:28.800] reveal the deep state secrets. Let's
[00:08:32.000] forget about Epstein, you know, right?
[00:08:33.839] At least Congresswoman Luna is really
[00:08:36.880] serious about trying to get more
[00:08:38.800] information and trying to find out what
[00:08:40.880] they can do because they've been in
[00:08:42.000] touch with me since the hearing.
[00:08:43.839] >> It's the most remarkable thing that
[00:08:44.959] there's still stuff coming out about it.
[00:08:46.880] >> Yeah.
[00:08:47.519] >> Shows how secretive it was,
[00:08:49.200] >> you know. And they asked me at the
[00:08:50.880] hearing, you know, when I'm on the
[00:08:52.160] record, do you think there's more
[00:08:53.760] records out there? And I said, "Well,
[00:08:55.600] you know, the records that I found were
[00:08:58.160] only found by accident because this Dr.
[00:09:01.120] Lewis Julian West, who they called Jolly
[00:09:03.680] West, who was almost the architect of MK
[00:09:06.320] Ultra, um, he was exposed in 77 as being
[00:09:10.480] a part of it. And he ran the psychiatry
[00:09:13.200] department and neuroscience at UCLA, a
[00:09:15.760] very prominent, you know, school here in
[00:09:18.399] the United States, just down the street
[00:09:19.920] a little bit." And he said, "No, they
[00:09:22.880] asked me, you know, to be involved with
[00:09:24.959] it, of course." And I said, "No, LSD is
[00:09:27.279] too unpredictable and dangerous to be
[00:09:29.360] used on humans. I only use LSD and
[00:09:32.720] animal experimentation." Now, I didn't
[00:09:35.519] even have to prove that was a lie cuz
[00:09:37.120] he'd done lectures where he talked about
[00:09:39.200] human experimentations with LSD in the
[00:09:41.760] 50s before people started realizing how
[00:09:45.519] dangerous it was. But he knew how
[00:09:47.279] dangerous it was. Then he stopped
[00:09:48.959] talking about it. But there's a a paper
[00:09:51.440] record of him. But what he was never
[00:09:54.560] proven was he was actually doing this
[00:09:56.320] experimentation for the CIA, you know,
[00:09:59.680] under their authority and with their
[00:10:02.000] money and then covering it all up. And
[00:10:04.880] he went to his grave in 99,
[00:10:08.240] never being investigated. His denial was
[00:10:11.360] enough. you know, his name never came up
[00:10:13.360] again except when other people like me,
[00:10:15.680] not me because I would ask him and he
[00:10:18.399] would say, "No, of course I would never
[00:10:19.839] do stuff like that." So, he accidentally
[00:10:22.079] left it in his files at the UN at UCLA.
[00:10:25.600] And when I found out he was connected to
[00:10:28.399] this medical clinic in San Francisco
[00:10:31.440] that Manson frequented with his
[00:10:33.440] followers during the same period Manson
[00:10:35.680] transformed from this kind of harmless
[00:10:37.760] ex-con into this monstrous cult leader
[00:10:40.959] who could get the people who followed
[00:10:43.440] him to kill strangers just because he
[00:10:46.160] told them to which was the main
[00:10:48.560] objective of MK Ultra was creating
[00:10:50.560] menuring candidates. people who would
[00:10:52.320] kill on command with no recollection of
[00:10:55.519] being programmed to do it.
[00:10:57.279] >> Everyone says nothing is ever really
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[00:11:42.480] >> Um, that's when I went to UCLA and I
[00:11:46.959] said, I know Dr. West died a year ago.
[00:11:49.920] was he'd been with you guys like 15 or
[00:11:52.720] 20 years. Did he leave his papers? Cuz
[00:11:55.360] usually they do that. They said, "Yeah,
[00:11:57.120] we just haven't processed them yet." And
[00:11:59.120] they had, I think, 200 or 300 boxes. And
[00:12:03.040] at that time, I was writing a magazine
[00:12:04.959] article and I said, "Well, I'm on
[00:12:06.880] deadline." And she's the the special
[00:12:09.200] collections director said, "Oh, sorry.
[00:12:11.519] You know, usually that takes a year or
[00:12:13.360] two and we haven't even started." So, I
[00:12:16.079] did a song and danced and begged and
[00:12:18.399] pleaded and wore her down and she said,
[00:12:21.120] "I'll I'll release a box or two at a
[00:12:23.200] time." And I went to their special
[00:12:26.720] collections uh department under the
[00:12:29.200] library at UCLA every day or three or
[00:12:31.519] four days a week for about two and a
[00:12:33.200] half months just looking for that needle
[00:12:35.040] in the hay stack. And um there's this
[00:12:38.560] famous author named Robert Gotautle who
[00:12:40.560] does these big long heavy books about
[00:12:43.200] Lynden Johnson and presidents and he's
[00:12:46.320] one puliters
[00:12:48.079] and his motto for work is turn every
[00:12:51.120] page um because he says you never know
[00:12:54.800] what you might find in an archive. So
[00:12:56.959] you have to look at every page even if
[00:12:59.040] the file says you know records of my
[00:13:03.120] summer vacation and that's what I did
[00:13:05.600] and in his files two months in you know
[00:13:08.160] I struck gold there were letters
[00:13:11.040] unredacted original letters between West
[00:13:13.519] and Sydney Gotautle from 1953 describing
[00:13:17.040] horrific experiments West was about to
[00:13:19.279] do
[00:13:20.880] telling him this is great you're you're
[00:13:23.200] a wonderful asset we're so glad that you
[00:13:25.600] grasp what we need and what we we want.
[00:13:28.160] And um a year after
[00:13:31.440] designing this program of
[00:13:32.959] experimentation,
[00:13:34.959] uh an airman named Jimmy Shaver with no
[00:13:37.279] criminal record, two children, married
[00:13:40.880] um was found wandering in a in a gravel
[00:13:43.760] pit about uh at that point was at
[00:13:46.959] Lackland Air Force Base in Texas and
[00:13:49.040] about a mile from the base he was
[00:13:51.200] wandering with his shirt off and
[00:13:52.800] scratches all over his body. and he had
[00:13:55.760] just raped and killed a two and a half
[00:13:57.519] year old girl that he had abducted from
[00:14:00.000] a parking lot. Her parents had gone
[00:14:03.040] there on July
[00:14:05.040] 3rd, no 4th, 1954.
[00:14:08.320] And they didn't have air conditioning.
[00:14:09.920] It was hot. And they went to the bar cuz
[00:14:12.399] bars they thought were safe then. Little
[00:14:14.880] town bar. And they let the kids play in
[00:14:16.639] the parking lot while they had a beer.
[00:14:18.560] And the little brother came running
[00:14:20.079] inside and said, "Sherry Joe's gone.
[00:14:21.839] Sher Joe's gone." A man took her. They
[00:14:24.079] found Jimmy and the girl's body,
[00:14:26.320] arrested him, and he said, "I don't know
[00:14:28.560] how I got here. I don't know where I
[00:14:30.639] am." They took him in and charged him.
[00:14:33.839] His wife came to see him, and he didn't
[00:14:36.320] recognize his wife. And for I think it
[00:14:38.480] was 2 weeks, he was described as being
[00:14:40.480] in a fugue state. At trial, West was
[00:14:44.000] assigned to find out what happened. And
[00:14:47.120] what they found out at trial was he was
[00:14:49.120] involved in an experimental program at
[00:14:51.199] the base hospital to cure him of
[00:14:54.160] debilitating migraine headaches. And Wes
[00:14:57.199] said in these letters, I'm an experiment
[00:14:59.120] on my patients who come in for mental
[00:15:01.040] disorders, you know. So it's a long
[00:15:03.839] complicated story, but kind of that's
[00:15:06.560] why I was asked to testify
[00:15:08.399] >> and and and then the theory is that
[00:15:10.160] Charles Manson might have been a CIA.
[00:15:12.000] Then yeah so that was 1954 and then by
[00:15:15.440] 1967
[00:15:17.920] um when Manson was released from prison
[00:15:20.720] West took a sbatical from Oklahoma where
[00:15:23.279] he ran and in from 1956 to 69. He was
[00:15:28.320] ahead. He started their neuroscience uh
[00:15:31.040] program and chaired the psychiatry
[00:15:33.440] department and did the brunt of his
[00:15:35.920] experiments for CIA in the c at the
[00:15:39.360] hospital there and at little places
[00:15:41.440] around the campus. Uh he took a sbatical
[00:15:44.560] in ' 67 and ended up in the hay ashberry
[00:15:47.440] district in the summer of ' 67. At the
[00:15:50.480] same time Manson was kind of directed
[00:15:52.560] there when he was released from prison.
[00:15:54.079] He violated his parole. Supposed to be
[00:15:56.800] here in LA. The next day he went to to
[00:16:00.079] the Bay Area, got a new parole officer
[00:16:03.680] who was doing uh drug research at the
[00:16:06.320] main clinic named Roger Smith. And for
[00:16:08.959] the next year that he became the Manson
[00:16:11.440] we're familiar with. He was breaking the
[00:16:14.000] law, getting arrested, and Smith would
[00:16:15.920] always say, "No, no, just leave him out
[00:16:17.920] and not immediately send him back to
[00:16:19.839] prison, which would normally happen."
[00:16:21.759] West was researching subjects for his MK
[00:16:24.639] Alterra experiments.
[00:16:26.320] >> So, it's a theory. I could only put
[00:16:28.240] Manson and West in the same building,
[00:16:30.959] but I could never put them in the same
[00:16:32.800] room at the same time. Um, but I present
[00:16:36.480] in my book a case which is additional
[00:16:39.920] information about what happened the next
[00:16:41.759] two years as Manson traveled to LA and
[00:16:45.279] escalated his crimes and again was
[00:16:47.600] always released. The police knew exactly
[00:16:49.680] what he was doing. There were strange
[00:16:52.399] people kind of manipulating him and
[00:16:54.560] pushing him towards what ended up being
[00:16:56.720] the Tate Lab Bianca murders. So what I
[00:16:59.279] believe but can't prove yet, but I'm
[00:17:01.120] working on the second book is that he
[00:17:03.360] was probably a product of this program.
[00:17:06.160] I don't know if he was programmed by
[00:17:08.880] these guys to do what he did or if they
[00:17:12.240] experimented with him and then he went
[00:17:14.559] crazy on his own. Um, I showed all my
[00:17:17.760] findings five or six years in to the
[00:17:20.720] authority on MK Ultra. He was a
[00:17:22.720] psychiatrist and a lawyer who taught in
[00:17:25.600] Northern California named Shefflin, Alan
[00:17:27.919] Shefflin. And I'll never forget it. You
[00:17:30.000] know, we were having lunch and it was
[00:17:31.200] like our third meeting and I showed him
[00:17:32.799] my documents and the connections between
[00:17:36.320] Manson and West and this clinic and what
[00:17:38.960] happened with Manson's trajectory for
[00:17:41.440] two years. And I said, "Dr. Shaplin, do
[00:17:43.919] you think there's any chance that this
[00:17:45.840] was a CIA experiment gone wrong? And he
[00:17:49.120] said, absolutely not. It was a CIA
[00:17:51.600] experiment gone right cuz they wanted to
[00:17:55.200] do something. I mean, if you know what a
[00:17:57.679] false flag is or um
[00:18:01.280] they they had another program called
[00:18:03.520] chaos at the same time, which was a CIA
[00:18:06.000] kind of uh surveillance, infiltration,
[00:18:09.280] and provocation program uh that started
[00:18:12.160] the same time uh in ' 67 that the FBI
[00:18:15.440] started something called GoTel Pro. And
[00:18:18.000] both of these federal operations were to
[00:18:20.720] stop what they believed at the time was
[00:18:22.960] a revolution that was about to happen
[00:18:24.960] happen in America because the rise rise
[00:18:27.280] of the black panthers and black
[00:18:28.640] militancy free speech and mostly the
[00:18:31.520] anti-war movement the Vietnam war. So in
[00:18:34.400] 1967 President Lyndon Johnson authorized
[00:18:38.480] the FBI to use co-intel pro to
[00:18:42.080] infiltrate leftist groups and chaos to
[00:18:45.840] do the exact same thing. So they'd get
[00:18:47.760] informants, they'd infiltrate them,
[00:18:49.440] provoke them to commit crimes or to
[00:18:51.360] commit crimes against rival groups. And
[00:18:54.160] during those next two years, all kinds
[00:18:56.480] of murders were happening um that were
[00:19:00.559] the result of chaos in Co-entel Pro and
[00:19:03.840] the Manson murders famously in the
[00:19:06.559] official version where Manson wanted to
[00:19:09.120] ignite a race war and
[00:19:11.360] >> Helter Skelter. Helter Skelter make the
[00:19:13.520] world believe that the blacks were gonna
[00:19:15.520] rise up and take over.
[00:19:17.520] >> And when it didn't happen fast enough,
[00:19:20.080] he had this sudden belief that he had to
[00:19:22.880] do something to ignite it. So he sent
[00:19:24.960] his followers to the house of Roman
[00:19:27.440] Palansky, not knowing who lived there,
[00:19:29.360] just that it was a house where these
[00:19:30.720] very prominent, beautiful
[00:19:33.440] Hollywood people would be and just
[00:19:35.280] slaughter everybody. Um, so it's hard to
[00:19:38.720] kind of tell all that, not sound nuts,
[00:19:41.600] but I um that's for people who don't
[00:19:44.240] know what those three programs are, MK
[00:19:46.640] Ultra, Chaos, and Cointel Pro. They kind
[00:19:49.600] of all merged in 1969. And I think the
[00:19:52.640] result was that Tate Lab Bianca murders,
[00:19:54.880] which a lot of historians say ended the
[00:19:57.600] 60s, you know, and made people terrified
[00:20:00.320] for the first time of hippies. Like they
[00:20:02.880] were no longer peaceful little harmless.
[00:20:05.360] people with love beads and long hair,
[00:20:07.280] but they were monsters who could come
[00:20:08.960] into your house and slice you to a
[00:20:11.039] million bits and write leave blood
[00:20:12.960] writing on your walls.
[00:20:14.480] >> Wow. That is that's a this is a that's a
[00:20:17.039] big thing. This is a whole big thing.
[00:20:18.960] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[00:20:19.760] >> So So it would be that they would have
[00:20:21.919] been giving him I mean I mean is the
[00:20:23.600] strongest evidence what what you were
[00:20:25.280] saying that he kept committing these
[00:20:27.120] crimes. He'd go to prison for a second
[00:20:28.720] and be straight out. He was out on
[00:20:30.080] parole all the time
[00:20:31.360] >> from from the day he was released. He
[00:20:34.080] wasn't allowed to leave Los Angeles
[00:20:35.760] County. He went up to the Bay Area and
[00:20:38.960] showed up at a parole officer here and
[00:20:40.880] he said, "I'm Charles Manson. I want my
[00:20:42.720] parole here." And I have the letters. I
[00:20:46.000] also see I got all these documents
[00:20:47.440] through a lot of Freedom of Information
[00:20:48.960] Act requests, which weren't easy. I
[00:20:51.919] mean, I would I would do the request and
[00:20:53.840] then they'd say no. And then I'd have to
[00:20:55.600] get my father who was a lawyer, a tax
[00:20:57.679] attorney, but he knew law. And I got him
[00:20:59.440] obsessed with it and other people to
[00:21:01.520] write better legal foyers and just beat
[00:21:04.480] him down, beat him down until you
[00:21:06.159] started getting information. So I found
[00:21:08.159] a letter from the head of the parole
[00:21:09.760] office writing the head of the LA parole
[00:21:11.679] office saying, "This man showed up at
[00:21:13.840] our office and he's in violation and he
[00:21:16.000] thinks he can be represented here. You
[00:21:18.799] should take him back." And then all of a
[00:21:20.480] sudden there's missing letters and then
[00:21:22.240] he's just assigned to this Roger Smith
[00:21:24.559] who's got this really spooky background
[00:21:27.360] um who's working out of the same medical
[00:21:29.919] clinic as as Jolly West doing his
[00:21:33.120] research on drug use and violence
[00:21:35.919] >> and at the same time managing you know
[00:21:40.480] uh Manson's freedom and he's the
[00:21:43.679] authority that Manson has to go see once
[00:21:45.679] a week and by the end of the summer of '
[00:21:48.640] 67 7 when Roger was actually opening in
[00:21:53.200] late ' 67 early 68 his amphetamine
[00:21:56.480] research project in the clinic he had
[00:21:58.720] Manson see him there the same place that
[00:22:01.440] all this stuff was happening this
[00:22:02.880] cauldron instead of in the official
[00:22:04.880] building downtown
[00:22:06.799] >> so I mean there's a lot more background
[00:22:09.120] and stuff but I know we don't have too
[00:22:10.880] much time so I'm trying to just give you
[00:22:12.320] the brush strokes
[00:22:13.440] >> the the point being that he was treated
[00:22:15.039] completely differently
[00:22:15.760] >> differently oh yeah he was an anomaly
[00:22:17.919] >> and worked very first with these two
[00:22:19.200] people who we know were involved with
[00:22:20.640] the experiments.
[00:22:21.760] >> Right. Right. And um then when he got to
[00:22:25.120] Los Angeles um and was at the Spawn
[00:22:28.559] Ranch isolated there and really, you
[00:22:30.720] know, planning for Helter Skelter to
[00:22:32.720] happen, they had automatic weapons,
[00:22:36.400] underage girls, uh runaways, drugs, and
[00:22:40.080] the police had surveillance. I got all
[00:22:42.559] the reports. They knew this. Manson had
[00:22:45.360] a a a machine gun and a carbine. I don't
[00:22:48.159] know guns, but I you know, whatever
[00:22:49.760] those bullets are that you feed it, fell
[00:22:51.840] off the jeep and the police picked it
[00:22:54.720] up, the sheriff's department. And he
[00:22:56.799] went to the sheriff's department and he
[00:22:58.400] said, "I want my carbine back and they
[00:23:01.280] gave it to him." And he's federal
[00:23:02.720] polite. You're not allowed to have a
[00:23:04.159] knife, let alone a pistol, and this is
[00:23:06.240] for a machine gun.
[00:23:07.919] >> Who's covering their tracks? Because
[00:23:09.440] Congress seemed to want to know more
[00:23:10.880] about this. You mean now or
[00:23:12.880] >> I guess even I I guess part of me is
[00:23:14.640] wondering as you're speaking I'm
[00:23:15.679] wondering what do you do with somebody
[00:23:17.520] who seems to have committed these
[00:23:18.880] horrible crimes against humanity.
[00:23:20.400] They've just given people experimental
[00:23:22.159] drugs when they didn't even realize it.
[00:23:23.600] They they've done them potentially
[00:23:25.039] Charles Manson hoping he'll kill people.
[00:23:26.799] But they've done it under the CIA.
[00:23:29.760] >> Yeah.
[00:23:30.159] >> So they've sort of been you know do you
[00:23:31.679] go to prison? What happens to you?
[00:23:33.679] >> You mean the people who do it?
[00:23:35.600] >> Yeah. Cuz they were they were working
[00:23:36.799] for the CIA.
[00:23:37.840] >> Yeah. It's interesting. Everything is so
[00:23:39.520] compartmentalized within those worlds.
[00:23:42.159] So there's deniability. So some people
[00:23:44.640] like Roger Smith might have only known
[00:23:46.799] that he had to keep this guy from being
[00:23:49.280] sent to prison and make him be in
[00:23:51.520] certain places. He might not have known
[00:23:53.120] any more than that. I mean another one
[00:23:55.520] of my big moments and I don't think
[00:23:58.000] we've talked about it but this took
[00:23:59.600] embarrassingly a long time for me to
[00:24:02.000] report and turn into a book. 20 years
[00:24:04.080] almost to the day of it began as a
[00:24:06.240] magazine assignment was supposed to be 3
[00:24:08.159] months on the 30th anniversary of the
[00:24:11.600] murders. A movie magazine asked me to do
[00:24:13.600] a think piece about it and I fell down a
[00:24:16.640] rabbit hole and turned in I finally got
[00:24:18.960] a collaborator the last year who pulled
[00:24:20.880] me out of the weeds and I think we did a
[00:24:23.279] good book together and turned it in
[00:24:25.520] literally a year to the day I'd gotten
[00:24:27.279] the magazine. It's 20 years to the day
[00:24:29.279] that I got it. But, you know, so there's
[00:24:31.840] moments that just, you know, made
[00:24:34.799] everything worthwhile cuz so much else
[00:24:37.200] is just lost time
[00:24:39.039] >> where you're going down bad roads that
[00:24:41.600] don't lead anywhere. And I can't tell
[00:24:43.039] you how much wasted time there was. But,
[00:24:46.000] uh, another moment I think that kind of
[00:24:48.159] answers the last question you asked was
[00:24:50.799] I took all my documents of this guy
[00:24:52.640] named Lewis Watnik. He was a retired
[00:24:55.360] deputy DA here in Los Angeles who had
[00:24:57.760] become a judior court judge during that
[00:25:00.960] period that Manson was free. So he saw
[00:25:03.520] Manson as a judge on just a traffic
[00:25:06.559] violation. Um, but I went to see him
[00:25:09.520] because I needed to talk to somebody who
[00:25:11.520] could speak with the knowledge of how
[00:25:13.360] things were done in ' 67,68 69 and I
[00:25:17.039] laid out all the documents that the
[00:25:19.039] arrest documents that accumulated from
[00:25:21.039] Manson and the release stuff one after
[00:25:23.760] another after another. And this guy's
[00:25:25.360] dying. He's on a um oxygen machine. I
[00:25:28.240] think he had throat or lung cancer and
[00:25:30.640] he's talking in a rasp. And I had a tape
[00:25:33.279] recorder. Um, and he's wheezing and he's
[00:25:37.600] looking at all. He goes, "This is
[00:25:38.799] chicken This is all chicken shit."
[00:25:41.120] What do you mean, Mr. What? A chicken
[00:25:42.559] He goes, "This is They wanted him
[00:25:44.640] out. Somebody wanted him out." And he
[00:25:48.559] said he was more valuable outside than
[00:25:51.200] inside.
[00:25:51.919] >> Manson.
[00:25:52.559] >> Manson. And I said, "Who's they? Who's
[00:25:54.559] they?" And he goes, "Oh, that's your
[00:25:56.480] job." And I said, "I know, but you you
[00:25:58.960] knew what they did back then." And he
[00:26:00.400] goes, "Well, I we weren't told. We knew
[00:26:02.799] there were informants that were
[00:26:04.159] protected, but you have to look at the
[00:26:06.400] FBI. You have to look at the LAPD, the
[00:26:08.960] sheriff's department, every agency,
[00:26:12.000] every federal agency and state agency.
[00:26:14.159] He could have been an informant for
[00:26:15.520] anyone. But the one thing I can tell you
[00:26:17.200] with absolute certainty is he was he was
[00:26:21.200] out there because someone needed him to
[00:26:23.120] do what he was doing." And he goes, "I
[00:26:25.120] hope it wasn't to do what he ended up
[00:26:27.200] doing." You know, Sharon Tay was 8 and a
[00:26:29.200] half months pregnant and they stabbed
[00:26:31.200] her to death while she's crying, begging
[00:26:33.840] them to save her baby. She didn't care
[00:26:35.440] about herself and begging, you know,
[00:26:36.880] calling out to her mother.
[00:26:38.320] >> How do we know that? Is that the the
[00:26:39.679] one?
[00:26:40.080] >> Well, that's the testimony of, you know,
[00:26:42.159] the the killers subsequently after after
[00:26:45.600] they'd all been convicted and sent to
[00:26:47.360] prison. Well, actually, no. They had a a
[00:26:50.000] death penalty phase. So when you're
[00:26:51.520] convicted, I don't know if it's the same
[00:26:52.640] way in the UK courts, but in a death
[00:26:55.919] penalty case, you have your guilt phase
[00:26:58.320] of the trial where the jury decides
[00:27:00.240] whether or not you did it.
[00:27:02.159] >> So they were all a judge guilty all
[00:27:05.360] meaning five people, four people. Sharon
[00:27:07.760] or Charlie Manson, Susan Atkins,
[00:27:10.640] Patricia Quenwinkle, and Leslie Van
[00:27:12.320] Halton. Um Tex Watson was tried
[00:27:15.200] separately. So once they were judged
[00:27:17.600] guilty after the longest trial in the
[00:27:19.600] history of uh criminal courts in Los
[00:27:21.600] Angeles was more than a year. Then they
[00:27:23.679] have the death penalty phase where the
[00:27:25.919] same jury has to listen to testimony
[00:27:28.640] from psychiatrists and you know do these
[00:27:31.840] people deserve to die for what they did.
[00:27:34.960] And during that guilt phase Manson had
[00:27:37.840] such control over his followers that at
[00:27:41.360] that point none of them had testified.
[00:27:43.039] They hadn't even put on a defense during
[00:27:44.720] the guilt phase. But during the death
[00:27:46.159] penalty phase, each of the Manson women
[00:27:48.400] took the stand to say, "We did it. We
[00:27:51.360] killed them." And they described in
[00:27:53.360] horrific detail killing, you know, the
[00:27:56.640] five people at the Tate House and then
[00:27:58.399] the two people the next night at the
[00:27:59.919] Lianas,
[00:28:01.679] you know, say Sharon or Susan Atkins
[00:28:04.320] said, "Yeah, Sharon was begging for her
[00:28:06.399] the life of her baby." And I said, "I
[00:28:09.120] don't care about your baby, bitch." And
[00:28:10.880] I stabbed her in in the womb and I
[00:28:13.440] tasted her blood and it tasted tasted
[00:28:16.480] sticky and sweet and I liked it. And
[00:28:19.279] then they asked Patricia Crrenle what
[00:28:21.279] it's like to stab a woman Abigail Fulier
[00:28:24.720] 28 times. And she said, "I don't know.
[00:28:28.320] It's just like she was there and I did
[00:28:30.480] it." And you know, they objectified
[00:28:32.640] them. They weren't talking about people.
[00:28:34.480] They were talking about objects. So they
[00:28:37.039] admitted to all that only because they
[00:28:39.919] wanted to get Manson free. So they said,
[00:28:41.679] "We did this on our own. Charlie had
[00:28:44.320] nothing to do with it. We wanted to kill
[00:28:46.399] them. We enjoyed killing."
[00:28:48.320] >> They're still in the cult at that point.
[00:28:50.320] >> And then it took about 10 years for them
[00:28:52.880] to be snapped out of it. So Van Hound,
[00:28:57.039] Kren, the three main women, Van Hound,
[00:28:59.039] Krenwinkle, and uh Atkins, who went to
[00:29:01.840] prison for these murders. It was like
[00:29:05.279] seven to 10 years for each of them to
[00:29:07.279] all of a sudden have a moment of clarity
[00:29:09.120] and say, "Oh my god, what did I do?" I
[00:29:11.360] mean, it's like waking up from a
[00:29:12.799] nightmare and you realized who you were
[00:29:15.200] then and what you'd done and you have to
[00:29:17.360] live with that. And there's a great
[00:29:19.600] interview of Susan Atkins after that
[00:29:22.960] saying on camera in a prison interview,
[00:29:25.840] "I still can't get Charlie out of my
[00:29:27.840] head. I hear his voice. His thoughts are
[00:29:30.640] my thoughts. He's still telling me to do
[00:29:32.640] stuff and I just can't get him. And
[00:29:34.320] that's like 10 years later. I mean,
[00:29:36.240] that's serious brainwashing programming.
[00:29:39.039] >> Do do you think that they were also
[00:29:41.360] given these drugs and things?
[00:29:42.480] >> I think Oh, no. I think they were
[00:29:43.679] victims. And you know, only one of them
[00:29:47.120] is still in prison. Patricia Kenwinkle
[00:29:49.200] Atkins died in prison about 10 years ago
[00:29:51.679] of brain cancer.
[00:29:53.919] Uh, and Ben Hton got released parole.
[00:29:57.039] She's the first one of them that were
[00:29:59.360] involved in Tate Laiana to get parrolled
[00:30:01.520] about two years ago. Um, I mean, I could
[00:30:04.960] never, you know, if I were asked to go
[00:30:06.720] to a parole hearing and testify, I don't
[00:30:09.520] know if I'd do it because I can say
[00:30:11.440] absolutely,
[00:30:13.120] but I believe more likely than not they
[00:30:16.399] were victims of the CIA and Manson.
[00:30:18.880] >> So, they were slipped drugs.
[00:30:20.480] >> Yeah. Yeah. Because that's what Well,
[00:30:22.480] they knew they were doing drugs that
[00:30:23.919] Manson was giving them, but they didn't
[00:30:25.440] know what was happening to them. So
[00:30:26.880] Manson was doing what was called
[00:30:28.240] patterning. Um, which is what they did,
[00:30:30.799] the CIA was doing, especially this one
[00:30:33.440] doctor in Canada at the McGill Hospital
[00:30:36.960] where he would give people LSD
[00:30:39.360] consecutive days for months at a time
[00:30:41.760] and then play recordings to them over
[00:30:44.480] and over again to repattern their
[00:30:46.320] brains. And um, Manson did that at the
[00:30:49.200] Spawn Ranch. He got them down there
[00:30:50.720] about a year before the murders, was
[00:30:52.880] giving them LSAD every day and then
[00:30:56.240] doing weird like having himself
[00:30:58.559] crucified in front of them and telling
[00:31:00.640] them he was Jesus and the Satan and just
[00:31:03.520] again and he never took the LSD.
[00:31:06.240] >> They took the LSD and then he would
[00:31:08.080] order them all kinds of, you know, mind
[00:31:10.480] games. Told men to have sex with other
[00:31:13.039] men who weren't gay. the women to have
[00:31:15.520] sex with each other and everything was
[00:31:18.559] it was called DD dep
[00:31:21.679] now I forget the exact word for it. Um
[00:31:25.360] >> West invented it. It was uh
[00:31:29.520] I wish I I had my notes with me. I
[00:31:32.080] should have
[00:31:33.840] DDD and MK Ultra. If you Google that um
[00:31:37.440] >> or even Louisis J West
[00:31:40.831] [clears throat]
[00:31:41.200] >> Chaos the Manson murders it comes up
[00:31:43.120] with but it doesn't say DDD as in three
[00:31:44.960] letters.
[00:31:45.519] >> It's three letters. It's it's the
[00:31:47.919] desensitation disassociation something
[00:31:51.039] else. And it was like Manson had all of
[00:31:53.200] a sudden become a scientist and you and
[00:31:55.360] knew how to use this very sophisticated
[00:31:58.320] technology to get people isolated,
[00:32:01.440] desensitized them while giving them
[00:32:03.600] drugs and then basically hypnotized
[00:32:05.279] them. I mean Manson studied hypnosis in
[00:32:07.760] prison. Danny TJo, this actor uh
[00:32:11.440] released a memoir a year or two ago and
[00:32:13.279] he said that Manson hypnotized him in
[00:32:15.279] prison in the early 60s.
[00:32:17.120] >> He's that guy. He's in like every film,
[00:32:18.640] isn't he?
[00:32:18.960] >> Yeah. Yeah. The character actor. I think
[00:32:20.640] he was a gang member at something, you
[00:32:22.880] know, a real rough Latino guy who um you
[00:32:26.320] know went good and became a macho actor,
[00:32:28.960] character actor.
[00:32:30.480] >> Some depersonalization derealization
[00:32:32.799] disorder.
[00:32:33.519] >> Yeah. Yeah. And uh he said that Manson
[00:32:36.720] hypnotized him when they were I think at
[00:32:38.559] Terminal Island in LA in the early 60s
[00:32:41.679] and had him believe that he was on an
[00:32:44.399] LSD trip when he wasn't on LSD.
[00:32:47.120] >> Wow. Um,
[00:32:48.880] >> so Manson seems in this telling, in this
[00:32:51.600] in this part of the story, he he's
[00:32:54.000] slipping drugs to people. He's giving
[00:32:55.360] them the bit of the drug. He's making
[00:32:56.320] them do stuff and he's hypnotizing. He's
[00:32:57.919] in charge.
[00:32:58.720] >> But then to what extent was was he aware
[00:33:00.880] of what might have been happening?
[00:33:01.919] >> What was happening to him? That's the
[00:33:03.039] thing that's the thing where I hit my
[00:33:04.159] head against the wall. Was he
[00:33:06.960] aware that was he at one point working
[00:33:10.159] with them to do this? And then it's
[00:33:12.320] something Wes reported in 19, this is
[00:33:15.679] something I think one of my best moments
[00:33:17.440] at the hearing cuz I wanted them to know
[00:33:19.279] this. In 1955 to 56, Wes submitted a
[00:33:23.840] paper to Sydney Gotley, the head of MK
[00:33:27.200] Ultra, and said he had accomplished
[00:33:30.640] kind of like one of the most important
[00:33:33.440] goals of the program. He had learned how
[00:33:35.360] to using LSD and hypnotism and other
[00:33:37.919] drugs. This that's what he says in the
[00:33:39.679] letter. I can take a true memory from a
[00:33:43.840] a subject without their awareness and
[00:33:46.320] replace it with a fictitious memory,
[00:33:49.519] something that never happened and make
[00:33:51.279] them believe that happened and that's
[00:33:53.519] permanent. He goes, I can replace uh
[00:33:56.320] true memories with false memories. I
[00:33:58.080] mean, when you can do that to a person,
[00:34:00.640] that's like if you had dinner at El
[00:34:02.880] Coyote last night and he says, "No, I
[00:34:05.840] want him to think that he was in Arizona
[00:34:08.960] interviewing Frankie Munz last
[00:34:10.828] [laughter] night." Or or I'll erase your
[00:34:14.159] Frankie Munz experience and and you'll
[00:34:17.359] never know it. I mean, then you have
[00:34:19.040] control of the person's soul.
[00:34:20.560] >> But is that possible?
[00:34:21.919] >> He said it was. So, here's what was
[00:34:24.399] important at the hearing. What I found
[00:34:26.480] was West sent that report in and I found
[00:34:30.000] that among his papers and his files and
[00:34:32.560] then I found the same [snorts] report
[00:34:34.320] that was shared with Congress at the
[00:34:36.320] last hearings in 1977
[00:34:39.599] >> and they gave them a dummy of that
[00:34:41.679] report where they changed his finding
[00:34:44.480] and instead of saying it's what he had
[00:34:46.399] accomplished, it's what he wanted to
[00:34:49.040] accomplish.
[00:34:49.839] >> Wow. And in it they change him where
[00:34:52.800] where they said the plans are to
[00:34:55.440] possibly use LSD and hypnosis, but that
[00:34:58.320] has not been done yet. They completely
[00:35:00.480] lie. They gave them false documents. So
[00:35:02.800] I said to the committee two weeks ago,
[00:35:05.920] this is what they did in 1977. We don't
[00:35:08.400] know that if you're starting to get new
[00:35:10.000] records again, they're going to do the
[00:35:11.359] same thing to you. You h you can't trust
[00:35:13.599] any you can't take anything at face
[00:35:15.280] value. The problem is I don't know how
[00:35:17.440] to tell them where to get the good
[00:35:19.280] stuff. Except I I did tell them
[00:35:21.119] actually. I said you can do what I did.
[00:35:23.200] You can dig through people's papers and
[00:35:26.079] send your staffs to dead scientists cuz
[00:35:28.720] everybody's dead now who participated in
[00:35:30.800] this. But you can send them to their
[00:35:32.560] children and grandchildren say, "Hey,
[00:35:34.160] did grandpa leave a box in the attic or
[00:35:36.720] something." But you know, that's a wild
[00:35:38.240] goose chase. And I got really
[00:35:40.800] lucky when I found the papers I found. I
[00:35:43.119] I wouldn't have had a book if I hadn't
[00:35:44.400] found those papers, I don't think.
[00:35:46.480] >> Um, and it was really a crazy hunch, you
[00:35:50.079] know, there was something in my gut. I
[00:35:51.760] just thought there's too many
[00:35:54.240] coincidences with this guy West where he
[00:35:56.560] was, what he was doing, then he gets
[00:35:58.160] exposed and he said he had nothing to do
[00:35:59.839] with it. I just feel like I'm going to
[00:36:01.680] find something in there and I almost
[00:36:03.280] feel like I wished it
[00:36:04.800] >> into being. And of course, I was
[00:36:06.000] terrified that it wasn't authentic. And
[00:36:08.079] I took it immediately to um a guy named
[00:36:11.280] John Marx who wrote the who who was a
[00:36:13.119] whistleblower who found financial
[00:36:15.440] documents in 1975
[00:36:18.400] uh that had been accidentally preserved
[00:36:20.400] by the CIA and not destroyed. And they
[00:36:22.480] were the records that showed where stuff
[00:36:24.640] had happened and how much had been spent
[00:36:27.040] and some of the doctors involved but
[00:36:28.880] they didn't have what the substance of
[00:36:31.119] the experiments were. And I took him to
[00:36:33.359] him and he said, "This is the most
[00:36:36.560] he" He said, "This is pl practically
[00:36:38.320] there's one nine-page letter between
[00:36:40.079] West and Gotley from June of 53." He
[00:36:42.320] goes, "This is a blueprint for the
[00:36:44.160] entire operation. Nothing's redacted.
[00:36:46.800] It's like a gold mine." He said, cuz he
[00:36:48.800] wrote a book called The Search for the
[00:36:50.640] Manurion Kennedy that came out in 78.
[00:36:52.800] Really, the first book about MK Ultra,
[00:36:55.280] he said, "If I had this document and the
[00:36:57.280] other ones he showed, my whole book
[00:36:58.560] would be different." I said, "Well,
[00:37:00.320] that's what I've got to do." And he
[00:37:01.440] goes, "Well, I'll leave you with a
[00:37:02.560] warning. If you do that book, your life
[00:37:04.640] will never be the same." And I'm like,
[00:37:05.920] "Nobody's going to kill me." Go, "No,
[00:37:07.440] that's not what I'm talking about." He
[00:37:08.640] goes, "You're going to be bombarded for
[00:37:10.960] the rest of your life with people who
[00:37:12.880] think they were MK Ultra victims. Either
[00:37:15.839] were or are now." And that's exactly
[00:37:18.560] what happens.
[00:37:19.280] >> You're getting emails all the time.
[00:37:20.800] >> Yeah. Yeah. After the hearing, usually,
[00:37:23.040] I mean, the book came out six years ago.
[00:37:25.040] Usually, I get two or three a week.
[00:37:27.119] >> Whoa. and sometimes a lot more if I do a
[00:37:29.359] a podcast or something. But after the
[00:37:31.520] hearing, I've been getting about 15 a
[00:37:34.079] day for the last two weeks, some days
[00:37:36.320] 30.
[00:37:36.960] >> What percentage do you take uh
[00:37:38.640] seriously?
[00:37:39.119] >> Pardon me.
[00:37:39.680] >> What percentage of them do you take
[00:37:40.880] seriously?
[00:37:41.440] >> Unfortunately, I hate to say this, but
[00:37:43.280] it's the truth. I think most of them, if
[00:37:46.720] not all of them, are sadly mentally ill
[00:37:49.920] people who are looking for a reason why
[00:37:52.480] they're ill. And all of a sudden, they
[00:37:54.560] have something to blame it on. And then
[00:37:56.800] they can say, "Oh, it's not because I'm
[00:38:00.400] chromosically challenged or gen. It's
[00:38:02.880] something the government has done."
[00:38:04.400] >> Chromosomeically challenged is a way of
[00:38:06.160] putting it.
[00:38:06.480] >> I just made that up. I don't even know
[00:38:07.599] if that makes any sense.
[00:38:09.119] >> Very PC way.
[00:38:10.320] >> I have no idea.
[00:38:11.359] >> I'm just one of those guys. I'm
[00:38:12.240] chromosomically challenged. [laughter]
[00:38:14.000] >> Maybe we can coin that.
[00:38:15.280] >> Yeah, I like that. But no, I feel I mean
[00:38:17.359] most of them I answer but I you know
[00:38:20.800] >> I basically say you know my research and
[00:38:23.440] reporting stops in 197374
[00:38:27.599] and you know 6 years ago the majority of
[00:38:30.320] the people who wrote me thought they
[00:38:31.760] were experimented on all the way back
[00:38:33.680] then but they're all dying if they're
[00:38:35.680] not dead. So now it's people who think
[00:38:37.599] it's happening right now
[00:38:39.440] >> and there are a lot of and I I that's
[00:38:41.119] another question that I was asked I
[00:38:43.119] think three times at the hearing. do I
[00:38:44.960] think it's still going on now? And I had
[00:38:47.920] to say, I don't know. I said, I believe
[00:38:51.280] that the CIA lied in 1977 at the last
[00:38:54.800] hearing when they said they hadn't. They
[00:38:56.720] went up there and their strategy was
[00:38:59.599] admit we did this, admit it was a
[00:39:02.240] horrible thing to do to people, were
[00:39:04.560] ashamed of it, and were willing to pay
[00:39:06.400] reparations. They made all these false
[00:39:08.320] promises about finding victims, giving
[00:39:10.800] them lifetime medical care, and paying
[00:39:12.720] for their medical care the rest of their
[00:39:14.160] lives. They never did that. And the
[00:39:15.839] government, I was so pissed off, it's in
[00:39:17.440] the book, allowed them not to there not
[00:39:20.720] to be an investigation afterward to find
[00:39:22.800] victims. But the other thing they had to
[00:39:25.200] do was say everything was a waste. You
[00:39:27.920] know, they allowed themselves to look
[00:39:29.440] foolish. like yeah the the Washington
[00:39:32.000] Post had a headline the gang that
[00:39:33.839] couldn't spray spray straight because
[00:39:36.079] some of the experiments in the safe
[00:39:37.760] houses where they would take over an
[00:39:39.359] apartment in San Francisco or New York
[00:39:42.000] Lord Johnson in there by prostitutes
[00:39:44.000] they would spray LSD into the air and
[00:39:47.359] see if people would inhale it and then
[00:39:50.400] so um they said that nothing had been
[00:39:53.280] effective nothing had worked not only
[00:39:55.760] had it worked it had been extremely
[00:39:57.440] successful but they didn't want the
[00:39:58.960] world to know that because they wanted
[00:40:00.320] to keep doing it. So my answer is I
[00:40:02.960] believe
[00:40:04.640] >> most likely yeah it still exists under
[00:40:07.200] different names and and you know they
[00:40:09.040] could be using much higher more advanced
[00:40:12.000] technology now you know with
[00:40:15.040] >> computer internet way you know way all
[00:40:18.079] the scientific that I'm really bad
[00:40:20.240] at talking They'd be messing with
[00:40:21.520] people's like brain cells now, wouldn't
[00:40:23.280] they? Oh, yeah. Neurons and things.
[00:40:25.119] >> Yeah. Yeah. So, so my So, I want to
[00:40:28.720] treat each person that writes me with
[00:40:30.320] respect and say, you know, they actually
[00:40:32.079] could be, but I said, I'm not the one
[00:40:34.079] who can help you because you need to
[00:40:35.839] speak to somebody who knows what's going
[00:40:37.760] on now. And I don't I'm really I I I
[00:40:40.480] wish I could help cuz you don't know,
[00:40:42.400] you know, how ill these people are. Some
[00:40:44.160] people,
[00:40:45.839] one kid who's been writing me about four
[00:40:47.839] years, you know, threatens to kill
[00:40:49.520] himself all the time. And I don't know
[00:40:51.119] what to do with that. You know, I I've
[00:40:52.640] told him I, you know, I'm not a doctor.
[00:40:54.320] I don't know. I Please find someone in
[00:40:56.240] your family and talk to them. And my
[00:40:58.480] family's trying to kill me. And the
[00:41:00.319] other thing is every time there's an
[00:41:01.760] assassination or some mass killing, I
[00:41:04.240] look to see if they're one of my
[00:41:06.079] followers on my social media because I
[00:41:07.920] don't that's why I'm real careful also.
[00:41:09.760] I mean, nobody has told me they're going
[00:41:11.280] to kill somebody else.
[00:41:12.800] If that happens, I don't know what I do
[00:41:14.400] with that. I might have to turn it over
[00:41:16.240] >> probably. Yeah.
[00:41:17.280] >> Yeah. But that hasn't happened yet. It's
[00:41:19.040] just um But Mark's told me that in 19 or
[00:41:23.359] 2000. He said when my book came out in
[00:41:26.319] 78, he goes, "I had people camping
[00:41:28.640] outside my house cuz they were desperate
[00:41:31.280] to see me cuz they think I'm the one
[00:41:33.119] that can help them find their truth."
[00:41:34.960] Mhm.
[00:41:35.440] >> And luckily, I mean, a couple people
[00:41:37.599] haven't showed up at my house, but they
[00:41:39.200] found my I thought private phone number
[00:41:41.520] and called and stuff. And um more I
[00:41:44.640] mean, luckily, that's maybe a good thing
[00:41:46.079] about the internet. I just get emails
[00:41:47.760] and emails and emails.
[00:41:49.680] >> Yeah,
[00:41:50.079] >> man. The the the I guess
[00:41:52.960] >> this is so complicated because for for
[00:41:55.119] years, I think people always saying
[00:41:56.560] things are conspiracy theories and
[00:41:58.400] anything like that doesn't seem to go on
[00:42:00.240] and this is incontroversible proof that
[00:42:02.240] it does. And then I want to understand
[00:42:05.359] then, you know, Congress is trying to
[00:42:07.040] find out what's going on. So it's not
[00:42:08.960] that they don't know. So then who is I
[00:42:10.800] guess the CIA and are these the people
[00:42:12.560] who know potentially about aliens and
[00:42:14.480] things? Would the president even know
[00:42:16.000] about all of this stuff? Like who are
[00:42:17.440] these shadowy people?
[00:42:18.880] >> Well, what's interesting is when this
[00:42:21.280] was active, supposedly the presidents
[00:42:23.920] didn't know about it. So, we had
[00:42:25.440] Eisenhower, then we had um Kennedy, then
[00:42:28.960] we had Well, Johnson knew about it
[00:42:31.040] because Johnson made it a point to find
[00:42:33.440] out what we could do to stop what again
[00:42:35.680] he [clears throat] thought was going to
[00:42:36.400] be a revolution.
[00:42:37.040] >> If he knew about it, Kennedy must have
[00:42:38.160] known about it.
[00:42:38.720] >> Well, Kennedy died, you know, in ' 63
[00:42:41.520] and it was I don't think supposedly they
[00:42:46.240] wouldn't tell him because he would have
[00:42:48.160] stopped it. Mhm.
[00:42:49.520] >> And the head So when when Kennedy fired
[00:42:52.960] Dulles, you know, about a year before he
[00:42:55.200] was assassinated, the new CIA director
[00:42:58.079] who I think was Mcome, he never knew
[00:43:00.960] about it. He ran the CIA and they kept
[00:43:03.200] it a secret from him. It was so
[00:43:05.359] compartmentalized cuz they knew what
[00:43:06.880] they had an inspector general and he
[00:43:09.119] said, "What we're doing is an illegal
[00:43:10.960] operation. We need [clears throat] to,
[00:43:13.920] you know, figure out how to stop doing
[00:43:16.640] this." I know we've begun. I can't
[00:43:18.480] remember what this memo is. It's
[00:43:19.760] amazing. But that guy all of a sudden
[00:43:22.240] he's not the inspector general anymore.
[00:43:24.720] >> So, you know, some people said Delos was
[00:43:26.800] more powerful than each of the
[00:43:28.240] presidents that he was a CIA director
[00:43:30.480] under. And you know, um
[00:43:32.000] >> so they might know about UFOs, for
[00:43:33.520] example.
[00:43:34.720] >> Yeah. Yeah, you know, um
[00:43:37.440] it's weird cuz when I went up for the
[00:43:39.040] hearings, I went about 3 or 4 days early
[00:43:41.839] because there was a disclosure
[00:43:43.359] conference at the capital by these very
[00:43:46.319] respectable former
[00:43:48.960] um elected officials who aren't elected
[00:43:51.839] now or staffers who have started this
[00:43:54.640] very kind of buttoned up sober
[00:43:57.440] disclosure group
[00:43:59.119] >> and I think they're called disclosure
[00:44:01.200] something something and they had an
[00:44:02.960] authorized conference in the capital
[00:44:04.960] building for a whole day and about 10
[00:44:08.480] different senators in Congress people
[00:44:10.319] spoke to them. It wasn't a hearing.
[00:44:11.839] Nobody took an oath just you know what
[00:44:15.359] do we expect the government to tell us
[00:44:17.520] if they're going to tell us how do we
[00:44:19.119] tell that kind of thing and they invited
[00:44:21.440] me there just because they wanted me to
[00:44:23.040] be present. Um, I said, "I don't know
[00:44:25.440] anything about this, but I'll come.
[00:44:27.280] Sure." You know, um, I was going to I
[00:44:29.280] just came a day earlier than I would
[00:44:30.880] have. And in the middle of it, I left to
[00:44:34.560] meet with the Democratic staff of the
[00:44:36.800] committee that was going to be
[00:44:38.480] questioning me a week later. And on the
[00:44:41.839] way, I'm not supposed to tell this, but
[00:44:43.680] whatever. On the way to the meeting, the
[00:44:46.480] staffer for the congressperson said,
[00:44:48.400] "Um,
[00:44:49.920] you you're coming from the disclosure
[00:44:51.520] conference, right?" I said, "Yeah, how'd
[00:44:53.440] you know?" He goes, "Well, we all work
[00:44:54.960] together. We know everything that's
[00:44:56.240] going on." Because, you know, they had
[00:44:58.240] all been colleagues at one point because
[00:45:00.720] a lot of them are former congressional
[00:45:02.880] staffers or members. And I go, "Yeah,
[00:45:05.520] yeah." He goes, "Well, what'd you think
[00:45:06.560] of it?" I go, "I don't know. It's over
[00:45:07.760] my head." He goes, "Well, what do you
[00:45:08.800] think about UFOs?" And I said,
[00:45:10.319] "Honestly,
[00:45:12.000] I'm uh agnostic on UFOs. I keep an open
[00:45:15.359] mind. I can't go down those rabbit holes
[00:45:18.720] cuz I'm trying to do a second book."
[00:45:20.720] >> Yeah. and I can't keep up with all my
[00:45:22.720] reporting on, you know, murder and CIA
[00:45:25.200] and FBI and government If I go
[00:45:27.920] into the UFO area, it's too much of a
[00:45:30.400] distraction. So, I read the headlines
[00:45:32.319] and I listen to people, but I don't
[00:45:35.040] listen closely. And he goes, "Oh, well,
[00:45:38.240] if you knew what we knew." I'm like, "We
[00:45:40.800] what?" He goes, "You know, I'm the head
[00:45:43.920] of staff for Congress person so and so."
[00:45:47.440] I'm like, "Yeah." And he goes, "And we
[00:45:49.040] go into skiffs." And I don't know if a
[00:45:51.200] skiff is a place where uh elected
[00:45:54.560] officials like senators and congress
[00:45:56.400] people are showed classified material.
[00:45:59.200] It's a safe place and it's like a
[00:46:01.920] literal room in like a catacomb in the
[00:46:04.400] capital or the white house and they're
[00:46:06.480] shown highly secret documents. So this
[00:46:09.119] guy was probably this person I've said
[00:46:12.000] his gender there was probably [laughter]
[00:46:14.000] mid to late
[00:46:14.640] >> narrowed it down 50% now of the
[00:46:16.480] population.
[00:46:17.040] >> I know. Yeah, maybe he was non-binary.
[00:46:20.480] He wasn't, believe me. But he said, um,
[00:46:23.760] I go in I, so I think he's on his third
[00:46:26.240] congressperson, so that's his job is
[00:46:28.079] like he runs the staffs for the Congress
[00:46:30.800] people. He goes, so I go into this gifts
[00:46:32.880] with them and I have to sign these
[00:46:35.119] confidentiality o and I shouldn't be
[00:46:36.720] telling you this and I'm not going to
[00:46:37.839] give you specifics, but I go in and I
[00:46:40.880] see what they see and it's terrifying
[00:46:44.000] and you wouldn't be agnostic. Oh, that
[00:46:46.560] can't be true. But is it true? I want I
[00:46:48.720] want to believe.
[00:46:49.520] >> So then I said to him, I go, you know,
[00:46:51.520] you're talking to someone who's a real
[00:46:53.440] lay person. I have friends. I mean, I
[00:46:55.280] know like, you know, Danny Jones, we
[00:46:56.720] were talking about, you know, Jesse
[00:46:57.920] Michaels.
[00:46:59.359] >> He's the one who has American Alchemy.
[00:47:00.960] These guys have podcasts that they do
[00:47:03.280] just on UFOs. Not Danny does lots of
[00:47:05.760] stuff, but Jesse's almost all um UFOs.
[00:47:09.040] And I'm like, if he were here, he would
[00:47:10.560] know exactly what to ask this guy. And I
[00:47:12.400] said, "All right, well, they keep
[00:47:13.680] releasing, you know, supposedly new
[00:47:16.079] photos, new videos. Why are they still
[00:47:17.839] kind of blurry?" And and he he said to
[00:47:20.560] me,
[00:47:21.440] >> he said, "Oh god, I'm going to get in
[00:47:23.440] trouble. This is just in Europe, right?
[00:47:25.040] This podcast."
[00:47:26.240] >> Well, [laughter] he said to me, "The
[00:47:29.760] reason it's he didn't use the word
[00:47:32.560] limited hangout." He goes, "We have to
[00:47:34.720] release something because Trump has
[00:47:37.119] that's his edict. We have to do a
[00:47:39.119] disclosure but we can't release
[00:47:41.280] everything because we have recovered
[00:47:44.000] crafts and recovered beings and if we
[00:47:48.400] release for instance what we know about
[00:47:52.240] those videos about velocity and how they
[00:47:55.440] are able to vanish and move and go and
[00:47:57.920] all that. We're developing that
[00:48:00.319] technology for our defense program, our
[00:48:02.640] warfare,
[00:48:04.160] and we can't release all that cuz then
[00:48:06.000] the enemy has it and they're going to
[00:48:07.680] develop the same technology. That's why
[00:48:10.240] everything is limited. So, I'm never
[00:48:12.960] going to be asked back, but that's okay,
[00:48:15.359] you know, and he he told me a couple
[00:48:17.359] other things and I'm like, "Oh, okay.
[00:48:18.800] I'm now I'm kind of a believer." Um,
[00:48:21.520] >> what else did he tell you?
[00:48:24.319] >> Well, the thing is so much of the
[00:48:25.760] science is over my head cuz I'm a dummy.
[00:48:28.400] But he was talking about jet propulsion
[00:48:30.480] and the stuff that so they basically
[00:48:32.400] have crafts and they I think it's in
[00:48:35.520] these new I haven't seen Spielberg's
[00:48:37.440] movies but I know that a lot of the
[00:48:40.160] people who believe this stuff believe
[00:48:41.839] that we've have recovery and they're
[00:48:44.079] hidden somewhere and then they're
[00:48:45.520] reassembled and we're trying to figure
[00:48:46.800] out how they work. He said we figured
[00:48:49.280] out how they do what they do that normal
[00:48:52.640] man-made crafts can't do and we're
[00:48:54.480] developing those that weaponry. Um
[00:48:58.400] the other interesting thing he said
[00:48:59.920] during the hearing or during the meeting
[00:49:01.599] was at that point then there's three
[00:49:03.119] more people like him for the different
[00:49:04.720] three other congressmen
[00:49:06.720] and he said remember what I told you
[00:49:09.119] about the skiffs I think I don't know
[00:49:11.920] how it even came up but he said um
[00:49:15.119] something about I maybe I was talking
[00:49:17.440] about how horrible it is to write about
[00:49:19.760] you know a pregnant woman getting
[00:49:21.440] stabbed 17 times and that kind of stuff
[00:49:25.760] and he goes well it's I told you, you
[00:49:27.440] know, we have nightmares from what we
[00:49:29.839] learn in skiffs. And he goes, in fact, I
[00:49:32.559] was the one, now I'm really saying who
[00:49:34.160] he was. He goes, I was the one who got
[00:49:35.760] them to pass, not pass a bill, but pass
[00:49:38.319] some kind make a rule that each of our
[00:49:41.440] staff people who are staffed to us,
[00:49:44.079] anyone that has to go into Skiffs who's
[00:49:45.839] not elected has to get psychiatric care
[00:49:49.280] cuz you need to learn how to live with
[00:49:51.040] these secrets and they haunt you. So
[00:49:53.599] there were four people with him at at
[00:49:56.480] the hearing sitting across I mean at the
[00:49:58.240] prep meeting and I said so all you guys
[00:50:00.319] are in free therapy and they all said
[00:50:04.240] yep and then one woman said well I'm
[00:50:06.559] not. I go oh why not cuz you're fine.
[00:50:09.280] She goes no no because I just started
[00:50:10.640] here and I'm an intern. Do I get free
[00:50:12.559] therapy? You know she didn't even know
[00:50:14.000] about it. So I think it's pretty
[00:50:16.319] serious. Um but I don't really know much
[00:50:19.599] more. I I would tell you actually if I
[00:50:21.760] had anything else to tell you, I'd tell
[00:50:22.960] you off the record, but I think I've
[00:50:24.160] told you pretty much everything he said.
[00:50:26.000] If Are you a UFO guy?
[00:50:27.920] >> No, but but we've done a bit on it every
[00:50:30.000] now and I'm probably the same as you.
[00:50:31.359] Like, well, it it just seems it seems
[00:50:33.359] impossible. And it it seems the
[00:50:35.520] distances are just too great. And could
[00:50:37.599] they get here? And could they and why
[00:50:39.119] would they sort of come and I guess to
[00:50:40.880] observe us if they're but then surely
[00:50:42.880] how could we have captured their stuff?
[00:50:44.640] because if they're so clever and so
[00:50:46.800] advanced they've gotten here and now
[00:50:48.079] we've got their bits and pieces and
[00:50:49.680] things I don't know what the story would
[00:50:51.520] be unless they've come sort of
[00:50:53.280] >> and and why are they not just popping up
[00:50:54.960] you know there's too many governments in
[00:50:56.640] the world they could have popped up in
[00:50:58.000] any country
[00:50:58.880] >> well I mean the implication is they are
[00:51:01.200] other countries have recoveries too and
[00:51:03.359] stuff
[00:51:03.760] >> so they're all in and there's never been
[00:51:05.520] one country or you know or a couple
[00:51:08.559] hundred years ago before this was all
[00:51:09.920] kicking off and they were just like oh
[00:51:11.119] here you know paintings of the alien
[00:51:12.960] that was found
[00:51:13.520] >> oh if you If you watch these guys like
[00:51:15.680] Danny Jones and Jesse, they have guys on
[00:51:18.800] there who talk about, you know,
[00:51:21.040] >> the pyramids in Egypt being created by
[00:51:23.440] aliens because of the engineering and
[00:51:26.480] the drawings that are, you know, 10,000
[00:51:29.119] years old of alien-like creatures. But
[00:51:31.119] again, I don't I see that stuff
[00:51:32.880] superficially and I'm like, "Wow, that's
[00:51:34.640] interesting, but I'm not going to pay
[00:51:36.000] attention and then do the the re
[00:51:38.079] required reading." M you come all this
[00:51:39.920] way across the galaxy and you build some
[00:51:41.599] sort of dusty triangles [laughter] in
[00:51:43.920] the desert. But no, I I I want to
[00:51:45.920] believe cuz how fascinating. There's
[00:51:47.200] something else. So that what you've just
[00:51:49.280] told me that's that's Wow. That's pretty
[00:51:51.440] >> Yeah.
[00:51:52.000] >> Whoa.
[00:51:53.440] >> I don't know. I [clears throat] don't
[00:51:54.160] know why he trusted me with that.
[00:51:57.040] I sure he sure
[00:51:58.400] >> what different you know what's Russia
[00:51:59.520] going to learn from you having
[00:52:00.720] >> Oh yeah. Yeah. No, I'm just worried
[00:52:01.760] about him losing his job. That's all I
[00:52:03.920] >> He won't. He won't.
[00:52:04.880] >> Yeah. And you know what? I'm kind kind
[00:52:06.640] of pissed at them because he was on the
[00:52:08.559] Democratic side. So there's
[00:52:10.559] >> there's a subcommittee and the ranking
[00:52:13.839] committee is the Republicans who call
[00:52:16.000] the hearing. So there were six of them
[00:52:18.079] and then the subcommittee is the
[00:52:19.680] Democrats and there's six of those. So I
[00:52:22.240] was meeting with the subcommittee cuz
[00:52:24.079] they don't know what's going to happen
[00:52:25.520] at the hearing. They're not told
[00:52:26.880] anything.
[00:52:27.839] >> So they asked me to come in
[00:52:30.240] >> and they wanted to know what I was going
[00:52:32.000] to talk about. And I didn't understand
[00:52:34.400] any of this cuz I'd never done it
[00:52:35.839] before. I said, "Oh, I thought it was
[00:52:37.280] going to be the staff of the Republicans
[00:52:38.880] and the Democrats talking to me." They
[00:52:40.400] go, "No, no, it's just us." And I go,
[00:52:42.640] "Oh, okay. Well, um, what do you need to
[00:52:44.720] know?" And they go, "Whatever you're
[00:52:46.000] going to say, we need to know in advance
[00:52:47.520] cuz they won't tell us."
[00:52:49.040] >> I'm like, "Isn't this supposed to be
[00:52:50.400] bipartisan where you're trying to get
[00:52:52.480] the information?" Yeah. And they're
[00:52:53.920] like, "No, they're using it for
[00:52:55.119] political stuff." You know, everything
[00:52:57.520] it is. And it was true. And then turned
[00:52:59.760] out they [clears throat] didn't send any
[00:53:00.720] of the Democratic senators to the
[00:53:03.280] hearing. So I wasn't questioned by the
[00:53:05.599] people from my own party. And luckily
[00:53:08.800] the Republicans actually they didn't
[00:53:11.040] politicize it. Okay,
[00:53:12.319] >> which was good. And I saw those staffers
[00:53:15.119] who I had met was sitting up there cuz
[00:53:16.720] they had to be there to find out what
[00:53:18.079] happened. But not one of them went
[00:53:19.520] there. And at one point I was going to
[00:53:21.359] say something in my testimony about
[00:53:23.200] being disappointed, but I wasn't sure
[00:53:25.359] because they're all up in this dis
[00:53:27.839] >> and I [clears throat] wasn't sure. Well,
[00:53:28.960] maybe that's a Democrat, but he's just
[00:53:30.960] not asking questions cuz I don't know
[00:53:32.240] who they all are. There's I don't know
[00:53:33.520] how many hundreds that are elected. But
[00:53:36.240] when I found out after the fact that
[00:53:38.160] none of them had come there, I wished I
[00:53:39.839] had said something like, "If you guys
[00:53:41.359] are really serious about this, you know,
[00:53:43.119] the people on the other side of the
[00:53:44.240] aisle should have been here and should
[00:53:45.440] have been asking me questions." Even,
[00:53:47.200] you know, critical questions. If they
[00:53:48.800] wanted to, you know, say I was full of
[00:53:50.559] defend myself, I'd do it. But
[00:53:53.599] so yeah, so that's his punishment for
[00:53:55.920] not getting his congressperson up there
[00:53:58.079] on the dis.
[00:53:59.280] >> The alien stuff and the the UFOs, the
[00:54:01.839] UFO stuff with with the man with the MK
[00:54:04.400] Ultra. Um, you know,
[00:54:06.319] >> the the stuff you said sounds very real,
[00:54:08.079] but then there's also, didn't they try
[00:54:10.000] and get people to do things like walk
[00:54:11.359] through walls and
[00:54:12.960] >> Yeah. Yeah. remote viewing and things
[00:54:15.440] like that. I that's really beyond my pay
[00:54:19.040] grade cuz the I was mostly looking at
[00:54:20.960] what Wes did. This one psychiatrist, he
[00:54:23.119] was the only one I could document his
[00:54:24.880] experiments and his goals and what he
[00:54:27.119] did for about 15 years. I do know they
[00:54:30.240] had and there's a movie coming out
[00:54:34.079] uh about a guy and I can never pronounce
[00:54:36.480] his name. His first name is Andre Pure
[00:54:38.960] Rich. It's spelled P U H A R I C H,
[00:54:44.880] >> right?
[00:54:45.839] >> Um and he was uh kind of a Do you know
[00:54:49.200] who Yuri Geller is? The Israeli psychic
[00:54:51.760] who
[00:54:52.160] >> spoon bending.
[00:54:53.040] >> He was kind of his mentor,
[00:54:55.200] >> right? And they both I think Yuri Geller
[00:54:57.599] came from Israel and Purich I think was
[00:54:59.680] from Eastern Europe. Mhm.
[00:55:01.359] >> And he actually had this like commu
[00:55:03.440] commune I think in the Hudson Valley or
[00:55:06.160] the Catkills where he found like a dozen
[00:55:09.760] children who were gifted and supposedly
[00:55:12.960] could telecommunicate with aliens and
[00:55:16.400] other beings and they lived there with
[00:55:18.400] him and he was studying them and they
[00:55:21.280] were doing transporting bodies and stuff
[00:55:24.000] kids and he was part of working for MK
[00:55:28.240] Ultra for the psychic stuff, you know,
[00:55:31.440] the ESB studies and all that. And the
[00:55:35.040] guy who made the movie is named Gregory,
[00:55:37.680] I think something. And it's coming out,
[00:55:40.160] I think, at the end of the summer. So,
[00:55:43.359] all the questions about that stuff, if
[00:55:45.839] you ever want to get him as a guest,
[00:55:47.200] I'll hook you up. I think he's going on
[00:55:48.960] Danny Jones any minute now.
[00:55:51.040] >> I just need them to be skeptical enough
[00:55:52.559] cuz Uri Gella was he was caught out.
[00:55:54.799] >> He was called out. Yeah. And again, I
[00:55:56.160] don't know enough about him, but I think
[00:55:57.599] he was on Johnny Carson or something.
[00:55:59.200] Yeah, that's right.
[00:55:59.839] >> And he couldn't do it or they
[00:56:01.359] >> they didn't they didn't let him use his
[00:56:03.280] spoons
[00:56:04.559] >> to do the spoon. It was James Randy had
[00:56:07.119] sort of gotten in there and and made
[00:56:09.040] sure he didn't have access to his own
[00:56:10.240] spoons and he couldn't couldn't I mean
[00:56:11.839] humiliating how
[00:56:13.040] >> Oh, yeah. Yeah.
[00:56:14.000] >> He he really kept going with it.
[00:56:15.440] >> Well, I'm glad you're that skeptical cuz
[00:56:17.200] sometimes I I'm on podcasts where people
[00:56:19.119] are the opposite. And you know, it took
[00:56:21.280] me, and I say this a lot, but it took me
[00:56:23.040] 20 years to write the book cuz I wanted
[00:56:25.760] to examine every possible way I could be
[00:56:28.160] wrong before I'd say something was right
[00:56:30.960] and to disprove it, try as hard as I
[00:56:34.000] could to disprove something. And that's
[00:56:36.079] why I'm really careful. And even at the
[00:56:37.599] hearing, I kept qualifying saying, you
[00:56:39.359] know, I haven't proven this. Um, I'm I'm
[00:56:42.559] presenting a theory that is
[00:56:44.240] circumstantial, and I think it's pretty
[00:56:46.319] compelling, and I'm still trying to, but
[00:56:48.799] this is what I found out. And I can show
[00:56:50.960] you what was lied to you about, what was
[00:56:53.599] lied to Congress and then what was lied
[00:56:56.000] to by, you know, the CIA. And I think
[00:56:58.720] that's as important.
[00:57:00.240] >> Yeah, absolutely. It makes you much more
[00:57:01.920] credible. And I I think hopefully
[00:57:04.480] audiences want that as well and
[00:57:05.760] YouTubers, not ones who just fall for
[00:57:07.280] anything. I know,
[00:57:08.240] >> but it means that when you said that bit
[00:57:09.839] about what they're hiding, you that that
[00:57:13.119] suddenly that feels true now. So
[00:57:15.920] >> if if you're just going to go with
[00:57:17.280] everything and go like, "Oh, that's all
[00:57:18.720] true." and Yuri Gallala just couldn't
[00:57:20.079] bend that particular spoon. Yeah.
[00:57:21.920] >> Uh you know it doesn't no one's going to
[00:57:23.599] believe anything you say. Right.
[00:57:24.960] >> Um what about Marilyn Manson? As you
[00:57:27.440] know I've just uh interviewed Evan
[00:57:28.720] Rachel Wood who had stories about him.
[00:57:31.200] >> Um swastika tattoos apparently all these
[00:57:34.000] kinds of things and obviously his name
[00:57:35.440] >> he didn't take his clothes off when I
[00:57:36.799] was with him. [laughter]
[00:57:38.559] >> Yeah.
[00:57:39.119] >> Yeah. So he he he was a big fan
[00:57:41.119] obviously of Charles Manson.
[00:57:42.880] >> Yeah. You know I again I don't know
[00:57:44.640] enough about him personally. Um, I know
[00:57:48.160] he I mean I know I So what you're asking
[00:57:52.319] about is I hung out with him one night
[00:57:53.920] at his house right after the book came
[00:57:56.240] out and you know I knew him by
[00:57:58.559] reputation
[00:58:00.240] >> and I I don't like heavy metal music and
[00:58:03.280] I don't know if they would even call it
[00:58:04.720] heavy metal. I know he covered a a song
[00:58:07.760] by my favorite person of all performer
[00:58:10.319] of all time, Patty Smith.
[00:58:11.680] >> Is that Tainted Love or is that another
[00:58:13.119] song? No, no. She did a song um that she
[00:58:15.599] won't perform anymore called Rock and
[00:58:18.160] Roll Nword.
[00:58:19.680] >> Oh, I see. Okay.
[00:58:20.640] >> And it's a song
[00:58:22.960] where she's reclaiming [clears throat]
[00:58:24.720] the word and said, and this in her
[00:58:27.280] lyrics to the song, she says Jesus
[00:58:29.200] Christ was an N-word.
[00:58:31.200] >> So was Muhammad. So was Gandhi. And so
[00:58:34.880] and she said she was trying to say it's
[00:58:37.200] the most powerful thing you can say
[00:58:38.960] about someone in a in a beautiful way. M
[00:58:41.760] >> and she it's an amazing song, but about
[00:58:45.680] after Black Lives Matter and everything,
[00:58:47.440] she finally said, "You know what? I'm
[00:58:49.920] too privileged to perform that song
[00:58:51.760] anymore." And as a white woman, I'm not
[00:58:54.559] going to ever do it again.
[00:58:56.400] >> I read today about a a restaurant in
[00:58:58.720] Buenosaris. I used to live there called
[00:59:00.640] Big Nword Burgers.
[00:59:02.480] >> Oh, really?
[00:59:03.440] >> Apparently, it's good. [laughter]
[00:59:05.599] >> But they just have different
[00:59:06.319] sensibilities over there. They don't
[00:59:07.520] give a
[00:59:08.000] >> Maybe it's just the wrong translation or
[00:59:09.839] something. Maybe that [laughter]
[00:59:12.000] >> it's not it's not
[00:59:13.280] >> well that's all I knew about Marilyn
[00:59:14.640] going in was that and I like his version
[00:59:16.880] of the song but I so in 2020 like 6
[00:59:19.839] months after the book came out my um
[00:59:22.640] agents started getting calls from
[00:59:24.720] Maryland and they [clears throat] didn't
[00:59:26.160] believe it was him for some reason and
[00:59:28.400] they didn't even bother me with it and
[00:59:30.240] then finally
[00:59:32.160] his receptionist or no his assistant
[00:59:34.400] took one of the calls and she said I
[00:59:36.880] actually think this is him cuz she was a
[00:59:38.720] fan and she's seen interviews of him
[00:59:40.640] speaking. She said, "It really does
[00:59:41.920] sound like him. We should at least let
[00:59:44.160] Tom know." So, they told me what was
[00:59:46.720] going on. I said, "Just have him reach
[00:59:48.720] out to me and if I think it's him, yeah,
[00:59:51.760] I'll go I'll go anywhere almost." Um, so
[00:59:55.119] he did and he seemed like he called me,
[00:59:57.520] I think, after a couple emails and I
[01:00:00.000] thought, I'm really sure it's him from
[01:00:01.839] what little I know. And he wanted me to
[01:00:03.280] come up to the house to listen to an
[01:00:04.960] audio tape. So he had lived at Ciello
[01:00:08.240] Drive after um the tape murders. The guy
[01:00:12.240] who owned it, Rudy Alabelli, had it
[01:00:14.559] about 10 more years and then sold it or
[01:00:18.000] still rented it. I can't remember. But
[01:00:20.240] at one point in the '9s, Trent Resner
[01:00:23.119] and Marilyn Manson moved in together and
[01:00:25.920] were there for a year or two and
[01:00:28.319] recorded music there. And I'm not a fan
[01:00:31.119] of I mean I'm not not I think I love
[01:00:33.359] Trent Resnner's soundtracks
[01:00:35.520] >> for for films but I don't know their
[01:00:37.920] music but I know that they recorded in
[01:00:40.079] the house and that was kind of a dark
[01:00:42.160] macob side of who they were
[01:00:44.880] >> the 9in nails for for those
[01:00:46.720] >> 9inch nails. Yeah. Yeah.
[01:00:48.240] >> Yeah. And the song tainted to love is
[01:00:49.760] soft cell isn't it
[01:00:50.640] >> softell who just performed at the
[01:00:52.960] Hollywood Bowl like a week or two ago
[01:00:55.119] and friends of mine invited me but I
[01:00:56.799] couldn't go. I think it was in DC. But
[01:00:59.359] um so Marilyn said he found an audio
[01:01:03.200] tape there at the house when he was
[01:01:05.680] living there that he's kept all these
[01:01:07.200] years and he really wanted me to hear it
[01:01:09.119] but it was too dangerous for him to talk
[01:01:10.960] about it on the phone. And I'm like
[01:01:13.119] Marilyn, you don't have to lure me up
[01:01:14.720] there with a carrot. Just invite me up
[01:01:16.400] there and I'll come. So I went up there
[01:01:18.640] and I brought my collaborator Dan and um
[01:01:22.079] we got there at 11 o'clock. And are do
[01:01:24.319] you know his band well or
[01:01:25.839] >> No. No. He has a a a collaborator named
[01:01:28.720] Twiggy who I guess composes a lot of the
[01:01:31.920] music with him and he always performs in
[01:01:33.839] a dress and he was up there and they had
[01:01:36.480] had a falling out and Marilyn had told
[01:01:38.880] us this later. He said, "I fired him
[01:01:40.799] because he had been accused of keeping
[01:01:42.960] his girlfriend a prisoner in his
[01:01:45.359] basement." And again, this is before the
[01:01:47.839] other revelations came out. Oh,
[01:01:50.079] >> and he said, "I fired him because we
[01:01:52.319] were about to go on tour like 5 years
[01:01:54.640] ago when the revelations about Twiggy
[01:01:56.720] came out." And he goes, "I knew Twiggy
[01:01:58.480] didn't do it. I knew he was innocent,
[01:01:59.839] but I knew that people thought that I
[01:02:01.839] did that kind of stuff." He goes, "But I
[01:02:04.240] felt bad about it." And I invited Twiggy
[01:02:06.400] tonight and it's the first time I'm
[01:02:07.920] seeing him since I fired him 5 years
[01:02:09.760] ago. He said, "Since then, he's gone
[01:02:11.839] through rehab. He's off heroin or
[01:02:13.920] whatever he was on. He's really cleaned
[01:02:16.400] up." He told us this after we Twiggy
[01:02:19.119] opened the door and Dan, my
[01:02:20.880] collaborator, who's a lot younger and a
[01:02:22.960] huge music fan, he's like, "I can't
[01:02:25.359] believe Twiggy is leading us into
[01:02:27.599] Marilyn's house. They don't even speak.
[01:02:29.280] They had a huge falling out." And then
[01:02:31.760] we found out that Marilyn thought the
[01:02:34.079] most comfortable setting for them to
[01:02:35.680] have their big reconciliation was with
[01:02:37.599] me there cuz I was a distraction.
[01:02:39.599] >> Whoa. So Twiggy, the reason he he's
[01:02:41.839] trying to play this audio tape and they
[01:02:43.839] couldn't figure out something was off
[01:02:45.599] and it took hours and eventually I heard
[01:02:48.400] it. I'm like, it's Roman Pollinsk's
[01:02:50.799] polygraph that he did with the police
[01:02:53.200] that you can buy on the internet.
[01:02:55.200] >> Okay.
[01:02:55.680] >> And I had to be, you know, kind of
[01:02:57.920] polite to TW or Maryland because he was
[01:03:00.559] being a good host. He was serving lots
[01:03:02.240] of recreational stuff.
[01:03:04.559] >> Recreational.
[01:03:05.599] >> Yeah.
[01:03:06.799] >> Yeah. And [laughter] uh it was getting
[01:03:08.400] late and I said, "Marilyn, you know,
[01:03:10.559] this is a Pinsky um polygraph, which I
[01:03:14.000] have, but I go, I think you've got more
[01:03:16.400] of it than I heard. I think maybe you
[01:03:18.559] have an extended version, so thank you."
[01:03:20.160] He goes, "Yeah, I knew it." You know, so
[01:03:22.480] I mean, the end result was we had a
[01:03:24.000] crazy night. Twiggy went home, I think,
[01:03:25.839] at like 2:00 in the morning, and then
[01:03:27.440] the good stuff came out that he didn't
[01:03:29.839] want Twiggy to be tempted with, and then
[01:03:31.760] we left at 7 in the morning before I
[01:03:34.240] died. [laughter] But he was a great host
[01:03:36.799] and it was fun. And one of the funny
[01:03:39.440] things was uh I I don't know if I should
[01:03:41.920] be joking about this.
[01:03:44.880] >> Well, this isn't bad. He was obsessed
[01:03:46.880] with Taylor Swift and we thought he was
[01:03:49.119] joking. She had just released a record
[01:03:51.760] and he had this massive screening room
[01:03:55.119] with no furniture. So, we're sitting on
[01:03:56.960] the floor and that's where he wanted us
[01:03:59.039] to hear the audio tape because it had
[01:04:00.720] the best sound system. All the windows
[01:04:03.039] are blacked out. It's dark. I kept
[01:04:04.720] tripping over bottles of tequila that
[01:04:07.280] Dan said were like $800 bottles of
[01:04:10.079] tequila and I'm so sorry, Marilyn.
[01:04:13.520] Cuz I know it was very cuz it spills.
[01:04:16.559] >> And [clears throat] he's like, "Don't
[01:04:17.280] worry, I've got cases of those in the
[01:04:18.960] basement." But um he kept playing us
[01:04:22.240] different Taylor Swift songs and it was
[01:04:25.599] genuine. I thought it was irony or he
[01:04:28.720] was mocking her, but he really liked
[01:04:30.079] her. And then he was playing us his new
[01:04:31.680] music
[01:04:32.880] >> and just telling us stories and stuff.
[01:04:35.359] I, you know, I had heard rumors, but the
[01:04:37.520] stuff that came out, I guess, about
[01:04:38.880] Evan,
[01:04:40.240] >> Rachel Wood came out later.
[01:04:42.640] >> Um, he he was really funny
[01:04:46.240] >> and really smart and sweet. Um, I hope
[01:04:51.200] he didn't do the stuff he did, but I'm
[01:04:53.280] don't know enough about it.
[01:04:55.280] >> But it was a fun night and I got to say
[01:04:57.119] I spent a night at Maryland's. Did you
[01:04:59.039] did you see how he was with his
[01:05:00.079] girlfriend at the time?
[01:05:01.920] >> I remember looking her up. So, he told
[01:05:05.119] us they had had a fight over what they
[01:05:08.319] were going to wear to the Oscars, which
[01:05:10.319] was either the next day or the day
[01:05:12.240] after.
[01:05:13.839] And I think it was the next day. And he
[01:05:16.640] said, "So, she's not coming down. She
[01:05:18.240] really wanted to meet you."
[01:05:19.280] >> She was like up in the room.
[01:05:20.240] >> She was up in the bedroom.
[01:05:21.039] >> Didn't come down at all.
[01:05:21.839] >> Sulking. No.
[01:05:23.119] >> I mean, we didn't even get there till 11
[01:05:24.640] or 12. Maybe she went to bed at
[01:05:26.160] midnight. I just ask because I mean the
[01:05:28.240] story Evan tells and and these things
[01:05:30.559] are always difficult because it's like a
[01:05:31.680] he said she said and then if you look
[01:05:33.359] into it too much then you're it's not
[01:05:34.880] fair on the abused potentially abused
[01:05:36.880] victim but then at the same time what if
[01:05:39.039] what if it is
[01:05:40.319] >> you know you don't know but there were a
[01:05:42.480] lot of stories of like her being you
[01:05:43.920] know excited for things or whatever and
[01:05:45.839] then she was just uh locked in a in a
[01:05:47.760] locked in a room.
[01:05:48.720] >> Yeah.
[01:05:49.280] >> So I'm just wondering
[01:05:50.079] >> was there was there like physical and
[01:05:51.599] sexual abuse or was it psychological?
[01:05:53.599] >> Yeah. physical and sexual
[01:05:55.200] >> from from her what she says. Yeah.
[01:05:57.760] >> Yeah. Yeah. And I think uh Rose McGowan
[01:06:00.400] might have said similar stuff. Another
[01:06:02.079] actress was with him
[01:06:03.920] >> and then he was with another an exotic
[01:06:06.720] dancer named uh I forget. I can't
[01:06:10.559] remember if she made those allegations.
[01:06:12.720] >> Eventually you go okay well
[01:06:14.559] >> yeah if there's if they multiply. I do
[01:06:17.359] think he's kind of on his rehab tour.
[01:06:20.799] >> Okay. cuz I know he got fired by his
[01:06:22.880] agency. Then Kanye took him on stage.
[01:06:25.599] >> Did he?
[01:06:26.240] >> When time Yeah. When Kanye got cancelled
[01:06:28.480] for the Nazi stuff um a few years ago,
[01:06:32.559] he reached out to Maryland and said,
[01:06:34.319] "Fuck you all. I'll get the other
[01:06:36.400] cancelled guy and have him they did an
[01:06:38.240] appearance somewhere
[01:06:40.000] >> and I think they were collaborating on
[01:06:41.920] something." But um
[01:06:44.240] >> imagine the conversations between those
[01:06:46.079] two.
[01:06:46.799] >> I don't know. Have you had Kanye on your
[01:06:48.559] podcast?
[01:06:48.960] >> No. I would I'd interview anyone. I
[01:06:50.799] don't care.
[01:06:51.119] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you're a
[01:06:52.400] journalist and you know, I go to
[01:06:55.200] >> You were talking about your friend kind
[01:06:57.200] of our friend Sean Atwood's houses. I go
[01:06:59.599] to Peter Thiel's house for dinner.
[01:07:01.119] >> Oh, do you?
[01:07:02.160] >> Only, you know, he he's
[01:07:04.000] >> What's his house like?
[01:07:05.200] >> Oh, it's you know, everything you'd
[01:07:06.880] imagine is up in the hills and it's
[01:07:09.359] massive.
[01:07:09.920] >> Enormous. Yeah.
[01:07:10.720] >> Yeah. And um very well decorated. And
[01:07:15.920] you know, I I
[01:07:18.240] didn't talk about it, but Brett Eastston
[01:07:20.079] Ellis, do you know him?
[01:07:21.280] >> American American.
[01:07:22.640] >> Yeah. So, he was at a couple of the
[01:07:23.839] dinner parties. Peter had them for me
[01:07:26.160] cuz he does this thing where he invites
[01:07:27.920] people he's interested in to his house
[01:07:29.839] and has like 15 guests and makes a
[01:07:31.920] beautiful dinner. Well, he doesn't make
[01:07:33.280] it. The staff says, and you're kind of
[01:07:36.160] like a monkey on a chain performing and
[01:07:38.240] it's exhausting. I thought it was just
[01:07:39.920] going to be me hanging out, but it's
[01:07:41.359] like
[01:07:42.240] >> just, you know, he's on the spectrum.
[01:07:44.079] All those guys are.
[01:07:45.200] >> I've been at a thing like that that
[01:07:47.039] you're not supposed to talk about what
[01:07:48.319] the thing is. And I remember being very
[01:07:50.240] excited to go and then having exactly
[01:07:52.799] that feeling of, oh, I'm I'm the monkey
[01:07:56.079] >> and there's a lot of billionaires around
[01:07:57.520] me. I'm there to entertain them. They
[01:07:59.599] are the main event.
[01:08:00.400] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[01:08:01.680] >> They're what this is for. The party's
[01:08:04.000] for them. I'm one of various monkeys.
[01:08:06.960] >> Yeah. [laughter] It's weird. But you
[01:08:09.200] know then so Brett East and Ellis talked
[01:08:11.520] about meeting me at the first dinner. He
[01:08:13.520] he was actually they had two of them a
[01:08:15.359] week apart
[01:08:16.799] >> and um he talked about it on his podcast
[01:08:20.159] and then all of a sudden people started
[01:08:22.560] attacking me and saying I'm a friend of
[01:08:24.319] Peter Thiels. I'm not a friend of Pet I
[01:08:26.560] mean I'm a journalist and as I said if
[01:08:28.880] Hitler invited me to the bunker of
[01:08:30.480] course I'd go to the bunker. I
[01:08:32.080] mean
[01:08:32.719] >> right rightwing
[01:08:33.759] >> he's rightwing. I mean my politics are
[01:08:35.759] complete opposition here. That's how it
[01:08:37.520] should be, shouldn't it?
[01:08:38.640] >> Every everyone in my family is on a
[01:08:40.000] different side of political things. You
[01:08:41.600] and I probably I'm probably closer to to
[01:08:43.279] Peter Teal stuff
[01:08:44.319] >> just for you. You know, I don't care.
[01:08:46.239] Although [clears throat] Oh, no. You've
[01:08:47.040] gone quiet now. You don't like that.
[01:08:48.239] >> No, no, no, no. I'm just imagining.
[01:08:49.822] [laughter] Um, no, no, I have friends,
[01:08:51.759] you know, I have friends from both sides
[01:08:53.199] cuz that's how you learn And, you
[01:08:55.040] know, you can argue with them and I
[01:08:56.560] don't talk politics with Peter.
[01:08:58.640] >> Uh, but I try to learn I mean, I'm
[01:09:01.359] fascinated by power.
[01:09:02.799] >> Yeah.
[01:09:03.040] >> And he's one of the most powerful people
[01:09:04.480] on the planet. And um
[01:09:06.480] >> all a bit spectrumy as well.
[01:09:08.000] >> Oh yeah.
[01:09:08.480] >> Those guys.
[01:09:09.199] >> Yeah. Um but you know, it's an
[01:09:12.640] opportunity for me to see how someone
[01:09:14.799] like that is in their home.
[01:09:17.120] >> Mhm.
[01:09:17.600] >> And the second night I was there. You
[01:09:20.640] know, the first night he he he kind of
[01:09:23.040] ends at dinner and this is the spectrum
[01:09:24.880] part. He just kind of goes, "Okay, we're
[01:09:26.000] finished here." And everybody jumps up
[01:09:27.279] and leaves. And it's so abrupt. Not
[01:09:29.759] like, "Ah, thanks for coming." And he
[01:09:31.520] did he this is funny. He walked up to me
[01:09:33.679] with a copy of my book. Yeah.
[01:09:35.600] >> And he said, "Would you sign this, Tom?"
[01:09:37.440] I said, "Oh, yeah, of course." And I
[01:09:38.880] have this automatic thing when I sign a
[01:09:40.640] book. Someone told me once that if you
[01:09:43.120] personalize a signature in a book, it's
[01:09:46.000] less valuable to people who try to sell
[01:09:48.159] them. So, if it's just your name without
[01:09:51.199] like a per like to Peter. Yeah.
[01:09:53.359] >> If it's just your name and he ever wants
[01:09:55.199] to sell it, he can get a lot more money
[01:09:56.719] if it doesn't have anything
[01:09:57.920] personalized. So, I just was on
[01:09:59.840] automatic drive. I said, "Do you want me
[01:10:01.920] to just sign my name or do you want me
[01:10:03.600] to personalize it?" because if if I
[01:10:05.040] personalize it, it won't be that
[01:10:06.480] expensive. If you and all of a sudden
[01:10:07.760] I'm like, "Oh, wait. You're not going to
[01:10:08.719] resell the book. You [laughter] have
[01:10:10.000] billions and billions." And it was the
[01:10:12.000] only time he laughed the whole night cuz
[01:10:14.159] he's like a He's a nice guy, but
[01:10:15.600] he's like a robot. It's just like no
[01:10:17.280] sense of humor.
[01:10:18.239] >> He found that funny though.
[01:10:19.440] >> And then the second Yeah, he laughed cuz
[01:10:20.960] he thought I think he knew it was
[01:10:22.239] genuine. Like all of a sudden I probably
[01:10:23.760] went red like why am I asking a
[01:10:25.520] billionaire? You know, you can get $200
[01:10:27.920] instead of a hundred if you try to sell
[01:10:29.600] it on eBay.
[01:10:30.320] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then the second
[01:10:32.080] night I went there at the end of the
[01:10:34.000] dinner he does, okay, we're all done.
[01:10:35.360] And he goes, do you want to stay? Cuz
[01:10:36.960] we've never really had one-on-one time.
[01:10:39.199] And he's like a little boy, you know,
[01:10:40.719] and he's like, you know, just if you
[01:10:42.560] don't mind, could you stay like just we
[01:10:44.239] could talk. And I'm like, yeah, sure.
[01:10:45.760] And he's, you want to do inside or
[01:10:47.760] outside? We were eating outside cuz it
[01:10:50.080] was co not that anyone wore masks, but I
[01:10:52.480] think he was assuming that somebody
[01:10:54.640] might, you know, and he said, "So you
[01:10:56.560] want to stay outside or go inside?" And
[01:10:58.239] I said, "Well, I'd rather go inside cuz
[01:10:59.760] I haven't really gotten to see your
[01:11:00.960] beautiful house."
[01:11:02.159] >> So, we went in there and we talked for
[01:11:04.239] about two or three hours and it's late.
[01:11:06.719] It's like midnight and I was drinking a
[01:11:09.600] lot at dinner and stuff cuz I'm nervous
[01:11:12.480] and cuz I like to drink and I was tired
[01:11:15.440] and finally at like midnight I said, "I
[01:11:18.480] got to go. I'm real tired. I'm sorry."
[01:11:20.480] He goes, "Oh, fine. Sure, sure, sure.
[01:11:22.159] And then Dan, my collaborator, who had
[01:11:24.640] been at the dinner the week before,
[01:11:26.719] wasn't invited the second week. They
[01:11:28.800] said, "Don't bring them
[01:11:30.080] >> cuz they're just control freaks." Dan's
[01:11:32.000] great and should have been there. But
[01:11:33.840] anyway, he said, "You have to call me as
[01:11:35.840] soon as you're done cuz I want to hear
[01:11:37.199] everything that happened." Cuz he had
[01:11:38.560] witnessed what happened the week before
[01:11:40.239] and it's weird. We don't have enough
[01:11:41.760] time to talk about it. But um I go out
[01:11:45.120] to the Uber that comes to the massive
[01:11:47.679] gates with security guys with guns and
[01:11:49.679] cuz he has all these threats. And
[01:11:52.400] I'm like it's going to be 3:00 or 4 in
[01:11:54.239] the morning in New York. But Dan, what I
[01:11:56.239] call him and I say, "Dan," I go, he
[01:11:59.440] goes, "Why is it so late? The dinner
[01:12:01.120] went that late." I go, "No, everyone
[01:12:02.400] left 3 hours ago, but Peter wanted to
[01:12:04.320] talk." He goes, "What'd you talk about?"
[01:12:06.000] And I I said, "Well, you know, I I
[01:12:08.000] started telling what we talked about." I
[01:12:09.840] go, "But I got really tired and wanted
[01:12:11.440] to go home, so I I asked if it was okay
[01:12:13.600] to leave." He goes, "What?" He goes,
[01:12:15.679] "You are sitting with one of the most
[01:12:17.600] powerful people in the world and you end
[01:12:19.600] the interview." I go, "It wasn't an
[01:12:20.880] interview. It was social." He goes, "But
[01:12:22.400] you still should have stayed there until
[01:12:24.000] the sun came up." And he was absolutely
[01:12:26.239] right.
[01:12:26.800] >> Wow.
[01:12:27.199] >> Because you're getting I would get more
[01:12:28.400] and more, but I was too exhausted.
[01:12:30.640] >> Yeah. I've had that before with someone
[01:12:31.920] as well. You end up leaving and you're
[01:12:33.920] you're almost like kicking yourself that
[01:12:35.199] I've gone home early, but I know Well,
[01:12:37.280] you're going to you can't be tired. I'm
[01:12:38.880] not being tired. Um, [laughter] it's
[01:12:40.560] just
[01:12:40.800] >> one other thing. So, since the hearings,
[01:12:42.560] I've been asked to do a lot of podcasts
[01:12:45.760] and and and live TV stuff.
[01:12:48.640] >> And my friends, my lefty friends and
[01:12:51.120] family are angry at me for going on
[01:12:53.600] something called News Nation, which is a
[01:12:56.080] right-wing kind of Fox thing.
[01:12:57.520] >> Is that Alex? It's not Alex Jones, is
[01:12:59.120] it?
[01:12:59.600] >> No, but he goes probably on there a lot.
[01:13:02.320] >> Right. Right. Right.
[01:13:03.199] >> And I said to them, I said, "Look, you
[01:13:05.199] know, I'm talking about my research and
[01:13:07.440] my reporting. I'm not talking about
[01:13:09.199] their politics and Rachel Matau.
[01:13:12.480] You don't know who these people are.
[01:13:14.239] >> The leftwing the the the you know the
[01:13:16.560] lefty the people who align with my
[01:13:18.960] politics who have news platforms.
[01:13:20.880] They're not asking me. So I'm going to
[01:13:22.960] the people who ask me and I'll use their
[01:13:25.120] platforms cuz I want to tell what I
[01:13:27.280] found and have as many people learn
[01:13:28.800] about it as possible.
[01:13:30.320] >> Well that that whole thing of look
[01:13:32.080] people there's I don't want to get all
[01:13:33.679] passed down about it. You tend to see,
[01:13:35.199] at least the last few years, people on
[01:13:36.480] the right are a little bit more open to
[01:13:37.840] the idea that people can talk across
[01:13:39.600] politics. People on the left are very
[01:13:41.440] like shut down,
[01:13:42.320] >> rigid. Yeah. And that hurts them a lot.
[01:13:44.480] >> There's loads of us that are sort of
[01:13:46.000] feel a bit politically homeless who may
[01:13:47.840] have had views that you're supposed to
[01:13:49.679] have on the left. But that kind of
[01:13:51.760] clamping down on speech, that kind of
[01:13:54.080] canceling anyone who doesn't agree with
[01:13:55.360] you, it just totally put off a huge
[01:13:58.000] number of us who I wouldn't really call
[01:14:00.000] uh necessarily liberals. they're sort of
[01:14:02.480] maybe progressives or
[01:14:03.920] >> and so many of us were like I'm a bit
[01:14:06.320] younger my sort of generation we grew up
[01:14:07.920] going what is this you can't talk to the
[01:14:09.840] other side and that's why we left
[01:14:12.719] >> it doesn't mean we go full on batshit
[01:14:14.960] you know but you just go ah no no no I'm
[01:14:17.120] sticking with the side who's going to
[01:14:18.320] talk to the other side even though some
[01:14:19.520] of the people in it might be a bit
[01:14:21.120] >> anyway where can people get your book
[01:14:23.440] >> oh oh uh I know they sell it in the UK
[01:14:26.800] and bookstores and Amazon um I you know
[01:14:29.520] I tell people if they can get it from an
[01:14:31.040] indie bookstore. Try that first. If they
[01:14:33.600] can't, then go to Barnes & Noble or I
[01:14:36.159] forget what's the name of the I know in
[01:14:37.600] London when I'm there, I see it in
[01:14:39.280] Waters.
[01:14:39.920] >> Water St. Yeah.
[01:14:40.880] >> Yeah.
[01:14:41.280] >> I'll put the link to Amazon.
[01:14:42.560] >> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter]
[01:14:44.159] >> I have the same problem. I had a book
[01:14:45.280] and I'm like, "Oh, yeah. I I don't want
[01:14:47.440] to promote Amazon." But that's where
[01:14:48.960] everyone's going to get it. The reviews
[01:14:50.640] and the stars, they've got us. They've
[01:14:52.239] monopolized us.
[01:14:53.040] >> Don't get it from the library.
[01:14:54.320] >> Yeah.
[01:14:54.960] >> No, that's a joke.
[01:14:56.640] >> You get a tiny percentage of don't you?
[01:14:58.400] I I've signed up something in the UK. I
[01:14:59.840] get like a like one cent.
[01:15:01.840] >> I had no idea. Do I?
[01:15:03.199] >> Maybe. I don't.
[01:15:03.920] >> No, no. I I shouldn't say no. If you
[01:15:05.280] don't have money, get it from the
[01:15:06.239] library. I'm just That's kind of
[01:15:08.080] a joke. Some people, one of the Congress
[01:15:10.159] people at the hearing held up the book.
[01:15:12.239] >> It was like an ad for it and he goes,
[01:15:13.760] "I'm reading this, Mr. Owen. This is
[01:15:15.920] amazing. My book." And he goes, "I got
[01:15:17.679] it from the Senate Library today." And
[01:15:19.679] you know, my mic's not on until it's my
[01:15:21.600] turn to answer. And I wanted to say,
[01:15:23.440] "Wait a library. Go down the street and
[01:15:25.520] get it at Barnes & Noble. Pay 15 bucks,
[01:15:27.760] brother."
[01:15:28.159] >> Absolutely. and then leave a leave a
[01:15:29.520] review somewhere. I don't know. People,
[01:15:32.159] please do and go go and get it. We'll
[01:15:33.600] have the link down below. You'll be able
[01:15:34.960] to we'll do Amazon and maybe a couple
[01:15:36.480] other places then so you can go and get
[01:15:37.600] it from other places as well. Uh hit
[01:15:39.840] this like button. There's a like button
[01:15:41.360] here. And uh watch the next thing that
[01:15:43.040] YouTube tells you you should watch.
[01:15:46.320] Before you go, free cash is linked below
[01:15:48.159] and on the QR code. Try it for free and
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