Raw capture
Jesse Michels — "Eric Weinstein Debates CIA UFO Expert Hal Puthoff" (Feb 11, 2022)
Jesse Michels — "Eric Weinstein Debates CIA UFO Expert Hal Puthoff" (Feb 11, 2022)
- ~58m debate between physicist Eric Weinstein (skeptical) and Hal Puthoff, hosted by Jesse Michels.
- YouTube: https://youtu.be/iQOibpIDx-4
- Extraction: youtube_transcript.py (timestamps), 2026-05-28
- Significance: adversarial scrutiny of Puthoff from a serious physicist — Weinstein presses on the absence of physics-community evidence and the possibility Puthoff was "fed wrong information." Primary for ../../sources/puthoff-network-physicist.
[00:00:00.480] were there actually updates
in physics maybe mid-century
[00:00:03.920] that were not disclosed to the public well i
mean it quieted down because nobody ever got
[00:00:10.000] anywhere or it quieted it down because
it did get somewhere and it went black
[00:00:14.240] ladies and gentlemen it's finally here the much
anticipated conversation with eric weinstein and
[00:00:19.520] hal put off the world's most brilliant physics
mind of our time is the son of the country's most
[00:00:26.720] prominent and important anti-gravity researcher of
the 1950s i don't know what any of this is hal is
[00:00:33.760] an electrical engineer and laser physicist former
nsa and cia hal was a senior advisor to atip the
[00:00:40.320] official government ufo investigation program that
ran from 2007 to 2012 out of bigelow aerospace he
[00:00:47.920] also founded and ran the cia's psychic spy program
called stargate out of stanford research institute
[00:00:54.320] in the 70s does our government have a protocol to
wield stigma as a tool for keeping its programs
[00:01:03.360] secret certainly there are parts of the government
who consider that to be their job many of you are
[00:01:08.560] already familiar with my colleague eric weinstein
he's a mathematician who's dared to construct a
[00:01:13.120] unified theory of physics called geometric unity
he's also a prominent yet rebellious cultural
[00:01:18.720] commentator who founded the intellectual dark
web i still carry the sense of i cannot believe
[00:01:23.680] i am sitting here discussing visitations from
some intelligent life that we don't understand
[00:01:31.040] this interview is neither for the queasy
nor the faint of mind there are more videos
[00:01:35.520] some are better how much better as good as you
could probably want for many of your comments i
[00:01:40.640] haven't cut much from this interview i left
it pretty raw long form and unedited it's
[00:01:45.040] a deep technical dive into the physics of ufos
along with the implications of their prominence
[00:01:50.400] in the modern zeitgeist that is that we are
either being subjected to the most interesting
[00:01:55.680] effective and weird government psyop
of all time or our top scientists are
[00:02:00.880] missing something fundamental about the nature
of reality and finally hal gets about as candid
[00:02:06.080] as he's ever been about the government's psychic
spy program stargate while eric who's a little
[00:02:11.200] more skeptical of parapsychology tries not to
throw up we ran 70 30 instead of 50 50. sorry
[00:02:17.440] but if you want to do it feel free to do it i've
told you how to do it so you can just go do it
[00:02:23.360] okay you don't have a lot of room to move you
either have to postulate new physics or you have
[00:02:29.760] to say this isn't material everything here is
bold my conclusion is that there is something
[00:02:35.280] there i don't like losing to jesse it's horrible
losing him on ufos i don't want to lose it to him
[00:02:39.920] a second time but something is wildly off so with
that out of the way hit subscribe and get ready to
[00:02:47.600] unlearn everything you thought you knew about the
material world with eric weinstein and hal put off
[00:02:57.600] different parts have different
activities but you know that don't you
[00:03:16.320] the intelligence committee has ordered the
director of national intelligence and the
[00:03:20.480] secretary of defense to deliver a report on
the mysterious sightings of unidentified aerial
[00:03:26.960] phenomena uap more commonly known as ufos the
reason i found the report fascinating was because
[00:03:36.720] it reeked of conflict i could clearly detect a
voice an authorial voice that wanted to disclose
[00:03:43.840] more and one that said over my dead body and
the over my dead body people seem to be stronger
[00:03:51.360] but losing ground the first branch of the decision
tree is is it stuff that is unintentionally
[00:03:58.480] in the air versus stuff that is intentionally in
the air the unintentional stuff was broken into
[00:04:03.920] two categories that was clutter and atmospheric
effects the stuff that is intentionally in the
[00:04:09.680] air was broken into the next branch which was
us not us not us was broken into two things
[00:04:17.120] known others and unknown others and that other
is intentionally in the air not us not anyone we
[00:04:24.720] know not necessarily aliens could be coming out
of the ocean could be time travel i mean who the
[00:04:31.520] hell knows but anything in that other category is
astonishing i think one very important thing that
[00:04:41.200] most people in government who study this seem
to sort of have a consensus on that the public
[00:04:47.200] might not realize is the idea that there is a
separation between substrate and signature when
[00:04:53.520] it comes to ufos and there might be a difference
in terms of the way somebody perceives it and some
[00:04:58.960] underlying sort of proto architecture and so if
we have been seeing these things for thousands
[00:05:04.080] of years we've been seeing them in different
forms different forms and maybe different sources
[00:05:11.440] these days since our technology platforms are
so high to generate effects they could mimic
[00:05:20.480] and our detection platforms are so well
advanced so we could see a lot more
[00:05:28.480] then it really is a zoo of options and
possibilities and so for example for the tic
[00:05:34.160] tac videos that are so well known lou elizondo
was behind releasing those videos i remember
[00:05:40.960] seeing them in the pentagon before they were
released but there are more videos some are better
[00:05:47.840] how much better well as good as you
could probably want if you showed me
[00:05:55.840] pieces of a craft and you guaranteed me somehow
that it came from outside the solar system my
[00:06:01.040] first thought wouldn't be technology it would be
physics because everything is so far away from us
[00:06:07.840] other than our solar system that i would be
wondering well how did it get here when you look
[00:06:14.960] at the civil war in the united
states it took place in the 1860s
[00:06:22.640] within less than a hundred years we were dropping
fusion devices from jet aircraft less than a
[00:06:31.520] hundred years less than a single lifetime it
means that we almost had a nuclear civil war
[00:06:40.080] and it was a very near miss now what separated the
1860s which looked like antiquity to many of us
[00:06:48.160] from 1952 when we have the first fusion weapon
explode it was changes in our understanding of
[00:06:57.680] the physical world that means anytime you have a
profound physical insight post i don't know 1940s
[00:07:08.800] you have to ask yourself what pandora's box
with a new physical insight potentially open and
[00:07:20.240] i don't know why we're not more worried
about this i think because we've been
[00:07:23.680] failing at physics for 50 years we've gotten
out of the habit of thinking physics is really
[00:07:29.200] dangerous and you have to track every
single important physicist because any
[00:07:33.600] change in our physical understanding
of the universe can unlock holy hell
[00:07:38.640] were there actually updates in physics maybe
mid-century that were not disclosed to the public
[00:07:48.560] another puzzle we would love to have cleared
up is an understanding of the role of aerospace
[00:07:55.760] companies as holders of potentially basic
scientific knowledge not shared with the
[00:08:01.600] academic world is it possible it seems very
wrong to me may be wrong but it's um true
[00:08:08.640] it is true you believe it's true yeah i know
it's true you know that there's physics knowledge
[00:08:15.440] held by aerospace companies that is not
there certainly is materials knowledge
[00:08:20.000] materials well okay materials which
involves topological physics or whatever
[00:08:24.640] okay but fundamental physics as opposed to
you know condensed matter or right certainly
[00:08:31.680] aerospace corporations have knowledge in the
uap area that specifically are sequestered by
[00:08:41.120] against foia because of proprietary appreciables
which the whole thing was set up to be that way
[00:08:49.520] on purpose right but the idea that there would
be fundamental physical knowledge that would be
[00:08:54.400] housed in an aerospace company and not shared with
the physics community there is no evidence of that
[00:09:00.640] no evidence for it i'm not that i know of and i
wouldn't that doesn't mean it's not the case but
[00:09:06.480] that would be this crazy egregious it would
change our entire concept of who we are if
[00:09:11.520] somebody kept fundamental physics secret in
the years since we became capable of exploding
[00:09:19.040] fusion devices i would grab a pitchfork and a
tiki torch and i would march on the national
[00:09:25.360] science foundation right right i don't
i still can't believe that that's true
[00:09:31.120] it would only be if it were the case that
in fact we have mastered anti-gravity
[00:09:37.760] and they're being built by aerospace corporations
then new physics would have to be involved is
[00:09:44.480] what is called the golden age of general
relativity tied to these topics that is
[00:09:51.360] there was this bizarre surge of activity in
general relativity between you know i would say
[00:09:57.680] the time of einstein in the 50s or something like
that there wasn't a ton of development in gr and
[00:10:03.760] then suddenly there was this explosion there was
a well this explosion uh there there's a famous uh
[00:10:10.240] series came out in miami herald and other
newspapers in probably the 50s the author was
[00:10:17.440] talbert and he did a series where he found
out that a number of aerospace engineering
[00:10:25.200] companies were suddenly interested in anti-gravity
and that people like dewitt on up and down
[00:10:32.880] really top level physicists were suddenly getting
grants to look at the idea of antigravity for
[00:10:40.320] example the gravity essay came along the gravity
research foundation foundation right and so
[00:10:48.240] it looked like it's going to be a big explosion
but anyway then it all sort of quieted down and
[00:10:53.520] i could take two implications of that and that is
it quieted down because nobody ever got anywhere
[00:11:01.200] or quieted it down because it did
get somewhere and it went black
[00:11:06.000] my understanding is that there were really
twin loci of activity one of which surrounds a
[00:11:13.200] gravity research foundation in new boston new
hampshire and i guess that was the work of babson
[00:11:20.160] and the story is sort of not really very plausible
that his sister had drowned in a pond or something
[00:11:28.560] to that effect and so he had gravity as his sworn
enemy um you know this story no i had not heard
[00:11:35.920] this oh yeah so babson contacted lewis whitten who
was coming out of johns hopkins and then oddly a
[00:11:45.280] similarly named individual named bainson with
some sort of tobacco or air conditioning fortune
[00:11:51.680] reaches out to bryce dewitt and asks whether
he will found an institute at the university
[00:11:59.120] of north carolina chapel hill right for the study
of physical fields and particularly focusing on
[00:12:04.960] gravity particularly focused on gravity somehow
dewitt has the courage to answer this essay
[00:12:12.560] contest in the other silo and destigmatizes it
so there was money to be had but nobody wanted
[00:12:17.760] to touch it because of fear of ridicule from
their colleagues and then there's a famous
[00:12:23.200] gravity conference at the university of north
carolina chapel hill that sort of kicks a lot
[00:12:27.600] of this off it's a tremendous flurry
of activity at a time when anti-gravity
[00:12:32.400] was trying to break into respectability at a
minimum we know that the glenn martin company
[00:12:39.840] where martin was an early pioneer i think
from the time of the wright brothers
[00:12:45.040] that the glenn martin company becomes martin
marietta later becomes lockheed martin so
[00:12:50.000] that word martin is coming all the way through was
employing i believe lewis whitton edward whitton's
[00:12:58.240] father to do anti-gravity research somehow
tied up with wright-patterson air force base
[00:13:04.720] in ohio and the johns hopkins university
in baltimore maryland so there's something
[00:13:10.960] about aerospace in the 1950s and sort of post
manhattan project era that's pretty potent
[00:13:18.480] and we're confused by this why was solomon left
schetz the great topologist recruited to be
[00:13:26.240] involved with louis whitten and to have an entire
non-linear group working on mathematics that then
[00:13:33.920] gets moved to brown university when i believe that
these programs are sunsetted so they get spun off
[00:13:39.680] back into the academic ecosystem i don't know
what any of this is so you have top physicists
[00:13:46.800] working on crazy stuff and physicists don't
know the story yeah right yeah it's like i knew
[00:13:53.840] it because it was weird it stood out the lewis
whitten edward whitton story has never been fully
[00:14:01.200] made sense the world's most brilliant physics
mind of our time is the son of the country's
[00:14:08.640] most prominent and important anti-gravity
researcher of the 1950s do you think that string
[00:14:15.360] theory which edwin worked on is intentionally a
bridge to nowhere i have privately said to you
[00:14:22.560] that string theory was a very odd development
because it both allowed physics to proceed as
[00:14:32.720] if it was doing something new while breaking no
new ground in the physical world in which we live
[00:14:40.480] i don't really know if you were trying to stagnate
the field string theory is pretty brilliant
[00:14:48.960] if there was knowledge that allowed you to
to traverse the cosmos in other words if you
[00:14:53.600] could render einstein's theory effective the way
einstein rendered newton's theory non-fundamental
[00:15:02.480] but an effective theory derived
from einstein's theory in a limit
[00:15:07.600] to not share that knowledge with the
physics community would be seen as gross
[00:15:14.240] academic and intellectual malpractice yeah if
somebody had that level of knowledge i mean
[00:15:19.840] the best that uh you know we could do in the
in the a-tip program was say okay let's accept
[00:15:27.680] einstein's gr as being the theory okay even
though there are all kinds of arguments
[00:15:33.920] right subscribe by gr you mean general relativity
general relativity and for this subject area for
[00:15:39.200] the uap subject area as far as as we've gone is
to say okay suppose i treat general relativity
[00:15:47.600] einstein's equations for general relativity
the way i would treat maxwell's equations for
[00:15:52.240] electromagnetism if we could manipulate variables
and einstein's equations the way we manipulate
[00:15:59.600] variables in maxwell's equations you
would see certain kinds of things
[00:16:03.920] which tend to match claimed observations of
uap phenomena somewhere there's a missing key
[00:16:11.760] for how you can do manipulation of those
variables in einstein's equations without
[00:16:17.680] having to have a black hole in your pocket are you
talking about the idea that you want to promote
[00:16:25.520] constance to field content to be
actual physical fields that can
[00:16:31.040] vibrate and live and move yes i would say so but
then you have the quantum mechanical consequences
[00:16:36.720] when you promote something to field content you
break it you bought it you've got a lot of uh
[00:16:42.400] you've got fluctuations and uncertainty principles
and it contributes to all sorts of uh processes
[00:16:48.080] and sometimes you get you know explosions of
terms of series things stop converging and
[00:16:52.960] things can get quite bad is that something that
you feel you've handled well at a certain level
[00:17:04.560] how can we describe in layman's terms the idea
of promoting a constant like the gravitational
[00:17:10.560] constant into a field variable so a very kind
of helpful actual analogy used for me who's a
[00:17:16.960] i'm a total idiot when it comes to this stuff
is a circle and pi being a constant you know the
[00:17:23.760] area of a circle is pi r squared uh and so if the
circle had bumps in it or if it was topologically
[00:17:29.680] different in some way pi wouldn't be pi pi would
sort of be more variable in such circumstances
[00:17:36.800] something that you thought was a constant
turns out to be variable when considered in a
[00:17:43.200] larger space of possibilities likewise
if i ask what is the temperature in this
[00:17:48.960] room i'm feeling a little bit chilly and you
might say oh i think the temperature is 64.
[00:17:56.240] but then we might find out that in fact the room
varies between 63 degrees and the 69 degrees in a
[00:18:02.960] different corner of the room so something that you
thought was a number like we just we had inflation
[00:18:10.400] estimates of 6.8 and then 7.0 percent and i
was very angry about that because my claim was
[00:18:17.440] that you should report inflation on various maps
the way you show the temperatures in the country
[00:18:26.080] on a temperature map with gradients and isotherms
and what have you if you do that to numbers like
[00:18:32.880] for example the gravitational constant that
constant could be the value of a function
[00:18:40.000] and if it was the value of a function and
then that function became quantum mechanical
[00:18:44.480] you would have to treat it quantum mechanically
it's not cheap to replace a number by a function
[00:18:49.840] or a field we have an entire planet pulling us
towards these couches and yet when the interview
[00:18:57.760] is done we will get up from these couches
defeating an entire planet the weakness of gravity
[00:19:04.560] is one of the great mysteries of
our lives it's inconceivably weak
[00:19:12.560] true enough yeah and if we accept
gravit einstein's general relativity as
[00:19:19.920] again i'm not quite sure how much of it you
you take issue with it would seem that we are
[00:19:25.760] either prisoners here or that we have to lean
so heavily on time dilation or we would have to
[00:19:34.160] amass levels of energy i mean your point is
yeah we can't we can't do it from what we know
[00:19:41.920] for sure okay so then the idea is
we'd have to have something wrong
[00:19:47.360] in gr yeah something is at least
missing okay maybe jar is okay
[00:19:54.000] as it goes but we're missing something
that would have the effect of
[00:20:01.600] manipulating the variables in there that
we can't do with any reasonable engineering
[00:20:06.880] approach well so far as i know there's only
one analog that even smells vaguely like
[00:20:12.800] this in electromagnetism aaronoff and bohm
argued that if you pass an electron beam
[00:20:19.280] around a solenoid and pass the current through
it if it was perfectly insulated you would have
[00:20:24.400] no e and b fields out that is electric electric
and magnetic fields outside of the solenoid but
[00:20:30.240] yet you'd get a phase shift in the electron beam
is it circled this is what's known as a holonomia
[00:20:35.680] effect you guys talked about this incredible
experiment called the bohm iron off effect can
[00:20:40.400] you show me the actual experiment imagine you have
some sort of an electron gun and you have a beam
[00:20:47.840] of electrons and they hit a first mirror
so that they bounce off of that mirror
[00:20:54.560] you have a next mirror in the form of a diamond
and i'm looking down on my table top experiment
[00:21:01.520] and i've got some sort of a detector over here
if i have a wire here that's heavily heavily
[00:21:08.000] insulated i can imagine running a current
through this wire the solenoid in the center
[00:21:13.920] and the e and b fields would be dead
equal to zero because of the insulator
[00:21:19.520] however when i pass current through
this wire mysteriously the detector
[00:21:24.880] picks up different patterns of self-interference
of the phase of the electron function
[00:21:32.800] in other words this setup can detect whether
there's current passing through the wire despite
[00:21:40.000] near perfect insulation that was what
was so frightening in the late 50s
[00:21:44.080] is that we were discovering that it
wasn't the electromagnetic fields at all
[00:21:49.120] that were really the important actor in the
electromagnetic story we thought we understood
[00:21:53.840] electromagnetism from the time of maxwell but
clearly the electromagnetic four potential
[00:22:01.440] was really the main actor do we understand the
nature of the electromagnetic for potential or
[00:22:06.480] is it just this sort of geometrically i think we
have a very good handle okay and so you mentioned
[00:22:11.600] the higgs field looking like something like
analogous to like a wine bottle what would the
[00:22:16.240] electromagnetic four potential geometrically look
like well it looks like a version of the escher
[00:22:24.480] staircase or the penrose stairs in effect those
stairs would be something like we would call them
[00:22:32.560] horizontal subspaces the weird feature of going
around a circuit and always going up the stairs
[00:22:41.680] and yet never climbing in height that would
be what we would call a holonomia effect due
[00:22:48.640] to curvature paradox and you can go way
beyond that so there are all kinds of
[00:22:56.960] toroidal geometries for example where you have
no em fields whatsoever but you have strong
[00:23:04.960] vector scalar fields and since you have
no lorentz force in the absence of e and b
[00:23:12.720] then how can you detect them well you detect
them by the by any kind of quantum detector they
[00:23:19.840] can detect phase shifts can detect the vector
scalar potential even in the absence of fields
[00:23:26.720] so there's a whole engineering approach
concerning which i have two patents by the way
[00:23:33.360] and have started a new company that involves only
dealing with vector and scalar potentials when you
[00:23:41.680] are trying to come up with this analogy between
electromagnetism and general relativity to
[00:23:46.800] explain some of these effects are you dealing
only with the leviticuvida connection of the
[00:23:51.360] metric as einstein did or are you considering i'm
basically dealing with the metric coefficients
[00:23:58.080] by postulating a dielectric vacuum whose
dielectric constant values for say epsilon
[00:24:06.800] mu the permeability and permittivity of the vacuum
can be manipulated and once you manipulate those
[00:24:14.400] you're manipulating c which is one over square
root scrutiny epsilon and so once you begin
[00:24:19.840] to manipulate c then you can change effects
associated with all of the and so you could
[00:24:27.760] with this with this polarizable vacuum
approach which i published in physics journal
[00:24:35.440] you can get all of the quote tests
of general relativity and so on so
[00:24:41.120] so the fact that you might be
able to pursue that further
[00:24:44.560] by taking into account the fact that underlying
electromagnetism is is vacuum fluctuations
[00:24:52.880] which have the effect of controlling
the value for epsilon and mu so then
[00:24:59.040] you say okay well if i want to go over
to general relativity maybe i can control
[00:25:03.760] the underlying values for the metric coefficients
so there are various mathematical approaches to
[00:25:11.520] kind of pushing einstein's equations to be not
quite einsteinian so we're not talking about this
[00:25:20.000] this is what has been confusing to me there's
a question of accepting the einsteinian prison
[00:25:25.840] or trying to do to einstein what einstein did to
newton and then say there's a more fundamental
[00:25:32.400] theory and what you're really saying is that
you're trying to come up with a more fundamental
[00:25:35.840] theory than general relativity in which many of
the things that are hard coded are in fact vacuum
[00:25:43.280] expectation values that are only discernible
within the theory something like that yeah
[00:26:02.320] there are consequences after impact you have a
theory that is a greater it's more expansive than
[00:26:10.480] einstein einstein would be you can locate einstein
with you can locate einstein within it and so
[00:26:16.160] does any of the stuff in geometric unity your
theory dovetail with what you're seeing in terms
[00:26:22.000] of observables with ufos and uaps there are two
strong versions of geometric unity in one case
[00:26:31.440] you put an extra six dimensions as time dimensions
into into the mix and so one plus six is seven
[00:26:39.520] and then you've got four extra spatial dimensions
four plus the three spatial dimensions we already
[00:26:44.480] know is seven so you'd have what we would
call a split signature metric seven and
[00:26:48.800] seven seven times seven space the other way of
of effectively gluing these extra dimensions is
[00:26:55.680] in is to flip them so you'd have four extra time
dimensions that would be five time dimensions in
[00:27:02.160] total versus nine spatial with three that we
know plus six new ones in either case though
[00:27:09.760] you're talking about multiple temporal dimensions
and even physicists rarely talk about multiple
[00:27:15.920] temporal dimensions because it completely
breaks our paradigm of what we might call
[00:27:21.040] hamiltonian dynamics the idea that you you can
take any situation in space and then propagate
[00:27:28.480] it through time to get the future when you
have more than one time dimension you have
[00:27:34.880] more than one future you have no arrow of time you
have a whirlpool of time for the first additional
[00:27:41.920] time dimension then you have a right hand rule of
time and so this arrow of time becomes something
[00:27:48.240] you would call a time orientation and then the
weird horrible thing about that if i may use the
[00:27:53.680] board yeah go for it when you have more than one
temporal dimension you now have a new possibility
[00:27:59.680] that you've never considered which is you could
go back into this extra extra time dimension
[00:28:08.560] and find yourself at an earlier event without
ever having to retrace time steps you wouldn't
[00:28:14.080] have to run time backwards we don't really
know how to think about these things very well
[00:28:19.040] they lead to something which is called ultra
hyperbolic equations and we don't have a ton
[00:28:24.880] of focus or skill around these sorts of problems
one of my biggest concerns is that if geometric
[00:28:31.520] unity turns out to be true we don't know what it
means to be able to hack extra temporal dimensions
[00:28:42.720] that's a big concern i mean it would probably
explain some of this uh at least observably
[00:28:50.000] faster than speeding travel see that's the
thing there is no faster than light travel
[00:28:56.320] and we have to train people away from saying you
think we have faster than light travel there may
[00:29:01.760] be something that would appear to be faster which
temporal dimension hacking which sort of makes it
[00:29:07.520] because a lot of these uaps seem to sort of
mater materialize and dematerialize it will
[00:29:12.720] look there's certainly scope for pattern
matching if you have things like dark chemistry
[00:29:19.920] dark light if you have a multiple spatial
and temporal dimensions beyond what we know
[00:29:29.280] the concern though is we don't know whether
they're accessible the interest and the fear
[00:29:35.520] has to do with the idea that maybe somebody else
knows the answer to this and they aren't human
[00:29:44.720] so that one's called the time warp i can't
believe you never saw rocky wore a picture
[00:29:48.480] no i know it's a cult classic have you seen it
speaking of cults how weren't you in scientology
[00:29:56.080] oh year years years back i checked into it
because at that time we were doing you know
[00:30:01.680] setting up a remote viewing program we were
checking into everything silver mind control
[00:30:06.000] scientology whatever whatever i thought some
of the techniques were definitely of value but
[00:30:12.160] i disconnected from them in their mid 70s
or whatever i think what we need to do is
[00:30:17.920] we need to talk about pseudoscience and stigma
and its weaponization and its use so the first
[00:30:23.360] thing i want to ask you about is does our
government have a protocol to wield stigma
[00:30:32.880] as a tool for keeping its programs secret is the
is the government so certainly there are parts of
[00:30:39.600] the government who consider that to be their job
is there language for the manipulation of stigma
[00:30:47.040] to discourage people from under undertaking
scientific investigations that might lead them
[00:30:53.920] into an area of security concern there
is a language in there there are certain
[00:30:58.240] operations that sort of have that effect but
there are people who are trying to get around
[00:31:05.200] you you personally have been the target of a great
deal of directed stigma it would seem to me do you
[00:31:11.760] have a sense that you've been that your career has
been directed by manufactured signals certainly
[00:31:18.640] there was manufactured stigma and control we've
had people actually shut down a piece of a program
[00:31:26.240] on the basis that american taxpayer dollars
should not be spent on pursuing demonic technology
[00:31:32.880] you know denshian yeah okay i was friendly with
dan sheehan and admired his work taking on all
[00:31:40.400] these crazy cases against the government
not knowing he had any interest in ufo uap
[00:31:46.720] there was an attempt to discredit him through
stigma because of his interest in the iran contra
[00:31:53.200] matter right with the christic institute and so
i think he was fed wrong information probably
[00:31:58.080] so that he'd swing at a bad pitch and that's why i
was very interested at the weaponization of stigma
[00:32:05.040] and whether or not you were party to
any knowledge of how that is carried
[00:32:10.960] out so as to keep these programs no i've
never other than being the effect of them
[00:32:21.040] you do want to keep things like the loch
ness monster and spoon bending away from
[00:32:26.480] the ufo conversation if you can and there's
this tremendous force in this world to say
[00:32:32.720] well if we're opening our minds to ufos my aunt
lived in this house that was haunted for 27 years
[00:32:40.560] like i don't want to hear this i don't want to
listen to the fact that your aunt's house is
[00:32:45.600] wanted now the thing that goes against what i'm
saying is something like cattle mutilation so
[00:32:52.880] either somebody is an amazing sadistic animal
hoaxer or you have to open the uap story to
[00:33:03.600] them communicating something by their decision to
study cattle or leave cattle as presents for us or
[00:33:10.320] who knows what well that brings up this really
weird place called skinwalker ranch in in utah
[00:33:16.640] i think it's the near the utah basin and you
enter you went to basin and so there's a myth
[00:33:22.400] that involves the ute tribe fighting the
navajos and i believe the navajo is sick
[00:33:28.240] these skin walkers these sorts of youths were
collaborating with the united states government
[00:33:32.800] the navajo weren't so happy and so they cursed
this particular spot of land with skin waters
[00:33:38.480] and the family that used to live on the land would
see tons of cattle mutilations they'd experience
[00:33:45.120] all sorts of paranormal things bigelow buys
it bigelow is obviously very interested in the
[00:33:50.880] you know uap phenomena and now it seems like it's
this place where they do all sorts of experiments
[00:33:56.160] they have anomalous electromagnetic effects on the
grounds so what do you what do you make of this
[00:34:02.000] something is wildly off this stuff is interesting
enough that it should be attracting scientists
[00:34:10.480] and the scientists who are attracted to this
should be debunking the living crap out of this
[00:34:17.120] if it's some dime store bs but the absence of
scientists is itself puzzling yeah partially
[00:34:25.200] due to stigma partially due to the fact that
nobody wants to get sucked into some low rent
[00:34:30.480] uh horror movie where two kids see a creature
in the black lagoon and they try to tell the
[00:34:35.840] townspeople and no one believes that yeah the
question is is the stigma manufactured or is
[00:34:40.880] the stigma sigma because all this stuff is [ __
] we're pretty clear that's a lot of stigma is
[00:34:46.720] manufactured so the government talks about an
internal documents image cheapening and what's
[00:34:53.840] the context in which image cheapening is has been
used or famously against a woman who was a leading
[00:34:59.920] actress in hollywood named jean seberg and the
fbi is how we learned about image cheapening
[00:35:07.440] planted a story with a woman named joyce haber in
the los angeles times that the baby that she was
[00:35:14.720] carrying was in fact not her french husbands but
was in fact the baby of a black panther they drove
[00:35:21.760] her to suicide they drove her to miscarriage first
and then 10 years of suicide attempts but the
[00:35:26.160] key point is our government does not necessarily
blink trying to turn your reputation into absolute
[00:35:33.280] garbage if you get close to its treasured sources
and methods yeah and that is not compatible
[00:35:40.800] with saying that we have something that we don't
understand menacing our military its airspace and
[00:35:46.960] our nuclear sites very strange it's hard because
it's clear that there's some element of the psyop
[00:35:52.800] here and then it's hard to sort of separate there
has to be scion there has to be because project
[00:35:57.680] blue book yes and the pentagon report do not
seem to be particularly compatible in other words
[00:36:05.200] it appears that either we were lying then that
there's nothing to see yeah and we're telling the
[00:36:10.800] truth now or we're telling the truth then that
there's nothing to see and we're lying now that
[00:36:16.160] ufos are here what i find really interesting about
the blue book history is edward j rupelt was sort
[00:36:22.320] of running blue book he was an air force general
and he seemed pretty open-minded to the phenomena
[00:36:28.000] being real especially after kind of empirical
inquiry and then in 1952 something very bizarre
[00:36:35.280] happened which is there were a bunch of spottings
of ufo spottings around washington dc in july 1952
[00:36:43.360] and then there's a there's a caltech physicist
named h.p robertson who forms kind of a panel
[00:36:48.960] and the conclusion of the panel is basically the
government needs to systematically downplay the
[00:36:56.800] importance of the phenomena and if the public were
to know the truth it would touch off mass hysteria
[00:37:04.080] every single head of blue book from that point
forward from 52 to 69 when it ended uh became
[00:37:10.960] progressively more kind of anti-ufo and so the
question is is this you know typical cia leaked
[00:37:18.960] dock to lead us off the trail and is it [ __ ]
or um did was manufactured stigma created between
[00:37:26.480] 1952 and 1969 actually blue book maybe initially
was kind of open too what happened in 1952
[00:37:33.600] the dc ufo sightings in in july yeah i was
going to say the oh what else the first
[00:37:41.360] h-bomb h-bomb teller yeah a tele-rule on design
yeah so the concern that i have is that in 1952
[00:37:51.040] we sent off a signal just wait just the way
when north korea detonates a nuclear device
[00:37:56.720] it sends seismic waves through the earth it can't
stop sending information outside of the country
[00:38:05.200] i think in 1952 we sent a signal to the
cosmos which is that we're very very close
[00:38:11.680] to being in possession of root level knowledge to
take a software metaphor we are about to become
[00:38:17.600] root which is terrifying if you're a system
administrator that you've got a hacker that's
[00:38:21.440] about to get full control of the system it's
like your edge.org question which was uh what
[00:38:26.640] happens when we discover our own source code does
something unprecedented happen there's something
[00:38:30.960] unprecedented happen when man first aliens well
people didn't understand what the question was
[00:38:35.840] though it was the final edge question and instead
of giving an answer he asked us to give a question
[00:38:43.920] the concern that i have is that in 1952
what if there was someone there to hear
[00:38:49.120] what we said in the pacific if there was
something or someone there to hear us
[00:38:54.800] they probably heard us as saying we're
on the verge of being able to come visit
[00:39:02.400] that's terrifying the stargate program which you
ran which is a government sort of psychic spy
[00:39:09.680] program ran from 1972 to 1995 and it ended in
1995 under ed may and you know a lot of people
[00:39:19.600] after that said that it wasn't all that effective
see that's part of the uh the stigmatization well
[00:39:25.920] i was just reading skin walkers at the pentagon
you know where it talks about atip and and i guess
[00:39:32.320] yeah awesome these two programs uh and it
looks like remote viewing is sort of again
[00:39:38.560] revived i guess i don't think it ever really died
so so the question is yeah is that is that um
[00:39:44.800] creating a stigma because you're bundling in
parapsychology um which might be pseudoscience
[00:39:50.640] with the ufo stuff or or is it is there some
connection between those two things because
[00:39:55.600] there seems like a lot of overlap in terms of
the people interested in the parapsychology stuff
[00:39:59.760] and the people interested in the ufo stuff as
jacquefully and eric davis put out a very nice
[00:40:05.840] paper of six levels of uap phenomena which range
all the way from nuts and bolts at the bottom
[00:40:12.880] to spiritual or metaphysical aspects at the
top and everything kind of in between uh
[00:40:20.800] can you can you break that down for us so what
are the six levels and how how are the nuts and
[00:40:25.840] bolts at all tethered to spiritual phenomena well
actually the nutsables things but then some of
[00:40:31.440] the consequences of the nuts and bolts things
are changes in what we call ordinary reality
[00:40:38.960] which people who are the effect of
might claim that that's some kind of
[00:40:45.840] paranormal thing because that's the only
word they can come up with to describe it so
[00:40:50.080] there are paranormal things and then it's sort
of a gradation from there in the things that are
[00:40:57.680] purely non-physical but supposedly quote possibly
psychokinesis i have to admit i have such a strong
[00:41:08.000] visceral negative reaction and it's very
interesting because as jesse will tell you
[00:41:14.160] jesse was interested in this ufo uap stuff and
i couldn't be in the room with it i just i hated
[00:41:20.480] the topic it always felt like garbage to me and i
found out that i was apparently wrong about that
[00:41:26.560] the federal government is certainly tracking
this it doesn't make any sense to me still
[00:41:31.200] that we have all these sensors and we don't have
great video all over the place i don't know how
[00:41:36.960] these uaps you know could possibly evade all of
the cameras that we have outside of the government
[00:41:44.320] and we have no conclusive proof but assume okay i
was wrong about that at some level because we are
[00:41:50.240] now discussing this in the open so i'm willing to
start to revise everything that is protected by my
[00:41:58.880] desire to throw up right there's this shows
the the stigma programs it was on me right
[00:42:06.080] i'm being honest and open i still carry the sense
of i cannot believe i'm sitting here discussing
[00:42:11.520] visitations from some intelligent life
that we don't understand potentially
[00:42:17.920] uh but okay so you know a scientist should be
able to consider these things and i'm not going
[00:42:23.040] to be the prisoner of the stigma but i am going
to ask you guys av lobe at harvard setting up his
[00:42:28.800] thing to pursue it but but this is a really
important question if if you could set up a ton
[00:42:33.920] of sensors how would we know what we're seeing at
high sample size if right now we don't know what
[00:42:39.200] we're seeing at low sample size and i think one
question i'd have for you where i'd challenge you
[00:42:45.200] is is is there some physics that we will figure
out in the future around certain ability around
[00:42:53.520] certain people's ability to see these things
and that sounds really pseudoscientine crazy
[00:43:00.400] but most of the people involved in the
program seem to think that there's something
[00:43:05.280] around that and as far as as far as uh you know
why aren't we getting really clear pictures
[00:43:11.040] i mean i'm not i wouldn't say that that's
necessarily the case that we're not getting
[00:43:16.000] you may be getting really clear but you're an
average guy with an iphone let's say the craft is
[00:43:21.360] there but it's manipulating the space-time metric
so you're just going to get fuzzy outlines because
[00:43:30.800] light is being bent in various ways around
the craft and so on so you're going to get
[00:43:35.840] a lousy picture it doesn't mean because it isn't
really there i would imagine i would be drowning
[00:43:42.000] in high quality video and it's it's a great
puzzle to me that i'm sitting here discussing
[00:43:47.520] this i can't even solve this puzzle and then
the related puzzle having to do with remote
[00:43:52.000] viewing or anything like that is if i take
a materialist perspective that the world is
[00:43:58.240] created of material whose laws can be
understood and you put me in and you or say
[00:44:04.480] in two lead-lined rooms and we try to make sure
that there's no way that any of the known forces
[00:44:11.120] or matter fields can communicate you know my mind
goes to you know are we claiming that neutrinos
[00:44:18.560] are carrying the information are we claiming
that there's a new force are we claiming that um
[00:44:25.360] the world isn't material or the entanglement
is more see this is spread out and and well
[00:44:33.120] entanglement would be one of those things like
beaumaranov and casimir which has the appearance
[00:44:39.520] of being spooky right in other words if you had
a culture in which magicians possessed scientific
[00:44:47.200] knowledge they would have an edge over everyone
else because they could explain they could
[00:44:51.760] predict the bone marrow and off effect see i can
i can manipulate this electron beam without even
[00:44:57.440] having any possibility of touching it right so
this gets to the issue of advanced science being
[00:45:04.560] indistinguishable from magic and then the idea
that this is in some sense held by a particular
[00:45:10.480] silos over other silos i mean as a scientist i
either want to laugh or my blood boils well i mean
[00:45:21.600] that's kind of a justifiable position for
example early on in the cia remote viewing
[00:45:30.640] program that i set up at sri i was asked to
check out claims of a psychic english swan ingo
[00:45:40.400] had done experiments at city college in new
york under professor gertrude schmeider she
[00:45:44.800] had set up thermistors and from across the room he
could make the temperatures go up and down and so
[00:45:51.920] i took this claimed psychic invite
him out to sri to see what he could do
[00:46:02.880] we had the cork detector and so it was basically
a quantum chip inside a new metal magnetic
[00:46:08.640] shielding inside of steel dewar for electrical
shielding inside of superconducting shielding the
[00:46:15.040] requirement being that nothing could affect this
thing from the outside so we want to see if you
[00:46:19.520] can affect it he affected it unequivocally
100 percent you had this slow oscillation
[00:46:26.800] what he did was he stopped the oscillation now
what turned out to be even more quote magical was
[00:46:34.640] when we asked him you know how do you know what to
do and he said well all i did was look inside and
[00:46:40.240] then he drew out how things were related inside
that never been published and it turned out that
[00:46:46.240] they were accurate and so it was when i wrote
all that up and circulated around that's when the
[00:46:51.760] cia came knocking at my doorstep and they said oh
we've been looking for you and i said you know why
[00:46:58.000] would i do he said well the russians have been
spending millions of dollars at their best
[00:47:02.640] institutes with their best people for years no
scientists in america even believes there's such
[00:47:07.680] a thing as psychokinesis or esp or whatever and
you happen to do this experiment and so you know
[00:47:14.240] we graduated from there to having remote viewing
of super secret facilities and project titles
[00:47:21.280] hidden in safes that's how the whole program got
started it ended up being a 20-year 20 million
[00:47:28.240] dollar program i don't know what to make of all of
this i don't think any of this to me sounds real
[00:47:39.200] now that said you could imagine a one-time
backwards upgrade saying we happen to know about
[00:47:47.440] aliens for a long period we've kept it secret we
figured out the physics the physics has different
[00:47:53.360] fields we're actually able to use this we
call it psychic phenomena and so we don't
[00:47:57.440] have to give our secrets away you could
imagine a complete reworking of reality
[00:48:02.880] without that real working of
reality i would say this is bs
[00:48:07.280] what would what would be your best guess assuming
you think because you have levered a lot of your
[00:48:12.400] life into parapsychology and you've levered a lot
of your life into physics how would you reconcile
[00:48:17.920] physics with parapsychology which i realize
is a you know a 64 million dollar question but
[00:48:22.640] what would be your best guess do you have any
theory well we we it can definitely rule out
[00:48:27.680] that it's em brain waves because we put some
of our remote viewers on submarines and took
[00:48:32.800] them to the bottom of the ocean and we got
some of our best results in fact the remote
[00:48:36.720] viewers in the submarine said boy it's really
quiet here you know so yeah i mean if i think
[00:48:41.040] about it in terms of telescopy right for every
long-range field we now have a telescope so we
[00:48:48.080] have optical and radio telescopes for photons
we have neutrino telescopes which is actually
[00:48:56.480] matter rather than force we know that
neutrinos can zip through a planet and
[00:49:00.320] not even notice it was there and then we have
gravitational telescopes in the form of ligo
[00:49:05.200] and the weak force is going to be super short
range super wheat because it's effectively massive
[00:49:12.720] and we have vector scalar forces and em uh
sorry when i think about e m i'm thinking you're
[00:49:19.440] including vector and scatter potential hell yes
nobody nobody okay everybody's moved on to vector
[00:49:26.080] i don't even want to call it vector and scale
just potential they're different connections
[00:49:30.480] on fiber bundles and then you have this issue of
gravitation with ligo right so we can we can pick
[00:49:36.720] up super long-range stuff from colliding black
holes by now measuring gravity waves gluons aren't
[00:49:43.040] going to do much for you quarks aren't going to
do much for you these are the fields that really
[00:49:48.160] give us information from distant galaxies and then
there's the question of are you talking about a
[00:49:52.720] material world that we don't yet know or material
effects that is part of the material where we do
[00:49:59.920] where the somehow we have it for example i
mean you have all these but you know the usual
[00:50:06.160] issues about it not being useful to communicate
information you have this bizarre non-locality
[00:50:12.800] of entanglement but you can't use it for ftl for
faster than light communication right right so if
[00:50:20.720] two two events are space-like separated uh you're
not so far as we know there's no means of tricking
[00:50:29.040] uh an intention of controlling it
right yeah so this is what it happens
[00:50:36.240] well i'm i'm struggling with this to be to be
honest to say just to put it mildly and i don't
[00:50:42.800] like losing to jesse it's horrible losing him on
ufos i don't want to lose it to him a second time
[00:50:48.800] but i guess what the question is really you don't
have a lot of room to move you either have to
[00:50:54.080] postulate new physics you have to say that there
are new effects like iron off bone that we didn't
[00:51:00.400] understand during the physics that we already
know but we haven't unpacked them yet or you have
[00:51:04.560] to say this isn't material that there's there
they're angels and demons and spirits that uh
[00:51:10.160] that don't conform to our understanding everything
here is bold there's nothing that simply yeah we
[00:51:18.560] we saw this effect it was robust so for me i've
looked into the stargate stuff and i've talked to
[00:51:24.160] you a decent amount my conclusion is that there is
something there and yet it feels like there are a
[00:51:30.720] lot of near misses as well and it seems very hard
to instrumentalize and scale up there was plenty
[00:51:35.600] of times when we produced really good data and to
be fair there were plenty of times when it failed
[00:51:40.640] if you don't understand the causal mechanism then
you're going to have repeatability issues and so
[00:51:44.880] is there like a part of the brain like so
like the penrose thing which is probably wrong
[00:51:49.600] but you know this idea that he wrote in the
emperor's new mind that the microtubules um
[00:51:54.880] i guess that was the follow-up of the emperor's
new mind with hameroff the microtubule is our
[00:51:58.800] quantum sensor that collapses the wave function
into an eigenstate yeah i have some sympathy for
[00:52:04.160] going along that direction so you think there's
some sort of quantum sensor in the in the brain
[00:52:08.000] and do you have a top candidate for the specific
structure well i can't rule it out i mean they
[00:52:13.200] certainly started from a very fundamental thing is
and that is if you can get rid of consciousness by
[00:52:18.240] using an anesthetic then however you're doing
it must have something to do with consciousness
[00:52:24.480] if this effect exists why is it classified and
why is the government where is it in the stock
[00:52:31.200] market well there are remote viewers who use it
on the stock market so like the classic the good
[00:52:36.800] example is that you guys tried to start a hedge
fund you know just trading silver futures and
[00:52:42.080] you made something like 260 k and i think scaling
it beyond that seemed to be a big big challenge
[00:52:47.760] it was only a challenge because i didn't have the
time to do it i mean our particular thing i gotta
[00:52:56.240] i mean i want to be polite but i also want
to be aggressive my experience with money
[00:53:02.720] tells me that you can win over any skeptic
very quickly if you can just shove millions
[00:53:08.160] of dollars into their pocket by arbitraging
their skepticism okay let me let me tell you
[00:53:14.000] how to do it and you just go do it it's really
easy actually i know some people with capital
[00:53:20.720] okay just have somebody pick a couple of objects
have them label them mark it up mark it down
[00:53:29.280] and they're going to show you the object the
following day depends on what the market does
[00:53:33.280] and then you do your best to generate a
description then based on that description they
[00:53:38.240] can go back and the next day on the average you
get get your money we ran 70 30 instead of 50 50.
[00:53:47.040] and so it's two steps forward one step
backward two steps four what's that
[00:53:50.720] that's how we downed in class that's how we
got this 260 dollars which is why did you stop
[00:53:58.240] well the reason i stopped was i was already
working uh frankly 24 hours a day on on training
[00:54:03.920] the army intelligence officers and so i was
exhausted after 30 days of doing this sorry
[00:54:10.320] but if you want to do it feel free to do it i've
told you how to do it so you can just go do it
[00:54:16.240] okay now i'm having a very surreal experience
for a large portion of the conversation
[00:54:24.960] you seem absolutely cogent coherent
well-informed well-spoken and then
[00:54:30.560] there's this part that just doesn't make any
effing sense and this is the part that doesn't
[00:54:34.160] make any effing sense rolling up in a bugatti
to your gulf stream to fly to your island
[00:54:40.240] is a very powerful argument that you know what
you're talking about bitcoin community has been
[00:54:45.840] insulted by the economists they've been laughed
at by financiers and they have a phrase which i
[00:54:53.680] really detest but i think you need to hear it and
it's called number go up and number go up means
[00:54:59.280] that when you're talking to an esteemed professor
of economics or finance and they're telling you
[00:55:05.360] that you're an idiot and you say well why
don't you visit me at the yellowstone club
[00:55:09.920] i'll i'll send the jet around for you number go
up is an incredibly powerful argument because
[00:55:15.920] of human greed and avarice okay i think we
made this point what do you think about you
[00:55:21.120] know when we hear that they're unidentified aerial
phenomena that's one thing but then when somebody
[00:55:27.040] like bob lazar comes out and says that he worked
at a place called s4 which is a part of area 51
[00:55:33.600] on alien reproduction vehicles literally reverse
engineering crashed ufos what are we supposed to
[00:55:40.880] make of things like that well i mean i'm skeptical
to the degree behind the scenes we can check on
[00:55:48.480] his clearances and so on i have reason to be
skeptical so i can't absolutely rule things out
[00:55:54.400] because everything can be manipulated sure you've
looked at the magnesium bismuth piece from roswell
[00:56:01.440] which was i guess a grandfather who was a colonel
in the roswell cleanup collection this was sort of
[00:56:08.320] left in the safe and the grandson found it you do
material analysis on this bismuth magnesium piece
[00:56:13.680] the magnesium ratios were way off i mean not even
close to being natural it can micro size wave guys
[00:56:23.520] channels you know to me only data counts have no
idea whether the story of somebody finding in his
[00:56:30.080] grandfather's diary and so on is true or not so
the only data i have is this piece of material
[00:56:37.360] and does it have any unusual properties that that
are interesting well i can check that out and i
[00:56:42.560] found out that it did have this miniaturization of
waveguide channels well below wavelength which is
[00:56:50.800] quite an accomplishment but once
you realize how many materials work
[00:56:55.440] you can do that so so that was interesting
[00:57:06.800] i definitely believe that many people have
been through the experience of contact
[00:57:14.160] whether or not that's completely in their head or
a government induced hypnotic state or who knows
[00:57:20.080] what i no longer believe this is just a bunch
of people looking for attention well it's good
[00:57:26.400] that's what i'm saying that that makes it the most
interesting thing in the world because it's either
[00:57:31.200] the best if you're the force ranked psyops it's
up there in terms of you know the the intersection
[00:57:36.400] between interesting and effective it's good how
we really appreciate you being here eric thank
[00:57:42.240] you for co-hosting you were a great uh co-host you
asked a lot of questions that i could not jesse
[00:57:48.080] i really appreciate what you're doing trying to
get this issue out in front of the public and
[00:57:52.960] get it taken seriously and putting it on it you
know it's best foot forward awesome thank you
[00:57:58.240] perfect conversation though it's always very
exciting to you know delve into these things
[00:58:03.840] so yeah i think so too and i think there are
a lot of loose threads but uh to be content
[00:58:09.440] with a lot of loose threads yeah we'll
chase them all okay sounds good thanks