Jesse Michels - "Eric Weinstein Demands UFO Secrets From Pentagon Scientist" (March 8, 2026)

• Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnxasfyHtfo
• Channel: Jesse Michels
• Published: 2026-03-08
• Duration: 3:59:03
• Participants: Eric Weinstein, Eric Davis, Jesse Michels, and Jack Sarfatti
• Extraction: complete English auto-generated YouTube captions retrieved with youtube_transcript.py --timestamps, 2026-08-28
• Fidelity note: automated captions preserve source timing but may contain recognition and speaker-attribution errors.
• Analytical pages: ../../sources/eric-weinstein-uap-claims; ../../sources/davis-career-and-claims

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[00:00:00.160] So, you're going to create a wormhole on
[00:00:01.839] demand.
[00:00:02.639] >> You should be able to. That's what my
[00:00:04.880] research showed.
[00:00:07.440] >> So, walk me through how do I get to
[00:00:09.280] Alpha Century by engineering a
[00:00:12.080] traversible wormhole?
[00:00:14.639] >> Well, you're going to create [snorts]
[00:00:15.920] Eric Davis. You are kind of synonymous
[00:00:18.160] with [music] UFO science. You have an
[00:00:20.160] amazing background at Aerospace
[00:00:22.240] Corporation, Earth Tech, worked with
[00:00:24.240] NASA Lewis. Eric Weinstein, you are a
[00:00:26.800] math PhD from Harvard who is dared to uh
[00:00:29.840] present a theory of everything in
[00:00:32.000] physics.
[00:00:32.960] >> The alleged Roswell crash was real.
[00:00:36.160] There was a there there really happened.
[00:00:38.719] >> How is it possible that something this
[00:00:40.559] large that involves this many people has
[00:00:42.480] zero incontrovertible pieces of
[00:00:44.719] evidence?
[00:00:45.360] >> Do you dispute the existence of atomic
[00:00:47.200] weapons because you can't access it?
[00:00:49.920] >> I can access it.
[00:00:51.360] >> Oh, you can access it?
[00:00:52.879] >> I have no idea what we just did. It is a
[00:00:55.199] crash retrieval. Nonhuman intelligence,
[00:00:57.600] nonhuman technology.
[00:00:59.120] >> How many of those crash retrieval
[00:01:00.960] program people have you met?
[00:01:02.239] >> I think it's five total. There's no
[00:01:04.640] physics in it. They're just
[00:01:05.439] >> It doesn't make any sense.
[00:01:06.880] >> Say again.
[00:01:07.439] >> It defies the laws of physics. We
[00:01:09.439] haven't made progress. We have no
[00:01:11.280] physicists. How are they doing on this
[00:01:13.520] project decades in?
[00:01:15.840] >> This thing is not a Manhattan project.
[00:01:17.840] And you know what the Manhattan project
[00:01:19.600] was?
[00:01:19.920] >> Not one of these proposals excites me.
[00:01:22.240] They're boring as sin.
[00:01:24.320] I don't like GR. Why are you not
[00:01:26.799] tweaking [music] it?
[00:01:27.920] >> I'm don't have intuition on how I could
[00:01:31.360] twe tweak it.
[00:01:33.200] >> Are there propulsion modalities that
[00:01:35.920] you're high conviction in that transcend
[00:01:38.479] chemical combustion?
[00:01:40.640] >> Yeah, it goes way beyond even advanced.
[00:01:44.240] >> Are you aware of reports that we are
[00:01:47.680] being
[00:01:49.200] >> made to know that we do not control
[00:01:50.696] [music] our space?
[00:01:52.079] >> Yes. When you see smoke at this level,
[00:01:54.320] the question is what is the nature of
[00:01:55.759] the fire? There are different fires
[00:01:58.000] >> or there's a smoke machine
[00:01:59.600] >> or there's a smoke.
[00:02:00.799] >> Right. Right. Epste was running many
[00:02:02.799] different programs. It wasn't even
[00:02:04.560] Epstein probably running.
[00:02:06.719] >> Look, I believe we can leave. And if you
[00:02:09.039] believe you can leave, you have to
[00:02:10.800] imagine that you're being visited.
[00:02:13.760] >> Ignition sequence.
[00:02:16.896] [music]
[00:02:17.520] >> Now, is this possible?
[00:02:19.920] >> Nothing too unusual about that. Their
[00:02:24.101] [music] existence cannot longer be
[00:02:26.080] denied.
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[00:05:44.240] That's jesse j ssetore.com.
[00:05:48.800] Please support our show and tell them we
[00:05:50.880] sent you. Dr. Eric Weinstein, Dr. Eric
[00:05:53.600] Davis, this is an absolute honor. I
[00:05:56.160] can't believe this is finally happening.
[00:05:58.560] Um, I think often in this space in when
[00:06:02.320] we're talking about UFOs, UFO legacy,
[00:06:04.479] reverse engineering programs, you have
[00:06:08.160] uh like a wave function that never sort
[00:06:10.319] of collapses and you have, you know,
[00:06:12.400] different sides saying things that are
[00:06:15.600] mutually exclusive and truth it never
[00:06:18.319] collapses into true or false. And uh I'm
[00:06:21.440] really excited to do this because uh
[00:06:23.840] Eric Weinstein, you probably need no
[00:06:26.080] introduction when it comes to kind of a
[00:06:27.680] a general audience. You are uh a math
[00:06:30.639] PhD from Harvard, uh premier cultural
[00:06:33.759] commentator of our generation, uh who
[00:06:36.160] has dared to uh present a theory of
[00:06:38.880] everything in physics. Uh and then Eric
[00:06:41.759] Davis, you definitely need no
[00:06:43.120] introduction in in UFO space. Uh but to
[00:06:45.759] maybe a more general audience, you know,
[00:06:47.919] some of whom who might have seen you in
[00:06:49.440] this recent Age of Disclosure movie, uh
[00:06:52.479] you are kind of synonymous with UFO
[00:06:54.800] science. You have an amazing background
[00:06:57.440] um at aerospace corporation, uh Earth
[00:07:00.400] Tech, uh you've worked with NASA Lewis,
[00:07:03.199] uh you've worked on on various
[00:07:04.400] initiatives in uh exotic propulsion,
[00:07:07.280] directed energy, and so very excited to
[00:07:09.919] have you both today. I want to make this
[00:07:12.479] kind of two parts. one part is kind of
[00:07:15.120] establishing ground truth on uh Eric
[00:07:18.479] Davis's uh claims because he's invest
[00:07:21.199] he's formally investigated this UFO
[00:07:23.280] legacy reverse engineering program. So I
[00:07:25.199] want to figure out what those claims are
[00:07:27.599] for the audience. And then part two and
[00:07:30.080] this is why we have you here Dr.
[00:07:32.319] Weinstein is I want to figure out and
[00:07:36.720] this is kind of actually a followup on
[00:07:38.800] this thing we did with Hal Putoff last
[00:07:40.639] time.
[00:07:42.240] If there is a theoretical physics
[00:07:44.240] component to this UFO legacy reverse
[00:07:47.280] engineering program, is there physics
[00:07:49.599] hiding in private aerospace
[00:07:51.360] corporations? Physics you can think of
[00:07:53.840] as the rules of reality itself that
[00:07:56.400] would be problematic to say the least if
[00:07:58.479] that were the case. And so I'm very
[00:08:00.000] excited to to speak to you both.
[00:08:02.160] >> Thank you. Thank you very much.
[00:08:03.599] >> Thanks for having me.
[00:08:04.720] >> Awesome. So um Eric Davis, I I want to
[00:08:08.160] start with you. um when did you become
[00:08:11.840] aware of this UFO legacy reverse
[00:08:15.120] engineering program and and and how did
[00:08:18.000] you become aware of it and and how are
[00:08:19.520] you so high confidence in it? Um I was
[00:08:22.479] working at NIDS uh it'd be 30 years this
[00:08:26.000] July and I was the director of aerospace
[00:08:29.199] physics and astrophysics uh research at
[00:08:31.440] NIDS that's national institute for
[00:08:33.360] discovery science that Bob Bigalow
[00:08:35.039] founded in 1995 and um uh I was hired in
[00:08:39.440] July of 96 along with Colum Keller and
[00:08:42.000] George Onette and uh John Alexander was
[00:08:45.360] already there on the staff also served
[00:08:47.440] as a member of the science advisory
[00:08:50.160] board. So I worked for Air Force
[00:08:51.600] Research Lab after NIDS and before
[00:08:54.000] Halputoff hired me atte Okay. So then uh
[00:08:57.440] during my work at AFRL and then during
[00:08:59.839] my 15 years working with Halputoff we
[00:09:02.399] got involved with the OAP/ATIP
[00:09:04.959] and then later on the SE the separate
[00:09:07.040] attempt called ATIP and then the UAP
[00:09:09.519] task force that Jay Stratton led and uh
[00:09:12.560] using my security clearances my need to
[00:09:14.880] know my access including my letter that
[00:09:17.839] I'm deputized by Jim Lowsky as a
[00:09:20.160] representative of the of the Defense
[00:09:21.680] Intelligence Agency. I used all that
[00:09:24.080] leverage and authority to get into the
[00:09:26.640] crash retrieval program. I couldn't get
[00:09:28.160] access to CCraft bodies or talk to the
[00:09:30.800] people, but I was able to get in to the
[00:09:32.959] people who handled all of that at a
[00:09:35.200] programmatic level and got confirmation
[00:09:37.040] that all of that was real, that all of
[00:09:38.640] it happened.
[00:09:39.279] >> And and what's your conviction level in
[00:09:41.440] say Roswell for example? Like that being
[00:09:43.440] a real crash involving non-human
[00:09:46.640] biologics?
[00:09:47.680] >> It's 100%.
[00:09:48.720] >> 100%.
[00:09:49.440] >> It's 100%. And it wasn't in Roswell, New
[00:09:52.080] Mexico. was on the Foster Ranch in
[00:09:53.680] Corona, New Mexico, which is 30 mi from
[00:09:55.839] Roswell.
[00:09:56.560] >> This landed at a ranch at Corona, New
[00:09:58.720] Mexico, and the rancher turned it over
[00:10:00.800] to the Air Force. Army officers say the
[00:10:02.959] missile found sometime last week has
[00:10:05.200] been inspected at Roswell, New Mexico,
[00:10:07.360] and sent to right field, Ohio for
[00:10:09.360] further inspection. I had my uh
[00:10:12.000] information I got from Ed Mitchell at a
[00:10:14.000] science advisory board meeting about the
[00:10:16.079] Greer briefings on the disclosure
[00:10:17.839] project at at the Pentagon and then
[00:10:19.760] Admiral Wilson coming back and verifying
[00:10:21.839] that the Roswell crash well the Corona
[00:10:24.560] crash actually really did happen. It
[00:10:26.800] wasn't a mogul balloon. It wasn't a raw
[00:10:28.640] wind radar uh test balloon project. It
[00:10:32.079] wasn't a weather balloon. It wasn't
[00:10:33.440] anything of that nature. It was a real
[00:10:35.440] craft of unknown origin that was um
[00:10:37.680] adjudicated to be not of human origin or
[00:10:40.320] constru construct and um it crashed on
[00:10:43.200] that on the Foster Ranch in Cronin,
[00:10:45.120] Mexico. And then there's my work with
[00:10:47.200] Dave Drush when I was at the aerospace
[00:10:48.880] corporation. He was at the aerospace
[00:10:50.480] corporation building in Colorado Springs
[00:10:52.800] because he worked for their government
[00:10:54.399] customer which occupied one or two
[00:10:56.480] floors there.
[00:10:57.279] >> What was David Gush doing in that
[00:10:58.800] capacity? uh he was I think a security
[00:11:02.480] contractor or advisor to a a program
[00:11:06.959] manager. Dave was the NRO liaison
[00:11:10.160] officer to the UAP task force. So he uh
[00:11:14.160] took direction from J Stratton.
[00:11:15.839] >> Wasn't he a national geospatial agency?
[00:11:18.000] >> No, I said the NRO, the National
[00:11:19.760] Reconnaissance.
[00:11:20.399] >> Yeah, you said that but I thought he was
[00:11:21.600] National Geospace.
[00:11:22.399] >> No, that was later.
[00:11:23.120] >> That was later. That was later. Okay. So
[00:11:24.720] he's the NRO li. So during the UAPF, he
[00:11:28.399] was the liaison officer on behalf of the
[00:11:30.480] NRO to the task force.
[00:11:32.560] >> Yep. Got it.
[00:11:33.519] >> So he worked with Travis Taylor, Jay
[00:11:36.079] Stratton, um uh there's some other folks
[00:11:38.880] that don't want to be named. I know. So
[00:11:40.959] I just know that there's a core group of
[00:11:42.640] four there's a core core group of 40
[00:11:45.440] people but there was a peripheral body
[00:11:47.839] of a thousand people that contributed uh
[00:11:51.040] sometime some of their time and labor
[00:11:53.440] and resources and the other government
[00:11:54.959] agencies DoD agencies intelligence
[00:11:56.880] agencies to feed information to the task
[00:12:00.240] force.
[00:12:00.640] >> A lot of people ask about kind of
[00:12:02.000] circular reporting when it comes to UFO
[00:12:05.360] you know testimonies. David Grush is
[00:12:08.399] what a lot of people I think are hinged
[00:12:10.399] hinging their belief on because he's
[00:12:12.560] just seems like a very kind of honest
[00:12:13.920] above board guy who stumbled into a lot
[00:12:15.519] of this stuff. Um, how many of his
[00:12:18.320] witnesses, his 40 witnesses are more of
[00:12:21.120] kind of the hapless engineer type that
[00:12:23.279] just worked on the vehicles versus
[00:12:25.440] people who have, you know, kind of
[00:12:27.040] secondhand or, you know, third hand.
[00:12:28.880] >> No, they're all firsthand. It's just
[00:12:30.240] that uh it's something that Eric and I
[00:12:33.440] had lots of hours and hours of
[00:12:35.200] conversations about two years ago. Not a
[00:12:36.880] single of them were were a physicist.
[00:12:40.463] [laughter]
[00:12:41.279] >> Not a single one of these guys were
[00:12:42.639] physicists. They had some discipline in
[00:12:44.480] engineering in their in their ex in
[00:12:46.320] their profession. They were either
[00:12:47.760] electrical engineers, material
[00:12:49.360] scientists, uh aerospace engineers,
[00:12:51.680] aeromechanical, aerothermal, thermal
[00:12:53.680] control, fluid mechanics. [laughter]
[00:12:55.360] >> Yeah.
[00:12:56.079] >> Save save that.
[00:12:57.279] >> There wasn't a real physicist there.
[00:12:58.560] Nobody at the PhD level who is either an
[00:13:00.720] applied physicist or an or a theoretical
[00:13:03.040] physicist.
[00:13:03.600] >> Save that thought please because that is
[00:13:05.760] going to basically be the entire kind of
[00:13:08.079] premise for the second part of this. Do
[00:13:10.959] you have any questions as I'm sort of,
[00:13:12.720] you know,
[00:13:13.120] >> well, you know,
[00:13:15.920] look, one of the things that I dislike
[00:13:17.760] very strongly about the UAP world is
[00:13:20.639] that you spend an inordinate amount of
[00:13:23.279] time if you're just trying to be an
[00:13:24.480] honest analytic person with the is there
[00:13:27.200] any actual tangible incontrovertible
[00:13:30.639] proof? And it always seems like there's
[00:13:33.040] somehow this tight-knit group of people
[00:13:36.880] who in general themselves don't have
[00:13:39.040] direct proof, but sort of have proof one
[00:13:41.360] thing away. And
[00:13:44.399] people build entire
[00:13:46.639] theories about, you know, the names of
[00:13:49.200] crafts and who was where and and I just
[00:13:52.000] have no idea as a civilian uh and a
[00:13:55.040] technical civilian um how to think about
[00:13:58.959] this because I don't want to spend our
[00:14:00.880] time in the is it real or not
[00:14:04.000] mode because that basically wastes time
[00:14:05.839] and it's also how con conspirators get
[00:14:08.959] people not to work on conspiracy
[00:14:10.720] theories that could work is that you
[00:14:12.720] demonize and stigmatize the behavior.
[00:14:15.839] So, I usually would prefer in this this
[00:14:18.000] situation to just decamp and assume the
[00:14:19.839] nature of all of these things, but just
[00:14:22.000] to be honest and and it just needs to be
[00:14:23.920] said once.
[00:14:24.800] >> I've been looking at this now, I don't
[00:14:26.079] know, 5 years since Jesse first crammed
[00:14:28.480] it down my throat, and I would say
[00:14:31.199] >> uh I was clearly wrong about it. It's an
[00:14:33.360] enormous area. There's so many people
[00:14:35.279] who claim to have had contact with this
[00:14:37.519] program in one form or another. I I
[00:14:39.760] can't believe that anyone could train an
[00:14:41.199] acting troop at Brando levels of
[00:14:43.839] sincerity uh to lie to me like that. On
[00:14:47.600] the other hand, I've never seen anything
[00:14:51.040] like it where I can't get a single shred
[00:14:52.959] of incontrovertible proof and so many
[00:14:55.600] people seem to have it, but they all
[00:14:57.360] seem to be under some kind of an NDA
[00:15:00.320] where they can't give something real. So
[00:15:02.399] the just the first frustrating question
[00:15:04.079] is how is it possible that something
[00:15:06.880] this large that involves this many
[00:15:08.480] people has zero scientifically
[00:15:11.440] incontrovertible pieces of evidence so
[00:15:14.000] that we can actually
[00:15:16.160] there's no way to predicate a discussion
[00:15:17.839] in a way that I know that's that's
[00:15:19.600] responsible. It just completely eludes
[00:15:21.279] the scientific community.
[00:15:22.560] >> Yeah. It's because the incontrovertible
[00:15:24.240] evidence is kept in the classified realm
[00:15:26.240] for for security reasons. Well, but
[00:15:28.639] again, I don't want to I don't want to
[00:15:29.920] >> Do you Do you dispute the existence of
[00:15:31.760] atomic weapons because you can't access
[00:15:33.920] it?
[00:15:34.959] >> I can access it.
[00:15:36.399] >> Oh, you can access it? Yes. If I look at
[00:15:39.120] if I look at the
[00:15:40.240] >> plutonium core?
[00:15:41.199] >> No, I never kept the demon core in my
[00:15:43.519] basement.
[00:15:44.079] >> Oh, how about the uh [laughter] how
[00:15:45.519] about the
[00:15:45.920] >> But I appreciate the
[00:15:46.720] >> lithium 6 fuel and the primary new.
[00:15:49.360] >> Oh, we used to do that in high school.
[00:15:51.040] >> Oh,
[00:15:51.519] >> no. No. What I'm saying is is that the
[00:15:53.279] Teleron design is released as a highly
[00:15:56.560] redacted report, right? And so I have an
[00:15:59.440] idea from plenty of sources that this
[00:16:03.680] program exists. And what's more, in the
[00:16:05.519] case of of of atomic weapons,
[00:16:09.120] physicists are not perfectly locked
[00:16:11.920] down. It's a high trust community and in
[00:16:14.240] general people are willing to talk uh
[00:16:17.360] you know even if they shouldn't about
[00:16:19.759] the role of physics and atomic weapons.
[00:16:22.480] I have never heard a colleague not once
[00:16:26.160] at a high level in physics give any
[00:16:28.720] credence to this world. In other words,
[00:16:31.279] >> well that's because they didn't have
[00:16:32.399] access. They didn't have need to know.
[00:16:34.320] They didn't have a contract where they
[00:16:35.680] had to have access
[00:16:36.720] >> which again it's not it's not a
[00:16:38.160] challenge in that sense assume that
[00:16:39.440] there is a dividing line but it means
[00:16:42.399] that
[00:16:44.240] in the Manhattan project right we we
[00:16:46.560] called in Fineman
[00:16:49.040] and Boore and Fairmy and Vonman and put
[00:16:54.639] them under Robert Oppenheimer and and
[00:16:56.720] Teller and all these cats and okay
[00:16:58.800] >> Bethy and
[00:16:59.839] >> and Beta right
[00:17:01.519] >> so but in so doing. I would say, okay, I
[00:17:05.520] would imagine that if this is an
[00:17:07.360] existential threat that there's stuff
[00:17:09.360] from someplace we can't understand that
[00:17:11.679] moves and and breaks the laws of physics
[00:17:13.919] and all this, we would call that in.
[00:17:16.079] Now, one of the great things that came
[00:17:17.280] out of our our discussions before is you
[00:17:19.360] said this thing which I repeated on
[00:17:21.120] Rogan because I didn't think it was
[00:17:22.160] classified. You said when it comes to
[00:17:24.160] being technical just at this point, but
[00:17:25.760] that they don't invite in physics. You
[00:17:27.600] said uh you you said that uh Eric you,
[00:17:32.400] me and Halputoff are the three most
[00:17:35.039] technical people on this and I said I'm
[00:17:37.520] not on this.
[00:17:38.240] >> Yeah, that's [laughter]
[00:17:39.919] that's the problem. You should be in it.
[00:17:41.360] >> Okay, but but that makes you Oenheimer
[00:17:44.640] and Vonoyman and Fineman and Beta and
[00:17:47.520] Fermy is Howal or something like that.
[00:17:50.160] In other words, or or the reverse. But
[00:17:54.000] are are you and how our Manhattan
[00:17:55.600] project?
[00:17:58.080] >> No, we're not directly involved. We've
[00:18:00.080] been exposed to it officially for the
[00:18:02.559] purpose of the OAPs goals.
[00:18:05.440] >> What is the question that I wish to ask?
[00:18:07.440] Do you can you figure
[00:18:08.559] >> Well, I think I think what Eric's trying
[00:18:10.320] to ask and then I do want to actually
[00:18:12.320] continue along the former lines of just
[00:18:14.320] asking about kind of core evidence with
[00:18:16.240] with Dr. Davis. But I think the question
[00:18:18.400] that Eric is trying to ask is you just
[00:18:22.000] mentioned that none of Grush's, you
[00:18:24.160] know, 40 witnesses that he, you know,
[00:18:26.160] handed over to the, uh, intelligence
[00:18:28.080] community inspector general, uh, are
[00:18:30.400] theoretical physicists, right?
[00:18:32.160] >> And so you have, you know, your physics
[00:18:34.480] PhD, how's an electrical engineer, and
[00:18:37.120] >> well, he's also, well, his, uh, PhD was
[00:18:40.000] in laser physics because when you go to
[00:18:42.080] Stanford in the 1960s, you can't get a
[00:18:44.320] PhD in physics or a master's. So, so
[00:18:46.320] it's you two and then Eric who is a a
[00:18:49.039] you know math PhD at the highest level
[00:18:50.960] who can keep up with you know any
[00:18:53.200] physicist in the country and has his own
[00:18:55.039] physics theory of everything I know.
[00:18:56.559] >> And so it's so it's all all three of you
[00:18:58.400] guys but all three of you are outsiders.
[00:19:01.039] He's a real outsider. You two have
[00:19:02.880] officially investigated this stuff and
[00:19:04.559] you're saying there are no theoretical
[00:19:06.559] physicists on the core program.
[00:19:08.960] >> I have never seen one. I've never gotten
[00:19:10.880] evidence from the people from the
[00:19:12.559] leadership at at the aeros two aerospace
[00:19:15.200] companies I personally interviewed with.
[00:19:17.679] So I don't mean interviewed with but who
[00:19:19.520] I investigated and interviewed
[00:19:21.280] leadership and a few of the worker bees
[00:19:24.640] involved.
[00:19:25.360] >> Are there propulsion modalities that
[00:19:28.240] your high conviction and that transcend
[00:19:30.799] chemical combustion?
[00:19:32.799] Yeah, it goes way beyond even advanced
[00:19:35.679] nuclear and uh nuclear in aerospace
[00:19:38.240] industry is fision fusion and matter
[00:19:40.960] antimatter annihilation way beyond that.
[00:19:43.760] Um I don't think we have a grasp of it.
[00:19:46.320] I haven't heard anybody that I've
[00:19:48.000] interviewed uh say that they have a
[00:19:50.480] grasp of it. And even as recently uh
[00:19:53.840] unfortunately
[00:19:55.360] um the one technical person who ended up
[00:19:58.720] becoming a senior VP decades later uh at
[00:20:02.720] the biggest of the aeros legacy
[00:20:04.400] aerospace companies uh he was a material
[00:20:06.880] scientist working on the crash retrieval
[00:20:09.039] program after after getting his doctor
[00:20:10.960] after earning his doctorate and he got
[00:20:12.640] hired straight away to work on it for
[00:20:14.880] about uh roughly two decades.
[00:20:16.880] >> Who is this?
[00:20:18.400] >> Who is that?
[00:20:19.280] >> I'm not worried. So um uh so basically
[00:20:23.760] he's a material scientist. We've had a
[00:20:25.520] lot of classified and unclassified
[00:20:27.200] discussions and I brought these
[00:20:30.080] questions up. I asked his questions.
[00:20:31.919] Yeah. And the and the answer is no. You
[00:20:34.559] we we didn't have theoretical physicist
[00:20:37.520] that we could put on this. We're
[00:20:38.880] strictly limited
[00:20:40.080] >> in the number of people on the bigot
[00:20:41.760] list. The bigot list is the list of
[00:20:43.280] people who have need to know and access
[00:20:45.039] to a particular classified program. And
[00:20:47.440] if you're not on that list, you don't
[00:20:49.120] get admitted. you'll get invited.
[00:20:50.880] >> This is an unagnowledged waved and
[00:20:53.280] bigoted self uh special uncknled it's a
[00:20:56.480] waved unagnowledged special access
[00:20:58.080] program, right? And so, uh I said, "So,
[00:21:01.360] where are your physicists? What are your
[00:21:02.559] theor theoretical and applied physicists
[00:21:04.559] telling you?" He said, "Well, we don't
[00:21:05.600] have any. We never did. We only were
[00:21:07.600] allowed to keep it down to roughly a
[00:21:09.840] handful of people in the company to work
[00:21:11.840] on this and that's [clears throat] it."
[00:21:12.960] And it's limited to engineering. There's
[00:21:14.880] no physics in it. There
[00:21:16.159] >> doesn't make any sense.
[00:21:17.360] >> Say again.
[00:21:19.280] I'm just I'm just trying to logically
[00:21:21.200] think about this. Okay. And you know,
[00:21:22.960] it's it's like saying we're having
[00:21:25.120] trouble performing, uh, Beethoven's
[00:21:27.520] fifth, and we have the finest
[00:21:29.600] accountants, optometrists, boxers, uh,
[00:21:33.760] and cardio trainers. And you're like,
[00:21:35.760] well, what about violinists and violists
[00:21:38.640] and anybody playing the French horn? And
[00:21:41.120] it's like, oh, well, we don't we don't
[00:21:42.880] do that.
[00:21:43.919] >> So, of course, you're not going to play
[00:21:45.440] Beethoven's fifth. I mean, because you
[00:21:47.440] can't engineer your way out of a science
[00:21:49.520] problem.
[00:21:50.400] >> Yeah. Well, let me tell you, I think
[00:21:51.919] you've got a great point about talking
[00:21:53.440] about Manhattan, the Manhattan Project.
[00:21:56.000] This this thing is not a Manhattan
[00:21:58.799] project. And you know what the Manhattan
[00:22:00.720] Project was? We both do. We read the
[00:22:02.159] books. Um, it was multi how many people?
[00:22:05.679] Thousands of people. Multi-disiplinary.
[00:22:07.600] >> The white badges was the very small
[00:22:09.280] core, but the the whole thing was
[00:22:10.960] enormous.
[00:22:11.760] >> Yeah. You had industrial engineers, um,
[00:22:14.400] computational engineers, electrical
[00:22:16.240] engineers, mechanical engineers,
[00:22:18.640] explosives experts, nuclear ex nuclear
[00:22:21.679] physicist and nuclear engineers. You had
[00:22:24.000] everybody of of all the STEM disciplines
[00:22:26.080] there. You had to have mathematicians
[00:22:28.400] >> and uh they were involved with that
[00:22:30.240] program to build up the the fuel design,
[00:22:33.919] characterization, and manufacturer. But
[00:22:36.480] this program does it. These programs
[00:22:38.159] don't have that. They deliberately keep
[00:22:40.000] it divided up among different companies
[00:22:41.600] to maintain plausible deniability in
[00:22:43.840] case there's a leak and they keep it
[00:22:45.679] very small for the reason
[00:22:47.440] >> but it has to be centralized somewhere.
[00:22:49.120] The compartmentalized nature of Los
[00:22:50.960] Alamos and uh the Manhattan Project more
[00:22:54.080] broadly
[00:22:55.600] um was still overseen by a small group
[00:22:58.400] who had universal access.
[00:23:00.000] >> That's right. And also note that the
[00:23:02.320] Manhattan Project people had their
[00:23:04.159] families living with them too in a
[00:23:05.919] closed city.
[00:23:06.640] >> That's right.
[00:23:07.120] >> That's right. So they don't have an
[00:23:09.039] equivalent for this in the crash
[00:23:10.400] retrieval program. Um so there's dis
[00:23:15.440] disjointed groups of people, small
[00:23:17.440] numbers of people. They're not allowed
[00:23:19.200] to know about the other people
[00:23:22.480] and what they're doing.
[00:23:23.120] >> Those are the people who are in the
[00:23:24.960] stovepiped architecture,
[00:23:26.559] >> right? And the central u
[00:23:29.120] >> the central portfolio owner is a
[00:23:31.919] three-letter intelligence agency. So
[00:23:33.760] that's who's is centrally in charge. It
[00:23:35.840] was Lesie Grove in the United States.
[00:23:37.280] Was it the Was Lesie the uh general of
[00:23:40.000] the uh Army Corps of Engineers or was he
[00:23:42.720] in a different
[00:23:43.679] >> I don't remember where he was.
[00:23:44.960] >> Okay. But he was in charge on behalf of
[00:23:46.799] the army. He ran it. He was the military
[00:23:49.360] boss and Oppenheimer was the civilian
[00:23:51.840] boss of the Manhattan project.
[00:23:53.360] >> Do do you take uh David Grush at face
[00:23:56.000] value that Dick Cheney was the last head
[00:23:58.799] honcho of this sort of program
[00:24:02.080] >> and there's not really a mob boss. The
[00:24:04.159] closest person we got that uh I was
[00:24:07.200] aware of was unfortunately now deceased
[00:24:10.320] Vice President Dick Cheney. Uh Darth
[00:24:12.559] Vader himself. Not shocking that he was
[00:24:15.200] involved in this. And essentially when
[00:24:17.840] he left in 2009, that was the last time
[00:24:20.159] that these activities really had central
[00:24:22.080] leadership.
[00:24:22.880] >> I never heard that before. So that never
[00:24:25.120] came up in our in our classified and
[00:24:27.279] unclassified conversations. I'm not
[00:24:29.039] aware that Dick Cheney had any role
[00:24:31.039] >> to speak to this threeletter. the the
[00:24:32.799] the head the head you cited a
[00:24:34.640] three-letter in our discussion at soul
[00:24:36.880] in San Francisco you directly said CIA
[00:24:40.559] DS&T at one time Glenn Gaffne etc. So
[00:24:43.440] was the UFO program portfolio owner so
[00:24:46.559] to Dr. Weinstein's question about
[00:24:49.120] technical rigor physicists. Did you ever
[00:24:51.360] have the opportunity to to ask anybody
[00:24:53.679] near the head of this apparatus? Why
[00:24:56.720] there wasn't a stronger motivation to
[00:24:58.880] have physicists on staff? I mean, from
[00:25:00.880] an early era, why was there not that
[00:25:03.440] prioritization?
[00:25:04.880] >> Well, I would love to talk to the head
[00:25:06.400] of the crash retrieval program during
[00:25:08.159] that era, but he refused to talk to us.
[00:25:10.640] >> And that was that was Glen Gaffne.
[00:25:12.640] >> Yeah. Glen Glen Gaffne. And who is Jim
[00:25:15.120] Ryder?
[00:25:17.600] OSAP was originally intended to skip out
[00:25:20.640] Bigalow Aerospace facilities in Las
[00:25:22.559] Vegas due to a UAP material divestment
[00:25:27.360] plan proposal to OAP leadership by
[00:25:30.640] Loheed Martin space systems vice
[00:25:33.440] president Dr. James Ryder now deceased.
[00:25:39.039] >> He's this Loheed Martin space systems
[00:25:41.120] guy. He was the um uh senior vice
[00:25:44.640] president of the Loheed Martin space and
[00:25:46.640] missiles company which is also the um
[00:25:49.440] space systems company and his dual hat
[00:25:53.279] job was director of the company's
[00:25:56.240] advanced technology center.
[00:25:58.640] >> Did he also work on UFO crash retrieval
[00:26:01.039] initiatives?
[00:26:01.840] >> Well, I don't want to say that um or
[00:26:04.159] confirm or deny that because of the
[00:26:05.760] consequence to his family. One of his
[00:26:08.159] one of his daughters works there. Okay,
[00:26:10.720] got it.
[00:26:11.120] >> It could cause her issues. So,
[00:26:12.799] >> okay.
[00:26:13.200] >> So, I can't get into that particular
[00:26:15.200] detail.
[00:26:16.000] >> Okay. Yeah. No, no, no problem. Through
[00:26:17.760] your I'm so sorry. Through your
[00:26:19.279] investigations, like did you ever
[00:26:21.039] encounter technical intelligence that
[00:26:22.799] you considered high credibility that
[00:26:25.600] seemed like it would have had to have
[00:26:27.279] come from direct communication with NHI
[00:26:30.240] or did it all seem like it could have
[00:26:31.840] been through passive investigation?
[00:26:33.520] >> I couldn't get to that. There's two
[00:26:36.159] things I couldn't get into because I
[00:26:38.240] didn't have access. I didn't have the
[00:26:39.679] right clearances and I wasn't allowed to
[00:26:43.679] let's let's put it this way. There are
[00:26:45.039] people I was working with who knew who
[00:26:46.720] to contact but they wouldn't give me the
[00:26:48.720] contact because they were not allowed to
[00:26:51.360] give out the name and organizational
[00:26:55.440] office or program uh that the individual
[00:26:58.240] worked at. And so they were not allowed
[00:27:00.320] to share that with me. So I couldn't get
[00:27:01.840] into the NHI issue. I couldn't get into
[00:27:04.240] the alien or NHI contact issue. The fact
[00:27:07.120] that Ryder uh
[00:27:09.760] essentially said, "We have no idea how
[00:27:11.520] this works." Does that imply to you they
[00:27:13.840] never had direct they never had the
[00:27:15.760] ability to ask questions of someone with
[00:27:17.840] full knowledge of the technology? Did
[00:27:19.200] did you ever make that connection?
[00:27:22.159] >> No, I think Dave Brush was able to make
[00:27:24.000] that connection. I couldn't. when when
[00:27:26.000] you're on age of disclosure and you are
[00:27:28.559] saying sort of confidently that Roswell
[00:27:31.039] had you know a certain number of beings
[00:27:33.120] one of the beings probably survived is
[00:27:36.240] that I don't know you know I okay
[00:27:38.000] >> that's that's a point of information I
[00:27:40.240] have never gotten in any of my official
[00:27:44.000] government interviews uh or even
[00:27:46.080] unofficial off thereord interviews um is
[00:27:49.360] that any of these aliens ever lived uh
[00:27:51.840] this is coming from a different avenue
[00:27:54.000] and um I don't recall Dave Brush telling
[00:27:56.799] me that that was the case, but I I won't
[00:27:59.440] dismiss it offhand. It's just that it
[00:28:01.120] it's not a piece of data that ever came
[00:28:03.120] my way after 30 years.
[00:28:04.559] >> As part of your official investigations
[00:28:06.960] in OAP,
[00:28:08.240] >> you were making sure that your sources
[00:28:10.799] were completely uncorrelated, right?
[00:28:12.559] They weren't speaking to each other.
[00:28:14.320] >> Oh, yeah. they wouldn't be able to
[00:28:16.559] because they were in compartmentalized
[00:28:18.640] programs and we had uh compartmentalized
[00:28:21.120] clearances ourselves. So we could only
[00:28:22.720] talk to them at a certain level and even
[00:28:24.960] uh we could not get special access
[00:28:27.679] program clearanced because the VP of
[00:28:31.120] Loheed Martin uh there was a VP of TRW
[00:28:36.080] before it got bought out by Northrup
[00:28:38.320] Breming. um these guys uh they may know
[00:28:42.799] about each other but they're not read in
[00:28:45.120] on each other's programs because that's
[00:28:46.720] what compartmentalization meant. It
[00:28:48.159] meant that uh they may know about each
[00:28:51.679] other through the through the portfolio
[00:28:53.760] owner but they're not allowed to
[00:28:55.919] communicate because of that
[00:28:56.880] compartmentalization.
[00:28:58.399] And um uh so where was I going? I think
[00:29:00.880] I lost my train of thought. I'm sorry.
[00:29:02.320] >> Well, tell tell me about George HW Bush
[00:29:04.880] Bush 41.
[00:29:05.760] >> That's separate. That's separate.
[00:29:06.799] >> Yeah. To totally separate. But um yeah,
[00:29:08.799] just wanted to ask you about your
[00:29:10.000] interactions with him because it seemed
[00:29:12.480] like from your accounting he wasn't
[00:29:15.520] fully aware of the UFO crash retrieval
[00:29:17.919] program, but he became aware of it
[00:29:19.440] through some interesting
[00:29:20.559] >> Well, he became uh Gerald Ford's CIA
[00:29:23.919] director.
[00:29:24.559] >> Mhm.
[00:29:24.960] >> So Gerald Ford became president. He
[00:29:26.720] nominated Bush and Bush got confirmed
[00:29:28.799] and he became the CIA director. So he
[00:29:30.720] goes into this for his first briefing as
[00:29:33.039] director of the CIA. The first thing
[00:29:34.720] that came out of this briefer's mouth
[00:29:36.880] was the Hollowman landing in April 1964
[00:29:39.679] at Hollowman uh Air Force Base in New
[00:29:42.080] Mexico. So he started briefing Bush on
[00:29:44.720] that and Bush said, "What are you
[00:29:46.000] talking about? I've never heard of this
[00:29:47.520] before."
[00:29:48.080] >> Describe what this is for the audience.
[00:29:50.159] >> So uh so to make a long story short,
[00:29:53.120] three craft, UAP craft, UFO craft came
[00:29:56.320] in. One of them landed not on the runway
[00:29:58.399] but on the tarmac close to a u a hanger.
[00:30:01.600] The other two took off and uh a gang way
[00:30:04.399] cames down, extended down and down comes
[00:30:07.679] a humanoid looking very tall uh NHI
[00:30:13.279] being uh he looked of Northern European
[00:30:16.960] descent. So he goes and meets with them
[00:30:18.720] and they go into that hanger and that
[00:30:20.159] hanger turns out to be the equivalent
[00:30:22.159] back in those days of a special access
[00:30:24.080] program hanger. It's all secured.
[00:30:25.679] They've got guards around it. That's the
[00:30:27.440] end of the story. So this film was made
[00:30:29.840] of it and this story has circulated at
[00:30:32.559] various times. Uh uh the defense
[00:30:34.799] audiovisisual agency under the command
[00:30:36.799] of two uh retired generals uh I think
[00:30:40.399] Jerry Miller was the name of one of
[00:30:42.240] them. I don't remember the name of the
[00:30:43.679] other. Jacqu Vali talks about them in
[00:30:46.399] his book Revelations I think it is. And
[00:30:49.760] uh he and Alan Heinik were invited to go
[00:30:52.799] to the DAVA and see that film, get
[00:30:56.080] access to the film and see it. So, they
[00:30:57.760] got there and apparently they were not
[00:31:00.159] allowed to see that video because the
[00:31:01.840] one of those two generals said that they
[00:31:04.000] got intercepted or um uh somebody got in
[00:31:09.039] the middle of that and and convinced
[00:31:11.679] them not to allow Ble and Heinik to see
[00:31:15.360] that film. You do have this fact pattern
[00:31:18.080] over decades of you know this sort of
[00:31:21.440] luring in of various you know UFO
[00:31:24.240] researchers and presentation of passage
[00:31:26.880] material which is you know um material
[00:31:29.679] that might have some truth in it but
[00:31:32.000] it's also sprinkled with falsities so
[00:31:33.919] that you know the the researchers can be
[00:31:35.760] discredited. So why now is there this
[00:31:38.880] line in the sand where we should trust
[00:31:41.360] that there is this real UFO legacy crash
[00:31:44.399] retrieval program going on? You know,
[00:31:46.000] I'm kind of thinking maybe it all began
[00:31:48.320] with uh Keller Hernappen Latsky's first
[00:31:52.640] book uh Skinwalkers at the Pentagon. I
[00:31:54.799] think that started it off
[00:31:56.399] >> and then uh Latsky did his first book
[00:31:59.360] and then now second book last year and I
[00:32:01.120] think he's got a third one coming out
[00:32:02.559] and then Lou Alzando's book came out and
[00:32:05.279] so I think this is a crescendo of things
[00:32:07.840] that have come together in uh the right
[00:32:09.760] time, the right place, the right people
[00:32:11.600] and that's why this is happening. And if
[00:32:13.600] you're Stratton and you you're hosting
[00:32:16.080] because he was the guy who ran the UAPF,
[00:32:18.720] the UAP task force and so
[00:32:20.640] >> but he also was working uh with Jim Licy
[00:32:24.880] on the OSAP. He was at DIA at the time.
[00:32:27.840] >> I don't know if you knew that.
[00:32:29.360] >> I didn't know that.
[00:32:30.399] >> He and Lassky are the ones that built
[00:32:32.320] the OSAP program together. So it wasn't
[00:32:34.960] just Jim Lowsky alone. It was Jim and
[00:32:37.279] Jay and their support staff. there's,
[00:32:40.640] you know, the DIA and and contractor
[00:32:42.880] staff that supported them. So Jay was
[00:32:45.279] involved with the OSAP from the very
[00:32:47.120] beginning.
[00:32:47.760] >> And then then we we talk about OAP,
[00:32:50.320] ATIP, these sorts of programs that are,
[00:32:52.240] you know, very small dollar amounts, you
[00:32:54.399] know, visav
[00:32:55.279] >> $22 million, but
[00:32:57.120] >> the inflation adjusted Manhattan
[00:32:59.200] project.
[00:32:59.919] >> Yeah. Harry Reid had an intention on
[00:33:01.840] turning into a turning it into an
[00:33:03.679] Manhattan project. uh he was intend this
[00:33:06.399] was like just to get it started and then
[00:33:08.880] the subsequent fiscal years that would
[00:33:11.600] follow. He was intending this to go like
[00:33:14.000] maybe a decade with worth a billion
[00:33:16.720] dollars maybe $2 billion worth of
[00:33:18.799] programmatics.
[00:33:19.679] >> But you were simultaneously saying there
[00:33:21.440] is an underlying program that is a
[00:33:24.080] legacy reverse engineering program that
[00:33:25.919] is
[00:33:26.240] >> yeah that's sup this this after the fact
[00:33:28.880] >> and that that has to
[00:33:29.840] >> we were trying to get into the crash
[00:33:31.360] retrieval program. our our goal was to
[00:33:34.080] get after it and co-opt it into the OAP
[00:33:37.840] so we could do what the goals of the
[00:33:40.159] OPSAP wanted us to do. And I don't think
[00:33:42.799] that was necessarily to bring it out in
[00:33:44.480] the public domain. That was to keep it
[00:33:45.919] con uh uh classified anyway. But our job
[00:33:49.440] was to get access to it because we were
[00:33:52.320] not convinced that there was any
[00:33:54.159] progress made. And as a matter of fact,
[00:33:55.600] the senior VP at at one of the aerospace
[00:33:58.080] corporations who I had years worth of
[00:34:00.640] interviews with uh before and after he
[00:34:03.519] retired um confirmed that there was no
[00:34:07.279] success in the reverse engineering
[00:34:09.359] program after eight decades and it just
[00:34:11.599] didn't go anywhere. They had modest
[00:34:13.040] success like they understood the
[00:34:14.480] materials that craft were made from.
[00:34:16.720] They figured out how they were
[00:34:18.000] constructed but we couldn't reproduce
[00:34:19.520] any of it. We had no techn um we had no
[00:34:22.639] fabrication or manufacturing technology
[00:34:25.040] at the time of the crash retrieval
[00:34:26.960] programs when they were fully funded and
[00:34:28.399] fully act operating to figure that out.
[00:34:31.359] We could just use our SEM and and
[00:34:33.599] transmission SEM microscopes and other
[00:34:36.000] advanced uh uh um condensed matter state
[00:34:41.359] diagnostic tools and evaluate it, look
[00:34:44.079] at it, look at it down into the into the
[00:34:46.320] you know almost nano scale and we could
[00:34:48.800] see how the materials were assembled but
[00:34:51.359] we could not figure out how to reproduce
[00:34:53.440] that process. If we have made no
[00:34:55.919] progress, why aren't we more open with
[00:34:58.240] the scientific community? That's the
[00:35:00.640] security aspect of it. I I'm I'm not
[00:35:02.960] involved with that policy aspect and I
[00:35:05.200] don't have contact with the people that
[00:35:06.640] make the policy on that. So, I can't
[00:35:08.320] answer that.
[00:35:09.119] >> But you are not that I don't want to. I
[00:35:11.040] just don't know.
[00:35:11.520] >> No, no, no. I get it. And you're But
[00:35:13.040] you're saying confidently that there are
[00:35:15.359] billion dollar budgets involved in the
[00:35:17.359] actual core UFO location.
[00:35:19.599] >> I don't know. I don't know that it's
[00:35:20.640] that much. It was on that order from my
[00:35:24.400] interviews with TRW and Loheed Martin
[00:35:26.960] people. um uh that that was the or order
[00:35:31.440] order of magnitude of the budget
[00:35:33.280] expenditures that were given not on an
[00:35:35.839] annual basis but it was more like maybe
[00:35:37.920] over a u a 5 to 10 year period but then
[00:35:41.760] the budget would go up and down just
[00:35:43.839] like NASA's budget would go up and down
[00:35:45.440] so the budgets would go up and they'd
[00:35:46.960] have they'd be flushed with money get in
[00:35:49.040] get a few more people in get some better
[00:35:51.359] equipment in the lab and then the budget
[00:35:54.320] gets cut and they got to go a bare
[00:35:57.440] minimum operation, people get laid off
[00:35:59.280] and whatever.
[00:36:00.000] >> I wanted to ask you, you know, there's
[00:36:02.079] this sort of not even lore, there is a
[00:36:04.480] document called the Wilson Davis memo.
[00:36:06.560] You get asked about it all the time.
[00:36:08.160] It's uh kind of um apocryphal meeting
[00:36:11.440] that occurred between you and I don't
[00:36:13.760] know Thomas Wilson.
[00:36:14.800] >> UFOs or something.
[00:36:15.920] >> That's right.
[00:36:16.560] >> The last gospel of the Bible. You are
[00:36:18.480] famous for your meticulous note
[00:36:20.160] takingaking and um apparently this
[00:36:23.280] meeting took place in the EG&G parking
[00:36:25.119] lot and it is this you know admiral who
[00:36:27.359] is head of uh J2 joint.
[00:36:29.920] >> He was retired at the time.
[00:36:30.880] >> He was retired at the time back into
[00:36:32.400] active duty for a short period of time
[00:36:34.079] because he had to close out a project at
[00:36:37.280] Area 51 that he was responsible for
[00:36:39.280] under his office at the DIA uh that he
[00:36:42.160] initiated and um it was a complicated
[00:36:45.280] project. He he couldn't tell me because
[00:36:46.800] I didn't have that kind of level of
[00:36:49.040] access or anything like that. So he he
[00:36:51.280] all I know is he said I'm back because
[00:36:53.440] I've got to go back up into that he he
[00:36:56.320] wouldn't say Area 51. I knew what he was
[00:36:58.079] talking about. He was saying he used the
[00:37:00.079] word back in those days the undeclared
[00:37:02.000] or unagnowledged facility near the
[00:37:04.320] Nevada test site and he had to go back
[00:37:06.160] there because they needed to close out a
[00:37:07.839] major project he initiated when he was
[00:37:10.160] active duty uh DIA director and um and
[00:37:13.440] so he was willing to meet with me at the
[00:37:15.119] behest of two guys at the National
[00:37:16.720] Nuclear Security Agency that I
[00:37:18.480] personally knew, John Alexander and I
[00:37:20.160] knew them. Uh we were all members of the
[00:37:22.480] Association of Former Intelligence
[00:37:24.079] Officers. We were forming a Las Vegas
[00:37:26.560] chapter in 2002. So these guys were in
[00:37:30.079] Las Vegas because one of them is the
[00:37:31.760] director of intelligence at the NNSA
[00:37:33.920] site in Vegas uh in Nevada and the other
[00:37:36.800] one was the director of counter
[00:37:38.000] intelligence uh at the NNSA site as
[00:37:41.440] well.
[00:37:41.760] >> And so at least formerly Wilson was
[00:37:43.760] supposed to have all military tech under
[00:37:45.920] his purview, under his scope. And he's
[00:37:48.320] expressing a lot of frustration to you,
[00:37:50.160] right, that he's just met with this
[00:37:52.160] private corporation.
[00:37:53.680] >> This is back in 97.
[00:37:54.800] >> This is in 97,
[00:37:55.920] >> the summer of 97.
[00:37:57.040] >> And he's saying he's saying these
[00:37:58.880] there's this team of people in the
[00:38:01.680] hundreds of people. And they have this
[00:38:03.920] tech this uh material that doesn't seem
[00:38:06.560] to be of human origin and progress is
[00:38:09.119] sort of slow and cumbersome, but that he
[00:38:11.680] for whatever reason wasn't supervising
[00:38:14.160] or overseeing it even though he should
[00:38:15.680] have been. It's it's that he they claim
[00:38:18.720] he didn't have need to know. And that's
[00:38:20.480] possible. Uh their budget came from his
[00:38:23.680] in other words, their their funding, I'm
[00:38:25.520] sorry, their funding came from his
[00:38:28.160] director's budget. The budget he gets as
[00:38:30.320] a director. This was DIA money that he
[00:38:33.200] wasn't aware of. He wasn't aware because
[00:38:35.839] this this is a WOSAP. He hadn't been
[00:38:38.320] read in on it. And so when you deal with
[00:38:42.160] budget line items for these things,
[00:38:44.079] they're just innocuous budget codes that
[00:38:46.640] a comproller general of the defense
[00:38:49.200] department or the military services or
[00:38:50.960] of the US government understands how to
[00:38:53.359] read a budget code and then a a a
[00:38:56.000] standard plain English description is
[00:38:58.480] deliberately meant to be vague so you
[00:39:00.480] can't identify it. That way, if the
[00:39:02.079] budget document gets gets captured by
[00:39:04.560] espionage assets from foreign nations,
[00:39:07.440] foreign adversaries, they won't
[00:39:09.119] understand what the hell it is. So, all
[00:39:10.960] they're going to see is something they
[00:39:12.079] don't they may or may not even know how
[00:39:13.599] to interpret and some innocuous words.
[00:39:16.160] And this could be as as innocuous as
[00:39:19.280] aerospace technology review or uh well,
[00:39:24.400] let's look at the OAP, Advanced
[00:39:25.920] Aerospace Weapon Systems Application
[00:39:27.920] Program. It could be something similar
[00:39:29.599] to that or of that nature. You'll see
[00:39:31.280] something of that nature. It it it
[00:39:33.200] doesn't say UFO, alien, off-world, you
[00:39:36.400] know, it doesn't give you any clue or
[00:39:37.760] indication as to what it is. It's meant
[00:39:40.240] for that for that reason is to keep our
[00:39:42.800] enemies off the track to be able to
[00:39:44.560] figure out what we're spending our money
[00:39:45.760] on and where. Wilson didn't know that
[00:39:47.680] because he didn't have to need to know
[00:39:49.440] just like a president in the United
[00:39:50.720] States really doesn't have need to know
[00:39:52.560] about the crash retrieval program
[00:39:54.079] because mostly they have to know to ask
[00:39:57.040] about it. And when they ask, that's an
[00:39:59.040] order from him that somebody lower down
[00:40:01.119] needs to give him a briefing. But if he
[00:40:02.720] already doesn't know, he doesn't know to
[00:40:04.240] ask.
[00:40:04.720] >> What happened when Jimmy Carter got
[00:40:06.160] briefed?
[00:40:07.440] >> Uh, I don't know what the aftermath is,
[00:40:09.680] but I know that Alonzo McDonald
[00:40:11.280] confirmed to several of us that um and
[00:40:14.560] our group during that era, the OAP era,
[00:40:17.119] that uh he talked to the staff that
[00:40:20.480] attended that briefing. He talked to
[00:40:22.160] Carter and it happened. He even sent us
[00:40:24.480] the June uh I don't remember the date in
[00:40:26.960] June but I've got the document but it's
[00:40:28.720] June 199 1977.
[00:40:31.839] Uh it was an economic meeting in the
[00:40:34.560] National Security Council meeting rooms
[00:40:38.800] but then when it came time for this
[00:40:40.640] classified UAP or UFO program briefing
[00:40:44.000] they moved it to the Oval Office.
[00:40:45.599] >> Do you know what the nature of the
[00:40:46.640] meeting was?
[00:40:47.520] >> Wow. That what we popularly known as
[00:40:49.839] project Aquarius. And so, uh, I know
[00:40:54.240] that Alonzo did not dispute that that
[00:40:57.119] was the code name. It might not have
[00:40:58.640] been, but it might have been, but he
[00:41:00.240] said, "This was it. This is the real
[00:41:01.760] deal. This really happened." And by the
[00:41:03.760] way, I got from from the Carter Library,
[00:41:06.800] the attendee list for that date, and it
[00:41:09.839] shows the name of the regular meeting
[00:41:11.520] for the economics something council
[00:41:13.119] because that's what Alonzo Mcdonald's
[00:41:15.280] job is at the White House. So, um,
[00:41:17.760] >> is that public information? names of the
[00:41:19.760] people that attended were there. The
[00:41:21.680] only thing is two names and
[00:41:22.960] organizations were redacted. Out of all
[00:41:24.800] the lists on two pages, only two got
[00:41:26.960] redacted.
[00:41:27.440] >> Can you send me that?
[00:41:28.560] >> I say again,
[00:41:29.200] >> can you send me that with the
[00:41:30.319] redactions? Obviously, that would be
[00:41:32.079] amazing.
[00:41:32.720] >> Um, so basically, uh, Alonzo confirmed
[00:41:36.160] that it happened. He was then the
[00:41:40.480] principal staff director of the White
[00:41:42.400] House staff. I think that was the title
[00:41:44.000] back then. Before that, he was Jimmy
[00:41:46.640] Carter's special representative for
[00:41:48.880] trade, I think, to the United Nations.
[00:41:51.200] So, he had something like an ambassador,
[00:41:53.920] an ambassador level title.
[00:41:56.079] >> Do you know anything that transpired in
[00:41:58.240] the meeting itself? As far as
[00:41:59.680] >> well, he talked to Carter and and the
[00:42:01.520] and the guys that are list named on that
[00:42:03.520] list and he asked him what went what
[00:42:04.880] transpired. Carter told him and the guys
[00:42:06.720] in who attended told him.
[00:42:09.280] >> And they said, "We learned that the
[00:42:10.640] United States government has been in
[00:42:12.079] contact with aliens, UFO beings." Um
[00:42:16.480] >> Danny Shehan says Carter's head was Oh,
[00:42:19.119] see what he does is when he's in a
[00:42:21.680] moment of stress or something that's
[00:42:23.280] really critical. Um Alonzo told us that
[00:42:26.800] Jimmy or Cart President Carter has a
[00:42:28.880] habit of putting his head down on his
[00:42:31.520] table like this and praying. This is how
[00:42:34.160] he prays. on his desk or at a table at a
[00:42:38.240] briefing table. So that's what he was
[00:42:39.760] doing. He was just praying and he was
[00:42:41.520] praying about the consequence of this
[00:42:44.079] information that he just now learned uh
[00:42:47.200] what it's what it's consequence to
[00:42:50.319] American society is and maybe to the
[00:42:51.920] United States government and our defense
[00:42:53.440] of our country against an unknown
[00:42:56.160] potential hostile we don't know force
[00:42:58.560] that we don't have a technology to
[00:43:01.119] overwhelm. Did he learn about Have we
[00:43:03.440] had treaties or agreements with any of
[00:43:05.760] these beings?
[00:43:06.400] >> That I never heard about. No, that never
[00:43:08.079] came up.
[00:43:08.720] >> Okay.
[00:43:09.119] >> I I don't recall. I've seen the Aquarius
[00:43:11.119] document. Alonzo said it was real.
[00:43:12.960] People have been saying for years that
[00:43:14.640] that was fabricated by Bill Moore uh and
[00:43:18.000] Rick Dodie and it turns out no, Alonzo
[00:43:20.319] said those guys had nothing to do with
[00:43:22.960] anything. That document uh and by the
[00:43:25.520] way, I don't think you can find that
[00:43:26.640] document on the internet unless you use
[00:43:27.920] the wayback machine all now nowadays. It
[00:43:30.480] used to be available uh as late as 2010
[00:43:34.720] or 11 and then it just gone.
[00:43:37.359] >> So um Elono read every word of the
[00:43:40.319] Aquarius briefing and he said, "Oh yeah,
[00:43:42.079] that's what these guys told me that they
[00:43:44.319] did." They the guys of the in the
[00:43:46.240] briefing got together afterwards, went
[00:43:48.640] to a motel and they basically wrote down
[00:43:52.720] from memory uh what they recalled about
[00:43:56.079] the briefing because they each got
[00:43:57.280] briefing documents. When the briefing is
[00:43:59.280] orally given, they're reading through
[00:44:00.480] it. Then when the briefing is over, they
[00:44:01.839] got to give the document back to the CIA
[00:44:03.680] guy at the door that came the documents
[00:44:05.440] because they're going to be destroyed.
[00:44:06.800] >> Where where's what they wrote down from
[00:44:08.400] memory. Where where are those documents?
[00:44:10.400] >> Well, that's the thing. Those are gone.
[00:44:12.000] Um, I'll get to that. So, uh, how do you
[00:44:14.880] know they're gone?
[00:44:15.280] >> The White House gets a copy, permanent
[00:44:17.040] copy for their records. So, that's in a
[00:44:19.119] really heavily classified part of the
[00:44:20.560] Carter Library, I believe, maybe. And
[00:44:22.800] then the, uh, CIA keeps a copy because
[00:44:25.200] that's their program. Okay. So these
[00:44:28.560] guys had eight 8 by 14 inch, you know,
[00:44:31.680] legal pads and they all meet up in a
[00:44:33.760] hotel um and they all start downpouring
[00:44:37.359] from memory what they think they what
[00:44:40.480] they recall of the briefing document. So
[00:44:42.880] they they did a round robin. So
[00:44:44.960] everybody passes their document to the
[00:44:47.040] next guy, so forth and so on all the way
[00:44:48.960] around. And so they're going to crossch
[00:44:50.880] checkck what they remember against the
[00:44:53.359] other guy's notes. And they're going to
[00:44:56.079] keep doing this until they find, you
[00:44:57.760] know, they're going to disagree on what
[00:44:58.960] was said on this little point of this
[00:45:01.280] language and this terminology and
[00:45:02.800] whatnot. They're going to keep doing
[00:45:04.160] that until they finally converge on a
[00:45:05.920] document that that strongly
[00:45:09.520] resembles the briefing document that
[00:45:11.839] they all read and they all agree on it
[00:45:13.280] and they said, "Yeah, this is more close
[00:45:15.920] to what we read and we collectively, you
[00:45:19.359] know, came to this [clears throat]
[00:45:20.560] convergent final version." So, somebody
[00:45:23.920] typed that up on a on a old-fashioned
[00:45:27.520] uh electrothermal um printer, and that's
[00:45:30.720] what you see in the photographs that
[00:45:33.119] Bill Moore took of that document.
[00:45:35.119] >> Okay.
[00:45:35.440] >> And it was said that the senior falcon,
[00:45:37.440] senior falcon was somebody else. I know
[00:45:39.440] his name. I just can't think of it, but
[00:45:41.119] it's in one of my uh one of my
[00:45:44.400] investigation.
[00:45:45.280] >> Why do all these guys have bird names?
[00:45:48.960] >> I don't know. That's just the choice of
[00:45:51.280] an admiral at the DIA. Okay. That a
[00:45:53.760] nothing to do with the aviary. Aviary is
[00:45:55.839] more in the 1990s conspiracy era or
[00:45:58.800] maybe the late 80s even or that.
[00:46:01.200] >> No, this is
[00:46:02.800] >> senior falcon was a DIA uh officer who
[00:46:07.280] was sent to communicate with Jamie
[00:46:09.520] Shandere and Bill Moore. He's the one
[00:46:11.119] that passed undeveloped 35mm film of the
[00:46:14.160] so-called MJ12 documents. These are the
[00:46:16.720] first generation documents that were
[00:46:18.400] created by James Jesus Angleton's chop
[00:46:21.520] shop, his his mole hunting document
[00:46:24.880] production factory. So that's the
[00:46:28.720] connection there is that these documents
[00:46:31.760] came from the uh defense intelligence
[00:46:33.760] agency. It was the uh director of human
[00:46:37.200] intelligence collection
[00:46:39.040] >> and Admiral uh EA Burkhalder Edward
[00:46:42.319] Burkhalder was the director and Air
[00:46:46.240] Force Colonel Roy Joners was his chief
[00:46:48.560] of staff. So those documents came out of
[00:46:50.960] there. Well this whole thing about the
[00:46:52.640] films the the undeveloped roles of 35mm
[00:46:56.000] film that would go to Bill Moore and
[00:46:58.560] Jamie Shandur that was what that was
[00:47:00.720] about. Rick Dodie was considered to be
[00:47:03.440] the junior falcon, but he was not a
[00:47:05.680] legitimate mediator of information from
[00:47:09.040] the DIA to Bill Moore. He was more
[00:47:12.480] coming out of AFOSI as a counter
[00:47:14.560] intelligence agent trying to throw him
[00:47:16.560] off the track.
[00:47:17.520] >> Let's just keep it high level, I guess.
[00:47:19.200] So, you have you have Roswell in 47. You
[00:47:23.280] have magenta before that in Italy, but
[00:47:25.839] then this this craft crashes there and
[00:47:28.480] that gets transferred to US possession.
[00:47:31.599] >> And then how many other crashes between
[00:47:34.319] the 30s and today?
[00:47:36.480] >> Um I can't give you the official number
[00:47:38.640] because I know that number on a
[00:47:40.880] classified basis. I could say it's less
[00:47:42.720] than 40.
[00:47:43.520] >> Okay. Less than 40. I think Halputo off
[00:47:45.760] said on the Joe Rogan Experience
[00:47:48.400] somewhere like we have between 10 and 15
[00:47:51.760] crash crafts in our possession.
[00:47:53.920] >> Said 15. I think he said more than 10,
[00:47:55.599] but that's still
[00:47:56.400] >> more than 10. Okay, got it.
[00:47:57.920] >> More than 10. I'll just say less than
[00:47:59.359] 40.
[00:48:00.319] >> Okay. Would you describe the majority as
[00:48:02.720] wreckage or intact?
[00:48:04.720] >> Uh, mix.
[00:48:06.640] >> Even mix. Okay. Okay.
[00:48:08.640] >> And not all of them involve recovery of
[00:48:11.520] N and HI bodies.
[00:48:13.520] >> Dr. Davis. Uh,
[00:48:15.839] what gives you confidence that we
[00:48:17.599] haven't made progress with any of this
[00:48:19.440] material?
[00:48:20.079] >> Uh, I can't speak
[00:48:23.040] of my confidence level after
[00:48:27.280] my senior VP source died.
[00:48:31.760] Uh, because before then, I'm highly
[00:48:34.160] confident because he was still connected
[00:48:36.000] in. Uh, he was he was still on active
[00:48:39.040] duty work up until he got retired in the
[00:48:41.760] early 2010s. Then he's retired after
[00:48:44.000] that. So he's sharing with me the
[00:48:45.760] information that he had all the way up
[00:48:47.359] until he retired. And so I'm highly
[00:48:50.400] confident 100% level that what he told
[00:48:53.440] me is right. And a matter of fact, he
[00:48:55.599] arranged for me to meet one of his
[00:48:57.359] co-workers on the crash retrieval
[00:48:59.040] program back in the 70s and 80s.
[00:49:00.720] >> Did you meet them?
[00:49:01.680] >> Oh, yeah. It was a woman. I met her. I
[00:49:03.680] we he my source, his wife, uh took me to
[00:49:07.839] her home, picked her up. We went into
[00:49:09.599] San Jose to have dinner at a German
[00:49:11.040] restaurant. How many of those people
[00:49:13.200] crash retrieval program people have you
[00:49:15.119] met total?
[00:49:17.520] >> Okay. So I think it's five total. Okay.
[00:49:20.559] >> Five total at that one at that
[00:49:22.240] particular company.
[00:49:23.200] >> How many have you met total in your
[00:49:24.960] life?
[00:49:25.280] >> It was just those two from that company
[00:49:27.200] and one from TRW.
[00:49:29.200] >> Okay. Wow. Did you meet many of the 40
[00:49:32.880] uh of Dave Brush's firsthand witnesses?
[00:49:35.280] >> Say again.
[00:49:35.920] >> Did you meet many of the 40 of
[00:49:37.760] >> I didn't even know who they are really.
[00:49:39.119] He never shared that with me.
[00:49:40.240] >> I see that. I have a rough guess, but
[00:49:42.000] believe me, don't confuse that 40
[00:49:44.480] >> Yeah.
[00:49:45.040] >> with the 40 core people on the task
[00:49:47.760] force on the UAP task force. They're
[00:49:49.520] they're not
[00:49:50.160] >> totally different. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:49:50.960] >> Yeah. They're totally different. There's
[00:49:52.160] no overlap.
[00:49:52.960] >> No, that that that makes I would hope
[00:49:54.640] that there's an overlap.
[00:49:55.760] >> Yeah. I don't think Dave was allowed to
[00:49:57.040] tell me the names of those people or
[00:49:58.559] their organizations and where they're
[00:49:59.920] located because that was woo level.
[00:50:02.720] >> Yeah. Final question before I want to
[00:50:04.720] get into the the second section of this
[00:50:06.480] discussion uh where I want you to drive
[00:50:08.480] mostly, but um uh how did Admiral Thomas
[00:50:12.079] Wilson react uh when you when you met
[00:50:14.800] him in 1997 and and why I guess why did
[00:50:18.000] people direct him to you and then uh
[00:50:21.119] what transpired in the in the meeting?
[00:50:22.800] >> I can't get into that because you can't
[00:50:24.319] confirm or deny that we met for the
[00:50:26.160] security reasons. Okay.
[00:50:27.599] >> There are legal issues still involved
[00:50:29.040] that are active. So, um, uh, because I
[00:50:32.400] can't reveal that in public. That wasn't
[00:50:34.319] meant for public,
[00:50:35.839] >> uh, consumption and that was released
[00:50:38.400] from Mitchell's estate.
[00:50:39.680] >> Mhm.
[00:50:40.079] >> And, um, that was supposed to be
[00:50:42.319] destroyed one year after Mitchell got a
[00:50:44.319] copy of it as a courtesy from from who
[00:50:47.200] generated it. And uh unfortunate that
[00:50:50.240] his kids were sloppy and um and I guess
[00:50:54.160] Ed was sloppy in that he didn't give any
[00:50:55.839] instructions on what to do with that
[00:50:57.119] document if if he should die, but he was
[00:50:59.440] supposed to destroy that as far as I
[00:51:00.880] understand. I um I would be remiss if I
[00:51:03.280] didn't. I this can be cut if it's not
[00:51:05.520] okay to air, but uh during our
[00:51:07.920] discussion in San Francisco, you did uh
[00:51:10.800] confirm that you wrote the Wilson Davis
[00:51:12.720] notes by way of a conversation about
[00:51:14.640] >> I I can confirm
[00:51:15.599] >> seeking legal legal counsel.
[00:51:16.800] >> Yeah, they're real. They're legit.
[00:51:18.319] They're 100% accurate. Yeah.
[00:51:19.920] >> Okay. Thank you.
[00:51:20.720] >> But that's the typewritten version. Um
[00:51:23.119] that there's a handwritten version, but
[00:51:25.040] that's all I could say about it. Um uh
[00:51:27.920] so
[00:51:28.400] >> have you have you ever seen a UFO?
[00:51:30.880] >> Oh, yeah. My wife and I did in Tucson,
[00:51:33.040] Arizona. Broad daylight. A boomerang
[00:51:34.880] shaped craft below traffic pattern
[00:51:36.640] altitude. Uh looked
[00:51:40.319] kind of like halfway boomer boomerang
[00:51:42.480] halfway heel boot heel type shape, but
[00:51:44.880] it was close. Yeah. Have you ever seen a
[00:51:46.480] a craft in a hanger?
[00:51:48.079] >> No.
[00:51:49.200] >> I wish. I wanted to.
[00:51:50.640] >> Have you ever seen any oneofone
[00:51:52.400] material? So idiosyncratic, never seen
[00:51:54.960] before material.
[00:51:55.680] >> No.
[00:51:56.480] >> Okay.
[00:51:56.880] >> Yeah. And the arts parts don't qualify.
[00:51:58.720] >> Okay.
[00:51:59.119] >> We don't know what the providence of
[00:52:00.640] that is. and Hal and I were involved in
[00:52:02.800] the um TTS uh meeting at the Pentagon
[00:52:05.920] conference room in August of 2024
[00:52:11.440] where we read the full 90page ORL
[00:52:15.680] that's the office uh Oakidge National
[00:52:17.920] Laboratory uh there 90page materials
[00:52:20.640] analysis report on the arts parts and
[00:52:23.200] there was nothing there there was no
[00:52:25.119] there there's a little bit of am
[00:52:27.359] ambiguity because here's the ambiguity
[00:52:30.079] the way that material material was
[00:52:31.520] assembled is not consistent with what we
[00:52:34.000] were doing in the 1940s era when
[00:52:37.440] magnesium became a major top uh a major
[00:52:41.200] alloy of interest for the aerospace
[00:52:43.359] community. Um and so uh that's the
[00:52:46.559] ambiguity but the isotope ratios or the
[00:52:48.640] materials it contains are earth they're
[00:52:50.720] manufactured. Part of what I love about
[00:52:52.400] you is you are a walking compendium of
[00:52:55.200] all these exotic uh you know
[00:52:57.680] experiments, physics experiments and
[00:52:59.280] whenever you know anybody gets uh some
[00:53:01.760] sort of anomalous result uh uh you are a
[00:53:04.960] great evaluator of that and you've
[00:53:07.040] written a book that I will uh I'll plug
[00:53:09.200] here called uh Frontiers of Propulsion
[00:53:12.160] Science where you've comprehensively
[00:53:14.000] reviewed a lot of these sort of more
[00:53:15.599] exotic you know propellantless
[00:53:17.280] propulsion sort of you know uh
[00:53:19.119] modalities. Have you ever seen uh an
[00:53:22.160] exotic experimental result or an
[00:53:24.079] experimental result that's anomalous
[00:53:25.760] rather that um you believe is is real
[00:53:29.920] and replic replicable and and and not
[00:53:32.720] >> No, I wish I did. I haven't
[00:53:35.040] >> nothing that's ever you know breaks the
[00:53:36.640] sort of standard model or you know any
[00:53:38.559] anything?
[00:53:38.880] >> No, certainly not.
[00:53:39.760] >> Okay. I just think that the standard
[00:53:41.440] model has done an outstanding job
[00:53:43.200] through the avenue of condensed matter
[00:53:44.800] theory to come up with some pretty
[00:53:46.160] exotic condensed matter states which
[00:53:48.559] have been uh you know theoretical
[00:53:51.440] curiosities decades ago and now we've
[00:53:53.760] advanced our laboratory technology and
[00:53:55.680] condensed matter physics so well that
[00:53:58.000] they're discovered they're being
[00:53:59.280] discovered right now. So they're really
[00:54:01.920] wonderful wonderful exotic states
[00:54:04.559] insulator topological insulators
[00:54:06.319] metamaterials uh uh all kinds of other
[00:54:08.960] stuff like majorana particles that are
[00:54:11.599] supposed to be uh I think they're
[00:54:13.440] massless aren't they Eric
[00:54:15.599] >> that if you have a
[00:54:16.480] >> the majorana particles
[00:54:17.839] >> if you have a a myana mass mechanism
[00:54:20.559] different from a dac mech uh mass
[00:54:23.200] mechanism that's only possible if a
[00:54:25.040] particle is its own antiparticle. Yeah,
[00:54:27.040] that's right. Correct. That's right. But
[00:54:28.640] they these are not free particles. These
[00:54:30.800] are quasi particles because they are uh
[00:54:34.160] rep they are they're quasi particles
[00:54:36.800] because they're created by the
[00:54:37.920] collective action of the electrons in
[00:54:39.440] the semiconductor or condensed matter
[00:54:41.359] system.
[00:54:42.079] >> I want to seed the floor uh to my former
[00:54:44.960] colleague Eric Weinstein. Uh I
[00:54:47.760] appreciate you indulging all my crazy
[00:54:49.440] UFO questions. Just wanted to kind of
[00:54:51.680] establish a ground truth around Eric
[00:54:54.160] Davis's past experience. Uh, one of my
[00:54:57.920] favorite comments on our last discussion
[00:54:59.599] with Hal Putoff was now I know what a
[00:55:02.160] dog feels like when it watches TV. And
[00:55:05.040] so [laughter]
[00:55:05.760] if uh, you know, this is not for the
[00:55:07.359] faint of mind, just so you're aware
[00:55:09.200] from, you know, for the audience, uh,
[00:55:11.040] this will be a really fun discussion,
[00:55:12.559] but I, you know, I want to get into what
[00:55:14.240] we touched on, which is why are there no
[00:55:16.800] theoretical physicists on the program
[00:55:18.960] and what do you think is going on? H how
[00:55:22.559] do you think maybe what we've talked
[00:55:25.040] about with the observables of UFOs might
[00:55:28.480] dovetail with some of your theories?
[00:55:31.680] >> Okay. Well, I I don't even know how to
[00:55:34.000] begin this. I mean, look, the first
[00:55:35.599] thing is is that in general, I can
[00:55:38.960] produce too many explanations through a
[00:55:41.760] creative, sometimes undisiplined mind
[00:55:44.319] for a certain set of facts. And this is
[00:55:47.520] one of the only times and perhaps the
[00:55:48.960] only time I've ever seen a situation
[00:55:50.960] where I cannot come up with a single
[00:55:52.559] theory of what's going on that explains
[00:55:55.520] all of the bizarre behavior in UFO UAP
[00:55:59.280] land. Too many people who seem
[00:56:02.240] relatively reasonable with nearly idic
[00:56:04.640] memories talking about particular names,
[00:56:06.720] dates.
[00:56:08.400] It is impossible to me that we have a
[00:56:10.559] theater company that has figured out how
[00:56:12.559] to create this space opera. And on the
[00:56:15.839] other hand, the lack of anything
[00:56:18.400] tangible.
[00:56:20.000] Um I don't believe in a something this
[00:56:23.359] this old, this long, this many events
[00:56:26.079] that we have absolutely nothing uh to go
[00:56:29.599] on. So let me just say from the
[00:56:31.359] beginning that this is the odd
[00:56:33.200] situation. One of the reasons nobody
[00:56:35.200] from my world wants to get involved with
[00:56:37.040] it is that
[00:56:39.760] um it just makes you look foolish from
[00:56:41.599] the point of view of a scientist.
[00:56:43.599] >> Well, because involved unless they're
[00:56:45.920] working on a contract
[00:56:47.520] >> well, but then they get a clearance.
[00:56:50.400] >> Sky is a big place
[00:56:52.240] >> and
[00:56:53.520] >> I disagree.
[00:56:54.559] >> You said that you've
[00:56:56.240] >> one of the top government scientists. I
[00:56:58.319] can't think of his name. You would know
[00:56:59.599] who it is. Uh
[00:57:02.319] gosh, he was a physicist and I just Hal
[00:57:05.119] put off knew him and um he had all he
[00:57:07.760] had a lot of clearances into the
[00:57:09.040] Manhattan project, the post Manhattan
[00:57:10.799] project, uh a lot of other high
[00:57:13.440] technology projects throughout areas of
[00:57:15.440] the DoD. Um uh and and so he was a
[00:57:22.319] academician and he had clearances. A
[00:57:25.119] colleague of mine up at Baylor also has
[00:57:27.520] uh DoD clearance classification
[00:57:29.520] classifications and he's working on
[00:57:31.200] classified stuff that you're not
[00:57:32.400] familiar with. You've never heard of.
[00:57:33.440] You won't get access to it. If you have
[00:57:35.440] a contract
[00:57:36.960] >> that requires a clearance, you will get
[00:57:39.200] access to something you don't know about
[00:57:40.880] in the public.
[00:57:41.839] >> Okay. I I understand that there's a lot
[00:57:43.680] of stuff that's classified. We have an
[00:57:45.200] entire system of national labs. There's
[00:57:48.000] no question about that. I'm talking I'm
[00:57:49.760] talking about
[00:57:52.000] like at the level of ground truth right
[00:57:54.720] our our two primary theories are the
[00:57:56.720] standard model and general relativity
[00:57:59.200] both of them are relevant here as
[00:58:02.400] limitations
[00:58:03.920] on what we can understand of the world
[00:58:06.480] we see and if somebody has access to
[00:58:08.400] theories beyond those two uh and they
[00:58:12.079] predicate manufacturing on it and then
[00:58:13.920] we get the gifts of that manufacturing
[00:58:15.760] just assuming that that story is correct
[00:58:18.960] um we should be seeing some very weird
[00:58:20.880] stuff that is not explicable as if
[00:58:23.839] Newton was looking at
[00:58:26.480] Lorent contraction. You would say, "What
[00:58:28.559] the heck is that?" And
[00:58:32.160] um so I'm just going to begin with
[00:58:34.559] things that make me hugely
[00:58:36.240] uncomfortable. And again, it's not as a
[00:58:38.799] a dig or it's like I just can't figure
[00:58:40.559] this out. So, we toss off these humanoid
[00:58:43.920] aliens,
[00:58:45.599] like aliens that are tetropods,
[00:58:47.520] literally tetropod body plans. We have
[00:58:51.520] arachnids, we have insects, we have
[00:58:54.160] sephopods, we have all sorts of
[00:58:56.400] intelligent life that doesn't follow a
[00:58:58.960] tetropod
[00:59:00.480] body plan. The odd of a humanoid
[00:59:04.640] evolving through convergent evolution
[00:59:07.520] somewhere else
[00:59:09.599] of a humanoid I is vanishingly small
[00:59:13.760] >> but it's not zero.
[00:59:16.559] >> Yeah, but it's preposterous.
[00:59:18.559] >> But Aam's razor wouldn't be that these
[00:59:20.799] beings would be from elsewhere. They
[00:59:22.319] would be that they would be derivative
[00:59:23.599] of humans
[00:59:24.720] >> or or look you you can tell me some
[00:59:27.200] other story like these things aren't
[00:59:29.280] even really the beings that that the
[00:59:31.200] real beings have constructed these
[00:59:32.799] things to interact with us not to not to
[00:59:35.440] make us uncomfortable. Okay, I
[00:59:37.040] understand that.
[00:59:37.440] >> Do you believe that?
[00:59:39.040] >> That's possible.
[00:59:40.079] >> Okay.
[00:59:40.640] >> All right. But any biologist hearing
[00:59:43.119] this story is just going to have the
[00:59:45.760] same reaction like tetropods. This
[00:59:48.960] sounds like it came out of a, you know,
[00:59:51.280] Buck Rogers thing where you had to, it
[00:59:54.240] was too high too too hard to hire an
[00:59:57.040] actor to behave as if they had a
[00:59:59.040] completely different body plan. So all
[01:00:01.119] all alien aliens from the golden age of
[01:00:03.599] cinema or silent movies, whatever, were
[01:00:05.599] going to be tetropods if they were
[01:00:06.799] playing an alien. [gasps] So that first
[01:00:09.040] of all really bugs me is that I don't
[01:00:11.680] want to hear about that with no mention
[01:00:16.160] of it is stunning that there are two
[01:00:18.880] eyes a mouth a head and it walks the
[01:00:23.280] same way we do. I mean even if you look
[01:00:24.960] at like a I don't know a camel's legs
[01:00:28.640] you know that where we have a knee it
[01:00:30.480] has an ankle or you know something like
[01:00:32.079] that. Mhm.
[01:00:33.040] >> So,
[01:00:35.040] so that's that's the first part and
[01:00:36.480] that's just the biological.
[01:00:38.559] The next part is um I I was very
[01:00:43.119] interested looking through some of your
[01:00:44.559] physics papers. You seem to live in a
[01:00:47.839] world that I really honestly didn't know
[01:00:50.880] existed. So, I learned something from
[01:00:53.440] that. It's sort of like national
[01:00:55.359] security physics.
[01:00:58.400] >> National security physics.
[01:00:59.680] >> Yeah. It's not like a real thing, but if
[01:01:01.520] I look at a lot of your papers, they're
[01:01:03.520] focused on
[01:01:07.520] bizarre,
[01:01:09.040] how would I put it? Bizarre physics that
[01:01:11.520] accepts the standard model in general
[01:01:13.359] relativity is ground truth predicated on
[01:01:16.640] some sort of engineering desire. No, I'm
[01:01:20.160] just looking at uh for my per my book uh
[01:01:22.960] I was looking at the physics of what's
[01:01:24.559] possible with anti-gravity,
[01:01:27.040] gravitational wave propulsion or rockets
[01:01:29.599] within what? Within what framework?
[01:01:31.440] >> Say again.
[01:01:32.559] >> Within GR. Yeah.
[01:01:34.079] >> So GR with or without positivity
[01:01:36.400] constraints or how are you
[01:01:38.720] >> how are you um
[01:01:41.680] we'll slow it down. First of all, I
[01:01:44.160] don't understand if these things are
[01:01:45.920] here from out of town. If they're not
[01:01:48.559] co-resident with us here on Earth,
[01:01:52.160] they're not here using the standard
[01:01:54.480] model in general relativity. I don't
[01:01:56.319] think I mean, it's not impossible, but
[01:01:59.359] >> but I'm not doing UFO physics. I'm doing
[01:02:01.440] propulsion physics for interstellar
[01:02:02.960] flight. This I'm not looking at this
[01:02:04.640] from a UFO perspective. I'm doing this
[01:02:06.480] as part of another.
[01:02:07.280] >> So, maybe you can make this. So, you're
[01:02:10.559] holes, things like that.
[01:02:12.000] >> Okay.
[01:02:13.760] Yeah, I'm not doing this because of
[01:02:15.359] UFOs. I'm just saying, hey,
[01:02:18.880] >> if this is valid to any degree and we
[01:02:22.480] could expect maybe or pray maybe that in
[01:02:25.760] the future we can engineer these things.
[01:02:27.520] This could be how UFOs move because
[01:02:30.240] we're trying to develop this physics for
[01:02:33.280] exploitation as a technology for future
[01:02:35.359] interstellar and interstellar missions.
[01:02:36.880] So this is hugely important for me just
[01:02:39.520] to understand the context. If I
[01:02:41.280] understand and please correct me if I'm
[01:02:43.280] wrong because I don't want to push
[01:02:44.480] anything that isn't true. I think what
[01:02:46.480] you're saying is assume a proof of
[01:02:48.960] concept that something can voyage at an
[01:02:52.240] interstellar level with intention. Okay.
[01:02:55.463] [gasps] Assuming that one piece of
[01:02:57.200] information,
[01:03:00.000] attempt to figure out how that could be
[01:03:02.400] done as best you can with the tools we
[01:03:05.359] have.
[01:03:06.880] Yes. Okay.
[01:03:09.200] So then you and I completely polarize I
[01:03:12.240] think and again I could be wrong on one
[01:03:14.559] one issue. I would not be wasting my
[01:03:17.760] time and again that's judgmental. I
[01:03:20.079] would feel that I was wasting my time if
[01:03:22.160] I was trying to do this with GR with
[01:03:24.880] general relativity.
[01:03:26.480] >> Okay.
[01:03:26.799] >> I might have an alcoiri warp drive but
[01:03:28.880] I'd think how much energy do I need to
[01:03:30.799] warp space in this particular way right?
[01:03:33.920] or well I could fall into a spinning
[01:03:36.079] black hole and you know maybe I could
[01:03:38.880] try to figure how this would be
[01:03:40.640] traversible and non-c catastrophic
[01:03:43.280] and I could imagine using all of the
[01:03:45.680] exotica of GR well I'll just I'll bet
[01:03:49.839] everything on time dilation
[01:03:52.240] and it'll be really expensive to go
[01:03:53.920] there and home but I can still get there
[01:03:56.720] >> yes
[01:03:57.280] >> using uh Laurent uh conversion factors
[01:04:03.039] none of that has any appeal to me.
[01:04:05.119] Clearly, it's had great a great appeal
[01:04:06.799] to you. It's just fine. We're we can
[01:04:08.960] pull we can polarize on that.
[01:04:11.760] Surely you don't think
[01:04:15.599] it's m isn't it much more plausible that
[01:04:18.319] if craft were true and we accept that as
[01:04:20.799] our premise that it's basically proof
[01:04:23.599] that GR isn't the last world, that
[01:04:25.680] general relativity is a constricting
[01:04:28.079] framework and that there's something
[01:04:29.440] beyond it that has general relativity as
[01:04:31.359] an effective theory. I agree with that.
[01:04:33.520] >> And they're using that.
[01:04:34.880] >> I agree with that.
[01:04:35.920] >> Okay. So, that makes this mysterious,
[01:04:38.559] which is why are you using GR
[01:04:41.119] >> because that's the only tool I have that
[01:04:42.960] I know of from my graduate education and
[01:04:46.160] my research interest. And so, I don't I
[01:04:49.119] I don't have the liberty to I'm not a
[01:04:52.319] pure theoretical physicist. I'm more of
[01:04:54.000] like one foot theory, one foot applied.
[01:04:56.400] >> Okay. So, let's let's take that.
[01:05:00.240] If I had access to anything that
[01:05:03.359] seemingly was breaking GR, general
[01:05:05.839] relativity, [sighs and gasps]
[01:05:08.720] I'd be dreaming about things related to
[01:05:11.839] general relativity because we know that
[01:05:13.760] we don't like general relativity at a
[01:05:15.520] deep level. It's got a terrible variable
[01:05:18.160] in it which is called the metric
[01:05:20.160] >> where it's easy to fall into things that
[01:05:22.079] are not metrics from the space of
[01:05:23.680] metrics. things it just doesn't behave
[01:05:26.799] well in terms of quantization. We know
[01:05:29.359] that we have got these two kinks in
[01:05:32.160] spaceime called the initial singularity
[01:05:34.160] which we associate with the big bang and
[01:05:36.400] the Schwarz or black hole singularity
[01:05:38.400] that we associate with collapsed stars.
[01:05:40.640] >> Yeah.
[01:05:41.680] >> And
[01:05:44.880] I don't like GR.
[01:05:47.039] I mean, I love it from the point of view
[01:05:48.640] of of Einstein having pulled it off, but
[01:05:50.799] it's a 110 years past its sell by date.
[01:05:54.960] And why
[01:05:58.559] why are you not tweaking it?
[01:06:01.359] >> I'm don't have intuition on how I could
[01:06:04.880] twe tweak it.
[01:06:06.000] >> Okay. So,
[01:06:06.480] >> and I would rather somebody smarter than
[01:06:08.799] me do that. [laughter]
[01:06:11.520] I would like to have somebody who tweaks
[01:06:13.359] it and I could look at it and say, "Hey,
[01:06:16.400] it either does or does not predict a
[01:06:19.440] potential propulsion mode that could get
[01:06:22.720] us where we want to go across
[01:06:24.880] interstellar distances without the
[01:06:26.559] consequence of G over C to the 4th.
[01:06:30.720] So
[01:06:34.400] how do I interpret
[01:06:40.400] There are a lot of people who are
[01:06:41.520] interested in gravity.
[01:06:43.760] >> Yeah.
[01:06:44.079] >> And there none of them on this program.
[01:06:46.960] >> Say that again. Other people are
[01:06:48.640] interested in
[01:06:49.440] >> Let me start from a different place.
[01:06:50.960] There's this 1971
[01:06:53.839] Australian document that I became aware
[01:06:55.920] of where the Australian intelligence
[01:06:58.640] officer Harry do you remember
[01:07:00.400] >> Harry Turner who was head of their
[01:07:01.599] nuclear division
[01:07:03.520] >> starts writing down
[01:07:06.079] here's what we surmise about our friends
[01:07:07.920] the Yanks and their efforts in this area
[01:07:12.319] >> okay
[01:07:12.799] >> and he names I don't know six
[01:07:15.119] universities uh in the Institute for
[01:07:17.280] Advanced Study MIT Purdue Indiana.
[01:07:21.520] Um I forget what what the complete list
[01:07:23.920] is. And he names like Arnowit Deser.
[01:07:26.880] >> Oh yeah.
[01:07:27.440] >> Uh Dyson, Oenheimer.
[01:07:30.319] And it sounds like the Manhattan Project
[01:07:32.319] for Gravity.
[01:07:33.359] >> Okay.
[01:07:35.119] >> And
[01:07:37.200] this is broadly consistent with this
[01:07:39.599] story that I've been uh I think I first
[01:07:43.359] did it on on Rogan in episode 1945,
[01:07:46.480] which they gave me the Trinity date. I
[01:07:48.640] love that.
[01:07:49.920] um
[01:07:51.520] which is that we have this bizarre thing
[01:07:53.599] called the golden age of general
[01:07:55.119] relativity. Yeah. which makes absolutely
[01:07:57.119] no sense.
[01:07:59.119] And it's a story about two people uh
[01:08:03.039] Agnu Bainson and Roger Babson who appear
[01:08:06.480] to be in the language of the
[01:08:07.839] intelligent. Again, I'm not a guy who
[01:08:09.599] thinks he's seen a bunch of Jason Bourne
[01:08:11.599] movies so he can talk the lingo, but
[01:08:13.599] they appear to be what I've been told
[01:08:15.280] are cutouts. And they're both fitted
[01:08:17.839] with stories, it seems, about why they
[01:08:20.080] need to contribute in the ant to
[01:08:21.839] anti-gravity.
[01:08:24.159] And they find two physicists to work
[01:08:26.159] through, one named Bryce Dwit. So Agnu
[01:08:28.319] Baineson and John Wheeler find Bryce Dit
[01:08:31.440] and set him up at the University of
[01:08:33.040] North Carolina Chapel Hill at the
[01:08:34.640] Institute of Field Physics.
[01:08:36.080] >> Right. And then the other one, Roger
[01:08:38.799] Babson, uh, out of New Boston, New
[01:08:41.759] Hampshire,
[01:08:43.359] uh, seems to be somehow linked up with a
[01:08:46.400] guy named Lewis Whitten, who's a
[01:08:47.920] gravitational physicist out of John's
[01:08:50.560] Hopkins for his PhD
[01:08:53.359] and found something that sounds like
[01:08:55.279] Bell Labs that nobody's ever heard of
[01:08:58.400] called the Research Institute of
[01:08:59.920] Advanced Study or RA
[01:09:02.719] and it has Sheldon Glashau within it. It
[01:09:05.199] has Rudolph Colman within it. It has
[01:09:07.759] Solomon left the topologist comes out of
[01:09:11.040] retirement
[01:09:12.799] to work inside of the Martin. And we
[01:09:15.679] always talk about Lockheed, but we don't
[01:09:17.279] talk about Glenn Glennel Martin that
[01:09:19.759] became Martin Marietta that became
[01:09:21.600] Loheed Martin. So, it's the Martin that
[01:09:23.279] really matters. And to me,
[01:09:24.640] >> correct?
[01:09:25.600] >> And
[01:09:26.799] >> and you and I have talked about that
[01:09:28.159] years past. I've read the documents or
[01:09:30.480] the websites you've sent to me and I'm
[01:09:31.839] already familiar with elements of that.
[01:09:33.520] >> Okay. I've got old newspaper clip.
[01:09:35.279] >> All right. So, we we've got 18 talent.
[01:09:38.000] We've got Sheldon Glashia, Rudolph
[01:09:39.679] Common, Solomon Lefchettz, uh Deser
[01:09:43.600] Arnowit, Dyson. This this begins to feel
[01:09:46.960] like, you know, the boys are back in
[01:09:48.480] town.
[01:09:48.799] >> Yeah. This is physics firepower.
[01:09:50.560] >> Yeah. Right.
[01:09:53.600] And then the trail just seems to go cold
[01:09:57.199] in the beginning of the 1970s.
[01:10:01.360] >> Correct.
[01:10:02.480] So, and I could never reconcile that. I
[01:10:06.400] noticed that back in graduate school
[01:10:08.719] during the 80s and I went to an APS
[01:10:12.719] meeting. That's the American Physical
[01:10:14.159] Society. So, I went to APS meeting with
[01:10:17.040] my dissertation supervisor and I ran
[01:10:19.760] into they had like a booth for the APS,
[01:10:22.560] you know, all the books they sell. uh
[01:10:25.280] the the the Physics Today magazine.
[01:10:28.400] Well, that was published by somebody
[01:10:29.760] else actually, but uh they have all that
[01:10:31.920] for members for membership services and
[01:10:34.159] benefits. And uh so they've got this
[01:10:36.239] advertising booth in the commercial
[01:10:38.239] exhibit part of the uh conference and
[01:10:40.480] they had the APS historian.
[01:10:43.840] And I brought that up with the historian
[01:10:46.719] like what 1984
[01:10:49.920] and Bob Forward at uh was still at the
[01:10:53.120] Hughes Research Labs in Malibu. He's the
[01:10:54.960] one that motivated me to ask that
[01:10:56.480] question because he had been looking at
[01:10:58.880] anti-gravity when he was at Hughes. And
[01:11:02.400] this is before he got his PhD in general
[01:11:05.120] relativity under Joseph Weber at um
[01:11:08.480] University of Maryland in the late 50s.
[01:11:12.719] And the APS historian had no answer for
[01:11:15.600] me as to where this disconnect between
[01:11:19.199] the Yeah. Where where what happened
[01:11:21.360] anti-gravity research? What happened to
[01:11:23.600] this golden age of GR? Uh he said he
[01:11:27.360] said something the effect of similar
[01:11:28.960] what you said. It disappeared in the 70s
[01:11:31.040] but he never saw what happened. All of a
[01:11:32.719] sudden roughly the early 80s now we have
[01:11:36.080] super string theory coming up.
[01:11:39.040] No, there's a there's an innergonome.
[01:11:41.760] So we have this golden age of general
[01:11:44.080] relativity.
[01:11:45.600] Um things culminate in the standard
[01:11:47.600] model 7374 in particle theory.
[01:11:52.159] >> There is a period where there are two
[01:11:54.400] great ideas in physics super symmetry
[01:11:57.040] and grand unification
[01:11:58.560] >> right
[01:11:59.120] >> which dominate during the 70s. Then
[01:12:02.320] there's a pre-stringl like craze for
[01:12:05.600] something called n equals8 supergravity.
[01:12:08.320] And n equals8 supergravity
[01:12:10.320] >> supergravity
[01:12:11.040] >> was the candidate theory that's too
[01:12:13.120] unique to be wrong theory of everything.
[01:12:16.080] And then right up until 1984
[01:12:19.360] where we get the green schwarz anomaly
[01:12:21.280] cancellation and Ed Whitten, Lewis
[01:12:23.120] Whitten's son directs the entire field
[01:12:27.360] uh to put its energies on one bet. And
[01:12:31.199] this is where the the phrase the only
[01:12:32.880] game in town which yeah I remember that
[01:12:35.040] >> toget to o gi t the only game in town
[01:12:38.320] and toget takes over physics where if
[01:12:41.440] you say anything that isn't string
[01:12:43.920] during this period right after 1984 it's
[01:12:47.280] a bloodbath
[01:12:49.040] and basically fineman is upset about it
[01:12:51.679] is upset about it basically pleads no
[01:12:55.040] contest and says I I'm voting with my
[01:12:57.280] feet and going to go do this cosmology
[01:13:00.480] in Texas.
[01:13:02.719] And
[01:13:04.320] years later, we get this very weird
[01:13:07.840] meeting about AI, not not related to
[01:13:10.320] physics, between Mark Andre and Ben
[01:13:12.320] Horovitz.
[01:13:14.239] And they're sat down and told, "Do not
[01:13:17.040] invest in AI startups. AI startups are
[01:13:20.560] not going to be allowed to be a thing.
[01:13:22.480] We're going to have two or three a AI
[01:13:24.400] companies and we're going to cocoon them
[01:13:26.480] in part as part of the federal
[01:13:27.760] government."
[01:13:28.960] >> Huh. and Andre
[01:13:31.600] uh and Horvitz are sitting there and
[01:13:33.040] Horovitz says well I think they say well
[01:13:35.440] how are you going to restrict this you
[01:13:37.360] can't do it at the technology level
[01:13:38.960] because it's just math and you can't
[01:13:40.480] classify math
[01:13:42.080] >> so so Ben basically said look it doesn't
[01:13:43.920] make sense because to regulate AI at the
[01:13:45.360] technology level you're regulating math
[01:13:46.800] and of course we're not going to do that
[01:13:48.080] like that doesn't make any sense and
[01:13:49.760] you'll recall that what they said was no
[01:13:52.239] actually
[01:13:52.800] >> we can classify math
[01:13:54.159] >> we can classify math and literally this
[01:13:56.159] was this is verb this is verbatim this
[01:13:57.600] is this is we we did We we classified
[01:14:00.080] whole entire areas of physics uh with in
[01:14:02.239] the nuclear era and and made made them
[01:14:04.480] state secrets like of the of the like
[01:14:06.640] theoretical [snorts]
[01:14:07.679] >> physics. Yeah.
[01:14:08.880] >> Science of physics.
[01:14:10.159] >> Okay. Now quantum gravity
[01:14:13.520] if you look and you do a Google engram
[01:14:16.159] search there is basically no hits on
[01:14:18.560] quantum gravity until around 1972.
[01:14:22.080] and it comes out of nowhere and we're
[01:14:23.920] backfitted with a story where
[01:14:26.960] um
[01:14:29.679] I can get almost any physicist of today
[01:14:32.159] to repeat the phrase that uh quantum
[01:14:35.440] gravity is the holy grail of theoretical
[01:14:37.280] physics. It's a fictitious history.
[01:14:39.520] >> I remember that's when Fing Davies
[01:14:43.520] um Ford and that group started
[01:14:47.760] publishing their papers on semiclassical
[01:14:49.840] quantum gravity. Well, but my my point
[01:14:52.880] is the physicists do not know their own
[01:14:55.840] history. Just the way most academicians
[01:14:58.320] believe that peer review goes back to
[01:15:00.000] the founding of the Royal Society and
[01:15:02.400] it's very clear that it comes from about
[01:15:04.000] 1965 to 1975.
[01:15:06.560] >> Okay.
[01:15:07.040] >> Um so what we've done is we've erased
[01:15:10.560] institutional memory
[01:15:13.120] of the physicist's origin story from the
[01:15:15.679] physics community. And the this issue of
[01:15:18.080] quantum gravity
[01:15:20.159] looks like a blocking mechanism
[01:15:23.600] that it basically binds to the receptor
[01:15:25.760] of a physicist's mind and it causes them
[01:15:28.640] not to make progress. And so we're 42
[01:15:31.679] years into an unquestionable
[01:15:34.159] um
[01:15:36.239] feels like a mass psychosis.
[01:15:37.840] >> Yeah. We've had all these different
[01:15:39.520] approaches that never work to quantize
[01:15:41.679] gravity.
[01:15:42.159] >> Right. So you have you have what appears
[01:15:43.760] to be a mass delusion. Not that it
[01:15:45.600] wouldn't be a good theory. I I believe
[01:15:47.280] that gra gravity has to be harmonized
[01:15:49.280] with the quantum. I'm not disputing the
[01:15:51.600] quantum.
[01:15:52.000] >> Yeah, there's no question.
[01:15:52.960] >> But the idea that Einstein must be
[01:15:55.520] beaten uh taken to the ground and forced
[01:15:58.000] to submit to the quantum has not been
[01:16:01.199] productive.
[01:16:01.920] >> Correct.
[01:16:02.400] >> And I agree.
[01:16:03.360] >> Okay.
[01:16:04.640] >> But after 42 years of failure, you would
[01:16:07.760] imagine we would hold at least one, two,
[01:16:10.080] or 10 conferences saying, "What do we
[01:16:12.480] have wrong? Why are we not trying to
[01:16:13.840] make progress?
[01:16:14.320] >> And you don't see that.
[01:16:15.600] >> Well, that's the mirror to your thing
[01:16:17.280] that there are no physicists on the
[01:16:19.199] program. But in other words, this is an
[01:16:21.920] effect that is so dumb.
[01:16:25.360] It it is so pathologically stupid, so
[01:16:27.920] unfathomably wasteful.
[01:16:30.640] Why would you not question your own lack
[01:16:32.719] of progress? You know, in in fact,
[01:16:35.040] Leonard Suskin, one of the fathers of
[01:16:36.719] modern string theory, was on a show of a
[01:16:40.560] sister podcast, Kurt Ji. Mongol's
[01:16:42.880] Theories of Everything.
[01:16:45.199] >> I or maybe it was with Lawrence Krauss
[01:16:46.960] and he says, "We have to go back to the
[01:16:50.159] beginning. We have to question
[01:16:52.480] absolutely. We got this wrong. We if we
[01:16:55.840] don't go back to the foundations, I'm
[01:16:57.840] just thinking like finally it's
[01:16:59.760] breaking." He says, "The foundations."
[01:17:01.360] and he says of string theory
[01:17:03.920] I said oh string theory has failed so
[01:17:06.320] what we need to do is not question the
[01:17:08.000] string assumption but we have to go back
[01:17:09.840] to the foundations of string theory and
[01:17:11.440] fix string theory I mean it's an
[01:17:13.120] infinite sequence so one of the
[01:17:14.800] questions that I have is
[01:17:17.520] is physics just are we are we not
[01:17:19.840] getting the obvious somebody figured out
[01:17:22.320] that physics is just too dangerous to do
[01:17:25.120] in a university setting
[01:17:28.960] >> it seems that way to me. It seems that
[01:17:32.239] way to me
[01:17:33.199] >> because you see now we're a joke.
[01:17:35.360] >> That's right.
[01:17:37.360] >> But in 19 I don't know 7977
[01:17:42.320] you had these two Strand effect
[01:17:44.880] problems. You had a guy named John
[01:17:47.120] Aristotle Phillips who was a junior at
[01:17:49.199] Princeton who chose Freeman Dyson for
[01:17:51.920] his advisor for his junior thesis. He
[01:17:55.280] said look I'm the Princeton mascot. I'm
[01:17:58.400] not really very good at physics. can we
[01:18:00.000] use the fact that I'm not really good at
[01:18:01.280] physics to do something novel? And Dyson
[01:18:03.760] said, like what? He said, well, I want
[01:18:05.120] to design an atomic weapon, and I want
[01:18:07.360] you to tell me whether my design would
[01:18:09.040] work using my limited understanding of
[01:18:11.440] physics. And Dyson said, as long as I
[01:18:14.080] give you no information, I simply tell
[01:18:15.679] you whether it would work or not. You do
[01:18:17.040] it all 100% you're on. [clears throat]
[01:18:19.760] So, he submitted his junior thesis.
[01:18:23.760] Dyson took one look at it and said,
[01:18:25.199] "Yeah, this will work." They removed
[01:18:27.440] page 20. Uh,
[01:18:30.480] and I believe it is not found in the
[01:18:33.120] Princeton Library with all of the other
[01:18:34.960] junior thesis.
[01:18:36.000] >> Oh, really?
[01:18:37.679] >> You You've never heard this story?
[01:18:40.239] >> I've not heard that story before. That's
[01:18:42.400] news.
[01:18:43.520] >> Okay. Well,
[01:18:44.159] >> that's very interesting. Very, very
[01:18:46.640] telling.
[01:18:47.040] >> John Aristotle Phillips is the guy who
[01:18:49.600] is in the center of that. There's
[01:18:50.800] another guy named Howard Morland who
[01:18:53.360] heard that name
[01:18:53.920] >> who worked for the progressive magazine
[01:18:56.480] and he had the assignment see if you can
[01:18:59.760] figure out with no knowledge of physics
[01:19:02.080] the teller ulam design for the hydrogen
[01:19:04.480] bomb
[01:19:06.400] and he did it and he did it because all
[01:19:09.280] of the
[01:19:10.960] um
[01:19:12.719] information had been sharded and
[01:19:15.600] discarded and declassified. He basically
[01:19:19.280] put the pieces of the broken coffee cup
[01:19:21.679] back together by being meticulous. So,
[01:19:23.679] it was a an archaeology and reassembly.
[01:19:26.480] It was a reverse engineering program
[01:19:28.080] from the from the shredder of
[01:19:29.440] theoretical physics.
[01:19:30.560] >> Yeah, I agree with that. That sounds
[01:19:31.920] like it.
[01:19:32.480] >> Okay. Well, that that violates
[01:19:34.239] restricted data, which is this bizarre
[01:19:36.880] doctrine that comes from the 50
[01:19:40.239] four
[01:19:40.640] >> four and 46 atomic energy acts.
[01:19:45.840] And the government wanted to
[01:19:48.880] use prior injunction against him because
[01:19:51.199] he had no right to free speech in this
[01:19:53.679] area. And I think what they found was we
[01:19:56.800] can't stop him because we declassified
[01:19:59.360] all the information he used.
[01:20:01.920] So that gave the government a huge
[01:20:03.360] problem which is it was creating a a
[01:20:05.040] stray sand effect and calling attention
[01:20:07.679] to the fact that there are no nuclear
[01:20:09.199] secrets. I mean there probably many but
[01:20:11.840] the core ideas are not are not the
[01:20:14.960] gating function.
[01:20:15.600] >> Yeah that's right.
[01:20:16.400] >> Okay.
[01:20:18.960] Shortly after that we get string theory
[01:20:20.800] and we become kind of incapable.
[01:20:23.600] >> Right. It's like the glass bead game or
[01:20:25.600] something that amuses people at a very
[01:20:27.520] high level. Like we're turning the best
[01:20:30.159] physicists into chess players because
[01:20:32.080] nobody ever blew something up with a
[01:20:33.840] rook. Right.
[01:20:35.920] And
[01:20:38.400] I guess my question to you is are these
[01:20:41.520] two sides of the same coin that we don't
[01:20:43.440] make progress beyond the standard model
[01:20:45.120] and general relativity and we don't have
[01:20:46.719] any physicists on the UFO UAP claimed
[01:20:49.520] crash retrieval program.
[01:20:52.400] I've always thought that the answer is
[01:20:54.400] yes to that question.
[01:20:57.280] >> Do you have any interaction with the
[01:20:58.800] Jasons?
[01:20:59.760] >> No, never.
[01:21:01.199] >> You know who they are?
[01:21:02.800] >> They change. They're not always the same
[01:21:05.520] group. No, I've never met any of them. I
[01:21:08.560] know who. And when I at the time I knew
[01:21:11.360] who was in the Jason's, uh, I didn't
[01:21:13.360] know any of the people on the committee.
[01:21:16.480] >> Do you want to describe what they're
[01:21:17.840] supposed to be?
[01:21:19.199] >> They're supposed to solve problems that
[01:21:20.800] the DoD gives to them.
[01:21:23.040] >> And it's supposed to be comprised of
[01:21:24.560] high level physicists, mathematicians,
[01:21:26.719] and the like.
[01:21:27.280] >> Yeah. Engineers, too. Yeah.
[01:21:28.400] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[01:21:29.360] >> There specific government problems. Uh,
[01:21:31.360] problem. Yeah. Problems. they need a
[01:21:33.520] solution for. So they give a contract to
[01:21:35.040] adjacents to study a particular thread
[01:21:37.440] of problems over a summer. These are
[01:21:39.520] academicians. So they're off from school
[01:21:41.280] for the summer and they devote their
[01:21:43.520] time and energy to solving this problem.
[01:21:45.520] Produce a report, turn it in, they
[01:21:47.280] collect the money, they're done.
[01:21:52.080] One of the things that I think is really
[01:21:53.760] interesting is that there are a tiny
[01:21:56.159] number of people
[01:21:58.239] at a very high level in theoretical in
[01:22:01.440] the foundations of theoretical physics.
[01:22:03.440] >> Correct.
[01:22:04.159] >> And I think most people don't understand
[01:22:07.679] what some of these people are. If I if I
[01:22:10.000] show you a violinist who's a a soloist,
[01:22:14.560] there's no possibility you can convince
[01:22:16.400] yourself that that guy knows nothing or
[01:22:18.239] that anybody could do that, right? Like
[01:22:20.400] you see something that's so astounding,
[01:22:22.960] it only a tiny few could do it. I
[01:22:26.159] believe that the same thing is true
[01:22:28.560] about theoretical physics and pure
[01:22:31.600] mathematics that once you're in the
[01:22:33.520] game, you realize how what a tiny number
[01:22:37.040] of people are at the highest level in
[01:22:38.880] this game and it's just very vertical
[01:22:40.560] and it's there's no mercy.
[01:22:42.080] >> Oh, that's true.
[01:22:42.960] >> Okay. So, here
[01:22:44.000] >> I've known that all the way since I was
[01:22:46.480] in middle school. I read enough of
[01:22:48.960] physics literature when I was a kid. I
[01:22:50.560] realize that.
[01:22:51.679] >> So, here's my question. If I look at
[01:22:55.199] those people, they're so few in number.
[01:22:57.360] I could track all of them
[01:22:59.520] >> and you pretty much know, not exactly,
[01:23:02.400] but by their PhD, you have a 75% chance
[01:23:05.679] that you've identified deep talent.
[01:23:09.199] >> Yeah. So, you know, one of the things
[01:23:11.120] I've said to Jesse is if you wanted to
[01:23:12.719] figure out that the NSA was there be
[01:23:15.600] while there was still no such agency,
[01:23:18.080] you'd look at number theory PhDs and
[01:23:20.239] you'd ask what zip codes do number
[01:23:22.000] theory PhDs live in when they don't get
[01:23:25.600] an academic job that's visible and you
[01:23:27.679] find that they're clustered around Fort
[01:23:29.199] me.
[01:23:30.880] >> Yeah.
[01:23:32.080] >> Okay. Do the same thing for this.
[01:23:34.159] Imagine that what you need is you need
[01:23:36.239] general relativity, the differential
[01:23:38.480] geometry that goes underneath it. So
[01:23:40.880] let's call that Romanian geometry. The
[01:23:43.040] standard model, the differential
[01:23:44.560] geometry that goes underneath that,
[01:23:46.719] we'll call Ariserismanian geometry. and
[01:23:49.440] what modern geometric uh field theory,
[01:23:53.280] you know, TQFT's conformal field
[01:23:55.440] theories on up.
[01:23:58.400] Shouldn't we be able to figure out if
[01:24:00.560] there is a program that's actually
[01:24:02.239] working on this where it's located by
[01:24:05.679] virtue of the fact that there's almost
[01:24:07.440] nobody in this game and we we can track
[01:24:09.679] their physical movements. In other
[01:24:11.040] words, we would have figured out that
[01:24:12.560] there was an awful lot of physics
[01:24:14.239] firepower at a boy school in in New
[01:24:16.560] Mexico.
[01:24:18.000] That's very interesting.
[01:24:20.159] So like a little detective search.
[01:24:23.040] >> I mean my point is is that th this is
[01:24:25.440] the bottleneck and in the current vogue
[01:24:28.960] of saying you know the lone genius
[01:24:31.120] theory is wrong. Um then that that
[01:24:34.880] wouldn't work. But the lone genius
[01:24:36.320] theory is clearly right. I mean it's
[01:24:38.560] just obviously right. It's a it's a scop
[01:24:41.040] to say it isn't. So my my claim is I
[01:24:44.000] know a great deal of those people like
[01:24:47.199] personally.
[01:24:48.000] >> Okay.
[01:24:49.360] >> I see no indication
[01:24:52.000] that they know about any such program
[01:24:54.639] and the only exception I can find is
[01:24:57.840] that there's one black hole that you go
[01:25:00.000] into and you don't come out of called
[01:25:01.520] Renaissance Technologies that hires in
[01:25:03.920] these exact specialties.
[01:25:08.080] It's got a level of profitability that
[01:25:10.639] doesn't really make sense based on what
[01:25:12.320] I know about markets
[01:25:14.639] >> and it's got a secure campus. It's right
[01:25:18.080] next to Brook Haven National Laboratory
[01:25:20.400] and it has the resources of Sunni
[01:25:23.040] Stonybrook and Sunni Stonybrook has a
[01:25:27.280] math and a physics presence that is far
[01:25:29.760] above its rating as a state university
[01:25:33.199] of New York
[01:25:34.480] >> campus even as a even as a flagship.
[01:25:36.880] >> I wasn't aware of that. That's on that's
[01:25:38.880] uh uh in Long Island. Correct.
[01:25:41.600] >> Correct. I mean, I think most people
[01:25:43.600] didn't realize that Cen Yang
[01:25:48.480] was the world's greatest living
[01:25:50.159] theoretical physicist until very
[01:25:51.840] recently. I mean, he was like 104, but
[01:25:54.480] that's where he was. He was the State
[01:25:55.840] University of New York at Stonybrook.
[01:25:57.600] >> I didn't know that. Wow. Um, so my
[01:26:02.320] my question is, can we figure out
[01:26:05.360] whether or not there is a grown-up
[01:26:07.040] effort? Because I don't think it's
[01:26:09.040] really easily possible to reverse
[01:26:11.199] engineer these things when your science
[01:26:13.760] is lagging.
[01:26:17.199] Like GR is the problem. The standard
[01:26:19.280] model is the problem.
[01:26:20.480] >> That absolutely.
[01:26:21.600] >> And yet you your papers
[01:26:23.280] >> Well, my papers are separate from that.
[01:26:25.360] That's the whole point. It has nothing
[01:26:26.960] to do with UFOs. has to do with Mark
[01:26:29.840] propulsion physics program. I'm just
[01:26:31.440] contributing my knowledge.
[01:26:33.360] >> Those those designs aren't going to
[01:26:34.800] work.
[01:26:36.239] >> Well, I didn't know that then, but I'm
[01:26:38.719] at a point where I know that it's
[01:26:41.760] difficult. Well, it's going to be beyond
[01:26:43.440] difficult to engineer warp drives and
[01:26:45.199] wormholes.
[01:26:45.679] >> Well, this is what regardless I'm very
[01:26:47.120] glad we're having this configuration you
[01:26:49.600] >> I took one look at this stuff and I just
[01:26:51.360] said, why is he why is he wasting his
[01:26:53.440] time? You know,
[01:26:54.719] >> it's it's it's it's interest me. It's
[01:26:57.120] what I love and [laughter] I haven't
[01:26:59.120] been able to figure out any way to jump
[01:27:00.719] off that track and get on a track to an
[01:27:02.960] alternative version that could lead to
[01:27:05.520] something as revolutionary as
[01:27:07.520] transmedium propulsion that UAP
[01:27:10.159] demonstrate.
[01:27:12.159] >> Okay. So, at a bare minimum bare minimum
[01:27:15.440] it we would say GR and the standard
[01:27:18.159] model but I already know that even at
[01:27:20.239] the bare minimum that's probably not
[01:27:22.159] even touching the truth.
[01:27:24.320] >> Right. I think what's happening is is I
[01:27:26.480] think the UAP craft are manipulating the
[01:27:30.000] uh the information domain because I
[01:27:33.360] think that there's a subquantum domain
[01:27:35.760] of information. Uh people talk about
[01:27:38.080] Shannon, I'm talking about Fiser
[01:27:39.600] information that Roy Frieden at the
[01:27:41.040] University of Arizona uh did a lot of
[01:27:43.199] research for 25 years on published two
[01:27:46.080] books through Cambridge University Press
[01:27:47.840] on Fiser information was able to use
[01:27:50.159] that to derive all of the major theories
[01:27:52.800] and principles of physics including the
[01:27:55.679] Wheeler Dwit equation from that being
[01:27:58.880] observed and the observer. So it's all
[01:28:00.960] based on the observer which is quite a
[01:28:02.719] quantum pro uh quantum statement. So,
[01:28:05.280] it's a I don't I'd have to dig it up out
[01:28:07.520] of my phone to be able to read to you
[01:28:09.440] the two key terms of Fisher information
[01:28:13.280] from which physics deres.
[01:28:16.000] New scientists did an article on it
[01:28:17.600] which was just brilliant. It was in the
[01:28:19.120] >> Yeah, I'm I'm not following exactly
[01:28:20.719] >> late60s but
[01:28:22.000] >> late 90s sorry. So look, right now
[01:28:25.040] there's a vogue for if physics doesn't
[01:28:27.679] work, we can talk about quantum
[01:28:29.040] information and information theory
[01:28:30.480] because computers have money and so it's
[01:28:32.719] a way for us to try to get money from
[01:28:34.960] people who know computers by making
[01:28:37.120] physics
[01:28:38.239] >> like information is the is the basic
[01:28:40.320] layer of the world. So I I've watched
[01:28:42.159] that push for a change of variables just
[01:28:44.480] like let's make black holes the new
[01:28:46.239] harmonic oscillator that the test object
[01:28:48.639] that we push everything onto. [sighs]
[01:28:51.520] I really don't find that highly
[01:28:53.199] compelling. Like we we basically have
[01:28:55.440] quirks, lepttons, force particles, Higs,
[01:29:00.239] we have this arena called spacetime.
[01:29:02.159] It's all a model. The model is extremely
[01:29:05.920] good. But we don't live there. We don't
[01:29:07.600] live in spaceime.
[01:29:09.280] >> No, I know that.
[01:29:10.239] >> Okay.
[01:29:10.639] >> It's not lines, curves, points, and
[01:29:12.719] manifolds. It's it's a physical space.
[01:29:15.600] >> No, but it may be a manifold. I'm not
[01:29:17.360] saying that it isn't. I'm saying that
[01:29:20.719] you know because of the defects in in
[01:29:22.880] these theories
[01:29:25.199] that you're looking at an effective
[01:29:27.120] theory and you're trying to figure out
[01:29:28.880] what the parent theory is.
[01:29:31.120] >> You have any guesses about that?
[01:29:33.920] >> That's goes back to some ruminations
[01:29:36.159] I've had based on quantum entanglement
[01:29:37.840] quantum uh uh entanglement networks.
[01:29:40.560] People in quantum magazine had talked
[01:29:42.719] about the work they were doing on
[01:29:44.639] quantum entanglements and tensor
[01:29:46.480] networks where they were able to show in
[01:29:48.719] a model how
[01:29:50.719] the big bang is actually a unfolding or
[01:29:53.520] an emerging of spaceime and elementary
[01:29:55.840] particles and the interaction forces
[01:29:57.920] from entanglement networks and I just
[01:30:01.120] don't know how long that has has how far
[01:30:03.920] that has gotten as a theoretical
[01:30:06.560] development but I know that the initial
[01:30:08.560] stage of work that was done in the mid20
[01:30:10.080] 2010s was pretty promising. I just
[01:30:12.320] haven't heard haven't found any
[01:30:14.960] publications
[01:30:16.480] to show or inform me on where they've
[01:30:19.920] gotten with it.
[01:30:20.800] >> Let's talk about getting a craft across
[01:30:24.719] interstellar distances.
[01:30:28.320] >> You've got some kind of and I I want to
[01:30:30.880] be
[01:30:32.639] >> clear that I think propulsion may even
[01:30:34.400] be misleading, but there's something
[01:30:35.920] like is there is there a method of
[01:30:38.239] conveyance? Let's let's call it
[01:30:39.920] conveyance.
[01:30:42.880] Second of all, there's an energy
[01:30:44.320] requirement,
[01:30:45.280] >> of course. And what I'm looking at, I
[01:30:47.520] hate to interrupt you, but what I'm
[01:30:48.880] looking at is something that bypasses GR
[01:30:51.360] because GR is difficult to use.
[01:30:53.840] >> Well, let's talk let's talk about that
[01:30:55.199] one.
[01:30:55.679] >> Get around that whole energy requirement
[01:30:58.239] that shuts down the ability to engineer
[01:31:01.040] and build wormholes or warp drives. We
[01:31:03.520] we've got to come up with something that
[01:31:05.120] gets out of that whole GR.
[01:31:06.880] >> You're grooved towards
[01:31:09.120] this toolkit that's pushed in front of
[01:31:10.880] us, right? Like entanglement is a real
[01:31:13.920] thing,
[01:31:14.719] >> but we talk about it in my opinion
[01:31:17.040] sometimes too much.
[01:31:19.760] I think another thing like that is black
[01:31:21.920] holes wormholes.
[01:31:24.239] >> Again, real things, but at some level we
[01:31:26.800] don't know whether the black hole in the
[01:31:28.159] sky and the black hole in the model are
[01:31:29.679] the same black hole.
[01:31:31.120] >> Yeah.
[01:31:31.679] >> And
[01:31:33.440] all of these things that we can do lead
[01:31:36.159] nowhere, right? We've been around the
[01:31:38.320] traffic circle a million times and by
[01:31:40.480] the third time you've seen the same
[01:31:42.000] 7-Eleven, you're starting to think
[01:31:43.280] something's wrong.
[01:31:47.120] Let's talk about GR as a problem.
[01:31:50.400] So in the standard equation in GR, we've
[01:31:52.560] got really three terms. We've got the
[01:31:54.960] Einstein curvature term. We've got the
[01:31:58.080] dark energy cosmological constant term
[01:32:00.880] >> lambda lambda g
[01:32:02.320] >> well lambda times g mu the metric g mu
[01:32:05.360] and this constant times the stress
[01:32:07.920] energy tensor for everything else
[01:32:09.679] >> the coupling constant. Yeah.
[01:32:10.960] >> Yeah. [sighs and gasps]
[01:32:13.440] Desessie in Arizona
[01:32:15.840] has uh thrown some cold water on the
[01:32:18.080] idea that lambda is a good model for
[01:32:22.320] dark energy because it appears that it's
[01:32:24.080] not constant.
[01:32:25.520] >> I've heard that. Yeah, I've seen some
[01:32:27.920] news about that coming out. Some was it
[01:32:31.040] just theoretical or was there uh hints
[01:32:33.280] of it from observations?
[01:32:35.040] >> That's what I'm saying. The dark energy
[01:32:37.040] spectroscopic instrument or desi
[01:32:40.239] >> seems like it's showing that it's more
[01:32:43.120] it's actually not variable.
[01:32:44.639] >> Yeah, it's time dependent. So, it's
[01:32:47.280] dynamical as opposed to static being a
[01:32:49.520] constant
[01:32:50.000] >> which sounds like a ve a vacuum
[01:32:51.840] expectation value. So that people always
[01:32:54.880] make this mistake, you know, what is the
[01:32:56.560] temperature of the room? And they say
[01:32:58.320] 71°.
[01:32:59.840] You say, well, in which corner? And then
[01:33:01.840] the person thinks, oh, well, I'm sure it
[01:33:03.520] varies between the the floor and the
[01:33:06.000] ceiling and where you are close to the
[01:33:07.760] window. And
[01:33:09.040] >> that idea that a thing is mostly
[01:33:10.960] constant but with fluctuations
[01:33:14.000] >> um is the promotion of a simple number
[01:33:16.880] like lambdom to field content, something
[01:33:19.440] that can vary.
[01:33:21.360] Now
[01:33:23.199] there's a thing called love locks
[01:33:24.880] theorem.
[01:33:25.600] >> Oh, I'm familiar with that. He was a
[01:33:27.120] mathematician at the University of
[01:33:28.480] Arizona. Yeah. Where I went to school,
[01:33:30.239] so I knew him.
[01:33:31.520] >> So tell me about love locks theorem and
[01:33:34.400] variable
[01:33:35.920] uh dark energy.
[01:33:37.199] >> Oh gosh, I can't even think of love
[01:33:38.960] locks theorem, but I know what you're
[01:33:40.159] talking about. Why don't you go ahead
[01:33:41.440] and
[01:33:41.679] >> Well, so the way I remember it, again,
[01:33:43.600] this is I wasn't preparing to do this,
[01:33:45.520] but
[01:33:45.840] >> because keep in mind, it's been 40 years
[01:33:47.440] since I had tensor calculus. uh using
[01:33:50.719] Lovelock's manuscript for his
[01:33:52.719] >> would vodka
[01:33:53.520] >> second book.
[01:33:54.960] >> Yeah, [laughter]
[01:33:57.360] there you Yes.
[01:33:59.440] >> Um [snorts] I think what it says is
[01:34:03.360] that when it comes to geometry,
[01:34:06.159] there are only two tensors you can make
[01:34:09.920] that have this property of being
[01:34:11.760] divergence free that are not dependent
[01:34:15.280] uh on anything else. In other words,
[01:34:18.000] it's a two-dimensional space.
[01:34:20.080] >> And one of them is the Einstein
[01:34:22.480] curvature tensor, which is divergence
[01:34:24.719] free by property of taking an automatic
[01:34:27.920] equation that has to that has to be
[01:34:29.600] satisfied called the Bianke identity.
[01:34:31.120] >> The Bianca
[01:34:31.920] >> and turning it into a different equation
[01:34:34.159] that says that the theory is not
[01:34:37.760] bothered by how you put coordinates on a
[01:34:40.560] system.
[01:34:40.960] >> Correct.
[01:34:42.000] >> That sounds familiar. Yeah.
[01:34:43.199] >> So that's that's the idea of the arm. Mu
[01:34:46.880] new minus 1/2 scaler time g mu newu. The
[01:34:50.320] Einstein curvature tensor is
[01:34:51.679] perpendicular to the space of
[01:34:54.000] transformations of coordinates.
[01:34:56.080] >> Yeah, it's like uh what the intrinsic
[01:34:58.239] curvature. It looks like intrinsic
[01:35:00.480] curvature, right? Well, it's it's the
[01:35:02.239] remon curvature with the vile curvature
[01:35:04.639] thrown away and a trace reversal of this
[01:35:08.560] one piece of the you've got a 10
[01:35:11.120] components of reachi curvature and one
[01:35:13.520] component can be broken out and put them
[01:35:15.440] had a minus sign put in front,
[01:35:16.800] >> right?
[01:35:18.159] >> That object has an automatic
[01:35:19.840] differential equation. And the other one
[01:35:21.120] that has the same automatic differential
[01:35:22.880] equation is lambda times the metric
[01:35:26.000] because if you try to differentiate the
[01:35:28.159] metric
[01:35:29.760] that's always going to be zero by virtue
[01:35:32.159] of the fact that a metric is constant in
[01:35:34.639] its own liita connection. But by the
[01:35:37.760] product rule, if you put a lambda in
[01:35:39.520] front of it, then
[01:35:42.159] the derivative of lambda is zero times
[01:35:45.679] the metric plus lambda* the derivative
[01:35:48.639] of the metric, which is zero for that
[01:35:50.159] same reason. Correct?
[01:35:51.199] >> That those are the only two simple
[01:35:53.679] tensors that have this property. So if
[01:35:56.560] you lose love locks theorem, sorry if
[01:35:59.120] you have love locks theorem and you lose
[01:36:00.719] the constancy of dark energy, you're
[01:36:03.520] starting to actually put general
[01:36:04.800] relativity in some peril.
[01:36:07.199] >> That's very interesting. I hadn't
[01:36:09.679] thought about that. Okay.
[01:36:12.239] >> Depends how you conceive of general
[01:36:13.679] relativity. to continue with this.
[01:36:19.280] >> I don't
[01:36:21.280] believe
[01:36:24.080] that you can engineer these craft
[01:36:28.159] within general relativity or standard
[01:36:30.239] model in any way other than formally. So
[01:36:32.960] the alubi warp drive is a formal
[01:36:36.400] solution to the problem because it it
[01:36:39.120] leaves unressed how the weakest possible
[01:36:42.080] of all forces gravity could be employed
[01:36:45.520] at this completely different level to to
[01:36:48.719] you know sandwich spaceime on top of
[01:36:51.600] itself.
[01:36:54.000] I don't think the generationships make
[01:36:56.000] any sense 800 years.
[01:36:58.239] >> Oh I agree with you.
[01:36:59.440] >> Okay. I don't believe that um
[01:37:04.320] the time dilation makes any sense. It's
[01:37:06.320] too expensive because everybody's dead
[01:37:08.080] when you get back.
[01:37:10.239] >> It's the planet of the ape scenario.
[01:37:12.842] [laughter]
[01:37:13.679] >> I don't I don't believe in in
[01:37:15.840] traversible black wormholes and black
[01:37:19.040] holes and and all this kind of
[01:37:20.239] >> Well, black holes aren't traversible,
[01:37:21.360] but there are wormholes with no
[01:37:23.280] singularities and event horizons that
[01:37:24.800] are traversible.
[01:37:25.600] >> Okay. Yes. But I've I've also heard
[01:37:28.320] weirder stuff involving try somebody
[01:37:30.800] trying to use the information black hole
[01:37:33.520] information paradox to get
[01:37:35.119] >> oh I think that's just uh people have
[01:37:37.920] stretched an analogy too far. So
[01:37:40.400] >> okay but my claim is there's a huge
[01:37:43.520] suite of not really that inventive
[01:37:46.000] ideas.
[01:37:47.840] In other words, we're going to accept
[01:37:49.119] the science that we have as if we can't
[01:37:52.480] do better science and then we're going
[01:37:54.719] to come up with completely implausible
[01:37:56.480] ways of using it and we're going to say
[01:37:58.320] those are the leading candidates. Dr.
[01:38:00.960] Davis, you should push back if you think
[01:38:03.199] traversible wormholes that biological
[01:38:05.440] material can go through is a is a real
[01:38:08.480] feasible thing.
[01:38:10.400] >> You mean biological materials going
[01:38:11.920] through a world?
[01:38:12.639] >> Yeah.
[01:38:13.119] >> I don't see anything that prevents it.
[01:38:15.760] >> Okay.
[01:38:17.280] So, you're going to create a wormhole on
[01:38:18.880] demand to get where you need to go.
[01:38:23.679] You should be able to. That's what my
[01:38:26.719] research showed. There's nothing that I
[01:38:28.960] would think that could stop you other
[01:38:30.560] than that G over C to the 4th power
[01:38:34.159] issue. You you that really gets inverted
[01:38:36.960] when you put it over to the curvature
[01:38:39.840] side of the equation. All right. Then
[01:38:41.440] then the properties of the matter, it's
[01:38:42.880] going to be C to the 4th over G. So,
[01:38:44.719] it's going to be a gigantic number
[01:38:46.719] multiplying the curvature of spaceime
[01:38:48.960] that that matter source creates.
[01:38:51.920] >> So, walk me through how do I get to
[01:38:53.760] Alpha Centuri
[01:38:55.679] by engineering a traversible wormhole?
[01:38:58.320] >> Well, you're going to create the mouth
[01:39:00.480] or the throat. Well, it that's a good
[01:39:03.040] point because even Kip Thorne couldn't
[01:39:04.960] describe it. But the best idea is and
[01:39:08.239] this is Thorn's idea not mine and I
[01:39:10.239] don't endorse it. uh you create a a
[01:39:12.719] mouth right at your departure point in
[01:39:15.360] space. Uh and you're going to need
[01:39:17.679] another spaceship to carry the throat to
[01:39:20.400] the destination point. And that's what
[01:39:24.560] Kip Thorne came with came up with. I'm
[01:39:26.960] thinking when you're creating the
[01:39:28.480] throat, that's where all the physics
[01:39:29.760] occurs anyway. It's not at the mouth,
[01:39:31.840] the exit entrance mouth. It's in the
[01:39:33.679] throat. So when you're creating that
[01:39:35.520] throat
[01:39:37.199] that should automatically
[01:39:40.080] do the the connection the hyperspace
[01:39:43.440] tunnel connection between two points two
[01:39:46.239] distant points earth and Sirius or our
[01:39:50.159] star soul and Sirius as examples or
[01:39:52.800] earth and alpha centtory one of the
[01:39:54.239] planets over there. Um I just know that
[01:39:58.159] it does not give you recipe for
[01:39:59.920] navigating for being able to target your
[01:40:02.800] destination. There are no control
[01:40:04.719] navigational control laws built into
[01:40:07.040] general relativity. All you could do is
[01:40:08.960] build the wormhole and you know you
[01:40:10.960] could do the studies of a geodessic that
[01:40:13.360] goes through it representing either a
[01:40:15.440] photon or a piece of matter and you can
[01:40:17.840] represent that you know it's going to
[01:40:19.360] come out the other side. But how you aim
[01:40:21.119] it and navigate to another star using
[01:40:23.280] it, that's not in generality. You can't
[01:40:25.199] pull that out of you can't pull that
[01:40:26.960] information out unless there's more work
[01:40:29.520] that needs to be done that nobody has
[01:40:31.840] thought of doing.
[01:40:33.679] So
[01:40:35.440] again,
[01:40:35.920] >> but I think you can make a wormhole on
[01:40:37.520] demand if assuming you have the negative
[01:40:41.199] energy density available to shape it.
[01:40:46.320] >> All not one of these proposals excites
[01:40:48.880] me. They they're boring as sin. I'm
[01:40:52.560] sorry to say it. You're talking about
[01:40:55.679] people raised on sci-fi who want to be
[01:40:59.119] scientific. And by wanting to be
[01:41:01.440] scientific, they don't want to go beyond
[01:41:03.199] the two frontier theories that we have.
[01:41:06.960] And they've also said, I don't want to
[01:41:08.480] be uncreative. So the idea is, how do we
[01:41:11.360] come up with a wildly implausible story
[01:41:13.760] based on stuff that is solid? And
[01:41:19.760] at least with some of the other crazy
[01:41:21.520] stuff, I have a feeling at least they're
[01:41:23.679] trying to do new physics so that the
[01:41:26.000] implausibility goes down, but the
[01:41:28.400] speculative nature of the physics goes
[01:41:30.080] up. I think it would be much better to
[01:41:31.520] balance those two. Can we talk about one
[01:41:33.679] of these weird things? Have you looked
[01:41:35.840] at this extended electronamics that no
[01:41:38.400] one in my world has ever heard of?
[01:41:41.440] >> I've seen elements of it. I've seen a p
[01:41:43.760] a paper here and there on that on
[01:41:45.360] extended electronamics.
[01:41:46.960] >> What do you see that as being?
[01:41:50.239] >> I don't know what they're trying to get
[01:41:51.600] at with it. That's my conclusion. I
[01:41:54.320] don't know what they're trying to extend
[01:41:55.840] where it's going.
[01:41:56.800] >> A little context for the audience. This
[01:41:58.719] is um a term that gets thrown around
[01:42:01.520] constantly in UFO discussions. You have
[01:42:04.639] even going back to the '9s, Ben Rich
[01:42:06.719] saying there was some math in Maxwell's
[01:42:09.520] equations that was a little off. You
[01:42:11.040] know, that sort of thing. is this
[01:42:12.639] recurring sort of theme and then you
[01:42:15.280] have people now saying that it's a more
[01:42:18.239] faithful ad adherence to the you know
[01:42:21.360] more expanded Maxwell equations versus
[01:42:23.600] the heavy side kind of simplification of
[01:42:25.760] vector calculus that is extended
[01:42:28.400] electronamics other people say heavy
[01:42:30.800] side is the update that makes the
[01:42:32.480] extended electronamics uh no one seems
[01:42:35.280] to come up with some sort of lrangee and
[01:42:37.360] you've pointed out some real
[01:42:38.960] inconsistencies
[01:42:40.560] uh with the you know gaug varants and
[01:42:43.280] but I believe Hal Puto off who you have
[01:42:45.040] a long work history with and you know is
[01:42:47.040] your long colleague he has some
[01:42:48.880] interesting work in extended
[01:42:49.920] electronamics right
[01:42:51.040] >> never worked on it I I don't know that
[01:42:52.800] Hal has uh the only extended
[01:42:54.800] electronamics I know of is the lrangeian
[01:42:57.520] that you're going to have for high
[01:42:58.719] energy electromagnetic systems and that
[01:43:00.480] would be the borne andfeld lrangeian I
[01:43:03.440] believe it is
[01:43:04.560] >> okay well you're going back to to Yang
[01:43:07.520] Mills theory in the Aelian case
[01:43:09.040] >> it's just the nonlinear version of
[01:43:10.560] Maxwell's equations that you're going to
[01:43:12.159] get out of a lanji that you can
[01:43:13.840] formulate and it will reduce to
[01:43:15.600] Maxwell's equations in the low energy
[01:43:17.280] regime. So extended I don't know what
[01:43:19.520] they're extending that's the thing I've
[01:43:20.800] looked at these and I'm trying to figure
[01:43:22.000] out what suggest
[01:43:22.880] >> here's one thing that I've seen
[01:43:25.679] the Faraday tensor made up of the
[01:43:29.199] electric and magnetic fields is
[01:43:31.520] naturally a degree 2 object. It's not
[01:43:33.840] naturally about vector fields. That only
[01:43:36.000] works if you take a particular slice of
[01:43:40.239] space in spacetime where you shouldn't
[01:43:42.480] do that because that breaks Loren
[01:43:45.040] variance. And then you say, okay, in a
[01:43:47.600] three-dimensional world, every two
[01:43:50.080] tensor is dual to a 3US 2 tensor or a
[01:43:53.199] one tensor or a vector field. And then
[01:43:55.600] you plot out these lines in the E and B
[01:43:58.639] fields uh as if they're vector field.
[01:44:01.199] It's naturally a degree 2 object.
[01:44:04.239] So Maxwell's equations reduce to two
[01:44:07.920] sets of equations. One of which is just
[01:44:09.920] true automatically when it's phrased
[01:44:12.000] geometrically. So if you take da star
[01:44:14.400] some operator
[01:44:16.719] >> based on a the gauge the uh gauge
[01:44:19.760] potential the connect the connection
[01:44:22.320] >> it's really the vector and scalar the
[01:44:24.080] for potential.
[01:44:25.040] >> Yeah. DA star that is the adjint of that
[01:44:29.280] derivative which is itself a derivative
[01:44:31.440] applied to the Faraday tensor brings it
[01:44:33.920] down a degree from two to one
[01:44:35.760] >> right
[01:44:36.159] >> and you say that thing is equal to to
[01:44:40.159] the current J which is a degree one
[01:44:42.400] object.
[01:44:42.960] >> Yeah. But da of FA which takes a degree
[01:44:47.840] 2 object one degree up to a degree three
[01:44:50.239] object is guaranteed to be zero for the
[01:44:53.600] same thing that makes the Einstein
[01:44:56.400] uh tensor divergence free. The bianke
[01:44:59.280] identity is an abstract guaranteed
[01:45:01.600] differential equation that comes out of
[01:45:03.280] the geometric construction of curvature.
[01:45:06.480] So you throw one of the um
[01:45:10.560] these two equations away because it's
[01:45:12.560] guaranteed by geometry. So
[01:45:16.560] >> the boundary of the boundary is zero
[01:45:18.960] >> in in essence. So da
[01:45:21.760] of fa equals z represents two of the
[01:45:25.280] four maxwell equations and you throw it
[01:45:27.360] away and then you're left with the
[01:45:28.480] inhomogeneous ones and that's just da
[01:45:31.040] star of fa equals j. [gasps]
[01:45:35.119] One of the things I've seen in in this
[01:45:36.960] world looks to me like DAR equals A. The
[01:45:43.199] idea is that the gauge potential is a
[01:45:45.280] degree 1 object. And so you take DAR of
[01:45:48.480] of a degree 2 object and that's set
[01:45:51.280] equal to a degree 1 object A.
[01:45:54.400] And that doesn't work to somebody who
[01:45:57.760] thinks in physics terms because on one
[01:46:00.159] side of the equation is what we would
[01:46:02.080] call a gauge invariant object, something
[01:46:04.080] with symmetry,
[01:46:05.119] >> and on the other side there's an object
[01:46:07.600] that picks up an aphine shift, meaning
[01:46:10.480] it isn't gauge invariant.
[01:46:12.560] >> Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I see what you're
[01:46:15.040] talking about.
[01:46:15.440] >> So, you can't rotate both sides of the
[01:46:17.600] equation in the same way at once.
[01:46:20.159] Therefore, it's not a legitimate
[01:46:21.760] equation even though they're both degree
[01:46:23.600] line.
[01:46:23.760] >> So, this would extend electronamics is a
[01:46:25.920] 10.
[01:46:26.239] >> Well, I don't know because to be
[01:46:28.320] entirely honest the extended look, I
[01:46:31.760] have had to wrap my head around the fact
[01:46:33.760] that we have three bizarre groups of
[01:46:35.679] people trying to do physics at least.
[01:46:38.000] There's a crackpot group which writes in
[01:46:40.639] red crayon and
[01:46:44.080] they just don't they're nowhere close to
[01:46:45.920] the target.
[01:46:47.679] There's a professional community which
[01:46:49.920] has gone somewhat insane but still
[01:46:52.719] remembers how to do physics from first
[01:46:55.520] and second year graduate uh intro
[01:46:58.480] classes even if they're researching toy
[01:47:00.400] models and they've never seen a a quark
[01:47:02.639] or a leptton in their research in the
[01:47:04.320] last decade.
[01:47:05.679] >> And then there's this intermediate group
[01:47:07.360] which I just didn't know existed which I
[01:47:09.119] will call fringe physics.
[01:47:12.080] And fringe physics is in general people
[01:47:16.159] with sort of like a an electrical
[01:47:18.639] engineering background. They know
[01:47:20.400] calculus.
[01:47:22.239] They they know integrals. They're often
[01:47:24.159] technically quite good.
[01:47:26.480] And they get an idea that, you know,
[01:47:28.400] gravitation looks a lot like
[01:47:29.840] electromagnetism. I wonder if I can
[01:47:32.080] contribute something. But they don't
[01:47:34.320] have a sense of like all the things that
[01:47:36.239] can go wrong.
[01:47:37.280] >> Yes,
[01:47:38.159] >> I think I knew about that. So they
[01:47:39.679] tinker but sometimes a tinkerer
[01:47:43.840] can stumble on something. So for
[01:47:45.760] example, you could easily imagine
[01:47:47.840] somebody stumbling on the bomb on the
[01:47:50.639] Areronoff bomb effect which is one of
[01:47:53.440] these hidden features of the world. So
[01:47:57.440] our colleague Sabina Hosenfelder has a
[01:47:59.760] video not too long ago where she took
[01:48:01.280] something that I've only thought about
[01:48:03.520] and heard about as physics folklore. So
[01:48:06.000] there's only three ways to hide new
[01:48:07.679] physics. It's kind of an interesting
[01:48:09.040] idea. The first way is that that can be
[01:48:11.520] so energetic that you can't afford to
[01:48:13.440] see it. So maybe there are particles out
[01:48:15.840] there when we can't create enough energy
[01:48:17.520] to get one of these particles to pop out
[01:48:19.280] of the vacuum.
[01:48:20.800] >> Second thing is is that something is so
[01:48:22.480] weakly coupled you can barely detect it.
[01:48:24.960] So there are lots of nutrinos
[01:48:26.400] everywhere.
[01:48:27.280] >> Yes.
[01:48:27.679] >> But they're so hard to get to interact
[01:48:29.679] with anything that you don't know that
[01:48:31.119] they're there. And then the third thing
[01:48:32.639] is the really interesting one for UFO
[01:48:35.119] land.
[01:48:37.040] Sometimes there's a configuration
[01:48:39.520] that you would never think to put things
[01:48:41.360] in. Like let's get the current up to
[01:48:43.440] this. We'll spin something around. We'll
[01:48:45.360] evacuate a tube. We'll put the following
[01:48:47.920] rare compounds that have these
[01:48:49.440] particular things. And maybe we'll see
[01:48:51.520] an effect that is normally hidden
[01:48:53.360] amplified to the point where it becomes
[01:48:55.840] uh absolutely clear. You know, like the
[01:48:57.840] casemir effect. You needed to know that
[01:48:59.760] you had to put two plates very close
[01:49:01.440] together for something to happen.
[01:49:03.360] >> Yeah.
[01:49:05.360] So that's sort of what we're looking
[01:49:06.719] for. We're looking for is there any new
[01:49:10.560] thing
[01:49:12.239] that we could do that doesn't require
[01:49:13.840] too much energy that's not so weakly
[01:49:15.679] coupled that we can barely detect it but
[01:49:18.080] that can be coaxed to show itself the
[01:49:20.639] way the Aeronoff bomb effect could have
[01:49:22.400] been discovered by an experimentter
[01:49:24.480] passing a beam of electrons around an
[01:49:27.199] ins insulated solenoid.
[01:49:29.119] >> Yeah. and noticing, oh my god, it seems
[01:49:32.639] to be able to detect the current.
[01:49:34.560] >> I believe in a podcast with Anna Brady
[01:49:37.520] Estz, how put off openly discussed uh
[01:49:41.119] this idea of extended electronamics and
[01:49:43.360] him even working with uh Joseph
[01:49:46.159] junctions and uh this idea of vector and
[01:49:49.360] scalar potential. So this idea of
[01:49:50.800] extended electronamics is that the you
[01:49:52.560] know Lorent uh gauge is you know kind of
[01:49:55.440] arbitrarily set to zero and the uh
[01:49:58.000] derivatives of the you know vector and
[01:49:59.600] scalar potentials you know uh should not
[01:50:02.320] you know necessarily equal zero and so
[01:50:05.119] theoretically in terms of implications
[01:50:06.800] for the audience instead of having this
[01:50:08.719] transverse herzian wave which is going
[01:50:10.320] to you know propagate at 1 / r 2 you're
[01:50:13.360] going to get electrons pairing off in
[01:50:14.880] all sorts of situations you're going to
[01:50:16.159] get this kind of rapid attenuation of
[01:50:17.760] the signal uh you might have other sort
[01:50:20.400] of more exotic configurations of you
[01:50:23.360] know parallel like you know uh uh uh
[01:50:26.800] wave propagation in a magnetic field or
[01:50:29.679] not even the existence of an electric of
[01:50:31.679] an you know an E- field or whatever with
[01:50:33.440] a with an electromagnetic wave and I
[01:50:35.840] believe Hal has openly discussed this
[01:50:37.600] with Anna Brady Estz on this you know
[01:50:39.840] former National Science Foundation
[01:50:41.520] director on her podcast.
[01:50:42.800] >> I didn't see the video of that.
[01:50:44.639] >> Okay. Okay. I've never I never knew
[01:50:46.719] there was a video until I think um she
[01:50:49.360] mentioned it to me last year or so.
[01:50:51.840] >> So So you hear you hear a lot of this
[01:50:53.600] stuff in UFO world like you know
[01:50:55.440] extended electronamics and then even
[01:50:57.119] possible experimental inroads towards
[01:50:59.199] that and do do you know anything about
[01:51:01.679] that sort of thing or no? Okay.
[01:51:04.239] >> There are a couple of names that came
[01:51:05.760] out of that podcast uh Dr. Lewis Darro
[01:51:08.719] and Dr. uh Larry Forsley that would be
[01:51:10.800] of interest to Dr.
[01:51:12.000] >> And I know Larry.
[01:51:13.119] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[01:51:15.199] >> Well, so one of the things that that
[01:51:18.159] comes out of my work is that
[01:51:21.760] we may have the gauge potential
[01:51:24.719] that you would put into such an equation
[01:51:26.719] wrong. And the thought is the following.
[01:51:29.920] Every gauge potential, every every
[01:51:32.400] connection
[01:51:34.239] um has a disease when you gauge
[01:51:39.199] uh transform it. And this disease uh if
[01:51:42.639] the gauge transformation is called G it
[01:51:44.560] would look like G inverse DG where D
[01:51:47.280] attacks G. So you differentiate the
[01:51:49.599] transformation and then you use the G
[01:51:51.199] inverse to pull it back to the origin of
[01:51:53.679] the league group.
[01:51:54.719] >> Okay,
[01:51:55.760] >> that term has no reference to the the
[01:52:01.119] connection or the gauge potential A. In
[01:52:04.400] other words, it's G inverse DG.
[01:52:06.560] >> Yeah. But G inverse AG is perfectly uh
[01:52:10.960] gauge invariant if you put it into a
[01:52:12.880] lrronian. So in other words, there's a
[01:52:15.040] part that works beautifully and there's
[01:52:18.159] the part that spoils the party.
[01:52:20.159] >> But the part that spoils the party has
[01:52:21.920] no dependence on A whatsoever.
[01:52:24.320] >> Uhhuh. So if you had two separate
[01:52:26.239] potentials A and B,
[01:52:28.880] you'd get G inverse A G plus G inverse
[01:52:34.560] DG and G inverse B G plus G inverse DG.
[01:52:42.159] So the diseases are the same. You take a
[01:52:44.719] difference between them and the two
[01:52:46.560] diseases kill each other and go away and
[01:52:49.280] you have two terms left over. G inverse
[01:52:52.000] A G and G inverse BG added together. So
[01:52:56.000] one possibility is that even though this
[01:52:58.560] community says a bunch of stuff that
[01:53:00.400] makes me very uncomfortable
[01:53:04.239] is that you could have a tinkering
[01:53:06.159] community that is actually stumbling to
[01:53:09.199] things that everyone else is too
[01:53:10.719] sophisticated to look for. Just the way
[01:53:13.440] when we thought it was the E and the B
[01:53:15.119] fields, nobody was looking for the
[01:53:17.280] holomi effect which is a classical
[01:53:19.199] effect that's discovered quantum
[01:53:20.719] mechanically. So the embarrassment of
[01:53:23.840] finding the Areronoff bomb effect in the
[01:53:26.000] late 50s when we thought we knew
[01:53:28.239] everything there was to know about
[01:53:29.599] electromagnetism
[01:53:32.159] is the great greatest proof we have that
[01:53:35.599] a theory that is supposedly completely
[01:53:38.239] picked over and totally explored may
[01:53:41.679] have basic
[01:53:44.480] things that we have wrong about it well
[01:53:47.119] into our sophisticated old age.
[01:53:49.679] >> Yeah. uh basically up until that point
[01:53:52.480] nobody realized or even gave thought
[01:53:55.119] that the four vector potential was a
[01:53:57.040] physical field.
[01:53:59.119] >> Well, and it isn't in a certain sense.
[01:54:00.800] It's a qu So I give this example that if
[01:54:03.840] you know a professional model, they're
[01:54:06.159] expected to to have a set of things that
[01:54:08.239] are called polaroids. They're just shots
[01:54:10.000] of that model in various standard poses
[01:54:14.080] so that somebody who wants to hire that
[01:54:15.920] model can say this is what this person
[01:54:18.239] looks like without makeup and without
[01:54:19.760] fancy clothes. Right?
[01:54:21.280] >> Mhm.
[01:54:22.320] >> Those different polaroids are what we
[01:54:25.040] would call
[01:54:26.880] uh I don't know they're sort of avatars
[01:54:28.719] of the same underlying human. So if
[01:54:31.599] somebody says I want to hire that person
[01:54:33.520] in three/arter profile, you say well no
[01:54:37.360] you hire the person that's just the
[01:54:39.199] particular shot of the person. The
[01:54:41.760] electromagnetic potential is a an
[01:54:45.040] equivalence class equivalent to give me
[01:54:47.520] all of the polaroids to represent the
[01:54:49.599] one model.
[01:54:50.480] >> Okay. So the big problem comes out when
[01:54:53.679] you single out one polaroid and you say
[01:54:55.599] no no no that's the field because what
[01:54:58.239] that is is that's that's a particular
[01:55:00.239] representation of that field but they're
[01:55:02.400] all representations of the same
[01:55:04.080] underlying field.
[01:55:05.440] >> Okay. Yeah.
[01:55:06.719] >> So that's the problem that needed to get
[01:55:08.239] solved.
[01:55:08.639] >> So we don't have anybody in academia
[01:55:10.880] that's pursuing extended electronamics.
[01:55:14.320] >> I don't know.
[01:55:16.400] >> Uh no we do. Um there's a guy named Lee
[01:55:19.199] Hiveley uh in Colorado Springs and he
[01:55:22.639] has a a colleague named Woodside who I
[01:55:25.119] believe is in Australia and then there's
[01:55:28.320] another guy I think uh Strobble or Loel
[01:55:31.280] or something. So there there a couple
[01:55:32.480] there a few of these guys and they've
[01:55:33.920] written a paper about extended
[01:55:35.520] electronamic.
[01:55:37.360] So, another thing that really confuses
[01:55:39.199] me is I saw a bizarre um
[01:55:43.760] video from 1991, which Joe Rogan pointed
[01:55:47.520] me to with this guy Bob Lazar seemingly
[01:55:50.880] talking nonsense.
[01:55:52.159] >> Yes.
[01:55:53.599] >> Do you recall what he says about the
[01:55:57.280] fact that you do this engineering with
[01:55:59.679] gravity wave A and gravity wave B?
[01:56:03.599] >> He No, not entirely. It's been so long.
[01:56:06.480] uh he doesn't know what he's talking
[01:56:07.679] about because he was a radiation health
[01:56:09.679] monitor for uh uh Kimber
[01:56:15.119] Meyer company and they were a logistics
[01:56:17.520] service uh company servicing Los Alamos
[01:56:21.199] National Lab in Area 51. He never had
[01:56:23.599] security clearances. He never graduated
[01:56:25.599] never he dropped out of his first year
[01:56:27.119] of college etc etc. He's not a
[01:56:29.360] physicist.
[01:56:29.920] >> Well, I know that.
[01:56:30.719] >> Yeah, I know. So, I don't remember, but
[01:56:32.400] all I know is he he claims uh element
[01:56:35.199] 115 created uh antimatter, which somehow
[01:56:39.360] had something to do with creating
[01:56:41.040] gravitational waves in the in the
[01:56:42.719] propulsion.
[01:56:43.280] >> Did you hear the Jeffrey Epstein tape
[01:56:45.040] with Steve Bannon?
[01:56:47.599] >> No. No.
[01:56:48.560] >> Jeffrey Epstein didn't know what he was
[01:56:49.920] talking about either.
[01:56:50.719] >> No, I'm not familiar.
[01:56:51.920] >> But you can tell that Jeffrey Epstein
[01:56:53.840] was talking to people who knew what they
[01:56:55.520] talk what what they were talking about
[01:56:57.599] and he's this garbled version of this.
[01:57:00.719] Let's assume the same thing for Bob
[01:57:02.159] Lazar. Let's assume that he was
[01:57:03.520] janitorial staff and that he just
[01:57:05.360] happened to be in a sensitive location
[01:57:07.360] and that he's saying something because
[01:57:08.960] it sounds to me like total garbage.
[01:57:11.199] Okay.
[01:57:11.520] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[01:57:12.880] >> Okay. He says this thing which is crazy.
[01:57:15.360] He says there's gravity wave A and
[01:57:17.599] gravity wave B and you most likely think
[01:57:20.719] of gravity as as gravity wave B. That's
[01:57:23.280] the long range stuff with stars and
[01:57:25.360] planets. He says, "But gravity wave A is
[01:57:27.840] different and you associate it with the
[01:57:29.599] strong nuclear force." So, of course,
[01:57:32.639] like I'm just I want to throw up in my
[01:57:35.280] mouth, right?
[01:57:37.440] >> And he says this thing about
[01:57:40.719] QCD, quantum chromodnamics of the strong
[01:57:43.599] nuclear force is is what gravity wave A
[01:57:46.080] is all about. And so the idea is going
[01:57:48.159] to be that somehow if you could actually
[01:57:50.880] understand that what was going on in QCD
[01:57:52.960] had to do with gravity, you would
[01:57:54.400] understand that that's the source of
[01:57:56.400] strength with the ability to actually do
[01:57:58.480] something with space and time. So seems
[01:58:01.280] totally stupid, but let me just point
[01:58:02.960] out the following thing.
[01:58:06.960] There are only two lrangeians or actions
[01:58:10.480] that I know of that give an oiler lrange
[01:58:14.639] equation
[01:58:16.560] with the curvature appearing without a
[01:58:18.960] derivative in front of it. One of them
[01:58:20.880] is the Einstein Hilbert action which
[01:58:23.440] when differentiated
[01:58:25.280] gives you the reachi curvature minus the
[01:58:28.320] scalar curvature over two times the
[01:58:30.239] metric. The other one is a thing called
[01:58:32.719] the churn simons function. Yeah, it's
[01:58:35.599] been
[01:58:36.000] >> churn Simon's action.
[01:58:37.199] >> Yeah,
[01:58:38.239] >> the churn Simon's action comes from
[01:58:40.880] something called the transgression of
[01:58:42.719] the pontryan class in the churn
[01:58:45.520] representation.
[01:58:46.320] >> Yeah,
[01:58:48.080] >> that is part of QCD.
[01:58:50.719] In other words, the normal Yang Mills
[01:58:54.239] lrangeian we would represent as F inner
[01:58:59.360] product F norm square of F. F is the
[01:59:03.280] field strength
[01:59:04.080] >> from the topology of uh uh what is
[01:59:07.119] geometry and topology for physics and I
[01:59:09.280] can't remember who the author of that
[01:59:10.480] book was but I've seen that
[01:59:12.639] >> but in only in dimension four you can
[01:59:15.679] form a different quantity where you take
[01:59:18.639] f inner
[01:59:21.119] star f
[01:59:22.159] >> mhm
[01:59:22.800] >> where star is the hodge star or
[01:59:24.639] complimentarity operator
[01:59:26.800] >> and that thing
[01:59:29.360] generates the pontreagen class which
[01:59:31.520] when transgressed gives you the churn
[01:59:33.360] Simons which gives you the lrangeian
[01:59:35.679] that is closest to general relativity.
[01:59:38.320] >> Interesting. Uh I haven't seen that.
[01:59:40.719] >> Well, because nobody's talked about it
[01:59:42.320] ever.
[01:59:43.360] >> Okay, that's
[01:59:44.320] >> so this is the I think this is the first
[01:59:45.599] time I'm I'm ever mentioning it in
[01:59:48.080] public. So the thought that I had was
[01:59:50.639] assume that Bob Lazar is an unreliable
[01:59:52.960] narrator and he was hanging around water
[01:59:55.840] coolers and he was hearing crazy stuff
[01:59:57.520] and that it's a mix of and
[01:59:59.679] something.
[02:00:01.440] Is it possible,
[02:00:03.520] Eric, that what he's talking about is
[02:00:07.040] that the theta term from QCD
[02:00:10.320] is what he's calling stupidly gravity
[02:00:12.560] wave A, which no person I've ever heard
[02:00:14.400] of has ever used that terminology.
[02:00:17.440] >> I wouldn't think he'd be consciously
[02:00:19.440] aware of that. [laughter]
[02:00:22.320] I don't know if it's possible. It's too
[02:00:24.480] I I can't rely on anything he says
[02:00:26.560] because of his history.
[02:00:29.199] >> Dr. Davis, just to play devil's advocate
[02:00:31.280] with Bob Lazar, you were saying there's
[02:00:33.040] this long-standing UFO legacy crash
[02:00:35.199] retrieval program. You have one guy
[02:00:38.000] who's come out publicly and has not
[02:00:40.800] changed his story since ' 89. We didn't
[02:00:43.440] really know too much about the existence
[02:00:45.119] of Area 51. Definitely not S4.
[02:00:47.599] >> He's never been there.
[02:00:49.199] >> But how would he know about, you know,
[02:00:50.800] Janet Airlines flight? and he worked at
[02:00:53.440] the uh unclassified logistic support
[02:00:55.679] facility over on McCarron uh over on
[02:00:58.719] Sunset Boulevard next to uh not Sunset
[02:01:01.920] Boulevard, Sunset Drive next to McCarron
[02:01:03.840] Airport. There's a row of light
[02:01:06.320] industrial buildings along Sun uh Sunset
[02:01:08.880] Road
[02:01:09.679] >> and um McCarron is right across the
[02:01:11.760] street. So Kimber Kimber Meyer was
[02:01:14.320] there. EG&G Special Projects was like
[02:01:16.560] next door. So he didn't go because he
[02:01:19.679] didn't have clearances. His job was just
[02:01:21.760] a radiation health badge monitor. So
[02:01:24.480] people that get on the Janet flight to
[02:01:25.920] go to Area 51, he gives them their
[02:01:28.560] radiation badges. When they come home
[02:01:30.560] from work, they get off that Janet
[02:01:32.239] flight, they got to give them back, give
[02:01:33.679] those badges back to him. And his job is
[02:01:35.599] to check those badges every day to make
[02:01:37.440] sure that they're
[02:01:38.159] >> okay. But he's not a theoretical
[02:01:39.360] physicist, but he does have engineering
[02:01:41.199] chops. Like he runs currently United
[02:01:44.080] Nuclear. He literally put a jet engine
[02:01:46.080] on the tobacco Honda. I know he's just a
[02:01:48.719] tinkerer. He's a hobbyist. He's also
[02:01:50.800] been twice convicted of felonies
[02:01:52.560] including [clears throat]
[02:01:53.840] >> this isn't guys in that case.
[02:01:55.840] >> I have no interest in Bob Lazar the
[02:01:57.840] person. The key question is if he was
[02:02:00.239] proximate to information that he garbled
[02:02:03.040] is it possible
[02:02:03.920] >> could it be possible
[02:02:04.880] >> to take the garbled message and
[02:02:07.040] associate QCD with two sectors a Yang
[02:02:10.400] Mills sector and a Pontriogen sector.
[02:02:13.040] And that the churn vape representation
[02:02:15.040] of the pontreagan sector inside of QCD
[02:02:17.520] with associated with the theta term can
[02:02:20.080] lead to something which has Einstein
[02:02:22.320] like properties which is that the
[02:02:23.679] differential
[02:02:24.239] >> remarkable
[02:02:24.880] >> that would be remarkable right
[02:02:26.320] >> absolutely remarkable this vacuum energy
[02:02:28.960] stupendous
[02:02:29.760] >> so the thing that I'm so let's get into
[02:02:31.840] vacuum energy and zero point what the
[02:02:33.840] source of energy is for all of these
[02:02:35.599] things I'm very turned off by certain
[02:02:40.159] attempts to mine
[02:02:42.800] Like if you look at the Heisenberg
[02:02:44.800] uncertainty relations, one of the great
[02:02:47.040] innovations in our time is that they've
[02:02:50.080] been associated to the simplectic form
[02:02:53.119] on phase space in ordinarily classical
[02:02:56.639] Hamiltonian dynamics. In other words,
[02:02:58.960] you take the space of configurations of
[02:03:01.599] a mug on a table. Then you add
[02:03:05.440] the momenta. So that doubles the space
[02:03:09.040] its size to get go from configuration
[02:03:11.280] space to phase space, position to
[02:03:13.040] position and momentum.
[02:03:14.239] >> Right?
[02:03:15.040] >> On that space there's a guaranteed
[02:03:17.199] object called the simplectic form that
[02:03:19.679] comes just out of the math.
[02:03:22.000] The big innovation was to say, you know,
[02:03:25.119] that thing is actually the at the base
[02:03:29.280] of a different different structure
[02:03:30.880] called a line bundle and it's the
[02:03:32.480] curvature tensor for this line bundle
[02:03:35.119] with a connection whose sections form
[02:03:38.000] the Hilbert space in quant in
[02:03:40.080] quantization effectively in a certain
[02:03:42.400] sense.
[02:03:42.960] >> You think fiber bundle?
[02:03:44.080] >> Well, yeah, it's a line bundle. Exactly.
[02:03:46.560] that that line bundle its L2 sections
[02:03:49.920] properly taken polarized there's a whole
[02:03:52.000] rigomear roll
[02:03:52.880] >> right
[02:03:53.679] >> sort of self-quantiz the manifold in
[02:03:56.880] other words
[02:03:57.920] >> that the the classical mechanics
[02:04:01.440] >> leads naturally to the quantum theory
[02:04:04.159] when you realize it's not an isolated
[02:04:06.480] degree 2 object but a degree 2 object
[02:04:08.719] that comes as the curvature of something
[02:04:10.480] else that we had not thought to study
[02:04:12.676] [gasps]
[02:04:13.280] if you try to if that's the source of
[02:04:15.119] the Heisenberg uncertainty relations.
[02:04:17.040] That's a curvature you can't get rid of.
[02:04:20.880] So if you try to mine it, I don't really
[02:04:23.119] see how you extract
[02:04:26.800] um from something that can't be
[02:04:28.639] lessened. On the other hand, were you to
[02:04:31.679] try to tap into the dark energy, if that
[02:04:34.080] is in fact a ve a vacuum expectation
[02:04:36.960] value rather than a hard constant,
[02:04:40.239] could that be used as a ondemand power
[02:04:43.520] source?
[02:04:44.159] >> Sure could be.
[02:04:45.840] you work on that at all?
[02:04:47.520] >> No, but I looked at people who sent me
[02:04:50.719] their ruminations on that idea and it
[02:04:53.679] looked pretty intelligent, but it wasn't
[02:04:55.280] very well-developed in my opinion. So, I
[02:04:57.840] think [clears throat] that would be a
[02:04:58.800] great direction to go and I like where
[02:05:01.040] you're going here.
[02:05:02.080] >> I'm just trying to be constructive. Let
[02:05:03.440] me let me try another one.
[02:05:04.400] >> I like where you're going. I think you
[02:05:05.440] pointed out some stuff I'm not aware of
[02:05:07.040] other than the dark energy aspect which
[02:05:09.440] I'm already aware of. Um, which need to
[02:05:11.679] be followed up on. Imagine for the
[02:05:14.719] moment that you embed what we currently
[02:05:17.360] call spacetime
[02:05:19.119] >> in its space of all pointwise Lorencian
[02:05:21.840] metrics. So every way you could possibly
[02:05:23.840] have of measuring length and angle
[02:05:26.320] through a series of three rulers, one
[02:05:29.040] watch and six protractors. Okay,
[02:05:34.000] >> that's a 14-dimensional object that I
[02:05:36.080] work with on a daily basis that I call
[02:05:38.000] the observers. We don't have to get too
[02:05:39.840] far into this, but the point that I want
[02:05:41.520] to make is the following.
[02:05:43.067] >> [gasps]
[02:05:44.000] >> There are ways of traveling through time
[02:05:46.159] and and space. And I want to say also
[02:05:48.639] that time really should always be times
[02:05:50.800] because the number of actual temporal
[02:05:52.719] dimensions we currently think is one,
[02:05:54.880] but it doesn't need to be one.
[02:05:56.800] >> I agree.
[02:05:57.599] >> Okay.
[02:06:00.960] We talk a lot about entanglement. We
[02:06:02.800] talk a lot about wormholes. We don't
[02:06:06.320] talk about pinch to zoom.
[02:06:08.080] >> We don't talk about what?
[02:06:09.280] >> Pinch to zoom. Imagine that you pointed
[02:06:13.440] at a star that you wanted to visit and
[02:06:16.719] imagine that you could find some way of
[02:06:18.719] traveling in 10 transverse dimensions.
[02:06:22.320] >> Okay?
[02:06:23.840] >> Where what you're doing is growing the
[02:06:26.080] ruler in the direction between you and
[02:06:28.320] that star.
[02:06:31.040] >> Now once the ruler says one foot,
[02:06:34.480] you need the energy to walk one foot,
[02:06:36.800] right?
[02:06:37.199] >> Not the energy to walk four light years,
[02:06:39.679] >> right?
[02:06:40.960] And then you have to put the ruler back.
[02:06:42.560] So you have to shrink the ruler to grow
[02:06:44.880] the distance after you've grown the
[02:06:46.320] ruler to shrink the distance. Okay?
[02:06:48.159] >> So the idea is that this is something
[02:06:49.599] like pinch to zoom which doesn't work on
[02:06:52.079] an ordinary table. But if this was a
[02:06:53.840] smart table, it would be a what's called
[02:06:57.760] a multi-touch gesture.
[02:07:00.400] Have you thought about whether
[02:07:01.520] multi-touch gestures like pinch to zoom
[02:07:04.079] or another one that I call shear to tilt
[02:07:06.639] might be built into the object that we
[02:07:08.480] confuse for spacetime?
[02:07:10.639] >> It sounds plausible. I like that. Um
[02:07:13.760] I've seen hints of something like that
[02:07:15.520] in some books I've read back in the '9s.
[02:07:18.880] Uh very small hints of it and uh I
[02:07:22.079] thought there was something to it that I
[02:07:23.840] just didn't follow up on. Um yeah, I
[02:07:27.119] would say that makes sense. That makes
[02:07:29.040] sense to me. That
[02:07:31.360] Yeah,
[02:07:33.280] that's very interesting idea.
[02:07:36.400] >> Do you think much about dark chemistry?
[02:07:40.320] >> About which?
[02:07:41.280] >> Dark chemistry.
[02:07:42.560] >> Dark chemistry.
[02:07:43.520] >> Like chemistry with dark matter?
[02:07:45.199] >> No, I don't.
[02:07:49.360] >> I see.
[02:07:50.079] >> I haven't seen anybody
[02:07:52.400] use that phrase before.
[02:07:55.760] supposedly dark matter doesn't interact
[02:07:57.679] with uh regular matter uh especially at
[02:08:01.199] the electromagnetic force level. So
[02:08:03.440] >> well that's what we mean largely by dark
[02:08:05.920] right that
[02:08:06.480] >> yeah like because you can't see it
[02:08:08.159] there's no luminosity involved
[02:08:10.639] >> no exchange of photons that we can
[02:08:12.320] visibly see and collect a spectrum for.
[02:08:15.599] >> Well we have we we sort of have three
[02:08:17.199] long range carriers. We have light we
[02:08:19.280] have gravity and we have nutrinos
[02:08:21.360] >> right
[02:08:22.639] >> uh that we know about. But let me ask
[02:08:24.719] you about a weird phrase that I keep
[02:08:26.639] hearing that I don't understand. I keep
[02:08:28.159] hearing about interdimensional beings
[02:08:30.239] which causes me to want to throw up in
[02:08:31.840] my mouth. People uh I think that's
[02:08:34.239] colloquial.
[02:08:35.360] >> Do you know what this is?
[02:08:36.079] >> Interdimensional means you're going
[02:08:37.520] between dimensions. So I don't
[02:08:39.920] understand the word interdimensional
[02:08:41.840] beings. I think it's really beings that
[02:08:44.400] could trans transverse other dimensions
[02:08:47.280] or traverse other dimension. Does it
[02:08:49.360] mean something technical being that's
[02:08:51.440] interdimensional? [clears throat] Again,
[02:08:53.119] let's
[02:08:53.679] >> we move through three spatial
[02:08:55.840] dimensions. So that makes us
[02:08:57.199] interdimensional already. Okay. And we
[02:08:59.119] move through time allegedly in one
[02:09:01.119] direction.
[02:09:01.679] >> So David Crush I believe used this
[02:09:03.840] phrase in a hearing and they talked
[02:09:05.920] about holography.
[02:09:07.360] >> Yeah. Dave's not a physicist. That's
[02:09:09.199] >> I understand that. So what I'm trying to
[02:09:11.280] look again the point isn't to say
[02:09:13.360] whether somebody knows what they're
[02:09:14.880] talking about but to say assume that
[02:09:18.159] somebody does assume that the plumber
[02:09:21.360] comes to you and says wow I was just out
[02:09:23.199] at some crazy base and I don't even know
[02:09:25.920] what these words mean but here's what I
[02:09:27.520] heard right so very often I'm just
[02:09:29.679] trying to I'm not I don't care
[02:09:31.280] >> yeah I think he's heard that from his
[02:09:34.079] briefings given to from the briefings
[02:09:36.159] given to him on the crash retrieval
[02:09:37.520] program I just you know he can't tell me
[02:09:41.040] that level of information at the
[02:09:42.880] classified level cuz I'm not cleared for
[02:09:44.400] it. So he can verbally on a superficial
[02:09:47.199] level
[02:09:49.040] discuss it in the open but I don't know
[02:09:51.679] what he if he's it sounds like he's
[02:09:53.440] garbling stuff at times. So
[02:09:55.360] >> and if we had an adversary that was
[02:09:57.840] aware of multiple temporal dimensions
[02:10:00.480] where we're only aware of one. So we
[02:10:03.679] have an arrow of time and they would
[02:10:05.199] have
[02:10:05.760] >> multiple
[02:10:06.400] >> like a right-hand rule of time. be it
[02:10:09.599] have you thought much about the threat
[02:10:11.599] assessment as to what capabilities a
[02:10:17.199] >> nobody does threat assessments like that
[02:10:18.800] but I would say that is something worth
[02:10:21.040] worth having a threat assessment done on
[02:10:25.440] >> and have you
[02:10:27.920] are you aware of reports that we are
[02:10:32.639] being I wouldn't say menaced but
[02:10:37.280] >> monitored
[02:10:38.400] made to know that we do not control our
[02:10:40.560] space.
[02:10:41.440] >> Yes.
[02:10:42.320] >> Do you find that highly credible?
[02:10:44.000] >> Yes.
[02:10:45.679] >> What percentage?
[02:10:46.960] >> 100. Because it was definitive. It was
[02:10:49.119] that was told to me definitively, not
[02:10:52.079] speculatively. It was we know this to be
[02:10:54.480] true.
[02:10:55.040] >> So, I've been told the same thing by
[02:10:56.560] multiple parties who are not related.
[02:10:58.880] All of whom seem like credible people.
[02:11:01.760] Yet, nobody seems to have direct
[02:11:05.440] firsthand
[02:11:06.719] >> Yeah.
[02:11:07.679] Even I can't get into that level. I
[02:11:09.599] mean, Harry Reid tried to get a special
[02:11:11.360] access program and he failed because
[02:11:12.960] Deputy Secretary of Defense William Lynn
[02:11:15.920] denied it. And that was because Harry
[02:11:18.000] Reid did it the wrong way. He did it the
[02:11:20.239] wrong way and that's why it got denied
[02:11:21.760] if we did it the proper way, which I'm
[02:11:24.159] trained on in the security apparatus.
[02:11:26.960] Uh, we would have been more successful.
[02:11:29.679] >> So, do you remember Dick Fineman's book
[02:11:32.159] of stories like surely you're joking and
[02:11:34.480] what do you care what other people
[02:11:35.599] think? Oh yeah, it's been long time
[02:11:38.000] since.
[02:11:38.239] >> Do you remember a story called Any
[02:11:40.079] Questions in which he goes to Buffalo,
[02:11:42.400] New York because as a physics professor
[02:11:45.360] at Cornell, he has to teach in an
[02:11:48.000] aerospace company.
[02:11:50.159] >> Yeah, vaguely. I vaguely
[02:11:52.079] >> he gets beat up or something in a in a
[02:11:54.960] washroom or Yeah.
[02:11:56.000] >> over a girl. I forget what.
[02:11:58.719] >> Do you have a sense what Richard Fineman
[02:12:01.040] was doing with all of this? because he
[02:12:04.000] also has another weird story where he's
[02:12:06.000] got patents for sub nuclear submarines,
[02:12:08.719] nuclear planes, nuclear shopping, I
[02:12:11.520] don't know what uh are aerospace
[02:12:14.960] companies something that we don't
[02:12:16.400] understand where people actually did
[02:12:18.400] basic physics research, not material
[02:12:21.440] science, not something that's plane or
[02:12:24.880] rocket or drone adjacent, but where
[02:12:28.719] people were doing actual
[02:12:32.400] frontier research. arch in fundamental
[02:12:34.000] physics.
[02:12:35.360] >> No, they wouldn't do that. Not in that
[02:12:38.000] not in that uh
[02:12:39.199] >> so they wouldn't use it as a shell.
[02:12:40.880] >> No, they do applied physics research.
[02:12:44.480] They're they're developing technical
[02:12:46.159] solutions to the government customer's
[02:12:48.320] request to to answer the government
[02:12:51.119] customer's need for a solution to some
[02:12:53.040] problem. So it does it go to fundamental
[02:12:55.520] physics like can should we worry about
[02:12:58.000] these type of quirks versus those type
[02:13:00.159] of quirks? No, no, no. They're looking
[02:13:02.000] at a physics that could be applied to
[02:13:04.079] the engineering of a technological
[02:13:05.840] solution for the government customer.
[02:13:07.840] That's what the aerospace industry does.
[02:13:10.239] Oh, I understand what it's supposed to
[02:13:11.840] do. What I'm trying to say is, is it a
[02:13:13.920] system of containers
[02:13:16.400] and you can put anything in a container?
[02:13:18.400] I mean, in other words, you could
[02:13:19.760] imagine that if a container was secure,
[02:13:23.440] you could put a a drug laundering, you
[02:13:25.520] know, moneyaundering drug operation
[02:13:27.599] inside of it, and we wouldn't think, oh,
[02:13:29.360] that's what you'd expect to find. That's
[02:13:30.960] right. Yeah.
[02:13:31.440] >> That it's like something crawled into
[02:13:33.280] that shell. My question is, is it
[02:13:36.000] possible that theoretical physics was
[02:13:38.880] sort of relocated
[02:13:41.360] into [clears throat] aerospace companies
[02:13:44.239] because this is a
[02:13:45.360] >> I wouldn't say no to that. That's
[02:13:46.800] possible.
[02:13:48.480] That's possible. Uh when we spoke to Hal
[02:13:50.480] put off he said definitively he said you
[02:13:53.040] know um I don't not sure about
[02:13:55.119] fundamental physics being tied up in
[02:13:56.639] aerospace corporations but he goes
[02:13:58.400] topological physics like probably and he
[02:14:01.520] said it it it would seem to me that
[02:14:03.440] physics generally is held in these
[02:14:05.840] aerospace uh companies and uh you know
[02:14:08.880] that was very it made your sort of blood
[02:14:10.320] boil as it should.
[02:14:12.159] >> I worked for the aerospace corporation
[02:14:13.520] for four and a half years. I was one of
[02:14:15.520] only
[02:14:17.679] >> a dozen or so physicists with PhDs
[02:14:22.239] >> in the company,000
[02:14:24.320] employees.
[02:14:26.400] >> Which location?
[02:14:27.760] >> Uh I was at Huntsville, Alabama.
[02:14:29.840] >> Okay.
[02:14:30.480] >> Because I was supporting this NASA space
[02:14:32.320] nuclear propulsion program office. So uh
[02:14:35.119] I was only one of maybe a dozen, maybe
[02:14:37.440] two. I don't think it was more than two
[02:14:39.360] but definitely within two dozen PhD
[02:14:42.239] physicists in the whole country in the
[02:14:44.159] whole company and I'll have to tell you
[02:14:45.920] that not a single one of few of us were
[02:14:48.719] doing any physics we were doing
[02:14:50.960] engineering work
[02:14:51.679] >> and how many of you were trained in
[02:14:52.960] front trained in frontier theory
[02:14:56.000] >> frontier theory what do you mean
[02:14:58.159] >> standard model in GR
[02:14:59.920] >> oh I how far back from the front lines
[02:15:02.320] were you guys
[02:15:03.199] >> I knew those guys and none of them were
[02:15:05.840] some of them were trained in Astro
[02:15:07.840] dynamics. So, they know general
[02:15:09.520] relativity and Newtonian mechanics. Uh,
[02:15:12.639] I'm the only one I know of who's been
[02:15:14.239] trained on the standard model in GR. I
[02:15:16.560] don't I didn't know any of those other
[02:15:18.079] guys that were there's one guy at Blue
[02:15:20.159] Origin
[02:15:21.040] >> who went to my university, got his PhD
[02:15:23.599] in general relativity theory, University
[02:15:25.840] of Arizona,
[02:15:26.560] >> Tucson years after I got my doctorate
[02:15:29.360] and he wor and he's working as an
[02:15:31.040] engineer at Blue Origin.
[02:15:32.560] >> Okay, last question. I can't wrap my
[02:15:36.320] head around this. If I was facing an
[02:15:38.480] incursion in my airspace claiming
[02:15:41.760] craft that defy the laws of physics and
[02:15:43.920] I didn't have a single top physicist
[02:15:47.440] on my team, I would expect to be fired
[02:15:51.040] instantly.
[02:15:51.840] >> Oh, sure. But that's not how they think.
[02:15:54.079] They don't think in terms of that.
[02:15:55.599] They're thinking in terms of their
[02:15:56.880] bottom line. And their bottom line will
[02:16:00.239] not involve a theoretical physicist.
[02:16:02.719] They might have
[02:16:03.679] >> Sorry. Sorry. What? You have craft. The
[02:16:07.360] claim is you have
[02:16:08.560] >> I know they're engineers.
[02:16:09.520] >> Okay. But if you
[02:16:10.320] >> they're not thinking in terms of
[02:16:11.599] fundamental physics or something beyond
[02:16:13.840] the standard model or something beyond
[02:16:15.440] generality. They're thinking
[02:16:17.119] >> how are they doing on this project
[02:16:19.199] decades in the supposed project? How are
[02:16:21.520] they doing on it?
[02:16:22.719] >> What's their level of success?
[02:16:23.760] >> All I know is as of my knowledge
[02:16:25.440] >> if you're failing at something
[02:16:27.360] >> Yeah. They they have
[02:16:28.239] >> that requires new physics. You say defy
[02:16:30.480] the laws of physics. We have we can't
[02:16:32.240] make progress and we have no physicist.
[02:16:34.319] Yes, because they don't.
[02:16:34.960] >> David, this can't Eric, this can't this
[02:16:37.920] can't add up. It's it's a twoline proof.
[02:16:41.120] It defies the laws of physics. We
[02:16:43.439] haven't made progress. We have no
[02:16:45.599] physicists.
[02:16:47.519] >> Okay,
[02:16:47.760] >> if something defies the laws of physics,
[02:16:49.760] who do you call? I I know you ask any of
[02:16:54.160] us, any of us, write down 15 names of
[02:16:57.760] who you call if you had a craft that
[02:16:59.200] defied the laws of physics. Wait a
[02:17:00.719] second. 12 of those names, 10 of those
[02:17:03.359] names would be the same on everybody's
[02:17:05.200] list.
[02:17:05.679] >> Okay.
[02:17:07.760] the the the final thing I would say is
[02:17:10.639] if Halputoff was telling us that some
[02:17:13.040] physics has held whether it's even if
[02:17:15.280] it's just experimental physics you have
[02:17:17.519] a bunch of people over the last 70 years
[02:17:19.920] the foremost in my mind Towns and Brown
[02:17:22.800] and you know this uh Ningly at
[02:17:25.200] University of Alabama Huntsville saying
[02:17:27.359] that they're getting little weight
[02:17:28.479] reduction effects gravitational
[02:17:30.000] shielding
[02:17:30.479] >> that's wrong they didn't they were they
[02:17:32.319] were incompetent there is no weight
[02:17:34.000] reduction
[02:17:34.639] >> so simultaneously how's thing of being
[02:17:38.160] two chapters in my book on the Towns and
[02:17:40.240] Brown effect.
[02:17:41.040] >> But there's the lead electrostatic
[02:17:42.800] scientist from NASA at Cape Kennedy just
[02:17:44.800] left to start a private propellantless
[02:17:46.719] propulsion company and he says it's
[02:17:49.040] derivative of Towns and Brown's effect.
[02:17:51.519] >> Those older papers and that older
[02:17:52.960] subject matter um is probably valid for
[02:17:55.760] most of the point for most you know it's
[02:17:58.240] unfair to say that it's not. However,
[02:18:01.260] [clears throat] without a theory back
[02:18:02.319] then to describe it, it was hard for
[02:18:04.319] them to miniaturaturize it, to optimize
[02:18:06.800] it, all of those things you want to do
[02:18:08.319] to to make it a useful force.
[02:18:10.000] >> His name is Charles Buer
[02:18:11.599] >> talking science
[02:18:12.719] >> even though he's the electrostatics.
[02:18:14.240] Yeah.
[02:18:14.880] >> And then the the physics chair um who is
[02:18:17.599] the lead of Ning Le's department left to
[02:18:20.319] join her company, Larry Smalling.
[02:18:22.000] >> Yeah. But she was wrong and so was he.
[02:18:24.559] >> Okay.
[02:18:25.120] >> Okay. and and they made off with
[02:18:26.559] $400,000 in army research lab money and
[02:18:29.120] didn't produce a producible for it. They
[02:18:30.880] didn't deliver anything for that money.
[02:18:32.960] >> So the topological physics effect
[02:18:34.639] >> you talked to Travis Taylor he knew all
[02:18:36.479] of them. He knew England.
[02:18:37.679] >> So so the topological
[02:18:39.200] >> rotten terrible physicist. So the so the
[02:18:42.000] physics that are held in private
[02:18:43.439] aerospace, we just have to sort of guess
[02:18:45.439] like we there's there's no sense of what
[02:18:48.559] any of this stuff is, but they're also
[02:18:50.880] not putting any theoretical physicists,
[02:18:53.200] you know, like Eric's colleagues on any
[02:18:55.679] of this stuff. Like it it just feels
[02:18:57.040] sort of
[02:18:57.439] >> here's the thing. The government is
[02:18:59.200] going to tell the aerospace company we
[02:19:02.559] Okay, this is hypothe hypothetical, but
[02:19:04.639] this is how it works according to my two
[02:19:07.840] industry sources.
[02:19:09.840] Okay, the government says, "Here's the
[02:19:12.080] craft.
[02:19:13.760] We want to know how it works." The
[02:19:16.160] industry contractors say, "Okay, and
[02:19:19.280] they think in terms of engineering.
[02:19:22.160] >> We're going to we're not they're not
[02:19:23.439] going to do fundamental physics. They're
[02:19:24.800] not they might have experimental
[02:19:26.479] physics. It's not out of the realm to
[02:19:28.000] have an experimental physicist working
[02:19:29.599] there, but they're not theoretical guys.
[02:19:31.920] So, they'll have to know some theory,
[02:19:33.359] but they're mostly experiment."
[02:19:35.200] >> Hang on. Hang on. So, so they get the
[02:19:37.760] tasking that they've got to take apart a
[02:19:39.920] craft and they've got to figure out how
[02:19:42.479] it's made and how it's worked. That how
[02:19:44.719] it works. That's it. That's the tasking.
[02:19:47.599] So, that leaves out any not need for a
[02:19:50.800] theoretical physicist. They don't know
[02:19:52.479] that
[02:19:52.960] >> they would agree. Wait, wait. That that
[02:19:55.200] made absolutely zero sense.
[02:19:57.840] >> That's how they operate. That's
[02:19:59.040] >> No, no, no. You said bec but because of
[02:20:01.520] that that's why they don't no you
[02:20:03.840] absolutely need a theoretical physicist
[02:20:05.920] if you're going to take apart a device.
[02:20:07.840] >> I don't disagree but that's how they
[02:20:09.439] operate. That's what the program manager
[02:20:11.280] and the government says. So the program
[02:20:13.359] manager in the company's going to say
[02:20:14.720] okay here's our solution to that
[02:20:16.640] problem. So here's our bid. They get a
[02:20:19.600] soul source contract. Uh no there's no
[02:20:21.840] bid. It's the soul source contract. So
[02:20:23.760] they get the soul source contract and
[02:20:25.359] they've already laid out what the
[02:20:27.120] tasking is to be done on that contract.
[02:20:30.000] And the tasking is to be done that needs
[02:20:32.160] to be done is the engineering to take
[02:20:34.319] this thing apart piece by piece, reverse
[02:20:37.040] engineer it, put it back together again
[02:20:38.800] and try to figure out if they can make
[02:20:40.160] it work or not and understand how that
[02:20:42.399] happens. And uh that's all they do. They
[02:20:45.439] don't have tasking to hire a theoretical
[02:20:48.479] physicist to sit there and start
[02:20:50.720] thinking about the standard model beyond
[02:20:52.960] the standard model or anything. They
[02:20:54.399] don't go there. They don't go there.
[02:20:56.319] These are engineering companies. They're
[02:20:57.760] not universities. And they don't even
[02:21:00.399] aren't even allowed to talk to
[02:21:02.080] universities about this because of the
[02:21:04.240] compartmentalization is horrible.
[02:21:06.160] >> Sorry. If if an iPhone fell into the
[02:21:09.200] into the hands of a villager
[02:21:12.240] uh in some far-flung uh developing
[02:21:15.359] country, the odds of a cobbler or a
[02:21:19.439] carpenter figuring out how an iPhone
[02:21:21.520] worked is negligible.
[02:21:24.720] >> Exactly.
[02:21:25.359] >> Okay.
[02:21:25.920] >> Exactly.
[02:21:26.399] >> So, the same thing is true on your
[02:21:28.160] engineering. I mean, look, the Manhattan
[02:21:30.479] project was an engineering project.
[02:21:32.800] There was a deliverable. It was a
[02:21:34.479] device.
[02:21:36.479] >> The argument to have physicist
[02:21:38.640] >> for both projects. You're not giving me
[02:21:40.800] any understanding of why there were
[02:21:42.800] physicists in one and not the other.
[02:21:44.399] Wouldn't the same even if you had a
[02:21:46.399] wrong
[02:21:47.600] >> Sorry. It just doesn't make sense,
[02:21:49.680] Derek. That's just what all the evidence
[02:21:52.880] goes down to. Um comes down to I should
[02:21:55.920] say it's I I haven't met well I asked my
[02:22:00.319] sort my senior VP said oh we didn't have
[02:22:02.319] any physicists. They had Bernie Hush
[02:22:04.640] working in that company. He is a
[02:22:06.399] physicist. He's an astrophysicist. He
[02:22:08.160] was a Max Plunk Institute fellow. He was
[02:22:10.720] a fellow of that company and he did
[02:22:13.040] astrophysics work because that company
[02:22:14.720] built spacecraft for NASA. But an
[02:22:17.439] alternate hypothesis is that this is a
[02:22:21.040] dummy program masking something. And the
[02:22:24.080] last thing that you would want ever on
[02:22:26.160] such a program is a physicist. because
[02:22:28.960] the physicist is going to tear right
[02:22:30.880] through this thing and say
[02:22:33.840] there is no Bfield Brown effect here.
[02:22:35.680] Let me show you you know whatever. So my
[02:22:38.080] my my my claim is
[02:22:40.640] >> that avoidance
[02:22:42.640] of
[02:22:44.240] physicists might be necessary to keep a
[02:22:47.200] dummy program going just the way the
[02:22:49.520] presence of physicists was necessary to
[02:22:51.680] get a deliverable for Hiroshima and
[02:22:53.520] Nagasaki.
[02:22:54.720] >> Interesting. Okay. I I just on another
[02:22:57.520] note, the five people I knew of at that
[02:22:59.520] one legacy company,
[02:23:01.359] >> two of whom I met with and dined with
[02:23:03.359] and met and one of whom I met with
[02:23:05.439] routinely through the OSAP and after uh
[02:23:10.000] >> so the woman was a mathematician but she
[02:23:13.600] worked as as a chief of security.
[02:23:16.399] There we go. The other one was a
[02:23:18.000] material scientist. Okay, that's a for
[02:23:20.080] that's a discipline in engineering. The
[02:23:22.160] other three were engineers. One of them
[02:23:24.880] was involved with the development of the
[02:23:26.880] F-17 fighter and I don't know what the
[02:23:30.080] other guys roles were, but they were all
[02:23:32.160] engineers. That's what they were
[02:23:33.600] described to me. And I said, "No
[02:23:34.880] physicists." He said, "No, not really."
[02:23:36.960] >> It's insane. Both of you guys, what do
[02:23:38.640] you hope for the next year or two of
[02:23:40.640] disclosure? I mean, I think it's clear
[02:23:42.880] that you think the the brain dead way in
[02:23:45.040] which this is run without theoretical
[02:23:46.479] physicist. I would like I would like to
[02:23:48.399] meet adults on this project who are not
[02:23:51.359] grooved into thinking that we can just
[02:23:53.439] repeat things that never made any sense
[02:23:56.000] into the future as if they make sense.
[02:23:58.160] The idea that we are being visited um by
[02:24:01.680] crafts that dominate our airspace, that
[02:24:04.560] we cannot understand, do not know their
[02:24:06.800] origin, that defy the laws of physics,
[02:24:08.880] and we avoid the one specialty that
[02:24:10.880] could help us at all costs, and that
[02:24:12.960] this makes sense to anyone is is a fairy
[02:24:15.920] tale that should not be I I think that a
[02:24:19.200] mentally golden retriever
[02:24:20.960] should not repeat this fair. [laughter]
[02:24:23.120] >> Doc Dr. Davis, what what do you hope for
[02:24:26.000] over the next few years? Well, I'm I'm
[02:24:28.080] actually uh what's the word? I'm
[02:24:32.319] don't want to say I'm uh in uh I'm
[02:24:35.439] looking for a negative term here and
[02:24:37.280] it's I'm I'm not enthusiast. Well, it's
[02:24:41.359] not enthusiastic. That's not the word. I
[02:24:43.760] think the presidential emergency action
[02:24:45.520] directives are so strict. They were
[02:24:48.000] instituted in the White House admin uh
[02:24:49.920] in the Eisenhower White House
[02:24:51.280] administration. So Eisenhower instituted
[02:24:54.399] that and that's been carried forward on
[02:24:56.479] many different topics but specifically
[02:24:58.479] Jim Seivan and I know that they were
[02:25:00.080] instituted for this topic that we've
[02:25:02.000] been discussing. So I I uh am not hope I
[02:25:06.479] guess that's the word I'm looking for.
[02:25:07.600] I'm not hopeful that there will be
[02:25:10.319] meaningful disclosure uh because of the
[02:25:13.040] presidential emergency action directives
[02:25:15.120] and I'm also not hopeful because I don't
[02:25:17.120] think that this topic has risen to a
[02:25:19.359] level of urgency in the White House as
[02:25:21.600] the Epstein files have and the
[02:25:25.120] retribution that Trump wants to execute
[02:25:28.399] against his political enemies. Uh those
[02:25:31.280] are those are at the top and he's got
[02:25:33.120] his economic agenda. He's got his
[02:25:34.800] foreign policy agenda, tariffs and all
[02:25:36.720] that disclosure of UAPs at this level.
[02:25:40.800] It's just not rising to the top.
[02:25:42.800] >> That's your prognosis. But your hope is
[02:25:44.720] that we get full transparency on this
[02:25:47.520] issue outside national security and I
[02:25:51.439] >> could get the keys to the door with how
[02:25:53.760] and we can walk in and we can talk to
[02:25:55.520] people and say where the are your
[02:25:56.880] physicists and uh or we can say we're
[02:26:00.240] going to volunteer our time or you can
[02:26:02.000] pay us to work for you. Uh I would love
[02:26:05.200] for both of us with Hal and some others
[02:26:07.359] to be able to go in and take a look at
[02:26:09.439] the hardware, see it ourselves. I've
[02:26:11.520] I've I've heard physical descriptions
[02:26:13.200] from Jim Latsky um
[02:26:15.359] >> who said that he breached the hole and
[02:26:17.120] walked inside of a UFO.
[02:26:18.800] >> Yeah.
[02:26:19.040] >> And you believe him?
[02:26:20.319] >> Oh, yeah. Because there's no reason not
[02:26:21.920] to.
[02:26:22.319] >> You told us because you were allowed to
[02:26:24.080] tell us that our government has a UFO in
[02:26:26.720] its possession and has been able to
[02:26:28.479] access the inside of it, right?
[02:26:31.439] >> Yes. I mean, when you work with people
[02:26:34.000] like that, we know that we're not
[02:26:36.160] trained to lie and make up just
[02:26:38.479] for the sake of lying and making up
[02:26:39.840] Uh, no, we are people with
[02:26:42.399] clearances. We are responsible people.
[02:26:44.479] Jim Lowsky was a uh missiles engineer, I
[02:26:47.359] believe he was. Uh, so, and there are
[02:26:49.760] other missiles engineers I knew who
[02:26:51.840] worked at the DIA back in the 80s and
[02:26:55.359] no, back in Yeah. 80s, 90s, and 2000s
[02:26:58.080] until they retired. So, there's a lot of
[02:27:00.000] engineers in the DIA. Not too many
[02:27:01.840] physicists that I ever ran across. So
[02:27:04.080] anyway, it'd be nice. But so my point is
[02:27:06.720] Jim Lowsky wouldn't say that just just
[02:27:09.120] to pull it out of the air and throw
[02:27:10.640] people off. He's telling you the truth.
[02:27:12.080] >> That was during his time.
[02:27:12.960] >> This is exactly the truth and this is
[02:27:14.319] exactly what he experienced working at
[02:27:16.000] the DIA at some point. Uh I don't know
[02:27:19.920] whether this happened during the OSAP
[02:27:21.760] because he certainly didn't tell us. All
[02:27:23.760] of us in the OSAP, Keller, Bigalow,
[02:27:26.160] Puty, myself, we never heard this come
[02:27:29.520] from Mikowski. Was this at Locked or was
[02:27:32.800] when he stepped?
[02:27:33.359] >> No, no, I don't know where it was. It's
[02:27:34.720] just that
[02:27:35.200] >> you don't know where he stepped.
[02:27:36.560] >> You never He didn't say in his book. I
[02:27:37.840] don't know if you've read the book or
[02:27:38.800] not.
[02:27:39.280] >> I haven't read the book.
[02:27:40.160] >> Okay. So, he didn't say where he went
[02:27:42.080] into that craft or who had it,
[02:27:44.240] >> but I have a general idea based on
[02:27:46.720] conversations I've had with Jay
[02:27:48.000] Stratton. But the point being is that he
[02:27:50.800] was able to get it, touch it. I also
[02:27:52.880] know a four-star general from the
[02:27:54.479] Clinton administration who was able to
[02:27:56.080] go there, use his authority, his power
[02:27:58.800] uh to go see the program and get inside,
[02:28:01.439] talk to the program uh employees and
[02:28:04.000] leadership, touch the crowd, look inside
[02:28:06.560] the crowd. So that's two. And then
[02:28:08.479] there's Admiral Wilson who said, "I
[02:28:10.960] tried to get in the program. I met the
[02:28:12.720] program manager, the corporate security
[02:28:14.479] chief, the legal counsel, and the chief
[02:28:18.000] scientist, and they told me after a lot
[02:28:20.000] of resistance and arguing, they finally
[02:28:21.680] said, "This is what you're looking for.
[02:28:23.359] It is a crash retrieval, nine human
[02:28:25.359] intelligence, non-human technology,
[02:28:28.000] off-world, but we can't let you in
[02:28:30.240] because you don't have a need to know
[02:28:32.640] beyond that." Yeah.
[02:28:33.760] >> You know, it's like, oh, but that's how
[02:28:35.600] it works. I mean, that really does work
[02:28:37.120] that way. The head of the NRO doesn't
[02:28:39.040] know what the hell a lot of the stuff
[02:28:40.319] that's going on beneath him because
[02:28:41.680] they're wooaps or saps or hidden SCIs.
[02:28:44.560] He He doesn't have a need to know unless
[02:28:46.800] there's a reason that he has to and then
[02:28:50.160] they have to brief him.
[02:28:51.920] >> On that mind-blowing but also baffling
[02:28:54.800] note. Uh and I I'm glad we ended in a
[02:28:56.800] sort of you know collegial way. We share
[02:28:59.040] mutual hope that we can we can you know
[02:29:00.960] bash down the door. But I love this
[02:29:02.960] guy's mind. I love the way he was going
[02:29:04.640] in the last hour or so. Yeah,
[02:29:06.720] >> this is uh this has really opened my
[02:29:09.600] mind a lot more my eyes on some things I
[02:29:11.760] want to start looking at now. Thank you
[02:29:13.200] for that.
[02:29:13.600] >> Thanks, Doc.
[02:29:14.160] >> Thank you, sir.
[02:29:16.319] >> That was an interesting conversation,
[02:29:18.160] >> wasn't it? [laughter]
[02:29:19.200] >> Yeah. What's your I don't know. Do you
[02:29:23.040] have kind of a gestalt sense coming away
[02:29:25.439] from that as far as an update where you
[02:29:28.160] were before the conversation uh where
[02:29:31.040] you are now? So, first of all, it's
[02:29:33.760] interesting to see somebody who believes
[02:29:36.000] in aliens and and and craft in some deep
[02:29:39.840] level and doesn't believe in going
[02:29:43.359] beyond the theories that are
[02:29:46.960] uh blessed with holy water by the
[02:29:49.040] physics community. And so,
[02:29:52.319] you know, I take general relativity and
[02:29:54.319] standard model quite seriously, but he
[02:29:56.479] takes it almost as a constraint.
[02:30:00.319] So I think one of the things I didn't
[02:30:02.000] understand is that the physics output is
[02:30:06.080] rec seems almost recreational and it
[02:30:08.560] seems like what is the closest you could
[02:30:11.680] get to science fiction using known
[02:30:13.840] science
[02:30:16.399] >> right?
[02:30:16.960] >> Yeah. And the idea is that it's all
[02:30:19.280] extremely
[02:30:21.120] implausible
[02:30:23.040] vague scenario like if we could come up
[02:30:24.880] with huge amounts of matter and energy
[02:30:27.120] then we could do this uh alubiary
[02:30:30.640] space-time solution or um you know maybe
[02:30:35.200] we could engineer an Einstein Rosen
[02:30:38.399] bridge you know and like again I I heard
[02:30:42.319] somebody say this thing about um maybe
[02:30:45.680] the black hole information paradox is a
[02:30:48.160] key that because it doesn't fully make
[02:30:50.399] sense that that's where the technology
[02:30:52.160] is and you should use quantum gravity as
[02:30:54.000] a guide. Maybe you go into a black hole
[02:30:56.240] and you somehow get shot out some some
[02:30:58.560] someplace at a speed that you couldn't
[02:31:00.399] imagine otherwise. Whatever these things
[02:31:02.880] are,
[02:31:04.479] this is garbage. I hate to say it that
[02:31:06.960] way, but it's not that he's
[02:31:10.720] he maybe he's doing the best that you
[02:31:12.479] can do assuming general relativity and
[02:31:14.399] the standard model trying to reproduce
[02:31:16.720] something that clearly goes beyond it if
[02:31:18.640] it exists at all. Another thing is he
[02:31:21.840] said I was sort of surprised that he
[02:31:23.920] wasn't nearly as read in
[02:31:27.120] at a primary level. Um so that he's able
[02:31:30.640] to talk because
[02:31:32.880] he didn't actually make primary contact
[02:31:35.680] with this.
[02:31:36.399] >> Well, that's the thing we were just
[02:31:38.160] commenting on off camera which is like
[02:31:40.080] this funny dynamic of everybody seems to
[02:31:42.880] be circling around this program and
[02:31:45.280] nobody seems [laughter] to be in the
[02:31:46.800] program. It's a little like the Epstein
[02:31:49.040] list or something. Yeah.
[02:31:50.560] >> Which is not at all, you know, we'll
[02:31:52.399] stop the analogy there, but it is this
[02:31:54.399] weird thing where it's like, you know,
[02:31:56.479] uh, no one no one no one's gone to the
[02:31:58.479] island, but like, you know, or not me
[02:32:00.720] rather, but everybody else has or
[02:32:02.160] whatever, and these are everybody's
[02:32:03.439] demonic or whatever. And in in this
[02:32:05.600] case, it's this weird thing where
[02:32:07.200] everybody's this Mr. Smith goes to
[02:32:08.880] Washington character who stumbled into
[02:32:10.720] this in this sort of hapless way. uh and
[02:32:13.600] they have no idea how the thing actually
[02:32:16.479] sort of functions and works and that
[02:32:18.240] allows them to talk about it
[02:32:19.439] >> or even if there's a thing as described
[02:32:23.200] at all. I mean, I'm convinced that
[02:32:25.359] there's a thing
[02:32:27.120] >> and it has a boundary and it has some
[02:32:29.680] structure and there's some money in it,
[02:32:31.359] whatever.
[02:32:32.880] But I don't know that what's inside that
[02:32:35.920] container is what is indicated on its
[02:32:40.960] surface to the extent that anyone can
[02:32:42.640] even see the boundary.
[02:32:43.920] >> Yeah. Well, that's a question is like,
[02:32:45.840] you know, does the tip of the iceberg
[02:32:47.600] look like is it actually an iceberg? And
[02:32:50.560] are we looking at a tip of the iceberg
[02:32:52.160] where you can say uh we have a crash
[02:32:54.640] retrieval reverse engineering program,
[02:32:56.800] but that's actually some sort of
[02:32:58.080] intelligence slight of hand and in fact
[02:33:00.560] the body uh or a structure that is
[02:33:03.520] underneath, you know, submerged in the
[02:33:05.520] water is obfiscated and that changes
[02:33:08.880] everything.
[02:33:10.160] >> Yeah. Yeah, it's like you have a kelp
[02:33:11.359] forest which has a top which looks like
[02:33:13.520] an iceberg, [laughter]
[02:33:16.160] >> you know, something like that. And so
[02:33:17.920] >> I was trying to figure out the right
[02:33:19.359] analogy.
[02:33:19.840] >> Well, there isn't a good one.
[02:33:20.800] >> There isn't a good one.
[02:33:21.840] >> Yeah.
[02:33:22.160] >> Yeah.
[02:33:22.479] >> And you have unreliable narrators to
[02:33:24.319] contend with as well. And you have
[02:33:26.319] unprepared ontologies to contend with as
[02:33:28.720] well. So you have these voices giving
[02:33:30.880] you information. You are Eric Davis in
[02:33:33.760] this situation. You have these witnesses
[02:33:35.600] or these sources giving you information,
[02:33:37.680] but they are a filter unto themselves.
[02:33:39.520] They're an ontology filter and they're a
[02:33:41.840] reliability filter. How much can you
[02:33:44.560] totally bank on what they're saying and
[02:33:46.560] use it to build a model for whatever is
[02:33:48.319] hiding in this boundary?
[02:33:51.040] So one of the questions that we we were
[02:33:54.000] discussing is if you believe in the
[02:33:56.560] legacy program and I think all three of
[02:33:59.760] us are in a position where we've talked
[02:34:03.120] to too many different people with
[02:34:05.359] different backgrounds that are talking
[02:34:08.080] about a something in common.
[02:34:10.800] And you know, in my worst fear, it's the
[02:34:13.840] jackaloupe where everybody sort of
[02:34:15.200] believes the jackalopes are real. Um,
[02:34:17.840] because there's an industry around a
[02:34:19.520] myth. Um,
[02:34:22.720] but assuming this thing is real, because
[02:34:24.319] I can't imagine how you would fake it.
[02:34:27.040] What is real is a program with a
[02:34:29.280] boundary.
[02:34:30.880] So there's something where you're inside
[02:34:32.640] the program and there's something where
[02:34:34.000] you're outside the program and people
[02:34:35.359] have to go back in and out unless you
[02:34:37.600] imagine that there's a secret facility
[02:34:39.760] which you enter once and you never leave
[02:34:42.560] just physically.
[02:34:46.800] This means almost certainly this thing
[02:34:48.640] is hidden in plain sight. I don't mean
[02:34:50.800] to say that there may not be deep
[02:34:52.319] underground facilities on our bases. I
[02:34:54.560] don't mean to say that but people have
[02:34:57.120] to go home.
[02:34:58.720] >> Right.
[02:34:59.439] >> Right.
[02:35:00.479] And
[02:35:02.720] you have to have plumbers
[02:35:05.040] and you have to have housekeeping staff.
[02:35:08.312] [clears throat]
[02:35:10.560] I don't understand
[02:35:14.319] how this thing exists. Well, on that
[02:35:17.359] note, you attempted at some
[02:35:20.640] instantiation of at least the
[02:35:22.399] theoretical physics component of the
[02:35:25.359] whatever we calling that this UAP legacy
[02:35:28.000] program
[02:35:29.040] >> at Renaissance Technologies. And I
[02:35:32.000] thought it was interesting that uh in
[02:35:34.479] 2022 NASA had this, you know, UFO review
[02:35:38.240] panel.
[02:35:39.280] >> 16 researchers will spend the next 9
[02:35:41.920] months studying the UFOs. They will use
[02:35:45.040] unclassified data in their research and
[02:35:47.359] release a report to the public next
[02:35:49.120] year. Now, this follows the Pentagon's
[02:35:51.040] announcement in July that it would
[02:35:52.640] create an office to track reports of
[02:35:55.520] UAPs or UFOs and they were seeing, you
[02:35:58.800] know, if there's anything to all of this
[02:36:00.800] stuff and they were they were looking
[02:36:02.000] into it in an official capacity. And the
[02:36:04.399] person overseeing that panel is this
[02:36:06.399] guy, David Spurggle. Of course, Jim
[02:36:08.319] Simon started Renaissance Technologies
[02:36:10.240] and Spurgle was head of his foundation.
[02:36:12.880] So I find that to be very interesting
[02:36:14.560] overlap.
[02:36:15.359] >> So there's this concept in Washington of
[02:36:17.439] steady hands
[02:36:20.080] and steady hands. I never really found
[02:36:24.399] all the different meanings for it, but
[02:36:25.840] one meaning for it was who can we trust
[02:36:29.760] when the pressure gets insanely high to
[02:36:33.280] do what we expect needs to be done,
[02:36:35.760] which may involve obfuscating, lying,
[02:36:38.560] evading, [sighs]
[02:36:40.560] pitifying, all of the things that don't
[02:36:42.960] have to do with disclosure.
[02:36:45.920] The world of steady hands is often a
[02:36:48.399] very small world. So they reuse the
[02:36:50.640] same. You'll notice that the same people
[02:36:53.280] in Washington DC some somehow show up on
[02:36:56.160] eight different issues. They're like
[02:36:58.354] [sighs and gasps]
[02:36:59.120] because the government knows that they
[02:37:00.800] can trust that person in a crisis not to
[02:37:03.920] not to buckle. They've sort of given
[02:37:06.080] their life for the team.
[02:37:08.720] >> Would Fouchy be sort of analogous?
[02:37:11.280] >> Sure. Right. the idea that you're going
[02:37:14.160] to stand up to Rand Paul in an open
[02:37:18.160] hearing and you're not going to call
[02:37:19.840] your call for your mommy and you're not
[02:37:22.240] going to say, "Okay, I admit it. There
[02:37:23.680] was a whole thing and we screwed up and
[02:37:25.040] I feel terrible." Whatever.
[02:37:27.920] And so maybe the idea is we're dealing
[02:37:31.359] with the steady hands phenomena
[02:37:34.399] >> that you need people to deny
[02:37:37.439] the obvious. You need people to spend
[02:37:40.640] credibility and there are very few
[02:37:42.880] people who want to do that job.
[02:37:45.680] >> One other connection I was thinking of
[02:37:48.399] speaking of you know the intersection
[02:37:50.800] between
[02:37:52.399] uh institutions that are well respected
[02:37:55.280] that nobody can deny have power in the
[02:37:58.000] country like the Jasons which uh you
[02:38:01.120] know they meet in Santa Barbara. It's
[02:38:03.280] the elite of the elite when it comes to
[02:38:05.439] uh military-industrial complex and
[02:38:07.600] specifically figuring out kind of it's
[02:38:10.160] frontier physics, but it's also
[02:38:11.439] weaponization
[02:38:12.960] uh uh uh you know um and
[02:38:16.479] so you have that committee that you
[02:38:18.240] brought up and then you have the UFO
[02:38:21.040] world which seems kind of more quacky on
[02:38:22.800] the face of it and you have this guy Ron
[02:38:25.280] Pandalfi who seems to be a part of the
[02:38:27.280] Jason advisory committee um but also
[02:38:30.399] seems to show up in UFO world
[02:38:32.080] constantly.
[02:38:33.280] And so I think it's really interesting
[02:38:35.520] as a heristic to look at the
[02:38:37.120] intersection between quacky UFO world
[02:38:40.560] and more institutional undeniable
[02:38:43.359] military-industrial complex.
[02:38:45.920] Well, that was why the the golden age of
[02:38:47.840] general relativity was such an important
[02:38:50.560] uh thing to mine because that was the
[02:38:53.600] last major moment
[02:38:56.319] where the lunatic quacks and the super
[02:38:59.760] respectable people were seeing each
[02:39:01.520] other after hours for cocktails,
[02:39:04.319] right? And
[02:39:06.640] you know there's a different version of
[02:39:08.000] this maybe where um David Kaiser I think
[02:39:12.319] wrote this book how the hippie saved
[02:39:14.240] physics about what gets done at eelin
[02:39:17.439] you know with entanglement and
[02:39:20.399] uh bell inequalities and all that kind
[02:39:22.000] of stuff. So I think that there's this
[02:39:24.640] weird way in which the quack world
[02:39:29.040] and the respectable world are are always
[02:39:32.640] intermingled and we don't really admit
[02:39:34.800] to this. Uh I' I've called the passion
[02:39:40.080] for let's say string theoretic physics
[02:39:43.200] and other official uh mass delusions
[02:39:46.880] karkarks which is crank spelled
[02:39:48.479] backwards. A kark is a crank inside of
[02:39:52.000] the institutions
[02:39:53.680] who would be ridiculed for their belief
[02:39:56.800] structure but for the fact that they are
[02:39:58.720] upholding the institution.
[02:40:01.280] Right? And so we have a and by the way
[02:40:04.160] the mass delusion isn't that string
[02:40:05.520] theory might be interesting. It's that
[02:40:08.240] 42 years in you're still not seeing this
[02:40:12.240] what do we have wrong? Does anyone else
[02:40:14.240] have an idea? There is no conference
[02:40:17.600] that brings together the critics and the
[02:40:19.680] proponents to try to get to ground
[02:40:21.280] truth.
[02:40:22.479] >> Well, you have an idea about you mean
[02:40:24.720] you mentioned this in the interview. You
[02:40:26.080] said, you know, we have been beating
[02:40:28.160] Einstein to death trying to kind of
[02:40:30.319] quantize gravity. Uh you have an idea
[02:40:33.439] about gauging gravity and how, you know,
[02:40:36.640] maybe we we fell into the kind of
[02:40:39.359] quantum gravity culde-sac when we could
[02:40:41.520] have thought about gravity in this other
[02:40:43.200] context. Well, so this this is a it's a
[02:40:45.840] very strange point. Um, so I just turned
[02:40:49.200] 60 and
[02:40:50.960] >> happy birthday.
[02:40:51.680] >> Well, thank you very much. What I
[02:40:54.720] realize about myself is that I am the
[02:40:56.960] youngest person
[02:40:59.600] to see the transition between old style
[02:41:02.880] physics and the string physics in terms
[02:41:05.200] of the community. So I got to college in
[02:41:08.240] 1982. I started going to seminars
[02:41:10.880] essentially immediately which was
[02:41:12.080] unusual and I was 16 at the time. So
[02:41:14.319] that was my claim to saying that that's
[02:41:16.240] why I'm the youngest. Things change in '
[02:41:18.479] 84. So there's really only 82 83 and I
[02:41:22.000] happened by complete accident to be at
[02:41:23.840] the first lecture of Ed Whitten on
[02:41:25.600] string theory at the University of
[02:41:27.120] Pennsylvania in 1983
[02:41:30.000] which I didn't know until very recently
[02:41:31.760] that that my memory actually is because
[02:41:34.319] I fell by accident into the beginning.
[02:41:39.280] They changed the entire culture of
[02:41:41.120] theoretical physics and there's nothing
[02:41:42.960] they can do to hide it. If you go back
[02:41:45.840] to research articles before
[02:41:49.200] uh 1984, you see an entirely different
[02:41:52.560] culture of inquiry as to what are the
[02:41:54.240] problems of physics? What might we try
[02:41:55.840] to do to solve them?
[02:41:58.080] and quantum gravity was just thrust down
[02:42:02.560] everybody's throat as the holy grail
[02:42:06.720] from 1984 to87 and by the time of ' 87
[02:42:10.000] everybody had accepted this. So what you
[02:42:12.160] did is you retconed a story where nobody
[02:42:15.840] mentions the phrase quantum gravity
[02:42:17.520] until 1972.
[02:42:20.880] And you say well that's always been the
[02:42:22.800] holy grail ever since uh gravity in
[02:42:25.520] general relativity in 1915 and the
[02:42:27.600] quantum let's say by 1928 when you have
[02:42:30.319] quantum electronamics were both realized
[02:42:32.560] to have this kind of incompatibility.
[02:42:35.680] So if the incompatibility between the
[02:42:37.920] two is real but it's not really quantum
[02:42:40.399] gravity, what is it?
[02:42:43.040] So what I said was
[02:42:46.240] most people don't realize that due to
[02:42:48.080] work of Jim Simons and Cen Yang which
[02:42:52.319] got written up as Wooyang as if Simons
[02:42:54.960] was woo
[02:42:56.880] um we know that underneath the standard
[02:43:00.240] model is a classical geometric structure
[02:43:03.840] and we don't talk about the classical
[02:43:06.560] differential geometric nature of the
[02:43:08.960] standard model
[02:43:11.040] um and And that that is the subject of
[02:43:13.120] the Wuyang dictionary. So that
[02:43:15.760] unearthing of a geometric origin for the
[02:43:18.960] particles and fields that are not
[02:43:21.280] gravity but all the all the quantum
[02:43:23.040] fields
[02:43:24.640] uh is a very important clue that that
[02:43:27.439] geometry has a property which is that it
[02:43:29.920] is gauged which means that you can keep
[02:43:33.359] yourself from being fooled that many
[02:43:36.000] different versions you know that problem
[02:43:38.800] with the elephant with the blind men
[02:43:40.560] going around and it's all one elephant
[02:43:44.319] And the blind men aren't wandering
[02:43:45.760] around the elephant stupidly. They're
[02:43:47.359] just staying in one place. So a gauge
[02:43:49.439] orbit would be let's get all of the
[02:43:51.520] information from all of these people and
[02:43:53.520] decide that it's one elephant and
[02:43:54.960] they're just looking at it from
[02:43:56.240] different perspectives.
[02:43:58.080] So it's kind of a unity of knowledge
[02:43:59.760] thing. General relativity can't be
[02:44:01.920] gauged.
[02:44:03.760] Now there's a lie that says well that
[02:44:05.760] it's a type of gauge theory because
[02:44:07.279] there's a different kind of symmetry
[02:44:08.800] which has nothing to do with gauging
[02:44:12.640] called uh general coordinate invariance
[02:44:15.279] or diffmorphism invariance. So we make
[02:44:18.080] up a story to pretend that Einstein's
[02:44:20.560] theory can be gauged and it can't. And
[02:44:23.680] so now you have this weird question. Why
[02:44:26.000] did Ed Whitten tell us that the
[02:44:27.359] incompatibility between this
[02:44:30.479] the standard model and general
[02:44:31.680] relativity was that one was fully
[02:44:33.200] quantum and the other never quite grew
[02:44:34.800] up and that we had to grow up general
[02:44:37.200] relativity.
[02:44:39.520] >> So general relativity and the standard
[02:44:41.200] model have two separate attributes.
[02:44:43.200] Einstein could do two things that the
[02:44:45.439] standard model cannot. He these things
[02:44:48.800] are called contraction where you take
[02:44:50.560] two indices on either side of a
[02:44:52.240] separating barrier called a tensor
[02:44:54.319] product and you get them to mate uh and
[02:44:57.439] pair off.
[02:44:59.840] So he contracted the remanian curvature
[02:45:02.319] to get the reachi curvature. He
[02:45:03.680] contracted that to get scalar curvature.
[02:45:05.600] He spun the scalar curvature around 180
[02:45:08.399] degrees. Plugged it back into the
[02:45:09.760] formula and got rid of this vile
[02:45:11.680] curvature. Whatever that operation was
[02:45:13.680] that was the central idea of general
[02:45:15.279] relativity.
[02:45:18.160] There is no ability to take the full
[02:45:19.840] curvature tensors that occur in the
[02:45:21.600] standard model and break them up into
[02:45:23.520] components.
[02:45:25.040] You can't do this contraction gate. And
[02:45:27.920] the other thing Einstein had that the
[02:45:29.600] standard model didn't is that there's a
[02:45:31.359] central reference object called the
[02:45:33.200] levichevida connection and there's no
[02:45:35.120] analog for that as in the connections
[02:45:37.840] that give us photons and W and Z
[02:45:40.080] particles and gluons.
[02:45:42.560] So in the case of the standard model,
[02:45:47.359] you've got if if my arm here is
[02:45:50.479] spacetime and this is the data of the
[02:45:52.960] particles, the data of the particles can
[02:45:55.600] move around without moving spaceime.
[02:45:59.600] In general relativity,
[02:46:01.760] if you think about this as the xy plane,
[02:46:03.920] moving the x-axis affects the y axis.
[02:46:07.840] Okay,
[02:46:11.120] the incompatibility between the
[02:46:12.960] advantages of those two different
[02:46:14.479] pictures, gauge equivalence in the case
[02:46:17.200] of the standard model and contraction
[02:46:19.279] and a specified levy Jita connection
[02:46:22.560] that difference
[02:46:24.720] gives two sets of advantages to two
[02:46:26.640] different theories. Now my work the
[02:46:28.800] reason it's called geometric unity
[02:46:30.160] nobody ever asks that question really is
[02:46:32.960] that I said are there any places where
[02:46:34.560] you get to use the advantages of both
[02:46:36.479] systems
[02:46:38.319] and the answer turns out to be well
[02:46:40.560] certainly in general it won't work
[02:46:43.359] but for some completely absurdly narrow
[02:46:46.000] class of theories you get all the
[02:46:48.319] benefits of both system and then you
[02:46:50.720] check the particle table of the standard
[02:46:53.120] model and you're exactly in that freak
[02:46:55.200] class.
[02:46:57.680] >> So like how how can you not devote your
[02:46:59.680] life to that fact? I just don't even
[02:47:01.520] understand it. Um, so that thing is
[02:47:05.439] having to do with the fact that we
[02:47:08.399] didn't gauge
[02:47:10.399] gravity properly. And there's old work
[02:47:12.560] about this with Einstein and Cartan,
[02:47:15.040] with McDow and Mansuri,
[02:47:17.680] with a bunch of other people who've had
[02:47:20.080] versions of this idea,
[02:47:22.560] but it all got blown away by quantum
[02:47:24.880] gravity.
[02:47:27.200] >> Do you think that was by design or
[02:47:29.040] emergent?
[02:47:32.560] It sounds insane to say by design, but
[02:47:36.000] let me give you something that is
[02:47:37.680] insane.
[02:47:39.520] Although modern people won't see it as
[02:47:41.439] such. It is insane to spend 42 years
[02:47:45.520] under the spell of a group of people you
[02:47:48.560] call leaders who stagnated a field.
[02:47:53.279] In general, you have to ask the
[02:47:55.520] question, why is no one allowed to say
[02:47:58.640] what is going on with David Gross, Lenny
[02:48:00.720] Suskin, Edward Whitten,
[02:48:05.120] Andy Stinger?
[02:48:07.840] Why are these people still our leading
[02:48:10.319] physicists?
[02:48:11.600] >> I mean, this program failed. It's not
[02:48:13.439] the first failed program. We had a
[02:48:15.120] program associated with um with Reggie
[02:48:19.680] called the Reggie Calculus that was
[02:48:21.279] supposed to do great things and didn't
[02:48:22.720] work. There was a guy named Jeff Chu who
[02:48:25.040] had a bootstrap program and the Smatrix
[02:48:28.399] thing that didn't work. We've had lots
[02:48:30.479] of ideas that don't work and it's part
[02:48:32.160] of the game. And it's not a question of
[02:48:33.760] these are bad people, but they they
[02:48:35.840] failed scientifically.
[02:48:38.000] We can't say that. We can't say that we
[02:48:42.399] are slavishly devoted to making sure
[02:48:44.960] that we don't offend our leaders and
[02:48:47.359] we're going to insult everyone else and
[02:48:49.840] literally we're just going to
[02:48:50.800] professionally insult everyone who's
[02:48:53.200] been saying for 42 years this is not
[02:48:55.920] sensible. You saw what happened with
[02:48:57.520] Eric is I sort of had to say you know
[02:49:01.439] none of these ideas are remotely
[02:49:02.960] plausible that you're exploring. It
[02:49:04.960] wasn't personal. It wasn't mean. He sort
[02:49:07.760] of said, "Yeah, I know that now,
[02:49:10.640] but you can kind of tell at the
[02:49:12.319] beginning none of this is going to
[02:49:13.600] work."
[02:49:14.720] >> And so, both in string theory and in
[02:49:17.840] what he's doing, which is accepting that
[02:49:21.120] craft exists and are retrieved and can
[02:49:23.120] do miraculous things and the constraints
[02:49:26.080] are he takes for himself. I'm not going
[02:49:28.080] to challenge the standard model of
[02:49:29.279] general relativity. What's the closest I
[02:49:31.680] can get to science fiction from known
[02:49:34.160] science fact?
[02:49:36.160] And the answer is you're a million miles
[02:49:37.760] away, buddy. There's no you're not even
[02:49:39.439] you're not in the right zip code.
[02:49:41.760] >> Is your sense that there is a vital core
[02:49:45.439] that does have either geometric unity or
[02:49:49.359] some frameworks that are closer to
[02:49:51.439] ontological truth than general
[02:49:53.520] relativity and quantum field theory? You
[02:49:56.240] know,
[02:49:56.479] >> you can't ask me because my my feeling
[02:49:58.080] is I wouldn't have spent the same 42
[02:50:00.160] years on geometric unity
[02:50:02.240] >> if I wasn't pretty confident that this
[02:50:06.000] is this is right. Right.
[02:50:07.359] >> Okay. So, so then the question would be,
[02:50:09.439] do you think that somebody else or some
[02:50:11.760] other entity on the inside of all of
[02:50:14.960] this? Because what's interesting is you
[02:50:16.880] have a similar thing going on in UFO
[02:50:18.960] world as what seemed to go on with
[02:50:21.279] Epstein where you have this bizarre
[02:50:25.120] telephone game of terms being you have
[02:50:28.960] like in UFO world it's like extended
[02:50:30.880] electronamics and all these like weird
[02:50:32.560] frameworks that nobody knows how to
[02:50:34.240] define and then you read those Epstein
[02:50:36.560] emails and he's like boost your physics
[02:50:39.600] he's like you know time is actually just
[02:50:41.680] a function of the vibration of cesium
[02:50:43.520] atoms and he's
[02:50:45.520] infiltrating the math department at
[02:50:48.160] Harvard and somehow has a lot of sway
[02:50:50.399] with these people and is speaking like a
[02:50:53.680] person who was maybe told some real
[02:50:56.560] stuff.
[02:50:57.040] >> This is this is the thing it's very hard
[02:50:58.720] to convey because particularly academics
[02:51:01.279] and PhDs
[02:51:03.439] don't want to be conned like at all
[02:51:05.840] costs. My feeling is this is an
[02:51:08.240] extremely dumb way to go through life.
[02:51:11.120] um you're going to be conned for sure.
[02:51:15.279] Try to figure out who's saying something
[02:51:17.040] interesting by listening. And in my
[02:51:21.279] estimation, Epstein was saying
[02:51:24.240] interesting things to me
[02:51:27.359] that didn't originate from his mind.
[02:51:30.720] >> It's like they've hired an actor to play
[02:51:33.279] a hedge fund manager. I only met him
[02:51:35.680] once. Uh it was probably for about an
[02:51:38.720] hour or so. Um, but he was an absolutely
[02:51:42.479] terrifying person to encounter.
[02:51:45.840] It would be surprising to me if I was
[02:51:47.439] alone in that I immediately had the
[02:51:49.439] suspicion that I was looking at somebody
[02:51:51.359] who had been constructed rather than
[02:51:53.920] something that had organically arisen
[02:51:55.680] within the financial community. It was
[02:51:57.920] like somebody who' learned a phrase in a
[02:52:00.319] foreign language and he was repeating it
[02:52:02.479] as best he could. Like I don't I don't
[02:52:05.760] think people really have a clear idea of
[02:52:07.680] how crazy that interview he gives to
[02:52:09.439] Bannon or the media training he was
[02:52:11.279] doing. He gets like eight things wrong
[02:52:13.920] in a row and people said, "Well, Eric,
[02:52:15.520] you were wrong. He clearly is a much
[02:52:17.200] better spoken, much more informed
[02:52:18.800] person." So he founded the Santa Fe
[02:52:21.760] Institute in 1990 to 93 when it was
[02:52:24.479] founded in 1984 by other people.
[02:52:28.399] >> So bizarre. Or this was around the time
[02:52:30.640] that Murray Galman was naming quarks
[02:52:33.760] from a poem when quirks were named many
[02:52:37.120] years earlier.
[02:52:38.640] >> Says he was a good Wall Street trader
[02:52:40.160] because he had calculators. We had Texas
[02:52:42.960] instruments back then. So,
[02:52:44.880] >> okay. So, so this is what I saw with
[02:52:47.680] like Bob Lazar. You know, Eric latched
[02:52:50.720] on to the fact that Lazar is lying.
[02:52:52.720] Okay. So, fine, he's lying. It doesn't
[02:52:54.560] mean it's uninteresting.
[02:52:56.479] Not only is it not uninteresting, but
[02:52:59.359] it's I think it's simultaneously it's a
[02:53:01.439] little strange to say I know that there
[02:53:04.240] is a longterm legacy UFO reverse
[02:53:08.399] engineering program than the one guy
[02:53:09.840] that comes out where I think a lot of
[02:53:12.000] his stuff checks to be honest and I
[02:53:14.160] think you can easily character
[02:53:17.200] assassinate the person by saying you
[02:53:18.960] know he was involved in XYZ but a lot of
[02:53:21.680] his the details check. My point is
[02:53:23.680] assume that assume that he's uh
[02:53:25.840] schizophrenic. Assume that he's uh got
[02:53:28.720] delusions of grandeur. I I don't know.
[02:53:32.880] I I'd never had the thought before that
[02:53:36.800] the topological instanton sector of QCD
[02:53:41.120] based on the pontriogen class could be
[02:53:44.800] transgressed to a churn simon and churn
[02:53:46.640] simon is as close to Einstein Hilbert.
[02:53:49.600] Um, and I only had that because I was
[02:53:52.000] just so sickened by what Lazar was
[02:53:53.840] saying as if he's talking, I'm going to
[02:53:56.160] explain the world to you kids and he
[02:53:57.600] starts talking garbage.
[02:53:59.279] >> When when did you hear that and and have
[02:54:00.960] this idea about the theta sector and
[02:54:02.640] then look at it?
[02:54:03.359] >> It's an interesting question. Ro Joe
[02:54:05.120] Rogan, who's, you know, a friend, wanted
[02:54:07.680] me to sit down with Bob Lazar and, you
[02:54:10.240] know, I sat down with Terrence Howard.
[02:54:12.560] Um, and I have a great deal of fun with
[02:54:14.640] Terrence and Terrence and I get on,
[02:54:16.880] although sometimes he threatens me and I
[02:54:18.479] hate that. Um, [snorts] but Terrence,
[02:54:21.600] you know, I I was I was praiseworthy in
[02:54:25.279] the one or two areas where Terrence was
[02:54:27.279] doing something really new. And in
[02:54:28.960] general, I had to pour cold water on
[02:54:30.640] most everything else, he said. And you
[02:54:33.200] know, that's the price of being taken
[02:54:34.560] seriously by somebody like me. And in
[02:54:37.040] the case of Bob Lazar, Joe once said,
[02:54:39.279] "Let's sit down." Now, I didn't I
[02:54:42.319] wouldn't have done the Terrence episode
[02:54:44.160] if I didn't have something to say which
[02:54:46.160] Terrence which is positive, which is
[02:54:48.640] Terrence found one remarkable thing. At
[02:54:50.640] least he just did. So, with one
[02:54:53.920] remarkable thing, I'm willing to do it.
[02:54:55.359] Otherwise, it's a character
[02:54:56.399] assassination.
[02:54:57.920] I did not want to sit down with Bob
[02:54:59.520] Lazar and do a character assassination.
[02:55:02.399] Just characterologically, I don't like
[02:55:04.240] going after human beings. I go after
[02:55:05.920] institutions. Well, he would say he's
[02:55:08.160] not at he would say these are frameworks
[02:55:09.840] that were given to him, but he said that
[02:55:12.080] he was at MIT, let's say, in the physics
[02:55:13.840] department. So immediately the problem
[02:55:16.880] is is that whenever you get to real
[02:55:20.080] academic physics, the world shrinks to a
[02:55:23.600] tiny number of people. And I don't think
[02:55:26.160] that the outside world either
[02:55:27.920] appreciates one of two things about
[02:55:29.520] frontier physics. one, it's a tiny world
[02:55:33.520] because it's so difficult
[02:55:38.000] and two, how vertical it is in terms of
[02:55:40.720] human ability.
[02:55:41.840] >> Did he say he was in the physics
[02:55:42.960] department though? I don't think he
[02:55:44.080] >> I think he
[02:55:45.040] >> I don't think so.
[02:55:46.000] >> Joe Joe told me
[02:55:47.520] >> there's a statement somewhere where he
[02:55:48.720] said he had physics at MIT and Caltech
[02:55:51.120] going back to the early 90s. that was
[02:55:52.800] part of the early
[02:55:54.000] >> I think it was just MIT but I think my
[02:55:57.520] read on it is that MIT is university uh
[02:56:02.319] affiliated research center UAR and they
[02:56:05.600] do spooky and
[02:56:07.760] >> well Draper
[02:56:09.040] >> Mhm. For example, in Lincoln Labs,
[02:56:11.200] >> right? MIT Lincoln Labs.
[02:56:12.800] >> Yeah. Are are different sorts of
[02:56:14.800] entities. [snorts]
[02:56:15.920] >> Exactly.
[02:56:16.479] >> You know, so the issue is are you are
[02:56:19.120] you at at MIT or are you really at
[02:56:21.120] Draper or Lincoln?
[02:56:22.640] >> Yeah. If you're talking to somebody from
[02:56:24.080] MIT and Lincoln Labs, you're not talking
[02:56:25.680] to MIT faculty.
[02:56:27.359] >> I I don't know, but my sense is he was
[02:56:31.439] put there to work on um
[02:56:36.800] something defense related.
[02:56:39.680] again.
[02:56:41.120] >> So like more like functional, not high
[02:56:43.439] level theoretical. But
[02:56:46.160] >> so you ask you're asking me the
[02:56:48.000] question, how did I come to think about
[02:56:50.080] this thing from Bob Lazar?
[02:56:51.359] >> Yeah. When did gravity age sounding like
[02:56:53.040] >> so in order in order for me to sit down
[02:56:55.439] with Bob Lazar according to my own rules
[02:56:58.960] for I don't hunt human beings in general
[02:57:02.560] unless they hunt me or unless it's
[02:57:05.520] unless there's no other option. I don't
[02:57:07.040] I hunt institutions that are failing. I
[02:57:09.760] don't hunt people. I just don't like I
[02:57:11.600] don't like the ethos. So, in order for
[02:57:13.760] me to come on with Bob Lazar, I would
[02:57:15.600] have to find one thing credible in what
[02:57:18.880] he's saying.
[02:57:20.640] So, I went over it. I tried to say, "Is
[02:57:22.399] there any way of making this make
[02:57:23.680] sense?" And originally, I couldn't do
[02:57:25.040] it. I couldn't figure out this gravity
[02:57:26.399] wave a gravity wave B because he and I
[02:57:29.600] would get into it and it would be a very
[02:57:30.960] short, brutal,
[02:57:33.439] you know, it it would be Askin versus
[02:57:35.359] Musvidel. I don't want to do that.
[02:57:38.240] Um,
[02:57:39.920] and then I found that and that was the
[02:57:41.359] thing that was going to allow me to sit
[02:57:42.560] down with Bob Lazar is
[02:57:44.399] >> you could be saying something.
[02:57:46.720] >> Problem is I don't think he'd be able to
[02:57:48.160] hang with
[02:57:49.520] >> Okay. But but it's it's a formal
[02:57:51.600] possibility.
[02:57:52.319] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[02:57:52.960] >> I also don't think he would try as an
[02:57:55.120] author of the material to your point. He
[02:57:57.439] would convey these are frameworks
[02:57:59.200] provided to me elsewhere. He wouldn't
[02:58:01.520] try to take technical ownership of
[02:58:03.760] gravity A and gravity B. Well, the other
[02:58:05.680] thing is is that I would say that even
[02:58:07.359] mathematicians and physicists really get
[02:58:09.520] this wrong. And the person who didn't
[02:58:10.880] get it wrong bizarrely was Jeff Epstein,
[02:58:12.720] which means that he's talking to
[02:58:13.920] somebody.
[02:58:16.000] >> In general, we we we do a bad job of
[02:58:19.840] counting
[02:58:21.600] the degree of a differential equation.
[02:58:24.960] So if differential equations are how we
[02:58:26.960] tell how the world develops,
[02:58:29.279] the standard way of figuring out the
[02:58:31.040] degree of a differential equation is
[02:58:32.640] saying take the fields that are in it
[02:58:35.279] and count the maximum number of
[02:58:37.040] derivatives that are taken of those
[02:58:38.720] fields before you get to the equations.
[02:58:42.880] And that would say that the Einstein
[02:58:45.520] field equations are second order and the
[02:58:48.160] Maxwell's equations are second order.
[02:58:50.720] There's a different thing you can do
[02:58:52.000] which is you can say okay in fundamental
[02:58:55.600] force law first spot the curvature
[02:58:58.080] tensor and then tell me how many
[02:59:00.479] derivatives I take of the curvature
[02:59:02.319] tensor. In that case those are no longer
[02:59:04.960] the same. Einstein's theory would be
[02:59:07.840] zeroith order in that way of writing it
[02:59:10.399] and Yang Mill's theory would be first
[02:59:12.319] order because you take one degree in
[02:59:14.399] Yang one differential in Yang Mills
[02:59:16.800] theory you take zero differential you
[02:59:18.319] just do linear algebra to the curvature
[02:59:21.200] tensor in in general relativity
[02:59:24.240] so
[02:59:26.160] I don't think most people realize the
[02:59:28.880] extent to which the churn Simons and
[02:59:30.640] Einstein Hilbert are basically playing
[02:59:33.920] very similar roles
[02:59:36.240] In the two theories, one of them is
[02:59:37.840] Romanian, one of them is Arismanian.
[02:59:40.880] And
[02:59:42.640] the key features they're both second
[02:59:45.120] they're both zero with order in the
[02:59:46.800] curvature when you take the Olrange
[02:59:48.720] equation, which is very hard to do.
[02:59:51.439] that thing that that property
[02:59:54.560] means that there's a very strong tie
[02:59:56.640] which is more broadly accepted between
[03:00:00.399] churn Simons which currently lives only
[03:00:02.640] in dimension three and in its most
[03:00:05.040] strict sense and Einstein Hilbert which
[03:00:07.840] can live in any dimension.
[03:00:10.160] So
[03:00:11.680] you know look there's a hope I just
[03:00:13.359] don't think that most people think about
[03:00:17.600] uh geometric physics in this way. Well,
[03:00:20.720] interesting connection. Churn Simons is
[03:00:23.040] named after who and who?
[03:00:26.160] >> This is Churn and Jim Simons.
[03:00:28.080] >> And Jim Simons. And that that takes us
[03:00:30.240] back possibly to Renaissance
[03:00:32.560] Technologies, who what has the largest
[03:00:35.439] concentration of differential geometers
[03:00:37.760] in the US.
[03:00:38.720] >> Well, that's So, look, I I more or less
[03:00:40.720] accused Jim Simons of this shortly
[03:00:43.200] before he died.
[03:00:45.840] Um, and I told him, I mean, it was very
[03:00:48.399] collegial and very positive, but I said,
[03:00:51.439] "You do realize that you have the
[03:00:53.600] closest Lrangeian to Einstein Hilbert.
[03:00:56.000] We don't usually talk about Simons
[03:00:57.840] versus Einstein."
[03:00:59.680] What did he say?
[03:01:01.840] Well, then we have this completely
[03:01:03.439] bizarre interchange. So, he wants me to
[03:01:05.359] tell him more. So I explain that
[03:01:07.439] essentially
[03:01:10.240] in dimension three
[03:01:13.520] your object which is actually a
[03:01:15.680] transgression misinterpreted as an
[03:01:17.920] action or a lrangeian
[03:01:20.880] has the closest thing to the
[03:01:22.640] characteristics of the Einstein Hilbert
[03:01:24.560] action which is the integral of the
[03:01:26.000] scalar curvature integrated over the
[03:01:27.680] space-time manifold and I said
[03:01:31.840] in dimension three you don't have any
[03:01:34.319] vile curvature to get rid of the way
[03:01:36.000] Einstein had to get rid of the vile
[03:01:37.600] curvature and discard it as he filleted
[03:01:40.399] the rest of the rem curvature tader
[03:01:44.479] and you you you don't have the gauge um
[03:01:48.319] benefit of your action you churn Simons
[03:01:52.240] in the Einsteinian case but otherwise
[03:01:54.720] they're extraordinarily similar
[03:01:57.520] did did you know that they're both
[03:02:00.319] inside of a parent theory and the parent
[03:02:03.439] theory combines Einstein Hilbert and
[03:02:06.800] Chern Simons
[03:02:09.840] and new stuff.
[03:02:12.880] And that's what geometric unity does.
[03:02:15.520] Geometric unity gauges gravity
[03:02:18.399] effectively
[03:02:20.240] and
[03:02:22.800] gives you contraction. So you're both
[03:02:24.560] contracting and gauging, which you're
[03:02:26.240] not supposed to be able to do under most
[03:02:27.840] circumstances.
[03:02:29.840] And I said, 'You going to have a role in
[03:02:32.560] life that is much closer to Albert
[03:02:34.560] Einstein's when this is all done. Not
[03:02:37.200] that not that you're making an
[03:02:38.240] Einsteinian discovery, but the thing
[03:02:40.640] that will replace Einstein will also
[03:02:44.960] explain the work that you did. And he
[03:02:47.760] said, "This is unbelievably fascinating.
[03:02:49.840] You have to come to State University of
[03:02:52.000] Stonybrook to the Simon Center for
[03:02:54.000] Geometry and Physics and spend a year
[03:02:56.160] and teach us this."
[03:02:58.080] >> Wow. So, I said, "Okay. Um, I'm moved,
[03:03:03.439] but I I I would like nothing better." I
[03:03:06.720] said, "You're just going to have to
[03:03:08.160] understand that I have a family, and I
[03:03:10.399] have a son who's finishing his last year
[03:03:13.200] of of high school. So, I'm going to need
[03:03:16.319] a little bit of help with the heavy
[03:03:17.680] lifting of relocating the family for a
[03:03:20.319] summer for for a year at a time when we
[03:03:24.399] can't afford a lot of tumult.
[03:03:28.720] And he looked at me and he said, "Okay,
[03:03:31.200] well, do you have any idea where you get
[03:03:32.640] the money?"
[03:03:35.279] Isn't he worth$20 billion plus at that
[03:03:39.040] time?
[03:03:39.600] >> Yes.
[03:03:41.279] >> That's crazy. And I I I looked at him.
[03:03:45.680] I couldn't parse it.
[03:03:51.359] >> It just doesn't add up.
[03:03:53.520] >> It's [clears throat] so strange. Did you
[03:03:55.920] I mean, you just didn't want to grabble
[03:03:57.600] at that point and you kind of
[03:03:58.560] >> Well, I'm not going to grable.
[03:03:59.680] >> Yeah. And that that's so crazy.
[03:04:01.520] >> Did you get the vibe that he was genu
[03:04:03.359] genuinely hearing about this technical
[03:04:05.520] detail for the first time?
[03:04:07.680] >> This is the first of two meetings that
[03:04:09.520] sound like this. The first time I had a
[03:04:11.279] meeting with him, I spent three hours
[03:04:15.120] um
[03:04:17.040] with him going over a gauge theory of
[03:04:19.680] modern economics. Now, he happens to be
[03:04:21.520] married to an economist. He obviously
[03:04:23.279] works in the markets and gauge theory
[03:04:26.800] just so it's not thought to be
[03:04:28.880] intimidating or or too cool for school
[03:04:31.520] is really just differential calculus
[03:04:33.279] done correctly.
[03:04:35.200] And unfortunately we call it gauge
[03:04:37.120] theory and we only teach people who are
[03:04:39.439] very high up in pure mathematics or
[03:04:41.760] theoretical physics. Nobody else learns
[03:04:43.359] gauge theory. We should teach gauge
[03:04:45.680] theory in high school. It's it's just
[03:04:47.520] it's an indispensable way of looking at
[03:04:49.680] the world and it's just differential
[03:04:51.760] calculus done right. So in economic
[03:04:55.439] theory
[03:04:57.359] there was a thing called the marginal
[03:04:58.800] revolution which Tyler Cowan borrowed
[03:05:01.040] for the name of his blog
[03:05:03.520] and that was the penetration of the
[03:05:04.960] differential calculus into economics.
[03:05:09.040] So what what I did uh together with Pia
[03:05:11.920] Milani was to show that modern
[03:05:16.640] neocclassical economics is a
[03:05:19.680] self-evident gauge theory at multiple
[03:05:21.600] levels.
[03:05:23.040] And that was not taken well by the
[03:05:25.279] Harvard economics department,
[03:05:26.880] particularly by one man named Dale
[03:05:28.800] Jorgensson, who was the chairman of the
[03:05:30.479] department, and basically went nuts
[03:05:33.840] trying to make sure that my wife was
[03:05:35.600] unemployable.
[03:05:37.359] And the reason that he did that is that
[03:05:39.200] he was tasked by senators uh Bob Pacwood
[03:05:43.600] and Daniel Patrick Moahan with
[03:05:48.080] pretending there was a 1.1%
[03:05:50.000] overstatement in the uh consumer price
[03:05:53.760] index to transfer a trillion dollars
[03:05:57.040] because all tax receipts and all social
[03:05:59.120] security payments are indexed. So tax
[03:06:02.720] brackets and
[03:06:05.680] you can raise taxes and slash benefits
[03:06:08.720] both at the same time by making a
[03:06:11.200] technical adjustment in inflation.
[03:06:12.720] You'll notice that many of us are
[03:06:13.920] experiencing inflation that's not fully
[03:06:15.600] reflected in our statistics. So there
[03:06:18.240] was a crime going on which the Bosan
[03:06:20.479] Commission was committing against the
[03:06:22.560] American people by putting in a 1.1%
[03:06:26.399] overstatement in the CPI by hand at the
[03:06:29.120] same moment that Melani and myself were
[03:06:32.399] showing
[03:06:34.080] the economics is a gauge theory and
[03:06:36.319] there's a completely different way of
[03:06:37.840] looking at this and Jorgensson didn't
[03:06:40.319] want any competition.
[03:06:43.520] So anyway, I talked to Jim. Jim said,
[03:06:46.399] "Look, this is amazing. Uh, I've never
[03:06:50.080] thought about this, but you're right
[03:06:51.520] about bundle theory and derivatives and
[03:06:54.319] projection operators." I said, "Well,
[03:06:56.960] you have to I have to ask you a
[03:06:59.120] question. Your returns are so off the
[03:07:01.520] chart.
[03:07:03.040] You have to have some explanation for
[03:07:05.200] why you're able to do this much of a
[03:07:07.040] better job."
[03:07:09.680] And I said, "Are you are you using this?
[03:07:12.640] Your wife is an economist. You're a
[03:07:14.080] differential geometer. you're in the
[03:07:15.520] same situation I am. Did you get here
[03:07:18.000] first? He took a drag on his cigarette.
[03:07:23.439] There's a very long pause. He said,
[03:07:24.800] "Eric, if you knew how he actually made
[03:07:26.880] money, you'd be so disappointed."
[03:07:32.399] What do you think he meant by that?
[03:07:35.439] >> You could imagine. I have no idea. But
[03:07:38.399] there's certainly, look, so far as I
[03:07:41.200] know, I'm the first person
[03:07:43.680] because I come from a math physics
[03:07:45.279] background to say I'm not really
[03:07:46.880] positive that this thing is just a hedge
[03:07:48.720] fund.
[03:07:50.160] >> The returns are too impressive. You
[03:07:52.720] know, they're like North Korean returns.
[03:07:54.560] And then the deer leader, you know,
[03:07:56.160] ascended to the mountaintop and wrote
[03:07:57.840] the seven most beautiful symphonies
[03:07:59.600] before descending on a winged unicorn.
[03:08:01.760] It's like in the early 2000s
[03:08:05.040] I didn't believe the following four
[03:08:06.880] funds. Bernie Maidoff,
[03:08:10.000] Renaissance Technologies,
[03:08:12.479] De Shaw, and Jeff Epstein.
[03:08:15.279] >> Why De Shaw?
[03:08:17.359] >> It was a strange thing that I knew
[03:08:19.120] people who worked there. They were so
[03:08:20.560] highly compartmentalized that they
[03:08:23.040] basically had the sense of they had no
[03:08:24.800] idea how the whole thing worked. And so
[03:08:28.640] it had, as you know, there is a very
[03:08:31.680] strange property of government secrecy,
[03:08:34.800] which is the only thing people really
[03:08:36.880] trust is compartmentalization and stove
[03:08:39.120] piping.
[03:08:41.200] The general belief is is that people
[03:08:43.279] will always talk and you have to have
[03:08:44.720] the people sharded with enough
[03:08:47.200] granularity that nobody can put together
[03:08:49.200] what's actually going on. Do you think
[03:08:51.359] because I mean Brook Haven National Labs
[03:08:54.479] is the site of Cosmatron which is the
[03:08:56.640] largest particle accelerator in the US.
[03:08:59.680] It is. Do you know that?
[03:09:01.359] >> No, I didn't. I thought Firmeny Lab
[03:09:03.120] would have been.
[03:09:03.680] >> No, it's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[03:09:05.040] So, so, so they they're doing, you know,
[03:09:07.520] they have uh particle accelerator
[03:09:09.279] that's, you know, pretty powerful up
[03:09:10.800] there. They have Stonybrook which you
[03:09:13.040] know uh is definitely punching above its
[03:09:14.880] weight class when it comes to physics.
[03:09:17.359] uh which has some interesting also
[03:09:18.960] >> particularly mathematics
[03:09:20.640] >> particularly mathematics also some
[03:09:22.880] interesting architecture up there as
[03:09:24.720] well that you've noted uh and then you
[03:09:27.840] have this fund which seems to get 30%
[03:09:30.080] year-over-year no matter what you know
[03:09:31.840] up years down years you know it's just
[03:09:34.000] always sort of you know performing at
[03:09:35.680] the same clip and uh I guess my question
[03:09:39.920] would be do you think this was sort of a
[03:09:43.120] slush fund for secret science
[03:09:46.720] I think it's not irresponsible. Look,
[03:09:49.840] you know my thing about responsible
[03:09:51.520] conspiracy theorizing, which is that you
[03:09:54.000] go back in the history of actual
[03:09:55.600] conspiracies and you say your new
[03:09:58.000] thought about a conspiracy
[03:10:00.399] should be within a standard deviation or
[03:10:03.439] two of something that's known to exist.
[03:10:07.120] So if you take Los Alamos as a good
[03:10:09.439] example,
[03:10:12.240] you have a
[03:10:16.880] protected campus and compound.
[03:10:19.920] You have top math physics talent.
[03:10:23.279] You have duplicitous filings. For
[03:10:26.720] example, they didn't want people to know
[03:10:28.399] that plutonium and uranium were the two
[03:10:30.399] main radioactive
[03:10:32.399] elements that they were focused on. So
[03:10:34.240] that I believe Harold Yuri may have been
[03:10:36.240] sent to promote others. They didn't want
[03:10:38.800] people realizing that it was as easy as
[03:10:41.359] it as it turned out to be. So there was
[03:10:43.520] a lot of disinformation scientifically
[03:10:46.960] because you had to explain why you have
[03:10:49.680] all of this focus on chain reactions and
[03:10:52.080] then suddenly interest just stops.
[03:10:55.439] Okay. So my claim is that if you believe
[03:10:59.439] that Los Alamos exists and if you
[03:11:02.160] believe that the RAD lab exists, the
[03:11:04.800] radiation laboratory at MIT and you
[03:11:06.640] believe a bunch of these things, it is
[03:11:09.920] not hard. Oh, and then you believe like
[03:11:12.640] dummy companies and shell companies like
[03:11:15.520] Southern Air Transport or Air America,
[03:11:18.160] you know, um
[03:11:23.040] that's not the problem. The secret
[03:11:25.840] squirrels in Washington DC don't want
[03:11:28.880] smart Americans turning this into a
[03:11:31.040] parlor game. So they've decided that,
[03:11:33.840] okay, we're going to spread one idea,
[03:11:35.439] which is that everybody who speculates
[03:11:37.760] about the secret world is a loser.
[03:11:40.560] There's only one reason to speculate
[03:11:42.000] about the secret world is that you're
[03:11:43.680] stupid.
[03:11:45.840] >> Right?
[03:11:47.359] And I really despise this.
[03:11:49.520] >> So what I said was entirely responsible.
[03:11:52.800] Uh, if you were trying to call the
[03:11:55.279] National Security Agency, no such agency
[03:11:57.600] back in the day,
[03:11:59.920] that would be bad because I would say,
[03:12:02.319] "Tell me where number theorists go who
[03:12:04.160] don't get academic jobs, and let's map
[03:12:06.960] the uh the zip codes." Oh, look, there's
[03:12:09.120] this little cluster.
[03:12:11.040] I don't know, Maryland or Delaware or
[03:12:12.880] wherever it is, you know, and you'd find
[03:12:15.120] Fort me. Okay. Well, there's a cluster.
[03:12:18.240] Renaissance Technologies.
[03:12:20.960] >> Yes. You know, so are you actually I'm
[03:12:24.240] not telling you what's in it or not. I'm
[03:12:26.080] telling you if if somebody told me
[03:12:29.120] tomorrow there is a Manhattan 3.0 and
[03:12:32.960] it's about gravity and UAPs and post
[03:12:35.840] Einsteinian engineering.
[03:12:38.640] Where is its brain trust? With 95%
[03:12:41.840] confidence
[03:12:43.359] I would tell you it's Renaissance
[03:12:44.800] technologies.
[03:12:47.840] On the other hand, if you asked, is
[03:12:50.399] there such a program?
[03:12:52.560] I don't know that I don't know that my
[03:12:54.720] confidence would be so high. If there is
[03:12:56.080] a secret program, I'm pretty sure it's
[03:12:57.760] Renaissance Technologies.
[03:12:59.279] >> Some percentage times 95% or something.
[03:13:02.399] >> Well, that's the thing. It might be. It
[03:13:05.600] might well not be. But you know, if you
[03:13:07.120] asked me, um, hey, tell me what are
[03:13:11.760] Fineman Beta uh, John Vonoyman doing at
[03:13:15.600] a boarding school or at a boy school in
[03:13:18.880] the New Mexico
[03:13:20.800] uh, wilderness.
[03:13:23.279] I'd say that's a really strange place to
[03:13:24.960] find. [laughter]
[03:13:26.319] >> Yeah, it's an odd concentration of the
[03:13:29.279] country's top physicist. Oh, well,
[03:13:31.600] they're investing in secondary education
[03:13:33.840] for young men because they have
[03:13:35.359] self-image issues. Oh,
[03:13:37.040] >> okay. [laughter]
[03:13:39.760] >> Exactly. Well, you also, you know,
[03:13:42.560] you've noted that
[03:13:44.720] or this isn't even something you've
[03:13:46.080] noted. This is something, you know, in
[03:13:47.439] the age of disclosure or and by the way,
[03:13:49.760] this movie came out and you have DNI
[03:13:52.239] level people. You have James Clapper,
[03:13:54.239] you have
[03:13:54.560] >> Brennan. Wait, wait, wait one second. I
[03:13:56.319] just want to say this thing. Yeah, I
[03:13:57.840] don't want to speculate against
[03:14:00.000] Renaissance technologies if they're just
[03:14:01.920] really good
[03:14:03.920] traders. In other words, I'm not trying
[03:14:05.760] to bring darkness to their door. But if
[03:14:09.520] we're going to play this cat and mouse
[03:14:11.120] game about what's true and what's real
[03:14:13.279] and and and I'll just get very
[03:14:16.160] very pointed about it.
[03:14:19.680] Do not mess with your expert class,
[03:14:24.160] right? The current strategy of dealing
[03:14:26.640] with the expert class who's not read in
[03:14:29.760] to whatever this is is to just pretend
[03:14:32.560] that we're all incapable thinkers,
[03:14:36.640] that we've got some personal problem
[03:14:38.160] that we're working at.
[03:14:41.680] I want to terminate that program with
[03:14:44.720] extreme prejudice. You do not go after
[03:14:46.960] your expert class because you were dumb
[03:14:48.800] enough not to read them in
[03:14:51.600] and then they figured out something of
[03:14:53.279] what you were doing. Yeah. I don't know.
[03:14:55.840] I don't know the specifics, but I'm not
[03:14:57.680] I'm not stupid.
[03:14:58.640] >> Well, the other issue with the way
[03:15:01.359] things have gone, if we take Eric Davis
[03:15:03.439] at face value on there being no
[03:15:05.439] physicists in this vital secret core
[03:15:07.760] program,
[03:15:08.479] >> how did you react to that, Jesse? Let me
[03:15:10.000] turn it around.
[03:15:11.200] >> I It's crazy. I mean, it's it's um it's
[03:15:15.120] outrageous. It's uh if that is the case,
[03:15:19.600] it's uh it's extremely irresponsible and
[03:15:22.640] it's not being run well at all. It makes
[03:15:25.120] no sense. Why would you be operating
[03:15:28.160] within a boundary that has been set
[03:15:31.439] historically, you have, you know, every
[03:15:35.040] century or two centuries, you have an
[03:15:37.200] overturning of our physical model of
[03:15:39.120] reality. And if you're telling me that
[03:15:41.600] you are getting slag discs, you know,
[03:15:45.439] whatever it is, material that you are
[03:15:47.439] saying, you know, with 100% confidence
[03:15:49.680] is not ours [clears throat] because it's
[03:15:51.520] been atomically bonded or has isotope
[03:15:53.600] ratios with heavy elements or any of the
[03:15:55.439] stuff that we're hearing before
[03:15:56.960] Congress, a lot of these guys saying.
[03:15:59.600] And then you were saying, but we're
[03:16:02.080] operating within the bounds of the
[03:16:04.479] constraints that we've set on ourselves
[03:16:07.040] in this century.
[03:16:08.319] >> No make sense. It makes no sense. It's
[03:16:11.200] >> I'm following my contract. It's like
[03:16:13.120] this is nonsense.
[03:16:14.239] >> No. And and everybody repeats this as if
[03:16:18.560] as if they're
[03:16:20.880] I mean it's it's like if you gave the
[03:16:22.640] excuse, well, no, because it's it's
[03:16:24.080] Wednesday every week and everybody said
[03:16:26.880] that. You sort of get a nerd to it, but
[03:16:28.880] then you realize, yes, there's a
[03:16:30.239] Wednesday of every week. That had
[03:16:31.279] nothing to do with any. You have to be
[03:16:32.720] highly disagreeable to basically say,
[03:16:35.680] you know, Eric, what you just said, no,
[03:16:37.520] no, no offense, makes no sense at all.
[03:16:40.160] >> And what's so weird about it is I am
[03:16:43.120] cynical. I think I think national
[03:16:44.720] security runs the day on all this stuff.
[03:16:46.560] And so once something makes sense from a
[03:16:48.399] national security standpoint, it just
[03:16:50.000] happens. Yeah.
[03:16:51.359] >> And so if this were this grave
[03:16:56.479] issue where you think you might be able
[03:16:58.560] to do anything with any of this
[03:17:00.399] material,
[03:17:01.920] obviously you'd put your best and
[03:17:03.600] brightest on it. Obviously the stove
[03:17:06.080] piping of it would be an immediate
[03:17:08.399] urgent issue that you would
[03:17:10.319] >> or you put the best and the brightest on
[03:17:12.880] top of the stove pipe system which is
[03:17:14.640] what we did at Los Alamos. The white
[03:17:16.319] badges.
[03:17:18.640] Look, man, [snorts]
[03:17:20.000] we have cowboys still.
[03:17:23.279] >> Chasing physics. You're
[03:17:24.560] >> you're Yeah,
[03:17:26.640] you're you're castrating the people who
[03:17:28.880] can do this work.
[03:17:31.120] Well, that's that's the other, you know,
[03:17:33.040] thing which I think is even worse than
[03:17:36.000] the program being dysfunctional is you
[03:17:39.680] have this narrative of in UFO world of,
[03:17:43.200] you know, restricted data and all this
[03:17:46.080] stuff getting relegated to, you know,
[03:17:48.080] your Locked and Northrups and aerospace
[03:17:50.160] contractors because if they retrieve a
[03:17:52.800] thing, it's born secret under the Atomic
[03:17:55.760] Energy Act of 1954. And this is, you
[03:17:58.880] know, it's sort of DOE jurisdiction,
[03:18:00.640] right?
[03:18:02.399] Then you end up with uh, you know,
[03:18:05.279] 1980s, 1990s world where,
[03:18:08.880] you know, not only is that the, you
[03:18:11.120] know, whatever program is going on there
[03:18:13.120] seems to be sort of uh, inert and
[03:18:16.160] neutered and not particularly
[03:18:18.319] impressive, all all the stuff we're
[03:18:20.160] talking about right now.
[03:18:22.319] But you end up in a world where
[03:18:25.279] DOE security is so lax that Epstein can
[03:18:29.920] move to, you know, Zoro Ranch with the
[03:18:33.920] explicit intent of being near retired
[03:18:36.160] Los Alamos physicists so he can gain.
[03:18:39.840] >> You saw that clip I broke out.
[03:18:41.920] >> I broke it out for a reason. Nobody
[03:18:44.319] around me. They're going right through
[03:18:46.880] that clip.
[03:18:47.520] >> So why did I buy a ranch in New Mexico
[03:18:49.760] 1993? So that's gives you some sense. So
[03:18:52.399] I would have funded it in 1990.
[03:18:55.279] Uh Los Alamos, which was the high energy
[03:18:59.520] lab up in New Mexico was losing all its
[03:19:02.800] scientists.
[03:19:04.239] >> Los Alamos was where Oenheimer where the
[03:19:07.200] where the a lot of the the nuclear
[03:19:09.040] weapons program, the bomb.
[03:19:10.239] >> That's where Manhattan Project
[03:19:11.439] >> Manhattan Project was as Los Alamos. And
[03:19:14.479] you bought your property out in New
[03:19:15.680] Mexico to be near that.
[03:19:16.800] >> Yes. Because the scientists were going
[03:19:18.399] to be they cut the funding for high
[03:19:20.880] energy physics.
[03:19:22.080] >> Look, I'm just going to be more
[03:19:23.760] forthcoming. I have had a thankless job
[03:19:27.040] of saying the string theorists are
[03:19:28.640] horrible. Get them more money.
[03:19:32.479] People wonder like it doesn't make any
[03:19:34.399] sense. And now I'm going to spell it out
[03:19:36.399] because Epstein said the thing that I
[03:19:38.399] was trying to I was trying to be
[03:19:40.319] Straussian about it and sort of speak so
[03:19:42.720] that it's not evident.
[03:19:45.439] He was listening.
[03:19:48.479] At the end of the Cold War, you
[03:19:50.399] over your physicists. Who who who
[03:19:52.880] thought this up? How dumb are you? How
[03:19:57.120] dumb are is the United States of
[03:19:59.120] America? I just don't grasp it. On
[03:20:02.160] October 30th, 1993, President Clinton
[03:20:06.000] signed into law the death blow to the
[03:20:08.560] superconducting super collider. You have
[03:20:11.359] all of these deadly ninjas running
[03:20:13.279] around. Tell me something. Who were the
[03:20:15.600] first people the Israelis killed in Iran
[03:20:18.160] when they went in?
[03:20:20.319] >> Nuclear scientists.
[03:20:21.279] >> Yeah. Physicists.
[03:20:23.680] >> The Iranian Leon leader men's.
[03:20:26.000] >> Yeah.
[03:20:28.319] Now, I was [clears throat] not happy
[03:20:29.760] about that. You know, my feeling is
[03:20:31.920] don't shoot us with the piano players.
[03:20:33.920] But the Israelis made a decision that
[03:20:35.680] the first thing you do is kill your
[03:20:37.040] scientists.
[03:20:38.880] The thing here is
[03:20:42.560] if you look at the scientists, they look
[03:20:44.239] like a joke. They're playing around with
[03:20:46.000] toy models, lying about all the progress
[03:20:47.920] they're making. And my claim is is that
[03:20:50.800] until you pay these people, until you
[03:20:52.720] stop making them afraid, until you until
[03:20:55.439] you remove your hands from around their
[03:20:57.840] throats with their grants and their
[03:20:59.279] respectability,
[03:21:00.800] you're not going to get any physics. So
[03:21:03.359] the alternate interpretation of this and
[03:21:05.279] I hate to say it is that some somebody
[03:21:08.880] soft sunseted the world's most vital
[03:21:11.760] intellectual community which is frontier
[03:21:14.000] theoretical physicists and basically
[03:21:16.640] these people are now kind of almost
[03:21:20.399] buffoonish. The ex Epstein thing is a
[03:21:22.960] giant tangle and I'm just going to say
[03:21:26.239] more because I said it before these last
[03:21:28.960] this last trunch.
[03:21:31.040] Epste was running many different
[03:21:32.640] programs. It wasn't even Epstein
[03:21:34.560] probably running it. So, call the name
[03:21:36.399] of the organization or the project or
[03:21:38.560] whatever you want to call it, Jeffrey
[03:21:39.680] Epstein. But that does not mean
[03:21:43.680] that it was Jeffrey Epstein.
[03:21:45.359] >> He was not a policy maker.
[03:21:47.200] >> I don't know who he was. And and one of
[03:21:50.080] the things about responsible conspiracy
[03:21:52.000] theorizing is is that you don't
[03:21:53.840] constantly answer the question, well, if
[03:21:55.600] not X, then what? Why? No, I don't know.
[03:21:59.200] Get used to I don't know. There's a lot
[03:22:00.720] of I don't know in the story.
[03:22:03.920] I don't think he was running the Jeffrey
[03:22:06.399] Epstein
[03:22:08.160] special access project or whatever it
[03:22:10.160] was. If it was in the US government, it
[03:22:12.960] would be a special access.
[03:22:14.399] >> Clearly.
[03:22:14.880] >> Yeah.
[03:22:17.439] Somebody was running that thing. They
[03:22:19.760] hired the wrong actor because he wasn't
[03:22:21.520] that great of a friend.
[03:22:24.560] Many different things were going through
[03:22:26.000] it at the same time. So that plane of
[03:22:28.399] his is not the Lolita Express. It's his
[03:22:30.800] it's the plane that belonged to the
[03:22:32.800] project and it fed different people for
[03:22:35.200] different purposes. And that island is
[03:22:37.359] not pedophile island. That island may
[03:22:40.160] have had a tremendous amount of
[03:22:41.439] pedophilia and horrific things going on.
[03:22:44.080] But it's simply a container for whatever
[03:22:46.399] was going on through this project.
[03:22:50.080] So now you have the question about to
[03:22:51.680] what extent were the scientists
[03:22:52.960] implicated? To what extent was Jeffrey
[03:22:54.880] Epstein doing one thing saying he was
[03:22:56.560] doing another?
[03:22:58.399] So let let me um
[03:23:06.239] the Department of Energy has
[03:23:07.840] counterintelligence
[03:23:09.760] uh assets and directives. You're not
[03:23:13.600] supposed to let a super rich guy
[03:23:16.960] with no ostensible means of achieving
[03:23:20.000] his fortune
[03:23:22.160] buy an enormous ranch, a stones throw
[03:23:25.279] from Los Alamos with the intention of
[03:23:27.439] talking to high energy and weapons
[03:23:31.120] physicists at the end of the cold war as
[03:23:33.279] they lose their funding. Who blew this?
[03:23:37.840] And and who blew the fact that in the
[03:23:39.920] entire released information? This is the
[03:23:44.000] first thing I I found. You know, I was
[03:23:47.840] looking for this, which is the guy set
[03:23:50.080] up listening posts.
[03:23:52.319] He had another listening post called One
[03:23:54.479] Brattle Square.
[03:23:57.040] >> Where is that?
[03:23:58.000] >> It's in in Cambridge, Massachusetts
[03:24:00.479] 02138.
[03:24:02.720] >> So, let let me explain.
[03:24:05.200] Let me spell this out for the kids at
[03:24:06.880] home.
[03:24:12.160] The analog of Los Alamos
[03:24:15.760] is the Harvard math department.
[03:24:19.359] The analog of nuclear and theoretical
[03:24:22.399] physics and high energy physics
[03:24:26.000] is number theory.
[03:24:29.920] the benefits of knowing about this.
[03:24:34.239] In New Mexico, it's weapons. In
[03:24:36.800] Cambridge, Massachusetts, it might be
[03:24:38.560] cryptography.
[03:24:42.720] In New Mexico, you work with Murray
[03:24:44.560] Gelman.
[03:24:46.640] In Cambridge, Massachusetts, you work
[03:24:48.399] with Martin Noak.
[03:24:51.840] Your base of operations in New Mexico is
[03:24:54.319] called Zoro Ranch.
[03:24:56.880] in
[03:24:58.479] Cambridge, Massachusetts. It's called
[03:25:00.239] Office 610 at one Brattle Square.
[03:25:08.479] I have no idea what we just did.
[03:25:12.160] But whoever is supposed to be smart
[03:25:15.359] enough to protect our crown jewels
[03:25:19.439] has to recognize that just because the
[03:25:22.160] the thinking is is that he was going to
[03:25:24.160] make a a baby manufacturing facility at
[03:25:27.600] Zoro Ranch and that he was doing
[03:25:29.120] evolutionary dynamics at Harvard. I see
[03:25:32.160] no reason to think that those aren't
[03:25:34.239] cover stories. Well, what you just
[03:25:37.439] articulated, I think only a specific
[03:25:41.040] millu of people could even strategize
[03:25:44.319] for like clearly Epstein himself wasn't
[03:25:47.040] making that calculation.
[03:25:48.479] >> Listen to what Bannon asked Epstein.
[03:25:51.279] >> He said, "So, wait a minute. You bought
[03:25:53.359] this ranch uh and you founded the Santa
[03:25:57.359] Fe Institute?" Yeah. Around 1993.
[03:26:00.560] Okay. Who founded the Santa Fe
[03:26:02.080] Institute?
[03:26:03.680] Not Jeffrey Epstein. What year was it
[03:26:05.760] founded?
[03:26:07.279] 1984.
[03:26:10.880] Then he says Murray Galman at the time
[03:26:13.279] that he founded that Jeffrey Epste
[03:26:15.600] founded the Santa Fe Institute founded
[03:26:17.200] funded. I'm not sure he did give money
[03:26:19.680] but he he's not behind the Santa Fe
[03:26:22.960] Institute.
[03:26:24.800] Says Murray Galman was working out the
[03:26:26.880] word for quarks
[03:26:30.800] around then. Quarks were named much much
[03:26:33.520] earlier. He has no idea what he's
[03:26:35.439] talking about.
[03:26:36.000] >> Right. So, there's some telephone game
[03:26:37.439] at play.
[03:26:38.000] >> Yeah. And he says, you know, quirks had
[03:26:39.359] a certain they had color. They had
[03:26:41.520] flavor. They had a charm.
[03:26:44.640] He says, "Nobody knows what these things
[03:26:46.000] mean." Okay. Yes. Uh SU3 flavor was a
[03:26:51.359] failed scheme uh for lumping the up,
[03:26:55.600] down, and strange quirks into a
[03:26:58.160] multiplet in complex three-dimensional
[03:27:00.640] space. uh charm and and strange uh are
[03:27:05.040] the names of second generation
[03:27:07.840] um
[03:27:09.600] quirks.
[03:27:11.120] QCD we very well understand what a lot
[03:27:13.680] of it means because in part it has this
[03:27:16.800] property of asmtoic uh freedom so that
[03:27:20.000] it becomes a free theory. It's one of
[03:27:22.160] the it's the only theory we have that's
[03:27:24.239] physical that extrapolates all the way
[03:27:26.080] to the plank level.
[03:27:28.640] This guy had no idea what he's talking
[03:27:30.399] about.
[03:27:31.760] He didn't have an idea what he was
[03:27:33.120] talking about in currency trading
[03:27:35.520] >> and and yet he knew to infiltrate
[03:27:38.399] Harvard's math department or somebody
[03:27:40.640] did
[03:27:41.040] >> somebody that's what I'm saying
[03:27:42.960] >> somebody behind him knew that clearly
[03:27:45.840] because what you just articulated about
[03:27:48.080] particle theory and number theory and
[03:27:50.080] those two
[03:27:50.880] >> but nobody's thinking number theory
[03:27:52.319] because it's the emphasis is on the
[03:27:54.080] program on evolutionary dynamics.
[03:27:57.920] >> Martin Noak doesn't know anything about
[03:27:59.359] number theory.
[03:28:02.960] My claim is is that who who started the
[03:28:05.840] program in evolutionary dynamics?
[03:28:08.239] There's a different guy named Dick Gross
[03:28:10.080] who was a number theorist
[03:28:13.040] and Harvard references an imaginative
[03:28:15.840] proposal by Benedict Gross and Jeffrey
[03:28:18.080] Epstein.
[03:28:19.760] Oh, so his initial contact was a number
[03:28:22.319] theorist.
[03:28:24.319] How interesting.
[03:28:26.239] So strange. And then he's, you know,
[03:28:28.160] he's funding Joyito and this uh,
[03:28:32.080] you know, Bitcoin initiative.
[03:28:35.600] Well, that's about crypto.
[03:28:39.040] I I'm just saying, look, I don't know
[03:28:41.359] what happened, but
[03:28:46.319] I hate saying it this way. Are there no
[03:28:48.319] smart people?
[03:28:52.080] Like a hundred of my friends in
[03:28:54.160] mathematics and physics should be on
[03:28:56.160] this thing. And they've they've got
[03:28:58.239] everyone scared
[03:29:00.960] that to utter the words that are obvious
[03:29:02.960] to any one of us. Like why why were all
[03:29:06.000] of these super smart people hanging on
[03:29:07.760] Jeffrey Epstein's every word?
[03:29:11.920] So weird. Well, no, it's not weird.
[03:29:15.200] Have you ever noticed how interesting
[03:29:17.040] astrology becomes when it's explained to
[03:29:19.040] you by a woman in a really low cut
[03:29:22.319] dress?
[03:29:24.160] Right? Suddenly it's like Virgo, I never
[03:29:26.800] knew that. Wow. Oh, retrograde. That
[03:29:30.720] makes everything make sense. When when
[03:29:33.200] rich people are around has much the same
[03:29:35.200] effect.
[03:29:37.040] People blow smoke
[03:29:39.600] up rich people's backsides all the time.
[03:29:42.399] They just That is so insightful. That's
[03:29:45.680] what all these people were doing. We
[03:29:47.200] We're all starved for funding because
[03:29:50.319] the Vanavar Bush arrangement has been
[03:29:52.399] welched upon.
[03:29:54.560] And so you've got all of these starving
[03:29:56.640] ninjas who have skills that are pretty
[03:30:00.000] advanced and dangerous
[03:30:02.560] fawning over this crazy guy because he's
[03:30:05.920] got an island in a jet.
[03:30:09.359] Where do you think uh moving on to
[03:30:12.720] higher ground, where do you think all
[03:30:15.920] this UFO stuff goes? Because you have
[03:30:19.120] more official disclosures at a very high
[03:30:23.279] level going on than than ever. You have
[03:30:26.239] rumors of Trump saying things. You hear
[03:30:30.960] smatterings of people at least
[03:30:32.960] peripheral to the admin pretty
[03:30:35.600] interested in the issue. Donald Trump
[03:30:37.120] Jr. interviewed Ross Colart last year,
[03:30:40.720] you know, who's a UFO investigator
[03:30:43.040] journalist.
[03:30:43.840] >> Do you remember how Trump wanted to get
[03:30:45.920] to the bottom of the Epstein files?
[03:30:48.399] >> Yep. [sighs]
[03:30:50.239] >> You could forgive me for wondering what
[03:30:53.600] happened to that zeal.
[03:30:55.600] >> Do you think the same thing will apply
[03:30:57.439] to secret?
[03:30:58.640] >> This is what people don't understand
[03:31:00.319] about Washington DC.
[03:31:03.120] You have all sorts of people who don't
[03:31:05.120] understand what Washington DC is or how
[03:31:07.520] it works, who outside of the beltway
[03:31:10.399] form beliefs about what they're going to
[03:31:12.399] do once they get to Washington and they
[03:31:15.200] change almost instantly.
[03:31:18.239] Well,
[03:31:19.760] it's like the drain the swamp guy turns
[03:31:23.680] out met his wife through Epstein. You
[03:31:26.399] know, it's this thing where I think in
[03:31:29.600] that world, everyone got tagged. And so
[03:31:34.399] maybe this is the same thing that goes
[03:31:35.920] on with the UFO stuff. I don't know. But
[03:31:38.399] like
[03:31:39.040] >> there's something that cause you not to
[03:31:41.760] want to reveal things,
[03:31:43.120] >> right? Like it's somehow Trump gets
[03:31:45.040] implicated in the UFO thing in some
[03:31:47.920] weird way or
[03:31:49.520] >> it's insanely lucrative to control
[03:31:51.520] instead of to disclose.
[03:31:53.279] >> Sure. It could be that. Yeah. Or maybe
[03:31:56.479] the idea is that whatever this
[03:31:58.160] information is,
[03:32:00.560] assume it's the cover story for a weapon
[03:32:03.040] system that is easy to create and
[03:32:06.800] completely dangerous. Like I I keep
[03:32:09.920] giving the example of a thing that
[03:32:11.840] doesn't exist. The thing that doesn't
[03:32:13.760] exist is a is an energy beam that can be
[03:32:18.880] focused on the opposite side of the
[03:32:20.720] planet at any particular latitude and
[03:32:23.520] longitude that you give it. So you point
[03:32:26.160] a a mythological gun into the ground in
[03:32:29.920] a particular direction. You calculate
[03:32:31.920] the effect of the earth [clears throat]
[03:32:33.680] on the on on the beam that you and then
[03:32:36.800] you vaporize it. So you have somebody's
[03:32:38.319] cell phone coordinates. Suddenly that
[03:32:39.840] person is no more. This is like a scalar
[03:32:42.720] weapon in the ufology.
[03:32:44.479] >> I'm not going to talk garbage stuff. I'm
[03:32:46.560] just going to say imagine that this
[03:32:48.080] existed,
[03:32:49.279] >> right? So, you know that you can
[03:32:52.160] transmit energy and hurt something and
[03:32:54.000] you know that you can transmit nutrinos
[03:32:55.760] through an entire planet and they'll go
[03:32:57.680] through. You just don't know how to
[03:32:58.960] recombine nutrinos on the other side.
[03:33:02.239] Right? So, you know, it it's
[03:33:03.920] theoretically I don't want to get into
[03:33:05.920] it. I'm just trying to say imagine you
[03:33:07.680] have some imagination. You say if I can
[03:33:09.680] have a beam of nutrinos because I could
[03:33:11.840] direct a charged particle and then I get
[03:33:13.600] a decay and that gives me the momentum
[03:33:15.680] in this particular direction. Now can I
[03:33:17.359] refocus the nutrinos and get them to
[03:33:19.279] convert on the other side a protect
[03:33:21.600] particular is there any way to induce
[03:33:23.680] that. That's a theoretical idea. I don't
[03:33:26.160] see any way of doing it.
[03:33:29.120] But what if you had such a weapon and it
[03:33:31.040] was easy?
[03:33:33.760] Now, you'd say, "Okay, are you telling
[03:33:35.279] me that everyone on Earth can build
[03:33:37.520] their own and just point it and vaporize
[03:33:40.800] stuff,
[03:33:42.399] right? That'd be terrifying. What if you
[03:33:44.720] could unhook the uh the true vacuum of
[03:33:47.439] the of the Higs field and get some kind
[03:33:50.000] of vacuum decay?" Like, we don't know
[03:33:53.600] whether hidden in physics,
[03:33:57.680] our power is so vast that anybody who
[03:34:00.000] sees what could happen keeps their mouth
[03:34:02.239] shut.
[03:34:05.760] We just don't know. Now, the one thing
[03:34:08.479] that I believe, and again, you you guys
[03:34:10.319] don't have to to believe it, but I
[03:34:13.600] believe that if geometric unity is as
[03:34:16.640] rich as I say it, it doesn't even have
[03:34:18.399] to be correct. Just has to be rich.
[03:34:23.040] It is inconceivable to me that there is
[03:34:26.239] no interest in it
[03:34:28.479] from the very people who funded
[03:34:31.840] my education.
[03:34:34.720] Office of Naval Research funded my
[03:34:36.880] graduate education and the National
[03:34:39.120] Science Foundation found it uh funded my
[03:34:42.319] post doctoral position. I believe I was
[03:34:46.239] put on a Department of Energy grant
[03:34:47.760] which is very unusual for a
[03:34:48.960] mathematician because Isidor Singer had
[03:34:51.279] one. None of those people have any
[03:34:55.120] interest whatsoever
[03:34:57.040] in what I'm saying, which is fascinating
[03:34:59.359] because even if it's wrong, I wouldn't
[03:35:01.200] take the chance.
[03:35:03.200] It's a studied level of disinterest that
[03:35:05.680] doesn't really add up. Like I can tell
[03:35:08.239] you lots of people whose theories are
[03:35:09.840] almost certainly wrong. If I were the
[03:35:12.640] government, I would want to keep tabs on
[03:35:14.319] every last one of the competent people.
[03:35:17.279] Doesn't matter whether they're wrong.
[03:35:18.399] They're just dangerous. What What if
[03:35:20.160] they're right?
[03:35:22.239] Do you have a mental model on why this
[03:35:24.160] stuff is coming out more now post 2017
[03:35:28.000] this New York Times article? Well, the
[03:35:29.680] things are breaking. There was a regime
[03:35:32.239] that is breaking.
[03:35:34.479] Like I was thinking about posting an
[03:35:37.120] interview between Brian Green and Ed
[03:35:39.439] Whitten that was done recently without
[03:35:42.399] editorial
[03:35:44.479] just to indicate how crazy the level of
[03:35:47.359] string theorist madness is because it's
[03:35:50.800] you know this phrase in Latin reips or
[03:35:53.600] the thing speaks for itself. I don't
[03:35:55.920] have to throw
[03:35:58.160] pot shots at it.
[03:36:01.359] The claim
[03:36:03.680] that you know
[03:36:06.640] string theory is about to figure it all
[03:36:08.160] out is a joke in and of itself. So
[03:36:11.920] imagine that that was the blocking
[03:36:13.680] mechanism to keep people from doing you
[03:36:16.560] know dangerous physics work as per Andre
[03:36:19.920] and Horvitz.
[03:36:22.239] It's expiring
[03:36:26.160] and
[03:36:27.760] I think that a lot of things are
[03:36:29.200] happening right now because the old
[03:36:31.040] order that was set up to manage all this
[03:36:34.239] is two generations three generations out
[03:36:36.560] from the architects. We had these genius
[03:36:39.200] administrators like Vanavar Bush
[03:36:42.640] and they set up these structures and the
[03:36:44.640] structures worked pretty well but then
[03:36:47.200] they didn't pass the knowledge of what
[03:36:48.960] the structures were and how all these
[03:36:50.479] tacid understandings and cryptic
[03:36:52.479] arrangements worked so that the modern
[03:36:55.040] people who've inherited the structures
[03:36:56.720] basically don't even understand what
[03:36:58.080] they're for.
[03:37:00.080] You know, I talked to the provost of a
[03:37:02.080] UC university, major research
[03:37:04.479] university. He had no idea how the laws
[03:37:08.080] had been changed to secretly benefit
[03:37:10.239] universities for doing particular kinds
[03:37:12.080] of work. So very often what happens is
[03:37:14.960] is that the architects die and they they
[03:37:17.200] leave a zombie. We seem to be in a
[03:37:20.000] zombie era.
[03:37:21.840] It's a little cargo cult. And then you
[03:37:24.000] probably have people at the top freaking
[03:37:25.760] out saying we need to get in front of
[03:37:27.439] this and actually reorganize as uh our
[03:37:31.120] multi-polar nuclear world gets more and
[03:37:35.040] more hot.
[03:37:37.200] >> But how how strange that you can't talk
[03:37:39.600] to your own top people.
[03:37:42.000] >> Yeah, it's weird. And as it pertains to
[03:37:44.000] legacy program, the [clears throat]
[03:37:45.439] people at the top panicking might also
[03:37:47.439] be disappearing such that awareness of
[03:37:49.920] the problem could be dying. Well, I'm
[03:37:52.800] explaining modern UFO disclosure through
[03:37:55.279] this idea of, you know, national
[03:37:58.000] security that we would we would actually
[03:37:59.680] try to get this stuff out. But yeah, it
[03:38:02.160] is this weird cloak and dagger
[03:38:04.000] tongue-in-cheek sort of like it's not uh
[03:38:07.040] overt at all. It's still like like even
[03:38:09.760] you know you you mentioned this sort of
[03:38:11.520] you know theoretical directed energy
[03:38:13.760] weapon where you could take anybody out
[03:38:16.080] remotely in this perfectly precise way
[03:38:18.720] across the world. I don't know if you
[03:38:20.880] caught this part of the age of
[03:38:22.000] disclosure. Eric Davis says in 1989 we
[03:38:24.880] should have brought this up with him.
[03:38:26.239] 1989 uh the Soviets uh engaged in a UFO
[03:38:30.239] crash retrieval where they were able to
[03:38:32.960] derive a directed energy weapon from
[03:38:35.200] this particular craft.
[03:38:37.439] And
[03:38:39.439] that's a fascinating claim, right? Like
[03:38:41.359] I I don't know what to make of that, you
[03:38:43.040] know? How do you how do you know that? A
[03:38:45.200] B.
[03:38:46.720] So you are saying some of this stuff is
[03:38:48.479] functional and it works its way into
[03:38:51.040] weapons that we now know, you know, the
[03:38:54.000] Department of War are scaling up
[03:38:55.680] publicly. Uh and so like this whole idea
[03:38:59.200] that we haven't made any progress is
[03:39:00.800] actually kind of bogus, but it's being
[03:39:03.840] used in these extremely dystopian ways.
[03:39:07.279] Okay, but let me just ask,
[03:39:11.200] how do we reconcile the fact that all
[03:39:13.279] three of us have talked to so many
[03:39:15.120] people,
[03:39:17.920] which can't all be lying about what
[03:39:19.520] they're saying. It's just I see no world
[03:39:22.160] in which that's possible.
[03:39:26.080] And nobody has any firsthand
[03:39:30.560] incontrovertible stuff that would make
[03:39:32.239] this a done deal. It it does weirdly
[03:39:34.960] feel like the Epstein thing,
[03:39:37.920] you know, how is it that there is
[03:39:40.239] >> either a lot of people are implicated
[03:39:41.920] that are publicly appearing around this
[03:39:43.760] topic who are talking about it and
[03:39:45.600] they're implicated but they don't want
[03:39:46.800] to say they're implicated or the tip of
[03:39:49.840] the iceberg doesn't look like the rest
[03:39:51.200] of the iceberg and uh intentional
[03:39:53.680] vagueness is being used with words like
[03:39:56.080] crash retrieval and biologics and I
[03:39:59.600] don't heir on that side of things given
[03:40:01.520] how just how high up the people are
[03:40:04.000] saying this stuff how overwhelming uh
[03:40:06.319] the circumstantial evidence seems to be
[03:40:08.399] overwhelming. It's overwhelming, but you
[03:40:11.120] have to think probabilistically. And I,
[03:40:13.200] you know, I always try to, you know, put
[03:40:15.760] a healthy check on people who are
[03:40:17.920] hardcore in UFO world who are sure about
[03:40:20.960] discrete, you know, org charts in the
[03:40:23.680] reverse engineering problem. Like, how
[03:40:25.200] can you be sure of anything? You know, I
[03:40:27.200] think you have to think
[03:40:28.560] probabilistically about all this stuff.
[03:40:30.319] >> This is not the most imaginative
[03:40:31.760] solution, but another alternative to
[03:40:34.000] reconcile that fact is that some of them
[03:40:35.840] are lying and they are firsthand.
[03:40:37.439] >> Well, that's what I was just saying.
[03:40:38.560] because that's the red line. Maybe
[03:40:39.920] >> I think you're telling stories that are
[03:40:42.479] like more than one
[03:40:44.399] >> about what could be going on so that we
[03:40:46.960] don't
[03:40:47.279] >> Yeah, let's do it.
[03:40:47.840] >> So that we don't get committed to one.
[03:40:49.920] >> Yeah,
[03:40:50.239] >> excellent idea.
[03:40:51.040] >> So I think the taking everything at face
[03:40:54.560] value story is that there is this
[03:40:58.319] decadesl long UFO crash retrieval and
[03:41:01.279] reverse engineering program. It probably
[03:41:04.000] existed prior to 1933, but it became
[03:41:06.399] formally instantiated in the 33 Magenta
[03:41:09.439] crash in Italy. This is all hypothetical
[03:41:12.000] in the Magenta crash in Italy and then
[03:41:14.080] that was transferred to the US under
[03:41:15.600] FDR. You had Roswell in 47. You had
[03:41:19.439] Trinity in 48. You have these sort of
[03:41:21.680] sequential uh uh nuclear related UFO
[03:41:25.840] crashes. you have the office of global
[03:41:27.680] access under the CIA in the early 2000s
[03:41:30.319] under Doug Wolf doing rapid response you
[03:41:33.279] know retrievalss all over the world. Um
[03:41:36.800] and this kind of convoluted org chart
[03:41:40.000] structure where uh the locked and
[03:41:42.160] northrups are the tip of the you kind of
[03:41:44.720] the fingertips and uh you know uh CIA uh
[03:41:49.040] you know um um science and technology
[03:41:52.080] and and DOE and uh uh um you know DoD
[03:41:56.239] are kind of at the top and so you you
[03:41:58.399] could you could have that entire
[03:41:59.760] narrative and just take that at face
[03:42:01.279] value. I think another possibility
[03:42:04.640] would be something like
[03:42:07.120] uh aerial phenomena show up around
[03:42:10.479] nuclear weapons and energy grids and
[03:42:13.680] that is this clear pattern. It's global.
[03:42:15.920] It's ubiquitous. It's exists in the US
[03:42:18.239] but it also exists totally outside the
[03:42:20.000] US. Um those aerial phenomena also seem
[03:42:24.800] to be provoked by weird high energy
[03:42:27.840] physics experiments. So, uh, lasers,
[03:42:31.359] high energy lasers, um, you know, high
[03:42:34.080] voltage experimentation, uh, particle
[03:42:36.319] accelerators, things of that nature seem
[03:42:38.319] to attract this weird aerial phenomena.
[03:42:40.960] We don't really know what the aerial
[03:42:42.479] phenomena is. We actually have uh some
[03:42:46.399] prosaic, you know, human terrestrial
[03:42:49.920] physics breakthroughs that have led to
[03:42:51.840] novel propulsion modalities
[03:42:54.479] from some of these kind of, you know,
[03:42:56.479] topological physics anomalies that we
[03:42:58.479] figured out midcentury. And we actually
[03:43:00.720] do have propulsion based on them. So we
[03:43:03.359] have, you know, real craft that seem
[03:43:06.479] like they they fly like UFOs, but we're
[03:43:08.640] running this tech protection thing by
[03:43:10.720] intentionally conflating this aerial
[03:43:12.560] phenomena that is very, you know,
[03:43:15.199] bizarre and worthy of scientific
[03:43:16.720] inquiry, but we just don't understand.
[03:43:18.640] we were conflating that with just this,
[03:43:22.160] you know, kind of more exotic black um
[03:43:25.840] you know, uh uh not reverse engineering
[03:43:28.080] program but uh uh craft program that is
[03:43:31.760] that is human craft. So that would be
[03:43:33.840] number two. And then number three is
[03:43:35.920] like MC West territory or something
[03:43:38.160] where it's like you know there is no
[03:43:40.720] aerial phenomena around nuclear sites.
[03:43:42.720] You know there are no anomalies there.
[03:43:44.720] All the topological physics you know
[03:43:46.800] Biffield Brown Ning Lee stuff is all BS.
[03:43:50.479] Uh you know all you know conventional
[03:43:53.279] physics models you know are going to run
[03:43:56.000] the world for forever. And um you know
[03:43:59.040] this is all a scop like it's literally
[03:44:01.120] all like you know this crazy sort of you
[03:44:04.399] know government lunacy thing. I don't
[03:44:06.560] know would you guys say there's an
[03:44:07.680] option four or five that you'd like to
[03:44:09.520] add?
[03:44:10.399] >> Hard to say. So one possibility is let's
[03:44:13.040] imagine
[03:44:15.120] let's imagine that
[03:44:18.880] the atomic weapons were not developed
[03:44:21.279] during war but during peace time inside
[03:44:24.080] of a national lab.
[03:44:26.880] There'd be a question about should we
[03:44:28.560] reveal that this is possible,
[03:44:33.199] right? There would be a huge debate as
[03:44:35.680] to how to how to do work on this thing
[03:44:40.080] um
[03:44:42.960] and whether we should reveal it to the
[03:44:44.560] world or should reserve it as a zero day
[03:44:46.560] exploit.
[03:44:49.920] >> So that would be option four,
[03:44:51.920] >> I guess. New taxonomy.
[03:44:54.465] [laughter]
[03:44:55.199] Um,
[03:44:55.760] >> is that option agnostic of where the
[03:44:57.920] technology came from?
[03:44:59.439] >> Well, so imagine for example that the
[03:45:02.080] government figured out something in
[03:45:04.000] physics that isn't the whole thing, but
[03:45:08.319] it's powerful enough to do one or two
[03:45:10.080] things that haven't been done before and
[03:45:12.319] we wanted that in reserve. You can
[03:45:14.800] imagine that the entire system would
[03:45:17.279] say, would you please stop digging? We
[03:45:19.199] want to keep the zero day exploit. It's
[03:45:21.120] a matter of national security. Don't
[03:45:23.920] make us reveal this.
[03:45:25.520] >> That thing though would need to be
[03:45:28.239] neatly adjacent to UFO crash retrievals.
[03:45:31.520] They would need to intersect.
[03:45:32.720] >> I don't want to talk about crash
[03:45:33.600] retrievals until I've been to one.
[03:45:35.920] >> But you know what I'm saying.
[03:45:36.960] >> No, I don't know what a crashed
[03:45:38.319] retrieval is.
[03:45:39.760] >> What I'm saying is if that's being used
[03:45:41.520] as passage material for some other
[03:45:43.279] secret weapons program, the two probably
[03:45:46.319] need to surface level look alike
[03:45:48.880] somewhat for that to be an effective
[03:45:50.640] cover. So that's that's the thing,
[03:45:53.840] right? Like
[03:45:57.040] so you remember when we attacked Iran,
[03:45:58.960] we sent one squadron of B2 bombers in
[03:46:01.760] one direction, one another. That was my
[03:46:04.800] principle, an example of whenever we do
[03:46:07.040] something cool, we do something fake. So
[03:46:10.880] invasion of the operation overlord
[03:46:14.319] D-Day and the beaches of Normandy was
[03:46:16.560] cool. and Operation Bodyguard and
[03:46:19.520] Fortitude were fake because we never
[03:46:21.439] actually invaded Norway as we said we
[03:46:23.760] were going to do. Um,
[03:46:27.680] this could be the fake program to
[03:46:29.439] something super cool.
[03:46:31.520] >> Sure.
[03:46:32.720] And
[03:46:34.640] another aspect of this, if we're going
[03:46:36.160] to just talk about crazy stupid
[03:46:37.439] theories, is there's a strategy
[03:46:40.720] with I think like malarial mosquitoes or
[03:46:44.880] where you release a bunch of sterilized
[03:46:46.880] males
[03:46:48.560] into the world and sterilized males
[03:46:51.279] effectively mate with the females but
[03:46:53.840] leave no offspring.
[03:46:56.720] And it's a way of controlling
[03:46:59.520] mosquitoes. One possibility is that one
[03:47:02.319] of the reasons we kicked all of the
[03:47:03.680] Americans out of our physics programs
[03:47:06.000] and science programs is that we wanted
[03:47:08.560] to sterilize the world so that it didn't
[03:47:11.600] catch up to us what we'd already done.
[03:47:14.640] It's crazy idea, but why else should you
[03:47:17.359] be, you know, having 27% of your PhDs
[03:47:21.439] granted to Chinese nationals
[03:47:25.040] in sensitive areas? Just doesn't make
[03:47:27.040] any sense. So one possibility is that we
[03:47:28.640] use string theory to sterilize India.
[03:47:31.439] Let's say there are lots of Indian
[03:47:32.720] string theorists and they're not making
[03:47:34.319] any progress and they're extremely
[03:47:35.840] arrogant about string theory.
[03:47:39.199] You know these are crazy ideas. Uh
[03:47:41.760] another possibility as somebody once
[03:47:43.840] said to me or as somebody said to me
[03:47:46.800] relatively recently,
[03:47:49.199] you know, Eric, you don't need to rely
[03:47:50.479] on the government. You can just go up
[03:47:51.920] and look for yourself. The keep idea
[03:47:54.880] being that you just need to get adjacent
[03:47:56.560] to sensitive places and you'll see these
[03:47:58.640] things everywhere.
[03:48:01.040] >> Like this isn't that big of a deal.
[03:48:02.880] They're always there.
[03:48:04.560] >> Well, that's what I always find so
[03:48:07.680] frustrating is for the, you know, the MC
[03:48:10.080] West option, the Midwest scenario, the
[03:48:12.239] super skeptic thing. It you spend like a
[03:48:15.680] few days on this or literally like you
[03:48:17.920] probably walk around one of these sites
[03:48:19.840] or something. You go to the bar near one
[03:48:21.840] of them. Something's going on. The
[03:48:24.560] amount of smoke without fire is insane.
[03:48:28.000] >> No, no, no. The the question is when you
[03:48:29.840] see smoke at this level, the question is
[03:48:31.600] what is the nature of the fire? There
[03:48:33.279] are different fires,
[03:48:34.239] >> but there is
[03:48:34.720] >> or there's a smoke machine
[03:48:36.399] >> or there's a smoke machine,
[03:48:37.520] >> right? Like in other words,
[03:48:39.279] >> or there's a really good spoofing
[03:48:41.279] technology that we're all not aware of
[03:48:43.120] or something.
[03:48:43.760] >> Well, exactly. And and so, you know, my
[03:48:46.160] feeling unfortunately is that the UFO
[03:48:48.560] world is so polluted
[03:48:51.920] that I just don't want to deal with it
[03:48:53.199] at all.
[03:48:53.920] >> Sure.
[03:48:54.399] >> Um,
[03:49:00.160] look, I believe we can leave.
[03:49:03.600] And if you believe you can leave, you
[03:49:06.239] have to imagine that you're being
[03:49:07.520] visited.
[03:49:10.720] So, it makes sense for me that I'm being
[03:49:13.920] visited.
[03:49:15.920] I can't understand why they keep
[03:49:17.680] interacting with governments and nobody
[03:49:19.760] can get good footage and we don't have
[03:49:22.960] more.
[03:49:24.640] But on the other hand, I would have to
[03:49:26.960] say that the Epstein story was
[03:49:30.640] pretty contained
[03:49:33.600] and you were seen as a little kind of
[03:49:35.279] crazy if you created a world view out of
[03:49:38.800] the EPC like the the the the Pizzagate
[03:49:41.680] people seemed ridiculous four or five
[03:49:44.720] years ago.
[03:49:45.120] >> No, no, no, they didn't.
[03:49:48.720] Pizzagate
[03:49:50.800] looked to me like an amalgam,
[03:49:55.439] something real, something fake. Like for
[03:49:59.040] example, the particular pizza parlor
[03:50:02.640] and the guy who shot up the roof and all
[03:50:04.800] that, you know, it was perfect. Don't be
[03:50:07.520] like the guy who brings a gun into a
[03:50:09.279] pizza parlor and shoots the roof
[03:50:10.800] thinking that he's tracking pedophiles.
[03:50:14.399] Also, what does it really mean
[03:50:15.920] pedophiles? Like, do do we even think
[03:50:17.680] about this? Is there such a clamoring to
[03:50:20.479] do horrible things to children and that
[03:50:22.160] these people are natural leaders of the
[03:50:24.960] world? Well, now we're getting into
[03:50:27.199] weird territory because
[03:50:30.239] not only was pedophilia, which alone is
[03:50:34.479] just disgusting discuss in the context
[03:50:37.600] of Epstein,
[03:50:39.279] but like weird like conditioning
[03:50:42.800] rituals and things to like dissociate.
[03:50:46.080] >> Weird at all. This is normal. You see,
[03:50:53.439] it used to be
[03:50:55.840] that uh homosexuality could play the
[03:51:00.479] role
[03:51:02.239] of pedophilia.
[03:51:04.560] That two gay guys
[03:51:07.279] would be so terrified of the having
[03:51:09.359] their secret revealed
[03:51:11.520] that they'd be willing to do almost
[03:51:13.199] anything to avoid that revelation.
[03:51:16.640] >> It's a stain that can be used
[03:51:18.880] weaponized.
[03:51:19.920] >> Well, but I would say utilized. Yeah.
[03:51:22.239] Like hazing rituals,
[03:51:24.399] >> it's easy to see them as brutal,
[03:51:26.720] >> but that's not the function they serve.
[03:51:28.399] It's like people don't understand what
[03:51:29.680] the mob is. The mob is a contract
[03:51:32.640] enforcement service for enterprises that
[03:51:35.279] cannot use the courts. It's not violent
[03:51:38.239] because it's recreationally violent and
[03:51:40.080] it's not violent because these people
[03:51:41.439] love violence. The idea is you have to
[03:51:44.160] enforce a drug contract or a lone
[03:51:46.080] sharking contract,
[03:51:48.319] you know, or or a gambling some somebody
[03:51:51.279] has to pay up.
[03:51:52.880] >> So the notion would be pedophilia was
[03:51:54.960] used as an enforcement system.
[03:51:56.960] >> Pedophilia is trust,
[03:51:58.800] >> right?
[03:52:00.560] >> Nobody wants to say that, but that's
[03:52:01.840] what I think it is.
[03:52:02.880] >> You force people in that circle to
[03:52:04.479] commit these crimes and then
[03:52:06.960] >> how do I know how do I know I can trust
[03:52:09.520] person A? It's always a question. Do we
[03:52:12.479] come from the same ethnic group? That's
[03:52:14.080] not trust. That's black. That's low
[03:52:15.760] trust. No,
[03:52:16.399] >> it's blackmail.
[03:52:17.199] >> No,
[03:52:19.359] it's consequence.
[03:52:21.439] It's shared consequence.
[03:52:23.439] >> And the key point is shared consequence
[03:52:25.279] is a resource and ritual and all of
[03:52:27.439] these things are used to direct that
[03:52:30.319] resource.
[03:52:32.080] What you're seeing in the Epstein world
[03:52:33.760] is a high trust network.
[03:52:38.160] I think it's Yeah, I was I guess it's an
[03:52:39.760] enforcement network. It's like a, you
[03:52:41.199] know, made man mafia system sort of
[03:52:43.520] thing.
[03:52:44.160] >> There's an email from the girlfriend
[03:52:46.080] that alleges that he got in deeper than
[03:52:48.880] he meant to. He was told to do this. He
[03:52:51.680] didn't really mean any of it. It it just
[03:52:53.840] came out in the latest trench. And it
[03:52:55.920] speaks to this notion of an enforcement
[03:52:57.680] campaign, an enforcement infrastructure.
[03:53:00.800] >> But my my claim is is that in general,
[03:53:03.520] most of us are unfamiliar
[03:53:06.319] with how effective silent systems work.
[03:53:10.800] If you think about the Velace papers and
[03:53:13.120] you know how the the mob lost Omera and
[03:53:16.000] the innovation of the Rico X and all
[03:53:18.000] that kind of stuff
[03:53:20.560] that was about I think that the rule was
[03:53:23.600] is that you killed every informant
[03:53:26.880] up to second cousins.
[03:53:28.960] >> Jesus Christ.
[03:53:30.080] >> Yeah. Like completely over the top and
[03:53:32.239] insane. But that's how it worked.
[03:53:37.199] And what was the what was the way that
[03:53:39.279] these people referred to each other as
[03:53:40.800] men of honor? Honor is the proxy system.
[03:53:44.239] Of course, I'm going to honor you and
[03:53:45.359] you're going to honor me because it's
[03:53:46.720] too dangerous. It's too dangerous to
[03:53:49.120] contemplate anything else. My guess is
[03:53:52.160] is that right now there's no one that
[03:53:54.000] can be hung out to dry because the first
[03:53:55.840] person who gets hung out to dry, you saw
[03:53:57.520] Bill Clinton saying, "Of course I'd love
[03:53:59.600] to talk to Congress. Bring them on."
[03:54:02.399] >> It's crazy.
[03:54:03.680] >> Well, why is that? I don't think he
[03:54:06.080] wants to talk to Congress. What I think
[03:54:07.680] he wants to do is to say if you make me
[03:54:10.239] the fall guy, think about think about
[03:54:12.160] what you're saying.
[03:54:13.840] >> It's a little shot across the bow.
[03:54:15.840] >> I think it got a lot to say.
[03:54:17.439] >> Trump's Trump's dump of these documents
[03:54:20.080] was 3 million shots across the bow.
[03:54:22.160] >> Yeah, I think so, too. Also, we should
[03:54:24.880] note
[03:54:26.399] this was probably the sanitized version
[03:54:29.359] of these documents.
[03:54:31.199] >> No, no, no. This isn't even the
[03:54:32.399] sanitized version of the documents.
[03:54:34.479] They've also set up the idea of okay
[03:54:36.239] well these three million of the last
[03:54:37.359] year are getting every but the other the
[03:54:38.960] other three million. So then what what
[03:54:40.640] is everybody going to do? They're going
[03:54:41.439] to chant we want the other three
[03:54:43.120] million. Okay fine fine we'll give you
[03:54:46.479] the last of them and you just fell into
[03:54:48.800] the trap.
[03:54:50.560] >> Who said there were six million
[03:54:51.920] documents?
[03:54:53.040] >> Right. Tell me something.
[03:54:56.160] If this guy ran a hedge fund that was a
[03:54:58.239] multi-billion dollar currency trading
[03:55:00.319] hedge fund. How many documents does a
[03:55:03.120] hedge fund throw off just due to
[03:55:05.520] compliance?
[03:55:07.680] Right? Nobody's making any sense at all.
[03:55:13.520] What you're seeing is a bunch of deeply
[03:55:15.199] grooved people not thinking for
[03:55:16.720] themselves
[03:55:18.720] and they're they're happy to repeat the
[03:55:21.920] heterodox version of the script that
[03:55:23.680] they're handed. But it's not the
[03:55:25.680] heterodox who are writing that.
[03:55:29.760] >> It's really crazy. Well, [laughter]
[03:55:32.442] [gasps] I'm officially demoralized and
[03:55:34.479] depressed.
[03:55:36.239] >> Don't do that, Jesse.
[03:55:37.359] >> No. Well, I I appreciate I mean,
[03:55:39.040] sometimes, you know, the the truth sucks
[03:55:40.960] and uh you're a very incisive thinker
[03:55:43.840] and you have a way of elucidating uh
[03:55:46.319] things. Sometimes they're dark truths
[03:55:48.640] and realities uh that others don't. So,
[03:55:51.359] I I I really appreciate your brain and
[03:55:54.000] um
[03:55:55.199] >> but can we just finish it positively?
[03:55:57.120] >> Yeah, let's do it. Yeah. How do we do
[03:55:58.399] that? Well, if you don't mind, imagine
[03:56:01.920] that we threw off this UFO yoke
[03:56:05.199] >> and imagine that we just pushed on one
[03:56:07.840] one particular place, which is Eric
[03:56:10.000] Davis saying, "We have things that defy
[03:56:13.199] the laws of physics and no physicists."
[03:56:16.880] Imagine that the UFO community got
[03:56:18.640] really smart instead of doing what it
[03:56:20.239] always does and said, "We're going to
[03:56:21.920] push on this one thing. How can you be
[03:56:24.319] threatened
[03:56:26.160] by craft that do not obey the laws of
[03:56:28.479] physics
[03:56:30.239] and make sure that the one type of
[03:56:33.199] person who could possibly help with this
[03:56:35.040] is to be found nowhere on the scene.
[03:56:38.640] Right? So the opportunity
[03:56:42.160] is is that if Tulsi Gabbard or JD Vance
[03:56:45.520] or any one of these people sees this and
[03:56:48.319] says I could change that tomorrow. I
[03:56:52.160] could snap my fingers and get an
[03:56:54.800] allocation of several million dollars
[03:56:56.640] and I could get a few theoretical
[03:56:58.160] physicists
[03:57:00.000] would change absolutely everything
[03:57:01.439] because one of the top theories has to
[03:57:04.239] be that the reason you can't have a
[03:57:06.080] theoretical physicist on this is that
[03:57:07.920] there are no graph that defy the laws of
[03:57:09.600] physics.
[03:57:11.760] I hope they put that to the test because
[03:57:14.319] Eric Davis is actually on record as part
[03:57:17.040] of James Fox's last movie saying if you
[03:57:19.920] give me blanket immunity, I will say
[03:57:22.160] everything I know. And so I I I hope
[03:57:24.319] that they are able to just, you know,
[03:57:28.080] dress these people down. We could in a
[03:57:30.880] in a in a better world that we're not
[03:57:32.640] that far from push to have the one group
[03:57:36.640] of people who could crack this case for
[03:57:38.479] us, the detectives of our choice,
[03:57:41.279] inserted. They were trained on our
[03:57:43.279] dollars. They're supported on our
[03:57:45.920] dollars. We have an arrangement with
[03:57:47.600] them. It's basically like not calling
[03:57:49.359] Delta Force when you've got a hostage
[03:57:51.520] rescue situation.
[03:57:52.399] >> Can I up the ante?
[03:57:53.520] >> Yeah. an interdisciplinary symposium
[03:57:56.560] where maybe the physicists are at the
[03:57:58.479] top, they're hanging out, but you also
[03:58:01.520] might have some other people. Don't
[03:58:03.520] bring in the mushrooms and the
[03:58:04.640] consciousness. Let's [laughter] just do
[03:58:06.319] theoretical physic physics and leave the
[03:58:09.120] rest for Burning Man. [laughter]
[03:58:11.760] >> Fair enough. Well, to be continued.
[03:58:13.439] That's a whole other debate we can have
[03:58:16.080] or [laughter] whatever, but I agree with
[03:58:17.840] the Burning Man issue. Okay. Well, thank
[03:58:20.720] you, Eric. This was awesome. Jack,
[03:58:22.800] appreciate you. This is a lot of fun. I
[03:58:25.120] think this is going to be a historic
[03:58:26.020] [music] episode. Thanks, Jets.
[03:58:28.319] >> All right, cool.
[03:58:33.225] [music]
[03:58:55.439] Woo! [music]