Leslie Kean — Lehto Files interview on writing the 2017 NYT UAP article, Jan 14, 2022

• YouTube: https://youtu.be/yqBnZGrSPbg
• Extraction: youtube_transcript.py (timestamps), 2026-05-28
• Significance: Kean on how the 2017 NYT story came together. Primary for ../../sources/kean-career-and-claims.

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[00:00:00.320] What's up, guys? I'm Chris Leato,
[00:00:02.159] retired F-16 pilot turned UAP
[00:00:04.880] investigating YouTuber. I'm very proud
[00:00:07.919] of this video and feel very humbled and
[00:00:10.080] lucky to get a chance to talk with
[00:00:12.880] someone like Leslie Kaine. She is just a
[00:00:14.880] titan in the field of unidentified
[00:00:16.640] aerial phenomena. We talked through her
[00:00:19.279] whole career essentially starting back
[00:00:21.359] in 2000. She started in 2000 with her
[00:00:23.600] first article, how she had to fight to
[00:00:25.840] get that article into print all the way
[00:00:27.920] till 2017 where she was a contributing
[00:00:31.119] author for the glowing auras and black
[00:00:34.320] money article in the New York Times. So
[00:00:36.160] the famous New York Times article that
[00:00:37.840] has really really propelled us to where
[00:00:40.719] we are today on the cusp of getting a
[00:00:43.280] office built in the US government to
[00:00:45.920] research unidentified aerial phenomena.
[00:00:48.160] I found Leslie Kane through her book,
[00:00:50.079] UFOs, Generals, Pilots, and Government
[00:00:53.199] Officials Go on the Record. It's
[00:00:54.640] recommended to me by one of my patrons,
[00:00:57.280] and I can't recommend it enough. It's an
[00:00:59.359] amazing book. If you're new to the
[00:01:00.800] subject, summarizes many of the best
[00:01:02.559] cases as 18 contributing authors as
[00:01:05.199] well. And if you are not new to the
[00:01:06.960] subject, you probably know who Leslie
[00:01:08.960] Kane is, and I've read that book. Her
[00:01:10.960] next book, Surviving Death, I'm very
[00:01:12.799] excited to read it. We talked through
[00:01:14.080] all facets of the phenomena. She
[00:01:16.960] answered all of my questions um in an
[00:01:19.600] amazing way. She has been doing this for
[00:01:21.360] 22 years. I mean, she was grinding
[00:01:23.119] behind the scenes for 17 years. She
[00:01:26.320] argued for for years to get a UFO office
[00:01:30.000] built in the US government and secretly
[00:01:32.560] there was one and she was the person who
[00:01:34.720] found out how that went, how she felt
[00:01:37.840] that day, um and many, many other
[00:01:40.960] aspects. It's an amazing interview. I've
[00:01:43.200] watched it already a few times and
[00:01:45.759] learned so much. So, I hope you enjoy
[00:01:47.840] it. I really enjoyed it. Thanks as
[00:01:49.439] always, my patrons. Thank you. If you
[00:01:51.280] want to become a patron, support the
[00:01:52.880] channel. I only make money for the
[00:01:54.640] channel through patron donations or
[00:01:56.479] YouTube advertising. So, thanks for
[00:01:58.960] watching. Thanks for being here. Enjoy
[00:02:01.520] the interview. Hello, welcome. I'm here
[00:02:03.280] with Leslie Kane. Recently finished her
[00:02:04.880] book, UFOs, Generals, Pilots, and
[00:02:08.000] Government Officials Go on the Record. I
[00:02:09.840] thought it was just an amazing book.
[00:02:11.200] compilation of really everything as I'm
[00:02:13.120] starting my career, I guess, as a as a
[00:02:15.280] eupfologist. Encapsulated kind of
[00:02:16.959] everything I was I was looking for, you
[00:02:19.120] know, trying to find. So, it was it was
[00:02:20.560] great to have it all in one book. So,
[00:02:21.920] I'm so happy you're here. Thanks for
[00:02:23.760] coming on the show. So, welcome, Leslie
[00:02:26.319] Kane.
[00:02:26.879] Thanks. Very pleased to be on your show.
[00:02:30.080] Thanks for having me.
[00:02:31.040] Excellent. Yes. And so, you you wrote
[00:02:32.879] that that book uh many years ago. You
[00:02:35.920] think it's still interesting for people
[00:02:37.360] like me? I mean, at least up until 2010.
[00:02:41.760] I mean, there's a lot that's happened
[00:02:43.120] since 2010. So, you know, but I mean,
[00:02:46.400] the cases in that book are still really
[00:02:48.239] solid. The only thing that's there
[00:02:50.480] there's been a question about is that
[00:02:52.000] Belgian photo, which I used to just love
[00:02:54.959] that photo, and I went to Belgian and
[00:02:56.720] got to see the original and all this
[00:02:58.400] stuff, you know.
[00:02:59.680] Yeah.
[00:03:00.160] But the shooter of that photo has since
[00:03:02.080] come out and said that he faked it. And
[00:03:05.440] there's some question about whether he
[00:03:06.879] really did or not because he's in
[00:03:08.400] litigation with somebody who owns the
[00:03:10.080] copyright has been making money on and
[00:03:12.000] there's this whole mess going on and he
[00:03:14.080] refused to
[00:03:16.159] uh set it up the way he did it and show
[00:03:19.760] investigators how he hoaxed it when they
[00:03:22.080] went and asked him. So, who knows? But
[00:03:25.280] the that's really disappointing that
[00:03:27.040] that picture has been called into
[00:03:28.560] question. But I think everything else in
[00:03:30.080] the book if you just want, you know,
[00:03:31.360] it's just very basic understanding. And
[00:03:34.400] I think the fact that it was many
[00:03:36.000] chapters were written by others and it's
[00:03:38.480] really a shared book with many other
[00:03:40.720] people.
[00:03:40.959] Exactly.
[00:03:41.840] Yeah.
[00:03:42.159] And that you know that I give them
[00:03:43.920] credit. I mean I think there's four
[00:03:45.920] generals in the book and a former
[00:03:47.760] governor and all kinds of highle people
[00:03:49.360] who wrote their own chapters so people
[00:03:51.840] can hear directly from them not just me
[00:03:54.319] saying what they said you know quoting
[00:03:56.720] them or describing them. And to me,
[00:03:59.200] that's a lot of what the power of the
[00:04:00.560] book is, is the writings of the actual
[00:04:02.879] people themselves who contributed.
[00:04:04.799] Yeah. The governor of Arizona and he was
[00:04:07.200] a retired full bird.
[00:04:08.400] Yeah. He's retired, but that was such an
[00:04:10.480] interesting story. I mean, the whole
[00:04:11.840] Phoenix Lights case, I'm sure any of
[00:04:14.480] your viewers are who are, you know, into
[00:04:16.560] UFOs are familiar with that story. But
[00:04:19.359] the fact that he, you know, ridiculed it
[00:04:22.000] at a press conference at the time with
[00:04:24.080] putting dressing up as chief of staff as
[00:04:25.919] an alien and then 10 years later
[00:04:28.639] admitted that he actually saw it himself
[00:04:31.120] and then started to advocate for this
[00:04:34.000] issue and for the establishment of a
[00:04:35.919] government agency, which is something
[00:04:37.600] I've been advocating for. He came on a
[00:04:40.160] press conference in 2007 that I
[00:04:41.919] organized with James Fox, which was the
[00:04:44.479] same year he had come out with this
[00:04:46.560] admission and he sat up at the podium
[00:04:49.280] and and made a statement about it and
[00:04:51.440] said, "We need a government agency to
[00:04:53.520] get to the bottom of this." So, it was
[00:04:55.360] an incredible transformation,
[00:04:57.600] incredible story.
[00:04:59.680] Yeah. And it's Yeah. It's just
[00:05:01.280] interesting for a lot of reasons, you
[00:05:02.639] know. It's just uh he Yeah. He he
[00:05:05.040] basically says, "Yeah, between 8 and
[00:05:07.199] 8:30 on the evening of March 13, 90 1997
[00:05:10.560] during my second term as governor of
[00:05:12.080] Arizona, I witnessed something that
[00:05:13.520] defied logic and challenge my reality. A
[00:05:16.240] massive delta-shaped craft silently
[00:05:18.639] navigating over the squa peak in the
[00:05:21.039] Phoenix Mountain Preserve." Um, so he he
[00:05:24.080] sees that, he clearly sees it. Uh, and
[00:05:26.720] then he goes to talk to his wife, you
[00:05:28.479] know, and he says, "As soon as I reached
[00:05:29.680] home, I told my wife Ann about it. She
[00:05:31.199] listened attentively and we both thought
[00:05:32.960] long and hard about whether I should
[00:05:34.400] make it public. Uh eventually, at least
[00:05:36.800] for the time being, we reached the
[00:05:38.320] conclusion that I should not because of
[00:05:39.919] the ridicle from the media.
[00:05:42.400] Isn't that crazy? Isn't that crazy?
[00:05:45.360] Yep. And he also was afraid that it
[00:05:47.680] would just take over everything and he
[00:05:49.759] wouldn't even be able to do his job as
[00:05:51.280] governor. He just thought, you know, but
[00:05:54.479] you know, it may have been it may have
[00:05:55.759] been the wrong choice he made and he
[00:05:57.840] upset a lot of his constituents, but he
[00:05:59.840] later acknowledge that and apologize
[00:06:02.639] basically. I mean, I don't think
[00:06:04.400] something like that would happen today.
[00:06:06.160] So, that shows how far we've come.
[00:06:08.400] So, you think it's changed? Yeah.
[00:06:10.080] Oh, yeah. I mean, can you imagine if you
[00:06:12.080] know, hundreds and hundreds of witnesses
[00:06:13.919] saw something flying over Arizona now?
[00:06:18.240] You know, I mean, it would be so well
[00:06:20.800] documented. I mean, there wasn't any,
[00:06:22.479] you know, there was no video that
[00:06:23.919] survived that event. And there would be
[00:06:27.120] so much documentation now. And I think
[00:06:29.680] the climate has changed so much that a
[00:06:32.400] governor who happened to see it would
[00:06:34.080] not have to feel like he couldn't say
[00:06:35.600] anything. That's my opinion. I just
[00:06:37.840] don't think it would happen.
[00:06:38.639] Yeah.
[00:06:39.360] Yeah. He was also a retired air, you
[00:06:41.520] know, retired pilot,
[00:06:43.600] right? He knew how to recognize things.
[00:06:45.919] He he was smart.
[00:06:47.840] I actually the location where he saw it
[00:06:51.520] and, you know, got to know him very well
[00:06:53.919] starting in 2007. So, um, he's a very
[00:06:56.880] honorable guy and I really admire him
[00:07:00.720] for speaking out about it and doing
[00:07:02.319] everything he's done to help move this
[00:07:03.680] forward. He was a real up until the time
[00:07:06.000] of my book, you know, between 2007 and
[00:07:08.000] 2010, he was a really important figure
[00:07:09.759] along with John Podesta, sort of helping
[00:07:12.080] get this thing out. And he actually
[00:07:13.759] wrote his own little maybe three-page
[00:07:16.080] chapter in my book. It was short, but it
[00:07:17.919] was really wonderful to have him explain
[00:07:20.400] this in his own words, why he did it and
[00:07:22.960] why he feels differently about it now.
[00:07:26.240] Yeah, we need more people like him
[00:07:28.400] speaking out obviously because, you
[00:07:30.639] know, you say he's an honorable man and
[00:07:32.160] it sounds like he is and he did make the
[00:07:34.400] tough decision, you know, like he had to
[00:07:36.960] say to all those thousands of people
[00:07:38.720] that he lied essentially, right? He
[00:07:41.280] wrote in the book here, you know, he
[00:07:42.319] talked to his wife. They they talked it
[00:07:44.240] over and then he even an honorable man
[00:07:47.840] made the decision to to lie and say,
[00:07:50.000] "No, I didn't see anything." Because of
[00:07:51.680] ridicule, you know, it's just so strong.
[00:07:53.440] I mean, I don't know if he actually lied
[00:07:54.960] because he was never asked if he saw it.
[00:07:57.360] He just didn't volunteer the
[00:07:58.800] information,
[00:08:00.639] I guess. I mean,
[00:08:01.919] I mean, and I don't know if you want to
[00:08:03.199] call it a lie. Anyway, that's a minor.
[00:08:05.120] It's a minor point.
[00:08:06.319] It's a minor point. I I mean, I I think
[00:08:08.560] Yeah. Yeah.
[00:08:09.759] Yeah. Go ahead.
[00:08:10.800] No, I mean in I think it's a lie. It
[00:08:14.560] sounds like a lie to me. You know, if
[00:08:16.879] you're Yeah. If you're the leader and
[00:08:21.520] all these hundreds of people are calling
[00:08:23.120] and then you say, "Yeah,
[00:08:25.599] it must have been flares." I mean, he
[00:08:26.960] obviously knew it wasn't those those
[00:08:28.240] flares.
[00:08:30.479] Something different. Yeah.
[00:08:31.599] I don't think he ever claimed that it
[00:08:32.959] was something else. He actually tried to
[00:08:34.800] get information about it.
[00:08:36.399] He he called the Air Force bases. he
[00:08:38.560] called, you know, he did everything he
[00:08:39.760] could to try to get information and he
[00:08:41.599] couldn't get anything.
[00:08:43.919] So, he just sort of moved on, you know,
[00:08:45.680] and didn't pay attention to it. And then
[00:08:47.200] he was just that he described it as sort
[00:08:49.360] of people being in a state of hysteria.
[00:08:51.360] So, he wanted to calm it down and make
[00:08:53.360] light of it. He just it just, you know,
[00:08:56.080] didn't work.
[00:08:57.360] Yeah.
[00:08:57.920] Did not work.
[00:08:59.360] Yeah, that was a crazy one. Uh, and you
[00:09:01.279] know, I even went to Luke Air Force
[00:09:03.279] Base. That's where I did my my initial
[00:09:05.279] training for F-16s,
[00:09:07.279] but that was in 2004,
[00:09:10.399] 2003.
[00:09:11.920] And we heard nothing about I I did I
[00:09:15.440] learned about the Phoenix lights later
[00:09:16.880] after I left, you know, right years
[00:09:18.800] later. There was nothing in the Air
[00:09:20.160] Force. Nothing mentioned about it. Yeah.
[00:09:23.680] Zero. Cool. Well, let let's go through a
[00:09:25.920] couple of these questions. So,
[00:09:28.000] uh this is from Rob Warki. Um, what made
[00:09:31.600] you go from investigating wrongful
[00:09:33.920] wrongful convictions to UFOs? Um, seems
[00:09:36.800] like a strange segue into the field.
[00:09:39.680] Yeah, it is a strange I totally get that
[00:09:41.680] response. And it was it was more I mean
[00:09:43.600] I did report a lot on wrongful
[00:09:45.040] convictions when I was at KPFA radio in
[00:09:47.200] Berkeley, but I was really more involved
[00:09:50.560] with reporting on Burma. I mean that was
[00:09:52.480] my uh you know I was very involved with
[00:09:55.360] I went to Burma and I did a lot of
[00:09:57.120] articles with a with a another
[00:09:59.519] journalist about the problems with the
[00:10:01.839] country of Burma and its struggle for
[00:10:03.200] democracy. So that was that and wrongful
[00:10:06.160] conviction. So I was focused on the
[00:10:07.519] reason I I mean I had a sort of
[00:10:10.240] curiosity about UFOs. I'd read a few
[00:10:12.399] books, but it was just like a interest
[00:10:15.360] like it very low-level interest like it
[00:10:17.600] would be for anybody who might have read
[00:10:19.120] like Whitley Strber's Communion or
[00:10:20.959] something like that, you know.
[00:10:22.160] Yeah. Um and then I got this report in
[00:10:25.279] the mail as I wrote about in in my book
[00:10:27.760] um from a colleague in France called the
[00:10:29.519] Kmeta report which some people may know
[00:10:32.079] what that was but it was a 90page study
[00:10:36.240] undertaken by highlevel people in France
[00:10:38.720] and they were all retired but they were
[00:10:40.560] highlevel military people there were
[00:10:42.399] generals there was a fourar I think a
[00:10:44.240] three star I don't remember exactly but
[00:10:45.920] their ranks but a number of generals
[00:10:48.160] there was an admiral in the group there
[00:10:50.160] was the former head of the government
[00:10:51.600] agency in France who had you know
[00:10:53.519] investigated UFOs for a long time. The
[00:10:55.920] chief of police, scientists, they formed
[00:10:58.640] this group. They spent three years
[00:11:00.800] investigating this and they only studied
[00:11:03.680] official, you know, aviation and
[00:11:05.200] official cases from around the world.
[00:11:06.880] The very best cases there are. uh and
[00:11:09.760] they they wrote up this 90-page study
[00:11:11.760] about it and they came to the conclusion
[00:11:13.680] that the best the best explanation for
[00:11:17.360] the objects that they studied was what
[00:11:19.760] they called the extraterrestrial
[00:11:21.519] hypothesis.
[00:11:23.040] And they talked about that was the most
[00:11:24.800] valid and the most rational
[00:11:27.519] and way to explain
[00:11:30.000] these cases for which they had been able
[00:11:32.079] to basically rule out conventional
[00:11:34.160] explanations because these were cases
[00:11:35.760] where there was enough data to do that.
[00:11:38.399] And so I was sitting there like I get
[00:11:40.160] this thing in the mail and my colleague
[00:11:41.600] in France says you know this is this
[00:11:43.920] reports this is if you have an advanced
[00:11:45.920] copy of an English translation the only
[00:11:47.839] person in America who has it. This
[00:11:50.160] report is going to be released and I
[00:11:51.680] think Rockefeller had had paid for the
[00:11:53.680] translation and everything. And he said
[00:11:55.680] do you want to do you want to do
[00:11:57.279] something with it? And I said yes. And I
[00:11:59.519] just felt, you know, when you have
[00:12:02.640] people at that level saying that it is
[00:12:04.959] likely, it's the best hypothesis that we
[00:12:07.839] have extraterrestrial visitors coming
[00:12:09.760] here. I mean, it was like, whoa, you
[00:12:12.160] know, this is huge. Um, so it was
[00:12:15.760] because of the access to a report at
[00:12:18.160] that level written by people at that
[00:12:20.399] level who, you know, carried a lot of
[00:12:23.519] weight and I thought to myself, what if
[00:12:25.920] the equivalent people in America made
[00:12:28.959] the same statement that these French
[00:12:30.480] people were making that would be it
[00:12:32.320] would rock the world, right? It would be
[00:12:34.800] front page news. So I just recognized it
[00:12:37.440] as a really big story and found it
[00:12:40.880] completely fascinating and I thought you
[00:12:42.800] know this is I thought I had a real
[00:12:44.240] scoop and so I spent quite a quite a few
[00:12:46.320] months um looking into this the topic
[00:12:49.120] because I didn't know much about it and
[00:12:51.839] uh eventually pitched a story to a lot
[00:12:54.480] of editors who I had published with
[00:12:56.079] before from various papers and in those
[00:12:58.560] days you could publish freelance
[00:13:00.160] articles in Newton it's was a very
[00:13:03.120] different climate of for journalists
[00:13:05.360] than it is now. But I had published a
[00:13:07.680] whole bunch of stories on Burma with a
[00:13:10.000] lot of newspapers. So they knew me and
[00:13:11.680] they liked my work. And so I went to
[00:13:13.040] these places and it was really hard. I
[00:13:15.839] didn't even use the word UFO when I made
[00:13:17.680] the pitch, but they just couldn't handle
[00:13:20.000] it. Except for the Boston Globe, this
[00:13:22.240] one editor at the Boston Globe who I had
[00:13:24.720] written probably three or four stories
[00:13:26.240] with, and she really respected me and
[00:13:28.240] she was willing to do this story, but it
[00:13:31.680] was really touchandgo. and she almost uh
[00:13:34.560] dro at one point she said forget it
[00:13:36.320] we're not doing it. I mean it's hard to
[00:13:38.399] imagine today when every journalist out
[00:13:41.760] there wants to cover this but in those
[00:13:44.160] days that was like in n that was in 2000
[00:13:46.639] that it actually was published finally
[00:13:49.760] 20 years ago 21 years ago 22 years ago
[00:13:52.480] it was so different Chris I mean it was
[00:13:55.360] like these people and the only reason
[00:13:57.040] she was able to run it was because she
[00:13:58.959] was the boss of the forum of the section
[00:14:01.519] in which it was published is like a
[00:14:03.440] Sunday news analysis section she had
[00:14:05.760] nobody above her that could tell her
[00:14:08.240] what to do.
[00:14:09.680] The other papers that I went to there,
[00:14:11.279] they some of them said, "Oh, yeah, we
[00:14:12.880] want this." And then they'd come back
[00:14:14.079] and say, "Sorry, I didn't make it
[00:14:16.000] through the, you know, through the chain
[00:14:18.000] of command here or whatever." But it was
[00:14:20.639] like this risky thing and it was a very
[00:14:22.720] conservative story. I mean, it wasn't
[00:14:25.199] saying a lot of crazy stuff at all. So,
[00:14:28.000] it's interesting for me to reflect back
[00:14:30.160] on that and realize, my god, things have
[00:14:32.880] really changed. But in any case, that's
[00:14:34.880] how I got started. Once that story came
[00:14:36.880] out, I was so hooked on this topic. I
[00:14:40.000] just wanted to learn more. I was also
[00:14:41.920] shocked by how little it got a huge
[00:14:44.560] response from the UFO people,
[00:14:46.880] but how little response it got from, you
[00:14:49.680] know, Congress. I expected Congress to
[00:14:51.760] be all over it or, you know, the the
[00:14:53.839] leading investigative journalists of the
[00:14:55.680] day to like jump all over it and write
[00:14:57.519] like long stories for the New Yorker or
[00:14:59.440] whatever. I was just a freelancer. I
[00:15:01.600] didn't have the kind of access that
[00:15:04.880] journalists have who work for something
[00:15:06.480] like the Washington Post or the New York
[00:15:08.160] Times or something. So, I thought
[00:15:10.480] they'll take it they'll they should take
[00:15:12.079] the next step. But nobody did anything.
[00:15:13.920] And that was sort of my wakeup call for
[00:15:15.760] like how bizarre it was
[00:15:17.600] that this topic the way it was treated
[00:15:19.760] and everybody acted like UFOs didn't
[00:15:21.839] even exist. So that was even that was
[00:15:24.320] part of the motivation for me to keep
[00:15:26.320] going with it plus my profound curiosity
[00:15:29.680] and what this whole thing was my
[00:15:31.440] realization that like you know these
[00:15:34.160] don't seem to be like they're from here
[00:15:36.399] but I don't know. So I spent so anyway I
[00:15:38.720] just eventually um stopped working at
[00:15:41.440] this radio station where I was working
[00:15:43.040] and and did this full-time but that's
[00:15:44.959] how I started and I never I was like on
[00:15:47.600] fire after that you know I never never
[00:15:49.839] stopped.
[00:15:51.519] Yeah. So you've but um but you wrote a
[00:15:54.240] afterlife book right after your UFOs you
[00:15:57.199] uh your next book was afterlife uh which
[00:15:59.519] is I yeah I'm very excited to read that
[00:16:01.120] one as well. Um
[00:16:02.160] that was a long I mean that was way
[00:16:03.759] later. It came out in 2017
[00:16:06.720] I think. So I started working on it in
[00:16:09.279] 2013. So yeah it was a few years after
[00:16:11.360] my book came out in 2010. And so my book
[00:16:13.199] in 2010 was sort of a culmination of 10
[00:16:15.279] years
[00:16:16.800] of reporting and investigation and press
[00:16:19.360] conferences and all kinds of stuff. Um
[00:16:22.880] and then after that the History Channel
[00:16:25.360] did a special based on my book and then
[00:16:27.600] I kind of move thought you know I've
[00:16:30.320] really said all I can say about UFOs
[00:16:32.079] right now and my publisher said do you
[00:16:33.759] want to write a book about something
[00:16:34.800] else
[00:16:35.680] and I was really interested in this all
[00:16:37.360] this evidence for the survival of
[00:16:39.120] consciousness. So then I jumped into
[00:16:40.560] that. Yeah you're right. And then In
[00:16:42.639] 2017 when everything changed, I was
[00:16:45.120] really back full-time on UFOs again.
[00:16:48.079] Oh, excellent. So, now you're back on
[00:16:50.480] UFOs full-time. Is that you consider it?
[00:16:53.199] Yeah. I mean, I I still do some work
[00:16:56.320] related to the other topic, which I I'm
[00:16:58.880] interested in both of them. Very
[00:17:00.160] interested in. And some people even are
[00:17:02.480] discussing how they might relate to each
[00:17:04.640] other in some way.
[00:17:06.160] That's a whole other question. But um
[00:17:08.240] yeah, I mean the book I wrote called
[00:17:09.839] Surviving Death, it was made into a
[00:17:12.640] six-part series, documentary series for
[00:17:14.880] Netflix. So that just came out about a
[00:17:16.799] year ago. So I was very involved with
[00:17:19.199] that as well with the production of that
[00:17:21.280] series. And now I'm working on a a
[00:17:24.000] series on UFOs for a major network. I'm
[00:17:26.480] not allowed to say which one, but that's
[00:17:28.960] been occupying my all my time. Yeah. So
[00:17:30.640] I would say, you know, right now I'm
[00:17:32.880] really focused on UFOs.
[00:17:35.520] Oh, excellent. And so you really think
[00:17:38.160] it's totally changed the the the
[00:17:40.559] landscape has completely changed from
[00:17:42.160] 2000?
[00:17:43.200] I really do. I mean, if you think about
[00:17:45.120] May of 20 of last year of 2021, do you
[00:17:48.400] remember the media frenzy that took
[00:17:50.799] place right before this June report came
[00:17:53.600] out?
[00:17:54.799] I mean, everybody was covering this and
[00:17:57.760] then it was on 60 Minutes and The New
[00:18:00.400] Yorker wrote a huge feature story on it,
[00:18:03.039] you know? I mean, it was like they
[00:18:05.280] couldn't get enough of it in the media.
[00:18:06.799] When you think back to what I had to go
[00:18:08.799] through to get this one story published
[00:18:10.480] in 2000, it's it's a radical change.
[00:18:13.760] It's all because the government has come
[00:18:15.679] around and acknowledge that they're
[00:18:17.039] real. It's now official. And that gives
[00:18:19.360] the media permission to write about it
[00:18:22.240] without feeling like they're going to be
[00:18:23.440] ridiculed.
[00:18:25.600] And do you and but I I still get the
[00:18:27.760] sense that it they leave it out. You
[00:18:29.440] know, I still get the sense that most
[00:18:31.120] people or most of those editors will
[00:18:34.160] will choose to not go with with the UFO
[00:18:37.039] story, you know, if they had other
[00:18:38.799] options. I still get that impression,
[00:18:40.640] huh?
[00:18:41.280] I don't know. It probably depends on
[00:18:42.400] what editors you're talking about. I
[00:18:43.840] mean, certainly Politico is really into
[00:18:46.640] this. The Hill has been writing about it
[00:18:48.480] a lot lately. Um, the New York Times is
[00:18:52.080] hard to get them to cover it, but they
[00:18:54.960] did a I co-wrote a series of stories the
[00:18:57.360] New York Times between 2017 2020 that
[00:19:00.640] had a huge impact. So, I mean, I don't
[00:19:03.760] know. I just know that in that period of
[00:19:05.919] time, right before that June report came
[00:19:07.760] out, it was I mean, you could not
[00:19:10.960] believe every single media person wanted
[00:19:13.280] to cover this. Um, and I think I don't
[00:19:18.000] know. I I think they pretty much do now.
[00:19:20.400] I don't know of any I don't know of
[00:19:22.320] places that ridicule it really. I'm sure
[00:19:24.400] there are bloggers and stuff that
[00:19:27.039] ridicule it, but I think it's taken
[00:19:28.559] pretty seriously overall now.
[00:19:31.600] And so looking back, um
[00:19:34.880] that was I mean you were a contributor
[00:19:37.039] author on that the glowing auras uh 2017
[00:19:40.559] article. Um and that that article I
[00:19:43.679] think started the whole modern
[00:19:44.799] disclosure movement or I don't know at
[00:19:46.080] least from my from my perspective seems
[00:19:48.960] like that started this most recent
[00:19:50.720] movement. Um can you talk about how
[00:19:52.880] making that article creating it? Uh any
[00:19:55.520] interesting things around it?
[00:19:56.559] Yeah, I mean it did. I think it started
[00:19:58.400] this whole snowballing thing that
[00:20:00.160] happened. But
[00:20:01.120] yeah,
[00:20:01.520] it was really Lou Alzando who started it
[00:20:05.280] because the way it all happened was I
[00:20:07.919] was invited to to meet with Lou Alzando
[00:20:10.720] in October. I think it was around
[00:20:12.000] October 4th of that year. Um I went to a
[00:20:15.520] meeting in Washington and Chris Melon
[00:20:17.440] was present and Jim Semian and Hal
[00:20:20.400] Pudof. Um, and they were the ones that
[00:20:23.600] actually had invited me to meet Lou
[00:20:25.360] because Lou was resigning from I think
[00:20:27.840] everybody knows that Lou Alzando was the
[00:20:29.840] for the head of the government program.
[00:20:32.720] He was the head of a Department of
[00:20:34.480] Defense program that had been studying
[00:20:35.919] UFOs in secret for a decade and nobody
[00:20:40.240] even knew this program existed. And I
[00:20:41.919] was out there in the world advocating
[00:20:43.760] for a government agency to be set up.
[00:20:45.919] You know, of course, I wouldn't have
[00:20:47.440] wanted it to be like that, which was a
[00:20:49.280] totally secret one.
[00:20:50.720] Yeah. But anyway, so I was, you know,
[00:20:53.360] they ca, I guess Lou, they had talked
[00:20:55.280] about it a bit with um to the stars
[00:20:57.440] academy before I met Lou, I think. Maybe
[00:21:00.799] it was after that. I don't remember. But
[00:21:02.720] any case, I knew nothing about this. And
[00:21:04.480] and for me to go so I got to go down to
[00:21:07.200] Washington. I sat down sat right across
[00:21:10.240] the table from Lou for about over three
[00:21:12.480] hours with these incredible people
[00:21:14.720] there. And they showed me all this these
[00:21:17.760] documents. They showed me the three
[00:21:19.440] videos. Uh Lou didn't, but they did. His
[00:21:22.320] colleagues did. Uh document the famous
[00:21:24.640] letter from Harry Reid that has now been
[00:21:26.320] released. You know, Lou's resignation
[00:21:28.080] letter which was had been written to to
[00:21:30.320] to General Mattis, Secretary of Defense.
[00:21:32.720] I read that letter and I just could not
[00:21:34.400] believe what he was saying. You know, it
[00:21:36.640] and then I just got to talk to him for a
[00:21:38.400] long time. And the idea behind this
[00:21:40.640] meeting was to take this to the New York
[00:21:43.039] Times because he was resigning because
[00:21:45.840] he needed attention to be brought to
[00:21:47.840] this from the outside because he was not
[00:21:50.400] getting the support he needed from
[00:21:52.240] inside. So um that that moment that was
[00:21:57.360] probably the peak moment Chris of any
[00:22:00.000] moment in all I mean after covering this
[00:22:03.039] thing for you know 17 years it was like
[00:22:06.640] oh my god I can't I couldn't believe I
[00:22:08.320] was sitting at that meeting and hearing
[00:22:09.600] what I was hearing it was just
[00:22:11.120] mind-blowing to me
[00:22:12.480] you know
[00:22:12.799] it was 17 years I mean I did my first
[00:22:14.799] story in 2000 and this was in 2017 so
[00:22:18.320] you know it it just was I just was blown
[00:22:22.000] away by how important important it was
[00:22:23.679] and they had all the documentation
[00:22:26.400] they everybody was going on the record
[00:22:28.799] they had the videos it was just clear to
[00:22:31.840] me that it was a huge story so I then
[00:22:34.960] went to but I'd never I had no
[00:22:36.559] relationship to the New York Times but
[00:22:38.159] my close friend Ralph Blumenthal
[00:22:40.080] colleague and friend
[00:22:41.840] was a freelancer for the times and he'd
[00:22:43.760] been on staff there for decades and he
[00:22:45.600] was at that point still freelancing for
[00:22:47.520] the New York Times and he's the guy who
[00:22:49.679] wrote the book on John Mack that just
[00:22:52.080] came out and he and I had many
[00:22:54.480] conversations over the years about UFOs.
[00:22:56.640] He's very interested in it and he'd
[00:22:58.080] written on abductions and experiencers
[00:23:00.640] before. And so I went to him and we he
[00:23:03.840] wrote a pitch to the lead editor at the
[00:23:05.600] New York Times and then we got a meeting
[00:23:07.440] with Mark Misetti who is the head of uh
[00:23:10.320] the investigations bureau and the in the
[00:23:12.080] Washington bureau. He happened to be in
[00:23:13.679] New York. We sat down with him, showed
[00:23:15.440] him everything,
[00:23:17.280] and uh he took it back to Washington.
[00:23:19.280] And about a week later, we got the green
[00:23:20.880] light, and we were assigned to work with
[00:23:22.480] Hela Cooper, who is this amazing
[00:23:25.039] reporter from the Washington Bureau, who
[00:23:27.840] awardwinning, and she's their defense
[00:23:30.240] department person. So, she has access to
[00:23:33.520] incredible access to the defense
[00:23:35.200] department. And what a gift it was to
[00:23:37.840] work with her. Um they and uh that
[00:23:40.799] that's how it all started. And then we
[00:23:42.480] just spent a couple of months getting
[00:23:44.159] the story together and doing interviews.
[00:23:46.080] And you know, we got an interview with
[00:23:48.559] Harry Reid. Actually, Hela flew out to
[00:23:51.200] Nevada to meet personally with Harry
[00:23:53.679] Reid. That was so important to the
[00:23:56.640] story. We had no idea what he was going
[00:23:58.799] to say, you know,
[00:24:01.120] whether it would be just a five minute
[00:24:02.640] thing, but she sat with him for a long
[00:24:04.240] time and he talked all about the funding
[00:24:06.799] process that went on and why he set it
[00:24:09.280] up and how he's glad he did it. and it
[00:24:11.200] was just amazing. Um, and so, you know,
[00:24:14.400] that was a big part of it and just
[00:24:16.880] talking to Alzando and other people and
[00:24:20.240] laying out how the whole thing happened
[00:24:21.679] and then presenting the videos. So,
[00:24:24.400] that's how the whole story happened and
[00:24:26.240] it was on the front page of the Sunday
[00:24:28.320] paper which was the print edition. It
[00:24:30.880] came out on a Saturday and then a print
[00:24:32.400] edition on Sunday. So, and that's sort
[00:24:35.039] of what that led to, Chris, was members
[00:24:37.760] of Congress wanting to be briefed on
[00:24:39.679] this.
[00:24:40.640] Exactly.
[00:24:41.039] That's sort of what was the next step
[00:24:42.720] because they said there's a government
[00:24:45.919] program in the they didn't even know
[00:24:47.440] about it, right?
[00:24:48.960] Do has been has been studying this since
[00:24:51.760] 2007 and we don't know anything about it
[00:24:54.080] and it's like there are objects flying
[00:24:56.400] around. We don't know where they're from
[00:24:57.840] or what they are. They have incredible
[00:24:59.919] technology. Well, we want to know more
[00:25:01.360] about it. So they started to get briefed
[00:25:04.240] and that's sort of how the whole the the
[00:25:06.320] whole thing started to build towards
[00:25:07.919] where we are today.
[00:25:10.320] Wow. That's an amazing story. I mean
[00:25:12.000] when you think back
[00:25:14.240] in in anytime in the future, right, if
[00:25:16.720] this continues the way it appears to be
[00:25:19.039] going, it's going to lead back to that
[00:25:20.880] story, you know? It's very interesting,
[00:25:23.440] you know.
[00:25:24.159] Yeah. I mean, I just like I feel so
[00:25:26.400] fortunate to have been part of it. And I
[00:25:28.559] you know the the pe the reason it
[00:25:30.000] happened I think was because I knew
[00:25:31.440] Chris I'd known Chris Melon for quite a
[00:25:33.120] few years and I'd known Hal Puto off for
[00:25:35.039] a long time as well and they trusted me
[00:25:39.120] you know they had rec they recognized
[00:25:40.559] that I mean I had many conversations
[00:25:42.240] with Hal for so many years
[00:25:44.720] and um they wanted somebody who could
[00:25:47.760] cover this in the way that it should be
[00:25:50.000] covered with some kind of knowledge of
[00:25:51.600] the topic right and it would really take
[00:25:53.120] it seriously and so I
[00:25:54.799] I think I you know I felt really honored
[00:25:56.640] to be the person that they asked to to
[00:25:58.720] be that person. They also knew I had
[00:26:00.960] could probably get it into the door of
[00:26:02.320] the New York Times. So, yeah, it was um
[00:26:05.279] it was just amazing moments there. And
[00:26:08.799] and Lou was the it was literally the day
[00:26:12.559] he had resigned and he was really
[00:26:15.039] nervous. He didn't know what was going
[00:26:16.480] to happen to him
[00:26:17.679] at that point. you know, he didn't know
[00:26:19.679] what was going to happen to him in terms
[00:26:20.799] of how he was going to make a living and
[00:26:22.799] whether the DoD was going to come after
[00:26:24.640] him and whether there'd be repercussions
[00:26:26.320] for him and, you know, he was used to
[00:26:29.039] being in the shadows. He was a counter
[00:26:31.679] intelligence officer. He was not used to
[00:26:34.240] being out in the public arena. So, he
[00:26:36.880] was really I'll never forget how nervous
[00:26:40.880] he was basically. And think about where
[00:26:43.679] he has come since then. He's now and
[00:26:46.400] he's he and Chris Melon have played such
[00:26:49.200] an important role in over these last
[00:26:51.200] four years, but that first time I met
[00:26:53.919] him, you know, he didn't know what was
[00:26:55.919] going to happen.
[00:26:58.720] Yeah, he's definitely Yeah, he's I can
[00:27:01.760] imagine because um it was terrifying for
[00:27:04.799] me to publish anything, you know, and
[00:27:07.679] most people in the military as well, you
[00:27:09.279] know, you try and get we'd have media
[00:27:11.679] come to our squadron, you know, and it
[00:27:13.760] would be does anyone want to give an
[00:27:15.200] interview, you know, and everyone would
[00:27:16.480] just run, you know, like
[00:27:18.240] wow
[00:27:18.640] away from the media, you know, it's um
[00:27:21.360] I don't know why there's a there's a
[00:27:23.120] timid or shyness built into into the
[00:27:26.320] military, you know, They just don't like
[00:27:29.200] talking on camera, I think.
[00:27:32.000] Well, I think isn't it partly because
[00:27:33.679] people are afraid of repercussions to
[00:27:35.679] their job?
[00:27:37.360] I mean, if they talk about something as
[00:27:39.200] weird as UFOs, I mean, that's what we've
[00:27:40.640] been told by many pilots is that just
[00:27:42.480] there's a fear of ridicule and
[00:27:44.960] repercussion that might happen.
[00:27:48.080] Yeah. I think it's the same ridicule
[00:27:49.760] though that the I think it's just the
[00:27:51.760] human ridicule. Um, it's that same thing
[00:27:55.279] the governor felt, you know, we just
[00:27:57.440] talked about like why didn't he,
[00:27:59.440] you know, he's the governor, right? He's
[00:28:01.279] supposed to be the, you know, the the
[00:28:04.000] leader in charge. Uh, but he didn't
[00:28:06.559] he didn't come clean with his his uh
[00:28:08.640] constituents, right? The people he's
[00:28:09.919] supposed to be
[00:28:11.039] serving, right?
[00:28:12.000] Ultimately,
[00:28:13.279] um, I don't think it's a fault on him. I
[00:28:15.600] think it's it shows how difficult it is
[00:28:17.760] because he was able to to come out and
[00:28:19.919] say, "Hey, I I hit it. you know, I I
[00:28:22.799] made a mistake and I did see it. You
[00:28:26.640] know, he came out, right? I think that's
[00:28:28.559] the honorable person. I I think you're
[00:28:30.320] going to have many other thousand
[00:28:31.679] there's probably thousands of other
[00:28:32.880] people who are in that position who
[00:28:34.720] just, you know,
[00:28:36.480] didn't take the honorable way.
[00:28:38.240] It's also harder when people are active
[00:28:40.240] duty. Once they're retired, they're they
[00:28:42.240] feel much more comfortable in speaking
[00:28:43.600] out. I mean, that's just been
[00:28:44.960] consistently the case. And the same with
[00:28:46.960] pilots. Um, when we did our second story
[00:28:50.480] in the New York Times, which was in May
[00:28:52.000] of 2019, and we reported on the
[00:28:53.919] Roosevelt sightings, and we had Ryan
[00:28:56.480] Graves as our our main source, who ended
[00:28:59.360] up being on 60 Minutes in 2021. Um, it
[00:29:03.840] was so hard for us to get those pilots
[00:29:06.559] to go on the record. I mean, the only
[00:29:09.679] reason we got Ryan was he had done
[00:29:12.159] something for the History Channel, you
[00:29:13.440] know, so he'd already done it. But we
[00:29:15.840] spoke to probably seven other pilots or
[00:29:19.279] something like that and none of them
[00:29:20.720] would go on the record in the story.
[00:29:23.120] Yes.
[00:29:23.600] So, you know, I do think times have
[00:29:25.520] changed. I mean, even in the last even
[00:29:27.200] since 2019, I maybe more of them would
[00:29:29.360] be willing to talk now. And I think this
[00:29:31.360] recent legislation has sort of opened
[00:29:33.600] the door
[00:29:34.880] for people to to to feel comfortable
[00:29:37.600] doing it. I mean, our government is
[00:29:38.960] saying they want people to talk out.
[00:29:41.039] They want to know more. So things are
[00:29:44.240] going to have to change and I think more
[00:29:45.679] people are going to start coming
[00:29:46.799] forward.
[00:29:48.480] Yeah, I hope so. I mean, yeah, I'm
[00:29:50.240] waiting for any pilots to contact me.
[00:29:53.200] You know, my email's in the about page.
[00:29:55.279] So, if anyone wants to
[00:29:56.880] go on the record, man, I'll talk to you.
[00:29:58.640] Exactly. You're a fellow pilot. They
[00:30:00.399] should contact you.
[00:30:01.840] Yeah, I Yeah, I'm kind of surprised I
[00:30:04.000] haven't been contacted. I don't Maybe
[00:30:05.919] maybe it'll just take a little time. So,
[00:30:07.679] are you planning on writing any
[00:30:09.440] follow-up books?
[00:30:10.559] I don't know. maybe next year. Right
[00:30:12.559] now, I'm very involved with this this
[00:30:14.080] other this uh series that I'm helping to
[00:30:16.159] produce for a major network and that's
[00:30:18.960] full-time. So, I'm, you know, I I don't
[00:30:22.000] know. That's the answer to that
[00:30:23.360] question.
[00:30:23.919] Yeah. Excellent. Um, do you think we're
[00:30:26.640] heading towards uh disclosure
[00:30:28.720] or is it going to be a repeat of, I
[00:30:30.880] don't know, the 70 years of the past?
[00:30:34.320] Well, when you say disclosure, I'm never
[00:30:36.720] quite sure what that word means.
[00:30:38.320] I don't either. I don't know. you know,
[00:30:40.240] I'm relatively new as well. Uh, do you
[00:30:42.640] think we'll find out everything they
[00:30:44.240] know, the everything the government
[00:30:45.679] knows?
[00:30:46.480] Well, I think I mean, there's so much
[00:30:48.320] that's classified and I'm sure a lot of
[00:30:50.480] it's going to remain classified. So, I
[00:30:52.960] don't know. I don't know how much we're
[00:30:54.159] going to know about everything the
[00:30:55.679] government knows, but um, we've had
[00:30:59.440] incredible revelations.
[00:31:01.600] I mean, the government has acknowledged
[00:31:02.960] that UFOs exist and they've basically
[00:31:05.840] acknowledged that they're not ours,
[00:31:07.520] meaning American
[00:31:09.520] and they've almost said they're not
[00:31:11.679] Russian or Chinese. I mean, they've said
[00:31:13.760] we don't have evidence that they're
[00:31:15.200] Russian or Chinese.
[00:31:17.279] Um, and some other high level officials
[00:31:19.679] have spoken out and said, "I don't think
[00:31:22.240] I don't think they could be Russian or
[00:31:23.840] Chinese." I mean, if we get to a point
[00:31:26.880] where it becomes a fact that they're not
[00:31:30.480] Russian, Chinese, or American,
[00:31:33.520] I maybe that's disclosure as people
[00:31:35.919] define it. I don't know. But
[00:31:38.480] I think we're moving towards that point.
[00:31:41.679] And to me, that's a big moment. And
[00:31:44.000] we're almost there because if they're
[00:31:45.760] not from those three countries, they
[00:31:48.399] couldn't be somewhere. They couldn't
[00:31:50.159] have been made on Earth. Let's face it.
[00:31:52.480] Yeah.
[00:31:52.799] And I think that people like Kristen Gil
[00:31:56.000] Gillibrand and people in the
[00:31:58.000] intelligence committees who have been
[00:31:59.440] briefed on this and been given
[00:32:01.279] classified information, I think they
[00:32:03.679] know that these are not from here.
[00:32:07.200] And um it the pressure has to stay on
[00:32:10.159] them. I mean, the reason they're going
[00:32:11.360] to talk about this is because of
[00:32:13.840] pressure. You know, if the New York
[00:32:15.200] Times story had never happened and the
[00:32:17.600] briefings for Congress had never
[00:32:19.039] happened, then maybe we wouldn't even
[00:32:20.559] know anything still. You know, it's not
[00:32:22.399] like they want to talk about it. But
[00:32:24.720] that the door has opened and they don't
[00:32:26.480] have a choice at this point. And there
[00:32:27.840] is momentum. It's moving forward.
[00:32:29.760] There's so it can't go backwards. I
[00:32:31.840] really don't think it can.
[00:32:34.159] um with this legislation that just
[00:32:35.840] passed in the NDAA,
[00:32:38.880] we're going to have this office that's
[00:32:40.480] going to do all these things and uh
[00:32:43.120] provide reports and they're never the
[00:32:45.039] reports are never as as good as
[00:32:47.840] everybody wants. But I think we need to
[00:32:50.399] just be willing to look at this in
[00:32:52.000] stages and realize try to focus on what
[00:32:54.720] the good things are that have come out,
[00:32:56.399] the positive things. Even in the June
[00:32:59.120] 25th report, there were some important
[00:33:00.880] things that came out. So, I'm really I
[00:33:04.559] feel very positive about how things are
[00:33:06.559] going and um I don't know the way I see
[00:33:10.159] it is once it really becomes a certainty
[00:33:13.600] that they're not Russian, Chinese or
[00:33:15.120] American, we've crossed the line that we
[00:33:17.120] were in a new paradigm at that point and
[00:33:19.840] we're moving in that direction as far as
[00:33:21.440] I see it.
[00:33:22.159] The June 25th report, the preliminary
[00:33:25.200] assessment I thought was actually very
[00:33:26.720] good um
[00:33:28.000] because they put in the numbers, right?
[00:33:29.919] uh they put in actual numbers for
[00:33:32.640] incidents and they and they put in you
[00:33:34.960] know we have 80 that have multiple
[00:33:36.720] sensors on them you know 143 we don't
[00:33:38.799] know what it is unidentified and then we
[00:33:40.880] have 80 where we have multiple sensors
[00:33:43.440] um and the multiple sensors is really
[00:33:45.279] powerful for me
[00:33:46.720] you know because it's from different
[00:33:48.240] sources you know if you have radar and
[00:33:50.960] you have a visual observer you know
[00:33:53.200] that's two different mediums um it's
[00:33:55.360] pretty very strong and then they had
[00:33:57.760] eight you know eight they said 18 of
[00:33:59.600] those is they're doing um advanced
[00:34:02.000] maneuvering that we can't do,
[00:34:04.000] right? Yeah. No, that was all important
[00:34:06.080] and and it was in there that they said
[00:34:08.879] they're not American as I recall
[00:34:12.000] and they said we don't have evidence of
[00:34:14.399] them being Russian or Chinese, but of
[00:34:16.000] course we need to find out if they
[00:34:17.280] belong to an adversary.
[00:34:19.119] But you know that that was important
[00:34:21.599] even though people were upset there
[00:34:23.040] wasn't more. But the classified report
[00:34:25.760] obviously had more. And you know, it's
[00:34:28.320] what's really most important. I think
[00:34:29.919] Lou has made this point too, is that at
[00:34:31.839] this point, it's it's what's most
[00:34:34.159] important is that the the members of our
[00:34:36.079] government get as much information as
[00:34:38.000] possible. That's more important right
[00:34:40.240] now than the general public having it
[00:34:41.919] because the government are the ones that
[00:34:43.359] are going to move the whole thing
[00:34:44.480] forward. and that and they've been
[00:34:46.639] motivated now to create this office that
[00:34:49.280] that just passed
[00:34:51.520] um as a result of what they've been
[00:34:53.359] briefed on. So I mean that's something
[00:34:56.079] to celebrate even though we the people I
[00:34:58.880] think we have a much bigger right to
[00:35:01.599] information obviously than we've been
[00:35:03.359] granted. I mean why should they be able
[00:35:04.880] to sit on all of this
[00:35:06.400] but I know that there are people working
[00:35:08.400] on that who believe that and we just
[00:35:10.720] have to let it happen as you know
[00:35:13.599] everything has to happen in in the time
[00:35:16.079] that's required for it to happen if if
[00:35:18.720] things happen too soon it could backfire
[00:35:21.359] it could set us back in a way we just
[00:35:23.119] have to let it roll out and
[00:35:26.079] I think a lot of things are going to
[00:35:27.680] happen next year that are going to be
[00:35:28.960] exciting for everyone
[00:35:30.720] 2022 yeah I keep hearing that from
[00:35:33.119] different people. You know, there's
[00:35:34.320] several I know three different people
[00:35:36.160] I've talked to who are working on
[00:35:37.520] projects. They can't tell me what they
[00:35:38.960] are. Uh but they tell me it's it's going
[00:35:41.359] to be exciting.
[00:35:42.400] You know, if we get we're going to get
[00:35:43.680] more reports to Congress and we're going
[00:35:45.440] to get more they you know, unclassified
[00:35:47.280] reports have to be provided and there
[00:35:50.640] are people working on trying to get more
[00:35:52.640] photographs and videos released,
[00:35:55.119] which should happen because if they're
[00:35:58.079] not national security problems, why
[00:36:00.240] shouldn't the world have access to them?
[00:36:02.320] I mean there, you know, obviously there
[00:36:03.920] are going to be people that are going to
[00:36:05.440] try to resist that as much as possible,
[00:36:07.440] but um and what I think is really
[00:36:10.400] interesting too in the new legislation
[00:36:13.119] is the whole thing about health impacts
[00:36:16.000] and physiological effects of UFOs that
[00:36:18.320] are going to be reported on.
[00:36:20.480] She also talks they talk in this
[00:36:22.079] legislation about reports on efforts to
[00:36:24.880] capture or exploit
[00:36:27.119] yes
[00:36:27.760] discovered UAP. I mean that line
[00:36:32.000] efforts to capture or exploit discovered
[00:36:34.880] UAP.
[00:36:36.240] Yes.
[00:36:36.880] That's supposed to be included in the
[00:36:38.240] reports. I mean that has never been said
[00:36:40.320] before, you know.
[00:36:42.079] Yeah.
[00:36:42.800] I actually I don't but it's good to
[00:36:44.480] hear. Yes.
[00:36:45.520] Yeah. and field in there, you know,
[00:36:47.200] setting up teams of field investigators
[00:36:49.200] and they're
[00:36:50.000] science,
[00:36:51.520] the new coordinating with our allies is
[00:36:53.839] another really important component
[00:36:56.160] that is already happening behind the
[00:36:57.839] scenes, but it's written into the
[00:36:59.359] legislation that that's another mandate
[00:37:01.200] that we have to coordinate with our
[00:37:02.720] allies to find out what this what's
[00:37:04.560] going on here.
[00:37:06.160] I mean, um it's just such a a powerful
[00:37:09.520] bit of legislation if it as long as it
[00:37:12.560] plays out the way it's supposed to.
[00:37:15.280] Yeah, they did. I don't know. I'm not a
[00:37:17.359] 100% sure who wrote it, but they did a
[00:37:20.400] great job. I mean, they really did. Uh I
[00:37:22.480] thought they included everything we
[00:37:24.240] could possibly get besides forcing the
[00:37:26.160] government to somehow work with like the
[00:37:28.480] Galileo project or but I I don't think
[00:37:30.800] that's how that you can even do that
[00:37:32.480] anyway. I don't I don't know how you
[00:37:33.680] would
[00:37:34.400] they took that out, right? They had that
[00:37:35.760] in there earlier and then they took it
[00:37:37.280] out
[00:37:38.640] that they were going to link to Galileo
[00:37:40.480] and these some of these other citizens
[00:37:41.920] groups, but I'm sure that they're going
[00:37:43.599] to benefit from the work of the Galileo
[00:37:45.280] project. I think it's a great project
[00:37:46.800] and you know, but they can't they didn't
[00:37:48.960] write that into the legislation, but
[00:37:50.400] that's okay. Um,
[00:37:52.400] yeah, it had everything else.
[00:37:54.640] Yeah.
[00:37:55.119] Yes. So, in your experience, they're
[00:37:56.400] motivated. The Cong Congress has been
[00:37:58.160] really motivated now. I mean,
[00:37:59.920] well, a number of people are. I mean,
[00:38:02.000] you know, certainly Senator Gillibrand
[00:38:03.839] and and um who was behind this
[00:38:06.000] legislation and Senator Rubio, I mean,
[00:38:08.320] we've been hearing about him. I love the
[00:38:10.160] fact that it's so bipartisan.
[00:38:12.400] Yes.
[00:38:12.720] You know, it's just totally bipartisan.
[00:38:15.040] It has not been politicized. It's one of
[00:38:16.800] the few things that hasn't been
[00:38:18.160] politicized, you know. I love
[00:38:19.920] It really hasn't. Yeah. And then
[00:38:22.240] yeah, that should probably be what we
[00:38:23.760] focus on, you know, is is just keeping
[00:38:25.440] it
[00:38:27.040] bipartisan, not letting it devolve into
[00:38:29.680] these partisan arguments. I could see
[00:38:32.000] that maybe happening.
[00:38:33.280] I don't know. I don't really see it
[00:38:34.480] because the issue inherently is so
[00:38:36.640] apolitical. I don't know. Let's just
[00:38:38.720] hope it stays that way. Um, and also,
[00:38:42.000] Congressman Ruben Ggo has been behind
[00:38:44.240] this too. And I had a chance to meet him
[00:38:46.640] in Washington. And anyway, he he was the
[00:38:49.280] but he was one of the Congress people
[00:38:51.040] who was behind it. So there there are
[00:38:53.200] definitely and even Lindsey Graham came
[00:38:55.200] out in a press release through Rubio's
[00:38:57.599] office in support of this. So
[00:39:00.000] it's a pretty hard thing to not support.
[00:39:02.480] You know, it's a national security
[00:39:03.839] problem as they see it. And how could
[00:39:06.720] they not support UN, you know, things
[00:39:09.040] are flying around our Navy ships and
[00:39:12.160] buzzing our our pilots when they're in
[00:39:14.480] in protected airspace and we don't know
[00:39:16.720] what they are. I mean, who could
[00:39:19.040] possibly not stand behind trying to find
[00:39:21.680] out more about that, you know, I don't
[00:39:24.320] think there's much opposition to it. And
[00:39:26.560] they're also they have actually written
[00:39:28.160] in in some of these press releases the
[00:39:30.320] importance of overcoming the stigma. So
[00:39:33.200] they're recognizing that there is a
[00:39:35.359] stigma and that that we need to get
[00:39:36.880] beyond that and that's also really
[00:39:38.560] important.
[00:39:39.040] Yeah. That was in the preliminary
[00:39:40.320] assessment, right? Yeah. There's a big
[00:39:42.079] section in there uh just just denoting
[00:39:44.000] that there is a stigma.
[00:39:46.079] Exactly. And and Rubio's press release
[00:39:48.480] and or same with Jill Brent's press
[00:39:50.640] release. I mean they both said the same
[00:39:52.000] thing. They reiterated that. So, it just
[00:39:55.280] sort of takes the media off the hook and
[00:39:58.160] it takes witnesses off the hook and um
[00:40:01.520] it it invites everyone to care about it
[00:40:04.079] and I don't see how they I mean it may
[00:40:06.320] not be top priority for everybody.
[00:40:08.320] That's for sure.
[00:40:09.040] Yeah.
[00:40:09.599] But I don't think there's going to be
[00:40:10.720] opposition to it
[00:40:11.680] once it's written down like it is, you
[00:40:14.160] know, in law now, signed into law. I
[00:40:16.480] think all those military people, they
[00:40:18.880] should there should be no obstacle to
[00:40:21.040] them speaking now. You know,
[00:40:22.880] I agree. I mean, there probably still
[00:40:24.480] will be. There's still, you know, I
[00:40:25.839] think there's still fears of ridicule
[00:40:27.760] and stuff when you're active duty,
[00:40:30.079] but it's got to be have changed. It's
[00:40:32.800] got to be a lot better than it was. I
[00:40:35.200] mean, uh, and I think people like Dave
[00:40:37.119] Fraver have really been role models and
[00:40:38.960] Alex Dietrich, too, have been role
[00:40:41.119] models for to try to encourage others to
[00:40:44.160] do what they've done. Yeah. That's just
[00:40:46.720] so when you think back to where we were
[00:40:49.200] before 2017,
[00:40:51.599] to me it's just stunning how far we've
[00:40:53.599] come in the last four years and and
[00:40:55.119] we've ended up with this incredible
[00:40:57.440] legislation. And who would have ever
[00:40:59.839] thought this would happen.
[00:41:02.000] I mean, it's just, you know, incredible.
[00:41:05.440] Yes. So, you had when you were at that
[00:41:07.119] meeting, you know, in with Lou Alzando,
[00:41:11.440] did you think this was even possible?
[00:41:13.440] You know, maybe Yeah. At that time, did
[00:41:15.520] you think it would get to this point?
[00:41:17.440] I didn't think that far ahead, Chris.
[00:41:19.280] All I thought about was getting this to
[00:41:21.520] the New York Times.
[00:41:22.960] Yes.
[00:41:23.359] You know, period. I couldn't think
[00:41:24.880] ahead. Well, maybe someday we'll have
[00:41:26.560] legislation. No, I mean, you know, I I
[00:41:28.720] certainly knew it was a huge story and
[00:41:30.640] that it could it could, you know, it
[00:41:32.160] could change everything, but I wasn't
[00:41:34.640] thinking specifically about that at that
[00:41:36.800] point. Um
[00:41:39.520] so yeah but
[00:41:41.680] and now you're so what um just talking
[00:41:44.880] specifically you've you've investigated
[00:41:46.560] u the UAP phenomena for so long or UAPs
[00:41:50.720] um so what is your you know what is your
[00:41:54.000] take on it now you know what's what's
[00:41:55.520] your overall impression you know where
[00:41:57.520] where should we be looking you know if
[00:41:59.200] you're an investigator like me myself uh
[00:42:02.480] you know what avenues are you aiming at
[00:42:04.560] I guess
[00:42:06.160] well I Since I'm a journalist, my my
[00:42:09.119] focus is to try to get it out into the
[00:42:11.119] media. You know, I use the media as a
[00:42:12.880] way of reaching people. So, that's what
[00:42:16.000] I'm doing with this major series that's
[00:42:18.560] going to be on a major network in this
[00:42:20.640] year at the middle of this year. So,
[00:42:23.040] cool.
[00:42:23.520] I mean, that's always and then I want to
[00:42:24.960] keep writing stories for the times if I
[00:42:26.720] can. It's very difficult to get
[00:42:28.880] something at the level that the times
[00:42:31.520] requires, but when you do it, it has a
[00:42:34.160] huge impact.
[00:42:35.920] Um, I did write a story for the debrief
[00:42:38.079] last year. So, you know, I'm maybe start
[00:42:39.920] writing, but for me it's about getting
[00:42:42.240] getting things out into the public
[00:42:44.000] through the media because that's how I
[00:42:45.599] work. Um, but you know, other people
[00:42:48.079] have other ways of doing it and
[00:42:49.680] everybody contributes through whatever
[00:42:51.440] talents they have and whatever avenues
[00:42:53.280] they use. Um, and I I'll just keep doing
[00:42:55.760] that and I'll keep trying to push
[00:42:57.280] stories out,
[00:42:58.880] you know, as best I can. So what do you
[00:43:02.000] what do you think the the UAP is? What
[00:43:05.280] do you think the phenomena is? Do
[00:43:07.599] you have any questions?
[00:43:10.000] Way more complicated than we have
[00:43:12.720] thought or than I had thought. I mean
[00:43:15.040] I've learned over recent years it's just
[00:43:19.440] way more complicated. It seems to have
[00:43:21.599] properties that are really weird. Uh
[00:43:25.440] it's not just some physical object float
[00:43:27.680] flying in from some other planet, you
[00:43:29.599] know. It's got all kinds of paranormal
[00:43:34.000] aspects to it. I think that the
[00:43:35.839] Skinwalker Ranch book that came out uh
[00:43:38.640] recently,
[00:43:39.520] you know, Jacques Valet was the person
[00:43:41.119] who was on to this a long time ago and
[00:43:44.079] everybody just sort of didn't like it.
[00:43:46.880] Didn't like thinking of it as a more
[00:43:48.480] complicated phenomenon, but I think
[00:43:52.400] that's what it is. I don't think even I
[00:43:54.720] mean it's certainly not something
[00:43:57.200] manufactured by people on this planet. I
[00:43:59.599] I I'm willing to say that. Um I mean I I
[00:44:04.640] you know my position has always been we
[00:44:07.599] don't know what it is and I still have
[00:44:10.160] that position but I think I'm more
[00:44:13.280] willing to say now that we can rule out
[00:44:15.599] that it's created on Earth. I I mean I'm
[00:44:18.720] I just don't see how it could possibly
[00:44:20.480] be for so many reasons. Um, and given
[00:44:24.400] what it can do and the, you know, the
[00:44:26.160] effects it's had on people and the sort
[00:44:28.880] of bizarre technology that, you know, I
[00:44:32.319] and the fact that there's so many
[00:44:33.839] different types of objects.
[00:44:36.560] Yes.
[00:44:36.960] It just seems incredibly mysterious and
[00:44:39.200] complex to me. And we may never really
[00:44:41.359] understand fully what it what it is and
[00:44:44.000] how it does what it does, but it's not
[00:44:46.800] simple.
[00:44:48.480] And um, so I don't know what else to
[00:44:51.520] say. What do you think of implants?
[00:44:53.599] I don't know. It seems like I mean, I'm
[00:44:55.440] no expert on it, but it seems to me that
[00:44:58.079] there's never been any study that's been
[00:45:00.319] really really definitive to show, oh,
[00:45:03.599] this this material could not possibly
[00:45:05.920] have come been made on Earth. You know,
[00:45:09.200] it could be it could be a very strange
[00:45:11.119] thing. It could be like I don't know how
[00:45:13.119] that got into the person's body and you
[00:45:14.960] know, all kinds of things. But I don't
[00:45:17.280] think any of them have been proven to be
[00:45:19.680] really anomalous, really not from Earth.
[00:45:22.720] Um,
[00:45:24.400] as far as I know, but again, it's not
[00:45:25.839] the an area that I focus on. I mean, I'm
[00:45:28.400] really not focused as much on that
[00:45:30.079] element of it, but I think that's it's
[00:45:33.520] fascinating. And I think the work that
[00:45:36.079] uh Gary Nolan and Jacques Valet are
[00:45:38.079] doing, Gary Nolan's a a scientist from
[00:45:40.240] Stanford.
[00:45:41.520] Yes. are to study physical materials
[00:45:44.240] study that have had allegedly come from
[00:45:46.800] UFOs
[00:45:48.160] is really important and eventually there
[00:45:50.000] might be a breakthrough with their work
[00:45:51.440] where there is they have enough
[00:45:53.680] sophisticated equipment now to determine
[00:45:56.960] how you know that it's extremely
[00:45:58.720] unlikely that some of these things could
[00:46:00.160] have been manufactured here. So that's
[00:46:02.960] another thread of work that's really
[00:46:06.880] important. Um, and I I think you know
[00:46:09.599] Gary and Gary's going to be working on
[00:46:12.720] publishing papers and bringing more of
[00:46:14.480] that information out to the public and
[00:46:16.800] that's something we have to look forward
[00:46:18.000] to as well.
[00:46:19.920] Yeah, there's Yeah, there's so many so
[00:46:21.839] many angles lately. Um, I've been in
[00:46:24.240] into the orbs, you know, kind of trying
[00:46:26.000] to look into the the orbs off the east
[00:46:29.359] coast, west coast. um it just keeps
[00:46:32.240] coming up like these just balls of light
[00:46:34.560] or you know that you can see primarily
[00:46:36.560] in infrared but in optical it's they
[00:46:39.680] don't show up in the visual spectrum or
[00:46:41.200] they're harder to see but in in infrared
[00:46:43.200] they show up.
[00:46:44.640] Um it seems like these orbs have you had
[00:46:47.359] a lot of dealings with that? I didn't
[00:46:48.880] read so many in your book actually of
[00:46:50.240] just straight orbs.
[00:46:51.599] Yeah, I mean I wasn't working at all. I
[00:46:53.280] wasn't dealing with orbs at all when I
[00:46:55.599] did the book. It was much concrete, you
[00:46:58.079] know, radar data, physical stuff. But,
[00:47:00.560] um,
[00:47:01.280] I mean, I haven't I've talked to a lot
[00:47:03.520] of people who have seen orbs
[00:47:05.760] and that people see them and as they
[00:47:07.359] wrote about in the Skinwalker book,
[00:47:09.520] they're dangerous. You don't want to get
[00:47:11.040] too close to them. They can be
[00:47:12.240] dangerous. That's what's so weird about
[00:47:14.560] it. I don't know if you recall the case
[00:47:16.640] of the the guy in his car who had Yeah.
[00:47:19.280] one come in and went through his body
[00:47:20.720] and he got
[00:47:21.520] went through his arm or something.
[00:47:23.359] Yeah. I mean, people get very ill from
[00:47:25.520] getting too close to orbs.
[00:47:28.000] So, it's like stay away from them if you
[00:47:30.240] can. But they're they do people see them
[00:47:32.400] a lot. People encounter them. I don't
[00:47:33.920] think it's just in the infrared. People
[00:47:35.440] actually see them.
[00:47:37.280] And um I don't know. I don't know what
[00:47:39.200] they are. They seem to be some kind of
[00:47:40.640] device that's maybe gathering
[00:47:42.000] information or something, but nobody
[00:47:43.920] knows.
[00:47:45.440] Nobody knows what they are. But there
[00:47:47.200] are people who are studying the physical
[00:47:49.040] effects on people. And that was one of
[00:47:50.960] the things in the legislation that we
[00:47:52.400] were talking about.
[00:47:53.920] And orbs is one of the things that
[00:47:55.520] causes these physical effects that are
[00:47:57.280] harmful to people.
[00:47:59.680] So
[00:48:00.000] yeah, I think that came out of Narcap.
[00:48:02.000] It was it was uh in a majority of their
[00:48:05.359] sightings with orbs at least from
[00:48:08.319] Civilian Airlines. Um there was some
[00:48:10.640] electrical issue associated with it. uh
[00:48:14.000] it affected some equipment like their
[00:48:15.520] navigation equipment, you know, their
[00:48:16.720] compasses or actual lights started going
[00:48:19.599] out or electrical systems started
[00:48:21.040] failing. Um yeah, that's very
[00:48:23.599] interesting.
[00:48:24.319] Yeah, I think it wasn't just orbs. I
[00:48:26.000] just think any kind of UFO that they
[00:48:27.599] encountered
[00:48:29.599] because I remember I used to work with
[00:48:30.880] Narcap but um
[00:48:32.079] Okay, excellent.
[00:48:33.040] Yeah, it could affect the instruments in
[00:48:35.280] the plane for sure.
[00:48:37.119] Um whatever whatever it was, you know.
[00:48:39.119] So yeah, and then if you if there if it
[00:48:41.440] can affect instruments, it can also
[00:48:42.880] affect the human body, right?
[00:48:45.040] Yes. Yeah. It means some sort of fields
[00:48:47.520] going through there.
[00:48:49.599] And you know, when you when you think
[00:48:51.119] about an orb that's
[00:48:53.440] actually right in front of you or
[00:48:55.520] actually goes through your body or is in
[00:48:57.280] the same room as you,
[00:48:59.599] you know, you you got to be careful
[00:49:01.520] because we don't know what they are and
[00:49:02.960] how they're going to affect people. And
[00:49:04.400] as I was saying, people have become very
[00:49:06.000] ill from that.
[00:49:08.640] So
[00:49:08.960] yeah, I was very happy to see the the
[00:49:10.640] human effects
[00:49:12.880] put in. Um do you think it's related or
[00:49:15.920] do you have any knowledge on it being
[00:49:17.359] related to Havana syndrome? Is it a
[00:49:19.920] separate thing?
[00:49:20.800] It's interesting you you bring that up.
[00:49:22.720] I mean yes. Um uh
[00:49:27.040] there people have you know I don't know
[00:49:29.119] how much I can say about it publicly but
[00:49:32.079] um
[00:49:33.839] some of the medical effects between the
[00:49:37.200] two are very similar between Havana
[00:49:40.319] syndrome and some of these UAP
[00:49:42.400] encounters. I mean I don't think that
[00:49:44.319] means they're necessarily the same. the
[00:49:46.400] source is the same
[00:49:48.720] but uh the effects there are a lot of
[00:49:51.760] the effects that are the same that's
[00:49:54.000] pretty interesting it's very intriguing
[00:49:57.280] I don't know there's some relationship
[00:49:59.520] but I don't think it's known I mean
[00:50:02.160] there are people working on that I don't
[00:50:03.839] think it's known why that is or what's
[00:50:07.599] going on and certainly there's not if
[00:50:10.640] they know they're not talking about it
[00:50:12.400] it's a lot of it's probably classified
[00:50:14.559] you know about Havana syndrome But
[00:50:16.240] yeah,
[00:50:16.640] there are similarities. Absolutely.
[00:50:19.200] There are.
[00:50:20.559] Yeah, it's strange. The um so I'm
[00:50:24.160] working on Turkey UFO.
[00:50:26.640] Uh I guess that was back in 2007 2009.
[00:50:29.680] Uh Roger Lear, I was watching watching
[00:50:32.079] interviews with Roger Lear. He did uh I
[00:50:34.960] think he said 16 implant removals, etc.
[00:50:37.760] Uh he says he was in Turkey and watched
[00:50:39.680] this, you know, watched the video where
[00:50:42.000] they uh there were these supposed
[00:50:44.800] occupants in the craft. Um do you
[00:50:47.119] remember Turkey UFO? Was it ever?
[00:50:49.839] That was the one sort of shaped like
[00:50:51.440] this and then there you could see a a
[00:50:53.359] being there or something. I do remember
[00:50:55.680] it. I didn't like
[00:50:57.440] look into it because
[00:50:59.760] I think was what what year was it?
[00:51:02.800] There was three. So, it was the summer
[00:51:05.040] of 2007, 8, and nine.
[00:51:08.079] I I do remember the video. I just didn't
[00:51:10.079] I didn't know what to make of it.
[00:51:11.839] It didn't make much press or didn't get
[00:51:13.760] a lot of attention, I guess, in in the
[00:51:15.599] US circles. Uh, Euphology is kind of my
[00:51:19.680] impression. Um, but
[00:51:21.440] yeah, that's the case I'm working on
[00:51:23.119] now. I'll probably go hopefully to
[00:51:25.359] Turkey this, you know, this spring to
[00:51:27.440] try and continue.
[00:51:29.440] Yeah, it should be fun. Um because yeah,
[00:51:31.280] I just started this in in the summer
[00:51:33.280] like I mentioned. So it's it's good to
[00:51:35.359] talk with like seasoned, you know,
[00:51:37.520] experts in the field. Uh you know, such
[00:51:39.920] as yourself on
[00:51:42.160] I wish I could tell you something about
[00:51:43.599] that video, but I remember it. I just
[00:51:45.520] don't remember.
[00:51:47.520] I just I think I was busy with a lot of
[00:51:49.760] stuff and I just thought, is this so
[00:51:51.599] strange looking? I don't you know, who
[00:51:54.400] knows?
[00:51:55.280] But who knows what's going on there. But
[00:51:57.760] it it would just didn't look like your
[00:51:59.359] typical UFO video. That doesn't mean
[00:52:02.319] it's not legitimate, of course.
[00:52:04.000] Yeah. Yeah. It's an interesting case. I
[00:52:05.440] feel like a lot of people don't know
[00:52:07.040] about it, at least um in the in the US.
[00:52:10.480] It just seems like it didn't get much uh
[00:52:12.319] publicity or not many eyes looked at it.
[00:52:14.720] It was kind of skipped over because I
[00:52:16.880] made a video about it a couple months
[00:52:18.079] ago. Um and I was surprised actually the
[00:52:20.800] level of interest I got again. So, I'm
[00:52:22.880] I'm still working on that one.
[00:52:24.160] That's really cool. It's really cool to
[00:52:26.000] focus in on one thing like that. I hope
[00:52:28.000] you learn more about it. You know,
[00:52:30.319] that's what I was forced. Yeah, I was
[00:52:32.000] getting going in too many angles and
[00:52:34.319] then people just said, "What about this,
[00:52:36.160] Chris? You were supposed to be talking
[00:52:37.200] about that." I was like, "Oh, yeah." So,
[00:52:39.119] that was good. So, focusing on on Turkey
[00:52:41.119] UFO. Um, your surviving your surviving
[00:52:44.640] death book. Uh, so did you find any any
[00:52:48.480] parallels with the with the phenomena?
[00:52:51.119] Um,
[00:52:51.599] oh my, I mean that is such a big
[00:52:53.119] question that I'm just starting to learn
[00:52:54.640] more about. I mean there, you know,
[00:52:56.319] there are paranormal effects that UFOs
[00:52:58.880] have on people
[00:53:00.640] which are similar to, for instance,
[00:53:03.119] near-death experiences that people have,
[00:53:05.040] you know, where they where they will go
[00:53:07.520] into the afterlife realm when they're
[00:53:10.079] basically dead and the brain isn't
[00:53:11.839] supposed to work and then they'll come
[00:53:13.440] back and remember everything that
[00:53:14.960] happened. Um, and sometimes after those
[00:53:18.319] experiences, people have psychic
[00:53:20.960] abilities that they didn't have before.
[00:53:23.520] They have clairvoyant abilities. They
[00:53:25.119] can they experience telepathy. They have
[00:53:26.880] precognitive dreams. And and the same
[00:53:29.920] thing can happen to people who see a UFO
[00:53:32.000] or get close to a UFO or have some kind
[00:53:34.160] of encounter with a UFO.
[00:53:36.640] They they develop these paranormal
[00:53:38.800] abilities that they didn't have before.
[00:53:41.520] So that's just a very simplistic way of
[00:53:44.720] illustrating one one possible connection
[00:53:47.200] that there's some kind of dimension or
[00:53:51.520] even a state of consciousness that
[00:53:53.599] people have that is similar in both
[00:53:56.640] scenarios
[00:53:58.800] you know um that and um yeah and I don't
[00:54:03.119] know what that's about but it's
[00:54:04.400] something to do with human consciousness
[00:54:05.920] and how how our consciousness interacts
[00:54:08.160] with these phenomena how we interact
[00:54:10.720] with,
[00:54:12.559] you know, leaving our bodies, for
[00:54:15.040] instance, and and
[00:54:17.599] going somewhere else and and then or how
[00:54:20.880] we how we react with consciousness when
[00:54:23.440] we encounter something that's this
[00:54:26.000] interdimensional or
[00:54:28.640] something from another world or from
[00:54:30.640] some other plane of existence, which is
[00:54:32.720] a UFO. I mean, I don't think that you
[00:54:35.920] can pinpoint UFOs as just something
[00:54:38.079] physical anymore, you know? That's
[00:54:40.559] that's sort of how I've changed in my
[00:54:43.520] perspective. They're not just physical.
[00:54:46.559] And um
[00:54:49.040] so
[00:54:51.200] I think that consciousness is impacted
[00:54:53.680] in the same way
[00:54:56.000] through by UFOs and through some of
[00:54:57.839] these other experiences that deal with
[00:55:01.040] it, you know, things that happen to
[00:55:02.240] people close to death or related to
[00:55:04.480] that. So, I mean, I don't know how to
[00:55:05.839] put it all together,
[00:55:07.920] but there's something really intriguing
[00:55:10.000] about that. And I know there are people
[00:55:11.680] who know a lot more about that
[00:55:13.760] connection than I do. There are people
[00:55:15.520] who have been really trying to study
[00:55:17.280] that connection. I know Whitley Strieber
[00:55:19.520] is one person who's done that, who's
[00:55:21.760] really focused on on that connection. Uh
[00:55:24.640] he he in some of the letters, you know,
[00:55:26.400] when he wrote his book Communion in the
[00:55:28.240] 1980s,
[00:55:29.760] many of the letters he got from people
[00:55:31.599] describing their experiences involved
[00:55:34.720] seeing deceased people when they were
[00:55:37.520] having a UFO experience.
[00:55:40.319] Um, which he he took note of at the
[00:55:42.880] time, like why are they seeing deceased
[00:55:44.800] people in a UF, you know, in a close
[00:55:47.040] encounter experience? There's some kind
[00:55:49.359] of overlap.
[00:55:51.680] And so, I think that's sort of a a new
[00:55:54.799] frontier that a lot of people are
[00:55:56.640] interested in kind of understanding
[00:55:58.799] better. I certainly am, and there are
[00:56:00.640] people that understand it better than I
[00:56:02.079] do. But um what is that all about? You
[00:56:06.160] know, it's pretty interesting to see if
[00:56:08.400] there is and how what role does human
[00:56:10.400] consciousness play in all of this just
[00:56:12.799] the way we perceive things and how we're
[00:56:14.480] affected by things, you know, and all of
[00:56:17.920] that has to be looked at and and so
[00:56:19.920] that's
[00:56:21.839] I'm I'm really interested in trying to
[00:56:23.839] understand all of that better.
[00:56:26.240] That is interesting. Um I was talking to
[00:56:29.280] another YouTuber, uh Artisan Tony. I've
[00:56:32.079] worked with him a little bit. He's a
[00:56:33.760] contract guy, lives in Tennessee,
[00:56:35.760] character. Uh but he he mentioned that
[00:56:39.200] when he was 10, I got I got him to talk
[00:56:41.440] on on uh online about his experience
[00:56:44.000] when he was around 10 years old. He came
[00:56:45.760] into contact with a a blue orb. He says
[00:56:48.240] an orb
[00:56:49.280] and he couldn't move and he wasn't
[00:56:50.640] afraid of it.
[00:56:52.160] Uh which was terrifying to him actually
[00:56:54.079] later because he wasn't afraid.
[00:56:55.920] Right. That's so many people have said
[00:56:57.599] that too that they're amazed they
[00:56:58.799] weren't afraid anyway. Yeah.
[00:57:00.720] Yeah. Yeah, it was like u they had a cut
[00:57:02.720] off switch or something. He said they
[00:57:04.079] had some off switch on him. Um and what
[00:57:07.599] he he says kind of what you just related
[00:57:09.839] there is that it it seems like it was
[00:57:12.960] now he can he he can pick up on other
[00:57:16.000] things. Um like it was affected his
[00:57:20.799] receive capability or transmit
[00:57:22.559] capability or something in his brain. Um
[00:57:25.040] so he mentioned yeah there's something
[00:57:26.640] different whereas he thinks coming into
[00:57:28.720] contact with these things can physically
[00:57:32.079] change somehow affect affect how your
[00:57:34.799] brain actually works.
[00:57:37.119] Yeah. And that's one of that's one of
[00:57:38.799] the things that Gary other people are
[00:57:40.799] studying too. There there are scientists
[00:57:42.640] who are looking at the brains of people
[00:57:44.319] who have had these experiences
[00:57:46.880] and seeing if there's if there are
[00:57:48.799] qualities in the in the human brain that
[00:57:51.200] correspond to people have who have these
[00:57:53.599] experiences that other people don't have
[00:57:56.000] and there's you know really interesting
[00:57:58.079] data around that. Uh so that's another
[00:58:01.520] area of investigation is like can you
[00:58:04.000] actually see something in the brain you
[00:58:05.760] know that's changed or that's that's
[00:58:08.799] unique to people who are who have
[00:58:10.880] experiences like this.
[00:58:13.359] Um, so all these
[00:58:15.760] so interesting. Uh, yeah. Really, really
[00:58:19.440] mysterious
[00:58:20.559] and and so why why don't they show us,
[00:58:24.880] you know, if the UAP is is here, why
[00:58:27.280] hide? Do you feel like the phenomena is
[00:58:29.599] is hiding from us or is this just how it
[00:58:32.559] is? I don't what
[00:58:33.599] I I don't know. I mean, I can't I don't
[00:58:36.640] want to project like intention or
[00:58:39.040] Yeah.
[00:58:39.440] purpose onto it because I have no idea.
[00:58:42.319] I mean I uh it's obviously not landing
[00:58:46.799] and saying here we are you know
[00:58:48.559] yes
[00:58:49.440] giving us something to really really
[00:58:51.119] really get a close look at
[00:58:54.000] but whether it's intentionally doing
[00:58:57.599] that I I have no way of knowing or if
[00:58:59.839] it's just doing its thing. I mean, we
[00:59:01.520] don't even know what this what this
[00:59:03.359] thing is, right?
[00:59:06.160] So, it's hard to know very much about
[00:59:09.599] what's going on with it in behavior. Uh,
[00:59:12.799] so so I don't know. I just tend to not
[00:59:14.640] want to speculate about it.
[00:59:16.400] Yeah.
[00:59:18.160] Just find the evidence. Go for
[00:59:20.000] I don't know. I mean, it doesn't really
[00:59:22.160] matter what I think they're doing or not
[00:59:23.920] doing. It's like,
[00:59:24.799] yes.
[00:59:27.520] Uh I mean yeah obviously I mean if
[00:59:31.359] there's some int you you know what
[00:59:32.799] intrigues me is there is an intelligence
[00:59:34.799] behind these things obviously.
[00:59:36.559] Okay. Yeah that's I guess that's what
[00:59:38.160] I'm
[00:59:38.880] there's an intelligence there. It's been
[00:59:40.480] demonstrated many many times.
[00:59:43.119] And so
[00:59:44.960] what is that? Where is it coming from?
[00:59:47.280] Where what's the source of that
[00:59:48.480] intelligence?
[00:59:50.000] Is there something, you know, there's
[00:59:52.400] obviously something controlling the like
[00:59:54.559] let's say the tic tac, you know,
[00:59:56.240] controlling its behavior. Is that
[00:59:57.920] something inside it or outside of it or
[01:00:01.119] and you know why what what is its
[01:00:04.480] intention and kind of having this cat
[01:00:06.880] and mouse thing where it's going around
[01:00:08.480] with with Dave Fraver, you know, meeting
[01:00:10.559] him and going to his cap point and
[01:00:12.559] showing up.
[01:00:13.680] I mean, it's the it's the intelligence
[01:00:17.040] that's so intriguing. How else would you
[01:00:19.040] define intelligence? So what when you
[01:00:21.440] see something and you say that's
[01:00:24.160] intelligence, you know what would what
[01:00:26.240] is it, you know?
[01:00:26.960] Well, and what I mean by that is it it's
[01:00:28.880] responsive,
[01:00:30.640] you know, it's not just operating in
[01:00:32.480] some mechanical independent mechanical
[01:00:34.640] way where it's just going around in
[01:00:36.000] circles or something. It's actually
[01:00:37.680] responsive and interactive with jets,
[01:00:41.119] with navy jets, with with pilots or you
[01:00:44.079] know but and as was demonstrated with
[01:00:46.000] Dave Fraver and has been demonstrated
[01:00:47.520] with other cases. Um I mean
[01:00:50.720] so an intelligence I guess it doesn't
[01:00:52.319] mean it's a high intelligence you know
[01:00:54.000] it could be a lower intelligence I guess
[01:00:56.240] you know
[01:00:56.640] it's just you know when something's
[01:00:58.160] responding to you and taking actions
[01:01:00.480] according to what you're doing in that
[01:01:02.319] moment I that's what I call
[01:01:04.079] intelligence. I mean maybe that's not
[01:01:06.400] the right word
[01:01:07.680] but you know so many military officials
[01:01:09.920] so many officials have said over the
[01:01:11.680] years they operate as if they are under
[01:01:14.880] intelligent control.
[01:01:16.319] Intelligent control. Yeah. So
[01:01:18.319] control something is in controlling them
[01:01:20.160] to the extent that these things can in
[01:01:22.480] the moment be responsive and interactive
[01:01:25.680] you know
[01:01:27.119] it's not just a weird projection. Yeah.
[01:01:29.040] No. They're relating to the stimuli
[01:01:30.880] around them and responding to that. And
[01:01:34.000] so they're more than just some kind of
[01:01:37.359] purely mechanical drone or something.
[01:01:40.079] There's somebody in charge of it, right?
[01:01:43.520] Or some force,
[01:01:45.119] something
[01:01:45.760] some force, some something that is able
[01:01:50.079] to to allow it to be responsive. I mean,
[01:01:52.160] we don't know how that works or what it
[01:01:53.599] is,
[01:01:54.480] but I think the word intelligence is the
[01:01:56.240] one that generally people have used. Um
[01:01:58.880] because I mean you know if you like two
[01:02:01.839] you know if you get two magnets of the
[01:02:03.760] same you know and it's a it repels you
[01:02:06.960] know you're still affecting it but it
[01:02:10.079] could be something we don't understand.
[01:02:11.280] I guess that would be the only
[01:02:12.480] Yeah. I mean there's so many cases like
[01:02:14.240] in the case of of uh the Peruvian case
[01:02:17.040] which the pilot wrote a chapter about
[01:02:19.119] that case in my book in 1980. Um, and he
[01:02:22.480] was like, you know, he'd jump, he'd go
[01:02:24.079] up and then the UFO would go up and stop
[01:02:26.559] right at the same level he was at.
[01:02:28.559] Yes.
[01:02:28.880] Then he go up again and the thing would
[01:02:30.559] go again and stop right next to him.
[01:02:33.520] I mean, that's responsive behavior. That
[01:02:36.000] that that object was aware of what this
[01:02:38.960] pilot was doing and it was acting
[01:02:40.640] accordingly.
[01:02:42.559] So that that was that's what what I'm
[01:02:45.599] talking about when I say intelligence or
[01:02:47.920] intelligent control. I mean I don't I
[01:02:49.760] don't know what other words you use.
[01:02:51.440] Yeah, I don't I don't either. I just
[01:02:54.720] I just was curious on your thought on
[01:02:56.640] what does intelligence, you know, mean
[01:02:58.640] or how do you how do you identify it? Uh
[01:03:02.079] in the same like I had the same thought,
[01:03:03.839] you know, when when Dave Fraver when he
[01:03:05.359] descends down to try and see the the tic
[01:03:07.920] tac and then the tic tac comes up to
[01:03:09.440] him,
[01:03:10.319] you know, that obviously Yeah. That's
[01:03:12.079] he's it's maneuvering in response to
[01:03:14.000] him.
[01:03:14.720] Exactly. Exactly. I think that's
[01:03:16.880] happened in many cases.
[01:03:18.880] uh many cases. I mean in the in the
[01:03:22.000] Jafari General Jafari's case from Iran
[01:03:26.160] in 1976.
[01:03:28.079] I mean he also wrote a chapter. It's
[01:03:29.680] just so cool to hear these guys tell
[01:03:31.200] their own stories. But
[01:03:32.799] that there was some huge object up there
[01:03:34.960] that was actually sending projectiles
[01:03:36.720] out. They were heading right for his
[01:03:38.319] plane.
[01:03:39.920] So that's some kind of intelligence,
[01:03:42.240] right?
[01:03:43.119] Yes. Um, and then the his equipment
[01:03:46.799] would go out, his he was trying to shoot
[01:03:49.680] a missile at these objects, these little
[01:03:51.440] things, because he felt he had to defend
[01:03:52.960] himself. And he would lock onto the
[01:03:55.440] object and then when it got to be a
[01:03:57.920] certain distance from him or closeness
[01:04:00.319] to him, all his equipment would go out
[01:04:03.359] and he didn't have the he couldn't fire
[01:04:05.119] his missile. And then once it moved
[01:04:07.440] away, you know, so there again, we've
[01:04:09.760] talked about them impacting the
[01:04:11.599] electrical equipment in in
[01:04:14.000] yes
[01:04:14.319] planes. And we don't know if that's
[01:04:15.599] intentional on the part of the objects
[01:04:17.440] or if it's just that they're emanating
[01:04:19.039] some kind of radiation that just does
[01:04:20.640] that automatically. I mean, Jafar's
[01:04:22.880] interpretation was he felt like it was
[01:04:24.960] intentional to him, but there's no way
[01:04:27.760] to know. You know, the same thing with
[01:04:29.680] the shutting down of the nukes. I mean,
[01:04:32.559] people like to say, "Oh, they have a
[01:04:35.680] they're giving us a message that we
[01:04:37.200] shouldn't be involved with nuclear war
[01:04:38.880] by shutting down our nukes." I mean, I
[01:04:41.680] don't I think that's a leap that we
[01:04:43.520] can't make. Uh I think that it's
[01:04:46.240] conceivable that there was
[01:04:49.200] that object just had some emanation or
[01:04:52.640] some kind of radiation associated with
[01:04:54.480] it or force field that had that effect
[01:04:56.960] on the nukes. Um, I mean it seems
[01:05:00.880] somewhat unlikely to me because it was
[01:05:02.480] so specific to the nukes. I don't know
[01:05:04.720] but there's no way to know what what is
[01:05:07.200] intention and what is just happening
[01:05:09.520] because of the nature of the object
[01:05:10.960] itself you know but I certain you know
[01:05:13.839] but if you have a a huge gigantic
[01:05:16.400] triangular brilliantly lit strobe thing
[01:05:20.400] sitting there in the sky firing out
[01:05:22.319] projectiles towards you I think you
[01:05:24.880] could call that intelligence
[01:05:28.240] right it's sort of
[01:05:30.559] automatically happening Um, so that's
[01:05:35.039] the kind of thing that I find anyway I
[01:05:37.520] just what is the force behind it all
[01:05:39.520] that's able to be responsive like that
[01:05:43.680] and um that's
[01:05:45.920] the big I mean that's what everybody
[01:05:47.680] wants to know obviously.
[01:05:50.079] Yeah, I'm excited for the James Web
[01:05:52.079] Space Telescope that should be coming
[01:05:54.000] online here in a few months.
[01:05:55.680] Yeah, that may tell us something at
[01:05:57.760] least about the outer universe, you
[01:05:59.520] know.
[01:06:00.720] Totally. If they Yeah. And then I think
[01:06:02.799] there's other countries too that are
[01:06:05.119] probing space that may be more
[01:06:06.799] forthcoming if they do see some
[01:06:08.240] anomalies than maybe than our our
[01:06:10.160] government would be. But
[01:06:12.640] yeah, and I think the work of the
[01:06:13.920] Galileo project is also going to be
[01:06:15.599] really interesting.
[01:06:17.359] I mean, it's so interesting that this
[01:06:19.359] Harvard astronomer who was pretty much a
[01:06:21.839] debunker about UFOs or was completely
[01:06:24.079] scornful of them has now come around to
[01:06:27.200] wanting to try to capture data himself
[01:06:29.039] on on UAP because he gets it. Yeah, it
[01:06:32.240] just shows
[01:06:32.960] Abby lo. Yeah.
[01:06:34.319] Yeah. Yeah. Abby Lo. I mean the power of
[01:06:36.319] our government legitimizing this
[01:06:39.680] has a huge impact on and the scientific
[01:06:42.640] community are sort of the last ones to
[01:06:44.319] come around but they I think with his
[01:06:47.200] leadership I mean he's really been a a
[01:06:49.440] force AI lobe of
[01:06:51.680] mobilization for science and it's just
[01:06:53.599] fantastic. Yeah.
[01:06:55.280] Yeah. He came on, he was my first
[01:06:56.880] interview actually. Um,
[01:06:59.280] uh, and very inspiring. Very inspiring.
[01:07:02.079] Was that back with when his book came
[01:07:04.000] out before he had kind of opened up to
[01:07:06.160] UFOs or was it
[01:07:07.760] No, this was in um this was in August.
[01:07:11.039] So after the
[01:07:12.720] Yeah. Or
[01:07:13.359] after he founded the Galileo probably.
[01:07:15.839] Yep. It was right after the Galileo
[01:07:17.520] project came out. And so I interviewed
[01:07:19.200] him about that.
[01:07:20.960] Yeah. He's really a force out there.
[01:07:24.400] Yeah. He goes on all different all
[01:07:26.559] podcasts, you know. It's I was really
[01:07:28.559] happy to have him on and yeah, he was
[01:07:30.319] amazing. Very inspiring.
[01:07:31.920] Yeah, I I agree. I've had some
[01:07:33.760] communications with him and he's he's
[01:07:35.599] just playing a really important role in
[01:07:37.920] all of this. So, uh
[01:07:39.839] yeah, I hope to be great though. Sorry.
[01:07:42.240] Go ahead.
[01:07:42.799] No, I'm just saying it's another another
[01:07:44.480] project that we have to look forward to
[01:07:45.760] for next year and the years to follow.
[01:07:49.039] Yeah, there's so many projects. I'm I'm
[01:07:50.799] so excited for 2022, you know,
[01:07:53.280] right? we can forget about COVID and
[01:07:55.440] focus on how wonderful all this stuff
[01:07:57.280] is.
[01:07:58.079] Yes. Hopefully. Yeah. Hopefully co will
[01:08:00.799] end. We'll find out the truth this year
[01:08:03.920] or we'll find out more anyway.
[01:08:05.599] Yeah, definitely. And then this is I
[01:08:07.359] guess my own personal question on uh on
[01:08:09.680] bookw writing just uh I know it's not
[01:08:12.000] really on topic of UAPs but um it was
[01:08:15.760] interesting that book you mentioned you
[01:08:17.040] had 18 different people put it together.
[01:08:19.359] Uh but how do you how do you go about
[01:08:21.359] editing editing your books? you know
[01:08:23.199] what is your your process I guess as a
[01:08:25.279] as a fellow author or aspiring author in
[01:08:28.000] my case.
[01:08:28.960] I mean I do a first draft which is just
[01:08:32.400] like spewing out
[01:08:35.679] you know not even thinking about the
[01:08:37.199] writing just getting the ideas down and
[01:08:40.159] then for me writing is really about
[01:08:42.960] editing. I mean, the craft of writing is
[01:08:45.040] about
[01:08:46.799] going over and over and over it, but
[01:08:49.600] it's the hardest part is getting that
[01:08:51.120] first draft out
[01:08:53.040] and then you just have to craft the
[01:08:56.560] writing, you know, and all and that's
[01:08:58.319] just a very long process and I find that
[01:09:01.520] you have to walk away from it for a
[01:09:03.199] little bit of time and come back fresh.
[01:09:04.960] It's a long process, but every and
[01:09:06.880] they're just constant constant drafts
[01:09:10.159] that I do to refine refine refine the
[01:09:12.480] writing, you know, and I might bring
[01:09:14.159] more material in or whatever. And but
[01:09:16.400] then, you know, because I publish with
[01:09:18.480] RandomHouse, I also have an editor
[01:09:21.199] that's given to me by the publisher. So
[01:09:23.679] I do it I do a lot of it myself to get
[01:09:26.080] it at a level the best level I can but I
[01:09:29.279] love having the input from outside
[01:09:31.279] editors
[01:09:32.719] and you know also showing it to
[01:09:34.400] colleagues and getting feedback and
[01:09:36.080] things like that because what happens as
[01:09:38.719] a writer is you become so familiar with
[01:09:41.279] what you're doing that you lose
[01:09:42.799] perspective on it.
[01:09:44.880] It's that's another problem for any
[01:09:46.880] writer. It's like you're just too
[01:09:48.560] familiar and to have outside eyes look
[01:09:51.199] at something
[01:09:53.520] is really really valuable for I would
[01:09:56.560] highly encourage that when you get it to
[01:09:58.000] a po a certain point you know um and
[01:10:00.640] you'll get feedback that's really
[01:10:03.040] helpful because then you know somebody's
[01:10:05.120] reading it who isn't you and so that
[01:10:07.440] that's like your person who you're
[01:10:08.800] writing it for and you want to know what
[01:10:10.640] their reaction is and you're not going
[01:10:11.920] to see everything yourself. It's just an
[01:10:14.400] impossible to see it all yourself.
[01:10:17.760] I mean everybody every writer needs a
[01:10:19.520] good editor. That's my and I I a lot of
[01:10:22.480] people don't like that, but I do. I
[01:10:24.480] really benefit a lot and value the
[01:10:26.640] the input of editors. So,
[01:10:29.280] do you write every day or do you write a
[01:10:31.360] few hours every day or do you write all
[01:10:33.199] in one big how do you work?
[01:10:35.280] It depends on you know what kind of
[01:10:36.640] deadline I'm on? I mean
[01:10:40.239] um I mean when I'm writing a book I
[01:10:43.040] would probably write every day. uh when
[01:10:45.600] I was writing surviving death, I'm
[01:10:46.800] trying to remember or I'd be thinking
[01:10:48.800] about it every day or there might be
[01:10:50.320] some days where I would just be doing
[01:10:51.600] research or something and not writing,
[01:10:54.080] you know. Um
[01:10:57.040] but you have to take little breaks from
[01:10:59.199] it or it becomes too familiar. You have
[01:11:01.360] to step away and then read it as if you
[01:11:03.920] didn't write it,
[01:11:05.360] as if it's just something completely new
[01:11:07.280] that you have to just read it with this
[01:11:09.520] kind of fresh mind. and you're going to
[01:11:12.239] see things that you couldn't see if you
[01:11:13.760] just stayed with it every single day,
[01:11:15.360] you know? So, stepping away is really
[01:11:17.840] important.
[01:11:19.520] Yeah, that's what I'm I'm doing now.
[01:11:21.679] Yeah. Just hope I go back.
[01:11:23.040] You know, people think that it's really
[01:11:24.800] easy to write well, but it's not.
[01:11:28.400] Writing is a is a craft. It's a work.
[01:11:32.080] You know, you don't just sit down and
[01:11:33.440] write a book. No,
[01:11:34.960] it's this long process that uh there's a
[01:11:39.760] lot that goes into if you're trying to
[01:11:41.440] write something really well. I mean, for
[01:11:42.960] some people, they just want to get their
[01:11:44.719] information out and that's okay, too,
[01:11:47.600] but um the art of writing is not easy.
[01:11:51.120] It's really not. I mean, every sentence
[01:11:53.040] gets scrutinized, you know, and you got
[01:11:55.360] to worry about things like word
[01:11:56.800] repetitions and um the the flow, the way
[01:12:01.600] it feels, the rhythm of the writing, you
[01:12:04.400] know, the flow of the words. Um it's
[01:12:07.760] just there's a lot that goes into it, at
[01:12:09.360] least for me.
[01:12:10.880] Oh, 100%. Yeah.
[01:12:12.159] Yeah. I need time even when I'm writing
[01:12:13.920] just an article. I mean, I might spend a
[01:12:17.520] week with it just fiddling with the
[01:12:20.000] language and it might just be here and
[01:12:22.320] there, but it can really end up making a
[01:12:24.560] huge difference
[01:12:26.080] in the long run. You know, it's that
[01:12:28.159] that sort of fine-tuning of um how
[01:12:31.600] you're expressing it and
[01:12:34.080] uh you know that I feel to be so
[01:12:36.880] important and if I feel rushed to write
[01:12:38.560] something, I can't I don't have the time
[01:12:39.920] to do that. I'm not going to be happy.
[01:12:41.440] That's if I'm writing on my own. When
[01:12:42.960] I'm writing with other with colleagues
[01:12:44.320] like for the New York Times, it's very
[01:12:45.840] different because the Times does all the
[01:12:48.560] editing and they do a lot of it, a lot
[01:12:50.719] of editing.
[01:12:52.480] So, we don't have to worry as much about
[01:12:54.080] our craft of writing so much. It has to
[01:12:56.000] be the style of the New York Times. But
[01:12:58.880] there's heavy duty editing coming from
[01:13:00.719] the outside in that that
[01:13:02.800] Yeah.
[01:13:03.199] You know, I don't have as much control
[01:13:04.719] over it. But
[01:13:06.080] who came up with the name for glowing
[01:13:07.840] auras and black money?
[01:13:10.320] I don't even know. But it sure was not
[01:13:12.320] us. It was not us.
[01:13:15.679] Um, we we turn in the story and we get
[01:13:18.880] it back with a headline.
[01:13:20.960] Yes.
[01:13:21.360] And the the print headline was
[01:13:23.120] different. Print headline was much
[01:13:25.280] better. I think I have a copy of it. Oh,
[01:13:29.120] the head the print headline, it's right
[01:13:31.120] here. Are UFOs real?
[01:13:33.920] Secret Pentagon unit tried to know. H
[01:13:37.600] now I like that headline much better
[01:13:40.000] than the one that was online.
[01:13:42.159] So, but there are people at the times
[01:13:44.320] whose sole job is to write headlines for
[01:13:46.640] stories.
[01:13:47.840] That's what that's all they do.
[01:13:50.159] And the the writers have no control over
[01:13:53.199] it. Zero. So, that's all I can say about
[01:13:56.800] that headline.
[01:13:58.960] Yeah. I mean, the the print edition I
[01:14:01.120] guess I don't have the first page here.
[01:14:03.679] Yeah, it's right behind me. Real UFOs.
[01:14:07.440] Cool.
[01:14:08.000] Pentagon unit tried to know. I mean, I
[01:14:10.960] have it here on my wall. I don't know if
[01:14:12.640] you can see it, but
[01:14:14.000] cool. I'll find a a better image of it.
[01:14:16.800] I just like that uh headline better than
[01:14:19.520] the one on the line, but so I don't
[01:14:21.760] know. They they maybe were trying to
[01:14:24.560] sort of say something really catchy that
[01:14:26.960] would attract a lot of attention. Yeah,
[01:14:28.719] the the journalists have no say in
[01:14:30.159] headlines at the New York Times,
[01:14:31.600] unfortunately.
[01:14:33.920] I yeah I guess what I've learned the
[01:14:36.000] most from this this uh talk is it seems
[01:14:40.239] like the the evidence is already there.
[01:14:43.840] You know it seems like all of these
[01:14:45.360] cases already exist. I I guess I was
[01:14:47.360] most surprised looking at at reading
[01:14:48.880] reading your book was how much evidence
[01:14:51.679] there is.
[01:14:52.880] It's it's stunning. Right.
[01:14:54.560] Yeah.
[01:14:55.199] It's stunning. And it's taken how long
[01:14:58.000] to get to to get our government to
[01:15:00.800] officially acknowledge that. It's just
[01:15:04.000] but it's a loaded it's a loaded topic.
[01:15:06.320] So,
[01:15:08.480] you know, but it is it's really
[01:15:10.719] stunning. I mean, that's what that's the
[01:15:12.159] point I was at, too, when I wrote that
[01:15:13.760] book.
[01:15:15.120] I was just because I'd spent 10 years on
[01:15:17.280] this stuff. It was just incredible to me
[01:15:19.360] how much evidence there was that there's
[01:15:21.120] no way that all these cases could be
[01:15:23.120] explained away. And even if it's only a
[01:15:25.679] few of them, that's enough.
[01:15:28.719] Yes.
[01:15:29.600] Right.
[01:15:29.920] Yeah. Exactly. One case, one case should
[01:15:31.920] be enough, you know.
[01:15:33.280] Exactly. I mean, Stanton Freeman always
[01:15:35.040] used to say that it only takes one UFO
[01:15:38.080] to be
[01:15:40.000] uh so we've had we've had the I mean,
[01:15:43.280] and you go back to the 50s and 60s when
[01:15:46.880] the same observations were made and
[01:15:49.199] there was no way that any country had
[01:15:51.440] this technology then
[01:15:53.760] and the behavior of the objects hasn't
[01:15:56.000] changed.
[01:15:58.000] We just have more data on it now. But
[01:16:00.159] these things were reported back during
[01:16:02.880] the Cold War, right? When nobody had the
[01:16:05.520] technology that these objects were
[01:16:07.440] demonstrating. It's just impossible.
[01:16:10.719] So, you know, if you look back in
[01:16:12.000] history, it it makes the argument even
[01:16:14.480] stronger that these are not from Earth.
[01:16:18.159] Yeah. Because it stays the same. You
[01:16:19.520] know, in the 50s we had radar contacts,
[01:16:22.640] we chased them with fighters and we had
[01:16:25.280] visual observers, photographs, and today
[01:16:27.920] we have it the same thing. You know, we
[01:16:30.080] have radar,
[01:16:31.760] it's more sophisticated today, and I'm
[01:16:33.520] sure we have a lot more. I mean, I know
[01:16:35.040] we do. I know that the Pentagon is
[01:16:36.800] sitting on all kinds of spectacular
[01:16:39.600] photos and videos and radar and all
[01:16:41.760] kinds of data. I mean, Lou Alzando has
[01:16:44.080] informed us that there's one video
[01:16:45.600] that's 23 minutes long and it has
[01:16:48.719] multiple craft in it, maneuvering in
[01:16:51.440] ways that are just stunning that kind of
[01:16:54.400] is it's kind of definitive that video.
[01:16:58.080] Uh, and yet we're not allowed the the
[01:17:00.719] humanity is not allowed to have access
[01:17:02.719] to that.
[01:17:03.760] Yeah.
[01:17:04.159] For whatever reason. That's not right. I
[01:17:06.239] mean, if there are national security
[01:17:07.679] elements to it, like they don't want to
[01:17:09.280] reveal
[01:17:10.320] certain data that's on the screen or
[01:17:12.239] something, there's ways of removing that
[01:17:15.120] or just showing part of the video or
[01:17:18.800] but you know, it's not a concern of
[01:17:20.480] these people that to try to make any of
[01:17:23.040] this
[01:17:24.000] available to the public. I mean, most of
[01:17:25.679] them are their job is to protect
[01:17:27.840] information from our adversaries and
[01:17:29.520] that's what they're trying to do. So,
[01:17:31.360] they just have a different mindset.
[01:17:35.280] But there's data.
[01:17:36.480] Yeah,
[01:17:37.120] there you're right. There is so much
[01:17:39.920] evidence and information
[01:17:42.159] and we don't even know a lot of it
[01:17:44.159] because it's classified.
[01:17:46.080] Yes,
[01:17:46.960] it's way more than what we think or than
[01:17:49.600] what we're aware of.
[01:17:51.520] That's well that's what you hear, but
[01:17:53.120] then they don't release anything, you
[01:17:54.800] know? I mean, there there was nothing
[01:17:56.159] after those there was the three videos
[01:17:57.840] that you saw back in 2017, right?
[01:18:00.719] Yeah.
[01:18:01.360] And since then it's been nothing. No
[01:18:04.480] more visuals. I mean, the stuff that
[01:18:06.080] leaked out through Jeremy Corbell has
[01:18:07.920] come out.
[01:18:08.320] Yes, that was excellent.
[01:18:09.440] And there's there was some photographs
[01:18:11.120] that I remember George Knap put out that
[01:18:13.360] I actually had had been sitting on for a
[01:18:15.360] few years because I wasn't supposed to
[01:18:16.640] release them. But, you know, nothing
[01:18:19.920] compared to what I know that they do
[01:18:22.480] have from sources I've spoken to. I
[01:18:25.440] mean, the quality of what they have and
[01:18:27.280] the is just
[01:18:30.880] way higher than what we've seen. And
[01:18:32.800] these these things are sitting there in
[01:18:34.400] the vault and there are people that want
[01:18:36.400] them to come out. So maybe they will.
[01:18:39.199] Yeah, I don't see why they don't, you
[01:18:40.960] know. Um Well, I mean, yeah, I see why,
[01:18:44.560] but they should release it.
[01:18:46.239] They should. I mean, their argument is
[01:18:47.679] that they don't want our adversaries to
[01:18:49.040] be aware of what we know because there's
[01:18:50.719] all this competition because everybody's
[01:18:52.239] trying to to to figure out how the
[01:18:54.080] technology works. So, they probably
[01:18:55.840] don't want to give our adversaries any
[01:18:57.440] clues about that technology anymore than
[01:19:00.000] they already have. So that's, you know,
[01:19:02.640] and that's their mentality at the
[01:19:04.239] Department of Defense, and I sort of
[01:19:06.640] understand it, but I'm not fighting for
[01:19:08.719] that position. I'm fighting for the
[01:19:10.159] opposite position.
[01:19:11.600] Not I don't respect their position,
[01:19:14.480] but I think there is more that could
[01:19:16.719] come out in a way that would not be a
[01:19:18.400] danger to national security just because
[01:19:20.159] humanity has a right to this as far as I
[01:19:22.400] see it.
[01:19:23.760] Yeah. I mean, 100%. It Yeah, without a
[01:19:26.960] doubt. My experience in the in the
[01:19:28.719] military, you know, I was there 20 20
[01:19:31.040] years plus, is they're just overly
[01:19:34.800] conservative with classified
[01:19:36.960] information. You know, they they
[01:19:38.400] overclassify everything
[01:19:40.640] and then no one will say, "Yeah, we can
[01:19:42.960] release that." No one, you know, I met
[01:19:44.800] so many people be like, "Look, you know,
[01:19:46.560] I'm going to cover this number up, you
[01:19:49.120] know, whatever. I'm gonna cover this
[01:19:50.320] classified section up so there's nothing
[01:19:53.120] classified on the image." and they they
[01:19:55.040] would not sign off on it, you know, and
[01:19:56.640] they say, "I'm not going to jail, you
[01:19:58.880] know. I'm not going to jail." I'm like,
[01:19:59.920] "You're not going to go to jail." You
[01:20:01.360] know, but
[01:20:02.000] well, if it's officially declassified,
[01:20:04.320] nobody goes to jail. You only go to jail
[01:20:06.320] if you read something that's classified
[01:20:08.239] that you're not supposed to release.
[01:20:10.080] But the problem is no one will
[01:20:11.440] officially declassify.
[01:20:13.120] I know. Well, I mean, it's a
[01:20:14.880] Yeah,
[01:20:15.280] it's a process you have to go through.
[01:20:16.880] But what's interesting is a lot of the
[01:20:18.560] stuff that was at AIP is was never
[01:20:21.040] classified in the first place. I mean
[01:20:23.440] those three videos were not classified
[01:20:27.360] three Navy videos or
[01:20:28.719] yeah they were they were not classified
[01:20:30.560] originally. They just there was a
[01:20:32.400] process they had to go to get approval
[01:20:34.400] for them to be publicly released
[01:20:37.040] which okay they went through and I have
[01:20:38.880] the document and I I think it may have
[01:20:41.040] been released by now but I had all this
[01:20:42.719] stuff back in 2017. the document that
[01:20:45.440] showed the approval by the Department of
[01:20:47.280] Defense and re listed those three
[01:20:49.600] videos,
[01:20:51.199] which was another way we knew that
[01:20:52.640] another reason we knew they were
[01:20:53.840] legitimate at the time. We just weren't
[01:20:55.440] going to release our documents, but um
[01:20:58.640] the they weren't classified. They were
[01:21:00.880] just cleared for public release and they
[01:21:03.040] were unclassified, but and there are
[01:21:05.920] probably other videos in there that are
[01:21:07.600] unclassified. I mean, I'm sure the best
[01:21:09.360] ones may, you know, who knows? But
[01:21:11.920] you're right, the the tendency is to
[01:21:14.719] just automatically classify as much as
[01:21:17.199] possible.
[01:21:18.080] Yes.
[01:21:18.400] And then once it's classified, it's
[01:21:20.080] hard, even though there's a process to
[01:21:22.239] declassify it, it's a bureaucracy and
[01:21:24.560] it's harder to do that. It's harder to
[01:21:26.719] get it released than it would be if it
[01:21:28.239] wasn't classified in the first place.
[01:21:30.800] Um, so it is it's the mentality of the
[01:21:34.560] the agencies that control this
[01:21:36.400] information is just to keep everything
[01:21:38.080] classified. I mean, it's it's the same
[01:21:40.560] thing in at the three-letter agencies
[01:21:42.239] and everywhere,
[01:21:44.080] you know. Um,
[01:21:45.679] there's no incentive for them to
[01:21:46.960] release, you know.
[01:21:48.719] Exactly.
[01:21:50.080] Because they're not their goal is not to
[01:21:51.840] please the public.
[01:21:54.000] That's not what they're about.
[01:21:57.199] So, they they think of themselves as
[01:21:58.880] protecting whatever, investigating,
[01:22:01.760] protecting the public. And so,
[01:22:04.400] it's just a different mentality. And
[01:22:06.080] then you have the few lone people in the
[01:22:08.000] in those worlds who who maybe leave or
[01:22:11.360] even those inside who don't who do want
[01:22:13.520] it to come out, but they're not the
[01:22:16.159] majority. I don't think
[01:22:17.199] hopefully that's changing. I mean, it's
[01:22:18.719] if they're directed to, maybe they'll
[01:22:20.239] have to.
[01:22:20.800] I think that the when you get members of
[01:22:23.120] Congress on this,
[01:22:24.480] yes,
[01:22:24.880] demanding information, that's a huge ch
[01:22:28.480] that's a huge game changer. Exactly.
[01:22:30.960] That's very different from the New York
[01:22:33.120] Times or or a public, you know, citizens
[01:22:36.320] group demanding information. You know,
[01:22:38.560] you have members of Congress, they have
[01:22:40.159] to deliver. So, that's what the real
[01:22:42.560] game changer. That's why this
[01:22:43.600] legislation is so important.
[01:22:44.880] It's funny, too, because nothing on the
[01:22:46.239] phenomena side changed. You know, we
[01:22:49.360] didn't really get any more evidence than
[01:22:50.800] we had, right? We've had tons of
[01:22:52.159] evidence, it sounds like, in the past.
[01:22:54.719] What's changed is is us, you know, or
[01:22:57.199] our side. your methods seem to have been
[01:23:00.400] the most effective, if that makes sense.
[01:23:02.880] Well, at least in getting the ball
[01:23:04.239] rolling, it was effective.
[01:23:05.440] Yes.
[01:23:06.159] But I think the the me the our elected
[01:23:08.560] officials have really been the people
[01:23:10.239] that have moved the ball down. I mean,
[01:23:12.560] if if Congress had never gotten
[01:23:14.239] involved,
[01:23:16.560] I don't think we would have made, you
[01:23:18.159] know, that much progress. Uh I mean,
[01:23:20.560] they're the ones that took the ball and
[01:23:22.239] and got the briefings and they were
[01:23:24.880] confronted with having to deal with this
[01:23:26.480] classified information. I mean, you can
[01:23:28.000] only imagine. I mean, we wrote a story
[01:23:29.520] in July 2020 for the Times, the last one
[01:23:32.320] that Ralph Blumenthal and I did together
[01:23:34.800] about physical materials, crash
[01:23:37.360] retrievalss, and members of Congress
[01:23:40.080] being briefed on that.
[01:23:42.480] I mean, that's got to change their
[01:23:44.639] perspective. You know, there's so much
[01:23:47.199] that they've been told that we don't
[01:23:48.960] know about. So having them take charge
[01:23:53.120] is really what's important
[01:23:55.520] and that's why things are moving forward
[01:23:59.360] um as as I see it. So um and I think
[01:24:03.679] public pressure is really important too.
[01:24:05.199] I mean you know the DoD acknowledging
[01:24:08.239] that the videos were were real and the
[01:24:10.560] Navy changing its reporting guidelines
[01:24:12.560] and all these things that have happened
[01:24:14.639] are partly of course due to public
[01:24:16.480] pressure.
[01:24:18.080] Uh but um and that has to that will
[01:24:20.239] continue I'm sure. But we've we've
[01:24:23.120] scored we've we got a victory here by
[01:24:25.280] getting members of Congress involved in
[01:24:27.199] this to the extent that they have set up
[01:24:29.600] this office now that's going to that has
[01:24:32.080] specific
[01:24:33.600] mandate to do the things we want done.
[01:24:37.760] Yeah. It's a question of how much of
[01:24:39.199] that the public is going to be shown and
[01:24:42.239] how much of it is going to remain
[01:24:43.600] classified. I mean, that's going to be
[01:24:45.920] the challenge because there there'll be
[01:24:47.760] both unclassified reports and classified
[01:24:50.719] reports.
[01:24:53.040] And I think that the members of Congress
[01:24:55.360] who represent the people hopefully will
[01:24:59.360] want as much of it to come out as
[01:25:00.960] possible.
[01:25:03.440] Yeah. Seems like I mean they I've been
[01:25:06.400] very impressed actually by by the
[01:25:08.080] Congress members. Yeah. The ones you
[01:25:10.239] mentioned Heinline again he also had a
[01:25:12.320] good quote on it. So it seems like it's
[01:25:14.239] Yeah.
[01:25:14.560] Hi. Yes.
[01:25:15.600] Yeah.
[01:25:16.400] I mean I think Gil Gillibrand or
[01:25:18.239] Gillibrand, she's been amazing.
[01:25:20.239] Yes.
[01:25:20.719] And she's the senator from New York,
[01:25:22.400] which is my state. So I'm proud of that.
[01:25:25.199] And uh Rubio and you know, we have this
[01:25:27.440] conservative Republican and this
[01:25:28.960] Democrat who have kind of spearheaded
[01:25:30.480] this thing. It's just fantastic.
[01:25:33.199] So I think Joe Lebrand is probably more
[01:25:36.080] oriented towards public exposure maybe
[01:25:38.080] than Rubio is. I don't know. But uh I
[01:25:42.560] think we're going to move more and more
[01:25:43.920] and we have people like Chris Melon and
[01:25:45.920] Lou Alzando working behind the scenes
[01:25:48.560] who care deeply about this information
[01:25:52.080] coming out and we cannot underestimate
[01:25:54.639] the role that they've played in all of
[01:25:56.880] this. I mean they've made it happen
[01:25:59.840] basically. They've had tremendous
[01:26:02.159] influence on the members of Congress who
[01:26:04.080] have taken steps to to make these things
[01:26:06.639] happen. So they're just absolutely
[01:26:10.400] phenomenal what they've been able to
[01:26:11.760] accomplish. We should all recognize
[01:26:13.520] that.
[01:26:15.760] Yeah, they have been amazing. Lou Elon
[01:26:18.960] starting with Harry Reid, you know, we
[01:26:21.840] lost him recently,
[01:26:23.520] right?
[01:26:25.120] This Yeah, it's really changed my
[01:26:27.120] perspective. Um, you know, when you were
[01:26:29.440] talking earlier about surviving death,
[01:26:31.040] you know, the conscious, you know,
[01:26:32.639] basically seeing deceased people. Um, up
[01:26:35.040] until this last year, I was just a
[01:26:36.639] devout atheist essentially. You know, I
[01:26:38.400] believe none of none of that stuff.
[01:26:40.560] And now I've been, now I, it seems like
[01:26:43.600] it's possible, you know. Now I'm like,
[01:26:45.440] it's changed my view. Like it's
[01:26:47.120] literally changed my paradigm.
[01:26:49.360] Uh, which is very, it's very
[01:26:52.080] interesting. Very interesting. Um,
[01:26:54.000] and you know, you can be an atheist and
[01:26:56.000] still understand that maybe
[01:26:58.560] consciousness survives. It's not about
[01:27:00.159] believing in a god.
[01:27:01.840] Yeah. So atheism I I think of that as
[01:27:04.719] well you don't believe in God. You don't
[01:27:06.560] have to believe in God. You just have to
[01:27:08.080] look at cases and things that have
[01:27:09.600] happened and studies that have been done
[01:27:11.760] to think that well maybe when the
[01:27:13.280] physical body dies there's some part of
[01:27:15.600] us some element of our consciousness
[01:27:18.239] that will continue on. And that's the
[01:27:21.360] question but it doesn't require any
[01:27:24.000] belief system in any particular
[01:27:25.520] religion. It has nothing to do with
[01:27:27.120] religion or even beliefs really. It's
[01:27:30.159] just a matter of looking at what's
[01:27:31.679] happened and looking at the data and
[01:27:33.600] deciding how you're going to interpret
[01:27:35.920] it. And and it's also interesting
[01:27:38.000] because these are things that people can
[01:27:40.159] choose to have experiences with which
[01:27:43.440] you cannot do with UFOs. You can't
[01:27:46.080] decide I'm going to see one, right? But
[01:27:48.560] with with this material about
[01:27:50.880] consciousness, you can do things like go
[01:27:52.400] to a medium, you know, and try to
[01:27:54.400] contact somebody who's died or have
[01:27:56.880] various experiences that will show you
[01:27:59.600] directly, you know, or you or if you
[01:28:01.679] lose somebody, you might get signs,
[01:28:03.440] things that you think are messages from
[01:28:05.040] them.
[01:28:06.080] Um, and I wrote about those things in my
[01:28:08.080] book as well because some of these
[01:28:09.280] things happened to me personally and I
[01:28:11.199] actually took the risk of including that
[01:28:14.719] in my book. Um, so it's it's about
[01:28:17.679] evidence, it's about research, but it's
[01:28:19.520] also about what happened to me when I
[01:28:22.320] had these experiences. And you know, it
[01:28:25.679] changes your your worldview when you can
[01:28:28.159] have the experiences yourself. And I
[01:28:29.840] think that's one thing that's so
[01:28:30.880] wonderful is you can choose to do that
[01:28:34.080] in a you know, with with various
[01:28:35.840] elements of this consciousness
[01:28:38.880] work, you know, this consciousness realm
[01:28:41.840] um in a way that you can't do with UFOs.
[01:28:44.719] So, uh
[01:28:46.239] Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, 100%. I'm
[01:28:48.560] I'm going to read I'm going to read this
[01:28:50.080] your book.
[01:28:50.880] Well, I'd be happy to talk to you about
[01:28:52.320] it when you read it.
[01:28:53.679] Yeah. Yeah, that would be cool. Um I
[01:28:55.760] guess but you have to put your eye up to
[01:28:57.760] the telescope, you know, you you have to
[01:29:00.239] be even you have to be remotely um
[01:29:04.560] uh open to the idea. I think, you know,
[01:29:07.280] I think that's maybe that's why the UFOs
[01:29:09.679] have never hit you could get no traction
[01:29:12.960] at all back in 2000 because people would
[01:29:15.600] not even consider it. You know, they
[01:29:16.880] wouldn't even look like Galileo, you
[01:29:18.639] know, they would they wouldn't put their
[01:29:20.080] eye up to the telescope at all.
[01:29:21.760] You're right.
[01:29:22.960] And I wouldn't have, you know, before
[01:29:24.400] this year, I wouldn't have tried to do
[01:29:26.480] any of the med or even considered it,
[01:29:28.159] you know, like or meditating or these
[01:29:30.800] medium investigations or or or I
[01:29:33.520] wouldn't have even considered it, you It
[01:29:34.880] would have been I wouldn't have looked.
[01:29:37.280] I just wouldn't have even put my eye.
[01:29:39.040] Which means you wouldn't read the book
[01:29:40.639] basically. I mean, the people who are
[01:29:42.239] totally non-interested are just not
[01:29:43.840] going to read it.
[01:29:44.800] Yeah.
[01:29:45.040] The people that do read it, they're not
[01:29:46.800] going to be able to walk away from this
[01:29:48.159] book and say there's nothing to any of
[01:29:49.600] this. You just can't possibly do that if
[01:29:51.760] you read the book.
[01:29:53.600] Yeah, I've heard that as well. I watched
[01:29:55.199] another interview where you where you
[01:29:56.480] talked more about it. Um the fast gamma
[01:29:59.440] speeds of the brain. Uh have you heard
[01:30:01.520] that argument? I don't know. I don't
[01:30:03.360] think that I mean no I'm not sure I have
[01:30:06.800] it was um basically when you're there's
[01:30:09.040] different brain wavelengths you know you
[01:30:11.360] go alpha alpha delta theta
[01:30:15.040] uh I guess there's a fast gamma
[01:30:17.520] it's it's very fast up at 80 hertz um
[01:30:20.560] and
[01:30:21.199] and supposedly when you're when you're
[01:30:22.960] dying when you're physically dying uh
[01:30:25.040] your brain will go to that hertz level
[01:30:28.080] oh yeah
[01:30:29.040] and so uh when you the idea is when you
[01:30:32.480] don't die. So, you come back from death.
[01:30:35.199] That's you you've kind of transitioned
[01:30:36.880] to that other dimension or what
[01:30:39.520] whatever. Um, and now you're coming
[01:30:42.400] back. So, that's maybe you can bring
[01:30:43.679] back those those u whatever those
[01:30:46.639] experiences.
[01:30:47.840] Uh, and then this Alexe Noitzky, he's
[01:30:51.440] the one that told me about it. He said
[01:30:53.920] this relates to DMT as well, like the
[01:30:55.920] drug DMT.
[01:30:57.600] Uh, they say, and again, this all
[01:30:59.760] anecdotal, I haven't really investigated
[01:31:01.360] yet. It also puts you in a fast gamma
[01:31:03.920] state. Um, so when people talk about
[01:31:06.719] these weird DMT trips, you know, they're
[01:31:08.960] talking to like elves or gnomes or
[01:31:11.280] something, they they they report it to
[01:31:13.600] talking to beings,
[01:31:15.600] right? And and what if and I wonder if I
[01:31:18.159] mean sometimes they might see UFOs, too.
[01:31:21.920] I I don't know. I mean when people take
[01:31:24.080] Iawaska sometimes they'll encounter UFOs
[01:31:26.480] which is again that's another
[01:31:28.880] example of the role of consciousness in
[01:31:30.960] all of this another mysterious element
[01:31:33.120] you know and
[01:31:34.480] is there some kind of interconnection
[01:31:36.320] between the realm of consciousness and
[01:31:38.320] UFOs and even beings that people might
[01:31:40.960] associate with aliens or whatever they
[01:31:43.440] yeah they cross over into these
[01:31:45.040] different realms that have to do with
[01:31:47.600] consciousness and yeah you know I don't
[01:31:49.679] know what that means
[01:31:52.480] But yeah, it's all fascinating. That's
[01:31:55.280] all I can say. But um it's all
[01:31:58.159] fascinating to me. I mean, the other the
[01:32:00.480] consciousness questions to me are just
[01:32:02.159] as interesting as the UFO question. And
[01:32:06.239] I'm and I think most interesting is
[01:32:08.400] trying to learn more about the
[01:32:09.920] relationship between them. Um so maybe
[01:32:12.080] it is maybe it is not naive but I have
[01:32:15.360] this hope I guess that it this topic
[01:32:19.040] particularly has the potential to kind
[01:32:22.000] of you know unify humanity maybe to
[01:32:25.600] where we we think more of ourselves as
[01:32:28.000] as one or as our own team or cooperate
[01:32:32.159] together instead of just slaughtering
[01:32:33.920] each other. I mean, I actually wrote
[01:32:36.159] about that in the introduction to
[01:32:37.840] surviving death. Um, because I have that
[01:32:40.719] same hope and I I hold out that same
[01:32:42.639] possibility even though it might be a
[01:32:44.400] little naive or idealistic or
[01:32:47.360] simplistic. I don't know. But I I did
[01:32:50.480] write about it. I do think it you you
[01:32:52.719] can't it could have that potential. Um,
[01:32:57.199] both UFOs and consciousness studies, I
[01:33:00.320] think it could unify people more. I I
[01:33:02.480] mean, I I agree with you. I hope it can
[01:33:05.600] have that effect. I don't know if it
[01:33:07.840] will, but I it's a wonderful thing to
[01:33:10.080] have to hold that vision and to
[01:33:13.120] make that be part of the motivation for
[01:33:15.040] doing this work, you know. Um, yeah,
[01:33:18.480] because we're we're all, you know, it
[01:33:20.239] puts us more in a cosmic perspective as
[01:33:22.320] opposed to an individual perspective,
[01:33:25.280] especially if we realize that we're not
[01:33:27.040] alone in the universe and there's other
[01:33:28.560] dimensions of reality and there's all
[01:33:30.400] this stuff going on that's, you know,
[01:33:33.360] the materialist the whole materialist
[01:33:35.920] paradigm is going to have to change and
[01:33:38.560] that's going to affect how we interpret
[01:33:40.880] who we are, right? which inter which
[01:33:44.000] affects how we relate to each other and
[01:33:46.080] how we see each other. So, it's a par
[01:33:49.120] that's what that's what makes it a real
[01:33:50.480] paradigm shift.
[01:33:52.560] And I hope that one of the outcomes of
[01:33:54.159] that is perhaps a sense of greater unity
[01:33:56.400] of of our ourselves as a as one planet,
[01:34:00.000] you know, as opposed to like you said.
[01:34:03.600] Um, so that's a good thing to hope for,
[01:34:06.719] right?
[01:34:07.199] Yeah. World peace. That would be
[01:34:08.719] amazing. I don't know. But anyway,
[01:34:11.840] never have that. But maybe people will
[01:34:13.840] have more of an understanding of their
[01:34:15.280] connection to each other, you know, and
[01:34:18.159] their their sameness, their underlying
[01:34:22.239] consciousness that's something bigger
[01:34:24.080] than just our physical bodies that we
[01:34:26.080] all are part of the same
[01:34:28.880] realm of consciousness, you know, or
[01:34:30.560] something like that. Um
[01:34:33.199] that it just Yeah, I mean I I live with
[01:34:35.440] that. I feel that. Uh so it just changes
[01:34:39.040] your perspective and
[01:34:43.360] it it brought the thought of the the
[01:34:46.000] book editing a book. you mentioned, you
[01:34:48.800] know, maybe we won't we'll realize we're
[01:34:50.480] not just all in our own you get other
[01:34:54.639] other feedback, you know, from outside
[01:34:57.040] and then maybe that'll
[01:35:00.000] get us out of our own head, you know.
[01:35:02.000] Yeah, it's a good metaphor, you know,
[01:35:03.600] better idea, a bigger picture. Um,
[01:35:07.520] yeah, like you said, there's there's
[01:35:09.120] enough there's enough resources and
[01:35:10.800] money in the world, you know, there's
[01:35:12.320] there's enough evidence. Uh, we just
[01:35:14.639] need to go and look at it. I think it's
[01:35:16.239] kind of how it works. and yeah and try
[01:35:18.080] to put it all together. That's the
[01:35:19.679] challenge. How does it all inter
[01:35:21.760] interreact inter relate to each other,
[01:35:24.239] you know?
[01:35:25.600] Um and that's a fascinating challenge.
[01:35:29.199] So,
[01:35:31.199] excellent. Yeah.
[01:35:32.080] Well, thank you Leslie. Thanks for all
[01:35:33.600] your time. Um
[01:35:34.800] it was great talking with you Chris.
[01:35:36.480] Thank you for your work you're doing and
[01:35:38.400] you have a fantastic podcast and I
[01:35:40.400] encourage you to keep going and I'm glad
[01:35:42.960] you've come on board with us.
[01:35:45.280] Yeah. Thanks. No, I'm glad I've been
[01:35:47.040] accepted, you know, hopefully in the UFO
[01:35:49.440] community. But yeah, thanks for all
[01:35:51.679] thanks for all the work you've done.
[01:35:53.040] Thanks for the book. Excellent book, The
[01:35:54.639] UFOs. And thanks all. Uh it sounds like
[01:35:57.679] Surviving Death is also a great book.
[01:35:59.199] I'm I'm sure it is. So, thank you,
[01:36:01.920] Leslie. And uh
[01:36:02.960] thanks, Chris. It was great speaking
[01:36:04.159] with you. Take care.
[01:36:05.440] Okay, take care. Special thanks to
[01:36:07.600] Leslie Kane. She was so awesome to work
[01:36:09.199] with. Obviously, a true professional,
[01:36:11.520] and she's out there today grinding.
[01:36:13.440] Expect to see that video. whatever
[01:36:15.920] series she's working on right now for a
[01:36:17.760] major television network. Man, I'm so
[01:36:19.679] excited for that. Excited to read
[01:36:21.360] Surviving Death. Excited to read all
[01:36:23.040] your comments and very excited for 2022.
[01:36:25.280] So, keeps me motivated. Hope you guys
[01:36:26.960] enjoyed it. Thanks for watching. As
[01:36:28.800] always, have a great day. piece.