The Joe Rogan Experience #2503 - Eric Weinstein (May 21, 2026)

• Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OKNS5j0lSY
• Channel: PowerfulJRE
• Published: 2026-05-21
• Duration: 2:53:33
• Extraction: complete English auto-generated YouTube captions retrieved with youtube_transcript.py --timestamps, 2026-08-28
• Fidelity note: automated captions preserve source timing but may contain recognition and speaker-attribution errors.
• Analytical page: ../../sources/eric-weinstein-uap-claims

---

[00:00:01.880] Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe
[00:00:04.360] Rogan experience. TRAIN BY DAY, JOE
[00:00:07.080] ROGAN PODCAST BY NIGHT. All day.
[00:00:12.560] Um I was like
[00:00:14.480] there's only one way [music] to do this,
[00:00:15.480] I have to just not drink for a while.
[00:00:17.120] So, I took like 8 months off and then I
[00:00:18.680] had like a margarita at dinner once. I
[00:00:20.200] was like, "Oh, I miss this."
[00:00:21.840] And then I had a glass of wine here or
[00:00:23.760] there.
[00:00:24.160] >> I was wondering how that was going to
[00:00:25.200] hold up. Yeah. Yeah, but I but you're
[00:00:27.720] not I know that you're not captured by
[00:00:29.600] it. No, no, no. It was just
[00:00:31.560] >> our religious observance requires it.
[00:00:34.000] You require abstinence or drinking?
[00:00:36.560] >> we drink. What when do you have to
[00:00:38.680] drink?
[00:00:39.000] >> Shabbat every come any Friday.
[00:00:41.400] How much do you drink on Shabbat? I
[00:00:43.480] probably have two and a half glasses of
[00:00:44.920] wine. Is there like a number that you're
[00:00:46.640] supposed to hit otherwise you're bad at
[00:00:48.200] it?
[00:00:48.360] >> to be what? Well, that that's Purim.
[00:00:51.080] What is
[00:00:51.440] >> We should get into Purim. We're getting
[00:00:53.080] into it.
[00:00:53.440] >> All right. Do we need glasses? You want
[00:00:54.720] to have a drink?
[00:00:56.160] Uh usually I
[00:00:57.840] you you want I tend to go a while, so we
[00:00:59.360] usually do that at the end. Well, let's
[00:01:01.280] let's get some ice and some glass Are we
[00:01:02.960] rolling already?
[00:01:03.640] >> I've been rolling yeah. Okay. Let's get
[00:01:05.080] some Tell Jeff to get us some ice and
[00:01:06.680] some glass and a bottle of
[00:01:08.760] >> say anything wrong. Um Buffalo Trace.
[00:01:11.960] Do you want to wait till I get back to
[00:01:13.320] start cuz we either haven't started or
[00:01:15.200] we started. We started. [ __ ] it.
[00:01:17.800] We started. Let's just roll. We'll get
[00:01:19.240] Jeff to do it.
[00:01:21.880] What's that?
[00:01:23.080] I don't even have headphones. Are we
[00:01:24.040] rolling still?
[00:01:24.720] >> doing headphone [ __ ] We can.
[00:01:26.320] Headphones, no headphones, I don't give
[00:01:27.720] a [ __ ] I don't give We we mix it up.
[00:01:29.440] Okay.
[00:01:29.840] >> You know. What do you Do you Are you
[00:01:31.120] more comfortable You got a nice head of
[00:01:32.160] hair. What? See, for me it doesn't
[00:01:33.640] matter. I feel bad when people like work
[00:01:35.240] on their hair real good, like especially
[00:01:36.800] ladies, and they get it all nice and
[00:01:38.600] then they have to [ __ ] smoosh it with
[00:01:40.200] this thing.
[00:01:40.680] >> Okay, if you ever have that kind of
[00:01:42.320] consideration for me, I'm going to be
[00:01:43.880] very disappointed. I thought we were
[00:01:44.960] closer.
[00:01:46.400] Some people worry about that.
[00:01:47.920] >> No, I worry about that. The gray.
[00:01:50.520] That you have gray in your hair? Oh,
[00:01:51.680] it's Yeah, look at it.
[00:01:53.000] >> Well, you're like pretty dark for your
[00:01:55.320] age. How old are you now? 60. Yeah, you
[00:01:58.160] you [ __ ] dark ass hair for your age.
[00:02:00.760] If I let my If I had hair and it grew
[00:02:02.520] out like my side hair.
[00:02:03.796] >> [clears throat]
[00:02:03.800] >> It's mostly gray now.
[00:02:05.479] Yeah. Yeah.
[00:02:06.920] I I should have some gray hair in my
[00:02:08.399] eyebrows a little bit. What's that? I
[00:02:09.960] should have thought ahead like you did.
[00:02:11.720] What, shaved it?
[00:02:12.560] >> Yeah, shaved it when it everyone knew it
[00:02:14.040] wasn't gray and then it's just normal.
[00:02:15.600] Cuz like it's very clear if I shave it
[00:02:17.200] now. I think you can avoid gray hair
[00:02:20.120] with proper supplementation. At least
[00:02:22.200] that is the the thought today. Okay.
[00:02:25.320] >> That with enough zinc and copper
[00:02:28.400] and that that somehow or another that's
[00:02:30.440] involved in the diet. Oh my god. I'm
[00:02:33.040] talking out of my ass here.
[00:02:34.600] I don't know that much about um
[00:02:37.080] what causes your hair to go gray. This
[00:02:38.760] is Austin tap. Other than this is
[00:02:40.840] Buffalo Trace. Older than America.
[00:02:43.320] Really? Yeah. This is
[00:02:45.480] a distillery from 1773
[00:02:49.040] I believe they started.
[00:02:50.760] Wow.
[00:02:51.200] >> them apples, huh? It's like that Chinese
[00:02:53.280] sounding beer, Yanjing or something.
[00:02:55.080] Cheers. Cheers, my friend.
[00:02:57.000] Buffalo Trace is like you Why is there
[00:03:01.160] their beard really old? Beard really
[00:03:02.800] old?
[00:03:03.959] Um
[00:03:05.400] They have a old beer. Yanjing.
[00:03:08.519] Is it old as [ __ ]
[00:03:09.400] >> Jamie knows everything. I feel
[00:03:11.320] you know people 1829. You see. Oh.
[00:03:15.080] I
[00:03:15.800] People say I have this AI I'm using
[00:03:17.480] Claude, I'm using
[00:03:18.959] chat GPT. I use Jamie.
[00:03:20.600] >> Jamie, right. For sure. I use Jamie cuz
[00:03:22.760] he's way better than AI. He's way way
[00:03:24.000] better than AI cuz he's kind of psychic.
[00:03:25.920] You're a little psychic, right?
[00:03:27.480] >> a little bit. Well, I mean I've listened
[00:03:29.080] to you talk a lot.
[00:03:30.257] >> [laughter]
[00:03:30.480] >> My My theory is is that he also looks
[00:03:32.720] ahead. He knows sort of where you're
[00:03:34.440] likely to head so he's got it ready.
[00:03:36.800] >> He knows how my goofy [ __ ] brain
[00:03:38.600] works. Yeah, for sure.
[00:03:41.480] Good to see you, my brother.
[00:03:42.360] >> see you.
[00:03:43.239] Hello, Joe. How was your your
[00:03:46.800] What what what was it exactly? How would
[00:03:48.640] you describe it? A speech,
[00:03:50.400] a presentation?
[00:03:51.239] >> a talk on dark energy uh to the
[00:03:55.560] Karch group at the U Texas U Texas
[00:03:58.000] Austin physics department.
[00:03:58.880] >> Ah, this is what I wanted to ask you
[00:03:59.920] about. Michio Kaku has been saying that
[00:04:01.880] he believes that dark energy is possibly
[00:04:03.920] something leaking in from another
[00:04:05.440] dimension. Is that Look AT THAT FACE.
[00:04:08.247] >> [laughter]
[00:04:12.240] >> YOU
[00:04:13.160] GO ON. HE GAVE A LITTLE SIDE EYE. WELL,
[00:04:15.480] let's see what he says. James, see if
[00:04:17.040] you can find that, please.
[00:04:18.920] I think He said it was gravity leaking.
[00:04:22.480] >> colonies and put them together as a kid
[00:04:24.560] just to see what happens.
[00:04:26.840] Did I? No, I never did that.
[00:04:28.440] >> I did [clears throat] that. Uh why? Just
[00:04:29.800] watch them fight?
[00:04:30.520] >> Oh, yeah.
[00:04:30.919] >> Oh, you [ __ ] psycho.
[00:04:31.880] >> Yeah, a little bit.
[00:04:32.560] >> No, I never did any of that. You were
[00:04:34.360] saying about Michio. Yeah, that he I I
[00:04:36.800] just I didn't even read it. I just saw
[00:04:39.040] it and went, "Oh, Jesus, I got to talk
[00:04:40.360] to Eric about this."
[00:04:41.653] >> [laughter]
[00:04:43.080] >> Michio just dark matter isn't matter at
[00:04:45.800] all. It's gravity leaking in from a
[00:04:47.600] parallel dimension.
[00:04:50.200] And this guy won't do mushrooms. Isn't
[00:04:51.600] that wild?
[00:04:52.788] >> [snorts]
[00:04:53.800] >> Uh
[00:04:56.160] What do you think about that?
[00:04:57.200] >> when I was here and
[00:04:58.600] I said, "Get Michio Kaku in here with
[00:05:01.000] me."
[00:05:01.360] >> Yeah. What What is it What is about
[00:05:03.440] Well, clearly he's a brilliant guy. He
[00:05:05.560] He is and was a brilliant guy. He's
[00:05:08.800] decided to do something else and to be
[00:05:11.640] entirely honest, I don't love going
[00:05:14.280] after other named people. In general, my
[00:05:17.200] stick is that I go hard after
[00:05:19.160] institutions.
[00:05:20.840] I'm a huge institutional supporter and
[00:05:23.240] their worst nightmare in the current
[00:05:24.960] world.
[00:05:26.040] Individuals I don't like beefing with. I
[00:05:28.240] I watch all of the energy
[00:05:30.760] the beauty of life lost to beefing with
[00:05:32.680] people. Michio Kaku is doing a
[00:05:34.000] tremendous amount of damage
[00:05:36.080] to theoretical physics. How so?
[00:05:39.640] Um
[00:05:43.640] Theoretical physics is in my estimation
[00:05:45.440] the most beautiful, most powerful, most
[00:05:48.200] economically potent thing you can do
[00:05:50.200] with your life.
[00:05:52.120] And we are the best.
[00:05:54.360] The United States is, in my opinion,
[00:05:56.480] the greatest nation in the history of
[00:05:58.600] the Earth for theoretical physics.
[00:06:00.800] Because we are cowboys, we are
[00:06:02.320] irreverent.
[00:06:04.480] We are the We are the people who
[00:06:05.960] invented the atomic and hydrogen bombs,
[00:06:08.480] the semiconductor.
[00:06:10.680] Um
[00:06:12.840] This is what we do. And we've lost the
[00:06:15.920] ability to do it
[00:06:18.120] at an at a level that I cannot believe
[00:06:20.360] happened during my watch, my lifetime.
[00:06:23.160] So, from 1984
[00:06:25.080] to the present,
[00:06:26.400] those 42 years
[00:06:28.120] have been the greatest intellectual
[00:06:31.520] implosion, I think, that I know of,
[00:06:35.040] where people just got dumber.
[00:06:36.760] And what do you think is the cause? I'm
[00:06:37.760] going to distract this
[00:06:39.680] human and Quantum gravity.
[00:06:41.640] Quantum gravity did it? Yep. Mhm.
[00:06:44.640] In 1984, there was a result,
[00:06:47.880] and it's called the Green-Schwarz
[00:06:49.720] anomaly cancellation.
[00:06:51.919] And the guy that I've talked to you
[00:06:53.600] about before in UFO context, the guy who
[00:06:56.840] is Louis Witten's son, Louis Witten,
[00:06:59.400] happy happy birthday, turned 105,
[00:07:02.640] um was the anti-gravity guy from the
[00:07:04.480] '50s. His son, Edward Witten,
[00:07:07.240] decided that the 1984 Green-Schwarz
[00:07:09.720] anomaly cancellation meant
[00:07:12.240] that we should all all the smartest
[00:07:14.400] people should pile into one narrow
[00:07:16.520] sub-specialty,
[00:07:18.520] and that that was the future.
[00:07:20.600] And because he was so much smarter than
[00:07:21.960] all of us,
[00:07:23.400] people listened, and I didn't.
[00:07:25.840] And Michio Kaku is part of his wave.
[00:07:29.280] Almost all of the people that you've
[00:07:30.720] traditionally had on in physics
[00:07:33.919] have some connection to this. You So,
[00:07:35.800] you've had on,
[00:07:37.320] I don't know, probably
[00:07:39.120] Sean Carroll,
[00:07:41.160] uh
[00:07:41.880] Neil de Grasse Tyson
[00:07:43.880] Brian Greene
[00:07:46.080] Nobody wanted to say what was happening,
[00:07:48.200] which is that we were we were being
[00:07:49.560] unraveled and destroyed. Our ability to
[00:07:52.480] be the world's greatest theoretical
[00:07:54.080] physicist was being
[00:07:56.400] eroded year by year for 42 years.
[00:07:59.800] >> it was the pursuit of string theory?
[00:08:02.880] It's not string theory itself that's the
[00:08:05.320] problem. String theory is harmless. It's
[00:08:06.880] just a bunch of equations, a bunch of
[00:08:08.320] ideas, and it's beautiful mathematics in
[00:08:10.640] many places. So
[00:08:12.880] um
[00:08:13.919] that's not an issue. The issue is the
[00:08:16.800] exclusion of everything else.
[00:08:20.160] And this goes into the name TOGIT or the
[00:08:22.320] only game in town, t o g i t. Mhm. And
[00:08:25.560] it's this idea that only we
[00:08:28.280] the enlightened
[00:08:30.440] can do theoretical physics and the rest
[00:08:32.200] of you are
[00:08:33.719] just doing finger exercises and you're
[00:08:35.280] too stupid to know it. So specifically
[00:08:37.440] like what is
[00:08:40.120] what what's isolationist about string
[00:08:43.039] theory? Like what is it about this one
[00:08:44.960] particular theory that all this thought
[00:08:47.520] has been pushed into that?
[00:08:50.000] The claim is
[00:08:52.400] that there's this thing called UV
[00:08:55.839] complete physics. There's no way that we
[00:08:58.880] can have a discussion about that
[00:08:59.920] directly. If I could ask Jamie, could I
[00:09:02.560] impose upon you to call up on YouTube
[00:09:06.680] Wheel of Fortune
[00:09:08.680] and then use I've got a good feeling
[00:09:10.800] about this.
[00:09:12.320] I can explain it to you. Wheel of
[00:09:14.360] Fortune I've got a good feeling about
[00:09:15.760] this?
[00:09:16.040] >> a good feeling about this.
[00:09:17.080] >> Okay. Is that an episode of Wheel of
[00:09:18.600] Fortune?
[00:09:18.880] >> It'll be over briefly. It's very very
[00:09:20.880] quick. It's about a minute and a half or
[00:09:22.480] something. And
[00:09:24.680] the key point is it's a tight analogy
[00:09:26.920] for the problem faced in physics that
[00:09:28.960] anyone can understand. So I don't people
[00:09:31.080] think I try to make things complicated.
[00:09:32.560] I really try to make them
[00:09:33.520] understandable, but what I do is I talk
[00:09:35.520] about things
[00:09:37.080] I don't know that you've ever had anyone
[00:09:38.440] talk about UV completeness on the Joe
[00:09:40.160] Rogan show.
[00:09:40.520] >> I don't believe so. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:09:42.040] >> said, okay, put your headphones on.
[00:09:43.400] >> Yeah.
[00:09:45.440] Well, you're not going to be able to
[00:09:46.080] hear it unless you have headphones on.
[00:09:47.760] I know it like the back of my hand.
[00:09:51.120] Wheel of Fortune. We need a phrase this
[00:09:54.960] time. That's the category for this
[00:09:56.280] puzzle, and it is A PRIZE PUZZLE.
[00:10:00.641] >> [applause]
[00:10:01.680] >> GO AHEAD, RICK.
[00:10:02.800] GLADLY.
[00:10:08.501] >> [applause]
[00:10:11.840] >> AND WHAT DO WE GET HERE? 500. R.
[00:10:15.160] WELL, you'd think there'd be an R in
[00:10:16.400] there somewhere, wouldn't you? Oh, Rick.
[00:10:21.602] >> [applause]
[00:10:26.187] [applause]
[00:10:26.800] >> L. Uh one L.
[00:10:30.772] >> [applause]
[00:10:32.400] >> It's really fun.
[00:10:33.800] What's that? Can I solve?
[00:10:37.480] Okay.
[00:10:38.040] >> a prize puzzle. Yeah. I've got a good
[00:10:41.040] feeling about this.
[00:10:43.320] THAT'S RIGHT.
[00:10:44.527] >> [screaming]
[00:10:44.760] >> THAT'S INSANE.
[00:10:47.147] >> [applause and cheering]
[00:10:47.839] >> THAT LADY'S A WIZARD.
[00:10:49.760] That lady is what I want to do with my
[00:10:51.960] life.
[00:10:53.040] That is what great physics looks like.
[00:10:55.000] It's totally irresponsible.
[00:10:56.972] >> [snorts]
[00:10:57.880] >> And you know, Pat Sajak is like trying
[00:10:59.680] to
[00:11:00.520] ask her, like, how'd you do that? And
[00:11:03.040] she says, well, I got a good feeling
[00:11:04.200] about this. You know, and the the funny
[00:11:06.000] part about it is you can figure it out.
[00:11:08.520] The if you if you go back, can Jamie,
[00:11:10.839] can you show the board right there?
[00:11:13.040] Yeah.
[00:11:14.120] So, clearly that apostrophe is a huge
[00:11:17.000] clue, right? So, the idea is that if you
[00:11:19.640] read that property, is it isle?
[00:11:21.880] Is it I've?
[00:11:23.440] Right? And then there's no R. Um
[00:11:27.360] so
[00:11:28.760] think about all of those blank squares
[00:11:31.040] as orders of magnitude that you are away
[00:11:33.720] from the energies that would allow you
[00:11:35.640] to do experiments that would explain
[00:11:37.120] physics. And think about the apostrophe,
[00:11:39.200] the L in that pattern,
[00:11:41.520] as well as the fact that it there's no R
[00:11:43.800] as the standard model of physics.
[00:11:46.920] So, right now, what you have is a debate
[00:11:49.200] about whether or not we should buy more
[00:11:50.960] and more letters with higher and higher
[00:11:52.640] energy.
[00:11:54.240] Or, like should we build bigger
[00:11:55.680] accelerators and spend more treasure
[00:11:57.920] trying to collide particles?
[00:12:00.440] Or should we just Caitlyn our way out of
[00:12:01.920] this? So, Caitlyn Burke is my model of
[00:12:04.560] what I think we're supposed to be doing.
[00:12:06.920] So, an exceptional mind with an ability
[00:12:10.600] to see or propose things that other
[00:12:13.000] people aren't seeing. How I guarantee
[00:12:15.720] you that if we studied this, if we spent
[00:12:18.200] a a month with the world's smartest
[00:12:19.960] people on this puzzle,
[00:12:21.760] we'd learn that there are certain things
[00:12:24.440] that were present that, you know, that
[00:12:26.680] that that the frequency of certain the
[00:12:28.320] fact that there's a single letter there
[00:12:29.760] that almost certainly is I or A. She she
[00:12:32.400] took a tiny number of clues.
[00:12:35.320] But, here's the really important thing.
[00:12:37.120] Jamie, can we show the the the filled-in
[00:12:39.480] puzzle?
[00:12:45.120] So, you'll notice that the word this
[00:12:48.040] could be changed to that because the
[00:12:50.640] only letter that's been excluded is an
[00:12:52.440] R.
[00:12:53.760] Mhm. So, that is what the issue of
[00:12:56.400] unique UV completion is. In other words,
[00:13:00.120] you a unique UV completion would say
[00:13:02.720] there's [clears throat] only one phrase
[00:13:04.160] that fits there. She guessed. She
[00:13:05.680] couldn't have known it isn't I've got a
[00:13:07.400] good feeling about that or I've got a
[00:13:09.400] nice feeling
[00:13:11.280] about this or that. So, it's actually
[00:13:13.760] not
[00:13:15.280] um
[00:13:16.360] or I'll get a good feeling about this.
[00:13:18.320] But, all of those were much less
[00:13:19.720] probable
[00:13:21.280] because
[00:13:23.440] they're just not as natural.
[00:13:25.280] So, this is a combination of science,
[00:13:28.320] guesswork,
[00:13:30.000] and raw courage. Like the the the most
[00:13:32.440] marvelous thing about that exchange is
[00:13:33.720] she says, "I
[00:13:34.760] Can I solve?"
[00:13:36.520] And there's like he's not even sure he's
[00:13:38.360] hearing her properly.
[00:13:40.160] And then finally he says, "Okay." That's
[00:13:41.960] that's gatekeeping. Can I put this ar-
[00:13:44.400] article on the archive? Can I give a
[00:13:46.080] seminar in your department?
[00:13:48.680] I want to solve the puzzle. And a lot of
[00:13:50.920] what we're arguing about is that the
[00:13:52.600] string theorists are the only ones who
[00:13:55.520] have the right to try to solve the
[00:13:57.840] puzzle
[00:13:59.560] at the moment. So, imagine that somehow
[00:14:01.400] there's a rule that only Rick, poor Rick
[00:14:04.000] who guesses that there's an R. Imagine
[00:14:06.480] that he's the only one allowed to solve
[00:14:08.080] the puzzle. And when she asks, "May I
[00:14:09.720] solve the puzzle?"
[00:14:12.040] No, no, no, you can't. That's
[00:14:13.120] pseudoscience. You're a charlatan.
[00:14:15.880] That's [ __ ] you know,
[00:14:17.400] that is crank physics. Mhm. So, that's
[00:14:22.040] what the problem that we're facing is is
[00:14:23.840] that we've got one group that got
[00:14:26.200] control of the gatekeeping
[00:14:28.840] who is very good at mathematics,
[00:14:31.440] extremely bad at physics.
[00:14:34.839] And they've redefined what physics is
[00:14:37.120] and what good science is, where they're
[00:14:38.920] the only ones who are guessing the
[00:14:40.120] puzzle. They can't guess the puzzle.
[00:14:42.800] And everyone else is like Here's a crazy
[00:14:45.240] story from yesterday.
[00:14:48.320] I wasn't allowed to say that I gave a
[00:14:49.839] talk in the physics department even
[00:14:51.240] though
[00:14:52.400] any normal person would say that that
[00:14:54.680] happened. And I wasn't allowed to do
[00:14:56.400] that when I visited a physics
[00:14:59.160] institution in Canada. I wasn't allowed
[00:15:01.280] to say that I was visiting for a week.
[00:15:03.800] Nor was I allowed to say that I gave a
[00:15:05.280] seminar that lasted 9 hours. But you
[00:15:07.520] just did.
[00:15:08.080] >> Yeah.
[00:15:08.960] Are you a lawbreaker? I'm breaking the
[00:15:11.360] rules now because I've Now I've had it.
[00:15:14.400] I agreed I agreed to not do this. And
[00:15:16.720] I'm And with these missing scientists,
[00:15:19.800] I've changed my mind.
[00:15:21.595] >> [snorts]
[00:15:23.600] >> I'm not going to deal with these people
[00:15:25.080] anymore. And whatever is going on with
[00:15:27.080] science and the suppression of different
[00:15:28.920] ideas
[00:15:31.800] um is terrifying.
[00:15:35.640] Right now we have a situation. I You
[00:15:37.160] know, I gave a talk at the University of
[00:15:38.480] Chicago. There's no record of it.
[00:15:42.440] Who's asking you to do these talks and
[00:15:43.960] who's asking you to not give a record?
[00:15:46.000] You don't have to name names.
[00:15:47.040] >> Yeah, particular people.
[00:15:49.400] In general, the funny part is that the
[00:15:51.000] people who asked me to give talks in the
[00:15:52.400] physics departments
[00:15:54.280] are the most courageous person in each
[00:15:56.320] department.
[00:15:58.520] So, the problem is that the person that
[00:16:00.440] I you you end up feeling resentful
[00:16:02.440] towards. How dare you tell me that I
[00:16:03.920] can't give this talk in this department
[00:16:05.880] officially
[00:16:07.040] is the person who's arranging for your
[00:16:08.480] stay
[00:16:10.880] and is arranging for the the room.
[00:16:14.040] And they are under the most pressure
[00:16:15.440] from the institution. So, the
[00:16:16.880] institution is forcing them to say
[00:16:19.760] you you're allowed to do give the talk,
[00:16:22.640] but you're not allowed to talk about it
[00:16:24.520] on social media, you're not allowed to
[00:16:26.640] Right. advertise that you're doing it,
[00:16:28.040] you're not allowed to say that you're
[00:16:29.080] doing it. So, in this case in the case
[00:16:31.000] of of U Texas physics department, I was
[00:16:33.200] allowed to say I'm speaking in the Cart
[00:16:35.120] group seminar.
[00:16:36.560] It's like a condom to make sure that the
[00:16:38.480] physics department doesn't get pregnant.
[00:16:39.880] Well, isn't that really bizarre because
[00:16:41.920] University of Austin, Texas was supposed
[00:16:44.080] to be a university that fixed all the
[00:16:46.960] [ __ ] that was wrong with other
[00:16:49.680] universities? It's much much more insane
[00:16:51.600] than that. This was the home of Steven
[00:16:53.640] Weinberg who moved from Harvard to Texas
[00:16:56.280] because the money the oil money was used
[00:16:58.160] to buy brains.
[00:16:59.640] So,
[00:17:00.800] heart basically Texas raided Harvard for
[00:17:03.520] people like John Tate in the math
[00:17:04.920] department, Steven Weinberg who was the
[00:17:06.439] probably the greatest living
[00:17:08.560] uh theorist. And that was the
[00:17:10.959] continuation of the Bryce DeWitt group
[00:17:14.280] from North Carolina Chapel Hill that was
[00:17:16.520] set up to do anti-gravity by Agnew
[00:17:18.640] Bahnson.
[00:17:19.720] So, you're right next to
[00:17:21.920] an amazing physics department
[00:17:24.640] with a crazy history.
[00:17:26.800] Um that in fact touched anti-gravity.
[00:17:30.120] This is one of the one of the
[00:17:32.000] tiny number of places that has a
[00:17:34.360] a real legacy in that department. And I
[00:17:36.400] I was speaking there on gravity.
[00:17:39.360] On dark energy.
[00:17:41.800] And
[00:17:45.320] I Look, I've been lying my whole life
[00:17:47.840] about my relationship with the physics
[00:17:49.520] world because of this pressure.
[00:17:52.080] They can't listen to me if I say I'm a
[00:17:53.880] physicist, so I say I'm an entertainer.
[00:17:56.832] >> [laughter]
[00:17:57.480] >> Yeah.
[00:17:58.320] But then people say, "Well, why would
[00:17:59.320] you do that? Why would you say that
[00:18:00.440] you're an entertainer when you obviously
[00:18:02.800] are conversant in all this stuff?" And
[00:18:04.320] the answer is, "I don't want to die. I
[00:18:06.720] don't want to lose my ability to enter a
[00:18:08.920] physics department." So, I take on this
[00:18:10.840] completely wrong persona.
[00:18:13.240] And you know, I have the emails. You're
[00:18:14.880] not giving a talk, you're having
[00:18:16.760] conversations in room 5308.
[00:18:19.920] It literally says you're not giving a
[00:18:21.120] talk?
[00:18:21.560] >> I could read what it is that they write
[00:18:23.720] to me. So
[00:18:24.400] >> Why but why what is the benefit of this
[00:18:26.560] formal declaration or this formal
[00:18:29.280] designation of the way you're talking?
[00:18:31.120] So, when I was at a physics institute in
[00:18:33.280] Canada
[00:18:34.520] I
[00:18:35.280] I was told, "We're worried that you're
[00:18:36.880] going to use it to legitimize yourself."
[00:18:40.920] It's like
[00:18:42.280] I'm going to do that. Of course I'm
[00:18:44.200] going I have a PhD from Harvard, you
[00:18:46.440] stupid I I mean
[00:18:49.240] Like
[00:18:50.080] you guys imagine I'm I'm I'm I'm a
[00:18:51.680] podcast guest?
[00:18:54.320] This episode is brought to you by
[00:18:56.440] Squarespace. Once you've got a great
[00:18:58.480] name for your business, you need a great
[00:19:00.680] domain. And Squarespace makes it easy to
[00:19:04.160] lock in a domain. You just search the
[00:19:06.280] name you want, buy it, and then you're
[00:19:08.440] ready to build. No hidden fees, no weird
[00:19:11.400] upsells. Go to squarespace.com/rogan
[00:19:15.280] for a free trial. And when you are ready
[00:19:17.480] to launch, use the code Rogan to get 10%
[00:19:20.120] off your first purchase of a website or
[00:19:22.480] domain.
[00:19:23.840] Right, just a regular dude with some
[00:19:25.760] wacky ideas. Right. And so the idea is I
[00:19:27.960] have to play that character
[00:19:30.320] as opposed to I have
[00:19:31.640] >> Legitimizing yourself is a very bizarre
[00:19:34.160] phrase. Tell me about it.
[00:19:35.400] >> That's cuz it's assuming that you're not
[00:19:37.760] legitimate.
[00:19:39.360] Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, I
[00:19:40.840] don't think you're understanding this.
[00:19:42.200] But no, I am understanding it. But but
[00:19:44.160] from their perspective, saying that
[00:19:46.280] you're going to use it to legitimize
[00:19:47.480] yourself and your ideas is a really
[00:19:49.680] crazy way to phrase it. Because like
[00:19:52.520] you're they're acting from the
[00:19:53.600] assumption that you're not legitimate.
[00:19:55.600] >> So that's their
[00:19:57.600] You remember when like I think Reagan
[00:19:59.080] thought I forget who it was. Reagan
[00:20:00.520] thought they were recallable missiles.
[00:20:02.920] Where you could turn them around?
[00:20:03.840] >> Right. Sorry, we changed our mind. So
[00:20:06.720] Like a base jumper who's also a suicide
[00:20:08.560] jumper.
[00:20:09.143] >> [laughter]
[00:20:11.920] >> On second thought.
[00:20:13.728] >> [laughter]
[00:20:14.000] >> Halfway in, he's like, "Ah, [ __ ] this.
[00:20:15.520] No, I like I like this."
[00:20:16.480] >> Yo, a lot of these people who survived
[00:20:17.680] jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge, they
[00:20:19.080] learn like I I love life. Yes. Yes, most
[00:20:22.360] of them.
[00:20:22.680] >> They're reborn. Yeah. Um so what I would
[00:20:24.840] say is
[00:20:26.960] the problem is that I am
[00:20:29.720] I don't I don't I don't
[00:20:31.000] This is not a boast, as you know I don't
[00:20:33.640] usually put my credential first.
[00:20:35.920] I'm probably the most blue chip
[00:20:39.280] defector from the institutions. Mutant
[00:20:42.000] mutineer, let's put it call it that.
[00:20:44.520] Um I have a I have essentially perfect
[00:20:46.880] credentials.
[00:20:49.360] And that's the problem.
[00:20:51.280] So it's not a question about you're
[00:20:53.040] going to legitimize you. I already
[00:20:54.400] legitimized myself by
[00:20:57.160] Harvard PhD, MIT post doc, NSF post
[00:21:00.320] doctoral fellow, ONR top in the country,
[00:21:02.800] Sloan Foundation grantee. I've been in
[00:21:04.640] math, physics, economics departments.
[00:21:07.040] I'm so bulletproof.
[00:21:09.240] So, that's the problem.
[00:21:10.120] >> That's the problem. That's the problem.
[00:21:11.480] It's not that you're a cook that
[00:21:13.000] >> That's what I was what I was trying to
[00:21:13.800] say, you didn't understand. No, I do
[00:21:15.320] understand. I just don't understand why
[00:21:17.280] they want to do that, too. That's what's
[00:21:19.320] bizarre.
[00:21:19.920] >> narrative
[00:21:20.960] Okay. I am I am the greatest danger
[00:21:24.080] to the narrative.
[00:21:26.240] I'm I'm the most followed mathematician
[00:21:29.160] in the United States, maybe the world.
[00:21:30.960] Hannah Fry maybe
[00:21:32.760] above it.
[00:21:34.320] That danger to the narrative
[00:21:36.760] is the problem. Well, specifically for
[00:21:38.640] people that don't know what we're
[00:21:39.480] talking about, what is
[00:21:41.360] to make this a stand-alone show, the
[00:21:42.760] people that not aware of your work, what
[00:21:44.560] is it that about you and your ideas
[00:21:47.880] that they are so hesitant to platform?
[00:21:52.800] Or legitimize, or why you're such a
[00:21:54.920] danger. Okay, so in 2001
[00:21:58.160] I said mortgage-backed securities were a
[00:22:00.520] great danger to the world. I have one of
[00:22:02.000] the first published papers on the danger
[00:22:03.920] of illiquid of the pricing of illiquid
[00:22:05.800] securities.
[00:22:07.400] Uh
[00:22:07.960] I went on Chris Williamson's show and he
[00:22:10.080] asked me who's going to win, Biden or
[00:22:12.840] Trump. I said you don't even know
[00:22:13.840] whether Biden's going to make it to
[00:22:15.040] November. I said that that people
[00:22:17.680] representatives of the Democrat Party
[00:22:19.000] reached out to me and said stop talking
[00:22:20.760] about Biden's dementia.
[00:22:22.800] You need your affirmation that you're
[00:22:24.160] seeing something real. We've put in
[00:22:25.640] three people
[00:22:27.240] uh as a committee to replace the
[00:22:29.000] president. And I I said like, I'm
[00:22:30.800] supposed to feel good about that?
[00:22:33.080] Um
[00:22:34.440] so I keep
[00:22:35.520] >> They Well, they told you they put in
[00:22:37.320] three people?
[00:22:38.280] >> They put in a committee of three people,
[00:22:39.760] and if you knew who those people were,
[00:22:41.120] you'd be pleased as punch, so shut up.
[00:22:44.320] That's what they said to you?
[00:22:45.080] >> Yeah, correct. You would be really
[00:22:47.200] happy, so shut up.
[00:22:48.720] >> Yeah. They didn't even tell you who the
[00:22:49.760] people were?
[00:22:50.880] I think that they did, and I've
[00:22:52.160] conveniently forgot them. Though, one of
[00:22:53.960] them might have been the chief of staff.
[00:22:55.515] >> [laughter]
[00:22:56.825] [sighs and gasps]
[00:22:57.200] >> Wow. So That's like But I say But I say
[00:23:00.240] this, right? And I'm not trying to
[00:23:05.680] I mean, I keep lots of secrets that
[00:23:07.200] people ask me to keep that I should
[00:23:09.320] keep. Things that having to do with
[00:23:10.680] national security, for example.
[00:23:13.120] But these people are incompetent.
[00:23:15.560] And they're a danger to us. And right
[00:23:17.360] now that the string theory narrative is
[00:23:19.080] a complete danger. It's not string
[00:23:20.920] theory that's the problem. It's the It's
[00:23:22.520] the only game in town.
[00:23:24.520] And so, you know, there was a
[00:23:29.320] Look, people are willing to spend their
[00:23:31.040] entire credibility
[00:23:34.560] just to make me go away. Could you
[00:23:37.440] briefly just describe like what What is
[00:23:39.840] the So, there's not a problem with
[00:23:41.600] string string theory? Or is string
[00:23:43.480] theory not complete? Or is string theory
[00:23:45.560] readed
[00:23:46.960] Has it reaped actual results?
[00:23:49.600] Mathematically, it's reaped results. And
[00:23:51.760] string theorists have occasionally
[00:23:54.720] done really great work in in a subject
[00:23:56.760] called quantum field theory. But quantum
[00:23:58.640] field theory isn't about the quantum
[00:24:00.440] field theory of the world.
[00:24:03.040] Quantum field theory is like calculus.
[00:24:04.480] It's something that's very useful. And
[00:24:06.880] it it grew up in physics.
[00:24:09.160] But we've now found out that quantum
[00:24:10.360] field theory has to do with pure
[00:24:12.320] problems in mathematics that have
[00:24:14.240] nothing to do with physics.
[00:24:16.000] And
[00:24:17.400] what they haven't done is they haven't
[00:24:19.040] dealt with the physical world. So, if
[00:24:20.640] you take physics, why why do we care
[00:24:22.280] about physics so much more than really
[00:24:24.040] almost any other aspect of the sciences
[00:24:25.920] other than biology?
[00:24:29.840] I had to give a talk at the New York
[00:24:31.680] Deep Tech Week. Shout out to those guys.
[00:24:34.520] And I I put it on the slide as uh three
[00:24:37.400] things. There's boom, vroom, and zoom.
[00:24:40.320] Easy to remember. Boom is weapons.
[00:24:43.320] Physics will create weapons that
[00:24:46.120] you'll
[00:24:47.120] dwarf every everything else.
[00:24:49.200] With the possible exception of
[00:24:50.360] biologicals.
[00:24:52.520] Uh
[00:24:53.520] zoom uh vroom is energy.
[00:24:56.640] And the story of energy is basically the
[00:24:58.520] story of prosperity and control. If you
[00:25:01.000] look at wealth and the amount of fossil
[00:25:02.920] fuels burned, it's more or less like a
[00:25:04.800] one-to-one correlation as to which
[00:25:06.720] nations are rich and poor
[00:25:08.880] per capita. And zoom is everything else.
[00:25:12.160] It's propulsion,
[00:25:13.760] it's computation,
[00:25:16.320] it's communication.
[00:25:18.640] And those things, if you if you take
[00:25:20.440] them together,
[00:25:21.960] um more or less define the economy and
[00:25:24.360] the world order. Physics is
[00:25:26.920] the center of
[00:25:29.160] what makes us
[00:25:32.120] modern humans. And
[00:25:35.200] it became too dangerous in the 1950s.
[00:25:39.040] Even the 40s, you know, atomic weapons
[00:25:41.200] are extremely bad, but they're not
[00:25:42.880] hydrogen bombs.
[00:25:44.760] Um somehow in November of '52 everything
[00:25:48.000] changed. And
[00:25:50.680] we became
[00:25:52.280] we became too dangerous. The the
[00:25:53.920] community of physicists is the most
[00:25:55.720] powerful group of people made into
[00:25:58.400] completely
[00:26:00.200] uh ineffectual humans.
[00:26:02.400] And do you think this is by design?
[00:26:04.160] Partially. And what what what was the
[00:26:06.000] purpose of it? By by saying that you
[00:26:07.720] became that physicists became too
[00:26:09.720] dangerous, the ideas became too
[00:26:11.200] dangerous. Is the idea that the weapons
[00:26:13.440] would become so immense and powerful
[00:26:16.840] that they had to do something to stop
[00:26:18.200] and curb that? Well, we didn't know how
[00:26:19.400] to control it, right? So, in other
[00:26:21.320] words, for example, in the in 1940,
[00:26:24.800] we set up something called the reference
[00:26:26.640] committee, which I'm sure your listeners
[00:26:28.120] have never heard of. And the reference
[00:26:29.760] committee lived inside of the National
[00:26:31.240] Research Council. Now, why was it
[00:26:32.680] important?
[00:26:34.160] Because chain reaction physics was so
[00:26:36.480] hot.
[00:26:37.840] Once the neutron was found, right? So,
[00:26:40.120] think about neutrons as bullets.
[00:26:42.200] Um
[00:26:42.800] they can go right into the middle of an
[00:26:44.240] atom because they're they're not
[00:26:45.760] positively charged, so they're not going
[00:26:47.200] to be repelled by the nucleus.
[00:26:49.480] And they can bust apart atoms that are
[00:26:51.840] base barely being held together and
[00:26:53.800] that's why you you get bullets begetting
[00:26:56.400] bullets begetting bullets and that's
[00:26:57.720] what a chain reaction is.
[00:26:59.280] The people who were doing that in the 40
[00:27:01.040] in the 30s
[00:27:02.800] suddenly found that when they mailed off
[00:27:04.400] a paper to a journal
[00:27:06.400] if they weren't part of the secret group
[00:27:07.920] in Los Alamos
[00:27:10.360] their paper got held up
[00:27:12.520] and sent back for revisions.
[00:27:15.600] And there was no money in it. We we
[00:27:17.440] secretly set up this thing to shunt real
[00:27:20.160] research
[00:27:21.600] into the National Research Council. I
[00:27:23.320] think this was organized by a guy named
[00:27:25.480] Breit, B R E I T.
[00:27:28.720] And
[00:27:30.640] that was the beginning of this whole
[00:27:31.960] peer review control mechanism. And this
[00:27:34.480] control, do you think is this ego-based?
[00:27:37.160] That the people who are the gatekeepers
[00:27:38.840] want to remain in the position of
[00:27:41.280] We all want to survive, Joe. I mean,
[00:27:43.080] this is a real problem. So, you and I
[00:27:45.080] can hate on the institutions all we want
[00:27:47.000] from the safety of the JRE.
[00:27:49.360] But
[00:27:50.840] what are you going to do when it becomes
[00:27:52.600] really, really easy
[00:27:54.880] for people to commit
[00:27:57.640] like mass [clears throat] murder. If you
[00:27:59.120] think about all the really bad math like
[00:28:00.800] the the Vegas shooting that never really
[00:28:03.560] got sorted out.
[00:28:05.400] It's very hard to kill large numbers of
[00:28:07.560] people using things like bullets.
[00:28:11.360] If you want to really kill large number
[00:28:12.880] of people, you're going to go to
[00:28:13.760] biologicals and you're going to go to
[00:28:15.280] nuclear.
[00:28:16.920] And what happens when that becomes easy?
[00:28:19.280] Like maybe it's a lot easier to build
[00:28:20.880] these weapons than the way we currently
[00:28:22.920] do it. Right now, we're we're uh
[00:28:25.360] bottlenecked on things like centrifuges.
[00:28:28.520] And by the way, who knows what the next
[00:28:30.160] innovation in physics is going to bring?
[00:28:32.040] So, I always say this thing about if
[00:28:33.400] you're not tracking everybody at my
[00:28:35.080] level
[00:28:36.440] what are you doing as an intelligence
[00:28:38.000] service?
[00:28:38.800] Is this part of your concern about the
[00:28:40.480] missing scientist?
[00:28:41.280] >> Yeah, yeah, of course.
[00:28:42.080] >> Yeah, so the missing scientist narrative
[00:28:44.320] um for people that aren't aware of it, I
[00:28:46.320] think they're up to 15 now, and a lot of
[00:28:48.400] people say that some of these
[00:28:49.280] connections are baseless and that some
[00:28:51.320] of them it's just
[00:28:52.560] >> really up to 15. No, okay. So, what do
[00:28:54.640] you think we're actually up to?
[00:28:55.720] >> I don't know. Probably
[00:28:58.320] five or six. But, I saw someone online
[00:29:01.160] do a breakdown of it, and essentially
[00:29:02.920] they were saying that the odds of this
[00:29:04.640] being a coincidence are off the charts.
[00:29:07.680] The the people that are all involved in
[00:29:10.240] very specific types of technological
[00:29:12.360] technological research,
[00:29:14.280] different things that are top secret,
[00:29:17.200] that all of these people either wind up
[00:29:19.240] missing, There's a lot of murder in math
[00:29:21.560] and physics, first of all. People don't
[00:29:23.160] really appreciate that.
[00:29:25.440] Um you know, the Unabomber was a famous
[00:29:27.040] PhD mathematician.
[00:29:29.320] Uh
[00:29:29.960] He's a big story, though. There's
[00:29:31.320] there's a lot of them.
[00:29:32.080] >> There was a guy named Cantor who
[00:29:35.320] uh broke into David Rittenhouse
[00:29:37.400] Laboratories in the University of
[00:29:39.560] Pennsylvania, where I was an
[00:29:40.360] undergraduate, and shot up a seminar.
[00:29:43.040] Um
[00:29:44.200] there was uh
[00:29:45.680] you know, this
[00:29:47.120] situation in Iowa, where a relative of
[00:29:49.840] mine got a seat in the physics
[00:29:51.160] department um because somebody was
[00:29:53.560] killed by one of the graduate students.
[00:29:55.600] I think it became a movie, like Dark
[00:29:57.000] Matter.
[00:29:58.320] So, there's an incredible amount of
[00:30:00.720] murder.
[00:30:02.200] Uh the ball-peen hammer uh killing of
[00:30:05.360] was it Karl Delue by
[00:30:07.680] um
[00:30:09.200] uh Streleski at Stanford. So, first of
[00:30:11.960] all, there's just a lot of death because
[00:30:13.840] mathematicians and physicists are
[00:30:16.200] somewhat close to unhinged.
[00:30:19.160] And it's it's a really nasty There's a
[00:30:20.880] lot of nasty culture, and sometimes it
[00:30:22.920] becomes violent.
[00:30:23.760] >> Why do you think they're close to
[00:30:25.200] unhinged?
[00:30:28.360] You spend that much time in your head.
[00:30:30.840] I I'm amazed that I'm as well grounded
[00:30:32.960] as I am.
[00:30:34.021] >> [laughter]
[00:30:34.400] >> No, seriously. You're just way out in
[00:30:35.760] the stratosphere.
[00:30:38.000] I I I completely forget who I am, where
[00:30:40.120] I am, that I'm even a human being. That
[00:30:42.200] When you're using your body as an
[00:30:43.440] instrument as you as you do
[00:30:45.640] um in combat sports and training, you
[00:30:48.160] become a different thing.
[00:30:50.120] You know.
[00:30:51.240] You know that archery thing where you
[00:30:52.240] have to Mhm.
[00:30:54.200] twist your arm.
[00:30:55.640] A lot of people don't know that they can
[00:30:56.640] do that initially. Like it's just a
[00:30:58.000] small thing like that. Or you know how
[00:30:59.840] >> about archery thing that you twist your
[00:31:01.080] arm?
[00:31:02.760] If you have an old style bow, you often
[00:31:05.760] get burned by the Oh, that you have to
[00:31:08.200] twist your arm like that so that you
[00:31:09.400] don't
[00:31:09.960] >> Yeah.
[00:31:10.360] >> you don't like this and get hit.
[00:31:11.640] >> Right. But but you you you don't see
[00:31:13.480] See, but then you twisted your your
[00:31:14.760] wrist. You keep your wrist straight.
[00:31:16.880] Just I don't do that kind of archery.
[00:31:18.400] That's why I'm confused.
[00:31:19.280] >> Well, okay. Sorry. You do real This this
[00:31:21.640] kind. Yeah. You keep your hand like
[00:31:23.160] that. Okay.
[00:31:24.800] Um Well,
[00:31:26.040] >> issue. But like if you're if you're if
[00:31:27.440] you're a sniper, you know, there are all
[00:31:28.720] sorts of things about breathing and and
[00:31:30.080] your eye how you adjust your eyes and
[00:31:32.040] >> Right.
[00:31:33.000] You use your body as an instrument as a
[00:31:34.960] mathematician or a physicist. One of the
[00:31:36.440] reasons that I I wish I were in better
[00:31:38.280] shape is that in order for me to keep my
[00:31:40.040] mind in a particular way, I have to not
[00:31:43.800] think constantly about suppressing food,
[00:31:46.560] you know. So what you're doing a you're
[00:31:48.400] doing a very unnatural thing. Mhm. And
[00:31:52.520] that unnatural thing
[00:31:54.880] uh
[00:31:55.440] not everybody can handle it.
[00:31:57.840] Right. I see what you're saying.
[00:31:59.320] >> And we snap. And also
[00:32:01.200] our minds are more perfect. The
[00:32:02.680] messiness of the world and the
[00:32:04.640] perfection of our minds is at odds with
[00:32:06.760] each other.
[00:32:08.040] And I love disappearing into math and
[00:32:10.840] physics because it's perfect.
[00:32:12.200] >> But how's that lead to violence?
[00:32:14.600] Um you're upset because people are
[00:32:16.440] lying, you know. You're you're like the
[00:32:18.360] the Unabomber had a had a really
[00:32:20.040] interesting points.
[00:32:22.440] He wasn't a dumb guy. He was really
[00:32:24.240] correctly
[00:32:25.600] You know, he has a
[00:32:26.640] an amazing story called Ship of Fools. I
[00:32:29.280] highly recommend anybody read it. Just
[00:32:31.360] the way Charles Manson's Look at Your
[00:32:33.480] Game Girl is a great song.
[00:32:36.507] >> [snorts]
[00:32:36.760] >> Yeah. It's a great sign.
[00:32:38.640] Okay. Yeah. I Um
[00:32:42.640] We're not comfortable in part with
[00:32:45.680] coming back to the
[00:32:47.200] the half measures and the the special
[00:32:49.640] pleading that sort of
[00:32:51.520] characterizes normal life. So,
[00:32:54.160] to get back to the missing scientist
[00:32:55.560] narrative, um
[00:32:58.000] I don't think there are 15 missing
[00:32:59.200] scientists in this data set. That's
[00:33:00.720] [ __ ]
[00:33:01.920] It seems like they're adding as many as
[00:33:03.320] they can. Yeah, they're
[00:33:05.000] They're trying to make connections that
[00:33:06.240] don't seem to add
[00:33:07.400] >> It's It's like It's like the
[00:33:08.440] junkification of the UFO narrative. All
[00:33:10.560] of these narratives have a junk to them
[00:33:13.960] so that I believe a lot of the junk is a
[00:33:17.160] fix to the narrative so that those who
[00:33:19.760] want to follow the institutional
[00:33:21.280] instruction to ignore the fact that this
[00:33:23.280] is happening can point to the
[00:33:25.440] crappiness.
[00:33:27.440] Right? And so, that's the out.
[00:33:29.640] And the really difficult thing that you
[00:33:31.280] do, and you do really well, is you try
[00:33:34.040] to
[00:33:34.920] piece together, okay, what's [ __ ]
[00:33:36.640] what's real? There's a lot of real in
[00:33:38.560] the UFO story and there's a lot of
[00:33:39.960] nonsense. There's a lot of real in the
[00:33:42.160] COVID story and a lot of nonsense. The
[00:33:44.320] same thing is true for physics. But,
[00:33:46.120] physics is more dangerous.
[00:33:48.320] And the fact that we're not tracking
[00:33:51.880] Like, I always wonder why they allow me
[00:33:53.640] to come on the
[00:33:54.920] JRE
[00:33:57.000] and say stuff.
[00:33:59.480] I know a lot of stuff that I don't know
[00:34:01.040] what it unlocks.
[00:34:03.200] And
[00:34:03.440] >> Well, it's easy to dismiss anybody who
[00:34:05.160] comes on here. Sure, but China is
[00:34:06.840] smarter than And by the way, the LLMs, I
[00:34:09.040] mean, look, there are a lot of threads
[00:34:10.919] here.
[00:34:12.919] To get back to the physics, um and I'm
[00:34:15.040] giving a talk tomorrow on at the at the
[00:34:18.080] U Texas Austin on supporting science,
[00:34:21.639] math, and physics and renewing our
[00:34:23.879] commitment to it.
[00:34:25.600] I don't want to give the impression that
[00:34:27.440] it isn't dangerous or that the
[00:34:28.840] gatekeeping is stupid. It's really
[00:34:30.879] important to do great gatekeeping around
[00:34:33.800] mathematics and physics. It's
[00:34:35.480] cryptography, it's weaponry, it's
[00:34:38.120] propulsion.
[00:34:39.760] It's, you know, a sudden change in the
[00:34:41.480] world economy.
[00:34:43.600] Um if you figured out how to do fusion,
[00:34:47.200] it would have immediate geopolitical
[00:34:49.480] results.
[00:34:50.600] So, these specific scientists that are
[00:34:52.879] missing,
[00:34:54.560] whatever the number is, five, six that
[00:34:56.360] you think are legitimate, what what
[00:34:58.240] specifically are they working on that's
[00:35:00.040] so dangerous? Well, the fusion guy,
[00:35:02.120] obviously, is at MIT, is anybody who
[00:35:06.320] might I I don't know. Fusion isn't my
[00:35:08.760] thing, plasma is my thing.
[00:35:10.880] Um
[00:35:12.000] but that is
[00:35:13.120] unquestionably
[00:35:14.760] dangerous if you imagine how much
[00:35:16.360] depends on oil. And is there is it a
[00:35:18.720] good assumption that if you have one
[00:35:21.000] incredibly brilliant person that's at
[00:35:22.480] the head of this thing and they make a
[00:35:24.200] breakthrough, if you kill that guy, the
[00:35:26.600] whole thing is in disarray because the
[00:35:29.280] people that are under him,
[00:35:31.240] whatever people he has working with him,
[00:35:33.640] aren't as fully immersed in it as he is,
[00:35:37.160] that you can kind of like handicap a
[00:35:39.400] problem?
[00:35:40.840] It's like let's say if there's
[00:35:42.240] >> five people.
[00:35:43.040] >> It's an energy thing. Let's say if it's
[00:35:44.440] an energy thing. Let's say if someone
[00:35:45.920] has some new technology that's going to
[00:35:47.560] completely disrupt the fossil fuels
[00:35:49.200] industry and they go, "Listen, we can
[00:35:51.880] kill this [ __ ] guy and it's still
[00:35:54.280] coming down the pipe, but we'll delay it
[00:35:56.440] by 10 years and make $15 trillion." So,
[00:36:03.040] this is the question about the far right
[00:36:04.920] tail, like the extreme right tail of
[00:36:06.960] human intelligence and ability.
[00:36:09.280] And if you think about certain areas
[00:36:10.920] where you have a dominant figure,
[00:36:13.200] uh Rodney Mullen in skateboarding, for
[00:36:15.560] example,
[00:36:16.720] what percentage of all tricks derive
[00:36:19.480] from Rodney Mullen? You couldn't have
[00:36:21.440] stopped skateboarding, but you could
[00:36:23.200] certainly have held it back by getting
[00:36:24.920] to Rodney Mullen.
[00:36:26.480] Right?
[00:36:27.480] Um when it comes to, you know, guitar,
[00:36:30.120] the the amount of impact that uh Jimi
[00:36:33.680] Hendrix and Eddie Van Halen had is just
[00:36:37.120] wildly disproportionate.
[00:36:39.400] You know, when when when I was doing my
[00:36:40.440] podcast, I was really excited to do
[00:36:42.280] Rodney Mullen and Eddie Van Halen
[00:36:44.120] together.
[00:36:45.440] I wanted to get them, you know, totally
[00:36:47.000] different sports, but um
[00:36:50.480] those two guys are sort of the same.
[00:36:51.960] They just created so much vocabulary you
[00:36:54.280] can't even imagine it. And
[00:36:56.280] >> Eddie Van Halen doesn't get the credit
[00:36:57.560] he deserves, either.
[00:36:59.360] Oh, tell me. Talk to me. Well, it's just
[00:37:01.920] Van Halen
[00:37:03.760] became Van Hagar
[00:37:06.360] and it became a different kind of music.
[00:37:10.720] And I think a lot of the original
[00:37:13.200] hardcore fans left, but a lot I think it
[00:37:16.000] got more popular with Sure. Sammy Hagar,
[00:37:19.080] but it was a different kind of music.
[00:37:21.920] And not that it's bad, but it's
[00:37:23.840] different. And then I think a lot of
[00:37:26.000] people just went, "Nah."
[00:37:27.960] But like if you go like to
[00:37:31.440] you know, some of the like big Van Halen
[00:37:34.640] with David I think Van Halen with David
[00:37:37.000] Lee Roth in his prime was a literally a
[00:37:38.840] perfect band. It was phenomenal. That
[00:37:40.680] was They were the [ __ ] when I was in
[00:37:42.320] high school. I mean, it was everybody
[00:37:43.720] had Van Halen on their notebooks. They
[00:37:46.200] made the VH
[00:37:47.440] >> it. They were awesome. And they were so
[00:37:50.800] good. [snorts] And Van Halen and Eddie
[00:37:52.600] specifically could shred so hard and
[00:37:56.120] some of those classic riffs.
[00:37:58.400] I just don't think in the mainstream
[00:38:00.400] world he got the credit that he
[00:38:02.560] deserves.
[00:38:05.040] I see it differently. Well, people
[00:38:06.560] mention Clapton, who of course is a
[00:38:08.440] great wizard.
[00:38:09.920] Always it's number one is Hendrix. Most
[00:38:11.920] people have Hendrix as number one
[00:38:13.400] because he was so revolutionary. Well,
[00:38:15.040] nobody's going to say Allan Holdsworth.
[00:38:17.120] Yeah, I don't know who he is. Exactly.
[00:38:18.600] Yeah. I mean, my my my point is is that
[00:38:20.960] um
[00:38:22.680] David Lee Roth kept Eddie Van Halen from
[00:38:25.360] becoming Allan Holdsworth.
[00:38:27.840] And
[00:38:29.680] that's Who is Allan Holdsworth?
[00:38:32.160] Oh, it's interesting. Allan Holdsworth
[00:38:35.280] Like if you talk to your hot [ __ ]
[00:38:36.600] guitarist friends,
[00:38:38.520] they will very often
[00:38:40.560] Like everybody will just pause and say,
[00:38:42.080] "Well, yeah, I don't That's Allan
[00:38:43.280] Holdsworth."
[00:38:44.480] Really? Yeah.
[00:38:46.200] And it's sort of like listening to a
[00:38:48.200] modem for normal human beings.
[00:38:51.200] Right? Um that's why it's just just not
[00:38:53.480] popular. And so Eddie Van Halen was this
[00:38:55.200] >> he play with?
[00:38:56.920] I don't know. Allan Holdsworth. Just by
[00:38:58.560] himself? Yeah. And can we just actually
[00:39:01.040] weirdly put Allan Holdsworth just like
[00:39:03.080] choose something with a
[00:39:04.000] >> Yeah, yeah, we'll listen to some of his
[00:39:05.160] music.
[00:39:05.400] >> So we might have We'll edit it out of
[00:39:06.880] the episode because otherwise we'll get
[00:39:08.280] dinged on YouTube.
[00:39:08.800] >> Okay, why don't we Okay, but like
[00:39:10.640] >> it. We'll play it and then we'll just
[00:39:11.840] come right back to it.
[00:39:12.480] >> All right, let's do that. Give me some,
[00:39:13.960] Jamie. Was it Is there any specific song
[00:39:16.280] that you'd like? No, it's all
[00:39:18.400] It's all mind melting.
[00:39:19.440] >> So I can see if He's got
[00:39:20.647] >> [snorts]
[00:39:20.680] >> anything popular we might have known so
[00:39:22.280] I could tap tap into that, but I don't
[00:39:24.680] see nothing.
[00:39:26.400] Like Is there a song that you like that
[00:39:28.560] you could recommend? I just listen to a
[00:39:30.640] certain amount of it and then I don't
[00:39:32.040] listen to it again. I'm not at that
[00:39:33.560] level where I need Allan Holdsworth.
[00:39:36.520] Okay. What does that mean? No, what does
[00:39:38.200] that mean?
[00:39:38.987] >> [laughter]
[00:39:39.560] >> Thank you, Jamie.
[00:39:41.280] I'd rather see some guy flying through
[00:39:42.920] the air with like
[00:39:44.227] >> [laughter]
[00:39:44.600] >> his pants on fire than listen to Allan
[00:39:46.440] Holdsworth.
[00:39:49.520] Okay, here we go. Live in Tokyo. 1984,
[00:39:52.160] live in Tokyo.
[00:39:53.040] >> Tokyo Dream.
[00:39:59.200] See if you can use the histogram to
[00:40:01.240] figure out like where the nerds are
[00:40:02.960] going.
[00:40:04.920] Histogram? Yeah, it shows you like where
[00:40:07.320] people spend their time on a video. Oh,
[00:40:09.560] really?
[00:40:12.000] I would go right into the middle of it
[00:40:13.200] or something.
[00:40:14.560] I'm already checking on what he's doing
[00:40:15.800] there. Oh.
[00:40:22.400] This concert sell out or Nothing's going
[00:40:24.440] on right now. Put it in the middle,
[00:40:26.200] Jamie.
[00:40:53.160] What is Is that a uh
[00:40:54.920] You've heard this before, though? Yeah.
[00:40:56.480] What Is that a bass? What is the other
[00:40:58.400] guitar I'm hearing?
[00:40:59.880] Cuz that is not matching up with with
[00:41:01.600] that bass player seems to be playing. Do
[00:41:04.080] you hear that extra guitar?
[00:41:07.520] That's slower
[00:41:08.723] >> [music]
[00:41:08.920] >> and off time.
[00:41:10.880] I don't know.
[00:41:18.640] That's a bass, I think.
[00:41:20.320] So
[00:41:20.600] >> It doesn't sound like he's playing it.
[00:41:22.040] >> My My guitarist friends would just
[00:41:23.720] salivate.
[00:41:25.280] And I'll look at them
[00:41:27.160] It wouldn't help.
[00:41:28.360] I'll [laughter] look at I mean, no
[00:41:30.200] offense, but it's
[00:41:33.480] It's [laughter]
[00:41:35.120] can't be very
[00:41:36.440] It sounds like jazz, right? So, it's
[00:41:38.640] like jazz guitar. Like, there's no
[00:41:41.120] there's no singing.
[00:41:42.200] >> sir.
[00:41:43.438] >> [laughter]
[00:41:44.000] >> If I put on If I
[00:41:48.680] No more Jerry Jerry.
[00:41:50.560] I've had it.
[00:41:51.953] >> [sighs]
[00:41:53.000] >> Oh, Jerry. [snorts]
[00:41:54.920] Jamie, you were going to have so much
[00:41:56.320] nerd hate. I mean, I've never said
[00:41:58.400] anything people will agree with me, too,
[00:42:00.440] I believe.
[00:42:01.000] >> 100% More will agree with you.
[00:42:03.720] That was my point. I think David Lee
[00:42:05.200] Roth had some
[00:42:06.880] had some comment about if it weren't for
[00:42:08.480] me, the brothers would be
[00:42:10.880] playing biker bars in the far valley or
[00:42:13.040] something, you know? And so David Lee
[00:42:14.880] Roth came up with what we would call the
[00:42:16.760] syntactic sugar, the thing that made Van
[00:42:20.160] Halen
[00:42:22.000] fun and listenable and danceable. Like
[00:42:24.080] Dance the Night Away. Yeah.
[00:42:26.640] I didn't like Van Halen. I loved that
[00:42:28.520] song.
[00:42:28.920] >> What? I never liked Van Halen.
[00:42:30.800] >> Oh, how dare you?
[00:42:32.000] >> I loved Eddie Van Halen and I loved that
[00:42:34.400] song.
[00:42:38.000] >> I didn't You want to I'm even
[00:42:40.440] embarrassed about that. The one I'm
[00:42:41.720] embarrassed about I completely dismissed
[00:42:44.440] AC/DC in real time because I'm an idiot.
[00:42:47.760] Oh. I've never been more wrong about
[00:42:49.760] something in my life.
[00:42:50.920] >> How did you dismiss AC/DC?
[00:42:52.960] >> Good question.
[00:42:54.400] They had a dumb thing going on with the
[00:42:56.960] school pants and the dirty deeds done
[00:42:59.720] dirt cheap and
[00:43:00.960] >> [ __ ] song. What great song. Well, you
[00:43:02.600] know,
[00:43:03.400] like musically Hot for Teacher is an
[00:43:05.680] amazing composition. Yeah. Unbelievable,
[00:43:09.320] right? But it's the key thing that they
[00:43:12.080] figured out is making things marketable.
[00:43:14.720] Right. Right? And that's David Lee Roth.
[00:43:16.640] And I think it's David Lee Roth.
[00:43:18.720] >> Yeah. And [clears throat] but he was so
[00:43:19.640] charismatic and did jumping splits.
[00:43:23.320] Yeah, he was a man. Amazing. Amazing.
[00:43:25.200] And he had a
[00:43:26.560] a secret weakness for old-timey music.
[00:43:29.560] Right.
[00:43:30.200] >> Right? Like Just a Gigolo, Ice Cream
[00:43:32.280] Man, all that kind of stuff. So he's
[00:43:34.400] like a almost a throwback to 1930s for
[00:43:38.000] you know, even earlier, vaudeville. He's
[00:43:40.280] an odd guy. Have you ever met him? I've
[00:43:42.320] wanted I've wanted to so badly. I'm so
[00:43:44.880] jealous. But I I don't think you ever
[00:43:46.640] really get to him.
[00:43:48.280] It's always the show.
[00:43:50.360] Like in podcasts, it's a little like I
[00:43:52.280] really enjoyed talking to him, but it's
[00:43:53.520] a little odd.
[00:43:54.280] >> I've seen I didn't love the way he was.
[00:43:57.160] My my feel like I would I would go the
[00:43:59.080] Jewish angle. I
[00:44:00.520] I would connect to him based on shared
[00:44:02.240] cultural heritage, but
[00:44:04.080] what I think about Eddie
[00:44:07.880] is that Eddie wasn't just a guitarist.
[00:44:10.120] He was an electronics guy. He was a
[00:44:11.600] keyboard player. He was
[00:44:14.120] handsome as the day is long,
[00:44:16.960] bursting with charisma.
[00:44:19.920] And like you and I mostly don't know
[00:44:21.680] whether guys are good looking. I know
[00:44:23.160] Eddie Van Halen was good looking.
[00:44:25.360] Tell me more.
[00:44:28.080] He He He was the whole thing. Yeah, for
[00:44:30.640] sure. Right.
[00:44:31.520] >> Rockstar. Yeah, and so my feeling is is
[00:44:33.480] that those two guys
[00:44:35.600] really
[00:44:37.120] You know, it's it's one of those things
[00:44:38.280] where you have two guys in a band that
[00:44:40.840] you know, both of them are are one in a
[00:44:42.360] one in a billion kind of people and they
[00:44:43.680] happen to meet.
[00:44:46.840] I
[00:44:47.520] I
[00:44:48.880] I'm happy to be wrong about Van Halen,
[00:44:50.520] but I didn't do it in real time. I came
[00:44:52.040] to it later, but I remember the first
[00:44:53.680] time I heard Van Halen 1,
[00:44:55.880] I had the same
[00:44:57.720] mystical thing. What is that? Nothing
[00:45:01.280] sounds like this.
[00:45:03.440] I've almost never had that in music. You
[00:45:05.400] know, the first time I heard uh Smells
[00:45:06.880] Like Teen Spirit, what is that?
[00:45:09.600] Those You know, there are these moments
[00:45:11.000] where something discontinuous happens.
[00:45:12.600] >> But you heard like Ain't Talkin' 'bout
[00:45:14.360] Love and that never got you?
[00:45:17.360] No, Panama doesn't get me.
[00:45:19.000] >> Ain't Talkin' 'bout Love is a [ __ ]
[00:45:21.240] jam.
[00:45:22.866] >> [sighs and gasps]
[00:45:24.800] >> When was the last time you listened to
[00:45:25.760] it?
[00:45:28.200] This year.
[00:45:30.000] And nothing?
[00:45:31.480] It's not that.
[00:45:33.240] Well, okay. So, part part of the
[00:45:35.040] >> the thing is is that do you do you play
[00:45:37.240] an instrument? When you play an
[00:45:38.600] instrument
[00:45:39.720] >> Yeah, I don't play anything. You know,
[00:45:41.360] the thing about Eddie Van Halen is is
[00:45:42.800] that he accepted the geometry
[00:45:45.640] of the neck of the guitar.
[00:45:48.080] And
[00:45:49.080] very often you see musicians say, "I
[00:45:50.600] don't care what key it's in. I I I can
[00:45:52.360] figure out how to do anything." Eddie
[00:45:53.680] Van Halen didn't do that. He said,
[00:45:55.040] "Look, there's certain things that this
[00:45:56.880] thing makes possible.
[00:45:59.200] And I'm going to I'm going to accept the
[00:46:01.640] limitations of the instrument
[00:46:04.131] >> [snorts]
[00:46:04.320] >> and figure out how to push it in all
[00:46:06.440] sorts of ways. Another quote of his that
[00:46:07.880] I just love is this thing about
[00:46:10.240] um
[00:46:12.280] if it doesn't cry, weep, moan, I don't
[00:46:15.320] care.
[00:46:17.120] He wanted all of those noises.
[00:46:19.360] >> Mhm. And figuring out how to get those
[00:46:22.640] noises, figuring out how to make the
[00:46:24.000] guitar into more. This is a thing that
[00:46:25.840] obsesses people like Jeff Beck or Roy
[00:46:27.880] Buchanan or Eddie Van Halen
[00:46:31.000] where
[00:46:32.320] they're just
[00:46:34.320] they're in some other space where it's
[00:46:37.040] no longer an instrument the way you and
[00:46:39.320] I see it.
[00:46:41.920] You know,
[00:46:42.760] I I've never wanted a whammy bar on my
[00:46:44.800] instrument until I saw Jeff Beck
[00:46:47.680] do
[00:46:50.120] crazy stuff that just isn't possible.
[00:46:52.440] Did I ever tell you I drove him around
[00:46:53.640] once?
[00:46:53.880] >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. We had that car on
[00:46:55.120] air. Yeah. And that
[00:46:58.440] um
[00:47:00.600] You know, you've never had Derek Trucks
[00:47:02.120] on the program, have you? Tedeschi
[00:47:03.760] Trucks? Uh yeah. No.
[00:47:08.640] That guy is
[00:47:10.200] not a human.
[00:47:11.480] Oh, he's amazing.
[00:47:12.240] >> Amazing. And um And there's a bunch of
[00:47:15.080] different people singing songs.
[00:47:16.960] So, yeah, I Look, I care tremendously
[00:47:20.000] about the guitar and you know, the funny
[00:47:21.840] thing that I realized is that I stupidly
[00:47:24.080] mentioned guitars on JRE and I got sent
[00:47:27.720] amazing guitars and I had I had gave me
[00:47:30.560] sent a
[00:47:31.680] a Quad Cortex.
[00:47:33.320] Um
[00:47:34.400] I should have mentioned like
[00:47:35.320] Lamborghinis or like jewels or
[00:47:37.440] something.
[00:47:38.080] >> work. I've mentioned all those things.
[00:47:39.560] >> Okay. Um but I became friends with like
[00:47:42.480] the greatest guitarists of our time. And
[00:47:46.480] they're all suffering because nobody
[00:47:48.640] cares. And and I I heard, and I haven't
[00:47:50.760] seen it, that you had Marcus King
[00:47:53.440] on and talked about the death of rock.
[00:47:56.240] Well, I talked about the death of rock
[00:47:57.600] before and Marcus reached out and that's
[00:47:59.640] why I had him on. He was like, "Man,
[00:48:00.720] rock's not dead. We're doing it every
[00:48:01.960] [ __ ] night." And I was like, "All
[00:48:03.160] right, come on, man. Let's talk."
[00:48:05.480] And did you get to the blues which he
[00:48:06.880] excels at?
[00:48:08.280] Well, we mostly just we're talking about
[00:48:10.920] just music in general and his life and
[00:48:12.880] he's in it very What did he give you a
[00:48:13.920] nice guitar? Yeah, it's beautiful,
[00:48:15.600] right? He's a cool [ __ ] He's a
[00:48:17.240] cool guy. And he's super talented, too.
[00:48:19.280] Never met him.
[00:48:20.360] Well, it's like these these
[00:48:23.040] This is what my my conversation was
[00:48:25.400] about. Like this is what's what prompted
[00:48:27.400] it, rather. Is it when I was a kid, rock
[00:48:30.200] and roll music was the big popular
[00:48:32.800] music.
[00:48:33.320] >> 100%. It was all Rolling Stones, AC/DC,
[00:48:39.160] these bands were huge. Zeppelin, they
[00:48:41.240] were [ __ ] huge. They were the biggest
[00:48:43.480] bands.
[00:48:44.640] That's not the case anymore.
[00:48:45.960] >> That's right. And that's weird. And I
[00:48:48.200] what I said is I don't understand how a
[00:48:50.760] a a music
[00:48:52.520] genre that's so popular can stop being
[00:48:55.280] popular when it's still so good. Like
[00:48:57.600] when we have Protect Our Parks and, you
[00:48:59.880] know, we'll play Free Bird, we still go
[00:49:02.200] nuts for that guitar solo. What happened
[00:49:05.000] to Free Bird?
[00:49:06.920] I'm pretty sure if you looked at
[00:49:08.080] Google's data, Free Bird was
[00:49:10.960] in
[00:49:12.200] it went away for a long time. Mhm. And
[00:49:14.800] then it got resurrected as a meme.
[00:49:17.960] Right? Because you you can feel, all
[00:49:20.360] right, this insanely long intro. Mhm.
[00:49:24.080] Just so luxurious, you can't believe
[00:49:25.720] anybody would put up with it anymore.
[00:49:27.280] >> Right.
[00:49:28.080] And then
[00:49:28.600] >> It's two different songs. Right. Lord
[00:49:30.920] knows I can't Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
[00:49:32.520] yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
[00:49:33.000] yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
[00:49:33.480] yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
[00:49:33.960] yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
[00:49:34.440] yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
[00:49:34.920] yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
[00:49:35.400] yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:49:35.680] >> Right? Fly high, Free Bird. Yeah. And
[00:49:38.200] then do do do do do do do.
[00:49:39.800] Suddenly, you're on fire. Yeah.
[00:49:42.480] Yeah. You know, it's just like you want
[00:49:43.320] to fly an American flag, you want to
[00:49:45.280] shoot lasers, whatever it is.
[00:49:47.880] That feeling
[00:49:49.800] I think went away.
[00:49:51.360] And I think that I think that Free Bird,
[00:49:53.440] if I'd love to see the day that it came
[00:49:55.400] back.
[00:49:56.920] And in part, it was probably Trump
[00:50:00.040] and Elon
[00:50:01.520] and this re
[00:50:02.960] We're in a masculinity crisis world
[00:50:04.840] over. And the masculinity crisis
[00:50:09.360] originally killed Free Bird and it
[00:50:11.000] brought it back. I think Free Bird was
[00:50:13.000] brought back by Protect Our Parks.
[00:50:15.920] Okay.
[00:50:17.320] You think so? I
[00:50:18.600] It's I mean, as Google Trends says, it's
[00:50:20.120] never really gone away.
[00:50:22.520] Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. What? What
[00:50:24.120] is There's a peak in 2010.
[00:50:26.680] There's a peak in around December 9th to
[00:50:28.760] 2010.
[00:50:29.360] >> Wait, wait, that's 20
[00:50:30.720] A peak in 2010? That's weird. Something
[00:50:34.040] could have happened. Could look it up.
[00:50:35.280] >> I wonder what it was. It probably was in
[00:50:37.280] a movie
[00:50:38.240] >> Yeah, it seems pretty steady. Well, the
[00:50:39.920] reason that I said that is that I would
[00:50:42.880] make this reference cuz
[00:50:44.840] you used to be able to refer
[00:50:46.800] to Free Bird it it was a meme. It's like
[00:50:48.760] everybody knew it. Yeah, people would
[00:50:50.440] yell out And then there was a period of
[00:50:51.720] time when no young person had any clue
[00:50:53.600] what I was talking about.
[00:50:55.600] And I I know Oh, that's interesting.
[00:50:57.880] Because they they still knew Stairway to
[00:50:59.280] Heaven. If you remember these like top
[00:51:00.960] 500 songs of all time. Yeah. And then it
[00:51:03.840] would always come down to the last two
[00:51:05.520] and it would always be Free Bird and
[00:51:06.960] Stairway to Heaven. Those would
[00:51:09.040] invariably. Right.
[00:51:11.840] Then suddenly nobody knew what Free Bird
[00:51:13.320] was and now everybody knows again. So I
[00:51:15.360] I I
[00:51:18.600] Yeah. I I I will be I will stand
[00:51:21.120] corrected, but there was a period of
[00:51:22.360] time when young people didn't know it.
[00:51:24.120] Well, is this Google Trends? Is that
[00:51:25.440] what that is, Jamie?
[00:51:26.120] >> Yeah. Yep. So it's just people looking
[00:51:27.760] up
[00:51:28.040] >> even go like that's probably when they
[00:51:29.280] put the video on YouTube for the first
[00:51:31.360] time or it became available on Apple for
[00:51:33.560] the first time to download and it wasn't
[00:51:35.120] only on App Store or something like
[00:51:36.360] that.
[00:51:36.720] >> back to the the blues aspect of it. It's
[00:51:39.360] blues based
[00:51:41.520] rock
[00:51:42.920] that feels like that thing that you and
[00:51:44.600] I relate to.
[00:51:45.360] >> Mhm. And This episode is brought to you
[00:51:48.760] by Manscaped. Wondering what to get your
[00:51:51.680] dad on Father's Day?
[00:51:54.120] The beard and dome bundle from Manscaped
[00:51:56.760] is a really solid option. I've been
[00:51:58.360] using their dome shaver for a while now,
[00:52:00.240] and the thing I like about it is how
[00:52:01.920] easy it makes everything. You don't have
[00:52:03.840] to think about it. It just glides over
[00:52:05.440] your head, gets everything clean, no
[00:52:07.520] weird patches, no going over the same
[00:52:10.200] spot 10 times. Honestly, it's so much
[00:52:12.840] better than any of the other brands I've
[00:52:14.840] tried. And then there's the beard
[00:52:16.400] hedger. It's got this zoom wheel with 20
[00:52:19.040] different length settings that's built
[00:52:20.920] right in. So, if you want to get your
[00:52:22.800] dad something he'll actually use, the
[00:52:25.200] beard and dome bundle from Manscaped is
[00:52:27.800] an easy pick. Get 15% off plus free
[00:52:31.040] shipping with the code Rogan15 at
[00:52:33.480] manscaped.com. That's 15% off plus free
[00:52:37.240] shipping with code Rogan15 at
[00:52:40.040] manscaped.com.
[00:52:41.840] You know, we're not
[00:52:43.120] most I'm really into the blues, but
[00:52:45.600] that's a it's its own controversy
[00:52:47.960] because when black audiences stop
[00:52:49.800] showing up to blues shows,
[00:52:52.040] the performers got worse because the the
[00:52:53.960] audience was a huge part of the
[00:52:57.000] experience.
[00:52:59.080] I I tell you about this argument I got
[00:53:00.480] into with John Mayer about the blues.
[00:53:02.280] No.
[00:53:04.080] So, I I ran into John Mayer
[00:53:06.440] um
[00:53:08.440] where was it? Saint Vincent de Paul's
[00:53:10.280] and
[00:53:11.600] I've been in awe of that guy
[00:53:13.360] intellectually. When he talks about
[00:53:15.760] music, I get so much out of it. He's
[00:53:17.840] just very perceptive, very brilliant
[00:53:19.720] guy.
[00:53:21.440] And so, I was you know, really excited
[00:53:23.120] to meet him. And we get into this
[00:53:24.640] discussion.
[00:53:25.920] And I said, "You're like a huge Stevie
[00:53:27.480] Ray Vaughan fan." And
[00:53:30.200] I said, "I I I really don't get it. I
[00:53:32.200] like him. I think he's a great player,
[00:53:34.200] but I don't understand the focus." And
[00:53:36.120] he said, "Oh, I can explain that." He
[00:53:37.440] says, "I came from the MTV generation.
[00:53:40.080] And he was the blues packaged for us.
[00:53:43.280] Like a genius guy for sure, but packaged
[00:53:46.280] for MTV.
[00:53:47.200] >> Mhm.
[00:53:48.800] He said, "But, you know, blues isn't
[00:53:50.640] really
[00:53:51.800] um
[00:53:54.520] blues isn't a is isn't a real musical
[00:53:57.080] format, it's an ingredient." I said,
[00:53:59.360] "What are you talking about?" He said,
[00:54:01.200] "Well, you would never go to a blues
[00:54:02.920] show."
[00:54:04.760] I said, "I can't believe I'm saying this
[00:54:05.960] to John Mayer,
[00:54:07.680] but I don't think you know what you're
[00:54:08.640] talking about."
[00:54:10.440] House of Blues.
[00:54:12.112] >> [laughter]
[00:54:12.280] >> It's literally
[00:54:14.200] Well, he meant something. So, the the
[00:54:16.080] thing is is that I caught the end of
[00:54:18.280] black audiences
[00:54:20.400] like old black people
[00:54:22.360] listening to the blues and paying for
[00:54:24.280] it. So, there's who pays and who plays.
[00:54:26.120] And I'm black people are still paying
[00:54:28.680] for blues, but a lot of them aren't uh
[00:54:30.640] sorry, are still playing blues, but a
[00:54:32.040] lot of them aren't paying for it. So,
[00:54:34.320] when I go, for example, to uh see
[00:54:36.320] Cadillac Zach's Maui Sugar Mill show
[00:54:38.640] every Monday night, I go occasionally in
[00:54:42.120] in Tarzana, it's like
[00:54:45.440] 70-year-old
[00:54:47.120] and up white people. So, you see like
[00:54:49.920] hot chicks in their 80s in crop tops
[00:54:51.800] dancing. And
[00:54:54.640] that's what it is now. It's like a
[00:54:56.240] really old crowd keeping this thing
[00:54:58.640] alive. And I can't understand it because
[00:55:00.320] it feels great, Joe. Right. And
[00:55:03.840] um
[00:55:05.280] and that's the thing. It's just like,
[00:55:06.840] you know, Bonamassa, he does these
[00:55:09.040] cruises keeping the blues alive. And my
[00:55:11.720] feeling is like, "F that."
[00:55:13.720] We we've got to actually get
[00:55:17.280] people back into understanding what it
[00:55:19.680] is. So, if you picture those huge bands
[00:55:21.840] in your youth,
[00:55:23.360] stop thinking about the the band on
[00:55:26.480] stage rocking out, and pan in your mind
[00:55:29.320] into the audience. And what do you see?
[00:55:32.320] Young people. Young people.
[00:55:35.840] What are they doing? Dancing, having
[00:55:37.720] fun.
[00:55:38.080] >> They're dancing.
[00:55:39.520] There's some There's some chick in a
[00:55:41.120] crop top on some guy's shoulders
[00:55:43.760] rocking out.
[00:55:45.040] Free bird. When
[00:55:46.800] when hot chicks stop dancing to your
[00:55:49.040] music, it starts to enter its death
[00:55:50.760] throes.
[00:55:51.280] >> Damn.
[00:55:51.800] >> And that's true with jazz.
[00:55:54.320] It's true with traditional R&B.
[00:55:57.560] And it's true with the blues, it's true
[00:55:59.160] with rock. And so the important thing I
[00:56:01.560] I keep telling people is that you have
[00:56:04.000] to get people dancing. Once you start
[00:56:06.240] becoming intellectual, like Allan
[00:56:07.760] Holdsworth, nobody's dancing to Allan
[00:56:09.120] Holdsworth. Maybe you are.
[00:56:11.978] >> [laughter]
[00:56:12.600] >> That's not my [ __ ]
[00:56:14.040] You have no idea.
[00:56:14.880] >> to it, Jeremy? What do you think?
[00:56:17.120] Dude. I'm going to honestly tell you
[00:56:18.400] guys you sound old as [ __ ] right now.
[00:56:20.494] >> [laughter]
[00:56:20.680] >> There's so much music and rock music and
[00:56:23.160] arenas right now that's selling out.
[00:56:24.760] What is rock in in arenas right now?
[00:56:26.560] >> like there's a bunch of bands I could
[00:56:27.840] say like Bad Omens, Beartooth, Korn just
[00:56:30.840] posted a video in front of like São
[00:56:32.560] Paulo, Brazil, 50,000 people going
[00:56:34.120] crazy.
[00:56:35.280] Yeah, like Meshuggah. I I It's out
[00:56:37.840] there. Yeah.
[00:56:38.680] >> But it's not what you got You guys don't
[00:56:40.320] like it either, you know.
[00:56:41.320] >> Yeah, but [snorts] it's not it is it's
[00:56:42.640] not the big popular music that it was
[00:56:44.920] when I was a kid.
[00:56:45.760] >> There's only five artists in the world
[00:56:48.040] that are popular like all over the place
[00:56:50.160] right now.
[00:56:50.600] >> Because it's cuz it's now micro. Right.
[00:56:52.520] >> Right, cuz there's too many bands,
[00:56:53.600] there's too much music, too much
[00:56:54.600] content.
[00:56:55.680] >> the control of the institutions to tell
[00:56:57.960] us what we like Mhm.
[00:57:00.280] has has slipped.
[00:57:02.480] Right? And so in part, you know, like
[00:57:04.960] with our version of payola that
[00:57:08.040] um you know, when I was growing up in in
[00:57:10.920] LA, it was KMET and KLOS that determined
[00:57:14.080] or KROQ. Those are the three stations
[00:57:16.240] that mattered.
[00:57:17.680] And they told us, "Here's Here's the
[00:57:19.600] offering, boys.
[00:57:22.040] This is what's on tap."
[00:57:23.760] Right now, you know, are you into
[00:57:25.640] mathcore? Do you think that's it? It's
[00:57:28.120] the death of cuz wow, now that you're
[00:57:30.400] saying that, I'm thinking the death of
[00:57:32.280] radio and the death of rock and roll,
[00:57:34.400] Mhm.
[00:57:35.000] they sync.
[00:57:37.920] Because radio really stopped being a
[00:57:40.160] thing
[00:57:43.024] >> [sighs]
[00:57:44.280] >> early 2000s?
[00:57:46.240] Early 2000s, radio stopped being a
[00:57:48.360] thing.
[00:57:48.800] >> Well, remember when LimeWire came
[00:57:50.360] through and everybody could get all the
[00:57:51.880] songs that they wanted.
[00:57:53.640] >> That was an issue. But it it felt like
[00:57:55.920] if anything, I thought at the beginning
[00:57:57.720] when like Metallica was railing and Lars
[00:58:00.160] Lars Ulrich was railing against Napster.
[00:58:02.120] I'm like, these are just your fans.
[00:58:03.800] They're just your fans that are getting
[00:58:04.960] your music for free. Yep.
[00:58:06.400] >> You're going to have to adapt, but they
[00:58:07.920] still love you and you you know, don't
[00:58:10.040] you make most of your money touring or I
[00:58:11.640] don't know. I don't know what the
[00:58:13.000] economics of it are, but they're going
[00:58:14.160] to change. This is a new thing.
[00:58:15.680] >> micro markets,
[00:58:17.400] you know,
[00:58:18.640] just just in prog metal, there's so many
[00:58:21.000] different flavors.
[00:58:22.680] >> I understand, but but
[00:58:25.040] what we're getting at is that the radio
[00:58:28.040] sort of dictated what became popular.
[00:58:30.600] Yeah.
[00:58:31.440] Now video games
[00:58:32.760] >> popular in more of a sense of a viral
[00:58:35.640] way. Sure. Well, one thing is that these
[00:58:38.080] clips, if your clip gets picked up by
[00:58:40.480] TikTok and Instagram Reels,
[00:58:43.560] that's, you know, some tiny fraction of
[00:58:45.800] of a song is the
[00:58:48.000] catnip that leads everyone to your door.
[00:58:49.880] >> 100%. I've
[00:58:51.440] downloaded many, many songs that way.
[00:58:53.520] But I I I was hanging with Misha Mansoor
[00:58:56.200] who was making the Jamie claim like you
[00:58:57.920] you got old grandpa.
[00:58:59.440] And his point
[00:59:00.315] >> [laughter]
[00:59:00.560] >> Yeah.
[00:59:02.800] The thing is I I have at least the
[00:59:04.080] courage to hang out with actually cool
[00:59:05.640] people.
[00:59:06.840] He said, you know, his point was you
[00:59:08.840] you're just not even watching it
[00:59:10.120] correctly. And I said, "What do you
[00:59:11.080] mean, Misha?" He said,
[00:59:12.720] "Video games.
[00:59:14.320] Video game the music in video games
[00:59:16.560] matters much more than you imagine." And
[00:59:19.280] I it's like totally right. Mhm. That
[00:59:21.280] makes sense. And so, you know,
[00:59:23.920] what we are thinking about in get off
[00:59:26.400] get off my lawn mode Right. is there was
[00:59:30.360] something lost and it hasn't been reborn
[00:59:32.800] anywhere. So, that's the part that young
[00:59:34.520] Jamie is not getting correct.
[00:59:37.240] Something was just lost.
[00:59:39.320] Now, lots of new stuff sprouted up.
[00:59:42.040] But like EDM and DJing is really where a
[00:59:45.320] lot of that dancing hot chick energy
[00:59:48.320] went.
[00:59:49.280] Mhm. That makes sense. Yeah.
[00:59:52.560] Right? And then like if you've ever
[00:59:53.920] >> guys want to go where the dancing hot
[00:59:55.920] chicks are.
[00:59:57.800] They will follow anywhere. Right.
[00:59:59.600] >> Right? And and you know, that's the
[01:00:00.680] whole
[01:00:02.400] I was in uh What's this, Jamie? This is
[01:00:04.400] EDC Vegas [clears throat] 2026. This is
[01:00:06.480] just an example of what you're saying
[01:00:07.800] like Is this uh electronic? Yep. Yeah.
[01:00:10.640] This is like as big as it gets. If I
[01:00:11.880] look at the stage, look at all these
[01:00:13.320] lights. I wonder if Molly didn't exist,
[01:00:16.160] how much of this would be out there.
[01:00:18.200] I mean It's a good question, right?
[01:00:19.960] >> didn't exist, how much of that music
[01:00:21.240] wouldn't have gotten big, too. Oh, a
[01:00:23.040] lot. Yeah. But yeah, this is really what
[01:00:25.160] you're saying out. Right? And So, like I
[01:00:27.160] found myself in in Vegas Except for Ella
[01:00:29.640] Langley now is sort of antithesis
[01:00:32.680] antithesis to that, but
[01:00:34.280] >> What is? Ella Langley. What's that?
[01:00:36.520] She's a biggest country artist in almost
[01:00:39.200] ever now.
[01:00:40.320] First female with like two top 100 songs
[01:00:43.360] ever. How am I so out of the loop? Um
[01:00:45.680] because
[01:00:46.360] >> What's the big song? Oh, I know that
[01:00:47.960] song. That song's great. She's got
[01:00:49.640] another one now and And has she been
[01:00:51.120] around for a long time?
[01:00:52.200] >> Nope. She's pretty new. She's like 24,
[01:00:54.280] 25.
[01:00:54.960] >> it. Murdering it.
[01:00:58.320] So, part of part of what's going on is
[01:01:00.440] there's no way to monitor.
[01:01:02.240] Like even if you have really current
[01:01:04.440] young people
[01:01:06.080] they're monitoring a subset
[01:01:08.600] of what's going on. Nobody Nobody's
[01:01:10.000] tracking the whole thing.
[01:01:11.440] Right. And well, why country though? Why
[01:01:13.560] is country exploding the way it's
[01:01:15.000] exploding?
[01:01:15.600] >> Well, because we're all in a meaning
[01:01:16.880] crisis. If you think about the way in
[01:01:18.600] which uh
[01:01:20.560] country music for example develop a
[01:01:22.760] story through uh tropes very, very
[01:01:26.240] quickly.
[01:01:28.480] Yeah. Right? And so, in part
[01:01:31.600] uh the idea is that story songs and a
[01:01:34.680] return
[01:01:36.560] you know, try that in a small town
[01:01:38.840] uh is transgressive.
[01:01:42.120] Try that in a small town is a
[01:01:44.067] >> [laughter]
[01:01:44.760] >> It's a really powerful message. Right.
[01:01:47.040] >> You don't have to say a lot. And we all
[01:01:49.120] want the cowboy but we all want
[01:01:51.920] the girl at the county fair, you know?
[01:01:54.600] Um we just don't know how to get back
[01:01:55.920] there.
[01:01:57.880] Right. We don't want a wholesome
[01:01:59.400] existence. You know?
[01:02:03.000] I got a
[01:02:04.160] barbecue stain on my white t-shirt.
[01:02:05.840] That's Tim McGraw, right? Like you know,
[01:02:08.320] you
[01:02:09.200] she's killing it in that that mini
[01:02:10.760] skirt, you know? Heart don't forget
[01:02:12.360] something like that. Beautiful story,
[01:02:14.760] very, very quickly told.
[01:02:17.360] Now, it's old now, but the point being
[01:02:20.680] um
[01:02:23.200] hip-hop
[01:02:24.480] and its storytelling and the return to
[01:02:26.000] spoken word and poetry and then the
[01:02:28.120] legacy of the talking blues
[01:02:31.440] had a had a great run, spread worldwide.
[01:02:35.040] You know, you talk about whites taking
[01:02:36.360] over. What do you mean whites? Like
[01:02:38.000] Tamils?
[01:02:39.920] And you know, in indigenous Peruvians
[01:02:42.600] have taken over hip-hop in in their
[01:02:44.760] local sectors.
[01:02:46.600] Uh so, hip-hop was just this great
[01:02:48.400] platform that once uh
[01:02:51.960] every local culture figured out some
[01:02:53.560] version of that.
[01:02:55.680] And I talk about um
[01:02:57.400] when I entered Bollywood, there was a
[01:02:58.960] song
[01:03:00.400] uh
[01:03:02.280] Amma Dekh Tera Munna Bigda Jaye, you
[01:03:04.240] know, Mama look, your your child is
[01:03:05.760] being ruined. And it has this like um
[01:03:10.000] Hey Mom, hey Dad, don't moan and groan.
[01:03:12.240] Why don't you learn to live with the
[01:03:13.240] times and please leave us alone. Mhm. Um
[01:03:16.040] and it goes
[01:03:16.640] >> generation's message.
[01:03:18.040] >> but it's like it's delivered in uh, you
[01:03:20.240] know, boogie woogie, reggae, rap, rock
[01:03:21.800] and roll, and bhangra, you know, and it
[01:03:23.920] it's like trying to It was the first
[01:03:25.920] lame attempt at rap that I saw in a
[01:03:27.960] Bollywood film.
[01:03:29.800] With Jackie Shroff. And
[01:03:32.240] they've all made it theirs. And so I was
[01:03:34.360] hanging out in India now with a DJ
[01:03:37.120] um, on his program, uh, untriggered.
[01:03:41.160] And
[01:03:43.880] it's changing the the developing world
[01:03:47.320] um, at a level that rock and roll
[01:03:49.280] changed us. It was a, you know, the
[01:03:50.520] music of liberation. John Mayer's point,
[01:03:52.160] of course, is that the guitar, the
[01:03:53.760] electric guitar, retains the stylistic
[01:03:55.600] characteristics
[01:03:57.240] of cars in the 1950s.
[01:04:00.440] And that thing was the twin experience
[01:04:03.320] of having a car and having a guitar was
[01:04:05.360] was personal expression and liberation
[01:04:07.600] for for American males in the '50s. Mhm.
[01:04:11.600] So,
[01:04:13.400] um,
[01:04:14.800] yeah, I I but I think a lot about our
[01:04:16.280] guitarist friends because they're
[01:04:17.800] suffering. The world's greatest
[01:04:19.360] guitarists are living today and nobody
[01:04:21.080] cares.
[01:04:23.440] They all follow each other. The funny
[01:04:24.800] thing is if you start following these
[01:04:26.360] people on Instagram, as I do,
[01:04:29.160] um, I look to see which of my friends
[01:04:30.920] are following the great guitarists.
[01:04:33.720] And
[01:04:35.360] it's other great guitarists. It's none
[01:04:37.360] of my normal friends.
[01:04:39.840] Like, how how many of my normal friends
[01:04:41.240] know who Tim Henson is, a great Texas
[01:04:43.120] guitarist? Uh,
[01:04:45.320] You I do. This man. You know him?
[01:04:47.680] >> Yeah. What kind of music? Pol- um, yeah,
[01:04:50.160] I can't even explain it. He He pretty
[01:04:52.280] much invented a genre that only he
[01:04:54.680] mastered and is can explain.
[01:04:56.960] >> It's like Tex-Mex
[01:04:59.800] melodic.
[01:05:02.000] If I had a glass and I broke it, if I
[01:05:04.000] took Tex-Mex and I broke it on the
[01:05:05.440] ground and I reassembled it from
[01:05:06.880] different things, it's completely
[01:05:08.560] angular and an idea will last It's like
[01:05:11.600] a psychedelic thing where it'll last for
[01:05:14.480] 5 seconds and then it'll be onto the
[01:05:15.920] next thing and it's just angular and
[01:05:18.040] fragmented and sewn together and
[01:05:19.800] beautiful and inspiring. Give me some,
[01:05:22.000] Jenny.
[01:05:22.240] >> Yeah, I know. I have to I have to play
[01:05:23.280] it for you cuz the drummer and bass
[01:05:25.000] player are also awesome, but
[01:05:28.200] pretty much revolves around the guitar.
[01:05:30.360] And you see the thing is that they're so
[01:05:31.520] tight with each other
[01:05:33.480] that um, you know, a better example even
[01:05:36.040] than this would be this thing that they
[01:05:37.240] released called Goat, which was the
[01:05:38.960] thing that put them on the map.
[01:05:41.120] Um,
[01:05:42.400] and
[01:05:44.960] That was great. It was right?
[01:05:46.640] >> Let me hear Goat. Also, Tim is just like
[01:05:48.600] the loveliest human being.
[01:05:50.360] >> as a young boy. Boy, I miss him before
[01:05:51.760] he got all the crazy neck tattoos.
[01:05:53.200] >> Oh.
[01:05:55.590] >> [music]
[01:06:00.520] >> Well, it's just [music] broken out. I
[01:06:02.320] don't know.
[01:06:05.080] That's not Tim, is it?
[01:06:06.640] They posted it.
[01:06:08.360] Says it's Tim.
[01:06:09.800] This is
[01:06:11.280] This is a different different human.
[01:06:13.440] Oh. Let's hear the song. Okay.
[01:06:16.800] I think that's someone posting a riff.
[01:06:18.600] That was their account.
[01:06:20.160] Yeah, I know, but maybe he just put it
[01:06:21.280] up there.
[01:06:24.320] By the way,
[01:06:25.320] you hear the Mexican influence? Yeah,
[01:06:27.520] definitely.
[01:06:28.160] >> So, like this is It's very unique. Very
[01:06:30.880] unique sound.
[01:06:31.440] >> This is who I hang with. I love these
[01:06:33.000] guys. This is this this matters to me.
[01:06:36.080] And this is new, right? And just the way
[01:06:38.440] this uh what
[01:06:40.280] like Antoine de Portray in that's taking
[01:06:42.560] over the world is basically you hear the
[01:06:44.120] Middle East.
[01:06:45.720] Um, but these guys are basically into
[01:06:48.080] microtones. If you take 24 beats, you
[01:06:50.600] can divide it by sixes, you can divide
[01:06:52.440] it by fours.
[01:06:54.160] Uh,
[01:06:55.280] so
[01:06:56.200] the mathematics of rhythm,
[01:06:58.480] um, you know, the stuff that like only
[01:07:00.160] Vinnie Colaiuta was able to do before
[01:07:02.440] people are sort of getting hip to things
[01:07:04.360] that were happening on oud are now
[01:07:06.240] happening on microtonal guitars. And
[01:07:08.600] what it is as I see it is this is like a
[01:07:10.600] this violent birth of people bored by
[01:07:13.800] standard Western forms. And I'm I'm for
[01:07:17.560] this.
[01:07:19.240] I'm not for all of the slop that you
[01:07:22.320] know, like young people are always into
[01:07:23.560] the coolest stuff. No, they're not.
[01:07:25.000] There are lame times, there are cool
[01:07:26.400] times.
[01:07:27.640] There's really cool stuff happening now,
[01:07:29.560] but it's it's
[01:07:33.160] it's the fact and particularly this
[01:07:34.800] Quebec kind of thing that that broke out
[01:07:37.160] with these guys in costume.
[01:07:39.280] Um
[01:07:40.720] Huh?
[01:07:42.480] You don't know this? Antoine de
[01:07:43.960] Portrait, something like that.
[01:07:46.920] There's something
[01:07:47.560] >> Quebec costumes? What are you doing?
[01:07:49.320] Look, you remember the Residents who
[01:07:50.800] were this art group from San Francisco?
[01:07:52.560] Nobody knew who they were. They would
[01:07:53.960] have giant eyeballs as heads and they
[01:07:56.440] would play completely insane things like
[01:07:59.120] Johnny Cash's Ring of Fire, but in
[01:08:01.720] angular bizarre ways. I missed that,
[01:08:03.600] too. Okay.
[01:08:05.080] Did you miss it? I don't know where
[01:08:06.160] we're going. So, Antoine de Portrait is
[01:08:08.960] is this thing
[01:08:10.720] that took over which doesn't sound like
[01:08:13.400] anything. It's like that new thing.
[01:08:16.799] So, you know, you you
[01:08:18.640] because
[01:08:24.932] >> [music]
[01:08:36.722] [music]
[01:08:38.839] >> So, look at that guitarist's fretboards.
[01:08:46.547] >> [laughter]
[01:08:50.200] >> Now,
[01:08:52.442] >> [laughter]
[01:08:52.560] >> the mathematics
[01:08:53.839] >> Okay, Jamie.
[01:08:55.600] The mathematics of this is that there's
[01:08:57.560] this freak fact, which is that if you
[01:08:59.160] take the octave, which is a of
[01:09:00.720] frequency,
[01:09:02.520] um you take the 12th root of it, break
[01:09:04.839] it into 12 semitones, and then take 19
[01:09:07.040] of them stacked. 2 to the 19 over 12 is
[01:09:09.600] equal to 2.996 something. It's almost
[01:09:12.640] three.
[01:09:13.560] And that means that you can force people
[01:09:16.480] into this quantized music where you come
[01:09:18.680] up with this num- number 12 which is
[01:09:20.440] magical
[01:09:21.720] for number theory reasons.
[01:09:23.720] And you can fool the ear into thinking
[01:09:26.120] that 19 of these 12
[01:09:28.799] semitones is a a a complete tripling of
[01:09:31.759] frequency.
[01:09:33.440] And because of that, we've been in even
[01:09:35.520] tempered music since the time of Bach.
[01:09:37.600] And these guys are breaking us out
[01:09:39.080] together with Jacob Collier.
[01:09:41.160] They're saying,
[01:09:42.440] "Why would you accept that as a prison?"
[01:09:44.880] And so, how does stuff like this become
[01:09:46.920] popular? Is it just viral? Yeah. Yeah.
[01:09:50.440] Because suddenly you see two guys in
[01:09:52.160] costumes that don't look anything like
[01:09:54.000] anything
[01:09:55.080] you know, making music.
[01:09:57.720] It There's a moment where it switches
[01:09:59.760] into six beats
[01:10:01.920] per unit into four beats per unit
[01:10:04.120] because it's on a 24 cycle.
[01:10:06.800] And suddenly you just feel good. And
[01:10:08.760] also, if any of these guys get cocky,
[01:10:10.440] you could just swap them out.
[01:10:14.720] Put a mask on some new guy, and get him
[01:10:16.880] in there.
[01:10:17.400] >> No, but it's it's anti-egoic. It's
[01:10:19.400] anti-egoic. Right. Right? So, in part,
[01:10:22.280] you know, it's like Buckethead.
[01:10:24.000] Buckethead didn't want to be
[01:10:26.280] Like you have trouble being Joe Rogan. I
[01:10:27.840] even have trouble being Eric Weinstein.
[01:10:29.480] I'm afraid of a Joe Rogan. It's hard to
[01:10:31.800] be well-known.
[01:10:33.400] And these guys are erasing themselves.
[01:10:35.440] And that idea of, you know, um
[01:10:38.640] it's very funny. Tim Henson, I think,
[01:10:39.960] has a song called Ego Death with uh
[01:10:41.920] Steve Vai.
[01:10:43.640] Um
[01:10:44.680] Ego Death is really hot because people
[01:10:46.800] erasing themselves is what everybody
[01:10:49.280] isn't trying to do
[01:10:51.400] uh who's chasing clout.
[01:10:53.760] Right.
[01:10:54.280] >> So, And people like that. Yeah, because
[01:10:57.240] it's a form or
[01:10:59.400] they don't just like that. They also
[01:11:00.840] don't mind if you're chasing clout and
[01:11:03.200] you say
[01:11:04.400] I'm chasing some clout.
[01:11:07.480] Right. I'm trying to get that bag. So,
[01:11:10.040] what they don't want is somebody saying
[01:11:12.120] like Bill Gates
[01:11:13.920] Right. I'm just looking out for humanity
[01:11:16.640] and global health.
[01:11:18.840] So, um what I'm doing I'm engineering
[01:11:20.760] ticks so that they bite you and you get
[01:11:23.120] allergic to red meat and I'm dropping
[01:11:24.920] them off from helicopters.
[01:11:27.200] We're going to administer vaccines
[01:11:29.680] involuntarily through ticks. Yeah, and
[01:11:32.320] mosquitoes. Yeah. So, all of this stuff
[01:11:35.600] really bothers people. It's the
[01:11:37.160] disingenuous Well, it's the disingenuous
[01:11:39.040] >> he doesn't have any friends.
[01:11:41.200] You know, and he can't get any [ __ ]
[01:11:42.480] anymore cuz he keeps getting caught.
[01:11:43.960] >> He can get it.
[01:11:45.364] >> [laughter]
[01:11:47.720] >> But if we were smart, we'd feed that guy
[01:11:49.960] [ __ ]
[01:11:51.000] We did.
[01:11:51.640] >> happy.
[01:11:52.120] >> We did. We?
[01:11:54.200] I wasn't involved. Neither was I. Yeah,
[01:11:56.320] allegedly.
[01:11:57.680] What do you mean allegedly?
[01:11:59.400] I didn't go to that island. You didn't?
[01:12:01.880] No.
[01:12:03.040] No, you were one of the one of the
[01:12:04.000] people that saw through him right away.
[01:12:05.960] No, but he offered me partnership and I
[01:12:08.600] didn't take it. And I regretted that for
[01:12:10.720] a while.
[01:12:12.000] Cuz you would have been ching-ching.
[01:12:14.880] I would have been made rich or deceased.
[01:12:18.880] Probably both. Probably both.
[01:12:21.560] Yeah, I've a couple times I've been
[01:12:22.920] offered real wealth and with crazy
[01:12:25.960] stuff, but the Epstein thing
[01:12:28.600] I don't know that I've actually said
[01:12:29.640] that on a podcast. Um
[01:12:32.160] Yeah, he offered me partnership and the
[01:12:34.320] only condition was that I had to get rid
[01:12:36.240] of my existing partners.
[01:12:38.880] Like I had to stab my partners in the
[01:12:40.440] back in order to become his partner.
[01:12:42.240] >> Oh, yeah. So, he'd own you.
[01:12:45.480] Yeah.
[01:12:46.360] >> Yeah, it's like sh- show me that you're
[01:12:48.080] I don't want to sidetrack this, but I'll
[01:12:49.320] come back, but these two
[01:12:51.800] 333-year-old aliens, time travelers.
[01:12:54.760] >> Yeah. And so, [laughter] they cannot be
[01:12:56.440] easily replaced. Yes, they can. That's
[01:12:58.800] horse [ __ ] But, look, I'll make a
[01:13:00.680] prediction. If these guys haven't been
[01:13:02.480] unmasked
[01:13:03.360] >> even know you're going to unmask these
[01:13:04.800] guys and you're going to find out that
[01:13:05.840] they've got Middle Eastern hair.
[01:13:07.000] >> don't unmask them. They already unmasked
[01:13:08.600] Banksy. Yeah.
[01:13:10.000] >> Can't we have some [ __ ] mystery in
[01:13:11.560] this world, dammit? I think they're
[01:13:13.600] cool. I like that music. That was fun.
[01:13:15.920] That was fun.
[01:13:17.120] Um
[01:13:17.440] >> I like viral things, too. I like things
[01:13:19.400] that just spread just from weirdness,
[01:13:22.200] you know? Someone sends it to me. That's
[01:13:24.040] one one of the things that I love about
[01:13:25.160] Spotify. If I'm listening to something
[01:13:26.800] weird, it'll suggest something weird.
[01:13:28.840] You know, like that I've never heard of
[01:13:30.240] before, bands I've never heard of
[01:13:31.440] before. And then all of a sudden, I
[01:13:32.280] click on it, the suggestion thing.
[01:13:34.120] That's how I get new music now. Or I use
[01:13:37.120] um
[01:13:37.760] what's that [ __ ] app? Shazam. I use
[01:13:39.640] Shazam. If I'm at a, you know, pool hall
[01:13:41.520] or something, something cool comes on.
[01:13:42.760] I'm like, "Ooh, what is that?" See, I
[01:13:46.480] I do that, but then I can end up in
[01:13:47.720] these ruts.
[01:13:50.560] Like, for example, I really like songs
[01:13:52.120] that go between A minor and E major. And
[01:13:54.800] that is
[01:13:56.640] So, it just gives me more and more of
[01:13:58.080] it. Yeah, nerd. You're a music nerd.
[01:14:01.606] >> [snorts]
[01:14:01.720] >> Listen, that's your algorithm. There's
[01:14:03.440] nothing wrong with that.
[01:14:04.520] >> Okay. You're a mixed martial arts nerd.
[01:14:07.240] >> I am.
[01:14:07.760] >> I know. I'm also There's a lot of things
[01:14:09.880] that are way more boring than that,
[01:14:11.240] pool. I'm I watch professional pool
[01:14:13.600] probably three or four hours a day.
[01:14:16.400] Yeah? Yeah.
[01:14:18.200] That's how I escape.
[01:14:19.840] I escape in the geometry and the
[01:14:21.440] movements, the patterns. Dude, you
[01:14:24.080] should have seen the comedians in the
[01:14:25.480] physics department yesterday.
[01:14:26.840] >> Oh, that must have been I must have been
[01:14:28.840] amazing.
[01:14:29.840] >> Duncan
[01:14:30.320] >> Duncan and Kurt together. First of all,
[01:14:32.560] together, they are the [ __ ] dynamic
[01:14:34.400] duo. They are such a good duo cuz
[01:14:36.880] they're both sarcastic and they're
[01:14:39.040] they're both like heavily engaged in
[01:14:41.200] satire.
[01:14:41.920] >> as far as they could. Yeah. But, then um
[01:14:47.080] I don't know whether I can tell these
[01:14:48.200] stories or not.
[01:14:48.760] >> Tell these stories. Tell them. What
[01:14:50.400] happened? What Kurt do?
[01:14:52.040] So, [laughter] part of the
[01:14:54.760] [ __ ] I love that guy. He's so awesome.
[01:14:57.440] So, I I love that he's a real person.
[01:14:59.800] Whenever I he comes into the mothership
[01:15:01.760] green room, I'm like, "Yes."
[01:15:03.920] Give me a dose.
[01:15:04.760] >> real. He he gave me some wild
[01:15:06.440] anti-Israel stuff, I think. I couldn't
[01:15:08.680] tell whether it was pro or anti.
[01:15:10.960] Um he So, at the end, there was an
[01:15:13.800] experimentalist who was like, "Come to
[01:15:16.160] my Come to my parlor.
[01:15:18.440] I'll show you my etchings." No, no, no,
[01:15:20.320] cryogenic giant vacuum tubes from hell
[01:15:23.240] or whatever.
[01:15:24.640] So, we all went down there. And so,
[01:15:26.160] we're in the basement of the physics
[01:15:27.280] department. You can tell the difference
[01:15:28.480] between the theory floor and the like
[01:15:30.720] the part where they actually do things.
[01:15:33.360] And these guys were just, you know, were
[01:15:35.200] effectively at 77° before abs- above
[01:15:38.480] absolute zero with uh conditions that
[01:15:41.600] only occur in deep space inside of this
[01:15:43.880] thing coated in like tin foil.
[01:15:47.200] And so, these guys are just cracking
[01:15:48.600] jokes about growing weed and and uh
[01:15:50.992] >> [laughter]
[01:15:52.080] >> What happens if you put hydroponic weed
[01:15:53.760] in the chamber?
[01:15:55.800] But, the other thing is is that
[01:15:57.400] comedians [snorts] are really
[01:16:00.200] they're really intellectual nerds and a
[01:16:03.240] lot of them, not all of them. Those two
[01:16:05.200] guys are. Yeah, for sure. For sure.
[01:16:06.600] Yeah. And they really wanted to know,
[01:16:09.040] "Okay, what is it that you guys are
[01:16:10.440] doing down here and how do I
[01:16:11.920] understand?"
[01:16:13.440] >> But, Duncan's Duncan's amazing.
[01:16:14.600] >> Very curious.
[01:16:15.120] >> Although, he he drew a completely
[01:16:16.560] pornographic
[01:16:17.847] >> [laughter]
[01:16:17.960] >> He's taking notes. Yeah.
[01:16:19.920] We send it to Jamie cuz Kurt sent it to
[01:16:22.280] me. This is the notes Duncan was taking
[01:16:23.960] during Physics text.
[01:16:25.052] >> [laughter]
[01:16:25.880] >> Cuz I'm like doing battle
[01:16:27.920] a little bit with the There's one
[01:16:29.480] extremely smart string theorist in the
[01:16:31.640] audience named Jacques Distler.
[01:16:33.680] And so,
[01:16:34.680] almost all of the interactions between
[01:16:36.320] Jacques and myself were
[01:16:38.240] we were both being very
[01:16:40.000] collegial, but it was, you know, it was
[01:16:41.440] pretty pretty hot. I sent it to you,
[01:16:43.600] Jamie. And uh it's a he says, "While you
[01:16:46.400] were doing that, I did a little sketch
[01:16:48.160] of you.
[01:16:49.320] I can figure out [clears throat] your
[01:16:50.120] exact anatomy.
[01:16:51.908] >> [laughter]
[01:16:52.080] >> It's a gift."
[01:16:56.280] Well, you need something like that.
[01:16:57.920] >> That's the last talk he's ever coming
[01:16:59.640] to. No, he'll come back to every one of
[01:17:01.920] them. No, actually, I was really trying
[01:17:03.200] to hook So, he's taking notes.
[01:17:05.960] Oh, no, please.
[01:17:07.000] >> volume. Joe.
[01:17:10.248] >> [laughter]
[01:17:12.240] >> Thank you, Joe.
[01:17:13.523] >> [snorts]
[01:17:18.920] >> Hey guys, I got some other things to do
[01:17:20.320] this afternoon. It's been great.
[01:17:22.680] OKAY. BYE.
[01:17:24.658] >> [laughter]
[01:17:31.920] >> OH MY GOD.
[01:17:34.600] SO.
[01:17:35.160] >> OH, JESUS. But yeah, I wanted
[01:17:39.400] You know, CP
[01:17:40.560] did this famous essay called The Two
[01:17:42.480] Cultures.
[01:17:43.800] And it was about how
[01:17:46.760] um literary intellectuals and scientific
[01:17:49.080] intellectuals used to be one group, and
[01:17:50.600] then they they moved apart, and so now
[01:17:52.160] we can't hear each other across the
[01:17:53.400] chasm.
[01:17:56.040] I
[01:17:56.880] I really wanted to create a pipeline
[01:18:00.080] of not the seven scientists we see on
[01:18:02.800] all of the talks on the podcasts, but
[01:18:05.720] like
[01:18:07.440] choose who you want to talk to. Who's
[01:18:08.760] doing cool [ __ ]
[01:18:11.280] The comedians belong in our science
[01:18:12.920] departments.
[01:18:16.280] Otherwise, how are people going to know
[01:18:17.840] what's going on? There's there's funny
[01:18:19.480] [ __ ] happening.
[01:18:22.160] Well,
[01:18:23.520] And by the way, the UFO thing that's now
[01:18:25.360] blowing up.
[01:18:26.200] >> Mhm.
[01:18:28.194] >> [snorts]
[01:18:28.520] >> There's going to be some crazy science
[01:18:30.360] collision with the UFO narrative.
[01:18:32.120] There's no way of stopping it at this
[01:18:33.640] point. So, you've turned a corner on
[01:18:36.120] this. Let's talk about that, because uh
[01:18:38.440] I saw you on Jesse Michel's show, and
[01:18:40.960] you were talking about how just a few
[01:18:43.080] years ago you thought that the entire
[01:18:44.640] narrative was complete nonsense.
[01:18:46.440] Probably 5 6 years ago by now. And what
[01:18:48.640] changed?
[01:18:50.480] Um
[01:18:57.000] there was no way to explain
[01:18:59.880] So Jesse was going on and on about I
[01:19:01.280] said, "Jesse, you're a smart guy." And
[01:19:05.200] you you know, I had I often would call
[01:19:06.760] him the the back alley scholar. So he
[01:19:08.960] knew a lot of stuff um
[01:19:12.360] that was sort of forbidden knowledge.
[01:19:14.160] And
[01:19:16.720] he wouldn't be quiet about it.
[01:19:19.640] So I said, "Okay, I'm going to disabuse
[01:19:21.240] you of the idea that you're actually
[01:19:22.720] into something." And I realized very
[01:19:24.560] quickly
[01:19:25.680] at a minimum there is a massive
[01:19:28.880] denied program. Like usually called a
[01:19:32.000] special access program. Mhm. One or
[01:19:34.360] more.
[01:19:36.440] There's no way to synchronize that
[01:19:37.680] number of people who've had experiences
[01:19:39.720] that are so similar.
[01:19:42.280] And there's a lot of stuff that I
[01:19:43.000] couldn't make sense of. And what
[01:19:44.760] attracted me in a certain sense
[01:19:47.040] um
[01:19:48.600] was I couldn't come up with any
[01:19:49.920] explanation. So rare.
[01:19:52.080] I usually have exactly the opposite
[01:19:53.400] problem, which is I come up with too
[01:19:55.040] many explanations.
[01:19:57.360] I can't come up with a single
[01:19:58.760] explanation that makes sense of what I
[01:20:00.080] now know. And also the fact that the
[01:20:01.720] government outreach to me and to Sam
[01:20:03.680] Harris and to Lex Friedman.
[01:20:06.200] And you know, there was this thing where
[01:20:07.840] these guys who checked out
[01:20:09.960] um said, "There's going to be a massive
[01:20:11.600] disclosure, and we need people to
[01:20:13.440] disseminate these things to the public,
[01:20:16.040] and you have a share of the of the
[01:20:18.120] public who listens to you.
[01:20:20.640] And we need to get you informed so that
[01:20:22.600] you can help mediate the disclosure." So
[01:20:25.160] what prompted this change in narrative?
[01:20:29.800] What's going on between the Yeah. the
[01:20:31.480] government?
[01:20:32.080] >> Yeah. We don't know. We don't know Look,
[01:20:34.640] we don't know what the thing or things
[01:20:38.080] is are
[01:20:39.560] yet.
[01:20:40.760] Um some of it is so again so low quality
[01:20:43.760] that it's embarrassing to be seen with
[01:20:45.320] it. So my colleagues who don't want to
[01:20:47.080] take this seriously
[01:20:49.200] uh use that like okay, so you're you're
[01:20:51.360] you're you're you're now on the little
[01:20:52.800] green men train.
[01:20:55.080] And I said, "No, I'm on the special
[01:20:56.440] access program train. There is there's
[01:20:58.080] for sure special access program or
[01:21:00.120] programs
[01:21:01.800] that have UFO on the side of them that
[01:21:04.600] may or may not have aliens or craft or
[01:21:06.560] non-human intelligence in them. It may
[01:21:08.640] be that it's decoys. It may be I don't
[01:21:10.840] know what it is.
[01:21:11.960] There's no way to deny that there's like
[01:21:13.520] a giant lump under the carpet.
[01:21:16.960] And what what prompted you to change
[01:21:20.040] your opinion and and and decide that
[01:21:22.600] there is some sort of a special access
[01:21:24.120] program?
[01:21:26.080] When I started coming in contact with
[01:21:28.000] totally sober people from reasonable
[01:21:30.640] walks of life who would say the craziest
[01:21:32.520] things to me and a lot of them checked
[01:21:34.720] and they didn't yet know each other.
[01:21:36.400] Like what kind of crazy things? Um let
[01:21:39.040] me take somebody who's public. Brandon
[01:21:40.680] Fugal for example,
[01:21:43.360] uh
[01:21:44.480] was at a dinner
[01:21:46.280] where he started talking about being
[01:21:48.160] visited by a craft a few feet over the
[01:21:50.520] his head that came over the mesa
[01:21:53.440] and his head of security was catatonic
[01:21:55.800] standing in the back of a pickup truck
[01:21:58.200] unable to move.
[01:22:00.480] And
[01:22:02.120] it was just way too specific.
[01:22:05.560] And a shared experience that multiple
[01:22:07.520] people had had.
[01:22:09.440] Right? And so you know the the joke of
[01:22:11.160] course is that
[01:22:13.480] uh the secrets of Skinwalker Ranch or or
[01:22:16.520] you know whatever this
[01:22:17.200] >> Right. Um
[01:22:19.840] there's real stuff going on there and
[01:22:22.320] there's nonsense BS that the History
[01:22:25.760] Channel has packaged to come up with a
[01:22:27.680] salacious series and they're one is
[01:22:29.760] funding the other.
[01:22:31.480] So, I don't know what that is, but like
[01:22:33.360] the some of these injuries are real.
[01:22:35.960] And Injuries? Yeah, like Gary Nolan
[01:22:38.760] talking about
[01:22:40.400] people reporting
[01:22:42.360] you know, he Gary Nolan told me a story
[01:22:44.080] that somebody had said that a ball of
[01:22:46.480] energy
[01:22:48.200] would come and enter the body and
[01:22:51.400] move around and then leave.
[01:22:54.720] And he said, you know, the craziest
[01:22:56.080] thing is is that when I inspected the
[01:22:57.840] tissue
[01:23:00.360] there was a path of necrosis
[01:23:02.760] that can't be explained.
[01:23:04.840] Like something that shows up on imaging.
[01:23:08.840] And
[01:23:10.440] it's
[01:23:11.440] Gary's a really smart serious guy. I can
[01:23:14.240] check a lot of the things that he says
[01:23:16.040] scientifically. Why would he say
[01:23:17.320] something like that?
[01:23:19.520] I mean, I didn't see it myself, but
[01:23:22.800] Well, he's also done some very strange
[01:23:25.880] work on material science. Right. And
[01:23:28.280] where he's analyzed particles or little
[01:23:31.240] little pieces of metal and alloys that
[01:23:33.720] have come from wreckage from the 1970s
[01:23:36.160] and 60s.
[01:23:37.080] >> Yeah, that I don't know the providence.
[01:23:38.640] Like he'll carry around a little
[01:23:40.600] thing and he'll show it to me and I'll
[01:23:41.760] say, you know, but you know, there's no
[01:23:42.840] combination
[01:23:44.600] of of
[01:23:46.160] of materials and alloys that that this
[01:23:47.920] matches that we know how to produce.
[01:23:49.960] And I say, okay, it doesn't mean
[01:23:51.800] anything to me. Again, it's just it's
[01:23:53.280] all I I have no At this point, I have no
[01:23:56.480] primary
[01:23:58.240] um contact
[01:24:00.680] with anything anomalous. I just have all
[01:24:02.920] sorts of secondary stuff. And by the
[01:24:04.320] way, the thing that you saw with the
[01:24:06.400] Jesse Michaels in American Alchemy
[01:24:08.840] um
[01:24:10.440] boy, did that get a response inside the
[01:24:12.480] government. That particular episode. How
[01:24:15.120] so?
[01:24:16.480] I had a lot of people who had stopped
[01:24:17.880] talking to me
[01:24:19.400] about UFOs who suddenly
[01:24:22.520] you know, I had like eight calls
[01:24:23.640] immediately after it aired.
[01:24:26.200] "Hey Eric, just thought I'd catch up
[01:24:27.560] with you." And I was like, "Oh, okay."
[01:24:28.840] There was a huge discussion inside. Mhm.
[01:24:31.640] Um and the first
[01:24:33.480] uh
[01:24:34.240] without getting into particulars, the
[01:24:35.960] first official outreach.
[01:24:38.760] Like really official outreach. The
[01:24:40.640] checks.
[01:24:42.400] In the wake of that episode.
[01:24:44.440] And I'm not under any NDAs. Nobody's
[01:24:46.600] told me anything that I can't discuss.
[01:24:48.920] But that that may change.
[01:24:51.320] Um
[01:24:52.760] one thing that's very
[01:24:54.800] clear to me is that when I hear
[01:24:57.240] something from many sources, I I don't
[01:24:59.400] need to protect it anymore. It's already
[01:25:01.000] out. Okay?
[01:25:03.640] I have now heard the White Sands story
[01:25:05.520] from many sources.
[01:25:07.800] This is the one where the crafts
[01:25:10.880] hovered over the base, shut down the
[01:25:13.120] nuclear program. Is that it?
[01:25:17.560] I'm just going to say what I can say
[01:25:18.880] that's fuzzed out that can't be traced
[01:25:20.680] to anybody.
[01:25:21.360] >> Okay.
[01:25:22.880] Um
[01:25:24.680] I was very upset with the shutdown of
[01:25:27.320] the El Paso airspace.
[01:25:30.000] That was recently. Yeah, it was supposed
[01:25:32.000] to be supposed to be we had a problem
[01:25:33.360] with cartel drones. Right. I don't
[01:25:36.000] believe that.
[01:25:37.640] I think Texas is another name for New
[01:25:39.280] Mexico. I think El Paso is a name for
[01:25:41.200] White Sands.
[01:25:43.040] Can we get a map of the United States
[01:25:45.280] that can focus on
[01:25:46.960] White Sands and El Paso?
[01:25:49.680] I I think we have a problem that we've
[01:25:51.680] lost control of our airspace.
[01:25:55.760] You think this is part of what happened
[01:25:56.920] in New Jersey as well?
[01:25:59.494] >> [snorts]
[01:26:01.160] >> I can't say
[01:26:03.080] as much because what I know, no.
[01:26:07.120] What happened around New Jersey
[01:26:09.840] I don't have from as many sources that I
[01:26:11.960] feel comfortable saying that this is
[01:26:14.200] fuzzed out. I can fuzz out the El Paso
[01:26:17.040] story. Nobody has told me that El Paso
[01:26:19.040] was shut down because of the problem at
[01:26:20.760] White Sands. Okay.
[01:26:23.080] People have said things about New Jersey
[01:26:25.680] that is All right. All right.
[01:26:27.920] >> So, there's El Paso.
[01:26:29.240] >> here, White Sands right above it. How
[01:26:31.240] far away is that?
[01:26:32.560] >> my guess is about an hour.
[01:26:34.640] By driving?
[01:26:35.440] >> Yeah, let's see. It's probably 60, 70,
[01:26:37.920] 80 miles most. Okay.
[01:26:40.480] So, I don't know what's going on, but my
[01:26:43.480] my guess is
[01:26:48.120] So,
[01:26:49.120] on Piers Morgan, I said this thing, um
[01:26:51.600] which is that New Mexico
[01:26:53.880] is the connector of the nuclear story,
[01:26:55.920] the Epstein story, and the UFO story.
[01:26:58.600] They're all going to come together.
[01:27:08.680] Remember when we were only talking about
[01:27:10.400] the island? Mhm.
[01:27:15.080] I
[01:27:16.280] Somehow, I think I was the first person
[01:27:18.760] to seize on this. There's this thing
[01:27:21.000] that isn't an interview, which is Steve
[01:27:22.840] Bannon trying to train Jeffrey Epstein
[01:27:25.320] how to respond to rehabilitate it.
[01:27:29.080] And if you can find this, this is
[01:27:30.840] >> I've seen it. Okay. It's very weird.
[01:27:33.320] So, he says
[01:27:36.160] um
[01:27:38.760] You want to know about why I got Zorro
[01:27:41.280] Ranch in New Mexico. Can we play this
[01:27:43.920] clip? Can you find
[01:27:46.280] I think Jesse repackaged it after I
[01:27:48.400] pointed it out.
[01:27:54.040] But this is the story that like somehow
[01:27:56.800] that we we're so hung up about sex.
[01:28:00.240] We're either angry about trafficking or
[01:28:01.880] we're getting off on the idea that all
[01:28:03.360] these rich people, um
[01:28:05.760] are going to get their comeuppance or,
[01:28:07.160] you know, we keep turning the Epstein
[01:28:08.840] story into something other than a
[01:28:10.480] scientific espionage story, which is one
[01:28:13.160] of its one of its facets.
[01:28:15.600] It's one component.
[01:28:16.760] >> It's one component.
[01:28:17.520] >> Right. Yeah, but we but it doesn't
[01:28:19.320] excite us
[01:28:21.200] that this is a guy spying.
[01:28:23.680] Control of science, Joe,
[01:28:26.480] is not something that is officially a
[01:28:29.200] big issue. And it is a massive issue.
[01:28:32.600] It's not publicly a big issue.
[01:28:33.840] >> That's correct, yeah.
[01:28:34.640] >> And he clearly had a
[01:28:36.800] >> let's back up.
[01:28:37.600] >> big interest in So, why did I buy a
[01:28:39.320] ranch in New Mexico 1993? So, that's
[01:28:42.440] gives you some sense. So, I would have
[01:28:43.480] funded it in 1990.
[01:28:46.080] Uh
[01:28:47.360] Los Alamos,
[01:28:49.040] which was the high energy lab up in New
[01:28:51.720] Mexico, was losing all its scientists.
[01:28:54.840] And Los Alamos was where Oppenheimer and
[01:28:57.520] where the where the a lot of the the
[01:28:59.480] nuclear weapons program, the bomb was
[01:29:01.000] >> That's where the Manhattan Project
[01:29:02.240] >> Manhattan Project was Yes. at Los
[01:29:04.560] Alamos, and you bought your property out
[01:29:06.240] in New Mexico to be near that?
[01:29:07.480] >> Yes, because the scientists were going
[01:29:09.160] to be they cut the funding for high
[01:29:11.600] energy physics.
[01:29:13.480] But the people who worked in Los Alamos
[01:29:15.240] would still be in the Santa Fe area.
[01:29:17.240] They cut that because the end of the
[01:29:18.560] This was the Cold War dividend, right? I
[01:29:20.960] don't remember exactly why. It was
[01:29:22.840] because again, people thought there was
[01:29:24.800] that physics and high energy physics
[01:29:26.560] really wasn't that important. Because
[01:29:27.840] that was about nuclear weapons. No, it
[01:29:29.920] was because they were trying to they
[01:29:31.600] decided it was maybe not right. This was
[01:29:33.240] the same time that Murray Gell-Mann
[01:29:35.560] came up with the term quark, q u a r k.
[01:29:39.920] He he picked it out of a old poem, the
[01:29:42.680] word quark. But it was something it was
[01:29:44.200] mysterious.
[01:29:45.640] So, they were starting to understand in
[01:29:47.720] the '90s that the in the our world of
[01:29:50.360] the physical world, there was things
[01:29:52.360] that were just unexplainable.
[01:29:55.280] They called it strange things. You gave
[01:29:56.720] it a name. You gave it some
[01:29:58.000] characteristics.
[01:29:59.600] You called it it had charm was one of
[01:30:01.560] the terms. It had a charm. It had a
[01:30:02.800] flavor. It had a color.
[01:30:05.240] But nobody really No one,
[01:30:08.200] Mr. Bannon, understood what it was.
[01:30:11.640] Just like the financial system. And you
[01:30:14.080] wanted to investigate that. I I wanted
[01:30:16.560] to see if we could build tools so others
[01:30:19.400] smarter than me could help investigate
[01:30:21.120] it.
[01:30:21.320] >> And that was the beginning of your
[01:30:22.600] concept of the Santa Fe Institute.
[01:30:24.200] >> Yes. And Santa Fe Institute was founded
[01:30:26.440] to do study in this type of Can you Can
[01:30:30.560] these areas of strange things be
[01:30:33.920] described by some form of mathematics?
[01:30:37.840] Okay. Now,
[01:30:40.120] what you're seeing there
[01:30:42.120] is fascinating. Like, just take By the
[01:30:44.160] way, very well isolated, exactly the bit
[01:30:46.800] that I wanted.
[01:30:48.880] In that interview or that training, he
[01:30:51.000] claims to have founded the Santa Fe
[01:30:52.640] Institute.
[01:30:54.200] Santa Fe Institute was founded, I think,
[01:30:56.480] in 1984, not 1990 or 1993.
[01:31:00.440] Bannon clearly knows more about why
[01:31:04.000] these scientists were being defunded
[01:31:07.920] than does the person who buys this
[01:31:10.160] property. Now, that property is not only
[01:31:12.000] close to Los Alamos, it's also close to
[01:31:13.920] Sandia National Laboratory.
[01:31:18.680] What you Like, people said to me, "Eric,
[01:31:20.720] you said he was an idiot. He's clearly
[01:31:22.280] very knowledgeable.
[01:31:23.920] Um you can see there that you were
[01:31:26.440] wrong." I was like,
[01:31:28.120] that is an actor.
[01:31:29.960] That is not
[01:31:31.640] anyone smart with
[01:31:35.440] proximity to Murray Gell-Mann and
[01:31:37.520] others. Like, he he knew Murray
[01:31:39.120] Gell-Mann well. Murray Gell-Mann didn't
[01:31:41.560] name quarks in 1990.
[01:31:44.800] That goes back to like the '60s when
[01:31:46.760] George Zweig called them aces and
[01:31:48.840] Gell-Mann called them quarks for three
[01:31:50.640] quarks from muster mark that came out of
[01:31:52.280] James Joyce. So, he's he's just
[01:31:54.680] repeating stuff that he doesn't
[01:31:56.360] understand.
[01:31:58.320] And why did he buy the house or a ranch?
[01:32:01.000] To be close to the
[01:32:03.720] scientists whose funding was cut.
[01:32:06.600] The people who make weapons and who do
[01:32:08.600] high energy physics
[01:32:10.880] who had the rug pulled out from under
[01:32:12.640] them
[01:32:13.520] by the United States when they won the
[01:32:15.200] Cold War by putting this pressure on the
[01:32:17.000] Soviet Union.
[01:32:19.920] Like, there's no thing more important
[01:32:21.560] than theoretical physicists, you idiots.
[01:32:25.640] And And you don't fund these people and
[01:32:27.360] you don't watch them. Like, the
[01:32:28.520] Department of Energy is supposed to have
[01:32:30.520] counterintelligence
[01:32:32.720] to stop creeps
[01:32:34.560] from hanging around the national labs,
[01:32:36.600] which is America's secret university
[01:32:38.360] system. Hello.
[01:32:41.080] And
[01:32:45.240] that's what he was doing.
[01:32:48.400] He was buying a property to be close to
[01:32:51.160] the national labs in New Mexico that
[01:32:53.600] make the weapons and that are in charge
[01:32:56.000] of trying to figure out the future.
[01:32:58.240] So, if you think about the national labs
[01:32:59.640] is this parallel thing to the university
[01:33:02.440] system. But, it's the secret part where
[01:33:04.640] you have to be American and you have to
[01:33:06.040] have a security clearance and all this
[01:33:07.600] kind of stuff.
[01:33:09.600] Epstein set up a listening post.
[01:33:12.720] Now, what are What's the UFO story? The
[01:33:14.480] UFO story is all about nukes.
[01:33:18.560] And what was Epstein doing in Cambridge,
[01:33:20.240] Massachusetts? The analog of Zorro Ranch
[01:33:23.040] is named One Brattle Square.
[01:33:25.560] It's right in the heart of Harvard
[01:33:27.280] Square. You know, I know it like the
[01:33:29.120] back of my hand.
[01:33:31.040] It's a 7-minute walk to the Science
[01:33:33.400] Center.
[01:33:34.600] The Harvard Science Center
[01:33:37.120] on floors 3, 4, and 5 is where the math
[01:33:40.080] department is.
[01:33:41.560] And who was Epstein's initial contact in
[01:33:43.600] the math department?
[01:33:45.880] It wasn't Martin Nowak who he funded.
[01:33:49.080] It was a different guy named Benedict
[01:33:50.400] Gross.
[01:33:52.000] Dick Gross was an expert in number
[01:33:54.080] theory and in elliptic curves.
[01:33:57.120] And elliptic curves are what power the
[01:33:58.720] cryptography behind Bitcoin, behind
[01:34:02.400] public keys.
[01:34:06.440] You're talking about a guy
[01:34:08.240] who was setting up listening posts
[01:34:10.750] >> [snorts]
[01:34:11.160] >> next to extremely sensitive stuff that
[01:34:13.080] we've stupidly left unprotected in the
[01:34:15.320] open university system or defunded in
[01:34:18.120] our national lab.
[01:34:19.160] >> you say listening posts, like what do
[01:34:20.480] you mean?
[01:34:21.440] Bugs on the wall?
[01:34:22.560] >> no, no. No?
[01:34:24.160] He just remained in contact with these
[01:34:26.360] people?
[01:34:27.840] Joe, you've got real money.
[01:34:29.400] Guys with real money use dinner.
[01:34:32.600] Dinner is an incredible thing.
[01:34:35.000] I watched Peter Thiel use dinner.
[01:34:38.040] Fly people in for dinners.
[01:34:40.400] You put people up in a nice hotel for 3
[01:34:42.160] nights.
[01:34:43.720] Serve them amazing food from a private
[01:34:45.600] chef. You get a black car to collect
[01:34:47.240] them. They'll tell you anything.
[01:34:50.440] I don't think that mean that Peter was
[01:34:51.920] doing this in an evil way, but I watched
[01:34:54.640] dinner after dinner after dinner as
[01:34:56.200] people disgorged all they knew because
[01:34:59.000] they were so happy
[01:35:01.000] they're getting a $200 bottle of wine
[01:35:03.040] and being treated like humans.
[01:35:05.720] You know, like respected.
[01:35:08.800] So, in part, you have to understand that
[01:35:10.560] dinner in and of itself or a mansion
[01:35:14.760] or first-class ticket
[01:35:17.000] is all it takes to get people to start
[01:35:19.040] talking.
[01:35:21.520] Uh Jeffrey Epstein was CIA. The
[01:35:24.000] communications network at Zorro Ranch
[01:35:26.040] prove it. The DOJ's own files showed
[01:35:28.720] Epstein built a military-grade encrypted
[01:35:31.160] link to satellite orbit at Zorro Ranch.
[01:35:34.080] The contractor who built it now holds a
[01:35:35.920] Pentagon missile defense contract.
[01:35:41.080] So, remember
[01:35:42.920] Jeffrey Epstein is a construct. Uh-huh.
[01:35:45.680] You know, there's this whole question
[01:35:46.760] about it, like why won't Jews talk about
[01:35:48.480] Jeffrey Epstein and the sex [ __ ]
[01:35:50.960] It's like as if I haven't been on this
[01:35:52.480] since 2004.
[01:35:55.520] Yeah, no one can accuse you of not
[01:35:56.680] talking about it.
[01:35:58.520] If they can, they're just being
[01:35:59.520] ignorant. No, they're being a [ __ ]
[01:36:01.280] because it used to be super dangerous.
[01:36:05.720] This was [snorts] like one of the really
[01:36:06.800] costly things is to say
[01:36:08.480] >> that was though? This satellite
[01:36:12.280] encrypted
[01:36:14.360] All right, let's let's go there, but I'm
[01:36:16.160] a little bit nervous. Um
[01:36:19.680] Why was Jeffrey Epstein able to get all
[01:36:22.040] of these people much richer than him
[01:36:24.160] into his orbit?
[01:36:26.840] That's the question you should be
[01:36:28.000] asking.
[01:36:31.240] So here's my theory. Okay.
[01:36:36.440] I'll just be careful here.
[01:36:38.800] Okay.
[01:36:40.840] What happens when you become a
[01:36:42.000] billionaire? I don't know. Not there.
[01:36:44.920] Nowhere close.
[01:36:48.680] What happens is is that you find out
[01:36:50.320] that it's not what you thought it was.
[01:36:52.640] First of all, you now have staff
[01:36:54.920] everywhere.
[01:36:56.520] You can't move around easily because you
[01:36:58.120] need a security detail.
[01:37:00.840] Right?
[01:37:01.840] I first met Peter Thiel, I said, "Wow,
[01:37:03.560] your security detail on this beach is
[01:37:05.400] amazing. I can't even tell where they
[01:37:07.560] are." He says, "Am I supposed to have a
[01:37:08.840] security detail?" I'm like,
[01:37:10.560] "Peter, you've got to be kidding." Now
[01:37:12.040] he's got one.
[01:37:14.280] So the first thing is is that you find
[01:37:15.800] you you lose your privacy, you lose your
[01:37:17.760] freedom of movement, you've got a
[01:37:19.160] retinue of people who have to be
[01:37:20.680] constantly maintained, they're under
[01:37:22.160] your roof.
[01:37:23.600] And you're like, "This isn't what I
[01:37:24.440] signed up for. I wanted to be rich." And
[01:37:26.840] you're like, "Well, you are rich, you
[01:37:27.680] can buy things."
[01:37:29.360] Well, you can't buy privacy, you can't
[01:37:31.120] buy freedom, you can't buy anonymity,
[01:37:32.880] all these things that you want.
[01:37:34.920] And you can't buy the ability to do
[01:37:37.680] fun naughty stuff. I'm not talking about
[01:37:40.240] little kids. I'm saying like
[01:37:43.400] if you're going to take drugs, you're at
[01:37:44.800] risk of, you know, having everybody want
[01:37:46.520] to tell the story. If you want to have
[01:37:48.480] uh
[01:37:49.040] a menage, you're at the same risk. So,
[01:37:51.720] the question becomes
[01:37:53.800] what do I do to to get what I thought I
[01:37:56.160] was going to do, which is the right to
[01:37:57.840] have freedom over my own life and to
[01:37:59.880] misbehave in fun ways, whatever.
[01:38:03.920] Nobody can figure out how to do it.
[01:38:05.200] Jeffrey Epstein could do it. Now, why is
[01:38:07.720] it that he could do it?
[01:38:10.080] Well, who's spoken to the contractors
[01:38:12.120] who built his island?
[01:38:14.120] It's the most obvious thing to do. If I
[01:38:15.400] was an investigative journalist, that's
[01:38:16.880] what I'd do. I'd talk to like the
[01:38:18.960] plumbers, the maids,
[01:38:21.280] all of the people
[01:38:23.400] who are just working for a living.
[01:38:26.520] Those are the people who constantly leak
[01:38:28.160] information about their employers.
[01:38:32.440] Well, who's the only person who has a
[01:38:34.880] who has the ability to build something?
[01:38:38.720] The CIA has its own
[01:38:40.880] has its own construction company.
[01:38:45.880] Sovereigns, countries, nations have the
[01:38:48.760] ability to do stuff
[01:38:51.240] where
[01:38:53.360] they know how to keep things under
[01:38:54.560] wraps. If you think about S4,
[01:38:57.600] I guarantee you there's a men's room at
[01:38:59.160] S4.
[01:39:00.880] Well, who cleans it?
[01:39:03.000] That's a really important question.
[01:39:05.480] Because that's the weak link.
[01:39:07.600] And so, rich people haven't figured out
[01:39:09.520] how to be rich.
[01:39:13.400] That's what everybody was attracted to
[01:39:15.320] in that upper income bracket. That he
[01:39:17.520] would provide them with experiences. He
[01:39:19.280] would provide them with things that they
[01:39:21.360] couldn't figure out how anybody could
[01:39:23.440] provide.
[01:39:24.800] Because they were dealing with a state.
[01:39:30.120] I assure you that the Sultan of Brunei
[01:39:33.200] knows how to do stuff.
[01:39:35.280] Because he's both an individual
[01:39:37.440] and a state.
[01:39:41.280] Most of us
[01:39:43.560] are either in this sort of black ops
[01:39:45.800] world
[01:39:47.520] or
[01:39:48.800] we're dreaming about
[01:39:50.320] being very rich.
[01:39:53.319] >> [snorts]
[01:39:54.280] >> Or just norm normal human beings.
[01:39:57.040] The very rich are very disappointed.
[01:40:00.680] Epstein felt rich, as I said before, in
[01:40:03.160] a movie sense.
[01:40:05.040] He had freedom.
[01:40:07.360] He could say and do things that other
[01:40:09.120] people couldn't.
[01:40:12.960] You know, Elon
[01:40:15.800] is constantly tripping over the fact
[01:40:17.760] that
[01:40:19.080] I I think he's a wild guy.
[01:40:21.480] I'm up for wild guys. I want cowboy
[01:40:23.920] billionaires, cowboy physicists, cowboy
[01:40:26.680] everything.
[01:40:27.880] But in general, we don't want cowboys.
[01:40:30.680] And you know, again, this has nothing to
[01:40:32.520] do with little kids. That's a different
[01:40:34.240] thing. Right.
[01:40:36.000] But if you want to go take drugs, take
[01:40:37.840] drugs.
[01:40:40.000] If you want to have a menage, have a
[01:40:41.080] menage. Fine.
[01:40:43.240] I don't want to hear about it. I don't I
[01:40:45.160] don't spill the tea. I can't stand this
[01:40:47.200] culture.
[01:40:48.760] Epstein knew how to keep quiet stuff
[01:40:50.800] quiet. And why is that? His product, as
[01:40:52.640] I've said before, was silence.
[01:40:55.240] If you want a really dangerous question,
[01:40:56.880] ask the question
[01:40:58.800] um
[01:41:01.920] what did the people who were in his
[01:41:04.160] direct orbit have an unusually high
[01:41:06.120] number of disappearances
[01:41:09.880] around them? Did they? I don't know.
[01:41:13.120] But it's a dangerous question. I've
[01:41:14.160] never investigated it, but that's
[01:41:16.480] Have you ever seen Yeah, everybody talks
[01:41:17.960] about Eyes Wide Shut now. Mhm. You
[01:41:20.200] notice that nobody talks about Crimes
[01:41:21.680] and Misdemeanors?
[01:41:23.240] Where Woody Allen is directly in his
[01:41:25.000] orbit?
[01:41:27.360] God, I don't even know if I've seen that
[01:41:28.520] movie. There is a scene where Martin
[01:41:31.000] Landau
[01:41:32.640] and Jerry Orbach's characters are a pair
[01:41:34.800] of brothers. I think that they only meet
[01:41:36.720] on screen once.
[01:41:39.560] And Martin Landau is having an affair
[01:41:41.840] and the woman has decided that she has
[01:41:43.600] rights.
[01:41:45.360] And Martin Landau is a very wealthy
[01:41:47.920] ophthalmologist or something like that.
[01:41:50.520] And he has a brother who's a shiv
[01:41:52.360] shivarker.
[01:41:54.280] Shivarker is being the Yiddish word for
[01:41:55.760] a tough guy.
[01:41:58.160] And
[01:42:00.520] it's one of the most Can Can we find
[01:42:03.960] Jerry Orbach, Martin Landau, Crimes and
[01:42:05.800] Misdemeanors. It's the most
[01:42:06.800] blood-curdling
[01:42:08.520] so well done. What's the scene
[01:42:10.960] description though? You didn't really
[01:42:12.200] get to it.
[01:42:12.800] >> Well, they're only in one If they're
[01:42:14.440] only in one scene together, they'll be
[01:42:16.000] at a I haven't seen it in ages, but it
[01:42:18.800] My memory is that they're at a house
[01:42:21.280] walking around a pool and then they walk
[01:42:23.440] inside to the pool house.
[01:42:26.760] And there's a resentment that the
[01:42:28.480] brother who's in the life
[01:42:31.720] um
[01:42:34.480] is only called to the house
[01:42:35.840] occasionally.
[01:42:37.640] Right? And it's this way in which the
[01:42:39.200] gentile
[01:42:40.760] and the people who can get things done
[01:42:42.640] that you're not allowed to do in the
[01:42:44.040] within the law are connected. And so
[01:42:47.040] Woody Allen is clearly writing this from
[01:42:48.520] personal experience. He has some
[01:42:52.040] interaction between
[01:42:54.240] being in high society
[01:42:56.840] and knowing shivarkers.
[01:42:59.600] And I actually
[01:43:01.640] knew um his old Woody Allen's old
[01:43:04.520] producer who was the father of a friend
[01:43:06.160] of mine, so
[01:43:07.560] a guy named Jack Grossberg.
[01:43:09.720] And Jack Grossberg was a
[01:43:11.560] epitome of a tough Jew in Hollywood
[01:43:13.440] who'd deal with the Teamsters or when
[01:43:14.920] there was a labor dispute.
[01:43:17.040] And you know, he wasn't in the life, but
[01:43:19.880] he was a guy who could stare down a
[01:43:21.240] mafioso.
[01:43:23.040] Um
[01:43:24.320] I think that in part Woody Allen is
[01:43:26.000] writing about what Jeffrey Epstein was
[01:43:27.960] providing, which was a measure of
[01:43:29.560] silence. Is this a No, no, no.
[01:43:31.440] >> Oh, okay. Well, then I don't know.
[01:43:33.960] No, we're looking for Martin Landau
[01:43:36.640] and Jerry Orbach
[01:43:38.600] in Crimes and Misdemeanors.
[01:43:47.640] Yeah, I don't know. That's going to be
[01:43:48.400] hard to find cuz it's uh Yep, that one.
[01:43:50.720] >> Maybe right there.
[01:43:51.120] >> Yep. Okay.
[01:43:55.680] I think that this is the scene that
[01:43:57.120] nobody's talking about. I don't know,
[01:43:59.280] but she's killing me. But
[01:44:01.680] Want me to have somebody talk to her?
[01:44:04.160] Like what?
[01:44:05.440] Straighten her out.
[01:44:07.960] What do you mean, threaten her? That's
[01:44:09.560] all I need.
[01:44:11.200] How else do you expect to keep her
[01:44:12.440] quiet? Can you turn that up? No, this is
[01:44:14.080] as low as I can get it, unfortunately.
[01:44:15.560] >> Okay.
[01:44:18.200] Well,
[01:44:19.960] wise guy, what do you suggest?
[01:44:23.000] What did you call me for?
[01:44:25.760] I don't know. I I hoped you'd have more
[01:44:27.520] experience with something like this.
[01:44:30.960] You called me because you needed some
[01:44:32.280] dirty work done. That's all you ever
[01:44:34.240] call for.
[01:44:37.880] Look how petty you are.
[01:44:41.280] You've staked me plenty of times. I
[01:44:43.600] don't forget my obligations.
[01:44:46.040] Threatening her will only make it worse,
[01:44:47.400] Jack.
[01:44:49.160] Okay, forget about it. What do you want
[01:44:51.320] me to say?
[01:44:52.400] How the hell can I forget about it? I'm
[01:44:54.600] fighting for my life.
[01:44:56.560] This woman's going to destroy everything
[01:44:57.960] I've built.
[01:44:59.680] That's what I'm saying, Judah. If the
[01:45:01.160] woman won't listen to reason, then you
[01:45:02.640] go on to the next step.
[01:45:04.960] What? Threats? Violence? What are we
[01:45:06.920] talking about here? She can be gotten
[01:45:08.640] rid of.
[01:45:09.600] I mean, I know a lot of people. Money
[01:45:11.320] will buy whatever's necessary.
[01:45:12.600] >> even going to comment on that. That's
[01:45:13.840] mind boggling.
[01:45:15.280] Well, what did you want me to do when
[01:45:16.720] you called me? Not to do dirty work,
[01:45:18.640] despite what you think.
[01:45:22.280] Anyway, it's got beyond just Miriam now.
[01:45:24.720] She's
[01:45:26.400] She's talking financial doings. I
[01:45:30.360] I'm out of ideas.
[01:45:33.120] I don't know what I expected from you,
[01:45:34.360] Jack, but
[01:45:35.640] You know,
[01:45:36.520] you're not aware of what goes on in this
[01:45:38.360] world. I mean, you sit up here with your
[01:45:40.200] four acres
[01:45:41.080] >> me that crap. You know I don't want to
[01:45:42.000] hear about my sister.
[01:45:43.000] >> your rich friends and out there in the
[01:45:45.160] real world, it's a whole different
[01:45:46.360] story.
[01:45:46.880] >> Come on.
[01:45:48.160] I've met a lot of characters from when I
[01:45:49.560] had the restaurant
[01:45:50.480] >> I've heard these stories before.
[01:45:52.080] >> Avenue, from Atlantic City,
[01:45:54.080] and I'm not so high class that I can
[01:45:55.720] avoid looking at reality. I can't afford
[01:45:58.360] to be aloof.
[01:46:00.480] When you come to me with a hell of a
[01:46:01.680] problem and then you get high handed on
[01:46:03.840] me.
[01:46:06.120] Jack, I don't need to be high handed. I
[01:46:07.800] haven't been sleeping nights. I'm
[01:46:09.000] nervous up all okay?
[01:46:10.040] >> Okay. Okay, forget I said anything.
[01:46:17.000] Let me just get something straight here.
[01:46:21.000] Am I understanding you right? I mean,
[01:46:25.000] are you suggesting getting rid of her?
[01:46:28.720] You won't be involved,
[01:46:30.560] but I'll need some cash.
[01:46:36.880] What will they do?
[01:46:39.480] What will they do? They'll handle it.
[01:46:44.720] I can't believe I'm talking about a
[01:46:45.840] human being, Jack. She's not an
[01:46:48.600] insect. You don't just step on her.
[01:46:52.440] I know.
[01:46:53.680] Playing hardball was never your game.
[01:46:56.320] You never liked to get your hands dirty.
[01:46:58.320] But apparently this woman is for real
[01:47:01.320] and this thing isn't just going to go
[01:47:02.680] away.
[01:47:06.000] I can't do it.
[01:47:09.520] I can't think that way.
[01:47:23.080] So, you while everybody's watching
[01:47:24.480] Kubrick,
[01:47:26.880] this is a guy in Epstein's direct orbit.
[01:47:28.840] This is what Epstein was. He was a
[01:47:30.600] starker.
[01:47:32.960] He was a science spy. He was a starker.
[01:47:35.360] He had buttons.
[01:47:37.680] And we're just all pretending like we
[01:47:39.520] have no memory of this, no idea about
[01:47:42.160] how we're all connected, how the highest
[01:47:45.000] in society are connected to the people
[01:47:46.920] who get things done.
[01:47:48.880] And blackmail.
[01:47:51.560] Blackmail is a lot like we're over
[01:47:53.760] indexed on
[01:47:55.400] in my opinion. Again, who am I? I'm just
[01:47:57.640] a guest, but
[01:47:58.360] >> But this is this
[01:47:59.720] assumption. Well, I I was very early
[01:48:02.880] saying he was a construct when nobody
[01:48:04.600] would listen.
[01:48:06.440] >> Here's the next piece of it.
[01:48:08.280] I think he had buttons.
[01:48:11.520] He had button men at his control.
[01:48:13.680] He made problems disappear. Things went
[01:48:16.120] away.
[01:48:17.560] That's how you make sure
[01:48:20.000] that you have the experience of being a
[01:48:21.560] king rather than a billionaire.
[01:48:24.440] The billionaires had more money than
[01:48:26.080] him.
[01:48:28.320] But they didn't have the ability to make
[01:48:29.760] their problems go away.
[01:48:32.160] And by the way,
[01:48:33.280] I'm not suggesting that all the people
[01:48:35.040] in his orbit were availing themselves of
[01:48:37.200] this as a service.
[01:48:39.040] But if I was a competent investigator, I
[01:48:41.360] would be talking to Woody Allen and
[01:48:43.000] saying,
[01:48:44.530] >> [snorts]
[01:48:45.360] >> "What did you mean by that scene?"
[01:48:50.880] Look, because you think that scene is
[01:48:53.000] directly connected to Woody Allen's
[01:48:54.680] relationship with Jeffrey Epstein.
[01:48:55.840] >> No, I think that that scene is directly
[01:48:57.800] connected
[01:48:59.200] to the connection between Hollywood and
[01:49:02.000] Teamsters and unions and organized
[01:49:04.360] crime.
[01:49:06.080] There are people who know how to make
[01:49:07.520] things happen that aren't within the
[01:49:09.960] law.
[01:49:10.960] What is the mafia? We go we watch all
[01:49:12.960] these mafia pictures, right? Mhm.
[01:49:16.280] The mafia is about contract enforcement
[01:49:18.160] when you can't use the courts.
[01:49:20.480] That doesn't sound like what the mafia
[01:49:22.040] is, but that's what it is. It's a
[01:49:23.880] business. What happens when you're in an
[01:49:26.240] illegal business and you can't enforce a
[01:49:28.000] contract?
[01:49:32.480] Right? Yeah.
[01:49:33.400] >> You have to use muscle.
[01:49:35.360] So we we use gentile he like he says
[01:49:38.320] she can be taught we should you want me
[01:49:39.760] to talk to her.
[01:49:43.520] Uh we can handle it.
[01:49:46.600] Th- This is the gentile language
[01:49:50.320] of roughing somebody up,
[01:49:52.760] killing somebody,
[01:49:55.960] and making problems go away.
[01:49:58.520] So the mafia is about business. It's not
[01:50:00.520] about violence.
[01:50:05.680] Okay, so his connection to scientist
[01:50:07.760] though. What was the purpose of that?
[01:50:10.200] We don't know, but I keep saying
[01:50:12.800] >> My assumption is is that he was a uh a
[01:50:15.120] clearinghouse.
[01:50:17.280] That somebody set him up at fair
[01:50:19.200] expense. I'm going to say nine-figure
[01:50:21.800] expense. So I think this was a
[01:50:23.520] nine-figure fortune, hundreds of
[01:50:25.320] millions.
[01:50:27.560] And
[01:50:29.320] what it had was it had the trappings of
[01:50:32.760] multi-billionaire.
[01:50:34.920] It had trillionaire
[01:50:37.920] written all over it for a nine-figure
[01:50:40.280] fortune. So it's orders of magnitude off
[01:50:42.440] of what it was. And I believe that that
[01:50:44.920] that was only possible because there was
[01:50:47.680] a collection of sovereigns behind him.
[01:50:51.200] I don't think it was one nation. I think
[01:50:52.680] it was a bunch of countries.
[01:50:55.120] And the most obvious country is not
[01:50:57.400] Israel. It's the US because he was
[01:50:59.400] operating on US soil.
[01:51:01.720] Do I think Israel was involved?
[01:51:03.040] Certainly. Do I think that the UK was
[01:51:04.880] involved?
[01:51:06.800] I do. Saudi Arabia? I do.
[01:51:10.640] I think that this was a massive piece of
[01:51:12.800] structure con-
[01:51:14.360] confused with a sex scandal and a
[01:51:15.880] blackmail operation. We're we're all
[01:51:17.840] sort of
[01:51:19.320] taking the bait.
[01:51:20.800] So, the sex scandal and all the sex
[01:51:23.320] stuff was sort of keep people happy and
[01:51:26.240] give people a place to go to where they
[01:51:27.960] could have these experiences. If you're
[01:51:29.480] dealing with physicists or some
[01:51:33.120] high-end scientist guy
[01:51:35.160] they don't have access to this. They
[01:51:36.680] probably never been with a beautiful
[01:51:38.320] woman in their life. All of a sudden
[01:51:40.120] they're hanging out with champions
[01:51:41.200] again. I'm not talking about you, [ __ ]
[01:51:42.360] No, I'm
[01:51:43.520] >> I'm sure you're fine. Ain't talking
[01:51:44.720] about love. Let's but let's be a
[01:51:46.160] realistic. Most of these guys aren't
[01:51:48.600] they're not hot. Right? And then all of
[01:51:50.720] a sudden they're around 10s who are
[01:51:52.080] giving them back massages and drugs are
[01:51:54.480] being used and there's this feeling of
[01:51:57.280] anonymity
[01:51:57.960] >> Yeah.
[01:51:58.720] of safety. You can get away with this.
[01:52:00.640] Everybody else is doing it. It's been
[01:52:02.120] going on for decades. It's fine. This is
[01:52:04.520] a place you go and it's fun and they
[01:52:06.720] look forward to it and they probably
[01:52:08.400] also do have intellectual discussions
[01:52:10.240] cuz you are surrounded by Who wouldn't
[01:52:12.320] want in? Right.
[01:52:14.640] Right. So, that's how he ropes you in.
[01:52:16.360] So, what is his
[01:52:17.960] why scientists and what would be the
[01:52:20.200] benefit of having access to these
[01:52:22.240] scientists and having this place on
[01:52:23.760] Zorro Ranch and being able to talk to
[01:52:25.480] these people?
[01:52:27.440] Think about it from the
[01:52:28.680] perspective of who is doing the
[01:52:30.600] constructing rather than the
[01:52:32.040] constructed. So, he's the construct.
[01:52:35.000] Okay. He's an incompetent.
[01:52:37.240] He just lied to Steve Bannon. Mis- You
[01:52:39.560] see him touch his face, classic tell of
[01:52:41.920] lying.
[01:52:43.400] Um
[01:52:43.640] >> Touching your face is a classic tell of
[01:52:45.040] lying? If you look at what he just did,
[01:52:46.640] he Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:52:48.000] >> 100%. So, he's lying about the
[01:52:51.000] information or he's lying about his
[01:52:53.240] depth
[01:52:53.440] >> liar. Yes, he's lying about his depth of
[01:52:55.440] knowledge.
[01:52:55.880] >> Okay. So, how did I know he was a
[01:52:57.320] construct? In part one of the things
[01:52:59.640] like they're dumb tells that we give
[01:53:01.320] away.
[01:53:02.520] One of his was he was supposed to be a
[01:53:04.160] currency trader. When we say we're
[01:53:06.600] trading currency, we're not trading
[01:53:08.120] currency. We're trading
[01:53:09.680] what are called spot contracts that are
[01:53:11.320] to be settled with an exchange of
[01:53:13.160] currency in 2 days time.
[01:53:15.440] Right? So, in other words, if we if we
[01:53:17.000] if I do a euro trade, it's really a
[01:53:18.440] dollar euro trade, and you and I are
[01:53:19.960] going to trade dollars for euros, and we
[01:53:21.560] agree to do it in 2 days time. And then
[01:53:23.600] if you want to keep the position on, you
[01:53:25.280] exchange that contract for a contract
[01:53:27.600] that will follow
[01:53:29.160] to erase that contract and form a new
[01:53:31.280] contract with which pushes it out 2
[01:53:32.840] days. You call that rolling things over.
[01:53:34.640] Okay.
[01:53:35.880] He didn't know that dollar Canada was on
[01:53:38.400] a 1-day contract rather than a 2-day
[01:53:40.720] contract where everything else. So, in
[01:53:42.360] other words, there was an anomaly.
[01:53:44.280] And anybody in currency trading would
[01:53:46.880] have known that.
[01:53:48.440] Or I forget whether he didn't know that
[01:53:50.320] uh
[01:53:51.880] trading pounds for dollars is called
[01:53:53.680] cable in the business. So, he there were
[01:53:56.000] there were just dumb tells
[01:53:58.240] that he didn't know about foreign
[01:53:59.680] exchange.
[01:54:01.200] Yeah? Mhm. So, you know, he's claiming
[01:54:03.800] to be an FX hedge fund manager to me,
[01:54:06.640] and there were there were stupid tells
[01:54:07.960] like that.
[01:54:08.560] >> Right.
[01:54:09.400] >> he like he knows way too much about my
[01:54:12.800] exactly particular
[01:54:15.520] specialty in mathematics.
[01:54:18.520] Like
[01:54:20.560] the number of people could have come
[01:54:21.720] from would be five or fewer.
[01:54:24.280] Um so, technically what I did my thesis
[01:54:27.000] on is something called self-dual
[01:54:28.760] Yang-Mills theory, which is about
[01:54:32.000] every force other than gravity is a
[01:54:34.000] Yang-Mills force.
[01:54:35.840] Except my thesis was really about
[01:54:37.400] gravity,
[01:54:38.520] and I didn't disclose it, and only
[01:54:40.240] people very very close to me knew that
[01:54:42.240] that's what it was about.
[01:54:43.960] He was obsessed with gravity.
[01:54:46.920] And
[01:54:49.240] he shows up, I think, in the Harvard
[01:54:50.880] math department in 2002 with Dick Gross.
[01:54:55.200] And
[01:54:56.760] clearly he was talking to people in the
[01:54:59.120] Cambridge mathematical physics world
[01:55:02.360] who would have been you know there
[01:55:06.640] There's something called the
[01:55:07.120] Chern-Simons theory which is
[01:55:10.360] mistakenly associated closely with
[01:55:12.240] Yang-Mills theory but is really all
[01:55:13.920] about gravity.
[01:55:16.040] And that my work really shows that
[01:55:19.720] there is a parent theory that has
[01:55:21.760] Chern-Simons theory and gravity as its
[01:55:24.280] two consequences. He knows about that
[01:55:26.520] without knowing anything about the
[01:55:27.800] structure in the subject matter.
[01:55:30.760] He knows about the history of my stuff
[01:55:32.560] and something called Cyborg Witten
[01:55:34.080] theory.
[01:55:35.520] He doesn't know anything concrete. How
[01:55:37.680] does he know all this stuff?
[01:55:40.320] He was in my world.
[01:55:42.960] And he was very focused you know on
[01:55:46.160] I I met him through Jess Staley
[01:55:49.120] um who was at JP Morgan.
[01:55:53.280] Now Jess Staley is deeply implicated in
[01:55:55.520] this. I didn't know that at the time.
[01:55:58.000] And
[01:56:01.240] Jeff Epstein has been mirroring my
[01:56:02.720] entire life, everything that I do.
[01:56:05.400] And I became well known when I was
[01:56:06.720] writing these essays for edge.org and he
[01:56:09.040] was in with John Brockman at the
[01:56:10.520] Brockman Literary Agency.
[01:56:13.160] Uh
[01:56:14.120] when I got married uh the rabbi came
[01:56:16.400] from Harvard Hillel which was a building
[01:56:18.360] now called Rosovsky Hall which he put
[01:56:20.240] together with Les Wexner's money.
[01:56:23.080] Um
[01:56:24.640] he was
[01:56:25.880] funding probably the conference at the
[01:56:27.920] Perimeter Institute that we did on the
[01:56:29.960] financial crisis.
[01:56:31.720] At every turn in my life since I was a
[01:56:34.120] young man
[01:56:35.400] Jeffrey Epstein was
[01:56:36.960] there
[01:56:38.400] in the background even though I only
[01:56:39.640] meet him once. Why do you think that is?
[01:56:42.080] Because we're interested in the exact
[01:56:43.560] same thing. And what is that?
[01:56:46.120] The
[01:56:47.040] the most powerful stuff in the universe.
[01:56:49.720] Why is he interested in that if he
[01:56:51.560] doesn't know the What am I What do I
[01:56:52.680] care about? I care about finance and
[01:56:54.240] financial markets. like about the CPI.
[01:56:57.120] I care about the fate of Israel. I care
[01:56:59.040] about
[01:57:00.440] uh evolutionary theory. I care about
[01:57:02.720] mathematics that goes like
[01:57:05.920] geometry, like the geometry of elliptic
[01:57:07.720] curves, but really more in differential
[01:57:09.800] geometry. You care about physics.
[01:57:12.240] Every time that I care
[01:57:14.920] and I care about the smart the world's
[01:57:16.720] smartest people at a functional level,
[01:57:18.800] not the people with the highest IQ, but
[01:57:20.440] the people who are irreverent enough
[01:57:23.000] to actually move the needle.
[01:57:25.520] So, he and I uh we're just
[01:57:29.640] we're interested in where's the action?
[01:57:32.920] Where's the high-end intellectual action
[01:57:34.960] in the world that actually moves things?
[01:57:38.120] And you know
[01:57:39.560] quite frankly
[01:57:44.200] he was meeting in my offices in San
[01:57:46.000] Francisco while I wasn't aware of it in
[01:57:47.920] 2017.
[01:57:49.760] I didn't know that.
[01:57:51.000] Meeting in your offices, meaning he went
[01:57:53.480] to your office and met with who? Well, I
[01:57:56.080] with Peter. That's in the records. About
[01:57:58.560] you? No, I don't know. He he
[01:58:01.000] hopefully not. I I know that I'm in an
[01:58:02.800] email that he sends Peter late in the
[01:58:04.560] story.
[01:58:06.280] But I I I'm not going to discuss
[01:58:07.400] specifics, but
[01:58:09.240] no, I was telling Peter not to deal with
[01:58:10.840] him and Peter thought I was overblowing
[01:58:12.800] the the danger.
[01:58:15.400] I I I he scared me because
[01:58:21.680] I know
[01:58:23.120] what element he came from.
[01:58:25.960] That was not a refined person. That was
[01:58:27.600] a scary, scary person.
[01:58:30.760] That that was a person who came
[01:58:34.040] you know, like the Hesh character on The
[01:58:36.160] Sopranos? Mhm.
[01:58:40.600] Or Moe Greene in the in The Godfather.
[01:58:43.560] Yeah.
[01:58:43.840] >> Yeah. That's that element.
[01:58:47.720] And you recognized that immediately. I
[01:58:50.640] Well, that was my point in in bringing
[01:58:51.840] up crimes and misdemeanors.
[01:58:53.800] It's not like I don't know people.
[01:58:56.120] I understand that all this. But, what do
[01:58:58.040] you think his purpose was? Like, so
[01:59:01.040] getting connected to all these
[01:59:02.120] scientists, being around all this
[01:59:03.840] knowledge, the New Mexico, I still don't
[01:59:06.040] understand like what was the end game?
[01:59:07.720] >> Can I get another drink? Absolutely.
[01:59:09.400] >> Thank you, sir. Okay, can I share this
[01:59:11.240] article with you?
[01:59:11.920] >> Please do. Okay, this was the one I just
[01:59:13.880] pulled up a second ago.
[01:59:15.160] >> could get another ice cube, too, that
[01:59:16.520] would be great. I would just say this.
[01:59:18.440] Um
[01:59:19.080] Jeff can get us an ice cube, please.
[01:59:21.200] I would just down here this kind of this
[01:59:23.800] is a long article. I believe this most
[01:59:25.680] of this comes from the Epstein files
[01:59:27.120] that came out on the DOJ's website. Uh
[01:59:29.320] this the woman who wrote this, she's a
[01:59:31.920] former Boston Globe and New York Times
[01:59:33.800] reporter.
[01:59:35.240] Uh also LA Times.
[01:59:37.840] The summary here is what I was kind of
[01:59:39.160] getting at cuz it kind of it's two or
[01:59:40.840] three paragraphs, but it explains a lot
[01:59:43.000] of what you're asking
[01:59:44.680] here.
[01:59:45.960] Standard framing of Jeffrey Epstein as a
[01:59:47.800] Mossad asset is well supported. Robert
[01:59:50.040] Maxwell, Ghislaine's father, sold Israel
[01:59:52.640] backdoor promise software to Sandia
[01:59:55.040] National Laboratories in 1985. His
[01:59:57.120] eldest daughter, Christine Maxwell,
[01:59:59.320] built the FBI's post-9/11
[02:00:01.120] counterterrorism data warehouse through
[02:00:02.920] her company, Chil- Chiliad. Uh Isabel
[02:00:06.280] Maxwell, Christine's twin sister,
[02:00:08.000] co-founded
[02:00:09.520] Comtouch with Israel Unit
[02:00:12.400] 8200 alumni.
[02:00:14.800] Ghislaine ran the human intelligence
[02:00:17.040] operation, the Israel intelligence
[02:00:18.880] network, around both Maxwell and Epstein
[02:00:21.520] is documented and substantial. But, the
[02:00:23.880] intelligence infrastructure supporting
[02:00:25.440] Epstein and Maxwell at Zorro Ranch
[02:00:27.600] points somewhere else or to somewhere
[02:00:30.320] additional. It points to United States
[02:00:32.440] military intelligence, plain and simple.
[02:00:35.000] The contractor who built his encrypted
[02:00:37.200] link to Orbit is American, headquartered
[02:00:39.680] in Georgia, and now holds a Missile
[02:00:41.200] Defense Agency contract. The satellite
[02:00:43.200] uplink was authorized by an American FCC
[02:00:46.080] license. The project was managed out of
[02:00:48.440] New York office. The man who recruited
[02:00:50.600] Epstein as a child served in the
[02:00:53.200] American OSS and his own son was in
[02:00:56.360] charge of the Federal Justice Department
[02:00:58.040] when Epstein died or didn't in its
[02:01:00.160] custody.
[02:01:01.000] >> and his father, so that's referring to.
[02:01:03.320] The man whose ranch provided the ideal
[02:01:06.400] relay point was OSS built American
[02:01:08.840] missile guidance systems and military
[02:01:10.640] drones and just up the road another
[02:01:12.480] former OSS guy Carl Engler sold his New
[02:01:16.440] Mexico ranch to the strangest duo of all
[02:01:18.840] time, Donald Rumsfeld and Dan Rather.
[02:01:23.200] Hmm.
[02:01:24.840] So, this is what I've been trying to say
[02:01:26.560] all along. The only country that I'm
[02:01:28.360] absolutely positive was behind Jeffrey
[02:01:30.800] Epstein is is us.
[02:01:33.440] You can't operate here.
[02:01:37.840] Look,
[02:01:39.160] right now we are in the middle of
[02:01:40.960] endless anti-Semitic Christmas.
[02:01:44.120] Just goes on forever.
[02:01:45.760] And
[02:01:47.400] you can
[02:01:49.229] >> [snorts]
[02:01:50.640] >> you look at Jeffrey Epstein. I have no
[02:01:51.960] question he was directly connected to
[02:01:53.600] Israel, you know?
[02:01:55.840] Um
[02:01:57.240] but first and foremost,
[02:01:59.960] I believe that he and and I hate when we
[02:02:02.480] use the word asset.
[02:02:05.160] You should use a vaguer word because
[02:02:07.040] those technical things like who's an
[02:02:08.960] agent, who's an operator,
[02:02:12.680] uh
[02:02:13.840] agent is a word used differently by the
[02:02:15.680] FBI and CIA. Every time we try to sound
[02:02:18.440] like we're cool, like we know what the
[02:02:19.880] intelligence community actually is, we
[02:02:22.240] make mistakes because we say something
[02:02:24.120] that it becomes deniable.
[02:02:27.280] You know, so like there's a concept of
[02:02:29.400] knock, non-official cover. Mhm. You
[02:02:32.200] know, if you say somebody, you know, is
[02:02:33.880] a knock and you and you you guess the
[02:02:35.400] wrong distinction,
[02:02:37.600] they can say, "No, he wasn't."
[02:02:39.520] Was he an asset? Was I'm sure that has a
[02:02:41.320] technical meaning. You don't mean it
[02:02:43.200] technically.
[02:02:45.120] You mean, was he in any way affiliated
[02:02:47.560] with the intelligence community? And
[02:02:50.160] just not just the intelligence
[02:02:51.240] community. One of the ways that the
[02:02:52.880] intelligence community functions is as a
[02:02:55.400] cover
[02:02:56.600] for the special operations community.
[02:02:59.120] Right? Covert operations is something
[02:03:01.080] the CIA does through ground branch
[02:03:03.480] that is not intelligence.
[02:03:07.200] So, we call it intelligence and we give
[02:03:09.080] them a free pass all the time.
[02:03:11.760] No, those that those are the guys who do
[02:03:13.240] the wet work.
[02:03:14.840] That's a paramilitary organization.
[02:03:19.760] Right. So, my claim is
[02:03:22.680] that Epstein
[02:03:24.040] is a major piece of structure having
[02:03:25.960] nothing to do with the actor that they
[02:03:27.520] hired.
[02:03:29.880] Okay. So, you think Epstein is
[02:03:31.920] essentially just a construct figurehead
[02:03:36.040] of an intelligence gathering
[02:03:37.520] organization.
[02:03:38.480] >> No.
[02:03:39.160] No?
[02:03:40.400] Epstein is a construct first first of
[02:03:43.200] all. Second of all, there is an
[02:03:45.640] intelligence part of the intelligence
[02:03:47.760] community
[02:03:49.080] and there's a covert operations part of
[02:03:51.480] the intelligence community. Okay. Covert
[02:03:54.280] operations is not intelligence. I know
[02:03:56.680] it's under that roof. Right.
[02:03:58.400] >> That is totally wrong. Got it. Right.
[02:04:00.640] Okay. So, if you want bad things to
[02:04:02.680] happen to somebody, you don't call
[02:04:04.600] intelligence cuz that's just human
[02:04:06.440] intelligence or signals intelligence or
[02:04:08.200] whatever.
[02:04:09.520] You're not going to call a cryptographer
[02:04:10.800] to make a problem go away.
[02:04:13.840] Right. What does this have to do with
[02:04:15.600] the science community?
[02:04:17.880] One,
[02:04:19.800] we have huge amounts of power.
[02:04:24.040] The United States is terribly configured
[02:04:26.200] because we pretend that we're okay doing
[02:04:29.080] everything through our university
[02:04:30.360] system, which shouldn't be done
[02:04:33.880] in an open setting. Like you have to be
[02:04:36.160] honest about the fact that we're badly
[02:04:37.680] configured. What do you mean by that?
[02:04:39.400] >> We didn't know how deadly physics was.
[02:04:42.480] When Rutherford in 1911 said that
[02:04:44.480] there's a neutron,
[02:04:47.480] nobody I'm sure I'm sure nobody said to
[02:04:49.080] him, "Oh my god, you've ended the plan
[02:04:51.000] Now new humanity is doomed." So, it used
[02:04:53.560] to be the case that physics was
[02:04:55.520] something that was like interesting and
[02:04:56.840] fun.
[02:04:57.920] But, now it's like the most deadly thing
[02:04:59.440] you can imagine, as well as being
[02:05:00.840] interesting. And a quick timeline, too.
[02:05:02.560] If you stop and think about that, we're
[02:05:03.960] talking about
[02:05:04.400] >> Yeah. So, literally.
[02:05:06.440] Yeah.
[02:05:06.760] >> 41 years.
[02:05:09.440] So, my claim is that we are walking
[02:05:11.800] around right now
[02:05:14.160] with all of these extremely deadly ninja
[02:05:17.480] prince priests
[02:05:19.880] in our physics departments and our math
[02:05:21.320] departments, who don't even know that
[02:05:22.920] they're deadly ninja priests.
[02:05:25.400] They've never worked on something
[02:05:26.480] classified. They've never solved
[02:05:28.040] problems for our government. But, in
[02:05:30.160] part, we fund our science our scientists
[02:05:33.320] as part of a complex cryptic arrangement
[02:05:35.920] worked out by Vannevar Bush
[02:05:38.120] that is now remembered by essentially no
[02:05:40.200] one.
[02:05:42.640] So, the idea is
[02:05:44.560] you people, Teller, Ulam, Feynman,
[02:05:47.240] Oppenheimer,
[02:05:48.840] Von Neumann,
[02:05:51.400] you are dev group you're you're
[02:05:54.760] SEAL Team Six of the human mind. You're
[02:05:57.120] Delta.
[02:05:59.520] And most of the time you're going to
[02:06:01.040] teach classes.
[02:06:03.600] You know, it's like Indiana Jones is you
[02:06:06.200] know, an archaeologist with a bow tie,
[02:06:08.560] and then he's running around with a whip
[02:06:09.840] and, you know, killing people and Right.
[02:06:12.542] >> [snorts]
[02:06:13.080] >> Okay. That's what physicists and
[02:06:14.920] mathematicians are.
[02:06:17.440] That's why we're funded.
[02:06:19.160] That's why the Department of Energy
[02:06:20.440] funds physics. It's not the Department
[02:06:21.960] of Energy. It's the Department of
[02:06:23.160] Nuclear Weapons.
[02:06:25.320] It's the Department of Physics. So, they
[02:06:27.320] let the physics people work out all
[02:06:28.880] these problems, and then they take
[02:06:31.120] whatever their findings are and apply
[02:06:32.960] them to weapons.
[02:06:34.520] Boom, vroom, and zoom. All right. And
[02:06:37.320] that changed the economy, it changes the
[02:06:39.800] ability to
[02:06:41.520] compute.
[02:06:44.040] This is what This is who I really am.
[02:06:46.200] This is what I really do. And I will not
[02:06:48.640] mouth this narrative that all of my
[02:06:51.000] colleagues will mouth.
[02:06:53.320] Physics is interesting. Yeah, but a lot
[02:06:55.560] of the time it's dull.
[02:06:57.840] You know,
[02:06:58.880] physics is international. Oh, really?
[02:07:00.920] Why do you think the American taxpayers
[02:07:02.800] funding this international effort? Just
[02:07:05.160] to educate Chinese?
[02:07:07.640] For all I know, we're trying to
[02:07:08.720] sterilize the Chinese and the Indians
[02:07:10.840] with string theory.
[02:07:12.560] So, because nobody's talked to me about
[02:07:15.200] this, I can speak freely.
[02:07:17.520] But if you ask me, you know, the Indians
[02:07:19.720] are some of the most aggressive string
[02:07:20.960] theorists on Earth. And my question is,
[02:07:24.320] did do we import them in such large
[02:07:26.280] numbers so that they'll go home and be
[02:07:27.840] ineffectual?
[02:07:32.200] That's crazy. So, that's a real
[02:07:34.120] possibility. Yeah.
[02:07:35.360] >> That string theory exists as a
[02:07:37.600] distraction.
[02:07:39.600] Joe, what do you think the odds are that
[02:07:42.000] a scientist can say, "My failed theory
[02:07:44.680] is the only game in town and not get
[02:07:46.440] laughed out of town?"
[02:07:49.600] Not so good. Yeah. I would imagine in a
[02:07:52.080] free-thinking world, not so good.
[02:07:53.920] >> world, I would say, "Ed Witten, you're
[02:07:55.280] full of shit."
[02:07:56.960] Who talks like that? You're not you
[02:07:59.160] You're the smartest person I've ever met
[02:08:00.880] and you have not earned the right to say
[02:08:02.640] that your failed theory, your disaster
[02:08:06.760] of a catastrophe
[02:08:09.000] of a theory is the most failed theory in
[02:08:11.360] history in physics. And you're saying
[02:08:13.400] it's the only game in town? Who died and
[02:08:15.440] left you king, sir? I want to bring you
[02:08:17.680] to one of the weirdest theories that you
[02:08:19.240] have.
[02:08:19.640] >> All right. Which is you talked about
[02:08:21.760] this
[02:08:23.360] very overly supported
[02:08:27.120] physics department in this upstate
[02:08:29.760] university upstate New York university
[02:08:31.880] that's attached to a hedge fund. Stony
[02:08:34.440] Brook's mathematics department and
[02:08:36.680] physics department. Yeah. Yeah. This is
[02:08:39.280] a weird one. All right. Cuz it's
[02:08:40.760] attached to a hedge fund that does
[02:08:42.120] Bernie Madoff type numbers.
[02:08:44.600] Bernie Madoff is a loser [ __ ]
[02:08:50.040] Joe
[02:08:51.400] Bernie Madoff was regular and that's why
[02:08:53.440] they called him the Jewish T-Bill.
[02:08:56.120] T-Bill? What's a T-Bill? A treasury
[02:08:58.760] security that allowed you to just
[02:09:02.200] earn some very boring, very high rate of
[02:09:04.880] return where you were supposedly having
[02:09:06.760] your money at risk, but you essentially
[02:09:09.000] never lost there were like almost no
[02:09:10.440] down months. Mhm.
[02:09:12.520] Renaissance Technologies
[02:09:14.640] is like, "No, no, no.
[02:09:17.080] Hold my beer.
[02:09:18.400] We're just going to make numbers like
[02:09:19.840] nobody's ever made in human history.
[02:09:21.560] There's nobody in second or third place
[02:09:23.200] relative to Renaissance Technologies
[02:09:24.840] Medallion Fund."
[02:09:26.760] And how is it connected to this
[02:09:28.440] university and what do you think is
[02:09:29.960] going on up there?
[02:09:34.320] One, I don't know.
[02:09:35.960] But something weird.
[02:09:38.160] It's weird as hell.
[02:09:39.920] I I know
[02:09:41.120] I knew Jim Simons personally.
[02:09:44.640] Jim Simons
[02:09:47.120] is a genius.
[02:09:49.880] But a lot of other people are geniuses.
[02:09:52.240] I hate to say it, but you can't swing a
[02:09:54.160] cat in my world without hitting a
[02:09:55.640] genius.
[02:09:57.200] So he was he was great.
[02:10:00.520] But he wasn't that much smarter
[02:10:03.320] than every other genius at that level.
[02:10:07.600] So I would say, you know,
[02:10:09.040] top 100 minds in mathematics and physics
[02:10:11.920] clearly better than that.
[02:10:18.800] Jim started off working for the DIA, the
[02:10:21.640] Defense Intelligence Unit.
[02:10:24.400] Um
[02:10:25.920] supposedly quit out of outrage over
[02:10:28.400] Vietnam,
[02:10:29.760] becomes the super young chairman of the
[02:10:31.520] SUNY Stony Brook Mathematics Department,
[02:10:34.600] holds a lunch center seminar
[02:10:38.000] with
[02:10:39.240] a guy who will become the world's
[02:10:42.400] smartest living physicist, a guy named
[02:10:45.120] C.N. Yang.
[02:10:48.080] And they discover over lunch a
[02:10:50.000] connection between differential
[02:10:51.360] geometry, Jim's
[02:10:54.400] uh specialty, and C.N. Yang's
[02:10:57.560] uh specialty, which is the standard
[02:10:59.280] model.
[02:11:01.440] Jim then quits,
[02:11:04.000] forms
[02:11:05.800] a hedge fund
[02:11:07.400] long before it's cool
[02:11:09.360] with the father of another guest of
[02:11:12.320] yours on this program, Brian Keating.
[02:11:16.000] And the two of them both have medals, so
[02:11:18.600] they call it Medallion because they've
[02:11:20.200] won prizes.
[02:11:22.440] So, what was his name? James Ax, not
[02:11:24.840] Keating.
[02:11:25.880] Uh
[02:11:27.000] and the two of them start this thing,
[02:11:28.400] and it takes off at some level that
[02:11:30.200] nobody's ever seen numbers before.
[02:11:33.560] And then they institute this policy,
[02:11:35.760] which is we're not going to hire
[02:11:36.840] financial experts.
[02:11:38.720] We're only going to hire math
[02:11:40.680] physics people.
[02:11:42.280] So, we're going to hire geometers, we're
[02:11:44.040] going to hire particle theorists,
[02:11:45.600] general relativists, and machine
[02:11:47.160] learning people.
[02:11:49.280] It's like
[02:11:51.200] who who came up with this story?
[02:11:54.840] Do you Do you buy this story?
[02:11:56.960] This is so strange because it it sort of
[02:11:58.400] also mirrors a second story
[02:12:00.880] that was not associated with Brookhaven,
[02:12:03.760] which is the national lab near SUNY
[02:12:05.280] Stony Brook,
[02:12:06.960] but associated with Los Alamos, which is
[02:12:09.120] a story called the Prediction Company.
[02:12:11.760] Except in that case, the name of the
[02:12:13.720] person isn't Jim Simons, it's Doyne
[02:12:15.600] Farmer.
[02:12:17.360] And the prediction company is the analog
[02:12:19.520] of Renaissance. So, what you see is that
[02:12:21.160] once people have a pattern, it seems
[02:12:22.800] like these patterns repeat.
[02:12:26.720] So, my point is if you ask the question,
[02:12:29.080] do we have a Manhattan Project in the
[02:12:31.080] current era?
[02:12:33.080] We don't know. You don't know, I don't
[02:12:34.760] know.
[02:12:36.040] But, if we're allowed to speculate,
[02:12:38.560] question would be where would it be
[02:12:39.560] located?
[02:12:41.160] So, how would you find, for example,
[02:12:44.080] the existence of a boy's school in rural
[02:12:47.080] New Mexico where all of these super
[02:12:49.800] smart people are holed up?
[02:12:52.880] That's a real puzzle. How would you
[02:12:54.320] figure out that Los Alamos was happening
[02:12:56.200] if that was your goal?
[02:12:59.000] Um
[02:13:01.560] you'd look for indirect evidence. Can
[02:13:03.640] you Jamie, can you call up an article
[02:13:05.800] called Forbidden City from 1944 by a guy
[02:13:09.240] named, unfortunately, Jack Raper, r a p
[02:13:12.040] e r?
[02:13:13.200] Change your name, bro.
[02:13:14.400] >> right?
[02:13:17.560] Just call yourself Rapper. Add a P or
[02:13:19.680] something.
[02:13:22.040] So,
[02:13:23.440] or a G in 1944, the craziest thing in
[02:13:26.240] the What? Graper?
[02:13:27.840] >> Graper, right, exactly.
[02:13:29.760] Um
[02:13:31.560] There it is. Okay. So, this article
[02:13:33.960] appeared Monday, March 13th, 1944.
[02:13:38.000] Santa Fe, New Mexico.
[02:13:40.360] The story of a secret city
[02:13:43.600] with a mayor
[02:13:45.880] who is the second Einstein working on a
[02:13:48.200] doomsday weapon
[02:13:50.400] where nothing leaks.
[02:13:53.480] And this is from what year? 1944.
[02:13:56.400] Okay. So, the entire
[02:13:58.680] Manhattan Project leaked
[02:14:02.000] because a Cleveland journalist named
[02:14:03.800] Jack Raper happened to vacation in New
[02:14:06.040] Mexico
[02:14:07.600] and stumbled
[02:14:10.080] on the greatest secret ever kept.
[02:14:14.320] Really?
[02:14:16.240] How can we not know this, Joe? Wow.
[02:14:19.520] And it's all about Oppenheimer.
[02:14:20.840] Residents must stay. Dr. Oppenheimer is
[02:14:23.400] a Harvard graduate, attended Cambridge,
[02:14:25.480] received a PhD from Gottingham
[02:14:28.760] University in Germany, Germany.
[02:14:31.360] Professor of Physics, University of
[02:14:32.840] California, California Institute of
[02:14:34.280] Technology, and is a fellow of too many
[02:14:37.000] organizations to enumerate. And so, they
[02:14:39.760] were
[02:14:41.040] recognizing that Oppenheimer was doing
[02:14:42.800] something. They knew that he was working
[02:14:44.520] on a doomsday device. Uncle Sam has
[02:14:46.680] placed the city in charge of two men.
[02:14:49.800] The men who command the soldiers
[02:14:52.440] I can't read it. To see that the garbage
[02:14:54.640] and rubbish are collected, the streets
[02:14:56.240] kept up, the electric light and plant
[02:14:58.120] and the water works functioning, and all
[02:14:59.760] other metropolitan work operating smooth
[02:15:02.480] is Colonel somebody.
[02:15:04.560] I don't know his name, but it isn't so
[02:15:06.240] important because the mister bigger the
[02:15:07.920] city is called Professor Dr. J. Robert
[02:15:10.440] Oppenheimer.
[02:15:11.880] Called the second Einstein by the
[02:15:13.920] newspapers of the West Coast. So, what
[02:15:15.880] I'm trying to say is
[02:15:17.760] Jack Rapier never got a Pulitzer Prize.
[02:15:22.760] Died in obscurity. Leslie Groves, who
[02:15:25.080] was the other guy who running was
[02:15:26.160] running the town, decided to send him to
[02:15:28.560] the Pacific to punish him for being the
[02:15:31.400] best journalist in America.
[02:15:34.320] And when he found out he was 60 years
[02:15:36.640] old, they decided, "Okay, we're we're
[02:15:38.320] just going to ignore this story and hope
[02:15:40.200] everyone else does because it's too
[02:15:41.600] crazy to be real."
[02:15:44.320] Now, what I'm telling you right now is
[02:15:47.760] Rapier never figured out what Los Alamos
[02:15:50.320] was, but he knows that it doesn't make
[02:15:51.920] sense. And I'm telling you Renaissance
[02:15:53.320] Technologies doesn't make sense.
[02:15:55.440] So, these different what? Another
[02:15:57.520] widespread belief is that he's
[02:15:58.840] developing ordinance and explosives.
[02:16:01.080] Supporters of this guess argue that it
[02:16:03.600] accounts for the number of mechanics
[02:16:05.240] working on the production of a single
[02:16:06.920] device.
[02:16:08.080] And there are others who would tell you
[02:16:10.000] tremendous explosions have been heard.
[02:16:11.280] Oh, that Jack Raper with his overactive
[02:16:13.320] imagination. Haha. The problem with
[02:16:15.880] conspiracy theorists is that they say
[02:16:17.880] the darndest things, Joe.
[02:16:19.800] Okay. So,
[02:16:21.400] what do you think they're working on?
[02:16:23.360] These people at
[02:16:24.840] this upstate New York University. Well,
[02:16:26.920] what are we not working on? In other
[02:16:28.640] words, how do you discover what we're
[02:16:30.040] actually up to is in part you listen for
[02:16:32.480] the holes.
[02:16:36.200] What do I work on?
[02:16:38.719] I work on the ability to get out of the
[02:16:40.599] solar system.
[02:16:42.559] That is my life's mission.
[02:16:47.200] I think Elon is a bit of a [ __ ]
[02:16:49.864] >> [laughter]
[02:16:53.920] >> Okay.
[02:16:54.960] How so? I don't know. He won't meet with
[02:16:56.800] me. Well,
[02:16:58.200] it's okay.
[02:16:58.519] >> Maybe because you called him a [ __ ]
[02:16:59.719] Yeah.
[02:17:00.599] No, but
[02:17:01.120] >> Maybe he's busy. Maybe he's trying to
[02:17:02.599] make chicks pregnant.
[02:17:05.240] No.
[02:17:06.239] >> [laughter]
[02:17:06.920] >> He meets with me.
[02:17:07.760] >> does to with recreation.
[02:17:09.800] Elon's a genius and Elon is trying
[02:17:13.800] to replace scientists with Grok.
[02:17:17.280] And one of the things I I was on an
[02:17:18.480] Indian podcast uh called the guy's name
[02:17:21.480] is BeerBiceps Guy, Ranveer. He's the Joe
[02:17:24.160] Rogan of India.
[02:17:25.760] And
[02:17:26.280] >> What's his name? Uh Ranveer Allahbadia.
[02:17:29.360] Can you find him? Shout out to Ranveer.
[02:17:31.040] Yeah. So, Ranveer is a friend of mine in
[02:17:33.679] Versova and
[02:17:36.160] I went on his podcast and I before
[02:17:38.639] SpaceX and X and XAI merged, I said
[02:17:43.559] um
[02:17:46.639] I said, "Look, I don't think SpaceX is
[02:17:48.559] Elon's space program.
[02:17:51.360] His space program is Grok.
[02:17:55.040] Elon doesn't trust scientists for good
[02:17:57.320] reason cuz they're weak.
[02:17:59.920] So, he's building his own scientist from
[02:18:02.160] when when we were strong.
[02:18:04.679] He's going to have it read the corpus of
[02:18:06.320] physics done by competent physicists who
[02:18:08.320] actually care about the physical world
[02:18:09.880] so he doesn't have to deal with any of
[02:18:11.440] us.
[02:18:12.280] That's why he won't meet. It's not
[02:18:13.840] because he's not interested, not because
[02:18:15.200] he doesn't know.
[02:18:17.599] Um, I invited him to the talk as I did
[02:18:19.519] you yesterday.
[02:18:23.000] The goal is to get out of the solar
[02:18:24.240] system and we're so far away from
[02:18:26.120] everything good that there's no way of
[02:18:28.080] doing it under relativity.
[02:18:30.599] So, why are we not researching the only
[02:18:33.320] thing
[02:18:34.679] that can save us, which is
[02:18:36.040] diversification? We need to spread out
[02:18:38.400] to the largest number of habitable
[02:18:40.160] worlds possible.
[02:18:42.200] So, this implies some sort of a new
[02:18:44.320] propulsion system.
[02:18:45.440] >> This implies new science. Stop thinking
[02:18:47.880] technology. There's no way that you
[02:18:49.840] can't engineer your way out of a science
[02:18:51.800] problem. You have to science your way
[02:18:53.080] out.
[02:18:53.240] >> And what would be that science?
[02:18:55.240] Post-Einstein, post-relativity. That's
[02:18:57.160] what I do.
[02:18:59.400] And how would that apply to us leaving
[02:19:01.760] the solar system? We don't live in
[02:19:03.320] space-time. Space-time has a speed
[02:19:05.000] limit.
[02:19:07.719] Explain that. If you can only go the
[02:19:09.679] speed of light at your best and you
[02:19:11.280] can't even get anywhere close to that.
[02:19:12.920] How are you going to get to something
[02:19:13.960] four years light years away?
[02:19:16.120] >> Okay.
[02:19:16.920] Um,
[02:19:18.800] in a fantasy world. By the time you go
[02:19:20.719] and come back even assuming all No, no,
[02:19:23.120] no.
[02:19:24.160] >> Assume you can go at under the speed of
[02:19:25.440] light, just under.
[02:19:27.240] You can use time dilation
[02:19:29.360] and relativistic
[02:19:30.120] >> effects to your benefit.
[02:19:32.360] But it's going to cost you eight years
[02:19:33.719] to go and come back. Right.
[02:19:36.240] Okay, I don't want to do that. If I'm
[02:19:37.639] going to explore the cosmos, I don't
[02:19:39.160] want to use I don't want to live in
[02:19:40.679] space-time.
[02:19:41.240] >> are the alternatives?
[02:19:43.160] The observers.
[02:19:45.240] The successor to space-time, I'm happy
[02:19:47.400] to predict this on your show, will be
[02:19:48.800] named the observers, which is a
[02:19:50.440] combination of not just using a
[02:19:52.360] four-dimensional space-time manifold,
[02:19:54.960] but a 14- and a four-dimensional space
[02:19:57.280] simultaneously. This was what I was
[02:19:58.880] talking about at the university
[02:20:00.680] yesterday.
[02:20:02.400] And how would that like when you say the
[02:20:04.160] difference between science and
[02:20:05.360] technology?
[02:20:06.760] So
[02:20:07.120] >> How would that science be applied? If we
[02:20:09.680] look at the surface of this table, I
[02:20:12.200] can't do this to it. Can't spread it
[02:20:14.600] apart, move it, right?
[02:20:16.160] >> to zoom. Right.
[02:20:17.360] >> It's a multi-touch gesture invented
[02:20:19.280] around 2003 or something, debuted at
[02:20:22.360] TED.
[02:20:23.600] But if I come to this device, I can do
[02:20:25.640] that. Your phone. Right. So imagine that
[02:20:27.800] this is space-time. Okay.
[02:20:29.920] And this is the observers.
[02:20:33.200] So if I want to go to a distant
[02:20:35.160] star,
[02:20:36.360] there's no way I'm going to just go
[02:20:37.920] really fast. Right.
[02:20:39.360] >> That's dumb.
[02:20:40.960] Um and I need an energy source and I
[02:20:43.040] need to do things that we can't normally
[02:20:45.200] do. You have to jailbreak space-time.
[02:20:48.440] If Einstein is in force, we all die. If
[02:20:50.960] we go beyond Einstein, some of us will
[02:20:53.040] live and some of us will die.
[02:20:55.480] And what would be the energy that you
[02:20:58.920] would need in order to do this? So that
[02:21:01.880] how do you unlock this?
[02:21:04.360] One is maybe it's not that energetic to
[02:21:07.880] to do these things. Energy is is um
[02:21:10.560] technically
[02:21:12.200] time momentum.
[02:21:14.200] You can talk about momentum in the X
[02:21:15.600] direction, momentum in the Y, momentum
[02:21:18.160] in the Z. Fine. What's momentum in the
[02:21:20.600] time direction?
[02:21:22.120] It has a different name. We don't call
[02:21:23.600] energy time momentum, but that's what it
[02:21:25.520] is.
[02:21:27.080] So first of all, I don't believe that
[02:21:28.520] there's one direction of time. There's
[02:21:30.120] no arrow of time. That's not true.
[02:21:33.320] I believe that time is
[02:21:34.440] multi-dimensional. The only dimension
[02:21:37.040] that has an ordering
[02:21:40.000] is one dimension.
[02:21:42.000] So in other words, if I say to you
[02:21:44.320] um
[02:21:45.080] Joe has two cigars, Eric has none.
[02:21:47.600] Who has more cigars?
[02:21:49.240] Joe.
[02:21:50.560] Okay.
[02:21:51.520] Joe has two cigars, but Eric has three
[02:21:55.080] glasses
[02:21:56.280] and no cigars.
[02:21:58.520] Joe has one glass and two cigars. Who
[02:22:00.480] has more stuff? Well, now it's not clear
[02:22:02.720] because Eric has more glasses than Joe.
[02:22:05.680] But Joe has more cigars. So, in two
[02:22:07.440] dimensions, we no longer can say
[02:22:10.120] this is better than that
[02:22:12.120] for things where you have more of one
[02:22:14.080] and less of another. Okay.
[02:22:17.200] Time is like that.
[02:22:18.960] In one dimension, there's an arrow.
[02:22:20.440] There's an ordering. We call it It's
[02:22:22.680] It's It's you know, like a well-ordered
[02:22:24.600] set or something. In two dimensions, all
[02:22:27.120] bets are off and and two and higher.
[02:22:31.200] The number of dimensions in total is
[02:22:33.480] going to be either five or seven.
[02:22:36.280] And
[02:22:38.400] each of those dimensions has a different
[02:22:40.080] kind of energy.
[02:22:42.760] So, in other words, energy is unique
[02:22:45.880] because there's only one time dimension.
[02:22:47.920] But as soon as
[02:22:49.960] ener- time has multiple dimensions, you
[02:22:52.240] can talk about multiple forms of energy.
[02:22:54.480] Just the way you can talk about momentum
[02:22:56.400] in the X direction, momentum in the Y
[02:22:58.080] direction, or momentum in the Z
[02:22:59.520] direction.
[02:23:02.240] So, in part, what I'm trying to do is to
[02:23:04.560] jailbreak spacetime. That's what I'm
[02:23:06.320] actually doing.
[02:23:08.480] And I'm doing it with zero support, with
[02:23:11.400] no confirmation that this is real
[02:23:13.720] because something is controlling my
[02:23:15.760] entire community
[02:23:17.880] to make this funny haha just like
[02:23:20.000] Forbidden City.
[02:23:21.720] Was Jack Kraper Jack Raper has gone mad.
[02:23:24.320] He thinks that there's a city in New
[02:23:25.640] Mexico where there's a mayor who's a
[02:23:28.040] second Einstein developing a doomsday
[02:23:30.040] weapon. Is that funny?
[02:23:32.440] What a loon that guy. What an idiot.
[02:23:35.160] Haha.
[02:23:37.200] That's what's going on, Joe.
[02:23:39.400] So, how do you think that
[02:23:42.880] technology could be applied to these
[02:23:45.160] ideas in order to create some mode of
[02:23:48.400] travel.
[02:23:51.080] Pinch to zoom, Joe. Right, but how? How
[02:23:53.440] would that be done? So, right now we're
[02:23:55.400] in a four-dimensional world. Call that
[02:23:57.120] flatland. Okay. Imagine that there are
[02:23:59.080] 10 perpendicular dimensions called
[02:24:01.200] symmetric two tensors.
[02:24:04.760] Four of those
[02:24:06.880] are spatial
[02:24:08.720] directions
[02:24:10.200] and six of them temporal
[02:24:12.280] or
[02:24:13.560] four of them are
[02:24:16.040] uh temporal and six of them spatial. I
[02:24:17.800] can't tell you one of those two. Okay.
[02:24:20.360] But they're additionally either four or
[02:24:22.760] six extra time dimensions
[02:24:25.680] or six or four space dimensions.
[02:24:29.720] We have to gain access to break out of
[02:24:32.200] flatland. We live in flatland. We don't
[02:24:34.720] know we live in flatland.
[02:24:37.080] And I know
[02:24:38.400] what that
[02:24:40.320] Technically, the name is fiber
[02:24:41.640] dimension.
[02:24:43.240] What it is, we have to gain access to
[02:24:45.120] it, which is discovering that somebody
[02:24:47.120] gives you a an obsidian rock
[02:24:49.800] that has a property that you've never
[02:24:51.240] seen before called pinch to zoom.
[02:24:54.120] So, I need to make the distance to the
[02:24:55.720] nearest star small
[02:24:58.800] so I can go with reasonable speed.
[02:25:03.320] Or instantaneously.
[02:25:05.040] Mhm, I don't need instantaneously.
[02:25:07.720] I I I if I have something four
[02:25:08.960] light-years away and I can make it 100
[02:25:10.520] ft away, I can walk 100 ft
[02:25:13.240] easily enough.
[02:25:14.840] You know, I can I can I can I can I can
[02:25:15.800] I can I can I can push something. Right.
[02:25:17.960] Okay.
[02:25:18.160] >> So, the idea is if I can gain access to
[02:25:19.680] the fiber
[02:25:22.080] the distance becomes relatively
[02:25:24.000] immaterial.
[02:25:25.400] So, if you think that these physicists
[02:25:27.120] are working on this and all all these
[02:25:28.560] >> No, I didn't say that I think
[02:25:29.640] >> Okay. I'm saying if anybody is working
[02:25:32.880] on that.
[02:25:33.080] >> Either two One of two things is
[02:25:34.280] happening. Either we have become the
[02:25:36.280] stupidest nation on Earth destroying our
[02:25:38.680] own ability to do physics.
[02:25:41.040] We gave away the store. We're morons.
[02:25:43.800] That's possible.
[02:25:45.240] Or
[02:25:46.280] we're doing it in private.
[02:25:48.720] And you feel like it's possible to hide
[02:25:50.560] all this from the general public?
[02:25:52.320] >> point is you're not going to hide it.
[02:25:53.680] They No, no, no. The same way they did
[02:25:55.240] it before would be spoiled by
[02:25:56.800] satellites.
[02:25:59.440] Right now, if you tried to do Los
[02:26:00.720] Alamos, you couldn't do it because of
[02:26:03.200] the satellites.
[02:26:04.160] >> Right. So, it has to be hidden in
[02:26:06.800] plain sight.
[02:26:08.840] It has to look like something that
[02:26:10.360] isn't.
[02:26:12.440] So, if you asked me
[02:26:14.080] Let's imagine you asked me a different
[02:26:15.400] question. Let's imagine you asked me,
[02:26:17.080] "Eric,
[02:26:18.400] nobody's willing to give you money.
[02:26:19.720] Nobody's willing to employ you. Nobody's
[02:26:21.160] willing to have you speak at their
[02:26:22.360] seminar. You despite the fact you have
[02:26:24.160] complete blue chip credibility.
[02:26:28.120] How would you
[02:26:29.800] how would you organize a secret team
[02:26:32.600] to get control of our adversaries, the
[02:26:34.920] world, and the
[02:26:36.240] ability to traverse the cosmos?
[02:26:38.840] I sure sure as [ __ ] wouldn't build a
[02:26:40.520] chemical rocket company. That's dumb.
[02:26:43.720] But, I do it as cover.
[02:26:46.800] And I sure as [ __ ] wouldn't do things in
[02:26:48.400] an open university department.
[02:26:51.560] Here's what I'd do.
[02:26:53.280] I'd build an organization
[02:26:55.880] that could rationalize billions passing
[02:26:58.320] through it with almost no footprint.
[02:27:00.880] Because what I really need is
[02:27:01.840] whiteboards and coffee and smart people
[02:27:06.120] and a secure campus and a story.
[02:27:08.960] That's all I need.
[02:27:11.840] God, wouldn't you love to have access to
[02:27:13.360] what they're doing? No, cuz I'm going to
[02:27:15.280] do it myself. How you going to do that?
[02:27:17.760] Cuz I know I know really smart people,
[02:27:20.440] Joe.
[02:27:21.720] Don't you need like insane amounts of
[02:27:22.920] money and a laboratory somewhere?
[02:27:24.080] >> You know,
[02:27:24.880] it's funny. Like Sam Altman is racing,
[02:27:27.040] Dario Amodei is racing, uh Elon Musk for
[02:27:30.560] superintelligence.
[02:27:32.240] So
[02:27:33.960] I ask myself, if you could have premium
[02:27:36.040] subscriptions to Grok, Gemini, xAI,
[02:27:42.240] um
[02:27:43.280] Sorry.
[02:27:44.200] Uh Grok, Gemini,
[02:27:46.600] Claude,
[02:27:48.440] all of them. Mhm. Or you could have
[02:27:50.120] Edward Frenkel's home phone number,
[02:27:52.040] which would you choose? I'd choose Ed
[02:27:53.480] Frenkel's home phone number.
[02:27:57.880] So, I get to call Ed Frenkel whenever I
[02:27:59.400] want to.
[02:28:01.320] That's smart.
[02:28:03.760] Look, there there are people that you
[02:28:05.080] don't even know about
[02:28:07.720] who are just terrifyingly smart, who
[02:28:13.240] Allow me to assemble that team.
[02:28:15.800] That's what, you know, I Is that
[02:28:17.080] literally what you're trying to do? Oh,
[02:28:18.920] yeah. And how are you doing it?
[02:28:21.200] I don't know. I stayed with Ed for 5
[02:28:23.360] days in Berkeley.
[02:28:25.560] I got him and
[02:28:27.760] another colleague
[02:28:30.400] who's also terrifying. I'm using
[02:28:32.480] Soviets, Joe. Ex-Soviets. Okay.
[02:28:35.560] >> guys haven't haven't lost the magic.
[02:28:38.800] And uh
[02:28:40.960] you know, I had Frenkel and a guy named
[02:28:43.240] Misha Kapranov come down
[02:28:46.000] for 5 days to kick the [ __ ] out of my
[02:28:47.800] theory.
[02:28:49.760] It was crazy. Absolutely crazy. We're
[02:28:51.640] drinking vodka at like 10:00 a.m.
[02:28:54.080] having insane meals,
[02:28:58.800] and just working our asses off the way
[02:29:00.720] we're supposed to.
[02:29:04.080] How did it go? Amazing.
[02:29:07.000] What did they think about your theory?
[02:29:09.280] So
[02:29:12.080] far, Okay. So,
[02:29:14.680] in other words, the story
[02:29:17.000] Can we just pull up
[02:29:19.640] I just want to do this for my own
[02:29:21.800] reasons. Can we pull up the lead the
[02:29:23.760] pinned tweet on my Twitter profile,
[02:29:25.840] which by the way, thank you for
[02:29:26.880] retweeting?
[02:29:28.320] No problem. Yeah.
[02:29:29.760] Love you. Love you, too. What is it?
[02:29:32.720] Let's go to it real quick.
[02:29:34.913] >> [snorts]
[02:29:37.280] >> So,
[02:29:38.200] first of all, I want to show off the
[02:29:39.480] header.
[02:29:40.520] Can we go up to the top of the header
[02:29:41.840] before we do that?
[02:29:45.800] Those
[02:29:47.040] two
[02:29:48.360] formulas,
[02:29:50.240] the bottom one says CFJ.
[02:29:54.120] C is Sean Carroll.
[02:29:57.560] The middle F is uh Fields, and J is
[02:30:02.520] Roman Jackiw, a professor at MIT.
[02:30:06.600] Sean Carroll's second most um cited
[02:30:09.440] paper is has this as its action or
[02:30:12.800] Lagrangian.
[02:30:15.200] Right above that is my action or
[02:30:17.520] Lagrangian.
[02:30:19.440] And what you see all those zeros are
[02:30:21.680] things that Sean Carroll doesn't know
[02:30:23.160] how to handle.
[02:30:24.880] And that thing where you see a P, you
[02:30:27.240] see star parentheses P on the bottom
[02:30:29.440] line, not the bottom second from the
[02:30:31.320] bottom,
[02:30:32.640] is Sean's relativity-violating
[02:30:35.840] uh hack.
[02:30:37.120] Sean Carroll did not disclose
[02:30:40.000] that geometric unity
[02:30:42.080] is a direct competitor to his most cited
[02:30:45.360] work. So, now if we can roll the clip,
[02:30:47.400] it'll make more sense as to what's going
[02:30:49.360] on.
[02:30:54.560] And let's blow that thing up to full
[02:30:56.360] screen.
[02:30:57.200] >> of the situation
[02:30:59.000] uh is nearly constant for reasons that
[02:31:01.600] completely elude me.
[02:31:04.240] Sean?
[02:31:05.680] The good news is I have read Eric's
[02:31:07.080] paper. Here it is. I actually have it
[02:31:08.680] here, right here. First thing you got to
[02:31:10.920] do is make sure that your theory makes
[02:31:13.440] contact with modern physics as it is
[02:31:15.960] understood. If you have a new paper out,
[02:31:18.200] physicists are going to look at it.
[02:31:19.440] They're going to look for, you know,
[02:31:20.880] where's the Lagrangian?
[02:31:23.645] >> [music]
[02:31:26.320] >> So, this is for people that are just
[02:31:28.400] listening, this is showing that you have
[02:31:31.120] Lagrangians in your
[02:31:34.000] these equations.
[02:31:35.040] >> Carroll lying. Right.
[02:31:38.600] Did you
[02:31:40.280] Did you their interactions are in there
[02:31:42.040] as well, but you call did you call him
[02:31:43.840] out on this on the show? I couldn't
[02:31:45.840] believe that he'd do this. So, you
[02:31:47.640] didn't say anything?
[02:31:49.760] >> Proton stability that's in there as
[02:31:51.080] well. So, essentially he's lying to make
[02:31:54.520] it seem like your theory doesn't work
[02:31:56.440] when you have all the things that you're
[02:31:57.680] saying your theory doesn't have.
[02:31:58.720] >> of two lies. We don't know which lie.
[02:32:00.480] Okay. There's a lie that says
[02:32:04.040] uh I read your paper.
[02:32:06.360] So, he didn't
[02:32:06.760] >> I'm willing to
[02:32:08.160] entertain the fact that he's lying that
[02:32:09.480] he read my paper. Okay. And I'm willing
[02:32:11.520] to
[02:32:12.840] entertain the fact that he's lying
[02:32:14.880] that
[02:32:15.960] he read my paper and he's going to deny
[02:32:17.440] that these things are in there. But,
[02:32:18.960] he's what I don't know which lie he's
[02:32:20.680] telling. Right. One of them's a lie. One
[02:32:22.320] of them's a lie.
[02:32:22.640] >> Either he lied saying he read your paper
[02:32:24.480] or he lied saying he definitely lied
[02:32:26.000] saying those things aren't in there cuz
[02:32:27.080] he did say those things aren't in there.
[02:32:28.280] That's a lie. Right. He just says
[02:32:29.520] there's none of that. None of that. None
[02:32:30.600] of that. Okay. So, my claim is
[02:32:32.560] >> respond like right there?
[02:32:35.600] Joe, what am I
[02:32:36.600] just Let's just for one more second.
[02:32:41.600] I'm in a world that makes absolutely no
[02:32:43.480] sense and I don't want to disappear.
[02:32:46.000] I'm not suicidal.
[02:32:48.200] I have been the major competitor of
[02:32:50.240] string theory for 42 years. I'm not a
[02:32:52.880] podcaster. I'm not a guest. I'm not an
[02:32:55.240] entertainer.
[02:32:58.680] What I really do for a living
[02:33:01.960] I'm not paid to do.
[02:33:04.000] Okay, I understand that. When he's
[02:33:05.640] saying
[02:33:06.400] >> know what to do. You just didn't know
[02:33:08.080] what to do in the moment.
[02:33:08.640] >> I mean, what do I want? Do I want a
[02:33:09.840] legal battle? Right. I've got a defense
[02:33:12.400] contractor. I'm one of the world's
[02:33:14.320] largest companies is a defense
[02:33:16.000] contractor which is has a campaign
[02:33:18.440] against me for reasons I don't
[02:33:19.760] understand.
[02:33:21.280] Just have have no clue
[02:33:23.840] why anyone would say you don't have a
[02:33:25.960] Lagrangian. And so he's
[02:33:28.360] attached to a defense contractor?
[02:33:30.000] >> No, no, no, but there's a there's a
[02:33:33.680] By virtue of the fact that the
[02:33:35.000] conspiracy against me, and I I literally
[02:33:37.720] mean technically a conspiracy, is
[02:33:40.280] organized through these Discord servers.
[02:33:43.760] And
[02:33:45.560] there's an engineer
[02:33:47.200] at Google who for example can't a paper
[02:33:51.000] against me that lies about what it is
[02:33:53.120] that I'm up to.
[02:33:54.560] Um published on the archive, which is
[02:33:57.320] where physicists share their stuff.
[02:33:59.360] So the the engineer will say, "How how
[02:34:01.320] about you do a talk at Google, Sabine
[02:34:03.600] Hossenfelder?" And Sabine Hossenfelder
[02:34:05.520] will come to Google
[02:34:08.640] and she'll be given her thing if if he
[02:34:12.320] will be allowed to post an anti-Eric
[02:34:15.360] screed or paper or whatever you want to
[02:34:16.880] call it against me.
[02:34:18.600] So what I'm trying to say is I'm acting
[02:34:20.080] as Jack Raper in some way. Okay. I'm
[02:34:22.680] doing stuff and saying stuff like
[02:34:25.200] Epstein is an is a construct. Mhm. Well,
[02:34:28.600] okay, now you can say that, but you
[02:34:30.000] couldn't say that when I started saying
[02:34:31.600] it.
[02:34:33.040] You can't say Ed Witten is driving
[02:34:34.920] theoretical physics off of a cliff. You
[02:34:37.000] can't say
[02:34:38.400] you know, the reason that uh
[02:34:41.680] we have the particles that we do has it
[02:34:43.920] that there's a 10-dimensional fiber in a
[02:34:45.760] fiber bundle above space-time that isn't
[02:34:47.640] acknowledged. For some reason the things
[02:34:50.120] that we're talking about on this show
[02:34:52.120] are dangerous.
[02:34:55.280] We're having dangerous conversations,
[02:34:57.000] Joe. That's what JRE does.
[02:35:00.400] And sometimes you you go all the way and
[02:35:01.880] sometimes you puss out. But like this is
[02:35:04.000] a dangerous place because they can't
[02:35:05.920] tell you what to do. And that's why they
[02:35:08.360] put you in like a different color on the
[02:35:10.400] screen during COVID
[02:35:12.400] cuz you went against the narrative.
[02:35:14.960] The narrative was go get vaccinated.
[02:35:18.000] The narrative was if you think that
[02:35:19.360] COVID came from anything
[02:35:21.120] other than a wet market, you're a
[02:35:22.400] racist.
[02:35:23.840] Every time you've gone up against the
[02:35:25.360] narrative, they try to destroy you.
[02:35:28.400] You're still here?
[02:35:29.680] But you've been badly badly bruised at
[02:35:31.800] various times.
[02:35:35.320] You are a danger to the narrative as I
[02:35:37.800] am a danger to the narrative. That's one
[02:35:39.480] of the reasons why this is like I don't
[02:35:40.880] know what is this? My eighth, sixth,
[02:35:42.920] some large number of appearances. We are
[02:35:45.280] scary to the narrative and the narrative
[02:35:47.200] can no longer be held together.
[02:35:49.600] I want to bring you back to the
[02:35:50.680] technology that's involved.
[02:35:52.920] So, when we're talking about
[02:35:56.760] this
[02:35:58.000] program that may or may not exist.
[02:36:00.360] >> Right. And when we're talking about
[02:36:03.240] UAPs
[02:36:04.440] >> Yeah. for lack of a better term. Do you
[02:36:06.320] think that these are connected? And do
[02:36:07.800] you think that Yes. So, one one of the
[02:36:10.600] things that I've suspected and many I'm
[02:36:12.960] not the only one, many people suspected
[02:36:14.960] this. It's very odd that a lot of these
[02:36:17.720] sightings that these
[02:36:19.560] Air Force pilots and Navy pilots that
[02:36:21.560] they find they're over and near military
[02:36:25.200] bases. That's right. Which is where you
[02:36:27.160] would practice.
[02:36:28.800] Or restricted airspace, which is where
[02:36:30.360] you'd use your stuff.
[02:36:32.040] And when they see these things
[02:36:34.520] and they have these experiences with
[02:36:35.880] these things
[02:36:37.280] the people that they report them to
[02:36:38.840] don't seem shocked.
[02:36:41.160] Right. Yeah. I mean, this is um with
[02:36:43.760] Ryan Graves' experience. This is what
[02:36:46.440] Commander David Fravor experienced that
[02:36:49.040] they tell these people about these
[02:36:50.760] things and no one is like, "What the
[02:36:53.080] [ __ ] are you talking about?"
[02:36:54.920] Right, because they know. Because this
[02:36:57.760] might be ours.
[02:36:59.960] So, some of this is ours. Okay. Some of
[02:37:02.400] this is foreign nations and some of this
[02:37:04.200] is
[02:37:04.920] is not understood. That's what I
[02:37:06.360] believe. Okay.
[02:37:08.440] So, some of these things they're think
[02:37:10.880] they're seeing is a part of some
[02:37:12.920] undisclosed program. I believe that for
[02:37:15.160] example some of this is not craft
[02:37:17.920] but the ability to create the illusion
[02:37:20.320] of craft.
[02:37:22.600] Okay. Some of this I believe is craft.
[02:37:27.560] So the ability to create like a
[02:37:29.240] hologram?
[02:37:31.200] I don't know.
[02:37:32.560] Like a hall
[02:37:33.840] like yeah.
[02:37:34.760] >> projected plasma.
[02:37:35.760] >> That's right. Okay. Some Which we know
[02:37:37.600] they can do. Which we've seen them we we
[02:37:39.880] showed the videos.
[02:37:40.640] >> we've seen limited versions of this.
[02:37:43.120] Imagine that those things scale up.
[02:37:45.040] Okay. Okay.
[02:37:49.400] If there were no aliens or craft
[02:37:54.520] I would want to create a program
[02:37:57.160] if I was in the it disinformation
[02:37:59.520] business. I would want to create one of
[02:38:01.200] these things.
[02:38:02.520] Right? Because there's a god-shaped hole
[02:38:04.280] in all of our souls and minds.
[02:38:07.600] And so aliens and spacecraft fill that
[02:38:10.080] hole. Right. So there's like a god for
[02:38:11.760] atheists.
[02:38:12.400] >> Yeah. Yeah. It's god for atheists.
[02:38:15.400] So first of all
[02:38:16.960] I would think that we were incompetent
[02:38:18.640] if we didn't have something that created
[02:38:20.840] a UFO ghost stories.
[02:38:23.000] Why wouldn't you use that?
[02:38:26.560] I also believe that there are foreign
[02:38:28.400] nations that may have leapfrogged us.
[02:38:32.680] You know clearly we saw that where we
[02:38:33.920] invested in aircraft carriers and other
[02:38:35.480] people invested in drones and they
[02:38:37.000] realized that this was about economic
[02:38:38.680] warfare. Cost too much to shoot down
[02:38:41.080] cheap stuff to make.
[02:38:44.600] So we're in the process of having our
[02:38:46.320] Suez moment if you will
[02:38:49.120] in Iran if we're not careful.
[02:38:52.160] Where it is revealed that our
[02:38:54.680] lead in aircraft carrier groups is not
[02:38:56.880] what we thought it was.
[02:38:58.960] Mhm.
[02:39:00.360] So we can get to Iran in a second if you
[02:39:01.840] like but what I believe is that
[02:39:05.280] um we've been dumb.
[02:39:08.080] We've been extremely stupid since the
[02:39:10.280] end of the Cold War. Bill Clinton and
[02:39:12.040] Dick Morris ushered in an era of
[02:39:14.000] stupidity that I cannot even believe is
[02:39:17.160] so antithetical to my notion of my
[02:39:19.680] belonging to the smartest nation on
[02:39:21.560] Earth.
[02:39:23.040] Um,
[02:39:24.600] that we've just basically gutted our
[02:39:26.400] smart people. The smart people don't
[02:39:27.800] even know each other. Now, what is going
[02:39:29.880] on with the technology and what we're
[02:39:31.720] seeing,
[02:39:33.520] we've lost control of some airspace.
[02:39:35.400] That's what I believe is I don't know
[02:39:37.480] that to be true, but I believe in with
[02:39:39.080] very high probability.
[02:39:40.000] >> think that's what San Antonio is about?
[02:39:42.600] San Antonio? No, I'm sorry. El Paso.
[02:39:45.320] >> Yeah, I I I believe that El Paso is not
[02:39:47.520] about cartel drones. That's true. Okay.
[02:39:49.960] >> that's not to say that there isn't a
[02:39:51.120] cartel drone here or there,
[02:39:53.080] but I don't think we shut down airspace
[02:39:55.800] in El Paso to deal with cartel drones.
[02:39:58.280] Right. So,
[02:40:00.520] what were the experiences that people
[02:40:03.120] were were reporting and like like what
[02:40:06.000] like what do you know about what
[02:40:07.960] happened in El Paso?
[02:40:09.040] >> Well, there's what I know,
[02:40:11.240] which is all second hand.
[02:40:13.960] So, what I know what I can say I know
[02:40:15.640] first hand is the reporting of various
[02:40:17.480] things by various people, but I probably
[02:40:19.720] had five plus conversations about White
[02:40:22.000] Sands.
[02:40:23.680] People who don't know each other not
[02:40:25.640] connected. So, whoever is supposed to be
[02:40:27.720] keeping White Sands a secret failed.
[02:40:30.920] Okay, so
[02:40:32.840] I believe that White Sands
[02:40:35.360] has an infestation problem with stuff
[02:40:38.600] that is
[02:40:40.560] either not ours
[02:40:42.640] or is being blue team red teamed
[02:40:45.920] ours and not told to our people.
[02:40:49.720] How would you deal with the following
[02:40:51.080] puzzle? So, maybe we're putting our own
[02:40:53.360] our own one group is putting our drones
[02:40:55.960] or something in the air.
[02:40:57.080] >> Right. And another group is being told,
[02:40:59.960] how would you deal with this problem? We
[02:41:01.360] we we we've lost control of our
[02:41:02.840] airspace, but something is going on in
[02:41:04.880] New Mexico.
[02:41:06.800] What was the descriptions
[02:41:08.800] of these drones? What does it say here?
[02:41:11.240] Airspace at the center of the brief, but
[02:41:12.640] highly publicized incident. February 11,
[02:41:15.120] 2026, FAA abruptly announced 10-day
[02:41:18.240] shutdown of the airspace over El Paso
[02:41:20.400] International Airport. The restriction
[02:41:21.920] was lifted after just a few hours.
[02:41:24.240] Pentagon anti-drone testing. The
[02:41:25.920] Pentagon was testing high-energy laser
[02:41:28.480] counter-drone technology out of the
[02:41:30.320] nearby Fort Bliss military base. The FAA
[02:41:32.960] grounded commercial flights out of an
[02:41:34.960] abundance of caution because the
[02:41:36.920] unannounced testing. Cartel drone
[02:41:39.120] activity. Officials from the Trump
[02:41:40.920] administration cited incursions from
[02:41:42.520] Mexican drug cartel drones breaching US
[02:41:44.560] airspace as the primary reason for the
[02:41:46.560] defense systems that the defense the
[02:41:48.800] defense systems were deployed in the
[02:41:50.520] first place. Lack of communication.
[02:41:53.040] White House officials later noted that
[02:41:54.720] the FAA administrator implemented the
[02:41:56.640] surprise flight ban without notifying
[02:41:58.520] the Pentagon, Department of Homeland
[02:42:00.360] Security, or officials.
[02:42:02.480] That seems crazy. It's This story
[02:42:04.880] doesn't hang together.
[02:42:05.800] >> That part doesn't hang together at all.
[02:42:07.000] >> Well, that's the thing.
[02:42:08.172] >> [clears throat]
[02:42:08.560] >> administrator implemented a flight ban
[02:42:11.120] without notifying the Pentagon, the
[02:42:13.080] Department of Homeland Security, or the
[02:42:14.760] White House officials? That doesn't even
[02:42:16.200] seem legal.
[02:42:17.960] Joe, but I don't know.
[02:42:23.200] You and I both have at least 105 IQs.
[02:42:26.400] These are like 65 IQ stories.
[02:42:30.240] Yeah. They Well,
[02:42:32.240] the Mexican drone cartel one seems like
[02:42:34.360] a dopey narrative. But maybe there are
[02:42:36.280] actually Mexican drone car drones. I'm
[02:42:39.440] sure the cartels have drones.
[02:42:41.080] >> cartels have drones, and we're going to
[02:42:42.360] use the fact that New that El Paso is
[02:42:44.760] close to White Sands.
[02:42:45.600] >> Right. But what did What was the
[02:42:47.480] reported drone activity? Do you know
[02:42:49.440] anything about it? Like what what
[02:42:50.960] supposedly Yeah. Not going to say. Ooh.
[02:42:54.080] No.
[02:42:54.400] >> Mysterious.
[02:42:55.720] Hardly being mysterious. I'm saying as
[02:42:57.400] much as I can. I understand.
[02:42:59.120] >> the thing.
[02:42:59.680] >> around. Okay.
[02:43:01.200] But I mean I'd like to know like what
[02:43:03.680] Right, but I'm
[02:43:04.680] >> Tell me later.
[02:43:05.720] No. [ __ ] No, it's not like that.
[02:43:09.720] Look.
[02:43:11.053] >> [laughter]
[02:43:12.040] >> Oh, [ __ ] you both.
[02:43:15.120] Let's play that awesome music again.
[02:43:16.680] There's a video from the AP put out just
[02:43:20.000] 4 days ago that says there is a cartel
[02:43:22.600] attacking lots of people. Well, I'm sure
[02:43:24.560] there's cartel What I'm trying to say is
[02:43:26.520] No, no, I know, I know, I know. Every
[02:43:28.640] single person who knows how to keep a
[02:43:30.120] secret knows how to use the truth to
[02:43:31.680] hide a lie. Right, of course. So what
[02:43:33.800] And [clears throat] and that's always
[02:43:35.040] been done.
[02:43:35.360] >> So the the thing that I'm doing is I am
[02:43:38.320] I am an Amer- I am
[02:43:40.000] I am so grateful to this country. I love
[02:43:42.520] my country.
[02:43:44.480] I am going to maintain the ability
[02:43:46.960] till my dying day to help my country and
[02:43:49.960] advise my country.
[02:43:51.800] My country is a [ __ ]
[02:43:54.640] I don't know why she's acting this way.
[02:43:56.240] I don't know why she's been stupid since
[02:43:57.920] 1992.
[02:44:01.240] Right?
[02:44:02.280] But she's been acting like a [ __ ] since
[02:44:04.280] the Clinton administration.
[02:44:08.440] We're bad at being America and I I can't
[02:44:11.760] stand it. So I'm going to with I would
[02:44:14.200] love to tell you everything I know. I
[02:44:15.920] would love to penalize people for being
[02:44:19.200] bad at their jobs.
[02:44:21.880] But I'm going to retain the ability to
[02:44:23.640] advise my government till my dying day.
[02:44:25.880] And so I'm not going to say what I know.
[02:44:27.680] Okay. It says this is from New York
[02:44:29.800] Times inside the debacle that led to the
[02:44:32.040] closure of El Paso's airspace FAA citing
[02:44:34.840] grave risk of fatalities from a new
[02:44:37.560] technology being used on the Mexican
[02:44:39.560] border got caught in a stalemate with
[02:44:41.800] the Pentagon which deemed the weapon
[02:44:43.600] necessary.
[02:44:45.880] Whatever. Okay, who knows?
[02:44:47.560] >> [ __ ]
[02:44:48.720] >> stories as you can spin, right? Throw
[02:44:50.480] them all out there, right? Throw a bunch
[02:44:51.920] of them.
[02:44:52.240] >> Look, our press was a largely set up in
[02:44:54.520] World War II to go to war.
[02:44:57.600] And it's been that way ever since.
[02:45:00.160] And during the Walter Cronkite era and
[02:45:01.920] the Eric Sevareids and all that kind of
[02:45:03.520] stuff that nobody really remembers,
[02:45:07.440] we had a measure of freedom to talk
[02:45:10.480] about things. And it got too much, and
[02:45:12.440] in the middle of the 1970s, we had the
[02:45:14.080] Church and and Pike Committee hearings,
[02:45:17.200] and we freaked out.
[02:45:18.960] We found out who we really were.
[02:45:21.600] We are both the super naive squeaky
[02:45:23.520] clean state
[02:45:25.160] and the baddest of the bad MFs.
[02:45:28.800] We're both things. We're a hybrid.
[02:45:32.040] We're extremely Machiavellian. We're
[02:45:34.200] extremely naive. There's no way of
[02:45:36.640] stopping that being what we are.
[02:45:39.400] So, you think that it's very possible
[02:45:42.640] that there's a foreign nation that has
[02:45:46.640] some sort of technology that can invade
[02:45:48.840] our airspace at will. And that's what
[02:45:50.840] the shutdown was. I believe that
[02:45:52.240] somebody may have leapfrogged us as they
[02:45:55.000] have leapfrogged us in drone technology.
[02:45:59.560] So, then they have leapfrogged us in
[02:46:00.920] some
[02:46:02.240] propulsion technology.
[02:46:04.040] >> that there's a nation
[02:46:06.240] in Asia,
[02:46:08.280] Mhm. China,
[02:46:09.720] which
[02:46:10.960] puts on amazing drone shows and buys up
[02:46:13.760] our academics who aren't being paid
[02:46:16.400] cuz we're sitting around bitching, "What
[02:46:17.760] have you What have you technical people
[02:46:19.520] done for us?
[02:46:20.920] Why do you deserve to be paid from
[02:46:23.320] taxpayer dollars?" And the answer is,
[02:46:25.320] "Oh, shut the [ __ ] up."
[02:46:27.640] We created your economy, you stupid
[02:46:30.200] [ __ ]
[02:46:32.360] We're the baddest of the bad. We are the
[02:46:34.400] source of your wealth and your strength,
[02:46:36.720] and you come to us bitching about your
[02:46:38.600] taxpayer dollars?
[02:46:40.760] You deserve to lose to China, you little
[02:46:43.840] Mhm.
[02:46:45.760] I I have no words for the also the new
[02:46:48.360] crop of tech billionaires who are bitten
[02:46:50.440] by COVID.
[02:46:52.840] What do you mean
[02:46:54.160] Well, they think that Anthony Fauci was
[02:46:55.760] a scientist and so they they believed in
[02:46:57.880] science before Fauci and now they don't
[02:46:59.560] believe in science.
[02:47:03.580] >> [sighs and gasps]
[02:47:04.000] >> I don't understand what you're saying.
[02:47:05.080] >> my god. I don't I literally don't
[02:47:06.880] understand what you're saying.
[02:47:07.600] >> All right. Silicon Valley had a huge
[02:47:09.560] about-face
[02:47:12.040] when they figured out that Fauci was
[02:47:14.400] full of [ __ ]
[02:47:16.680] A lot of them bankrolled our
[02:47:18.000] universities.
[02:47:19.520] They supported science. They were
[02:47:20.840] Democrats.
[02:47:22.560] And then somehow COVID happened.
[02:47:25.120] And because they had this childlike
[02:47:26.840] belief in universities, science, and the
[02:47:28.880] Democratic Party, they ran to the
[02:47:31.080] Republican Party
[02:47:33.160] like children.
[02:47:36.000] Not understanding
[02:47:38.400] that
[02:47:40.480] Anthony Fauci was not a scientist. COVID
[02:47:43.200] is a giant lie.
[02:47:46.840] Collins and Fauci and Ralph Baric and
[02:47:49.360] Peter Daszak are menaces
[02:47:52.160] to the credit of science of science.
[02:47:55.080] The credit rating of science went into
[02:47:56.480] the toilet with Silicon Valley. And a
[02:47:58.280] new a new idea was born,
[02:48:00.640] which is that the engineer is
[02:48:01.960] everything. The scientist is nothing.
[02:48:06.240] Everything should be a a for-profit, not
[02:48:08.120] a nonprofit.
[02:48:10.120] If artificial intelligence should
[02:48:11.680] replace our best people.
[02:48:15.080] I mean
[02:48:17.200] the
[02:48:17.840] This is the spell that
[02:48:19.760] many of our
[02:48:22.480] Like I I would like to think that I
[02:48:23.800] count Marc Andreessen, Peter Thiel as
[02:48:25.960] friends. Sam Altman is a friend.
[02:48:30.640] I don't know what happened to all of
[02:48:32.400] these people.
[02:48:34.520] They're just wrong.
[02:48:36.120] And they're rich. And somehow we like
[02:48:38.120] our public intellectuals became our
[02:48:40.200] billionaires.
[02:48:41.640] What does Naval say? What does Mark say?
[02:48:44.160] What does Elon say?
[02:48:46.280] Everybody who's talking their book is
[02:48:47.800] now our our public intellectuals.
[02:48:51.240] And quite honestly, they're all
[02:48:53.000] brilliant.
[02:48:55.000] But they're all highly motivated.
[02:48:58.040] Mhm.
[02:49:00.920] That's fact. Yeah.
[02:49:03.760] But
[02:49:04.880] where are our scientists? Where are our
[02:49:06.360] intellectuals? Where are our people who
[02:49:08.280] care more about
[02:49:10.640] How do I say this?
[02:49:12.520] Glory
[02:49:15.200] and immortality rather than private jet
[02:49:18.800] travel.
[02:49:22.760] You could not give get me
[02:49:25.000] to give up my claim on immortality for
[02:49:27.920] private jet travel.
[02:49:30.360] I don't understand the fascination with
[02:49:32.280] private jets.
[02:49:34.600] They're cool.
[02:49:35.840] Mildly.
[02:49:40.080] Well, it's not just private jets. Well,
[02:49:41.920] what is it?
[02:49:44.200] I think they attach
[02:49:46.840] monetary gain
[02:49:48.760] to
[02:49:49.960] uh
[02:49:50.720] success.
[02:49:52.520] And above and beyond needs. So, it
[02:49:55.920] becomes a a way of measuring success.
[02:49:59.800] They look at numbers above and beyond
[02:50:02.040] everything else. My craziest brilliant
[02:50:04.560] friend who's completely insane is a guy
[02:50:07.040] named Michael Vassar.
[02:50:09.680] Michael Vassar had a made a point to me
[02:50:11.680] as he often does, which is really
[02:50:13.280] dangerous. And he said, "When did the
[02:50:16.240] world's smartest people
[02:50:18.600] stop caring about their own game and
[02:50:22.040] their own prizes and start focusing on
[02:50:25.080] the prizes of the people pursuing wealth
[02:50:28.360] and status?"
[02:50:31.160] And he said, "Somehow when scientists
[02:50:33.160] care about McLarens and Lamborghinis,
[02:50:36.120] something terrible has happened.
[02:50:38.760] And
[02:50:39.640] Boy, has that
[02:50:41.480] like a splinter in my mind turning over.
[02:50:43.480] I can't get rid of it. He's right.
[02:50:47.240] He's just right.
[02:50:49.000] By the way, this is a guy who
[02:50:50.840] also told me that Dario Amadei was like
[02:50:52.920] a really important person I needed to
[02:50:54.440] pay attention to him when I He was just
[02:50:56.480] some guy that I knew.
[02:50:58.600] Um
[02:51:00.120] Vassar's point is
[02:51:03.320] the scientists stop having their own
[02:51:05.440] game with their own prizes and so
[02:51:07.160] they've started caring about things that
[02:51:08.880] they should be completely ignoring.
[02:51:11.240] I don't have a McLaren and I couldn't
[02:51:13.120] care less.
[02:51:15.680] I do care about immortality. I do care
[02:51:17.480] about recognition. I do care about my
[02:51:19.080] name being removed from things that I've
[02:51:21.280] done.
[02:51:22.920] And other people's, you know,
[02:51:24.320] cherry-topping going on top of it.
[02:51:27.480] Quite honestly, we're a different game.
[02:51:29.400] We're a different species.
[02:51:31.480] There's a You know that that song uh One
[02:51:33.840] Night in Bangkok?
[02:51:34.840] >> Mhm.
[02:51:35.680] It came from a musical about chess.
[02:51:39.720] And he says in the lyrics to that song,
[02:51:42.320] which we don't remember,
[02:51:44.040] he says uh
[02:51:46.080] I'd have, you know, something like I'd
[02:51:47.200] have you over, I would invite you, but
[02:51:48.640] the queens we use would not excite you.
[02:51:50.960] So, you can go back to your massage
[02:51:52.400] parlors in Bangkok. The whole point is
[02:51:54.240] that the chess world
[02:51:56.200] doesn't care
[02:51:57.680] about who got laid.
[02:52:00.160] Chess world cares about the evergreen
[02:52:02.560] game, the immortal game. What did
[02:52:04.200] Fischer do to Spassky? What
[02:52:06.120] What's going on with Magnus Carlsen?
[02:52:09.080] Somehow the science world stopped caring
[02:52:11.000] about our own stuff.
[02:52:13.280] And
[02:52:15.280] we've got to make sure that the public
[02:52:17.840] intellectuals are not dominated by
[02:52:20.040] billionaires. As much as I love these
[02:52:22.200] guys,
[02:52:23.240] they're my friends.
[02:52:24.040] >> you're right. Yeah, they're smart as
[02:52:25.680] hell. They wouldn't have gotten to be
[02:52:26.720] billionaires otherwise, but they're
[02:52:28.520] always talking their book.
[02:52:31.400] Always.
[02:52:33.240] Look at, you know, people are like
[02:52:34.600] famous libertarians and they become
[02:52:37.200] surveillance people. You know, they they
[02:52:39.520] they
[02:52:41.320] Bill Gates, you know, what is he just
[02:52:43.440] buying farmland for?
[02:52:45.480] Right. To be He wants to make sure that
[02:52:47.280] we have a steady supply of of food of
[02:52:50.080] something.
[02:52:51.360] Um we've got to stop the addiction to
[02:52:53.440] billionaires as the only people we trust
[02:52:55.480] because at least they're rich.
[02:52:59.360] Let's end it there.
[02:53:00.560] Good. I got to wrap this up, but I
[02:53:01.880] appreciate you very much. This is very
[02:53:03.720] good. Yeah? Yeah, it was a good one.
[02:53:05.680] >> Great seeing you, Joe. Great seeing you,
[02:53:06.920] too. And I think your the last point is
[02:53:09.800] that should resonate with a lot of
[02:53:11.200] people. It's dead right.
[02:53:13.480] Look forward to seeing you soon, Joe.
[02:53:14.800] Well, maybe we'll go to another planet
[02:53:16.040] together. Love it.
[02:53:17.590] >> [music]
[02:53:17.720] >> Bye, everybody.
[02:53:24.140] >> [music]