Joe Rogan Experience #2314 — Hal Puthoff (May 1, 2025)

• Show: The Joe Rogan Experience #2314; guest Hal Puthoff; ~2h49m
• YouTube: https://youtu.be/Gf_tKn9TaP8
• Extraction: youtube_transcript.py (timestamps), 2026-05-28
• Long-form: SRI remote-viewing program, crash-retrieval/exotic-physics framing. Primary for ../../sources/puthoff-network-physicist.

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[00:00:01.920] Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. The Joe
[00:00:04.480] Rogan Experience. Train by day. Joe
[00:00:07.200] Rogan podcast by night. All day.
[00:00:12.320] All right. All right. Now, hey, what's
[00:00:14.639] happening? Oh, lots happening. Really?
[00:00:17.240] Lot. Thank you so much for being here.
[00:00:19.760] I'm very excited to talk to you. Um,
[00:00:22.080] I've been thinking about nothing but
[00:00:23.760] that since that dinner that we had a few
[00:00:26.080] months ago. Oh, yes. Thinking about it a
[00:00:27.920] lot. Yeah, you told me a lot of crazy
[00:00:30.000] stuff. So, yeah. Well, it just seems
[00:00:32.559] like that that's been my my thing in
[00:00:34.559] life is get involved in the crazy stuff
[00:00:38.000] no matter where it comes from. When did
[00:00:39.600] that start? When did you start getting
[00:00:41.120] involved in the crazy stuff? Well,
[00:00:43.520] actually, I began early on. I was uh,
[00:00:46.399] you know, a ham radio operator as a
[00:00:48.320] teenager and I went to vocational
[00:00:50.559] school. I didn't think I'd ever go to
[00:00:52.640] college or whatever, but I got all
[00:00:54.800] involved in uh learning about uh radio
[00:00:59.280] uh transmission and all that kind of
[00:01:00.960] stuff. So, I finally, okay, I'm going to
[00:01:02.719] go to college and and uh really
[00:01:05.920] concentrate on electrical engineering
[00:01:07.600] and physics and all that kind of
[00:01:09.560] stuff. But the weird stuff actually
[00:01:12.720] began uh kind of by absolute accident.
[00:01:18.320] At the time I was uh involved at uh
[00:01:21.840] Stanford University getting my PhD. Uh I
[00:01:25.040] was just doing cool things. I had I'd
[00:01:27.200] invented a broadly tunable infrared
[00:01:29.520] laser uh one of the first of its kind.
[00:01:32.240] Even got a patent as a graduate student.
[00:01:34.320] Wow. and uh co-authored with my thesis
[00:01:38.560] advisor
[00:01:40.079] uh uh
[00:01:42.200] textbook graduate level textbook
[00:01:44.320] fundamentals of quantum electronics
[00:01:46.399] published in English, French, Russian
[00:01:47.920] and Chinese. So I was I was on a cool
[00:01:50.720] role just doing the normal physics kinds
[00:01:53.200] of things. But interestingly enough,
[00:01:56.880] once I was there writing a graduate
[00:01:59.680] level textbook, I realized, you know,
[00:02:02.240] there's something I don't know. And that
[00:02:04.320] is what about consciousness? What about
[00:02:07.840] living things? I mean, is it still just
[00:02:10.000] atoms and molecules all the way down? We
[00:02:12.000] just don't know about it or are there
[00:02:14.959] some additional fields or whatever? So
[00:02:17.440] it turned out I came across uh
[00:02:21.040] uh some publications by a polygraph
[00:02:24.000] expert who taught polygraph to the CIA
[00:02:26.400] and FBI and so on. And one day on a lark
[00:02:29.599] he connected his polygraph up to his
[00:02:32.280] plants and he saw signals coming out
[00:02:35.519] that looked like what you see out of
[00:02:36.879] people and then he decided to threaten
[00:02:39.200] the plant like he would a person and he
[00:02:41.200] got a big response. Whoa. And so he then
[00:02:44.560] went on to connect up a couple of plants
[00:02:46.640] to polygraphs and he would find that if
[00:02:49.040] he affected one the other one would
[00:02:50.959] respond. So I thought okay well maybe
[00:02:53.040] this is some new fields that we don't
[00:02:55.200] include in our physics. So I came up
[00:02:57.280] with what for me was just a pure physics
[00:02:59.640] experiment. Uh I was going to grow some
[00:03:02.800] algae culture split it up put half of it
[00:03:05.440] at a laser link site far away and zap
[00:03:08.560] the local culture and see if it
[00:03:10.239] responded. and I could measure velocity
[00:03:12.239] propagation so on. So I sent that off to
[00:03:14.720] this polygraph guy, Cle Baxter is his
[00:03:17.879] name. And so he said, "Well, that that'd
[00:03:20.239] be a cool experiment." Well, here's one
[00:03:22.640] of these things where your life takes a
[00:03:24.159] lefthand
[00:03:25.239] turn, totally at random. He goes to a
[00:03:27.920] cocktail party in New York City and
[00:03:30.480] there he runs into Ingo Swan who turned
[00:03:34.000] out to be so-called psychic famous
[00:03:37.120] artist but fellow that did remote
[00:03:41.120] viewing
[00:03:42.440] so-called and so he invited him over to
[00:03:44.799] his uh to his uh lab and said see if he
[00:03:48.480] could affect the plants and so on. While
[00:03:50.480] he was there, he saw my
[00:03:53.599] uh write up about the experiment I
[00:03:56.480] proposed, which for me is just a pure
[00:03:58.239] physics experiment. And so he then wrote
[00:04:01.519] me a letter and said, "Well, if you're
[00:04:04.000] interested in the borderline between
[00:04:05.519] animate and inanimate physics, why deal
[00:04:07.840] with algae culture? They can't tell you
[00:04:09.439] anything. You should be dealing with
[00:04:10.959] somebody like me." Well, I mean, I
[00:04:13.760] couldn't care less about dealing with
[00:04:16.000] quote a psychic or whatever, but
[00:04:18.479] attached to his letter, he had a big uh
[00:04:21.600] report that had been generated at City
[00:04:23.280] College in New York where he' done some
[00:04:25.280] experiments where he would raise and
[00:04:27.520] lower the temperatures of temperature,
[00:04:30.479] sensitive temperature measuring devices
[00:04:32.400] across the lab. And so I read that and I
[00:04:35.040] said, "Well, that's that's pretty
[00:04:37.280] interesting." So Justin Alark by this
[00:04:39.919] time I I' I'd headed over to Stanford
[00:04:42.479] Research Institute to do my to do my
[00:04:44.800] laser work. So anyway, I invited him
[00:04:47.600] for, you know, a weekend just to see
[00:04:49.759] what else he could do. And of course, I
[00:04:51.840] talked to all my physics colleagues and
[00:04:53.360] said, "Oh my god, these guys are all
[00:04:54.800] frauds and charlatans. You better you
[00:04:57.120] better know what you're doing." Well, it
[00:04:59.199] turns out that I had a great experiment
[00:05:02.000] for him because we had an experiment set
[00:05:04.560] up at Stanford that was a very sensitive
[00:05:07.600] quantum chip inside of electrical
[00:05:10.240] shielding, inside of magnetic shielding,
[00:05:12.800] inside of superconducting shielding,
[00:05:15.440] completely acoustically isolated from
[00:05:17.600] the environment. No way anything on the
[00:05:20.880] outside could affect that little chip.
[00:05:23.600] They were only looking for quarks and
[00:05:25.680] stuff like that. So anyway, I brought
[00:05:27.919] him over to the lab. I said, ' Remember
[00:05:29.039] that thing you did with the with the uh
[00:05:31.360] thermisters there at City College in New
[00:05:33.520] York? Well, this is sort of that like
[00:05:35.520] that on steroids. And so he said, "Okay,
[00:05:38.479] well, I'll see what I can do." Well, it
[00:05:41.520] turned out he generated all kinds of
[00:05:43.600] signals in in that little quantum chip.
[00:05:46.560] And of course a graduate student whose
[00:05:48.240] life depended on this not being you know
[00:05:51.120] affected by anything outside said well
[00:05:53.240] maybe there's some bubbles in the
[00:05:55.680] hydrogen line or something something but
[00:05:58.720] no he was able to do it but what was
[00:06:01.039] most interesting was and I asked him
[00:06:03.759] well how'd you know what to do he said
[00:06:05.520] well I didn't know what to do so I just
[00:06:07.120] looked inside looked inside through all
[00:06:10.080] this shielding and and he drew a diagram
[00:06:13.039] of what was inside there that never been
[00:06:14.880] published and he said, "Well, this is
[00:06:17.120] when I put my attention on it." That
[00:06:19.280] just happened by accident. So, you drew
[00:06:22.240] an accurate diagram of all the shielding
[00:06:25.039] that you had around this equipment and
[00:06:27.600] the little quantum chip and its
[00:06:29.520] circuitry deep inside. And when you say
[00:06:31.919] he was able to affect something, what in
[00:06:34.479] particular was he able to affect? Uh,
[00:06:37.280] well, in general, there was a big
[00:06:39.280] oscillating signal coming out of the
[00:06:41.440] thing that ran about 30 seconds or so.
[00:06:44.400] And then when he affected it, it just
[00:06:46.400] stopped
[00:06:47.800] oscillating. And then like and then he
[00:06:51.280] said, "You want me to do something
[00:06:52.400] else?" And then he made it oscillate
[00:06:54.160] fast. And that's when the quant with
[00:06:56.319] when the graduate student sort of went
[00:06:58.039] berserko. And uh so he said, "Wait, let
[00:07:01.360] let me see what's wrong here." And he
[00:07:02.720] couldn't find anything wrong. So he
[00:07:04.720] said, "Well, I'm sure that was just some
[00:07:06.000] kind of coincidental glitch." And he did
[00:07:08.880] it again. And so he said, "Okay." He's
[00:07:11.680] doing it exactly when he's saying he's
[00:07:13.280] going to do it. Exactly when he say he's
[00:07:14.639] going to do it. But anyway, the reason
[00:07:17.280] I'm trying to get get around to
[00:07:19.039] answering your question was that I then
[00:07:21.520] wrote this up and circulated around to
[00:07:23.599] other physicists and pretty soon the CIA
[00:07:27.199] come landing on my doorstep and said,
[00:07:30.160] "Oh, have we been looking for you?" And
[00:07:32.720] I said, "You know why?" Yeah. Well, they
[00:07:35.280] looked in my background. and they saw
[00:07:36.800] that I had uh between my uh master
[00:07:39.680] degree and PhD, I'd been a naval
[00:07:42.560] intelligence officer at the National
[00:07:44.560] Security Agency, I had lots of uh high
[00:07:47.840] level
[00:07:49.319] clearances. And he said, you know, we
[00:07:51.360] have a problem. and they popped a big
[00:07:53.199] report down on the desk about like that
[00:07:56.639] and said, "Look, the Russians has been
[00:07:58.720] spending millions of dollars at their
[00:08:00.319] best institutes trying to use ESP for
[00:08:05.440] espionage
[00:08:06.759] purposes." And we don't know how to
[00:08:09.440] evaluate it. I mean, no scientist in
[00:08:11.280] America even believes there is such a
[00:08:13.560] thing. And yet you did this experiment
[00:08:16.639] and it looked like this guy could
[00:08:19.039] actually get inside this device and
[00:08:21.440] describe it and affect it and and here
[00:08:24.479] you're at SRRI. We have lots of black
[00:08:26.240] black projects here anyway. So we'd like
[00:08:29.120] we'd like to check him out. Uh can you
[00:08:31.759] can you bring him back and let us come
[00:08:33.279] and do some experiments with them? And
[00:08:35.360] by the way, we're hoping that we'll find
[00:08:36.880] this is just all BS and uh we don't have
[00:08:39.839] to think about it and that'll be the end
[00:08:41.599] of that. So anyway, brought him back.
[00:08:45.360] They spent a day hiding things in the
[00:08:47.279] boxes and envelopes and he would
[00:08:49.440] describe what was inside and uh they
[00:08:52.640] were totally blown away. So they said,
[00:08:54.000] "Okay, we want would like to give you a
[00:08:55.760] little project here. I know 50 or 60K
[00:08:59.519] and see what else he can do." So anyway,
[00:09:01.760] that's how I got started on doing quote
[00:09:04.399] weird stuff. And so as that many would
[00:09:08.320] know that project ended up being very
[00:09:10.959] productive and it went over
[00:09:13.480] uh more than 20 years and so on highly
[00:09:16.800] classified level and well maybe we'll
[00:09:19.279] get to that separately because I think
[00:09:22.160] the UAP stuff is kind of more
[00:09:24.160] interesting to to start with but anyway
[00:09:26.880] that's that's how I got started in in
[00:09:29.920] weird physics you might call it and then
[00:09:33.120] sort of like in Ghostbusters. Well, if
[00:09:34.880] you got some difficult problem, who you
[00:09:37.279] going to call? I'll put off. There I am.
[00:09:41.680] So, what other things did you do with
[00:09:43.680] Ingo? So, he was able to affect the
[00:09:46.640] oscillations. So, he able to affect the
[00:09:48.560] oscillations. So, there's some he had
[00:09:50.399] some sort of an ability. Did he describe
[00:09:52.800] first of all like what this ability was,
[00:09:55.440] how he perceived it?
[00:09:58.800] He said that for some reason, starting
[00:10:01.120] when he was a little kid,
[00:10:03.440] um he would, you know, try to focus on
[00:10:06.640] some news item or whatever and he'd
[00:10:08.399] suddenly get some kind of picture in his
[00:10:10.880] mind about what was going on and later
[00:10:12.959] he would check it out and it turned out
[00:10:14.320] to be correct. So he just said, you
[00:10:17.120] know, I just he stumbled upon remote
[00:10:20.000] viewing them, right? But remote viewing
[00:10:22.320] and then being able to interact with the
[00:10:24.880] equipment and change the oscillation
[00:10:27.440] seems very different, right? It is very
[00:10:29.600] different. And uh as we might discuss
[00:10:33.440] later, I've got some ideas about, you
[00:10:35.279] know, what some of the quantum
[00:10:36.480] mechanisms might be involved in that.
[00:10:38.399] But anyway, as far as the CIA was
[00:10:40.399] concerned, they were most interested in
[00:10:42.200] this ability to see through shielding.
[00:10:46.079] and they said, "Does that mean if we
[00:10:47.760] have all kinds of classified documents
[00:10:51.120] and a superconducting safe, the Russians
[00:10:54.000] might be able to, you know, reach in and
[00:10:56.160] see them?" And so that that that's what
[00:10:58.000] they were most worried about. And so
[00:11:00.640] anyway, did you find out to be true?
[00:11:04.800] That started a whole program when we
[00:11:06.800] found out that uh it was true that uh we
[00:11:10.880] started out doing what you would think,
[00:11:12.800] you know, just hiding things in the next
[00:11:14.399] room. and can you describe them and
[00:11:16.399] stuff like that. And uh but
[00:11:20.120] then he got bored. He says, "Well, if
[00:11:23.200] you want to know what's in the next
[00:11:24.079] room, go look. You want to know what's
[00:11:26.399] in the envelope or the box? Open it up."
[00:11:28.320] He said, "So he said, "Uh, well, you
[00:11:30.720] know, what do you have in mind?" He
[00:11:32.640] said, "Well, just send somebody out into
[00:11:34.560] the San Francisco Bay area and I'll
[00:11:36.399] describe where they are." And so that's
[00:11:39.279] how what we call remote viewing program
[00:11:42.320] got started. We started doing
[00:11:45.399] experiments which each I gota I got to
[00:11:48.720] say I I I I I resisted this stuff every
[00:11:51.600] inch along the way because as a
[00:11:53.120] physicist I had no idea how this could
[00:11:55.839] possibly be. But nonetheless we began
[00:11:58.720] working with him. uh our lab director
[00:12:02.560] who's always concerned about was this
[00:12:04.480] some kind of hoax between the subjects
[00:12:06.240] and the experimenters and he'd make up a
[00:12:08.560] long list and store them in his safe and
[00:12:12.079] we'd go get an envelope out of the safe
[00:12:15.920] leave SRI drive to wherever the envelope
[00:12:18.399] said and he would give give a
[00:12:20.079] description. That's how that whole
[00:12:21.360] program got started.
[00:12:23.760] When you are experiencing this and
[00:12:25.839] you're initially very skeptical and you
[00:12:27.760] start seeing these results, what kind of
[00:12:29.600] a shift does that have in your world
[00:12:35.079] view? It was very challenging I got to
[00:12:38.320] say because as a physicist and as a
[00:12:41.040] quantum physicist where I've, you know,
[00:12:42.399] written equations for all kinds of
[00:12:44.279] interactions, I had no clue how anything
[00:12:48.000] like this could possibly be. And I'll be
[00:12:51.120] be honest, I still don't really have a
[00:12:53.600] clue about exactly what's what's going
[00:12:56.720] on other than consciousness seems to be
[00:13:00.720] expandable out into the environment in a
[00:13:03.279] way that we don't usually uh consider
[00:13:06.240] could possibly be the case. You know,
[00:13:09.040] there there are people who get into
[00:13:10.720] meditation, all that kind of stuff, but
[00:13:12.639] none of that was uh in in in my
[00:13:15.200] background. And so I just found this a
[00:13:17.440] challenge and uh it was only
[00:13:20.920] that CIA was paying us to look into this
[00:13:24.160] that I kept going the next step
[00:13:26.399] resisting every inch along the way. To
[00:13:29.279] give you an example
[00:13:33.800] um along the
[00:13:35.959] way there was a little bit of uh PR in
[00:13:38.880] the newsprint newspapers about our exper
[00:13:42.160] experiment. So, we began getting people
[00:13:44.240] calling in and saying, "Well, I have
[00:13:45.839] some of that ability, too." And and
[00:13:48.360] whatever. And so, uh, one of the people
[00:13:51.440] that came along, uh, that way was Pat
[00:13:53.680] Price. He was,
[00:13:56.440] uh, ex police commissioner Burbank, and
[00:13:59.839] he said, "You know, when we were solving
[00:14:01.600] crimes, I would get an image of where
[00:14:03.920] the culprit might be hiding, and it
[00:14:06.720] would turn out to be correct. So, maybe
[00:14:08.160] I have some of this ability." Well, I I
[00:14:10.240] had no reason to necessarily believe
[00:14:12.000] that, but it turned out that right at
[00:14:13.600] that
[00:14:14.440] moment, we were being challenged by the
[00:14:17.199] CIA to prove this wasn't just some kind
[00:14:20.079] of a hoax between the experimenters and
[00:14:22.480] the subjects. And so they came up with
[00:14:25.720] coordinates because as it turns out when
[00:14:28.560] we sent people out to a site and Ingo or
[00:14:31.680] somebody else had to describe it they
[00:14:34.000] would describe not only the
[00:14:36.040] site as being observed by the outbound
[00:14:39.040] person but also what was inside the
[00:14:40.880] building and what was on top of the
[00:14:42.320] building. So we suddenly realized okay
[00:14:44.880] that person is just a beacon. It's not
[00:14:46.560] that he's sending something back
[00:14:47.839] telepathically. So once we realized that
[00:14:50.959] Engle Swan in his
[00:14:54.120] neverending challenge uh said well just
[00:14:57.199] give me coordinates you know latitude
[00:14:59.440] and longitude and degrees minutes and
[00:15:01.160] seconds and I'll look wherever that is
[00:15:04.160] and tell you what I find. So in fact
[00:15:08.040] uh okay I found that hard to believe
[00:15:10.959] also but we did a lot of experiments and
[00:15:13.360] started targeting on things. Anyway Pat
[00:15:16.399] Price shows up. We do some local
[00:15:18.720] experiments and he's doing very well as
[00:15:21.800] well. And so again, our CIA contract
[00:15:25.519] monitors are worried that there's some
[00:15:27.040] kind of, you know, trickery trickery and
[00:15:29.279] and so that so they came up with
[00:15:31.279] coordinates of what turns out to be
[00:15:33.440] right next to Sugar Grove facility,
[00:15:36.399] which is a highly classified NSA
[00:15:39.040] facility picking up Soviet satellite
[00:15:43.639] transmissions. So I just I I had no idea
[00:15:46.160] what it was. I mean, we always kept
[00:15:47.839] ourselves blind to what the target was
[00:15:49.839] so no one could say. We just gave him
[00:15:51.600] the data. So Pat Price uh decided to,
[00:15:55.920] you know, to follow our instructions and
[00:15:58.639] go to those coordinates and say what he
[00:16:00.639] says. And so he describes this
[00:16:03.880] place. But as part of that, what he does
[00:16:07.279] is he says that he merged his mind,
[00:16:12.240] whatever you want to say, into a safe
[00:16:16.079] and a whole bunch of words popped up
[00:16:17.759] into his mind. So he gave this whole
[00:16:20.000] list of words. Okay, fine. So he wrote
[00:16:22.800] them all down, sent them off. Pretty
[00:16:24.880] soon the entire law enforcement
[00:16:26.920] apparatus of the country landed on us
[00:16:30.000] and said, "How'd you get this
[00:16:31.600] information? this is highly classified
[00:16:33.920] project titles. Do you have a source
[00:16:36.399] inside? And no, we were we're just doing
[00:16:38.959] this experiment and that's what he got.
[00:16:41.600] And so eventually 20 years later, you
[00:16:44.240] can find the the paper that was
[00:16:46.160] published by the CIA about what a deal
[00:16:49.759] this was. And so anyway, at that time,
[00:16:52.959] we were at a point we're about ready to
[00:16:55.920] get the next year's contract. And we had
[00:17:00.040] um a deputy director uh John McMahon
[00:17:04.559] said, "Okay, well, let's not waste it on
[00:17:06.559] our science for God's
[00:17:08.199] sakes. Do a Soviet site." And so they
[00:17:11.919] gave us coordinates of a Soviet site.
[00:17:15.360] Turned out to be an R&D facility at
[00:17:18.919] Semipalatinsk in the Soviet Union.
[00:17:22.439] And so we targeted Price on that. He
[00:17:25.520] turned out to be a really a good remote
[00:17:27.120] viewer along with Engine. And uh he
[00:17:30.000] described this giant crane that rolled
[00:17:32.640] over the top of a building and uh I mean
[00:17:36.799] it was it sounded like science fiction.
[00:17:38.720] I I've got some examples here of the
[00:17:41.600] drawings of
[00:17:42.679] that. And so uh it turned out that from
[00:17:46.480] satellite imagery what he drew was
[00:17:51.320] correct. And so that finally started.
[00:17:54.520] Okay, this stuff is real. It can be
[00:17:58.679] used. Let's go to work with it. So,
[00:18:02.480] that's what started the whole, you might
[00:18:05.160] say, espionage oriented uh SRRI program
[00:18:09.360] on remote viewing. It went for, I don't
[00:18:11.360] know, like 23 years or so. What are the
[00:18:13.600] meetings like when you're explaining
[00:18:15.440] this to the CIA and you're showing them
[00:18:17.360] results and you've got these, you know,
[00:18:20.080] hard-nosed individuals who are pretty
[00:18:22.640] rational, right? Trying to figure out
[00:18:26.320] what you're
[00:18:27.640] saying. This episode is brought to you
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[00:19:29.840] details. There really basically two
[00:19:32.080] levels of response. For example, some of
[00:19:34.320] the early work when we went to to to
[00:19:36.400] brief uh we had 10 or 12 people and
[00:19:39.760] we're talking about the work. Pretty
[00:19:41.840] soon a guy in the back of the room jumps
[00:19:43.919] up and he says, "I know what this is.
[00:19:46.160] This is some kind of scop test of our
[00:19:48.360] gullibility and I want you to know
[00:19:50.400] whoever's, you know, putting this out,
[00:19:52.559] I'm not buying it." And he stormed out
[00:19:54.160] of the room. So that that was one
[00:19:55.919] response. But there's a second response
[00:19:58.320] we got which uh turned out to be
[00:20:00.080] interesting.
[00:20:01.679] At a certain point after we had done a
[00:20:04.160] number of years of successful work in in
[00:20:07.360] doing the remote
[00:20:08.760] viewing, we had to keep briefing higher
[00:20:11.520] and higher. As you can imagine, I hated
[00:20:14.480] briefing higher because if you brief a
[00:20:16.480] highle guy and he says, "Oh, come on.
[00:20:18.160] This is nonsense. This is BS." You know,
[00:20:20.400] that's the end. That's the end of your
[00:20:22.160] programs. So I got to the thought point
[00:20:24.720] where for example uh I briefed uh Bill
[00:20:28.400] Casey who was director of CIA under
[00:20:31.799] Reagan and we had 45 minutes with
[00:20:35.320] him and so went through stuff like I've
[00:20:38.799] been describing for 45 minutes he got so
[00:20:42.720] entranced with it that he dismissed the
[00:20:45.520] rest of his afternoon calendar and we
[00:20:47.280] spent five hours briefing him on that.
[00:20:50.720] So there was this funny thing where a
[00:20:53.120] certain level of people would just h
[00:20:55.120] this this can't be and
[00:20:57.960] then really high level people seem to be
[00:21:01.360] more open to it. So actually we came up
[00:21:03.280] with a hypothesis and that is okay
[00:21:05.280] people who make it to the top of the
[00:21:06.880] food chain might be people who at some
[00:21:10.000] level inside themselves are you know
[00:21:12.159] they're always making decisions based on
[00:21:14.000] insufficient information and they end up
[00:21:16.240] making the right decision. That's how
[00:21:17.600] they got to where they are. So maybe
[00:21:19.760] this is uh some aspect that's at least
[00:21:23.120] at the unconscious level happening all
[00:21:26.559] the time. Well, that finally got put to
[00:21:28.640] a test because there were some
[00:21:29.840] parasychologists who did some
[00:21:31.679] experiments uh with a meeting of uh CEOs
[00:21:36.559] of I think it was 67 CEOs of major
[00:21:40.080] corporations and had them try to guess
[00:21:42.880] the numbers that were going to be
[00:21:44.000] generated on a computer the next day.
[00:21:46.799] And so they did that and it turned out
[00:21:49.520] that those who scored quite positively
[00:21:52.960] significantly so when we interviewed
[00:21:55.200] them it turned out they were the people
[00:21:56.720] who had the businesses that were really
[00:21:59.039] doing well and the people who scored
[00:22:02.400] poorly had businesses that were kind of
[00:22:04.559] failing. So these uh investigators would
[00:22:08.000] ask them well you know what uh are you
[00:22:11.760] using do use ESP or something? Do you
[00:22:14.480] have some glint of the future? Said,
[00:22:16.240] "No, no, no, no. I don't believe any of
[00:22:17.760] that nonsense." But I realize that when
[00:22:21.200] I trust my gut instinct, I'm usually
[00:22:24.159] right. So anyway, that sort of leads to
[00:22:26.720] the eye that this this is a a broadly
[00:22:30.440] uh available phenomenon that Yeah. Do
[00:22:34.559] you think that this is an emerging
[00:22:36.320] aspect of human consciousness or do you
[00:22:38.720] think that this is something that maybe
[00:22:41.200] we developed a long time ago but lost
[00:22:45.120] because of
[00:22:46.440] communication because of the written
[00:22:49.039] word because of our ability to express
[00:22:51.280] ourselves that we stopped communicating
[00:22:54.159] with the mind.
[00:22:56.000] I think your second uh interpretation is
[00:22:59.600] is is the correct one because probably
[00:23:02.000] you know when you're out in the jungle
[00:23:03.200] and there's a tiger coming down the
[00:23:04.799] trail that you don't know about quite
[00:23:06.400] you know it would be a thing that you
[00:23:09.000] would could really help you exist and
[00:23:12.120] survive. But once we get into language
[00:23:14.640] and technology and so on, you know, that
[00:23:16.960] sort
[00:23:17.880] of nonetheless, we we found I'll I'll
[00:23:21.360] tell you what was the most mind-boggling
[00:23:24.960] thing in the whole
[00:23:26.840] program was the following. We had a few
[00:23:30.559] people who did really
[00:23:32.120] well. So, of course, CIA wanted to know,
[00:23:34.880] well, we we'd like to find people in CIA
[00:23:37.520] who could do this. So uh give us a full
[00:23:41.799] medical roundup of these people. So we
[00:23:45.120] got a full medical including seven layer
[00:23:48.400] brain scans. Uh and they came back and
[00:23:51.919] said well these are just normal people.
[00:23:54.880] So oh well may maybe it's psychological
[00:23:57.840] or neurological or whatever. So they did
[00:24:00.400] all those
[00:24:01.400] experiments and they said these are just
[00:24:03.679] normal people. So we wondered well does
[00:24:06.640] that mean that normal people could could
[00:24:10.000] do this even if they didn't know about
[00:24:11.360] it. So about that time
[00:24:14.720] uh we said okay well let's let's just
[00:24:16.559] bring in some people from SRRI uh labs
[00:24:20.400] uh who never thought about ESP who never
[00:24:23.679] thought about any of this stuff. So I
[00:24:26.000] remember we had a woman Hela Hammed and
[00:24:29.039] we asked her to uh come uh volunteer for
[00:24:33.360] an experiment. She said what kind of
[00:24:34.480] experiment? said, "Well, it's sort of
[00:24:36.159] like an ESP experiment." And she give me
[00:24:38.880] a break. I don't I don't believe in that
[00:24:40.559] stuff. And okay, but but do it anyway.
[00:24:44.240] And so, uh, one of the first experiments
[00:24:47.279] we did with her, and we have a wonderful
[00:24:49.760] diagram of of of what she did, we sent
[00:24:53.360] somebody out by our usual random
[00:24:55.039] protocol to a overpass over a
[00:24:58.919] freeway that's uh, all fenced in with a
[00:25:03.440] very interesting
[00:25:04.919] structure. And she made a drawing of all
[00:25:07.360] of that and said uh, you know, this kind
[00:25:09.679] of trough up in the air, but it's got
[00:25:11.440] holes in it, so it couldn't carry water.
[00:25:13.520] there's something going by really fast.
[00:25:15.919] I mean, she really nailed the place. And
[00:25:19.200] so, we got the idea, and that was the
[00:25:21.120] biggest discovery in this whole thing
[00:25:22.880] was that apparently, as with
[00:25:26.760] say, athletic ability or uh musical
[00:25:31.960] ability, there's a bell curve and you
[00:25:35.039] got superstars at one end, you got duds
[00:25:37.760] at the other, but to some degree,
[00:25:40.320] anybody could do it. So that had a lot
[00:25:42.159] of
[00:25:43.400] uh outcome later on in the program when
[00:25:47.240] finally well to give an example of a
[00:25:49.840] real world world
[00:25:51.480] result a Soviet plane went down
[00:25:55.039] somewhere in Africa. That's all we knew.
[00:25:58.000] Somewhere in Africa plane went down. So
[00:26:00.960] Stansville Turner who was Carter's uh
[00:26:03.919] CIA director knew about our remote
[00:26:05.919] viewing program. And so he said, "Uh,
[00:26:08.960] well, you've got these quote, remote
[00:26:10.960] viewers are supposed to be so good. Why
[00:26:13.760] don't they find the plane for you?" So,
[00:26:16.320] in fact, uh, we had a remote viewer at
[00:26:19.520] our lab and at that time we were working
[00:26:22.640] with uh, Wright Patterson Air Force
[00:26:24.960] Base, Foreign Technology Division. They
[00:26:26.880] had a remote viewer. So, we target these
[00:26:29.360] two remote viewers. All they knew is a
[00:26:31.440] plane went down somewhere in Africa,
[00:26:33.279] hundreds of thousands of square miles.
[00:26:35.840] And uh make long story short, they
[00:26:38.559] describe how it looked and put an X on a
[00:26:41.679] map that was 3 miles from where the
[00:26:43.520] plane landed. We were told that would
[00:26:46.080] never be revealed to the public. But it
[00:26:49.360] turned out that after Carter got out of
[00:26:51.120] office, he was giving a speech in uh
[00:26:53.760] Georgia someplace and somebody said,
[00:26:55.840] "Well, anything happened while you're
[00:26:57.440] present?" That was really strange. He,
[00:26:59.679] oh yeah, we there Soviet plane went down
[00:27:02.240] in uh Africa and was full of electronics
[00:27:05.039] and we wanted to get it and nobody knew
[00:27:07.520] where it was and the satellites couldn't
[00:27:09.679] find it because of all the vegetation
[00:27:11.440] and but we had some remote viewers
[00:27:14.159] so-called and they pinpointed where it
[00:27:16.640] was and we went in and got it before the
[00:27:19.120] Russians could find it. So I mean the
[00:27:21.919] real world consequences came out of this
[00:27:24.320] stuff. So when Carter said that, was
[00:27:26.720] that a breach of confidence? That was a
[00:27:30.159] breach of security. But a president can
[00:27:33.440] they're allowed to do that. They're
[00:27:34.400] allowed to do that. Don't tell Trump.
[00:27:38.320] Right. So So you the the United States
[00:27:41.600] was able to go and get this jet and
[00:27:44.960] Right. So by then TU Tu22 bomber I think
[00:27:48.720] it was. Yeah. So this has realworld
[00:27:52.880] uses. So this this remote viewing so do
[00:27:56.559] they invest more time and more effort
[00:27:58.880] into this now. Are there still skeptics?
[00:28:03.039] Well, we pretty much handle the
[00:28:04.559] skeptical problem. And let let me let me
[00:28:07.039] give you an example. I mean, as we're
[00:28:09.440] turning out these results, as you can
[00:28:11.159] imagine,
[00:28:13.159] anybody, you know, didn't have direct
[00:28:16.320] knowledge of this would would be
[00:28:17.760] skeptical. And rightly so, by the way. I
[00:28:20.159] mean, I was skeptical every inch along
[00:28:22.399] the way as we plowed our way into this
[00:28:24.440] stuff. So, one day, uh, a guy shows up
[00:28:28.080] from CIA and says, "Okay,
[00:28:31.080] uh, I'm here to find out what the fraud
[00:28:33.840] is. I'm sure this is absolute nonsense."
[00:28:37.039] So, I said, "Okay, fine. So, show me one
[00:28:39.919] of your experiments." So, you know, we
[00:28:41.600] put him in the lab with an interviewer
[00:28:44.240] and another and a remote viewer. And uh
[00:28:48.000] in this case, I'm sent out someplace and
[00:28:51.919] uh for 30 minutes and I come. It turns
[00:28:54.320] out that the remote viewer described it
[00:28:56.240] really well. And he said, "Well, you
[00:28:59.720] probably told him where you're going to
[00:29:01.679] go." Uh let's do another experiment and
[00:29:05.679] I'm going to go and we'll go in my car
[00:29:08.159] because you might have had a you know
[00:29:10.399] transmitter in your car transmitting
[00:29:12.080] where you're where you're going. So I'm
[00:29:13.679] going to pick the side. So we do another
[00:29:16.159] experiment, get a great
[00:29:18.440] result. So finally he says, "Well, I got
[00:29:21.760] to figure out what's what's wrong with
[00:29:23.640] this." So my colleague Russell Tar and I
[00:29:26.960] sat down to know this guy's a hard case,
[00:29:29.360] but we got the bell curve. Who knows?
[00:29:31.919] Maybe somewhere in the middle of the
[00:29:33.120] bell curve. So he comes in the next day
[00:29:35.919] and we say, "Okay,
[00:29:37.960] um, today you're going to be the remote
[00:29:40.520] viewer." And he said, "Give me a break.
[00:29:43.520] I don't believe in this BS. He said much
[00:29:46.159] more strongly than that actually. And I
[00:29:48.559] said, "No, okay. Well, just just try it.
[00:29:50.559] You'll see we're not stressing him out
[00:29:52.080] and whatever, whatever, whatever." And
[00:29:54.240] he says, "Okay." And
[00:29:57.080] uh when you go to your place, I want you
[00:30:00.559] to take pictures and do a recording, and
[00:30:04.960] when you come back, show me your stuff
[00:30:07.039] before I show you mine. Okay, fine.
[00:30:09.840] Well, it turned out we went to a
[00:30:11.919] playground with a
[00:30:13.399] merrygoround. Meanwhile, back in the
[00:30:15.440] lab, he's drawing a picture of a
[00:30:17.840] playground with a
[00:30:19.480] merrygoround. And he sees the results
[00:30:21.520] and he says,
[00:30:22.520] "Okay, you've convinced me." So, it was
[00:30:26.080] that kind of thing that would push him
[00:30:29.200] over. Yeah. There there's an example.
[00:30:32.240] Now, he misinterpreted what it was. He
[00:30:34.159] thought maybe it was a cupula or
[00:30:36.360] whatever. But anyway, that's his drawing
[00:30:38.880] on the right and that's where we were on
[00:30:40.480] the left. And so he said, so so he went
[00:30:42.960] back to CIA and said, "Okay, this stuff
[00:30:45.440] really works." And uh he became one of
[00:30:48.320] their star remote viewers over the
[00:30:50.000] years. Wow. So a skeptic became one of
[00:30:52.399] their remote viewers. Yep. Sure did.
[00:30:54.399] What is the process? What is the process
[00:30:57.039] for a person to remote view? Like is
[00:30:59.840] there a state that you have to go into?
[00:31:02.000] Is there a method to getting into that
[00:31:03.600] state? There is a method and it's
[00:31:05.440] different from what you might think. You
[00:31:07.840] might think uh you would say to
[00:31:09.600] somebody, okay, we've got somebody to
[00:31:11.480] decide kind of imagine where they are
[00:31:14.480] and see what it looks like and tell us
[00:31:17.039] what you find and all that kind of kind
[00:31:18.559] of stuff. They're usually wrong when
[00:31:20.240] they do that because their imagination
[00:31:21.919] comes into play and they make up
[00:31:23.760] something or whatever. But what we found
[00:31:26.080] out in the research, you it took years
[00:31:28.880] and a lot of trials was that you get a
[00:31:32.000] visceral response to a site. It's not
[00:31:35.279] that you get necessarily get an image.
[00:31:37.360] So in fact, we we we told them, you
[00:31:39.200] know, if if you get an image, just put
[00:31:41.120] it down the right hand side of the paper
[00:31:42.799] because it's probably wrong. Instead,
[00:31:45.279] just kind of put down your feelings as
[00:31:47.360] you get into the site. And so, you know,
[00:31:49.600] if it's like water, they might do waves.
[00:31:52.799] Or if it's a mountain peak, they might
[00:31:55.440] uh, as Jacques described in one of your
[00:31:57.919] previous broadcasts, uh, a mountain
[00:32:00.159] peak, and they just feel like drawing
[00:32:01.679] something like that. So, bit by bit, the
[00:32:04.480] process is very much a visceral feeling
[00:32:09.279] process. And so the training procedure
[00:32:11.679] has them sitting with pads of paper and
[00:32:14.880] just making sketches and drawings and
[00:32:17.200] not trying to interpret what it is. And
[00:32:20.320] also being very uh not in a rush about
[00:32:24.320] it. It's sort of like you've got a door
[00:32:26.720] and you drill a hole through and then
[00:32:28.960] drill another hole through and another
[00:32:30.559] hole through and then finally the door
[00:32:32.159] crumbles and then you've got a pretty
[00:32:35.120] good feeling for what the side is. So,
[00:32:37.360] so the process that we use to train
[00:32:39.960] people involves this multi-stage process
[00:32:44.240] where they're to go by feelings, colors,
[00:32:49.200] flashes of things. You see a flash of
[00:32:51.600] piece of metal, don't try to turn it
[00:32:53.039] into a car or a bicycle or whatever. So
[00:32:55.679] anyway, it was a whole training
[00:32:56.640] procedure that we developed and
[00:32:58.320] eventually when we
[00:33:00.120] uh briefed uh the assistant uh chief of
[00:33:04.000] staff for intelligence, assistant
[00:33:06.080] director of intelligence for the army,
[00:33:08.399] they said, "Okay, well then we need to
[00:33:10.480] have our people get involved in learning
[00:33:13.519] how to do this." And so they sent army
[00:33:16.880] intelligence
[00:33:18.519] officers. They picked out a bunch of
[00:33:20.880] them and said, "Hey, you've just
[00:33:22.480] volunteered to become a psychic spy."
[00:33:24.240] and say, "Oh, okay." And they sent them
[00:33:27.200] out to SRRI and we ran them through this
[00:33:30.880] step-by-step training procedure and they
[00:33:33.519] learned to do really, really well. I
[00:33:35.360] mean, u Joe McMonigle, who anyone who
[00:33:38.960] follows the literature is is known to be
[00:33:41.919] really an excellent remote viewer. And
[00:33:44.799] so,
[00:33:47.240] uh, give you an example. Uh, one time he
[00:33:52.200] said, I mean, we trained them and and
[00:33:54.399] and and so they learned to do really
[00:33:56.720] well. We set up a whole program and uh,
[00:33:59.760] he said, "Okay, the there's this site in
[00:34:02.720] the Soviet Union and they're making this
[00:34:05.960] unbelievably giant
[00:34:09.240] submarine and it's made out of titanium
[00:34:12.320] or something. I mean, it's bigger than
[00:34:14.399] any submarine that anybody's ever heard
[00:34:16.320] of." And it's strange because the
[00:34:18.879] missile silos are on the top rather than
[00:34:21.760] along the sides. And so I gave this
[00:34:23.679] whole
[00:34:24.440] description. Of course, we had to at
[00:34:26.399] that time we were briefing all the way
[00:34:28.159] up the National Security Council. And so
[00:34:30.000] they looked at this. This is this is
[00:34:31.960] nonsense. But about a month later out
[00:34:34.800] rolls this unbelievably giant submarine,
[00:34:37.440] the Typhoon class submarine, the largest
[00:34:39.280] submarine ever made. Uh indeed uh there
[00:34:43.839] are his sketches and a lot of
[00:34:46.079] description that went along with his
[00:34:47.720] sketches. There's a submarine on the
[00:34:50.119] right. And so finally the people of the
[00:34:52.399] National Security Council said, "Okay,
[00:34:54.639] we better start taking this seriously."
[00:34:56.960] So, make a long story short, he
[00:34:58.560] eventually Joe McMongle got a
[00:35:01.079] uh National Merit Award uh for over
[00:35:06.839] 200 great viewings he did for
[00:35:10.839] CIA, National Security Council, uh FBI,
[00:35:14.880] I mean, you name it. So, anyway, that
[00:35:16.800] grew into a whole industry. This episode
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[00:37:12.560] only. So, this is still kind of a mis
[00:37:15.839] mystery even to you. Even someone who
[00:37:18.000] has studied this for this long, you know
[00:37:19.520] that it works, but you're not exactly
[00:37:22.320] sure how it's working. Is that a fair
[00:37:24.960] assessment? That's a fair assessment. I
[00:37:26.720] mean, when we as physicists, we hate to
[00:37:29.119] say, "Oh, don't have a clue." So well we
[00:37:32.800] now know there's so-called quantum
[00:37:35.720] entanglement which is that things are
[00:37:38.560] seem to be connected at a quantum level
[00:37:40.640] across great distances and so the easy
[00:37:44.320] answers well it must be quantum
[00:37:46.480] entanglement but you know that doesn't
[00:37:48.960] just words it doesn't really tell us how
[00:37:51.040] it works but but to give you an example
[00:37:54.079] we wondered how far you could go so we
[00:37:57.680] did an experiment again with Ingo Swan
[00:37:59.760] who was such a really top level remote
[00:38:04.119] viewer
[00:38:05.880] to view
[00:38:08.760] Jupiter, planet Jupiter before the
[00:38:12.680] flyby, before the NASA flyby. And uh so
[00:38:16.560] he did and he described Jupiter the way
[00:38:20.400] anybody might, you know, red spot and
[00:38:22.320] all that kind of stuff. And but he said,
[00:38:23.760] "But but there's a thin ring around
[00:38:25.599] Jupiter. I wonder if I went to Saturn by
[00:38:28.560] mistake, but I really see a ring around
[00:38:30.920] Jupiter. And nobody knew about any ring
[00:38:33.680] around Jupiter. Carl Sean happened to
[00:38:36.000] come by in the lab. He said, "Oh, what
[00:38:37.599] do you think of this? We we got this
[00:38:39.119] result." He said, "Ring around Jupiter?
[00:38:41.200] That's nonsense. There's no But when the
[00:38:44.000] NASA flyby finally got there, it turned
[00:38:46.880] out there was a ring, small ring around
[00:38:49.520] Jupiter." And so we got that in
[00:38:51.839] publication in in a book we wrote about
[00:38:54.079] all this stuff
[00:38:56.280] before it was known in in the scientific
[00:38:59.440] community.
[00:39:00.920] So that's what we find out that
[00:39:03.359] apparently even distances is not a big
[00:39:05.839] deal. The other thing the other thing we
[00:39:08.480] wondered uh I can tell you what it
[00:39:10.320] isn't. Okay. We thought maybe it was
[00:39:12.240] brain waves. The Russians came up with
[00:39:14.480] an idea.
[00:39:15.640] Well, brain waves are low frequency,
[00:39:19.359] long
[00:39:20.280] wavelength.
[00:39:21.800] Um, they can
[00:39:24.280] seemingly get through some some aspects
[00:39:28.000] of the environment.
[00:39:30.480] So we came up with a series of
[00:39:32.160] experiments and one of them was okay
[00:39:33.760] let's let's put our remote viewers on
[00:39:36.839] submarines take them to the into the
[00:39:39.839] depths of the ocean because it turns out
[00:39:42.240] seawater is highly
[00:39:45.160] conductive and so at the even at low
[00:39:48.960] frequencies even at brain wave
[00:39:50.560] frequencies
[00:39:52.680] uh it would be a complete shield for
[00:39:55.359] that. So we we we piggybacked on
[00:39:58.079] somebody else's experiments, Steven
[00:39:59.760] Schwarz's experiments using remote
[00:40:01.839] viewers to go find archaeological wrecks
[00:40:05.359] and uh shipwrecks and so on, which
[00:40:07.839] turned out to eventually be a successful
[00:40:09.599] experiment. But anyway, we got to do two
[00:40:11.440] experiments. We got pristine results
[00:40:14.800] even with them under there under the
[00:40:18.560] ocean water. So we know it's not
[00:40:20.920] ordinary electromagnetic functioning. So
[00:40:24.000] we can strike one thing off the list.
[00:40:26.720] Not that we know what to put on the list
[00:40:28.800] in its place other than you know it's
[00:40:31.760] it's it's got to be some new field some
[00:40:34.320] quantum aspect that we don't understand.
[00:40:36.560] Jen, we don't understand but yet you
[00:40:39.119] could repeat it. But we could repeat it.
[00:40:41.920] Wow. Now I I'll give you I'll give you
[00:40:44.000] another example of of of the skepticism
[00:40:47.200] that we got. And and by the way I I
[00:40:49.359] can't blame them. Uh we had some
[00:40:51.839] psychologists at uh
[00:40:54.040] SRRI and they said uh you've got that
[00:40:57.280] stupid ESP experiment stuff going on and
[00:41:00.560] you know this is going to ruin our
[00:41:01.640] reputation. People think that we're you
[00:41:03.839] know we're a non we're a nonsense place
[00:41:06.000] and so it's hurting our reputation. Of
[00:41:08.000] course they didn't know it was a highly
[00:41:09.359] classified CIA program. So anyway
[00:41:13.160] uh so our director said well what do you
[00:41:16.720] think? I mean, h how would you know if
[00:41:19.040] this is false or whatever? And he said,
[00:41:22.079] "Look, make a list of all experiments,
[00:41:25.839] places that have been uh
[00:41:33.640] investigated for those viewings,
[00:41:37.480] and don't tell us which ones go with
[00:41:39.839] which ones, and we'll try to rank rank
[00:41:42.319] them for
[00:41:43.240] each place." And so they did that much
[00:41:47.200] to their
[00:41:48.280] chagrin. Seven of the nine were first
[00:41:50.800] place matches in a nine experiment
[00:41:54.280] series. Give you another example of of
[00:41:57.200] and by the way I I I can't I can't
[00:41:59.440] complain about uh the skepticism. I mean
[00:42:02.960] even as we're doing all this uh we
[00:42:05.119] haven't lost our skepticism about how
[00:42:07.839] how could this be.
[00:42:10.440] Um, but we finally we got into a spot
[00:42:16.040] where the only thing that was secret
[00:42:18.079] about this program was that it was
[00:42:20.760] secret. People heard that we had these
[00:42:23.200] people coming in and doing experiments,
[00:42:25.040] but we weren't publishing anything. So,
[00:42:27.440] I went to the CIA contract minor and
[00:42:29.119] said, you know, you you've got to let us
[00:42:30.720] publish something because the only
[00:42:32.079] secret about this project is there's a
[00:42:33.599] secret project. So, if we publish
[00:42:36.040] something that that that'll handle that.
[00:42:38.640] Did you want to do that to get more
[00:42:39.920] scientists involved? Yes, that was our
[00:42:42.560] personal uh right aspect so that if
[00:42:45.119] there was actual data, more people who
[00:42:47.920] were on the outside skeptical would say,
[00:42:49.920] "Well, hold on. Why am I skeptical?
[00:42:52.319] Maybe perhaps there's something to
[00:42:53.760] this." And then you start considering
[00:42:55.280] your own life. These moments of
[00:42:57.200] intuition,
[00:42:58.720] weird coincidences. You're thinking
[00:43:01.119] about someone they call you. Yeah, we
[00:43:03.680] all have this idea that there's
[00:43:05.960] something there, but we don't know what
[00:43:08.240] it is. And but we're very skeptical of
[00:43:10.160] someone who tells us that they can do
[00:43:11.920] it. And that's that's reasonable to to
[00:43:14.800] think that way. And so in this case
[00:43:16.400] where we got permission to publish
[00:43:19.000] something since we're engineers Russell
[00:43:21.599] Tar my colleague and I are you know
[00:43:23.520] engineers and physicists we wrote it up
[00:43:26.240] for the uh proceedings the le e
[00:43:29.760] institute of electrical and electronics
[00:43:31.800] engineers. This is an engineering
[00:43:33.599] journal where we had published technical
[00:43:35.680] papers. So I said well we have a better
[00:43:37.599] chance there. Sent it off to them. the
[00:43:40.720] editor was head of communications at
[00:43:43.200] Bell Labs and he comes back and says,
[00:43:45.960] "Well, I don't I don't know." And we
[00:43:48.960] said, "Why are you getting bad reviews?"
[00:43:50.400] And he says, "Well, actually, I'm
[00:43:52.000] getting good reviews, but one really
[00:43:54.160] heavy hitter just gave me a one-s
[00:43:55.760] sentence review saying, "This is the
[00:43:58.079] kind of thing I wouldn't believe in even
[00:43:59.599] if it were true." What does that mean?
[00:44:03.119] So, anyway, we said, "Look, look, I I
[00:44:05.839] understand your problem.
[00:44:07.920] look, let us come and present this stuff
[00:44:10.319] to your engineers. If they throw
[00:44:12.560] tomatoes, okay, don't publish our paper,
[00:44:14.960] but if they like it, then then publish
[00:44:17.200] it. So, we went to Bell Labs, presented
[00:44:19.520] our data. The engineers were all excited
[00:44:22.160] trying to figure out what the mechanism
[00:44:23.680] could be and so on. So, we figured we
[00:44:26.000] were home free. He said, 'N I I still So
[00:44:29.920] then we pull out our trump card as
[00:44:33.119] always, which is, okay,
[00:44:35.240] look, do your own experiments at Bell
[00:44:37.640] Labs. Pick people from your engineers.
[00:44:41.760] Pick people from your offices to be to
[00:44:44.800] make up lists of targets. Pick people
[00:44:47.599] here to be your blind match group to see
[00:44:51.920] if they can match them up. And if you
[00:44:53.839] get results like we got, then publish
[00:44:56.720] it. If you don't, don't. He said, "Okay,
[00:45:00.240] that's that that's fair." So it turns
[00:45:02.640] out he did the whole thing, got the same
[00:45:05.119] kind of results we got. Our paper got
[00:45:07.359] published 1976 proceedings of the Ile E.
[00:45:10.720] And so that suddenly got other people
[00:45:13.520] saying, "Okay, well maybe there really
[00:45:15.280] is something to this." So it turns out
[00:45:18.359] that for those who follow the field know
[00:45:21.359] that Robert John and Brenda Dunn, Robert
[00:45:24.400] John was uh head of engineering at
[00:45:27.960] Princeton. He had a student who wanted
[00:45:30.240] to do these kind of experiments and he
[00:45:31.839] thought it was nonsense but they came
[00:45:33.280] out and heard our briefing and he went
[00:45:35.200] back. Long story short, he set up a I
[00:45:37.520] don't know 20-year program uh completely
[00:45:41.359] replicating our remote viewing work and
[00:45:44.000] also doing uh effects on random number
[00:45:48.880] generators that were quantum driven. And
[00:45:51.200] so so the so-called PAR lab, Princeton
[00:45:54.800] Engineering Anomalies Research Lab,
[00:45:57.440] replicated all of our work. And so
[00:45:59.359] pretty soon it it's all over the place.
[00:46:02.560] So, by the way, at the end of the uh
[00:46:06.800] sort of cold war there where there was a
[00:46:10.319] day
[00:46:11.319] taunt, some of our remote viewers went
[00:46:13.839] over to Russia to talk to their remote
[00:46:15.839] viewers and they traded war stories.
[00:46:18.640] They they uh lived through the same kind
[00:46:20.960] of kind of thing. So, there it is. It's
[00:46:24.400] so interesting that we almost didn't
[00:46:26.960] consider that. Just imagine you not
[00:46:30.160] running into Ingo Swan. You not asking
[00:46:33.440] him to affect that quantum chip.
[00:46:37.319] Imagine where Russia's doing all this
[00:46:39.760] stuff and the United States never gets
[00:46:41.119] involved in it at all. That that could
[00:46:43.359] have happened. That could have happened.
[00:46:45.119] I mean, it was really, you know, the
[00:46:47.839] tiniest flip of a coin that that that
[00:46:50.400] happened. So, so what that means is uh
[00:46:53.680] for me personally is that even though I
[00:46:55.839] had no interest in in all that kind of
[00:46:57.880] stuff, this totally random event
[00:47:01.079] happened and then once I've built up a
[00:47:03.839] reputation for being willing to take on
[00:47:06.240] things that are impossible, then that's
[00:47:08.560] why uh when the UAP the UFO issue uh
[00:47:13.040] kind of rose up again, who you going to
[00:47:15.520] call though? Al put up. Al I I get my
[00:47:18.800] call. So what was the initial
[00:47:20.800] introduction to the UAP
[00:47:23.000] phenomenon and when was this?
[00:47:26.240] Well, there was an early introduction in
[00:47:29.880] uh 2004.
[00:47:34.520] Uh well may maybe a little earlier in in
[00:47:37.599] the 90s I was doing work for Robert
[00:47:41.599] Bigalow at Bigalow
[00:47:43.240] Aerospace and uh in addition to his you
[00:47:46.800] know aerospace stuff he put
[00:47:50.920] two units uh circling the earth and he
[00:47:54.400] made the
[00:47:56.520] uh module that got attached to the space
[00:47:59.440] station all that kind of stuff. but he
[00:48:01.119] was also very much interested in UFOs
[00:48:03.760] and that kind of thing. And so I was I
[00:48:06.880] was uh you know involved with
[00:48:09.240] him. And around that time I had gotten a
[00:48:13.119] call from somebody I knew in Washington
[00:48:15.680] DC, head of a think tank. Uh I can't
[00:48:19.280] name him, but he said, "Uh, I need you
[00:48:21.119] to come to Washington to be part of a
[00:48:25.920] little project, a little briefing." And
[00:48:28.960] I said, "No, I don't have the time right
[00:48:32.720] now. I'm just I'm just too busy." He
[00:48:34.800] says, 'Look, come and it'll be the most
[00:48:37.760] important meeting you've ever had in
[00:48:39.760] your
[00:48:40.680] life. Well, since I had him calibrated
[00:48:44.960] because I had done other work with him
[00:48:47.280] and for the Navy and so on, I said,
[00:48:49.920] "Okay, I I'll I'll come." So, so I
[00:48:52.480] showed up
[00:48:53.480] there
[00:48:55.400] and I saw people some of whom I knew,
[00:48:58.559] including my ex-contract monitor from
[00:49:01.000] CIA, people from DIA,
[00:49:05.160] uh, a lot of military people and so on.
[00:49:08.559] So, he sat us all down and he said,
[00:49:10.839] "Okay, here's the deal. Here's why I've
[00:49:13.520] invited you all here.
[00:49:18.960] Let's just say he
[00:49:21.880] says that the United States, Russia, and
[00:49:27.000] China have
[00:49:32.359] obtained ET
[00:49:34.520] craft that have
[00:49:37.079] crashed
[00:49:38.599] and we have proof of
[00:49:42.040] that. Bodies that aren't
[00:49:44.599] human. And so the question is, can this
[00:49:47.839] be released to the public? What effect
[00:49:51.119] would it
[00:49:52.200] have? So I and and the other people, I
[00:49:55.680] found out by talking to him later, we
[00:49:57.440] thought, "Oh, this is cool. I mean,
[00:49:59.520] maybe we can get, you know, some kind of
[00:50:01.119] disclosure here." And
[00:50:03.800] uh so he said, "Here's here's what we're
[00:50:06.079] going to do.
[00:50:07.760] We're going to make up a list of what
[00:50:10.880] would be
[00:50:12.359] affected in the culture with this kind
[00:50:15.520] of a
[00:50:17.160] disclosure. And by the way, at this
[00:50:19.040] point, we still didn't know is is he
[00:50:20.800] saying that that's true stuff or is he
[00:50:23.359] this a hypothetical or anyway? So
[00:50:26.520] anyway, make a list. So we came up with
[00:50:29.040] a long list like I don't know 60 items
[00:50:30.960] or something. You say, "Oh, wow. uh
[00:50:33.040] stock market might be affected,
[00:50:34.800] religious might be affected,
[00:50:37.240] uh you know whatever government
[00:50:41.280] government affected, policies be
[00:50:44.440] affected, you know, politics would
[00:50:47.200] certainly be affected and then for each
[00:50:49.280] item we had to go give it a score from
[00:50:52.480] plus 9 to minus 9 as to how intense the
[00:50:55.760] effect would be and whether it's
[00:50:57.920] positive or negative. So anyway, we
[00:51:00.160] broke up into groups and our group had
[00:51:02.000] our list of eight or so. And so we went
[00:51:06.079] down our list and it turned out
[00:51:08.760] that we ended up saying
[00:51:11.960] getting negative numbers. And let let me
[00:51:14.880] let me tell you why you you can get
[00:51:16.559] negative numbers. One of the things down
[00:51:19.920] toward the bottom of the list and we
[00:51:21.280] really got into the weeds
[00:51:23.240] was well suppose materials from a crash
[00:51:28.920] retrieval of a non human craft was given
[00:51:33.599] to corporation A but corporation B
[00:51:37.280] didn't get any samples and then years
[00:51:40.640] later corporation A is making lots of
[00:51:42.960] money based on what they got meanwhile
[00:51:45.119] corporation B has gone bankrupt and and
[00:51:47.760] Then they find out they were excluded.
[00:51:50.640] Well, they're going to end up suing the
[00:51:52.319] corporations, suing the government. I
[00:51:54.800] mean, it really gets gnarly when you get
[00:51:56.640] get into the weeds and into the details.
[00:51:58.800] And so, as it turns out with our group
[00:52:01.359] of eight or so, we said, you know, this
[00:52:03.839] this we get a negative number. Well, it
[00:52:05.599] turned out that all the groups got
[00:52:06.720] negative numbers. So, the outcome of
[00:52:08.880] that exercise was if you're thinking
[00:52:11.119] about
[00:52:11.880] disclosure, forget it. That's Was this
[00:52:14.480] during George Herbert Walker Bush's? No,
[00:52:17.680] it was during Bush 2. Bush too. George
[00:52:20.880] Bush, rather. George Bush. Yeah. W. Um,
[00:52:23.640] so when this was all going
[00:52:27.400] on, you still didn't know what they had.
[00:52:31.440] Didn't know what they had. This was just
[00:52:34.160] they were saying this could be
[00:52:35.440] hypothetical or he could be trying to
[00:52:37.119] tell us something, but he wouldn't say.
[00:52:39.359] So interesting. And how long how much
[00:52:41.440] time did they give you to compile this
[00:52:43.040] list and to generate these numbers of
[00:52:44.960] plus and minus? It was two or three
[00:52:46.559] days. I I don't uh recall right now. How
[00:52:49.520] did you attribute numbers to things like
[00:52:51.760] the stock market? How did you figure out
[00:52:53.680] how that would be negatively or
[00:52:55.839] positively? You know, it was just a gut
[00:52:58.400] response basically. Uh you remote viewed
[00:53:00.800] it. No, no, didn't do that. No, but did
[00:53:04.720] you? By the way, in the remote viewing
[00:53:06.240] program, one of the things they told us,
[00:53:08.319] look, you guys that are running this
[00:53:10.400] program, don't you ever think about
[00:53:12.720] remote viewing yourself. We learned in
[00:53:15.280] the LSD days that if the experimenters
[00:53:18.160] get involved in the subject they're
[00:53:19.839] researching, they lose their
[00:53:21.880] objectivity. And don't think you can
[00:53:24.000] sneak away and get away with it because
[00:53:25.839] we'll get you on the polygraph. And so,
[00:53:27.839] so no, never never did. Don't remote
[00:53:30.160] view yourself. What What a bizarre thing
[00:53:32.480] to tell someone. That's what they that's
[00:53:34.400] what they said. So So anyway, but
[00:53:36.240] anyway, back back to this uh we so we
[00:53:39.520] came up with our numbers and and said,
[00:53:41.359] you know, this does not look like a good
[00:53:43.040] idea. So at that time, that that was the
[00:53:46.760] viewpoint. Now, as we'll get into at
[00:53:49.760] this point, I have a different
[00:53:51.200] viewpoint. I think there should be more
[00:53:54.599] disclosure than than uh is apparent in
[00:53:58.000] Well, I think that's that's much more
[00:54:00.800] common much more common. thought is more
[00:54:03.520] more common with not just academics but
[00:54:06.319] even government people even government
[00:54:07.920] people right I think more in fact I have
[00:54:09.760] I have a great example of that and that
[00:54:11.520] is uh Edward Teller father of the Hbomb
[00:54:16.880] uh involved in the Manhattan project
[00:54:19.599] you'd think if anybody wanted to keep
[00:54:21.760] secrets about national security it would
[00:54:23.680] be
[00:54:24.280] him one of the strongest statements he
[00:54:26.800] made which actually was kind of a driver
[00:54:28.720] in my shifting my viewpoint about well
[00:54:30.960] should we come out with this or
[00:54:32.680] not he said you
[00:54:35.240] know in exploring uh nuclear energy we
[00:54:40.000] had the Manhattan project highly
[00:54:42.520] classified but nonetheless we and the
[00:54:45.119] Russians kind of marched along step by
[00:54:48.520] step
[00:54:50.040] but in
[00:54:51.960] electronics we didn't classify
[00:54:54.760] electronics you know circuit boards and
[00:54:56.960] all that kind of stuff and we took off
[00:54:58.720] like a rocket and left Russ Russia in
[00:55:00.640] the dust
[00:55:02.079] So his viewpoint was that having more
[00:55:05.599] openness even in national security areas
[00:55:08.800] is a better bet. And so that made me
[00:55:12.000] think even though I'd been part of, as
[00:55:14.720] it turns out, decadesl
[00:55:17.480] long, highly
[00:55:19.319] classified not for the street
[00:55:22.760] UAP investigations.
[00:55:25.839] uh that that sort of affected my
[00:55:28.240] thinking about it and I became more uh
[00:55:30.400] open to the idea that uh you know we
[00:55:32.880] should do that. So but the way uh the
[00:55:35.280] way I I got actually more officially
[00:55:37.240] involved was that as it turns out in
[00:55:41.559] 2008 I think it
[00:55:44.599] was Harry Reid who was at the time
[00:55:47.920] Senate Majority Leader. uh Daniel Inui
[00:55:51.880] from Hawaii, Ted Stevens from
[00:55:55.559] Alaska. Uh they're part of the gang of
[00:55:58.960] eight, so-called, so they get better
[00:56:01.359] briefings than most people on what's
[00:56:03.760] going on behind the
[00:56:05.400] scenes. So at that point, you might
[00:56:10.200] think, well, UFO stuff, I mean, that's
[00:56:13.359] all dead. Let me give you a little
[00:56:15.040] background first and that is you know
[00:56:17.359] back in the 50s and 60s we had project
[00:56:20.240] sign project grudge project blue book
[00:56:24.000] and then they had the condant committee
[00:56:26.160] at University of Colorado examine the
[00:56:29.200] area and say uh he came out with this
[00:56:32.160] thing saying oh there's nothing here
[00:56:34.559] it's not not worth the air force
[00:56:35.920] spending any time on it actually the
[00:56:38.880] Condan report if you read it there's a
[00:56:42.240] deep report showing all kinds of reasons
[00:56:44.799] why this is real. And then there's the
[00:56:46.880] forward which most media read in which
[00:56:50.160] he said, "Oh, nothing here. Don't worry
[00:56:52.240] about it." So after 1969, which is when
[00:56:56.720] that report came out, if you called uh
[00:56:59.920] Air Force uh public affairs off and
[00:57:02.240] said, "Well, what's going on with UFOs?"
[00:57:04.400] Oh, no, no, we give up all that stuff.
[00:57:06.319] uh back in 1969. The truth of the matter
[00:57:08.799] is that the very memo that cancelled
[00:57:11.440] Blue Book by General Bolander
[00:57:15.520] uh had down the fine print, but anything
[00:57:18.720] that might affect national security, we
[00:57:21.359] should keep track of. So, so now we come
[00:57:24.640] up to, you know,
[00:57:27.400] 2017. These senators who knew that there
[00:57:30.799] was still stuff going on decided there
[00:57:33.200] should be a new program. And so they
[00:57:36.160] asked uh the top physicists at DIA, Jim
[00:57:42.799] Latsky,
[00:57:44.319] uh who is one of the top physicists on
[00:57:46.880] propulsion and rocketry and so on to put
[00:57:49.920] out a request for proposal. And so that
[00:57:53.920] went out and so actually Robert Bigalow
[00:57:56.319] picked it up and he said, "Okay, we'll
[00:57:59.119] we'll do this." And so,
[00:58:02.200] uh, he then got the program and since
[00:58:06.160] I'd been involved with Bigalow, he asked
[00:58:08.480] me to be part of the program. So, that's
[00:58:10.799] when I got, you might say, officially
[00:58:12.640] involved in and really digging into the
[00:58:15.680] the issue. And what was your perspective
[00:58:17.520] at that point? So, you you had this
[00:58:20.079] thing during the George Bush
[00:58:21.559] administration and what was your
[00:58:24.559] perspective after that conversation? Did
[00:58:27.119] you
[00:58:28.440] think what maybe they do have something
[00:58:31.839] the crash Roswell site maybe something
[00:58:34.079] else? Did you know more from other
[00:58:36.400] talking to other people? Had you heard
[00:58:38.319] whispers? Like what did you know? What I
[00:58:41.359] knew was not much. I mean yeah I heard
[00:58:45.520] whispers. Uh but I didn't get you know
[00:58:49.599] really involved in in thinking about it.
[00:58:51.599] I mean, you know, a good physicist
[00:58:54.000] realizes this is tinfoil hat conspiracy
[00:58:56.480] stuff, you know. But you had already had
[00:58:58.400] experience with remote viewing
[00:59:00.599] seem already got that problem.
[00:59:05.280] So
[00:59:06.280] uh but when they came up with the idea
[00:59:08.960] we should do another deeper dive into
[00:59:11.520] this and by that time I was uh you know
[00:59:15.920] I mean as a physicist I mean through the
[00:59:18.640] years I mean I was a Star Trek fan and
[00:59:21.040] you know Star Trek fan and all that kind
[00:59:23.280] of stuff and uh as a physicist uh I
[00:59:27.040] would hear about these UFO sightings and
[00:59:29.440] so on. So, I always wondered about, you
[00:59:32.880] know, how how how can this
[00:59:35.079] uh you know, could somebody really have
[00:59:38.240] any kind of propulsion that that would
[00:59:40.079] look like that? And so anyway,
[00:59:43.240] uh so when this program got set up, it
[00:59:47.359] turned out my
[00:59:48.839] particular assignment was
[00:59:55.319] okay, let's look at all the physics and
[00:59:58.000] engineering that might be behind this
[01:00:01.000] stuff. And by the way, we will arrange
[01:00:04.240] for you to get access to some
[01:00:07.319] materials. Uh okay, fine. So that that
[01:00:11.520] was my tasking and so I said, "Okay." So
[01:00:14.559] I can't get into a lot of detail, but I
[01:00:17.119] did
[01:00:18.599] uh do a lot of
[01:00:21.079] uh back and forth with some aerospace
[01:00:24.240] executives about getting access in case
[01:00:26.960] they had any materials and that kind of
[01:00:29.760] stuff. And it's
[01:00:31.720] very So they finally said, "No, it's uh
[01:00:35.280] if that were the case, it would be too
[01:00:36.760] compartmentalized. We we we can't share
[01:00:39.119] this even though you have an official
[01:00:40.799] program. I mean, you got Top Secret,
[01:00:43.480] SCI, Gamma, HCS, it's got all these
[01:00:48.119] clearances,
[01:00:49.960] but if we had materials, it'd be too
[01:00:53.119] highly classified. We We couldn't share
[01:00:55.680] them. Geez. So, a lot of negotiation
[01:00:58.160] went on. I'm a lot of time with the vice
[01:01:00.480] president unless there's something to
[01:01:02.079] negotiate about. Exactly. If there was
[01:01:04.720] nothing to negotiate about, you'd say,
[01:01:06.200] "How? We don't have materials." You
[01:01:08.799] wouldn't say, "You don't have enough
[01:01:10.160] clearance for us to even discuss this."
[01:01:12.319] Exactly. And so already they're tipping
[01:01:14.480] their hat. They're already tipping their
[01:01:16.000] hat. So anyway, the second uh place to
[01:01:20.720] go then was
[01:01:23.480] okay, they're not going to share their
[01:01:26.280] materials. I'm almost assuredly have
[01:01:29.440] them. Um suppose they had shared them.
[01:01:33.599] What would we have
[01:01:35.400] done? Well, we would have gone to
[01:01:37.680] subject matter experts all around the
[01:01:39.720] world. We'd give them some materials.
[01:01:42.720] We'd say, you know, this came from a
[01:01:46.000] Russian sub or, you know, whatever. Give
[01:01:49.520] us your best output and so on.
[01:01:52.400] So I said, "Okay, since we're not able
[01:01:54.960] to get materials and share them,
[01:01:59.880] um, let me go to all of the subject
[01:02:03.760] matter experts that we would have gone
[01:02:05.799] to and
[01:02:08.200] say, we're doing a survey for Bigalow
[01:02:11.559] Aerospace. He wants to know where were
[01:02:13.920] your field
[01:02:15.160] be in the year 2050."
[01:02:18.880] So, we figured, okay, we'd get the best
[01:02:21.040] sort of assessment of possible futures
[01:02:24.160] for their fields. And and
[01:02:27.799] uh I realize you probably don't uh have
[01:02:31.359] immediate access to this, but just to
[01:02:33.680] give you an
[01:02:35.319] idea some of the papers that we got by
[01:02:38.240] going out to these people. I mean, and
[01:02:40.160] you'll see how serious we were. A
[01:02:42.640] neutronic fusion
[01:02:44.200] propulsion, superconductors and gravity
[01:02:47.319] research, posetron aerospace
[01:02:50.200] propulsion, warp drive, dark energy,
[01:02:52.799] extra
[01:02:53.720] dimensions, advanced nuclear propulsion.
[01:02:56.079] Jamie's got it up here. Yeah. So, so
[01:02:58.799] this is just the first few of
[01:03:01.799] 38 papers that I uh arranged for leaders
[01:03:06.720] to to come up with. So this is based on
[01:03:09.680] projections from where technology
[01:03:12.160] currently sits to if you extrapolate
[01:03:14.640] where it's going to be in 2050 based on
[01:03:17.119] what they're working on, right?
[01:03:19.680] Spacetime metric engineering,
[01:03:21.440] traversible wormholes, stargates. So you
[01:03:24.400] see, we weren't uh kidding around. Well,
[01:03:27.200] when you started getting the warp drive,
[01:03:28.960] dark energy, extra dimensions,
[01:03:34.000] brain machine interfaces. Now, did you
[01:03:36.319] ask any of these? So presumably, this is
[01:03:39.359] just me from a civilian's perspective.
[01:03:41.280] Presumably, you have some sort of a
[01:03:42.880] crash thing, you have to bring in people
[01:03:46.319] who make spaceships. You have to bring
[01:03:49.599] in people who
[01:03:51.160] make military jets, advanced propulsion
[01:03:55.680] systems. Exactly. That's those are the
[01:03:58.319] people that would be able to the people
[01:04:00.799] we had uh working on those papers were
[01:04:03.839] people from those communities. How did
[01:04:05.599] they ch this is the the conundrum that
[01:04:08.160] if they did disclose and the companies
[01:04:09.839] that weren't given access to these
[01:04:11.200] materials did fall apart and that the
[01:04:13.680] companies that got access to these
[01:04:15.200] materials advanced and had spectacular
[01:04:19.640] businesses. How do they decide who it
[01:04:23.440] just assuming you would have something?
[01:04:25.200] How would you decide? Was it based
[01:04:27.960] on relationships like knowing that
[01:04:30.880] someone could keep a secret? Like cuz
[01:04:33.280] you're dealing with outside the
[01:04:34.559] government now. Presumably if you if you
[01:04:37.200] have a defense contractor, they're
[01:04:39.359] that's an independent company. It's not
[01:04:41.920] necessarily even though they work
[01:04:43.680] handinand glove with the the government,
[01:04:46.319] they're not necessarily a part of the
[01:04:48.079] government. So So in fact, if you put
[01:04:51.680] your thinking cap on, you would say,
[01:04:55.079] okay, this would be the way if you want
[01:04:58.000] to keep it out of the public because you
[01:05:00.559] don't have to disclose it. Yeah. You
[01:05:01.920] don't have to give it to a contractor.
[01:05:03.680] Say, "Okay, this is this is your stuff
[01:05:05.520] and uh from now on you own it." But how
[01:05:08.400] do you control that though? You you'd
[01:05:10.160] have to have government agents embedded
[01:05:12.240] deeply in that, which I assume they do
[01:05:14.960] anyway. But you'd have to have
[01:05:16.880] intelligence agents deep I hope they do
[01:05:20.480] deeply embedded in these defense
[01:05:23.039] contractors where they would make sure
[01:05:25.119] that they maintain some sort of intense
[01:05:27.760] level of secrecy.
[01:05:30.000] That's exactly right. And uh when you
[01:05:32.720] think about okay uh these days well
[01:05:35.680] suppose we have some kind of disclosure
[01:05:40.920] uh what are these companies going to do?
[01:05:43.520] They've been hiding things or various
[01:05:45.359] parts of the government been hiding
[01:05:46.960] things um misappropriating funds lying
[01:05:49.760] to Congress lying to Congress. So it's
[01:05:52.720] you can see why it's such a big problem
[01:05:55.440] at this point. Well, that was that um
[01:05:57.920] disclosure documentary that uh I saw you
[01:06:00.400] in as well that appeared at uh South by
[01:06:02.960] Southwest, which was excellent. What is
[01:06:04.640] it called? It's called uh The Age of
[01:06:06.559] Disclosure. Amazing documentary. It's
[01:06:08.960] amazing documentary. Really hope that
[01:06:10.559] gets released somewhere big like Netflix
[01:06:12.960] or something like that. So people Well,
[01:06:14.480] I think uh I think Dan Farah, who's the
[01:06:17.920] uh director and producer of that, by the
[01:06:21.039] way, a very well-known producer, you
[01:06:22.960] know, he he collaborated with Steven
[01:06:24.799] Spielberg on Ready Player One, which is
[01:06:27.280] the big hit, and so on. And the approach
[01:06:30.319] he used which is really very clever uh
[01:06:34.240] he contacted people like me people
[01:06:38.200] uh like Lou Alzando on and on and on and
[01:06:43.520] uh said you know many of you don't want
[01:06:46.720] to come out really and reveal too
[01:06:49.799] much podcast by podcast by podcast. So
[01:06:53.839] tell you
[01:06:54.839] what my goal he says I'm going to
[01:06:58.559] approach 38 of the maximum insiders and
[01:07:03.359] by maximum insiders I mean it includes
[01:07:05.839] people like you
[01:07:07.480] know Senator Rubio of course secretary
[01:07:11.200] of state um Clapper who's you know
[01:07:16.599] and I'm going to get all of you to
[01:07:19.520] collaborate on saying what your
[01:07:21.359] involvement was to agree you can and you
[01:07:23.440] know, not say something and they ended
[01:07:25.119] up going to jail. And uh and then we'll
[01:07:28.079] put out maximum
[01:07:30.920] disclosure evidence all at one time in
[01:07:35.599] this
[01:07:36.599] film and it'll include uh people coming
[01:07:39.920] forward like Jay Stratton who is head of
[01:07:42.799] the UAP task force. Uh he's been
[01:07:45.920] involved in this field for 16 years. By
[01:07:49.359] the way, he has a book about to come out
[01:07:51.680] also, which will really be a disclosure.
[01:07:55.760] So, anyways, we'll put this
[01:07:58.200] together. We won't talk about it along
[01:08:00.720] the way. And so, 38 of us ended up being
[01:08:05.359] interviewed for the film. Um, telling
[01:08:08.960] whatever role we felt we could tell. So,
[01:08:12.160] in fact, when that film comes out, that
[01:08:14.000] that's going to be disclosure on
[01:08:15.440] steroids. I think that's going to be the
[01:08:17.520] maximum. And well, you saw the film, so
[01:08:19.839] you know, it's it's pretty pretty
[01:08:21.839] revealing. It's very well done. Yeah,
[01:08:23.359] very well done. So, for your own
[01:08:25.319] personal journey into this stuff, you're
[01:08:28.080] initially introduced to it because
[01:08:29.839] they're talking about disclosure. You
[01:08:31.920] rate the pros and cons and then when do
[01:08:35.759] you get introduced to it again?
[01:08:38.880] Well, it was when basically when Robert
[01:08:41.600] Bigalow uh got the contract that uh
[01:08:45.359] Harry Reid and the other senators uh
[01:08:48.000] asked. And how many how much time has
[01:08:49.520] passed? Well, that was in 2008.
[01:08:55.279] So, a couple and
[01:08:57.400] so that went up through
[01:09:01.319] 2012 and then ATIP, which you may have
[01:09:04.480] heard of that Lisando ran sort of picked
[01:09:07.199] up there to keep the ball rolling
[01:09:09.040] forward. And now it's been revealed by
[01:09:12.080] the way uh only only recently that when
[01:09:16.719] the funding dried
[01:09:18.679] up, it dried up for the reasons you
[01:09:21.199] might think of and that
[01:09:23.000] is it was so highly
[01:09:26.120] classified that when congressional
[01:09:28.560] statements came down that okay we need
[01:09:30.799] so much money for
[01:09:32.199] this it didn't actually describe it was
[01:09:34.799] just advanced propulsion and all that
[01:09:36.640] kind of stuff. So another group picked
[01:09:38.880] up the money and said oh well that's
[01:09:40.640] what we're working on propulsion things
[01:09:42.480] so you know but it wasn't the real deal
[01:09:46.480] and so you know what do you do at that
[01:09:48.239] point do you go now wait a minute this
[01:09:50.000] was really for this well no then you'd
[01:09:51.759] be re revealing what this was really for
[01:09:53.839] so so anyway that sort of uh ended that
[01:09:56.880] way but anyway so based on that we then
[01:10:00.159] as a
[01:10:01.480] group went to as a turns out the
[01:10:05.600] department of homeland security to set
[01:10:08.239] up a whole new program and uh it was
[01:10:11.840] going to be a special access
[01:10:14.440] program. It was under a name which can
[01:10:18.159] now be revealed
[01:10:19.560] because arrow the
[01:10:22.440] advanced aerospace or let's see advanced
[01:10:26.400] anomalies aerospace resolution office
[01:10:28.560] has revealed it. It was called Kona
[01:10:31.480] Blue. And uh we built up a stack of
[01:10:34.640] documents that would go to the ceiling
[01:10:36.800] here about what needed to be done, what
[01:10:38.800] we were going to do, how it should be
[01:10:40.719] done, who should be involved. Uh so at
[01:10:44.000] this point, you're convinced that this
[01:10:45.600] is a real phenomenon. At this point, I'm
[01:10:47.600] convinced that there's a real phenomena.
[01:10:50.000] I mean, you know, how far can I go? I
[01:10:52.719] mean, I can I I can
[01:10:55.080] say I interacted with, for example, Dave
[01:10:58.159] Grush that you've had on your program
[01:11:00.400] before who is really a highlevel
[01:11:03.280] intelligence officer. People in the
[01:11:05.440] public can hardly have any idea how high
[01:11:09.280] a level intelligence officer he was. He
[01:11:12.080] prepared briefings for the president. He
[01:11:15.040] was uh top UAP investigator for NRO, the
[01:11:20.880] National Reconnaissance Office, and then
[01:11:23.120] transferred over to NGA, the National
[01:11:26.480] Geospatial Intelligence Office, and so
[01:11:28.480] on. And so in that
[01:11:30.520] role, he was asked, he was an official
[01:11:33.520] part of the UAP task force, asked by Jay
[01:11:35.960] Stratton to find out what's going on
[01:11:38.480] behind the scenes at these
[01:11:40.640] superclassified levels. And he did. And
[01:11:44.480] uh so that's why, you know, he
[01:11:46.080] eventually came out in that August 2023
[01:11:51.840] congressional hearing under oath saying,
[01:11:54.679] "Yep, I've talked to more than 40 people
[01:11:58.560] who are directly involved in the
[01:12:00.679] program." Well, I know Dave. I know many
[01:12:04.159] of the people. I know many of the
[01:12:05.520] programs that uh he's involved in. And
[01:12:07.920] so, there really is something to it. And
[01:12:10.400] uh it's only a matter of time before it
[01:12:12.960] comes out. I don't think I don't think
[01:12:14.480] you can put the toothpaste back into the
[01:12:16.640] tube, frankly. Well, it seems like
[01:12:18.239] people don't want to. Uh, and I think
[01:12:20.880] there's so many more people that are
[01:12:22.640] openly discussing the possibility or
[01:12:25.760] what this is, maybe not even the
[01:12:27.679] possibility of it, but but addressing
[01:12:29.679] that there's something going on. So,
[01:12:31.360] what is it? Is it
[01:12:33.480] interdimensional? Is it intergalactic?
[01:12:36.480] Like, what is it?
[01:12:38.719] That's that's just such an excellent
[01:12:41.320] question because the problem is there's
[01:12:43.760] an embarrassment of
[01:12:45.960] riches these
[01:12:48.199] craft you know which in the old days you
[01:12:51.120] know farmer in the fields that someone
[01:12:53.520] was streaking across the sky and you
[01:12:55.440] know I don't know what to think you know
[01:12:58.159] you could sort of blow it off but
[01:13:00.239] because our
[01:13:01.640] own detection equipment has really
[01:13:05.760] marched up into unbelievable
[01:13:08.840] sophistication. Uh and so now we have
[01:13:11.360] these really advanced sensor systems.
[01:13:14.159] Fleer forward-looking infrared radar,
[01:13:16.960] high quality
[01:13:18.120] radars, satellites. Ratcliffe has ad
[01:13:22.080] mention has has admitted that satellites
[01:13:24.480] have picked up uh evidence of these of
[01:13:28.320] these
[01:13:29.480] craft and these craft have interfered
[01:13:32.239] with uh military
[01:13:35.800] exercises as we all know from uh say the
[01:13:40.159] Nimtts and the gimbal and the go fast
[01:13:42.400] videos that you know made it out into
[01:13:44.480] the public in in 2017.
[01:13:49.640] Um, so it's it's really out there now at
[01:13:52.880] this point that there that there's that
[01:13:55.120] there's a reality here. And so,
[01:13:58.760] uh, that's where we are at this point.
[01:14:01.280] One of the more spectacular ones you um
[01:14:03.840] talked about the Nimtts, the the
[01:14:05.760] Commander David Fraver experience. So
[01:14:08.640] they're flying over the water out
[01:14:12.159] outside of San Diego outside San Diego
[01:14:14.080] and they think they see something below
[01:14:16.560] the surface and which is large and then
[01:14:20.760] this 20 foot tic tac looking thing
[01:14:24.719] that's hovering over the water that
[01:14:26.960] seems to turn towards them and recognize
[01:14:29.280] that they're uh it jams their radar. It
[01:14:33.840] does something to block their ability to
[01:14:36.880] detect it. They have it on screen. They
[01:14:39.120] have video of this thing. There's
[01:14:40.640] eyewitnesses of this thing. They track
[01:14:42.480] it on radar going from above 50,000 feet
[01:14:45.679] down to sea level in a second. They they
[01:14:49.520] don't know what it is. It takes off at
[01:14:51.679] an insane rate of speed. It goes to the
[01:14:54.320] cat point where they were supposed to
[01:14:55.679] meet up. So, they have all this data
[01:14:59.199] about this thing that behaves in a way
[01:15:01.040] that's impossible with our current
[01:15:03.440] understanding of propulsion systems,
[01:15:05.360] right? And of course in the program we
[01:15:08.239] interviewed uh the pilots about their
[01:15:10.239] experiences and so on and and so you
[01:15:13.040] can't blame a pilot. He says look this
[01:15:14.640] thing was at you know 80,000 ft or
[01:15:16.640] whatever when he first detected it.
[01:15:18.719] Suddenly it's down there right above the
[01:15:20.560] water and then it takes off and does a
[01:15:23.199] right angle turn at Mach 3. Uh you know
[01:15:26.960] this stuff is just way beyond our
[01:15:29.000] physics. Of course to a physics nerd
[01:15:31.280] like me. So yeah now wait a minute if
[01:15:33.520] it's real it's physics. right? Can't be
[01:15:36.480] beyond our beyond our understanding, but
[01:15:38.560] it's beyond our engineering. So, in
[01:15:41.120] fact, in that series of uh papers I
[01:15:44.159] showed you that the 30 38 papers, by the
[01:15:47.199] way, um there's a little side story
[01:15:50.480] there. It's interesting. And those 38
[01:15:52.560] papers were then posted. None none of
[01:15:54.640] these people who generated those papers
[01:15:56.880] had any idea it had to do with ETSs or
[01:15:59.199] UFOs or whatever.
[01:16:01.640] Uh they all went up on what's called the
[01:16:04.480] Jaywick server. It's classified server
[01:16:06.800] for the Pentagon and uh intelligence
[01:16:09.679] officers and aerospace contractors uh
[01:16:12.159] you know could get access but nobody in
[01:16:14.560] the public could and usually those
[01:16:16.880] things go up and they're up for you know
[01:16:19.520] a little while and a month or so and
[01:16:22.000] they take them down. This was such a
[01:16:24.400] popular set, this 38 papers, such
[01:16:26.560] popular set that everybody screamed
[01:16:28.719] every time they tried to take it down.
[01:16:30.480] And so it was posted there, you know,
[01:16:32.960] like forever. Uh but eventually uh
[01:16:36.400] through Freedom of Information Act and
[01:16:38.080] so on, most of those papers have have
[01:16:40.480] have uh been released. And I I was
[01:16:44.400] concerned that oh my god, these guys are
[01:16:46.000] all going to call me up and say, "What?
[01:16:47.920] You didn't tell me this had anything to
[01:16:49.360] do with ETSs or UFOs or but actually no.
[01:16:52.880] Nobody seemed to uh yeah not not
[01:16:55.360] complain about it. So back to the
[01:16:58.000] question that you mentioned a little
[01:16:59.280] earlier though about you know what's the
[01:17:01.440] source of this? Like I said it's an
[01:17:03.520] embarrassment of riches. There's so much
[01:17:06.560] observation
[01:17:08.640] uh you know the idea that it may be a
[01:17:12.080] scout coming by from some other planet
[01:17:14.320] and checking us out and heading off uh
[01:17:16.800] or whatever. I mean there's much more
[01:17:19.920] than that. And of course, as you know
[01:17:21.520] from interviewing Jacqu Valet, he dug
[01:17:24.560] into the literature and found out, you
[01:17:26.080] know, you can go back millennia and see
[01:17:29.520] descriptions of exactly what we're
[01:17:32.159] talking about today.
[01:17:34.760] So as as far as where they come from,
[01:17:39.600] what they're doing here, I myself have
[01:17:42.560] written a paper called
[01:17:45.320] ultraterrestrials where I try to cover
[01:17:47.360] the
[01:17:48.120] gamut and I cover everything. Yeah, they
[01:17:51.040] could
[01:17:52.280] be spacecraft from some other galaxy
[01:17:55.920] whipping through here. Uh or maybe
[01:17:59.280] there's some Atlanteans left over from
[01:18:01.760] eons ago. and they're just kind of
[01:18:04.159] hiding out in the seabed or on some
[01:18:06.800] mountain range someplace. Or maybe some
[01:18:09.440] ET group uh showed up here thousand
[01:18:13.199] 2,000 3,000 years ago and they're hiding
[01:18:16.719] out with some bases locally and so on.
[01:18:19.920] Uh and of course we have a fellow by the
[01:18:22.400] name of a professor by the name of
[01:18:23.600] Masters who who thinks that well maybe
[01:18:25.840] it's uh time travelers from the future
[01:18:28.080] coming back. And then there's the whole
[01:18:30.960] idea since physicists like to talk about
[01:18:33.120] in additional dimensions you know maybe
[01:18:35.440] they come from another. So anyway then
[01:18:37.840] in my ultraterrestrials paper I list
[01:18:40.320] every one I can think of and say you
[01:18:43.120] know we should be exploring all of
[01:18:45.040] these. So at this point I would
[01:18:47.719] say we know it's NHI non-human
[01:18:51.400] intelligence but it's not clear what the
[01:18:55.040] source is. maybe at a higher level of uh
[01:18:58.080] classification than I had access to.
[01:19:00.239] Maybe it's it's known. But right now, I
[01:19:02.960] I'd say we we we don't Do you have a
[01:19:05.040] suspicion?
[01:19:11.920] I guess my suspicion
[01:19:15.159] that it's
[01:19:18.679] likely non-human intelligence from some
[01:19:23.560] other galaxy or far out in our own
[01:19:27.480] galaxy that have come here but some time
[01:19:31.400] back and that there are stations here.
[01:19:35.360] Uh, you know, I
[01:19:38.120] mean, one of our remote
[01:19:40.679] viewers that was that was really good
[01:19:44.159] came up one day and said, "I was looking
[01:19:47.199] around and and I think I found a UFO
[01:19:50.480] base on
[01:19:52.679] Earth." This is during the remote
[01:19:54.480] viewing era. And uh, you know, oh my
[01:19:57.280] god, I've I've got to report this to my
[01:20:00.400] CIA contract monitor. Do I want to tell
[01:20:02.719] him that? And so I did. And the play one
[01:20:06.080] of the places he came up with some but
[01:20:07.920] one of the places he came up with was uh
[01:20:10.880] Mount Zeal in
[01:20:12.440] Australia. And so my CIA contract
[01:20:15.040] monitor says well I know this station
[01:20:17.840] keeper CIA station keeper out in
[01:20:20.080] Australia. I think I'll call him and uh
[01:20:22.960] I won't tell him why I'm asking but I'll
[01:20:25.040] ask him about Mount Zeal area. So he
[01:20:27.360] gave him a call and he said uh I'd like
[01:20:29.600] to ask you about that Mount Zeal area.
[01:20:32.159] He said, "Oh, you mean where the UFOs
[01:20:33.600] are always flying around?"
[01:20:36.960] Whoa. So, I thought, "Oh, gee." You
[01:20:38.920] know, so I Anyway, I This was from Pat
[01:20:41.840] Price. I I take him seriously. Let me
[01:20:44.480] give you an anecdote. I mean, I know
[01:20:46.880] it's hard to believe that this some of
[01:20:49.600] this stuff could possibly be real. But
[01:20:51.920] here was a real game changer for me.
[01:20:54.960] One day Pat Price during the remote
[01:20:56.719] viewing program came in the office and
[01:20:59.440] he said, "Uh, I got bored last night."
[01:21:03.040] So, I started looking around and I
[01:21:05.600] decided to look at the Oval
[01:21:08.760] Office. And as I kind
[01:21:11.640] of did my way around the Oval Office, I
[01:21:15.120] realized there's something in the Oval
[01:21:18.440] Office that will harm him and he will
[01:21:21.760] not get through his second term.
[01:21:24.800] And I'm thinking to myself, "Oh my god,
[01:21:26.640] you know, I have to report that to a CI
[01:21:29.280] contract man, which which I did." And so
[01:21:32.400] they sent a team over and looking for,
[01:21:34.640] you know, hidden microwaves, hidden
[01:21:37.199] toxic substances, and they didn't come
[01:21:39.199] up with anything. Of course, as we now
[01:21:41.280] know from history, it was the tape
[01:21:43.760] recorder that did him
[01:21:45.719] in. And he couldn't make it through a
[01:21:48.560] second term because he So this is during
[01:21:50.239] the Nixon administration. Nixon
[01:21:51.760] administration. Oh, and so interesting
[01:21:54.080] enough when he reported that to oh my
[01:21:56.520] god that means
[01:21:58.760] um Spyro Agna will be president because
[01:22:01.520] he was the vice president and he says no
[01:22:03.920] he goes
[01:22:04.840] first. Now it turned out he did go first
[01:22:08.400] because of some money laundering scheme.
[01:22:10.719] So when I sit down and try to say, okay,
[01:22:13.040] what are the
[01:22:14.199] statistics of having somebody see that a
[01:22:18.719] president is going to make it through
[01:22:20.159] his next term and his vice president is
[01:22:22.960] not going to take over because he goes
[01:22:24.440] first. I mean, the odds of that, I mean,
[01:22:27.440] there just no doubt that that that means
[01:22:29.760] it's really something. Well, especially
[01:22:31.280] when you consider Nixon was one of the
[01:22:33.920] most popularly elected presidents ever,
[01:22:37.280] right? I mean, he won by an enormous
[01:22:39.600] margin. That was the whole where the
[01:22:42.400] vice president's or the the other uh
[01:22:45.199] candidates vice president had
[01:22:46.639] electroshock therapy that hadn't been
[01:22:48.800] revealed. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And it
[01:22:50.880] turned out people were very concerned
[01:22:52.880] that he was mentally ill, but it was too
[01:22:55.360] late to replace him. They didn't know
[01:22:57.199] what to do. They finally replaced him,
[01:22:58.719] but it was too late. That's right. I
[01:23:01.440] remember that. Yeah. That was a big part
[01:23:03.280] of the whole thing.
[01:23:05.320] So now one thing you may be surprised to
[01:23:09.440] learn and you you you've asked me from
[01:23:11.440] time to time well you know what did I
[01:23:13.600] think as I'm facing into all this
[01:23:17.000] stuff we obviously as physicists think
[01:23:20.239] about time going forward reasonable way
[01:23:24.320] and as I mentioned the Princeton
[01:23:27.560] lab got involved uh Robert John at
[01:23:32.000] Princeton was very good in quantum
[01:23:34.719] theory and so on. And he knows that in
[01:23:36.800] quantum theory, time is kind of a
[01:23:39.040] slippery
[01:23:40.120] slope. Uh you know, we have the
[01:23:42.800] space-time metric and the possibility of
[01:23:45.520] maybe seeing something in the future or
[01:23:47.040] something in the past.
[01:23:49.199] And so he did a series of remote viewing
[01:23:51.120] experiments very much like like what we
[01:23:52.960] were doing,
[01:23:54.840] but sometimes he would have somebody go
[01:23:58.159] to a site and then wait a week and have
[01:24:00.880] somebody describe where the person went
[01:24:03.639] or he might have somebody describe where
[01:24:06.320] a person went, but the person didn't go
[01:24:08.800] until a week later. And so he did a lot
[01:24:11.840] of experiments which by the way were
[01:24:14.800] good enough. He also got it published in
[01:24:16.639] the proceedings of the ITLE E Institute
[01:24:18.800] of Electrical Electronics Engineers a
[01:24:20.960] couple years after our paper like 78 or
[01:24:23.880] so. And so it it turned out that the
[01:24:26.719] results either looking a bit into the
[01:24:28.480] future, a bit into the past didn't uh
[01:24:32.080] the results were just as good.
[01:24:34.960] So that sort of helped solve another
[01:24:37.840] problem for us because we were always
[01:24:41.639] uh I mean I can't blame the skeptics
[01:24:44.320] coming forward. In fact our our favorite
[01:24:46.560] phrase is as far as remote viewing goes
[01:24:50.080] there are two outcomes. People
[01:24:52.239] investigate it know it works. people who
[01:24:55.120] don't and know it can't and that sort of
[01:24:58.560] so anyway you know a big thing that we
[01:25:00.960] always got pushed on was well if these
[01:25:03.120] people are so psychic why aren't they
[01:25:05.040] rich why aren't they at Las Vegas why
[01:25:07.679] aren't they doing silver futures or
[01:25:09.360] whatever so well it turned out I had a
[01:25:11.520] chance to test that because uh as it
[01:25:15.679] turns out my wife uh Adrien Kennedy was
[01:25:19.199] uh on the board of uh a new uh grammar
[01:25:23.520] school that was being set up in the Bay
[01:25:25.360] Area where we were at the time. And
[01:25:29.080] uh
[01:25:31.560] so I uh was trying to raise money
[01:25:33.920] because they were about $25,000 short.
[01:25:37.120] And so uh I uh went to a wealthy dentist
[01:25:40.719] I knew of and said, uh you know, would
[01:25:42.719] you mind giving $25,000 for this school
[01:25:45.920] that's just being set up? We're short.
[01:25:48.239] And he says, "No, wait a minute. I know
[01:25:49.520] who you are. You have that ESP program
[01:25:51.920] over at SRRI, don't you?" And I said,
[01:25:53.520] "Yeah." He said, "Tell you what, I do
[01:25:56.239] silver futures. If you can get your ESP
[01:25:59.440] people to tell me what's happening each
[01:26:03.239] day the next day in silver futures, I
[01:26:07.120] will follow what you tell me." And
[01:26:12.080] uh and I'll bet on it and see if I make
[01:26:15.520] money based on that. And tell you what,
[01:26:17.840] whatever money I get, I'll give your
[01:26:19.920] school 10% of what I make. and don't
[01:26:22.320] worry if I lose money I won't charge you
[01:26:24.159] something. So anyway, that that was
[01:26:26.280] interesting. Well, by now in the
[01:26:28.480] program, we recognize that okay, there's
[01:26:30.800] the bell curve sort of anybody can do it
[01:26:32.880] to some degree. So, I simply went to the
[01:26:35.520] board of directors of the
[01:26:37.239] school and uh said,
[01:26:40.840] um, we're going to go into silver
[01:26:43.320] futures to make our missing
[01:26:47.800] $25,000, but I'm not going to ask you
[01:26:50.400] what you think the market's going to do
[01:26:52.320] the next day because that'll depend on
[01:26:53.840] what you've read or what you hope for or
[01:26:55.840] whatever, whatever, whatever. We're
[01:26:57.679] going to do something different.
[01:26:59.600] I'm going to pick a couple of
[01:27:01.320] objects, objects that are very different
[01:27:03.760] from each other. I'm going to label one
[01:27:06.159] of them mark it up. I'm going to label
[01:27:08.560] the other one mark it
[01:27:10.120] down. And I want you to describe to me
[01:27:14.600] today the object I'm going to show you
[01:27:17.320] tomorrow, which would depend on what the
[01:27:19.440] market
[01:27:20.440] does. And so,
[01:27:22.840] uh, okay. And for a crash course, I gave
[01:27:26.719] him this
[01:27:27.800] uh shortened version of how, you know,
[01:27:30.320] don't don't try to image it, just try to
[01:27:32.159] get it's a visceral thing. How do you
[01:27:34.480] feel about it? What is the sort of
[01:27:36.239] texture of it? And so on. And uh Jamie,
[01:27:39.920] can you can you pull up that
[01:27:42.520] uh first of
[01:27:44.679] the it shows the
[01:27:49.000] uh the figure wooden figurine and the uh
[01:27:53.600] tape
[01:27:54.760] measure if you could show that. Yeah. So
[01:27:58.239] on a given day I have two objects and of
[01:28:00.480] course they're different as they can be
[01:28:01.920] in case you get a lousy description or
[01:28:03.760] whatever. So on a given day, that's a
[01:28:06.880] couple of objects I picked out. And I
[01:28:09.040] labeled the one to myself. I labeled the
[01:28:11.040] one on the left, mark it up, the one on
[01:28:15.040] the right, mark it
[01:28:17.080] down. But they have no idea what my
[01:28:20.480] objects are, right? So the next
[01:28:23.719] day, you get the following slide. That's
[01:28:26.800] the last slide.
[01:28:30.320] Do you have the following slide? Um, I
[01:28:32.960] have I have a previous slide. Yeah. Is
[01:28:34.880] that it? Is that what you're looking
[01:28:36.800] for? That's it. Okay. And so, uh, I had
[01:28:41.360] seven viewers and on this particular
[01:28:43.679] day, five of them didn't turn out much,
[01:28:46.080] but one of the viewers said, "I've got
[01:28:49.040] something all squirreled up in a can,
[01:28:51.520] all wound around, and I hear the words
[01:28:54.560] one, two, three," said rhythmically.
[01:28:56.880] Tape. Oh, yeah. The second guy, same
[01:28:59.840] thing. and cans all something all around
[01:29:01.760] it. So that's what I go with. Anyway,
[01:29:03.760] make a long story short, 30 days in the
[01:29:06.320] market, we made $260,000 for the
[01:29:08.920] investor. We got our 10% which is
[01:29:11.800] $26,000. So you got a bit of a bonus
[01:29:14.320] there for the school. Why didn't you
[01:29:15.840] guys keep going and get rich?
[01:29:18.320] Well, that I know everybody asked me
[01:29:20.560] that. The truth matter it was it was
[01:29:22.880] almost a 24-hour a day job to do this.
[01:29:26.480] And meanwhile, we're back over at the
[01:29:28.000] lab training army intelligence remote
[01:29:30.080] viewers how to how to remote view. So,
[01:29:32.639] uh,
[01:29:34.159] clearly that wasn't your ambition. Your
[01:29:35.840] ambition wasn't to get rich, but you
[01:29:37.920] proved your point. I proved my point.
[01:29:39.679] So, so now
[01:29:42.440] when going into the future, you're
[01:29:45.880] you're reasonably certain that these
[01:29:48.239] things this is a real phenomenon. Do you
[01:29:50.320] ever get access to these materials that
[01:29:53.040] you were discussing earlier? Did you
[01:29:54.480] have you ever seen anything?
[01:29:57.520] Uh yes I have.
[01:30:00.440] Um one example I can talk about one
[01:30:03.520] sample I can talk about is uh Are there
[01:30:06.159] things you can't talk about? There are
[01:30:07.760] things I can't talk about. Right. But
[01:30:09.520] there's there's one sample I can talk
[01:30:11.280] about which you could put up on the
[01:30:13.280] screen. That would be that this right
[01:30:15.040] here. It's right here. Yeah. Right.
[01:30:17.440] Uh it turns out that
[01:30:19.840] uh an army uh person said that his
[01:30:22.800] grandfather had been involved in picking
[01:30:25.520] up debris from the Roswell
[01:30:28.040] crash
[01:30:30.120] and and so he sent it uh of all places
[01:30:34.880] he sent it to Art Bell
[01:30:38.239] of the of the radio podcast the great
[01:30:40.960] Art Bell. So Artbell turned it over to
[01:30:44.639] Linda how Linda Linda so she's you know
[01:30:48.719] got it and so she said she'd make it
[01:30:52.000] available and so on. So about this time
[01:30:58.280] uh I had already had
[01:31:00.920] my viewpoint shifted as I say by Ed
[01:31:07.120] uh by Edward Teller about you know we
[01:31:09.679] should have more uh openness going on.
[01:31:13.120] And so in fact Tom Dong came along and
[01:31:15.920] uh you know the punk rock bleak 182 and
[01:31:19.440] said uh you know we we we should be by
[01:31:22.480] the way this is before even things came
[01:31:24.560] out in the New York Times in December
[01:31:26.719] 2017. He says you know I've been talking
[01:31:28.560] to people at some aerospace corporations
[01:31:31.360] and they're saying how hard it is to get
[01:31:33.760] students to do their engineering and
[01:31:36.239] come to work for us. And so he said,
[01:31:38.719] "Well, you know, if there's anything to
[01:31:41.120] quote the UFO area, you know, maybe it
[01:31:44.000] could generate some interest that way."
[01:31:46.000] And
[01:31:47.000] so, long story short, he got Jim
[01:31:51.239] Simovan, now retired high level person
[01:31:54.400] at CIA, got me. Keep that up, James.
[01:31:58.719] And so,
[01:32:00.679] uh, so anyway, we started to the stars
[01:32:03.760] academy of arts and science. And so we
[01:32:06.639] were part of what was behind uh helping
[01:32:09.520] Leslie Keane get that story out in the
[01:32:11.760] New York Times to to break out that
[01:32:14.639] something was really going on behind the
[01:32:16.239] scenes. Back to this material. This
[01:32:17.760] anyway on this material layered she had
[01:32:20.800] came up with this material. How big is
[01:32:22.159] this what we're looking at? Oh, it's
[01:32:23.520] about it's about this big. So 4 in
[01:32:25.920] something like that. Okay. Pretty big.
[01:32:28.080] And so it's got all these layers. So on
[01:32:30.080] the one hand you can say well this is
[01:32:31.760] just a guy sending in some stuff. uh
[01:32:34.560] there's no chain of custody, right? You
[01:32:36.880] don't know if he's a fraud making it up
[01:32:38.719] or whatever. But anyway, it turns out
[01:32:41.199] those are layers of titanium and
[01:32:43.639] bismouth. So anyway, we uh Tom Dong got
[01:32:46.880] got a hold of a copy and so we said,
[01:32:48.880] "Okay, we're going to we're going to do
[01:32:50.639] everything we can to nail this down."
[01:32:53.360] So, we actually set up a contract with
[01:32:56.239] uh an army office and then they
[01:33:01.000] uh arranged for Arrow,
[01:33:05.159] the all domain anomalies resolution
[01:33:08.120] office to consider taking this
[01:33:11.880] seriously. And uh so they arranged that
[01:33:15.440] this could be analyzed by Oakidge
[01:33:18.320] National
[01:33:19.719] Laboratory. And so we provided this uh
[01:33:22.719] to them to to analyze. Okay. And what
[01:33:25.520] were the results? Well, the results were
[01:33:28.520] that there's no obvious proof that it
[01:33:31.760] comes from out of our solar system
[01:33:34.480] because there are various isotopes would
[01:33:36.239] be different if it came from some other
[01:33:38.480] solar system. So that would be the first
[01:33:41.760] thing you'd look for to say, "Oh, this
[01:33:43.600] really is ET." So that that didn't wash.
[01:33:47.280] The second part though was a little more
[01:33:49.280] interesting and that is these layers of
[01:33:51.280] magnesium and bismouth. I mean those are
[01:33:54.159] the size of a human hair some of those
[01:33:57.000] layers and they said uh well we can't
[01:34:00.239] find any evidence in the history of
[01:34:03.040] development of
[01:34:04.600] materials of of materials like that and
[01:34:07.520] can't even imagine anybody want to make
[01:34:09.400] it. Uh so it's just it's an anomaly. So,
[01:34:14.480] no proof that it's
[01:34:15.960] ET, but one of the things we did do, he
[01:34:18.480] says, "Okay, well, how hard is it to
[01:34:20.800] make something like this?" And so, we
[01:34:23.440] got an aerospace corporation to say,
[01:34:26.239] "Can can you bond Misizabeth and
[01:34:28.880] magnesium together, you know, sort of
[01:34:30.560] like what we see in this sample?" Well,
[01:34:34.239] they got two layers bonded. Cost them
[01:34:36.719] over a million dollars. Broke down their
[01:34:39.159] instruments to do it. So, it's still
[01:34:42.719] basically a mystery. So, we we got to
[01:34:44.880] read the report. Uh it was
[01:34:48.760] uh not totally provided to the public,
[01:34:54.000] but anyway, was this about a quarter
[01:34:55.360] inch thick? Is that what we're looking
[01:34:56.560] at here? Yeah. Yeah, it's about So, how
[01:34:58.400] many layers did they estimate? I think
[01:35:00.960] we had in uh might have been 18,
[01:35:04.880] something like that. We could probably
[01:35:06.560] count them.
[01:35:08.400] So
[01:35:09.159] anyway, so that that that's uh a
[01:35:12.480] possible example, but no no conclusion
[01:35:16.239] we come to. So this is something that is
[01:35:18.320] of terrestrial origin in terms of
[01:35:20.239] materials when you measure the isotopes,
[01:35:22.639] but it's of a construction method that's
[01:35:24.880] not currently available. That is a a
[01:35:28.719] perfect description of the situation.
[01:35:31.120] And and by the way, certainly wasn't
[01:35:33.040] available back in the 40s and 50s when
[01:35:35.600] this supposedly was found. supposedly
[01:35:37.440] that's the problem. So when was this is
[01:35:39.280] analyzed in what year?
[01:35:42.000] Well analysis started taking place
[01:35:45.800] um by Linda how at other laboratories I
[01:35:49.280] think in the years in the 2000s and we
[01:35:52.560] got back yeah we we got it uh
[01:35:57.040] I don't know maybe 20
[01:36:01.080] uh 2020 something like that. So, but
[01:36:04.560] whoever if if the chain of analy we got
[01:36:07.600] it analyzed we got it analyzed only a
[01:36:10.560] couple years ago but if the chain of
[01:36:12.239] custody is accurate it goes back far
[01:36:14.719] enough where this is impossible right
[01:36:17.040] right and seemingly given the effort
[01:36:20.639] that the aerospace corporation put in
[01:36:24.000] they can't even manufacture this today
[01:36:26.639] right in that that level so this Roswell
[01:36:30.239] crash is the big one right that's the
[01:36:32.000] one that everybody knows out and it was
[01:36:34.080] in 1947 in Rosville, New Mexico and the
[01:36:36.719] wreckage was flown in two separate
[01:36:38.719] planes to Wright Patterson Air Force
[01:36:40.560] Base which is unusual in and of itself
[01:36:43.440] and the idea was that it's flown in two
[01:36:45.440] planes just in case one goes down that
[01:36:47.440] this stuff is so important that we have
[01:36:49.920] to analyze it. That's correct. What do
[01:36:53.600] you think that was?
[01:36:57.199] I think it was
[01:36:58.679] a
[01:37:00.920] true non-human intelligence craft that
[01:37:05.199] um
[01:37:06.600] crashed.
[01:37:09.800] Uh we've talked to one of my colleagues,
[01:37:13.679] Eric Davis, is one of my senior
[01:37:16.400] scientific
[01:37:18.119] adviserss. He interviewed General Exxon,
[01:37:21.920] who had been head of Wright Patterson
[01:37:24.560] Air Force Base. and so on and also uh
[01:37:29.000] Deose. So he's interviewed a couple of
[01:37:31.360] people that were involved back in in
[01:37:33.679] those days and they they say it was the
[01:37:36.400] real deal that this uh was a real
[01:37:40.760] unidentifiable crash and these materials
[01:37:45.560] were
[01:37:47.320] really really from out someplace. And
[01:37:50.639] what did they say was done with the
[01:37:51.920] wreckage
[01:37:54.239] that had been taken to Wright Patterson
[01:37:56.400] Air Force Base for analysis? And did
[01:37:58.960] anything come out of that analysis?
[01:38:01.760] Not that the public would hear about.
[01:38:05.119] Not that you can disclose. Not not that
[01:38:07.040] I could disclose. That's where it gets
[01:38:09.360] frustrating. So there was Well, it gets
[01:38:11.280] it gets frustrating even for I mean the
[01:38:14.560] compartmentalization in this area is is
[01:38:17.520] really obscene. So you can have people
[01:38:20.000] sitting at this desk and someone else
[01:38:22.639] sitting in that chair and they don't
[01:38:26.080] have access. I can't tell him what I'm
[01:38:27.679] working on. He can't tell me what he's
[01:38:29.199] working on. And so that's uh our going
[01:38:32.480] forward with this is uh very
[01:38:35.400] very slow
[01:38:38.440] and not opportune I would have to say.
[01:38:41.280] And of course we have data can't go into
[01:38:44.639] detail. We have data about crashes in
[01:38:46.560] other countries. So, it's really clear
[01:38:49.440] that uh we're not the only ones on the
[01:38:51.520] planet. So, that's something to be
[01:38:53.520] concerned about because for example,
[01:38:56.679] here we have our capitalistic uh
[01:39:01.719] competition, aerospace corporations,
[01:39:04.159] electronics corporations all being very
[01:39:07.760] hushed up and not sharing which stifles
[01:39:10.320] innovation. stifles innovation.
[01:39:12.320] Meanwhile, in China, you got you put all
[01:39:15.040] the labs on something like this and say,
[01:39:16.960] "And by the way, don't say anything
[01:39:18.320] outside that you're not supposed to say
[01:39:20.080] or you know, you're done." Uh, and so
[01:39:23.440] the competition that potentially could
[01:39:27.040] uninhindered. Yeah. Yeah. So that's part
[01:39:28.960] of what's behind our
[01:39:30.920] not revealing what we've learned
[01:39:34.520] because there might be some aspect that
[01:39:36.960] we've learned which in principle you'd
[01:39:38.719] think well you could reveal but it might
[01:39:40.800] be the missing piece that some potential
[01:39:43.600] adversary said oh that's what we've been
[01:39:46.159] missing right so I'm so even though
[01:39:49.440] generally speaking I'm of uh the feeling
[01:39:53.679] that there should be more disclosure I'm
[01:39:56.560] also very tight
[01:39:58.320] on, you know, anything that could be
[01:40:01.520] potentially helpful to an adversary uh
[01:40:04.400] in this area. You know, we're not going
[01:40:06.000] to reveal that would be a mistake. So,
[01:40:08.560] how do these things keep crashing if
[01:40:10.719] they're so good? If they can get here
[01:40:12.400] from somewhere else, why do they slam
[01:40:14.400] into the desert?
[01:40:18.159] Some of
[01:40:19.400] them have just been left in the
[01:40:22.440] desert, not crash.
[01:40:25.199] Some of them some of them have just I
[01:40:27.760] talked to Diana Pasoko about this. Oh,
[01:40:30.080] okay. And she refers to them as
[01:40:31.920] donations. She said that's how they were
[01:40:33.840] described to her.
[01:40:36.080] Yeah. So in fact uh you know maybe maybe
[01:40:39.280] some of them are donations uh to help us
[01:40:42.480] accelerate our forward motion or maybe
[01:40:46.960] they donate something here, something in
[01:40:49.679] China, something in Russia and see
[01:40:53.560] who is best at moving forward, right?
[01:40:57.440] Just as part of their ISR evaluation of
[01:41:00.320] us. I mean, let's let's let's face it.
[01:41:03.040] We've had uh as as is known in the
[01:41:05.679] public, we've had UFOs come over our
[01:41:09.840] missile
[01:41:11.480] silos. Uh one at Mount Air Force Base
[01:41:14.880] that uh Salace has talked about, Bob
[01:41:17.960] Salas, they turned off all of our
[01:41:20.679] missiles. There's no way it could be
[01:41:23.239] launched. In Russia, there's even a
[01:41:25.520] worst
[01:41:26.280] case. They started the launch sequence
[01:41:29.600] in Russia.
[01:41:31.040] at a missile silo, nuclear missile silo,
[01:41:34.239] and the people at this at the location
[01:41:36.960] could not stop it, could not turn it
[01:41:38.719] off. So they thought, you know, World
[01:41:41.360] War II is about to stop. Fortunately, it
[01:41:44.560] was turned off. So anyway, you've got
[01:41:46.560] two things. So they whoever was doing
[01:41:48.719] that, whoever was manipulating it turned
[01:41:50.800] it off. That's right. So there's a big
[01:41:53.600] question is there are two ways to look
[01:41:55.280] at that. Yeah. Right. They're friendly
[01:41:57.520] and benign and they just want us to know
[01:41:59.760] that if we get too frisky down here and
[01:42:01.760] think about having a nuclear war, they
[01:42:03.679] can stop it.
[01:42:05.320] Or they might not be benign and the
[01:42:08.560] armada is on its way and they just want
[01:42:10.880] to test that they can stop our use of
[01:42:13.119] nuclear weapons against them. So
[01:42:15.639] it's from a security standpoint and from
[01:42:19.199] a DoD standpoint, from intelligence
[01:42:21.679] community standpoint, you always have to
[01:42:23.760] have the worst scenario in your mind,
[01:42:25.920] right? And see where you go. Yeah. Well,
[01:42:29.679] I would imagine from a security
[01:42:32.000] standpoint, it's a nightmare because
[01:42:33.920] you're not secure at all. If something
[01:42:35.840] can fly over your airspace and you can't
[01:42:38.960] do anything about it and it can shut
[01:42:40.480] down your missiles or turn them on,
[01:42:43.679] you're in a very strange situation.
[01:42:46.239] That's true. Where you're completely
[01:42:47.880] helpless, dependent upon the whim of
[01:42:50.800] these beings. Exactly. Or whatever their
[01:42:54.480] mandate is, whatever they're trying to
[01:42:55.920] do, right? What do you think they're
[01:42:57.280] trying to do here?
[01:43:02.800] I have thoughts going in many directions
[01:43:05.600] in answer to that question.
[01:43:09.159] Um all the way from well they seated us
[01:43:12.960] here you know millennia ago and they're
[01:43:15.840] just seeing how their pet petri dish is
[01:43:17.920] doing human beings the product of
[01:43:19.920] accelerated evolution. Yeah something
[01:43:21.679] like that. Uh
[01:43:24.239] but I mean it's it's really hard to
[01:43:27.199] know. I mean, we it may be that we're a
[01:43:28.880] very special planet because we have all
[01:43:30.560] this water, which generally speaking is
[01:43:33.760] kind of rare. So, you know, maybe they'd
[01:43:37.040] like to slowly build up a connection
[01:43:40.159] with us so that they could take
[01:43:43.199] advantage of direct access to some of
[01:43:45.760] our
[01:43:46.679] resources. Don't know. uh by and large
[01:43:51.199] interactions
[01:43:53.199] uh have not been what you might
[01:43:56.119] call negative. I mean, even when we
[01:43:59.920] shoot missiles at them or whatever, but
[01:44:02.560] there were a series of exper of events
[01:44:05.600] in Calleris Island in
[01:44:08.040] Brazil back in the 80s, I think it was.
[01:44:12.960] And as part of our program, we
[01:44:14.960] investigated that in some
[01:44:17.159] detail where
[01:44:19.719] over
[01:44:21.239] some long period like
[01:44:24.040] weeks and the Brazilian Air Force got
[01:44:26.800] involved. They got thousand hours of
[01:44:29.760] film and and
[01:44:31.960] uh they put their a big air force group
[01:44:36.000] down there and the UFOs were coming over
[01:44:39.920] and sending out beams that were actually
[01:44:42.000] harming people.
[01:44:44.000] That's our one example that that stands
[01:44:47.400] out of there
[01:44:49.719] being apparent experience uh episodes
[01:44:53.360] where UFOs there's no way to interpret
[01:44:56.560] it but but as negative. So that makes
[01:45:00.159] you wonder well you know maybe they're
[01:45:01.600] just one particular group of right oh
[01:45:04.400] euphanauts that are that are negatively
[01:45:06.639] disposed but the rest of them are okay
[01:45:08.400] or so anyway that's well they're
[01:45:10.960] probably just like humans in that regard
[01:45:13.119] right there's humans that are involved
[01:45:15.600] in scientific research expeditions they
[01:45:17.920] go there not looking to do any harm at
[01:45:19.679] all and then there's humans that will go
[01:45:21.760] into an area where they're looking to
[01:45:23.280] extract resources and all they want to
[01:45:25.280] do is do that and anything that gets in
[01:45:27.520] their way you know is casualties. Yeah.
[01:45:31.600] Exa. Exactly. So, there's a lot I mean
[01:45:34.800] it's still a big area that needs a lot
[01:45:38.199] of look see. And uh interesting enough
[01:45:43.600] even though uh this has been a tinfoil
[01:45:46.800] hat crowd kind of thing up until around
[01:45:50.239] 2017 when that New York Times story came
[01:45:52.560] out.
[01:45:54.119] Uh suddenly that really made a
[01:45:58.040] difference because the people that were
[01:46:00.239] coming on board that there's something
[01:46:01.679] real here were people like Senator Harry
[01:46:04.400] Reid and other senators and so on. And
[01:46:07.520] so that sort of broken open that okay
[01:46:09.920] there there really is something here.
[01:46:12.480] And so as a result of that that's how
[01:46:14.480] some of these programs u have gotten you
[01:46:17.679] know pushed forward and re reignited.
[01:46:20.480] How many of these crashed crafts do you
[01:46:23.600] estimate there are that human beings
[01:46:26.159] have recovered?
[01:46:30.880] More than 10. More than 10. More than
[01:46:33.840] 10. How many of them are in possession
[01:46:36.639] of people in the United States?
[01:46:39.600] I I meant more than 10 in possession of
[01:46:42.320] the United States. What about worldwide?
[01:46:45.040] Worldwide. Uh do we have any data on
[01:46:47.760] that?
[01:46:49.040] We have data, but it's it's it's
[01:46:50.800] classified. There's no way to really
[01:46:53.199] talk about it. But so there's more
[01:46:55.920] though. You could safely say it's not
[01:46:58.239] just the ones in the United States. Not
[01:46:59.760] just the ones in the United States. And
[01:47:01.119] and these uh are they equally
[01:47:02.880] distributed?
[01:47:07.679] My I I I actually I don't know for sure
[01:47:11.840] in terms of of data. I mean we have our
[01:47:14.719] best data of course on our own
[01:47:17.199] retrievalss
[01:47:18.960] um but more than 10 retrieved in the
[01:47:21.679] United States. More than 10 ret. What is
[01:47:23.840] your take on Bob Lazar?
[01:47:27.440] Well, we looked into the Bob Lazar story
[01:47:29.440] and
[01:47:31.000] uh but only, you know, from a certain
[01:47:34.159] relatively superficial
[01:47:36.719] uh level. Uh looked at uh well, we found
[01:47:41.600] out what his clearance levels supposedly
[01:47:43.679] were and so on, which came back saying
[01:47:47.199] it was not high enough to be doing what
[01:47:49.440] he says he was doing. On the other hand,
[01:47:51.840] it may just simply be, yeah, it was
[01:47:54.880] better than that, but we didn't have the
[01:47:56.719] access to see that. So, when I when I
[01:48:00.320] hear his physics descriptions, uh, it
[01:48:02.480] it's it's a puzzle. It it
[01:48:04.920] seems not exactly as I would anticipate
[01:48:09.280] u might be the technology behind the
[01:48:11.360] craft, but I can't absolutely write them
[01:48:15.119] off. So, it's just it's an enigma and I
[01:48:18.159] and I don't have any hard data to prove
[01:48:21.119] one way or the other. So, it's uh I I I
[01:48:24.560] know you've you've talked to them and
[01:48:26.080] Yeah. Um it's a fascinating puzzle. It
[01:48:28.960] is a fascinating puzzle because that
[01:48:30.880] would be the place S4 would be the place
[01:48:33.360] where they would do that kind of work.
[01:48:36.560] I mean, if you wanted to do something
[01:48:38.080] like that in complete privacy and
[01:48:39.679] secrecy, you'd do it in the middle of
[01:48:40.880] the Nevada desert. Very protected.
[01:48:42.639] That's true. Right. outside of Area 51.
[01:48:46.080] So even when people that have high
[01:48:47.840] clearances go and say, "Well, tell me
[01:48:50.480] about this. What what's what's behind
[01:48:52.080] this?" Who knows if it's a special
[01:48:54.480] access program, an SAP, it might be say,
[01:48:58.080] "No, we're going to tell you that." You
[01:48:59.920] know, he he didn't do anything of
[01:49:01.760] significance here. In fact, he might
[01:49:03.440] have done something of significance.
[01:49:05.199] There's just no way of telling from from
[01:49:07.119] the outside. Yeah. Yeah. So the the
[01:49:12.360] actual generator, the thing that powers
[01:49:15.520] the craft that Lazar talked about, what
[01:49:17.600] was your take on that? This idea that it
[01:49:19.600] was element
[01:49:21.239] 115 that when it encounters high
[01:49:23.920] radiation, it has some sort of an
[01:49:26.920] anti-gravitational effect, some warp
[01:49:29.440] effect. Well, there are two two aspects.
[01:49:32.719] One is what is the material or
[01:49:36.920] mechanisms that generate the effects and
[01:49:39.920] then the other is are the effects being
[01:49:43.480] described reasonable descriptions of the
[01:49:46.719] kind of effects you think are associated
[01:49:48.320] with with such craft on the element 115.
[01:49:52.239] As you know, in the general scientific
[01:49:54.239] community, we finally we've seen element
[01:49:56.800] 115, but you know, it's very
[01:49:59.000] short-lived. So, it's hard to evaluate
[01:50:01.679] that. And at this point, there's no
[01:50:03.920] evidence that that that that's it. So,
[01:50:05.920] it was we should explain to people it
[01:50:07.679] was theoretical at one point until they
[01:50:09.840] detected it using was a large collider
[01:50:12.719] or another particle collider. you know,
[01:50:15.040] right now I think it was a particle
[01:50:16.960] collider in in Soviet Union or in Russia
[01:50:19.520] and it's very shortlasting, but the idea
[01:50:23.679] is that what Lazar was in possession of
[01:50:26.080] or what the craft was powered by was
[01:50:28.159] some sort of a stable version of element
[01:50:30.560] 115. That's that that's what he says. So
[01:50:33.600] in general it was known that and
[01:50:36.159] predicted that there was an island of
[01:50:38.639] stability as we call it on some of these
[01:50:41.679] higher uh elements in the periodic table
[01:50:44.880] that are that are beyond uranium and so
[01:50:47.960] on. Uh but really no data predicted as
[01:50:52.960] to what
[01:50:54.280] their lifetimes would be. And so element
[01:50:58.239] 115 is is is in that bunch. And when he
[01:51:01.679] first discussed it, it hadn't been seen
[01:51:04.239] yet. Or this is way back in 1989. Way
[01:51:06.480] back. That's right. But eventually that
[01:51:09.440] element was detected. Although the
[01:51:11.280] version of it that was detected had a
[01:51:13.040] very short lifetime, but of course there
[01:51:16.400] may be some other isotope of that
[01:51:19.040] element that could have have the long
[01:51:21.280] lifetime. Who
[01:51:23.080] knows? So it's it's just hard to
[01:51:25.440] evaluate. So it sits in my gray box, as
[01:51:27.760] I say. Uh but his description
[01:51:31.719] of the anti-gravity effects and so on,
[01:51:36.000] that's an area that that that is well
[01:51:40.239] described as as what you might expect.
[01:51:42.639] As it turns out in that series of 38
[01:51:44.639] papers, one of my own papers uh that I
[01:51:49.400] provided was one called space-time
[01:51:51.840] metric engineering.
[01:51:53.679] And when the pilots came to me and said
[01:51:56.880] uh you know drops down takes off right
[01:52:00.159] angle turn at Mach 10 uh you know this
[01:52:03.719] is this is way beyond our physics and I
[01:52:06.480] said earlier you know I think it's not
[01:52:08.560] beyond our physics beyond our
[01:52:09.679] engineering but what I did on the
[01:52:11.440] physics level
[01:52:12.760] was all of our electronics that we have
[01:52:15.440] here for example this microphone uh the
[01:52:18.520] recording uh that you're making and so
[01:52:21.040] that's all based on electromagnetic
[01:52:23.760] kinds of technologies all of which come
[01:52:26.080] out of Maxwell's equations. Maxwell's
[01:52:28.360] equations clerk Maxwell way back in the
[01:52:31.320] 1800s developed the equations for
[01:52:33.800] electromagnetism and basically any kind
[01:52:35.920] of electromagnetic device you name it uh
[01:52:40.920] h
[01:52:43.080] Wi-Fi whatever can be traced back to
[01:52:46.159] this equations. So what I said to myself
[01:52:49.599] was okay we have these apparent craft
[01:52:53.760] operating with this unbelievable kinds
[01:52:56.159] of
[01:52:57.719] activity. Is there any way to account
[01:52:59.760] for that in our physics? Well it turns
[01:53:01.360] out so what I did I took a sheet of
[01:53:03.960] paper and the left hand side of the
[01:53:06.320] paper I wrote down all the weird effects
[01:53:08.880] that have been claimed. You know right
[01:53:10.880] angle turn at Mach 10. Uh, I got close
[01:53:14.480] to the craft and suddenly it wasn't the
[01:53:16.400] same size as it seemed to be when I was
[01:53:19.679] further away.
[01:53:23.080] Um, it was a certain uh color, but when
[01:53:26.960] I got close to it, it was it was a
[01:53:28.639] different color. You know, all these
[01:53:30.000] weird things. To me, to me, the weirder
[01:53:32.880] the better because if somebody was just
[01:53:35.520] making up a BS story, they wanted to
[01:53:37.440] sound rational. So you don't come up
[01:53:39.520] with things like, well, I got in the
[01:53:41.199] craft, five minutes went by, I came out
[01:53:43.360] and two hours had gone by. I mean, you
[01:53:45.440] know, you're just not going to make make
[01:53:46.800] that up. Then on the right hand side of
[01:53:48.560] the piece of paper, I said, okay, we
[01:53:51.440] have Einstein's equations in general
[01:53:53.560] relativity, and we use them to talk
[01:53:55.840] about black hole mergers or neutron star
[01:53:58.320] mergers or whatever.
[01:54:01.239] Uh, and all these things are massively
[01:54:04.639] energetic events.
[01:54:06.880] Suppose I could engineer Einstein's
[01:54:10.040] equations the way we engineer Maxwell's
[01:54:13.119] equations for electromagnetic effects.
[01:54:15.119] What would I expect to see? And I find
[01:54:17.920] out I got a hand and glove
[01:54:21.000] match between what was claiming to be
[01:54:23.880] observed and you know what Einstein's
[01:54:27.760] equation if you could engineer them.
[01:54:29.920] Well, why can't we engineer them? Well,
[01:54:31.520] it what we at least what we know today
[01:54:34.560] is the energy density required to
[01:54:36.719] engineer those equations is just way
[01:54:39.119] beyond our ability to do so. So, can you
[01:54:42.320] give me a comparison to what the energy
[01:54:44.159] requirements or something like that
[01:54:45.280] would be like? Yeah. Uh people have have
[01:54:48.560] in fact uh Alcubier warp drive. I don't
[01:54:52.000] know if you've heard of that but a
[01:54:53.119] Miguel Alcubier
[01:54:55.880] um was a researcher in general
[01:54:58.159] relativity and kind of a Star Trek fan
[01:55:00.639] and so on. He said I wonder if we could
[01:55:02.960] really have warp drive. And so uh he
[01:55:06.480] used Einstein's equations to say okay
[01:55:09.040] under what conditions could we do a warp
[01:55:11.679] drive? And he actually came up with
[01:55:13.800] solutions from out of the equations.
[01:55:17.040] Okay. What would it take to drive that?
[01:55:20.080] Oh, it would be hundreds of times more
[01:55:23.520] than the energy of the sun. I mean, wow.
[01:55:26.080] Just out out of sight energy. So, uh,
[01:55:31.040] you know, until we have a new energy
[01:55:33.360] source or until there's some backdoor
[01:55:36.960] that we haven't, uh, you know, sewered
[01:55:39.840] in on, it's it's just really outside of
[01:55:42.880] our our expertise to to think of. There
[01:55:46.560] could be conceivably some breakthrough
[01:55:48.480] and an understanding of this backdoor
[01:55:52.719] like whatever it could be, some new type
[01:55:55.119] of science, some new kind of
[01:55:56.880] understanding. And one of the things
[01:55:58.880] that I've looked into myself is
[01:56:01.639] well what about vacuum energy so-called
[01:56:05.920] uh as a quantum
[01:56:08.599] physicist we all know that uh you know
[01:56:12.159] like you push a kid in a swing and it
[01:56:14.400] you know it it comes down and
[01:56:16.920] stops. But at the quantum level you get
[01:56:19.599] something going it doesn't stop. It
[01:56:22.400] always comes down to a certain level and
[01:56:24.320] it just it's still there. So it turns
[01:56:26.560] out that what we call empty space is not
[01:56:30.560] really empty. It's full of quantum
[01:56:32.760] fluctuations. And in fact, one of the
[01:56:35.679] difficulties of modern physics theory is
[01:56:38.239] that when we go by using our standard
[01:56:41.520] quantum theory to calculate, well,
[01:56:43.280] what's the energy density like right
[01:56:46.080] here or way out in empty space, what's
[01:56:49.440] the energy density of those quantum
[01:56:51.239] fluctuations? It's 120 orders of
[01:56:54.080] magnitude.
[01:56:55.719] greater than could possibly be according
[01:56:59.119] to all of our other theories. I mean it
[01:57:00.960] would collapse gravity and everything
[01:57:02.400] else. So, so we have this conundrum that
[01:57:06.880] that energy that is
[01:57:09.880] everywhere somehow all is random and
[01:57:12.800] cancels out. So, you know, it's just not
[01:57:16.320] having an effect. So the idea is if you
[01:57:18.719] could somehow access that energy um and
[01:57:22.800] cohhere it so to
[01:57:24.840] speak maybe you could get to the energy.
[01:57:27.440] I mean I What would that look like?
[01:57:34.400] Well, if I if I go off on a weird
[01:57:39.080] tangent, I could tell you what it might
[01:57:41.280] look like. Uh along the way in the uh
[01:57:47.040] remote viewing program where we're kind
[01:57:48.800] of looking at physical effects, we
[01:57:51.280] decided to take a look at
[01:57:54.679] uh so-called levitating saints.
[01:57:59.199] Okay. And so, you know, you'd think,
[01:58:01.440] okay, well, that's just that's a
[01:58:03.520] Catholic church trying to pretend it's
[01:58:05.679] got these magical people and whatever,
[01:58:08.000] whatever. But when you dig into the
[01:58:10.080] data, you find it's that that isn't it.
[01:58:12.800] It's that the church hated the idea that
[01:58:17.760] some individuals were levitating because
[01:58:20.719] they might be in the middle of giving
[01:58:22.159] mass and suddenly they, you know, float
[01:58:24.480] up or whatever. So it turns out that
[01:58:27.199] even looking in the uh
[01:58:30.920] uh deep literature of the Inquisition
[01:58:33.760] and so on, the evidence is really solid
[01:58:37.679] that there have been levitating
[01:58:39.719] saints. And uh what the Catholic Church
[01:58:42.159] usually did is they squirreled them off
[01:58:43.679] into some monastery where nobody see
[01:58:45.440] them because there When you say
[01:58:46.400] levitating, like what do you mean? You
[01:58:47.599] mean like how far off the ground?
[01:58:50.119] Sometimes Jaime's got something here.
[01:58:53.119] Notable example happened during a visit
[01:58:54.560] to Italy from the Spanish ambassador.
[01:58:56.639] The ambassador had visited Joseph in his
[01:58:59.199] monastic cell and was so impa impressed
[01:59:02.560] that he wanted to return with his wife.
[01:59:04.159] Joseph entered the church where the
[01:59:06.320] couple hoped to meet him and upon seeing
[01:59:08.000] the statue of Mary elevated 10 ft into
[01:59:10.639] the air, flew over the
[01:59:12.840] crowd to the statue, prayed, flew back
[01:59:15.840] to the door and returned home. The
[01:59:18.080] church later took depositions from a
[01:59:19.840] number of people who were there that day
[01:59:21.440] and their stories were consistent. And
[01:59:23.760] the year, what year was this?
[01:59:26.800] Long time. 1628. 1628. So there are
[01:59:30.719] enough stories like that with lots of
[01:59:34.520] observers and the reporting under really
[01:59:37.440] excellent conditions. Okay. Now that guy
[01:59:40.639] didn't have a nuclear power pack on his
[01:59:42.920] back. So how did that happen? Well, the
[01:59:46.480] only uh thing I can think of in terms of
[01:59:49.119] the physics we know today would be that
[01:59:51.679] somehow the vacuum energy which can be
[01:59:54.719] very high if you cohered it and uh and
[01:59:59.280] if you made it non-random uh you know
[02:00:02.320] may maybe maybe that could do it. So
[02:00:04.159] perhaps he was able to access this with
[02:00:06.239] states of consciousness because he was
[02:00:07.920] so devout in his faith that upon seeing
[02:00:11.040] this the experience was so overwhelming
[02:00:13.920] that he was somehow able to access this
[02:00:16.320] energy right and that ecstatic state is
[02:00:19.280] but it would take this extreme belief
[02:00:22.400] this extreme commitment this state of
[02:00:26.719] mind that's very rare exactly that
[02:00:30.239] that's what it would take and you would
[02:00:32.480] follow that when you did the experiments
[02:00:36.320] with the quantum chip, you would say,
[02:00:37.760] well, if someone's able to control
[02:00:39.599] oscillations, you're doing something
[02:00:41.280] with your mind that shouldn't be
[02:00:42.480] possible, right? And you're affecting a
[02:00:44.960] physical thing that shouldn't be
[02:00:47.239] possible. And this is
[02:00:49.480] just someone who' never thought of doing
[02:00:52.000] that before, someone who didn't know
[02:00:53.840] that they were going. This is so this is
[02:00:55.360] a physical manifestation of the
[02:00:57.440] manifestation the power of
[02:01:00.920] whatever unknown ability of the human
[02:01:04.400] mind. So since it's unknown uh you know
[02:01:08.719] there's no way we would know how to tap
[02:01:10.560] it right and if these are very unique
[02:01:13.040] moments where this is a extremely devout
[02:01:16.000] person who obviously was a monk was
[02:01:19.520] probably meditating and achieving this
[02:01:22.400] insane state of consciousness that's
[02:01:24.320] almost impossible to get to unless
[02:01:27.119] you're committed as long as he was
[02:01:29.040] unless you're as dedicated as he was and
[02:01:30.800] then he has this overwhelming moment
[02:01:33.080] right and I've no way to you know
[02:01:36.960] connect the physics to it now. The idea
[02:01:38.719] is that if there is energy that's
[02:01:41.199] allowing a person using their mind to do
[02:01:43.679] this that somehow or another if this
[02:01:45.679] energy could be accessed
[02:01:48.239] through science through physics through
[02:01:50.159] engineering we tried to look into that
[02:01:52.719] uh for example uh Andre Sakarov a very
[02:01:56.239] famous Soviet
[02:01:58.199] physicist said you know I don't think
[02:02:00.560] gravity is its own
[02:02:03.239] thing I think really it's a
[02:02:05.440] manifestation of the underlying quantum
[02:02:07.599] fluctu
[02:02:09.480] situations and so uh so I and some
[02:02:14.239] colleagues from Lockheed Martin and
[02:02:16.679] elsewhere kind of looked into that uh
[02:02:19.520] option and
[02:02:21.560] u you know if we're just sitting here
[02:02:26.520] uh talking and so on
[02:02:30.199] uh you know universe is full of quantum
[02:02:34.239] fluctuations why don't I notice it on
[02:02:36.880] the other hand if you get into your uh
[02:02:39.520] fastmoving car and you suddenly take
[02:02:42.080] off, you're pressed back in your seat.
[02:02:46.080] Well, what is it that's pressing you
[02:02:47.679] back? I mean, it isn't the wind. You've
[02:02:49.679] got a windshield and a cover. Well,
[02:02:52.480] there's there's some modeling that says,
[02:02:54.320] well, maybe it's because if you try to
[02:02:57.040] accelerate through the vacuum
[02:02:58.320] fluctuations, it will push back on you.
[02:03:01.760] So that might be our first little touch
[02:03:05.119] that okay uh under conditions of
[02:03:09.400] acceleration we do notice the background
[02:03:12.400] vacuum fluctuations. Well since to a
[02:03:14.880] theorist uh inertia and gravity are you
[02:03:18.639] know connected somehow then it makes you
[02:03:20.880] think okay well maybe there's some way
[02:03:22.400] of
[02:03:23.159] accessing vacuum
[02:03:25.320] fluctuations to control gravity. That's
[02:03:28.159] what what we would like to think. And so
[02:03:30.239] one of the things we did in the program
[02:03:31.760] was just collect every bit of data that
[02:03:34.639] we
[02:03:35.480] could. So for
[02:03:37.800] example when I went through my uh
[02:03:40.560] analysis of well if we could engineer
[02:03:43.920] general relativity what we'd expect to
[02:03:45.760] see a number of things came out of it.
[02:03:48.320] So for example in this room most of the
[02:03:52.400] electromagnetic energy we don't see.
[02:03:55.119] It's in the form of
[02:03:56.920] heat and we don't see heat. You know you
[02:03:59.840] get an infrared detector you can see it
[02:04:01.679] but we we don't see heat. Well, it turns
[02:04:04.960] out that under the conditions in which
[02:04:07.840] you're
[02:04:09.080] controlling gravity the way these craft
[02:04:12.320] appear to be doing, one of the
[02:04:14.960] consequences and one of the attributes
[02:04:17.040] that goes along with it is the
[02:04:19.040] frequencies get
[02:04:21.080] raised. And so the heat of a craft that
[02:04:25.440] you ordinarily wouldn't see can get
[02:04:28.080] raised up
[02:04:29.560] into the visible spectrum. And so that's
[02:04:32.960] why they might look so bright. That also
[02:04:36.400] has certain other additional
[02:04:37.840] consequences. That is if it's powered up
[02:04:40.560] and it's sitting there in the
[02:04:42.199] ground and you get too close
[02:04:45.760] uh the ordinary heat spectrum which
[02:04:47.760] isn't harmful or the visible spectrum
[02:04:50.239] which isn't harmful can be shifted up
[02:04:52.960] frequency into the ultraviolet and soft
[02:04:55.280] X-ray. So, if you get too close to a
[02:04:57.199] landing craft that's powered up, you
[02:04:58.719] might get a sunburn, which is one of the
[02:05:00.639] things that has been reported, or you
[02:05:02.880] might actually, in fact, get uh
[02:05:05.760] radiation poisoning from X-rays and and
[02:05:08.480] and so
[02:05:09.719] on. So, those kinds of things seem to go
[02:05:13.760] hand inand give us some clues of where
[02:05:16.320] to look. What is your take on the Travis
[02:05:18.320] Walton story? I think the Travis Walton
[02:05:21.520] story is right on. I I think that's a
[02:05:25.360] solid story. It's a very I don't I I
[02:05:27.760] don't have any as I have a bobblehead
[02:05:30.920] specific bobblehead. Oh yes. Okay.
[02:05:33.599] That's him. He gave it to me. I see.
[02:05:36.159] Okay. No, I think I I all aspects that
[02:05:39.119] I've seen of his story. I I take that as
[02:05:41.760] for people that don't know the story,
[02:05:43.040] I'll give you a brief synopsis or brief
[02:05:45.440] uh breakdown of what it was. They're
[02:05:47.040] loggers. They're driving through
[02:05:49.199] Arizona. They see this craft moving
[02:05:50.880] through the sky and it goes into the
[02:05:53.280] woods. Um, Travis gets out of the truck,
[02:05:56.560] runs towards it, gets too close to it,
[02:05:59.040] and is hit with some sort of a beam,
[02:06:01.440] flies back, falls down. The other guys
[02:06:03.840] panic. They take off in the truck. And
[02:06:05.760] as they're taking off, they're arguing
[02:06:07.199] that they need to go back and get him.
[02:06:09.199] We need to go help him. We need to go
[02:06:10.639] back and get him. They're all freaked
[02:06:11.920] out. They decide, "Yeah, we we got to go
[02:06:13.440] back." So, they turn around and he's
[02:06:15.599] gone. They get back to the spot. The
[02:06:17.440] craft is gone. and Travis is gone. Um,
[02:06:20.000] they reported, everyone's freaking out.
[02:06:21.920] No one knows. They suspect they might
[02:06:23.599] have killed him or something. 5 days
[02:06:25.920] later, Travis appears wearing the same
[02:06:27.920] clothes, looking none the worst for wear
[02:06:29.920] with this fantastic story that they took
[02:06:31.920] him aboard this craft. And they
[02:06:34.880] communicated with him and fixed his body
[02:06:37.199] that something happened to him upon the
[02:06:39.440] impact of whatever that ray was that hit
[02:06:41.760] him, that he was going to die. They
[02:06:43.520] repaired him and they communicated with
[02:06:46.000] him and brought him back.
[02:06:48.639] Five days later, he has this story. And
[02:06:51.119] he's had the same story for decades. And
[02:06:54.239] one of the reasons I accept that story
[02:06:56.239] is that, for example, the other people
[02:06:58.560] who left the site and then went back,
[02:07:01.280] they eventually uh did polygraphs on
[02:07:03.520] them and they passed the polygraphs. I
[02:07:06.239] mean, they weren't making up that story.
[02:07:08.320] Polygraphs are manipulatable. You can
[02:07:10.320] manipulate. Yeah, you can. But would I
[02:07:12.800] expect that some uh unsophisticated
[02:07:14.960] loggers? sophisticated loggers would do
[02:07:16.480] it. You know, particularly one of the
[02:07:17.840] guys didn't even like Travis. One of the
[02:07:19.760] guys, Travis, got into a fist fight with
[02:07:21.679] the actual day of the event. Oh my.
[02:07:25.119] Yeah. And he also told the exact same
[02:07:27.040] story, right? Yeah. So, there was a lot
[02:07:29.760] going on with that one. Um, and then
[02:07:32.239] there had been frequent sightings in
[02:07:34.480] that one particular area, which is also
[02:07:36.480] weird. Like, what is it about certain
[02:07:38.760] areas? I mean, there's the area that you
[02:07:41.360] discussed in Australia. Well, that would
[02:07:43.440] kind of make sense if There really is a
[02:07:46.320] base somewhere,
[02:07:48.560] you know, and the the real thought that
[02:07:51.280] keeps getting brought about in the
[02:07:53.199] zeitgeist is the ocean. That's the
[02:07:55.840] that's what people bring up all the
[02:07:57.119] time. If you wanted to hide in plain
[02:07:58.400] sight, where would you hide? Well, you
[02:07:59.599] hide in threequarters of the Earth's
[02:08:01.199] surface that we very rarely examine. and
[02:08:04.480] the observation of UFOs coming up,
[02:08:08.000] non-human intell intelligence craft
[02:08:10.560] coming up out of the ocean are they're
[02:08:13.440] all over the place. So, uh Tim God,
[02:08:17.040] who's uh uh ex-Navy admiral who had or
[02:08:21.040] he's he's a Navy admiral now retired who
[02:08:23.679] was in charge of Noah, the National
[02:08:26.679] Oceanographic, whatever it's called. uh
[02:08:30.079] he's really big on the idea of
[02:08:32.159] collecting data about UFOs emerging from
[02:08:36.320] the water and so it seems like uh the
[02:08:40.239] data on that is it's just all over the
[02:08:43.520] place. Also observing UFOs in the water
[02:08:48.239] zooming by submarines right at uh 400
[02:08:52.480] knots 500 knots or whatever without any
[02:08:55.119] cavitation. I mean, it's just it's just
[02:08:57.280] really so the the the data we're buried
[02:09:00.960] in data. Uh really uh we're just not
[02:09:04.960] buried in in how to explain it. Have any
[02:09:09.679] of these remote viewers tried to look at
[02:09:12.239] the bottom of the ocean?
[02:09:19.079] Um not that I'm aware of. Why wouldn't
[02:09:22.320] Now remove viewers have have zeroed in
[02:09:24.719] on on on UFOs although turns out not at
[02:09:28.079] the bottom of the ocean. Let let me give
[02:09:29.360] you an example.
[02:09:31.880] Uh but we we should probably do that. I
[02:09:35.000] mean since now these days I'm not
[02:09:37.599] involved in the remote viewing uh
[02:09:39.119] programs. So you maybe there are some
[02:09:41.440] but there are remote viewing programs
[02:09:42.960] that are still going on right now.
[02:09:45.920] I would say that's likely. I when you
[02:09:48.320] have an asset that works to some degree
[02:09:52.639] even though it's dismissed publicly.
[02:09:54.880] Even though it's dismissed publicly. So,
[02:09:57.040] so even after the SRRI program got shut
[02:09:59.760] down
[02:10:03.719] um and after I came out to Austin in
[02:10:08.239] what 85 to set up Earth International
[02:10:11.280] and the Institute for Advanced Studies
[02:10:12.560] in Austin.
[02:10:14.280] uh starting to pursue my physics stuff
[02:10:16.800] because I really wanted to pursue my
[02:10:18.159] physics. I didn't want to stay in
[02:10:19.920] looking at remote viewing forever. Uh
[02:10:22.079] but I got calls from certain
[02:10:26.000] intelligence agency asking me if I'd be
[02:10:28.800] willing to set up another program in
[02:10:31.280] remote viewing. And so I figured, okay,
[02:10:34.880] I I turn I turned them down because I
[02:10:36.800] liked the change I had made. But so if
[02:10:39.520] they ask me that, chances are they asked
[02:10:41.360] somebody else that and they probably got
[02:10:43.040] somebody to to agree to do it. And from
[02:10:46.639] time to time, many of the remote viewers
[02:10:49.360] that we trained
[02:10:52.520] uh in army incom for example have have
[02:10:56.000] now you know retired from the army and
[02:10:59.040] they're teaching remote viewing
[02:11:01.400] classes and they often get tasked by
[02:11:06.079] somebody back in the intelligence
[02:11:07.599] community to check out something. I mean
[02:11:11.280] they they've been very
[02:11:14.360] uh prolific in for example uh
[02:11:19.239] detecting say cargo ships coming across
[02:11:21.920] the ocean where certain containers full
[02:11:24.320] of dope really that's been
[02:11:27.880] released on the
[02:11:30.119] CIA site about remote viewing results
[02:11:33.599] and so you can find it. Of course, I I I
[02:11:36.480] tell any remote of viewers I know, you
[02:11:38.239] know, you don't don't want to advertise
[02:11:40.079] that because you don't want cartels
[02:11:41.599] nearby
[02:11:43.079] putting check on your back. So, yeah.
[02:11:46.480] But what what I'm interested in is that
[02:11:49.040] is the possibility of things under the
[02:11:50.639] ocean and and I would imagine if I was
[02:11:53.199] running a remote viewing program and I
[02:11:55.840] had suspicions that there's activity
[02:11:57.520] under the ocean like that craft that was
[02:11:59.440] seen that goes 500 knots under the water
[02:12:02.159] that I would start looking under there.
[02:12:04.480] I can well imagine that that somebody is
[02:12:06.719] you're just not aware of anything. I'm
[02:12:07.760] just not not aware of it. But there was
[02:12:09.920] there's this structure that exists off
[02:12:12.400] the coast of California at the bottom of
[02:12:13.840] the ocean that looks odd. Very odd. It
[02:12:16.560] looks very um constructed. It looks
[02:12:19.360] man-made or or intelligent in in its
[02:12:23.280] construction. And uh I was just looking
[02:12:25.280] at something on Google Earth the other
[02:12:26.719] day where people are having a hard time
[02:12:27.920] finding it now. And they're they're
[02:12:29.840] thinking that it's perhaps obscured.
[02:12:31.679] Obscured. Yeah. See if you can find that
[02:12:33.920] because I I know what you're talking
[02:12:36.000] about. You saw it as well. I saw as well
[02:12:37.920] and I It was certainly interesting. It
[02:12:40.480] looked very weird. You know, it looked
[02:12:42.960] like it looked like some sort of a base.
[02:12:45.679] It was flat on the top and it looked
[02:12:47.760] like it had openings in it. See, I lost
[02:12:50.159] your sound. Is there Oh, you
[02:12:52.679] did, Jamie. Um maybe it's your
[02:12:56.000] headphones or did you step on
[02:12:59.400] something? You hear me now?
[02:13:02.159] No, I mean I just hear you through the
[02:13:03.760] air, but not We got to take a break
[02:13:05.199] right now because I got to use the
[02:13:06.159] restroom anyway. Jamie will fix it and
[02:13:07.599] we'll be right back. Had a little
[02:13:09.520] tactical snafu. Use the restroom and
[02:13:11.760] we're back. Um, so I I forget exactly
[02:13:15.679] where we're at, but I know where I
[02:13:16.880] wanted to go. Where I wanted to go
[02:13:19.000] is we're talking about potential sources
[02:13:21.840] of energy, potential sources of
[02:13:25.199] propulsion systems.
[02:13:27.599] How
[02:13:28.679] much do you consider the possibility
[02:13:32.239] that the things that people are seeing
[02:13:34.239] are ours? They're they're made in some
[02:13:37.920] top secret program using some advanced
[02:13:41.599] propulsion system, some advanced energy
[02:13:43.760] system that is
[02:13:45.400] not publicly disclosed.
[02:13:49.520] I wouldn't rule out the fact that we may
[02:13:51.920] have some pretty fancy things uh running
[02:13:55.760] from our own labs. I I know that what
[02:13:58.880] gets developed in the dark labs uh some
[02:14:02.400] of which I know about are really
[02:14:04.560] advanced, but it just can't cover the
[02:14:09.239] whole observation that we're seeing with
[02:14:12.159] what we call NHI craft, non-human
[02:14:15.119] intelligence craft. Do you think that
[02:14:16.560] some of this stuff has been backgineered
[02:14:18.960] from these non-human crafts? Uh some of
[02:14:22.480] the materials I would say yes. I think
[02:14:25.040] we've got some uh I mean there it's it's
[02:14:27.280] it's out on the web uh these days that
[02:14:30.880] uh for example Battel Institute
[02:14:34.280] um has
[02:14:36.520] uh supposedly were given some materials
[02:14:39.880] from from
[02:14:43.800] um from the Roswell crash and uh we
[02:14:47.360] always hear the descriptions of this
[02:14:49.199] foil that you could crumple up and then
[02:14:52.400] you let go and it just flattens out
[02:14:54.560] again and so on. So material of that
[02:14:57.679] type was uh provided to Battel and they
[02:15:02.480] worked on it uh for some years to try to
[02:15:05.840] see if they could reproduce it and and
[02:15:07.840] the claim is that and it it's it's in
[02:15:10.560] the public domain that night came out of
[02:15:13.440] it which is that material that
[02:15:16.440] uh can be heated and then it'll reform
[02:15:19.920] uh into its original sorts. It doesn't
[02:15:23.040] exactly reproduce the effect you saw,
[02:15:25.880] but some of it uh is kind of in the
[02:15:29.280] direction of that. And it turned out
[02:15:30.880] that the some of the main material
[02:15:33.119] engineers that worked on
[02:15:35.159] that at their deathbed, they told their
[02:15:38.400] relatives that they were working on
[02:15:40.480] pieces from the Roswell crash and and
[02:15:43.599] they made some progress, but but not a
[02:15:45.920] lot. You you can look that up in on the
[02:15:48.400] internet and see that that's the case.
[02:15:50.159] is part of the limitation this thing
[02:15:51.679] that we're discussing earlier about
[02:15:53.639] compartmentalization and the the the the
[02:15:56.400] lack of ability of other scientists to
[02:15:58.880] get access to this material so they can
[02:16:00.560] collaborate. Yes, the
[02:16:02.599] compartmentalization I would say is the
[02:16:05.079] biggest
[02:16:06.920] impediment to making really good
[02:16:10.440] progress. Uh for sure I I think that's
[02:16:13.440] the case and this conundrum has sort of
[02:16:15.199] existed for quite a long time. Quite a
[02:16:17.599] long time. This is something also in
[02:16:20.079] line with what Bob Lazar said. Bob Lazar
[02:16:22.719] said the big frustration when he was
[02:16:24.560] working, he was tasked with trying to
[02:16:27.280] figure out the propulsion system, but he
[02:16:29.920] had no access to the metallurgists. He
[02:16:32.399] had no access to anyone else that was
[02:16:36.080] also working on similar things. And he's
[02:16:37.760] like, "Science just can't progress this
[02:16:39.439] way. It needs to be collaborative."
[02:16:41.840] Absolutely right. That's
[02:16:43.559] 100%. And it's even worse than you would
[02:16:46.319] think. I mean, one of the stories that I
[02:16:48.719] ran into was
[02:16:53.800] um a corporation had materials from
[02:16:58.280] crashes in their
[02:17:00.840] basement. They couldn't even bring them
[02:17:03.200] up to the top floor for their own
[02:17:05.280] scientists to look at because it was so
[02:17:07.120] compartmentalized.
[02:17:08.880] And so that was part of the deal where
[02:17:11.040] we said, "Okay, well, give them to us
[02:17:14.160] and then we'll come in the front door
[02:17:16.319] and give them to your scientists and we
[02:17:18.479] won't say it came from your basement and
[02:17:20.559] we won't say what it had to do with and
[02:17:23.040] you know, maybe that would work." But
[02:17:24.880] that that got shut down. So it was so
[02:17:27.280] compartmentalized. So
[02:17:29.120] compartmentalization is really a death
[02:17:31.120] now on on much of this stuff. As I say,
[02:17:34.160] as I go back to my uh teller story,
[02:17:38.679] um more
[02:17:40.840] collaboration, even though there are
[02:17:43.679] faults that can happen and material can
[02:17:45.840] leak out and information can leak out
[02:17:48.240] and that might help an adversary, still
[02:17:50.960] I think more openness would be would be
[02:17:53.200] a better idea. Oh, for sure. Well,
[02:17:55.040] definitely for you and I who are
[02:17:57.120] fascinated by this thing, right? What
[02:17:59.599] have you had a personal experience with
[02:18:02.240] anything that you can't explain?
[02:18:05.679] No, actually haven't. So for you it's I
[02:18:08.639] mean I mean one time I saw what appeared
[02:18:10.559] to be a satellite make a right angle
[02:18:12.479] turn. So that like falls into that kind
[02:18:14.399] of a category but who knows who knows
[02:18:17.120] what it was. Right. So no nothing
[02:18:20.479] profound. Nothing profound. So, you've
[02:18:22.800] never been hopped in a jet and flown to
[02:18:26.319] the wreckage and had a chance to look at
[02:18:28.960] things? No, haven't. Don't you want to?
[02:18:32.479] Well, I sure would like to do that. Uh
[02:18:36.800] but that's that that's still that's
[02:18:38.559] still
[02:18:40.840] uh we had this discussion earlier about
[02:18:44.319] uh you know well for example in the
[02:18:46.880] remote viewing or quantum entanglement
[02:18:50.359] or you know what's going on that in our
[02:18:53.280] physics that we don't understand that
[02:18:55.120] that these kinds of things can be
[02:18:57.439] happening and
[02:18:59.439] uh you'll be interested to know that uh
[02:19:02.240] someone you know John Paul Deorio
[02:19:06.000] uh uh and I are in partnership to
[02:19:09.639] explore a new means of communication
[02:19:14.000] uh quantum
[02:19:15.559] communications. And so I'm actually now
[02:19:18.160] at this point uh directly involved in a
[02:19:20.880] program to
[02:19:22.439] examine quantum communications. And so
[02:19:25.760] it turns out that uh whereas ordinary
[02:19:28.240] electromagnetic communications you know
[02:19:30.800] can't get through barriers metal door or
[02:19:33.760] whatever. Well why is that? It's because
[02:19:35.760] the electromagnetic signal when it gets
[02:19:38.319] to the metal door uh the electric and
[02:19:41.200] magnetic field generate counteracting
[02:19:43.280] effects and so the signal can't get
[02:19:45.280] through.
[02:19:46.960] So it turned out that uh some years ago
[02:19:49.920] uh when I was digging around to try to
[02:19:52.080] find out how to explain unusual effects,
[02:19:56.160] I dug deeper into electromagnetism down
[02:19:59.680] into the quantum levels and recognized
[02:20:02.080] that there are some additional quantum
[02:20:05.240] processes where you could end up
[02:20:07.920] suppressing the electric and magnetic
[02:20:09.840] fields, but you would still have a
[02:20:12.160] quantum signal which in principle could
[02:20:15.200] get
[02:20:16.200] through barriers. And so that would mean
[02:20:19.600] okay uh if that's the case and you could
[02:20:22.319] communicate to
[02:20:24.200] submarines. So whereas the saltwater is
[02:20:27.200] sufficiently conductive then
[02:20:29.120] electromagnetic signal can't get down
[02:20:30.960] there and
[02:20:31.960] communicate if you are able to pull out
[02:20:35.280] the electric and magnetic components but
[02:20:37.520] you still have an underlying quantum
[02:20:39.760] aspect to it you could get through. Or
[02:20:42.640] same thing with uh you know spaceships
[02:20:44.960] you know when our spaceships came back
[02:20:47.120] from when the Apollo spaceships came
[02:20:48.720] back once they started in our atmosphere
[02:20:50.800] and are surrounded by plasma we have
[02:20:53.120] this period where there's no
[02:20:55.720] communication well for the very reason
[02:20:58.240] that electromagnetic signals can't get
[02:21:00.080] through to charge plasmas but this
[02:21:02.960] quantum communication aspect could. What
[02:21:06.479] would you use to how would you encode
[02:21:09.760] the information quantumly and how would
[02:21:12.000] you project it? What kind of machinery
[02:21:14.800] would be involved in something like
[02:21:16.080] that? Well, it turns out that the
[02:21:18.399] machinery to generate the signals would
[02:21:21.560] be
[02:21:23.080] very explicitly designed antenna
[02:21:26.280] structures that are put together in such
[02:21:28.319] a way as to prevent
[02:21:31.479] electromagnetic components from being
[02:21:33.920] transmitted.
[02:21:35.600] It's the detection part where the secret
[02:21:38.880] to the technology is because it turns
[02:21:40.880] out then
[02:21:42.760] okay if electromagnetic signals aren't
[02:21:46.600] there how are you going to detect s such
[02:21:49.120] a signal because all of our detectors
[02:21:52.160] are you know electromagnetic signal
[02:21:54.640] comes in and generates a current and
[02:21:57.399] whatever. Well, it turns out that the
[02:22:00.319] special kinds of signaling at the
[02:22:02.479] quantum level can only be detected by
[02:22:05.760] quantum devices. Quantum devices can
[02:22:10.120] detect these quantum communication
[02:22:12.560] signals uh even if there's no electric
[02:22:15.520] and magnetic effects associated with
[02:22:18.000] them. So that's what we're that's what
[02:22:20.240] we're looking at. And so when I think
[02:22:22.640] about uh okay well you know what areas
[02:22:25.280] does this have application for? Well, of
[02:22:28.479] course, it's got a lot of application
[02:22:30.160] for things like communication and under
[02:22:32.800] conditions where you'd like to overcome
[02:22:34.760] shielding, but it may have something to
[02:22:36.960] do even with some of the consciousness
[02:22:39.160] stuff because ordinarily, you know, when
[02:22:41.680] you hear about
[02:22:44.439] uh people trying to think, well, what
[02:22:47.840] about consciousness? Is it still just
[02:22:49.680] all molecules and neurons whirling
[02:22:52.399] around or are there some additional
[02:22:55.240] fields? There are a couple of
[02:22:57.080] physicists, well a physicist and an
[02:22:59.280] anesthesiologist,
[02:23:01.359] uh, the physicist Roger Penrose who got
[02:23:04.000] a Nobel Prize for general relativity
[02:23:06.280] stuff and Stu
[02:23:09.560] Hammeroff who is an anesthesiologist.
[02:23:13.439] They coupled up and started saying okay
[02:23:16.560] is there a possibility that there are
[02:23:18.240] quantum aspects in ordinary life in
[02:23:21.520] ordinary
[02:23:22.760] consciousness because sounds kind of
[02:23:25.840] reasonable. The anesthesiologist says
[02:23:28.080] well when I give somebody a certain
[02:23:29.359] anesthetic they lose consciousness. So
[02:23:32.319] there must be something about the
[02:23:34.920] anesthesiathesia that grabs onto
[02:23:38.000] whatever is responsible for
[02:23:39.200] consciousness. So make long story short,
[02:23:41.439] they came up with a model where they
[02:23:43.200] felt that there are in fact quantum
[02:23:46.120] processes occurring within the
[02:23:48.920] brain that in addition to the stuff we
[02:23:52.000] all read about, know about like neurons
[02:23:54.399] and all that kind of stuff. There's also
[02:23:57.120] a distribution throughout uh our brain
[02:23:59.840] and nervous system of what's called
[02:24:01.600] microtubules.
[02:24:03.920] And turns out microtubules uh have such
[02:24:06.720] a
[02:24:08.200] structure you do experiments in lab to
[02:24:11.200] show this that they can detect quantum
[02:24:15.160] signals. So the idea that even in our
[02:24:18.359] consciousness there are mechanisms for
[02:24:21.439] detecting quantum signals is like a
[02:24:24.240] whole new area to investigate. And so
[02:24:27.920] there are some uh you know biological
[02:24:31.520] and consciousness oriented uh
[02:24:34.080] experimenters that are taking a look at
[02:24:36.640] this idea that
[02:24:38.120] okay instead of just saying quantum
[02:24:40.560] entanglement that's how information get
[02:24:43.520] from here to there maybe we can actually
[02:24:45.600] find out okay well what's the mechanism
[02:24:48.160] though and so this is a whole new area
[02:24:52.560] it turns out that
[02:24:55.319] uh I developed proof of principle for
[02:24:58.680] this subrosa quantum communication stuff
[02:25:02.800] uh on
[02:25:03.800] a classified contract back in the '9s
[02:25:08.280] actually. So I got proof of principle in
[02:25:11.200] that in that situation. However, you say
[02:25:14.399] okay well if you got proof of principle
[02:25:16.080] then why aren't we using it? Why isn't
[02:25:17.760] it all over the place? It turned out
[02:25:19.520] that quantum detection quantum detectors
[02:25:21.920] were very uh you know new kinds of uh
[02:25:27.680] circuitry and not nothing ready for
[02:25:30.560] prime time. So I put that whole thing on
[02:25:32.640] the shelf, let it uh sit there for a
[02:25:35.920] while. And now because of quantum
[02:25:38.200] computing, it turns out a lot of
[02:25:40.399] research effort is going to develop
[02:25:43.160] uh cryogenic circuitry near absolute
[02:25:46.479] zero to be used in quantum computing. So
[02:25:49.280] I said, okay, they got uh these Joseen
[02:25:52.960] junctions working, which is exactly what
[02:25:54.800] I want to use for my detection scheme.
[02:25:58.000] And so I find time decide to take it off
[02:26:00.479] the shelf. So uh I approached uh JP and
[02:26:06.040] uh showed him what the potential
[02:26:09.080] was not only in just communications but
[02:26:12.080] maybe it has implications for you know
[02:26:14.640] biological things or medical things or
[02:26:17.120] whatever because of this other work on
[02:26:19.840] microtubules. So so he said okay well
[02:26:22.720] let's let's let's go for it. So we we
[02:26:25.120] have another major lab that is actually
[02:26:27.680] putting together circuitry for us uh
[02:26:31.120] that obsolet operates about 3.7 degrees
[02:26:35.040] above absolute zero. I mean this is this
[02:26:38.080] is really quite a technical challenge
[02:26:41.040] but uh he and I are working in that
[02:26:43.200] together. He's my he's my uh
[02:26:45.439] collaborator. Fascinating. Um quantum
[02:26:48.399] entanglement is is that what you think
[02:26:50.640] was going on with the algae? So if you
[02:26:52.880] were able to do something to the algae
[02:26:55.120] in one area, this this same colony of
[02:26:58.479] algae when you had separated by long
[02:27:00.640] distances, they instantaneously
[02:27:02.319] recognized that something was happening.
[02:27:04.800] That's the only thing I can imagine at
[02:27:07.439] this point based on the physics we know.
[02:27:09.600] How far were they separated in distance?
[02:27:11.840] Well, I was going to separate. It was
[02:27:13.280] about five miles. As it turns out, I
[02:27:15.359] never actually got to do that experiment
[02:27:17.120] because the CIA came and and scooped me
[02:27:19.840] up and said, "Well, we got to look at
[02:27:21.840] this remote viewing." And so even though
[02:27:24.240] I proposed doing the
[02:27:26.040] experiment, the polygraph said that guy
[02:27:29.280] said this would be a great experiment,
[02:27:31.600] never got around to doing the experiment
[02:27:33.520] because along the way Ingo Swan, you
[02:27:37.520] know, visited his lab, came out and
[02:27:40.720] perturbed
[02:27:41.960] the tiny quantum chip in the super
[02:27:45.359] shielded environment that brought the
[02:27:47.840] CIA on my doorstep and so then we went
[02:27:50.560] off in that direction. So I never got to
[02:27:52.000] do the experiment. So as you consider
[02:27:54.479] all these technologies as these
[02:27:56.640] innovations occur and technology becomes
[02:27:58.960] more and more powerful like quantum
[02:28:01.040] computing like many of these things that
[02:28:03.040] we're seeing now. Do you think that
[02:28:05.280] these are all
[02:28:07.319] steps to further understand how these
[02:28:11.680] crafts could possibly work? and we're
[02:28:14.000] getting closer and closer to it
[02:28:16.920] where
[02:28:18.439] disclosure would accelerate that
[02:28:22.120] and we would have to get over this. We'd
[02:28:25.280] have to get we'd have to have some sort
[02:28:26.800] of amnesty. Amnesty towards the people
[02:28:29.439] that that misappropriated funds and lied
[02:28:32.080] to Congress. Amnesty towards whatever
[02:28:35.040] defense contractors were given access to
[02:28:37.359] this equipment or this these materials
[02:28:39.760] and other ones. There has to be some
[02:28:42.479] executive decision that's made where
[02:28:44.640] like look for the greater good of the
[02:28:46.399] human race, we have to bypass all of
[02:28:48.720] these blockades that are involved in us
[02:28:51.200] being able to truly understand what's
[02:28:52.720] going on here. And one of them is we
[02:28:54.560] have to have disclosure. Yes, exactly.
[02:28:57.520] And in fact, uh we're not alone in
[02:28:59.600] thinking that way. uh as you may as many
[02:29:02.880] in the field are aware of
[02:29:06.240] uh in
[02:29:09.640] 2023 then majority leader Senate
[02:29:12.960] majority leader Chuck Schu Chuck uh yeah
[02:29:15.920] Chuck Schumer and a Republican uh
[02:29:19.760] Senator
[02:29:21.080] Rounds got together and they put
[02:29:24.000] together an
[02:29:26.280] outline of an amendment to be attached
[02:29:30.000] to the National Defense Authorization
[02:29:31.680] Act
[02:29:34.760] called UAP Disclosure Act
[02:29:38.280] 2023 and it's pages and pages
[02:29:41.960] long. And it's hard to believe, but
[02:29:46.479] within this uh document, they outline
[02:29:50.720] how you would go through
[02:29:53.160] disclosure. And uh it's it's it's very
[02:29:56.479] detailed. I mean, for example, this is
[02:29:59.280] an official government document. You can
[02:30:02.080] go find it on the
[02:30:04.600] internet. Nonhuman intelligence phrase
[02:30:08.479] is mentioned more than 20 times. Whoa.
[02:30:12.080] And the document said, look, what we
[02:30:15.359] need is a presidential
[02:30:18.920] panel, president say officiated panel of
[02:30:23.840] people from several different uh areas.
[02:30:28.240] who and and all those people out there
[02:30:30.960] who have materials and so on. We're
[02:30:33.680] going to practice imminent
[02:30:35.560] domain, which is turns out to be one of
[02:30:38.000] the things that turns people hair on
[02:30:40.319] fire when they think they've got
[02:30:42.319] something and don't want to share it.
[02:30:44.080] But anyway, that we have to come up with
[02:30:46.640] a process
[02:30:49.399] whereby corporations that have been
[02:30:51.520] involved in this can begin to share
[02:30:54.240] their history and their data and their
[02:30:58.760] materials. And the National Archives
[02:31:01.520] will be set up
[02:31:03.800] to make this information available as is
[02:31:08.560] safe to do considering security
[02:31:11.160] concerns. And so this is a multi-page
[02:31:14.640] document
[02:31:16.600] uh that you can find you can find it on
[02:31:19.120] the internet. Okay, it passed the Senate
[02:31:23.200] but the House killed it. So you might
[02:31:26.880] think, okay, well that's the end of
[02:31:29.000] that. Surprisingly so, and it makes you
[02:31:32.880] realize the intensity of this. After it
[02:31:35.680] was killed, both Schumer and Rounds got
[02:31:39.359] back up on in the Senate floor and said,
[02:31:42.520] "Okay, it got killed, but we're not
[02:31:45.359] giving up. We're going to get it in
[02:31:47.520] there next year." And so the following
[02:31:50.399] year,
[02:31:51.479] 2024, they included it
[02:31:54.040] again.
[02:31:56.120] And most of it got killed. The only
[02:31:58.640] thing that got killed was okay, the
[02:32:00.399] National Archives will make available uh
[02:32:03.280] whatever information is provided them on
[02:32:05.520] on this subject area and the National
[02:32:07.840] Archives has started to do that. But as
[02:32:09.920] you can imagine, anybody who's got some
[02:32:12.000] really juicy stuff isn't going to give
[02:32:13.600] it to the National Archives. So that's
[02:32:16.160] it's still dead in the water. So anyway,
[02:32:18.800] recently uh I was asked to come in and
[02:32:21.479] brief Senator Rounds, who was one of the
[02:32:24.800] two people who pushed this, and he said,
[02:32:28.240] "We're not giving up on
[02:32:30.760] this. Give me what you found so far
[02:32:34.720] about the physics of
[02:32:36.600] this because when we try to push
[02:32:40.120] it, we always get the push back that
[02:32:43.160] well, you know, we're not going to make
[02:32:45.200] any headway. The pilots say this is way
[02:32:47.120] beyond our physics, but I understand
[02:32:49.200] that you and your colleagues have worked
[02:32:50.880] on this and felt that you can provide
[02:32:53.439] some of the physics. We may not get the
[02:32:55.439] engineering yet, but we have someplace
[02:32:57.040] to start. Is that true? Because I need
[02:32:59.439] to push back on the push back.
[02:33:02.240] So I gave him a long lecture on on the
[02:33:06.120] physics which I've also presented to the
[02:33:09.200] Senate select committee on intelligence,
[02:33:11.439] the Senate Armed Services
[02:33:13.240] Committee,
[02:33:15.080] Arrow, the old domain anomalies
[02:33:18.720] resolution
[02:33:19.960] office. So the information is coming out
[02:33:23.280] into those places and
[02:33:26.359] um and so though there are those people
[02:33:29.680] in high positions of power
[02:33:32.840] in our Congress who are really pushing
[02:33:36.280] it. So for example, as it turns out,
[02:33:39.479] tomorrow there's going to be a big
[02:33:41.520] meeting. Uh I think it was set up by
[02:33:45.120] Representative Luna or Yeah, I think
[02:33:47.920] it's Representative Luna. you know, when
[02:33:49.840] they put out that official document
[02:33:52.479] saying, "Okay, JFK files are coming
[02:33:55.800] out, RFK files are coming
[02:33:58.760] out, MLK files are coming out." In that
[02:34:02.920] list, UFO files are coming out. Well,
[02:34:05.920] they haven't gotten there. The Epstein
[02:34:07.359] files are coming out. Okay, so it's
[02:34:10.000] officially on that list. So, in fact, as
[02:34:12.880] it turns out, tomorrow there's going to
[02:34:14.640] be a big thing in Congress where they're
[02:34:16.560] going to have an open hearing uh with
[02:34:18.640] people coming forward uh to talk about
[02:34:21.280] uh that there should be some release of
[02:34:24.640] some steps forward to release this kind
[02:34:26.640] of data. So, it is not a dead issue. I
[02:34:29.520] mean, it is hot and there are a lot of
[02:34:32.240] really powerful people behind it. But
[02:34:35.439] you've got the resistance
[02:34:37.840] uh buried. I mean there are people
[02:34:40.640] within the uh intelligence community and
[02:34:44.160] uh the DoD who do think we need more
[02:34:47.120] openness. They see the same issues I see
[02:34:50.319] that we're not making much progress
[02:34:51.920] because everything is so
[02:34:53.280] compartmentalized. Right.
[02:34:55.359] So, uh, is there a concern? It's an
[02:34:56.960] ongoing thing. When when you talked
[02:34:58.720] about during the Bush administration,
[02:35:00.240] you were tasked along with others to try
[02:35:02.399] to figure out what are the pros and what
[02:35:03.680] are the cons and what what outweighs
[02:35:05.600] what and you they your group decided
[02:35:08.319] that the cons outweighed the pros. When
[02:35:11.040] it comes to disclosure today, with the
[02:35:13.520] risk of espionage and with the risk of
[02:35:16.880] this information, if it becomes
[02:35:18.960] disclosed and everybody has access to
[02:35:21.439] it, clearly if it's disclosed to the
[02:35:23.439] general public, it's also going to be
[02:35:24.640] disclosed to our our enemies, right? And
[02:35:26.479] so this becomes an issue of national
[02:35:28.240] security. Yes. So it's got to be done
[02:35:31.120] correctly. How would one do that? Well,
[02:35:34.359] this write up that Schumer and Rounds
[02:35:37.120] and and some other people, Gilibbran
[02:35:39.359] Gillibran and Rubio uh put together
[02:35:43.040] said, "Okay, we're going to have to lay
[02:35:45.359] everything out in the table at a high
[02:35:47.200] classified area. We're going to have to
[02:35:50.319] sort our way through of what can be
[02:35:53.040] released that doesn't take the chance of
[02:35:56.800] giving our ad potential adversaries data
[02:35:59.920] they need to to leap ahead of us.
[02:36:03.520] But nonetheless, we've got to have more
[02:36:07.040] collaboration so that we can move ahead
[02:36:09.399] faster. So that's that's the job of uh
[02:36:12.720] at least in that document of a
[02:36:14.160] nine-person panel to figure out, okay,
[02:36:16.800] what could be released without
[02:36:19.080] jeopardizing our national security so
[02:36:21.680] much, but nonetheless
[02:36:24.200] accelerating the kind of collaboration
[02:36:26.399] we need to make headway faster. And then
[02:36:29.920] there's the issue
[02:36:32.040] of when it does get disclosed, like what
[02:36:35.920] happens to the general public's
[02:36:37.840] perception. If this is like a national
[02:36:40.160] disclosure, if the president, if Trump
[02:36:42.800] gets on television and discloses
[02:36:46.080] everything we know so far, we are in
[02:36:48.160] possession of
[02:36:50.680] 10 vehicles, however you want to call
[02:36:53.760] them, of non-human intelligence that are
[02:36:56.160] not ours. We have been working on this
[02:36:58.399] for decades in secret in secrecy. But
[02:37:02.000] because of the fact that everything has
[02:37:04.479] been so secret and everything's so
[02:37:06.359] compartmentalized, innovation has been
[02:37:08.319] stagnant. Our understanding of it has
[02:37:10.319] been stagnant. The only way forward is
[02:37:12.560] to disclose. But this is going to come
[02:37:14.160] with a radical reimagining of our place
[02:37:17.120] in the universe.
[02:37:19.920] What you've just described is what I
[02:37:22.160] think has to happen. I mean, because you
[02:37:26.160] have whistleblowers like Dave Grush
[02:37:28.240] coming forward and he basically says,
[02:37:30.880] "We've got craft, we've got bodies,
[02:37:33.439] we've got uh aerospace corporations
[02:37:36.960] working on this behind the
[02:37:39.720] scenes." But in the end, that doesn't go
[02:37:42.640] anywhere. It doesn't really solve the
[02:37:44.240] problem.
[02:37:46.000] And you have people uh come forward and
[02:37:49.439] said,
[02:37:50.520] "Look, I can give you the address of
[02:37:53.040] where the stuff is stored, so we can
[02:37:55.520] take this out of the discussion area and
[02:37:57.920] really prove
[02:37:59.720] something." But it would take it would
[02:38:02.160] take, I think, a presidential uh
[02:38:04.800] executive order or something to to to
[02:38:09.200] light a fire under that process to have
[02:38:11.840] it happen. So, but that's all possible.
[02:38:14.800] It's all possible. And when I compare,
[02:38:17.760] you know, where are we today as compared
[02:38:19.920] to where we were
[02:38:22.840] in 2004 or whenever that
[02:38:26.600] uh other disclosure discussion took
[02:38:30.520] place at that time there was a lot of
[02:38:33.479] stigma. There was no proof you could
[02:38:35.920] kind of put your hands on.
[02:38:39.880] Uh there was in fact purposely designed
[02:38:44.240] misinformation by the intelligence
[02:38:46.680] community so-called Robertson panel went
[02:38:49.760] out of their way to you know say this is
[02:38:52.560] all nonsense. So that was something
[02:38:55.040] you're dealing with. So there you
[02:38:56.319] realize well if I come forward and say
[02:38:57.760] there's really something to this I'm I'm
[02:38:59.760] really blasting through quite a brick
[02:39:02.399] wall here. But in the intervening in
[02:39:05.359] intervening
[02:39:06.840] uh decades, I think we've gotten to a
[02:39:10.080] point
[02:39:10.920] where the reasons we had to not do it
[02:39:14.120] then are no longer
[02:39:17.960] applicable. But some of the concerns we
[02:39:20.399] had discussed then are still applicable
[02:39:23.760] and have to be we have to pay attention
[02:39:25.439] to them. So I think uh for example this
[02:39:29.280] uh film that you saw that had its
[02:39:31.280] premiere at uh South by Southwest that
[02:39:34.319] uh Dan Farah put out and a upcoming book
[02:39:38.720] coming out uh by Jay Stratton who was in
[02:39:42.800] charge of the UAP task force. These kind
[02:39:45.760] of things are going to
[02:39:48.920] accelerate that option.
[02:39:51.920] And so I think it's only a matter I mean
[02:39:55.040] I would find it difficult to believe
[02:39:58.000] that within a decade we're not going to
[02:40:00.720] figure out how to do this and that there
[02:40:03.359] will be what you and I would call
[02:40:06.600] disclosure but in a responsible way
[02:40:09.760] where we're not uh providing the enemy
[02:40:12.720] uh you know information they need. I
[02:40:15.040] mean, I recall when the when the when
[02:40:16.560] the DoD program was set up out of DIA,
[02:40:19.600] they said, "Well, we need to investigate
[02:40:22.800] this to find out whose craft there are,
[02:40:26.880] you know, what how do they run and
[02:40:28.560] whatever, whatever." And then the second
[02:40:30.880] reason was what if our potential
[02:40:34.040] adversaries get access or figure this
[02:40:37.600] out from their data collection before we
[02:40:40.160] do and they leap ahead of us. So it
[02:40:42.880] turned out that whole program was not
[02:40:44.800] based on one. They couldn't care less
[02:40:48.240] where these things were coming from,
[02:40:49.600] what their intentions were. They're
[02:40:51.120] really worried about the possibility of
[02:40:52.720] an adversary getting ahead of us. So
[02:40:54.720] that was the driving force behind the
[02:40:56.800] whole program. Well, now having all
[02:40:59.439] these intervening years go by and uh you
[02:41:03.280] know, there hasn't been any obvious
[02:41:05.280] super breakthrough by
[02:41:07.880] adversaries, I think, now is the time we
[02:41:10.479] could have a kind of a reconciliation
[02:41:12.600] process. Uh make sure we don't put
[02:41:15.200] everybody in jail and anything to do
[02:41:16.960] with covering this up. Provide uh proper
[02:41:20.840] lanes to bring various aspects of
[02:41:24.080] information forward. And so that's uh
[02:41:26.800] that's what I and colleagues that I
[02:41:29.520] interact with uh are trying to do today.
[02:41:32.960] I would also think that if I was looking
[02:41:37.439] at civilization particularly United
[02:41:39.920] States civilization and thinking what
[02:41:43.439] kind of an impact would things have in
[02:41:45.560] 2004 with with
[02:41:47.800] disclosure and what kind of an impact
[02:41:50.080] would they have in 2025. I think that
[02:41:52.640] this gradual acceptance and this
[02:41:56.040] understanding that this is probably a
[02:41:58.880] real phenomenon is much more widespread
[02:42:01.520] today. So the the concept of it it
[02:42:03.760] wouldn't be as shocking as it would have
[02:42:06.880] been two decades ago. You know, two
[02:42:08.960] decades ago, by the way, is when the the
[02:42:12.560] tic tac vehicle was was observed, which
[02:42:16.080] is 2004, which is really kind of crazy
[02:42:18.160] when you think about the technology that
[02:42:20.160] was required to do something. And then
[02:42:22.240] imagine that that technology being ours
[02:42:24.880] in 2004. It seems preposterous, right?
[02:42:27.280] It seems almost outside of the realm of
[02:42:29.560] even whatever top secret programs could
[02:42:33.359] have been running, some black programs
[02:42:35.120] could have been running. That seems too
[02:42:36.720] much. It is too much. It seems too
[02:42:38.479] crazy. So, as the I think a big
[02:42:42.000] breakthrough and I think you probably
[02:42:43.200] agree with the New York Times, that 2017
[02:42:46.240] report in the New York Times was huge
[02:42:48.080] because here it is in the most
[02:42:49.840] prestigious newspaper in the United
[02:42:51.200] States in the world, right? And it's
[02:42:53.680] saying, look, there's there's real
[02:42:55.280] things happening here and there's real
[02:42:57.200] people who are a very high level who are
[02:42:59.439] talking about these things, whether it's
[02:43:01.359] Commander Fraver or Ryan Graves or all
[02:43:03.840] these different fighter pilots that have
[02:43:05.200] encountered these things that are just
[02:43:06.880] doing something that is beyond
[02:43:09.319] explanation. This is more in the zeicist
[02:43:12.000] now. Yes, there's and the more you have
[02:43:14.960] people like James Fox and Jeremy Corbel
[02:43:17.920] and these documentaries that get out and
[02:43:20.000] more and more of an understanding and
[02:43:21.200] appreciation of fact that these aren't
[02:43:22.960] cooks. The these are real people and we
[02:43:26.479] need to take into consideration the very
[02:43:29.319] obvious possibility that we are not
[02:43:32.240] unique. There's too many planets,
[02:43:35.040] there's too many solar systems, there's
[02:43:36.720] too many galaxies, there's too and then
[02:43:39.280] dimensions. Yes. And then just the
[02:43:41.840] potential of like what what do we look
[02:43:44.880] like in a million years? What do we look
[02:43:47.359] like in a million years? And if we, you
[02:43:50.560] know, existed in this form for hundreds
[02:43:53.439] of thousands of years, it's not
[02:43:54.720] inconceivable that a species like us
[02:43:58.720] could keep going with its innovative
[02:44:02.000] trajectory. Yes. And achieve some state
[02:44:04.720] a million years from now that is just
[02:44:06.720] beyond our imagination currently. and
[02:44:10.319] that we might be experiencing that,
[02:44:12.800] right? But I I think you have laid out
[02:44:15.439] an exact map of the real situation and
[02:44:20.720] what the future probably holds for us
[02:44:24.080] and the fact
[02:44:26.279] that now is the time sooner rather than
[02:44:30.040] later to begin to have this become part
[02:44:32.880] of our
[02:44:33.960] total philosophical fabric to face into
[02:44:37.920] this and to accept the reality of you
[02:44:41.600] know nonhuman human intelligences, for
[02:44:44.120] example, and recognize that uh our own
[02:44:48.960] technical development is moving so fast
[02:44:52.080] that the kind of things that we find to
[02:44:54.000] be so mysterious are pretty much likely
[02:44:57.120] in our not that far off future. Well,
[02:44:59.600] just what we see with the leaps that
[02:45:01.040] quantum computing exactly is able to
[02:45:03.359] achieve equations that would take
[02:45:05.279] standard computing billions of years. It
[02:45:06.880] could do it in four minutes. Exactly.
[02:45:09.040] Just just you hear that and you go,
[02:45:10.319] "What are you even saying?" That's
[02:45:12.080] right. In fact, my son this morning uh
[02:45:14.720] brought up that article uh and you know
[02:45:18.560] it's just it's it's un kind of
[02:45:20.399] unbelievable. So, uh it's unbelievable
[02:45:22.880] and it's real. It's unbelievable and
[02:45:24.479] it's real and it's happening right now.
[02:45:25.920] And then just imagine taking
[02:45:27.960] that 50 years. Yes. 50 years ago that
[02:45:31.520] was science fiction. Complete science
[02:45:34.080] fiction. That's right. I mean I I love
[02:45:36.160] my example of uh in fact I got it into
[02:45:39.200] the New York Times article. Suppose you
[02:45:41.520] gave Leonardo da Vinci a garage door
[02:45:43.560] opener. You what could he do? Well,
[02:45:47.040] right. First of all, plastic. He doesn't
[02:45:49.120] know what plastic is. Secondly, when he
[02:45:51.520] opens it up and sees all these little
[02:45:53.200] tiny
[02:45:54.120] things, he'd never heard of
[02:45:57.080] electromagnetism. Uh I mean, there's no
[02:45:59.680] way that even okay or give Einstein an
[02:46:03.160] iPhone back in 19 45 or something, you
[02:46:07.279] know, right? What what could he do with
[02:46:09.279] it? So that's sort of the position that
[02:46:11.520] we kind of have been in to see these
[02:46:14.399] craft that we get access to either
[02:46:16.960] through crashes or quote donations and
[02:46:20.479] uh you know it's it's it's really
[02:46:22.479] mysterious but nonetheless uh we should
[02:46:26.160] do our best and these days because of
[02:46:29.120] the development of quantum uh
[02:46:31.920] technologies and so on we have better
[02:46:33.760] tools we have AI on our side to move
[02:46:37.520] fast through some calculations and
[02:46:40.080] stuff. So I so I think I think this is
[02:46:42.479] the time where uh disclosure is going to
[02:46:46.560] happen and relatively soon. Well, it's
[02:46:49.760] if it does happen, it's thanks to people
[02:46:51.520] like you that stuck their neck out for
[02:46:53.439] many many years and I'm sure you
[02:46:55.040] experienced a lot of ridicule and side
[02:46:56.800] eyes. Sure did. Right. In fact, I
[02:47:00.160] remember uh when I was involved in the
[02:47:02.000] remote viewing program, uh one of my
[02:47:04.399] sons was attending a uh grammar school
[02:47:08.319] and uh one day uh another father's kid
[02:47:12.319] came over to play with him and when the
[02:47:15.600] other uh professor actually at Stanford
[02:47:19.359] came over and said, "Uh, I brought my
[02:47:22.000] kid over to play with you, but his last
[02:47:23.520] name is put off. are you associated with
[02:47:25.880] that put off at SRRI and that remote
[02:47:29.279] viewing? I said, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, I
[02:47:31.600] am." And he said, "Okay, my son's not
[02:47:33.840] going to come over and play with you."
[02:47:35.840] Anyway, so you run into that run into
[02:47:39.920] that. But I don't know. Some people Why
[02:47:41.760] would he want to talk to you? If that
[02:47:44.160] was my kid, I'd be like, "Let's hang
[02:47:45.760] out." Yeah. Tell me, Al, what the heck
[02:47:48.319] are you doing? Yeah. So, anyway, uh
[02:47:50.479] that's what we used to run into.
[02:47:51.960] close-mindedness just but that shows how
[02:47:54.240] things have changed. Right. Uh uh in
[02:47:57.439] general when we talk about uh the remote
[02:47:59.840] viewing aspects people just say okay uh
[02:48:03.120] I accept that now how can we apply it
[02:48:05.760] and we talk about technologies
[02:48:07.920] associated with uh crash retrievals.
[02:48:11.520] Okay fine but you know what can we learn
[02:48:13.600] from that? How can we apply it? So I
[02:48:15.520] mean it's a different world we're in now
[02:48:16.960] and I'm I'm really excited about it and
[02:48:19.439] uh you know I'm not going to stop. Well
[02:48:21.600] I'm very happy you're out there. I
[02:48:23.120] really really appreciate you and I
[02:48:24.479] really appreciate your time. So, thank
[02:48:25.840] you for coming in here and talking to
[02:48:27.120] us. Certainly welcome. And I appreciate
[02:48:28.720] the fact that you're willing to be
[02:48:30.960] pursuing these frontier areas and
[02:48:33.120] bringing them to a large audience.
[02:48:34.880] That's that's a real gift. I I really
[02:48:36.880] appreciate that. Well, it feels like a
[02:48:38.160] gift for me because it's so fascinating
[02:48:40.080] and I've been obsessed with it my whole
[02:48:41.600] life as I think a lot of people are who
[02:48:44.160] look into it at all and realize there's
[02:48:45.680] some there's something of substance
[02:48:47.040] there. Right. Right. Well, thank you,
[02:48:48.960] Hal. Thank you. It was a real pleasure.
[02:48:51.120] Pleasure for you, too. All right. Bye
[02:48:52.560] everybody.
[02:48:56.560] [Music]
[02:48:56.640] [Applause]
[02:49:01.250] [Music]