Raw capture
Jesse Michels - "Pentagon Whistleblower UNLOADS on Alien Hybrid Breeding Programs" with Matthew Brown (August 29, 2026)
Jesse Michels - "Pentagon Whistleblower UNLOADS on Alien Hybrid Breeding Programs" with Matthew Brown (August 29, 2026)
- Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGtVzBbUvx4
- Channel: Jesse Michels
- Published: 2026-08-29
- Duration: 3:29:26
- Participants: Jesse Michels and Matthew Brown
- Extraction: complete audio downloaded with
yt.shand transcribed through the production FreeTranscribe queue withnvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v3revision7c35754d166cca382ad1e53e68b01e7c575f3a1d, transcript schema 2, 2026-08-29 - Rendering: the production word-timestamp artifact was grouped with the pipeline's timestamped paragraph renderer; 33,240 recognized words
- Validation: beginning, middle, and ending coverage compared against the video's English auto-generated caption track
- Fidelity note: automated recognition and timestamps may contain errors, especially in proper names, acronyms, and overlapping speech. Speaker diarization is experimental and limited to five speakers, so speaker attribution may be wrong and distinct speakers may be merged. The opening 2:32 is an edited preview assembled from later portions of the interview.
- Analytical pages: ../../sources/brown-immaculate-constellation; ../../queries/2026-08-30-how-matthew-brown-learned-legacy-program-oral-tradition
[0:01] The suppression of knowledge, the suppression of science, the active interference in scientific discovery, what you are allowed to think and believe is controlled for a real agenda. Matthew Brown, it's an honor to have you.
[0:16] You have a core story where you bumped into a lot of real information around UFO tracking and reverse engineering programs that were ongoing and multi generational. Can you say what your position was at the Pentagon?
[0:27] I was a policy advisor. I was working the counter WMD emission. Once I was read in, UAP just pop up. In this case, the Immaculate Constellation. You're building an operational picture of the world and having all domain awareness.
[0:41] Do you think they would know vital secrets about UFOs?
[0:51] Bait for shootdowns is in fact cover for using psionics as breeding stock for generations down the line where you have some sort of super psychic child. Whoa! Triangles in particular seemed to be highly advanced.
[1:04] They appeared above Russian naval vessels relatively close. Like it wasn't way up in the sky, it was a football field above them. The Russians had foreknowledge that this triangle would appear there and they were essentially there to meet with it.
[1:16] Seems like there was some reason for that meeting. So you think the meeting was intentional on both sides.
[1:41] What does that mean? Our mind is no longer sovereign. It can be interfaced through remote means. Even our dreams are now subject to technological manipulation. This isn't even classified knowledge.
[1:55] Technical applications from MIT itself relating to dream implantation, including at a distance.
[2:04] Yes. That's freaky. It is. And you're high confident. I'm certain. That's insane.
[2:14] How is this possible? Nothing too additional about that.
[2:32] Matthew Brown, it's an honor to have you. Uh I'm really excited for this, and it's been a long time coming for me because I speak to a lot of people who have uh experiences, obviously, on the inside with UFOs.
[2:46] Either they've gone through files or maybe they saw a thing that they weren't supposed to. You are very unique in my mind because obviously that happened, you know, as kind of you have a core story where you bumped into a lot of real information around UFOs, but you also seem to have extrapolated almost a model of how the nature of reality works or metaphysics works.
[3:07] And I don't think you make any bold claims, you know, insofar as saying that you know exactly how it works, but it seems like you've always been kind of a seeker along those lines, too.
[3:16] So I'm very excited to speak with you both about your core experience and about, you know, some of the conclusions that you've derived from that information you've gleaned. Yeah.
[3:27] Thank you, Jesse. Uh the the honor is mine as well. Uh this is also a long time coming. Uh it's it feels right to be out here and uh starting to open up more and and share about not just those experiences whistleblowing, but kind of uh more of like, well, what it what is life like after?
[3:44] What does it all mean? And how do we adjust our our life's interactions to with this with this information? Yeah. Growing up, did you always know that you wanted to go into government?
[3:56] No. No. Um, you know, I I was pretty much an outcast in most of school. Uh, not really till high school did I just kind of start to come out of my shell and graduated high school with not very good prospects and uh went to community college actually as a film student initially.
[4:15] Uh so no government was never on my mind. Uh, the closest I got was um on a few occasions getting close, like signing up for the military, uh, but primarily because um even at that time, the the sort of wars in the Middle East uh didn't seem uh to me at least to be uh a just war.
[4:38] Uh and coming from a very patriotic family, um, the just war kind of uh thinking really was imbued in me from a young age. And then also, you know, uh kind of uh looking at like, well, what did I want to do in my life?
[4:52] Um not the most athletic person, not the smartest. Uh maybe I maybe I can find somewhere to fit in in the arts. But um life had different plans. Uh about two years into that experience, I was persuaded by uh a history professor to to seek out a career in intelligence from there.
[5:13] Uh yeah, followed that path for that's interesting. Were they sort of recruiting for the Intel world? Or no, that I mean, this is again, this is this is not an Ivy League place.
[5:24] This is just a local community college. Interesting. But you know, you have all sorts of characters at these places, though, that can teach. Um, you know, what we had uh a math teacher who worked on the the space shuttle, specifically the the thermal tiling system for that, did the calculations for that.
[5:40] Wow. Had uh someone who uh was, you know, kind of an ex spook, uh wasn't very clear on that. And then this lady who uh had experience on on Wall Street and seemed to have some some uh exposure to the intelligence wor world herself.
[5:58] So, you know, it's strange who you'll meet in in the most unlikely places. Yeah. And if you're willing to learn, you know, people will open up. And so were you already in DC or did you move to DC for the government?
[6:09] Yeah, I I moved uh I moved to DC for uh for grad school and and to get a job. Um pretty much did both at the same time. Um so I transferred out of community college to a university.
[6:22] Um it's funny. I actually finished that university experience with a study abroad in Russia and moved from Russia to DC. Um kind of strange uh looking back on it.
[6:34] Um and then, you know, from there, I, you know, I I made my first sort of formal bids to join the IC, as it were, and you know, kind of got picked up and entered into that.
[6:46] Were you into UFOs throughout any of this, either growing up or while in community college or graduate school or as an entry level kind of Pentagon employee? I mean no more than just like a I think maybe most people in sort of like the counterculture are like, you know, you it's it's out there.
[7:05] You you everyone knows the show Ancient Aliens, you know, kind of growing up with that. But it was it was never like a specific like, I need to learn everything about this topic and I'm obsessed with it.
[7:14] It was just like, Oh, that's interesting and on to on to the next uh bit of history. Yeah. Can you say what your position was at the Pentagon at the time?
[7:24] I I mean, uh, I like to uh not kind of put the spotlight on those offices, but I was a policy advisor. Uh I was a contractor at the time.
[7:34] Um I was working the counter WMD emission for the office of the Secretary of Defense for uh the Under Secretary of Defense for Policy. And um, you know, down in the org chart is is where I was, but we'll just leave it there.
[7:49] Um for yeah, I still respect the mission, don't want to bring any heat their way. For sure. Were there any moments in that role where you had a wake up call and you were like, the world is way more on the brink on multiple occasions than people on the civil side realize?
[8:08] So probably just through the course of like, I guess, higher education, you know, you in international affairs, you kind of are naturally led into like the real state of things behind or beyond the headlines and seeing, you know, just uh how close we are to to violence and uh lawlessness kind of spilling over and and destroying what we've built.
[8:33] Um so you know, that that definitely got to the next level um being on the inside and learning more details, more uh entirely novel areas of competition. Um but I guess for most of my adult life, it's kind of always felt like, you know, the the drums of war are always kind of banging.
[8:56] What happened uh in 2018 to turn you from a garden variety, you know, person who was, you know, peripherally interested in UFOs to somebody who really believed that the government had kind of this comprehensive entanglement with UFOs, specifically this you know, tracking and reverse engineering programs that were kind of ongoing and multi-generational.
[9:21] Yeah. So I mean that was built over up over time, but I mean uh pretty much once I was read in, uh just to my accesses for the the counter WMD mission, like UAP just pop up.
[9:35] It was it was just there as part of um the threat environment. Um it was unknowns, but it was, you know, it wasn't like there was no awareness of it.
[9:46] It was just something that wasn't talked about because probably, you know, people that are read in don't you're not allowed to talk about it. And if you're not, you know not to ask.
[9:54] And then um that awareness, you know, kind of reached the next level again when uh people know at this point I was exposed to um legacy program material, in this case the Immaculate Constellation program, um, and that kind of discovery of, you know, kind of confirming suspicions like, okay, this is all somewhat real.
[10:14] The government has to be involved in tracking this. And then here's like official documentation of of one aspect of how we are managing the UAP problem kind of brought me to that next level of commitment to finding out what's going on.
[10:30] And set the scene for us. So like where are you or you're you're like at a Pentagon office and you're you're searching you know through documents or what what what exactly are you doing?
[10:42] Uh so less glamorous than that um basically was voluntold to clean up the file system. Um and you know I was I was very much a new employee at the time so I was taking any job I could to just learn more and be useful.
[10:57] And so I yeah, I was doing that on our on our uh classified com computers uh and don't yeah don't need to get into that but um found it in there it was you know labeled nothing that would draw attention to it being a UAP briefing or anything like that and just as part of that process you know open a file see where it is see what it is and where it should go open that file see what it is and like whoa what am what am I looking at here?
[11:28] Um after reading through it once it was pretty clear to me that this was you know a most likely something that they would call spillage like it was uh SAP material or or something like that.
[11:41] SAP is special access program. Yes. And uh it was, you know, improperly filed. And so this is based on that training that I had, um, you know, this is an incident that you need to report.
[11:51] Wasn't quite sure what to do with it with it at the time but a few weeks later conveniently you know we got kind of archival training as an office and you know w learned what the pathway is specifically for dealing with SAP spillage.
[12:04] And so then uh having that kind of information started to report it to leadership and what does the document say? Uh I mean it's it was PowerPoint briefing is what you would call a capabilities brief uh for senior leadership.
[12:19] So it's describing at a high level you know what this uh operational SAP is um very brief history of it and what is it yeah so Immaculate Constellation uh it's a or it was just described to me, at least in my limited exposure as a operational SAP governing the intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance of UAP around the world using task and untassed collection platforms.
[12:46] So that distinction being you know uh intelligence assets that are uh specifically you know looking at an area either for a specific window of time or just durationally for a certain collection target or things that happen to to observe uh in this case UAP um incidentally uh on their mission.
[13:06] So bringing that all together essentially in my mind where that goes is you're building an operational picture of the world um and having all domain awareness. And is this a happening sort of in this really systematic way across all of our image intelligence assets?
[13:25] Obviously you have satellites, you have other optical sensors, you have radar you know on various you know naval ships you know all over the world. Is this happening sort of comprehensively?
[13:37] Is this kind of a niche program that we're we're trying out at low scale or what sort of scale is this operating at? Well at the time of my exposure, you know I've I've learned more since then through other sources who would know.
[13:50] Um but it was focused on imagery and massent so measurement and signals intelligence. Uh measure sorry measurement and signatures intelligence. Uh so the imagery is kind of self explanatory across different spectrums.
[14:04] The massent is it's you're basically looking at things like you know radar returns, electromagnetic returns, uh emissions, uh and kind of going you're kind of in that realm of technical scientific analysis of things that if you look at the end product is just going to be like a a spectral graph, not very uh uh uh sexy for the viewer, but it's hard scientific data gathered through um pretty unique means not just on UAP, but you can do MassInt on all sorts of uh collection targets with all sorts of means.
[14:40] And do you get the sense that this is a a global project funded in the billions or it's like a small kind of pilot project or just from that briefing alone uh definitely got the sense it was global.
[14:52] It was well established um you know it was the mission itself probably you know took advantage of our our our existing collection architecture and it's a mission that is operating kind of as a ride along or uh through existing means.
[15:08] I don't do not doubt that there are dedicated uh collection platforms for the subject um but just sticking to what was on on the page um yeah it was definitely a global established uh well-resourced effort so an op an open source version of this using kind of existing means would be SpaceX for example has its Starlink fleet so thousands of satellites you know for you know internet service provider access you know across the globe but they can double use those you know they have put optical sensors on them and there's a program called Star Shield where they can work with you know the NRO you know on on that sort of double use.
[15:46] And so this would be something similar where we have all these assets that collect image intelligence and other signatures and why not just collate all of that when it comes to UFOs and feed it into some sort of central database and presumably do some AI analysis over it?
[16:03] Yeah, bingo. You got it I would just add that you know it yes space based assets were included but it also included you know terrestrial assets including like you know uh not just aircraft flying in the atmosphere but um uh seaborne kind of uh sensor platforms as well.
[16:21] So um whole spectrum at least what I saw um was was used. Do we have any sense of who ran this program, where it was based? Were there any names on the document that were relevant?
[16:36] Yes. Uh and you know having since learned more have more fidelity on that but um that wasn't in my State Department cleared report uh so I will just say that you know it was the uh you know pointing towards uh Shriver Air Force Base in Colorado as being at least one hub of of this program.
[17:00] And does that make sense to you given was Shriver known for other things that are sort of adjacent to this? Yeah it's it's a major I mean it's a major place for our space operations.
[17:12] I think there's a there is a space command there. I used to know um where a lot of commands were but you know that knowledge is kind of fading.
[17:20] But um major uh space surveillance, uh ISR um and operations hub is in Colorado Springs. And how much is mentioned by the way some of this is public right now.
[17:34] Is is the entire Immaculate is the entire Immaculate constellation document public or is it just part of it with some parts redacted that's public? So my yeah the report I mean that's then that's the name that you know has stuck the Immaculate Constellation Report.
[17:49] It it's a bit of a misnomer. I submitted it to Congress as a field report. It's seven categories of evidence only one of those being the Immaculate Constellation program.
[17:58] Obviously that gets the attention but there's a lot of goodness in there besides that um so what is in there is is the summary of what I saw and reported to Congress um just the facts of of my exposure.
[18:13] Um the broader report you know has more detail um but you know I provided that to Congress uh and a different one for submission for public clearance. So have to stick with what was cleared for public.
[18:27] Got it. So there so there is a difference between what you saw and what the public gets to see. Or between what I wrote yeah. Yeah or but no I'm I mean like the Immaculate Consolation file.
[18:39] Oh yeah the PowerPoint is is I mean I I I never uh brought that anywhere. In fact, you know I uh going through the exposure to it and reporting it, you know, I wasn't I didn't become a whistleblower, right?
[18:51] Um I had years of my career after that. That file, that specific file, that briefing um was mysteriously deleted after being reported. Um but did you see a deeper version?
[19:03] So you saw obviously a different format but did you see you saw more information than what came out in the Michael Schellenberger congressional hearing with Nancy Mace, is that correct?
[19:13] Or is it you saw the same information basically so what what came out in the re what I reported to Congress and in the document is is the summary of about you know twelve to fifteen slides, something like that.
[19:26] So is there more yes, but you basically have the summary. It's not like I got the the full I was never fully read in in into Immaculate constellation. I'm sure there's things I got wrong because I was only with one limited exposure or things that are incomplete but you know the fact of the program has been established beyond a reasonable doubt both through my exposure and then you know other sources that have developed since then.
[19:54] You know, some clarifications have been arrived at which is you know I saw it as a DOD program. That's how it was presented in the briefing, but you know came to learn later that it's you know DOD might be implementing it, but it's actually ran out of and owned by the National Security Council out of the White House.
[20:13] So you know there there's clearly more to the story. But you know, I I I'm only basing it off of a a limited exposure. Aaron Ross Powell What are the most striking things that the Immaculate Constellation documents say about UFOs, UAP, nonhuman intelligence?
[20:33] I mean I think well number one, it didn't really characterize what these things were, right? I'm pretty sure that's a separate briefing. Um but it just established the fact of these things operating around the world, uh including over the continental United States, over adversary countries, third party countries, um both around sensitive uh facilities connected with WMD and then in in in in the global commons, so like over the oceans.
[21:03] Um and does it say that they show up around weapons mass destruction and nuclear uh in in that document, no, it doesn't it does not uh say that they specifically do that, but that is uh you know a well established fact just from um other reporting uh in the government and some of that included in in the document that I submitted to Congress um and in the public version.
[21:32] Uh and there's there's other people besides me that have made that link, right? I think Robert Sallas is probably the most famous there's a I saw you had a copy of one of the books like UFO and Nukes.
[21:42] Yeah. It's it's established beyond a reasonable doubt that uh not just nuclear uh facilities draw their attention, um, but WMD uh in general. Yeah. Yeah. And so okay, so it talks about these sort of global reports of UFOs.
[21:59] It also talks about different geometries, isn't that right? And kind of tax on taxonomy of so my report does the Immaculate Constellation briefing included examples of different types. Again, this is a briefing for senior leadership so it's kind of high level in the document, you know, it it showed uh basically four case studies, if you want to call that of collection events on these that were relatively recent to the time of that report's drafting or sorry, that briefing's drafting which was around 2018.
[22:32] So you know most interesting one to me was uh it was a big triangle um over over Russian naval vessels. Uh and indeed that was kind of like the first example led or presented in the briefing.
[22:45] Um also was included with things like orbs. Um and it was interesting because one of the events that was listed there was an event I was already familiar with outside of that briefing itself, um kind of demonstrating that you know these events might occur outside of the Immaculate Constellation tasking, but they are brought into sort of the mission um as as part of its, you know, role and capabilities.
[23:14] What happened with the triangle? So I mean it as described in there, it it appeared over so sorry, uh to set the scene, um we had a a surveillance asset uh in the ocean off the uh I believe it was Kamchatka, but the the eastern seaboard of Russia in the in the Pacific.
[23:35] And there was a grouping of Russian naval vessels, one of them being an unknown Russian uh intelligence vessel um at night and then the triangle basically appears um you know whether you say a decloaked materialized phased in who knows the point is that it just it it appeared seemingly out of nowhere.
[23:58] Um did not describe you know what the mean what the nature of that appearance was. But it appeared above them um relatively relatively close. Like it wasn't way up in the sky it was maybe a a football field or two above them um and just hovered there.
[24:15] Uh kind of described as like you know kind of tilted to the side um and there was no reaction from the Russian vessels. Anyone could have seen that thing.
[24:28] Uh we did as well and uh you know we kind of just hung that hung out there uh for a duration of time the the briefing didn't describe how long uh and then disappeared uh kind of just as suddenly as it appeared and uh that's really the the summary of that event.
[24:48] Uh you know it described the event, it described the sorry the briefing described the event, described um you know who the who which vessels were there, you know, it had names of them and stuff um and uh the fact that they had been there in that area for a period of time before the vess before the triangle appeared and their analysis was that they had that the Russians had foreknowledge that this triangle would appear there and then they were essentially there to meet with it or waiting or waiting for it to appear.
[25:19] How did the Russians have foreknowledge that the triangle would appear there? Not explained uh I guess maybe they had their their own version of Immaculate Constellation or maybe they were messing with some nuclear stuff or because they're baiting techniques right to like cause these UFOs to show up yeah so I mean to to verge into my own speculation and not what was on the page um I've come to believe that that was some sort of pre arranged meeting um for whatever purpose I don't know um but the triangles in particular seem to be highly advanced.
[25:56] Uh I think when we talk about baiting operations, you're baiting more of sort of automatic sensors that might be in our atmosphere or in our oceans, right? Things like that, yeah, that are you know kind of a cause and effect response versus something like the triangle by many accounts uh is is is under intelligent control.
[26:19] Uh highly advanced seems like it would be unlikely that it would not just uh be baited by uh Russian naval vessels in the ocean, but um you know appear in such close proximity uh to them for for fun.
[26:35] It seems like there was some some reason for that meeting. So you think the meeting was intentional on both sides? Aaron Ross Powell At this point, yeah I think um and when we say meeting the things materializing and then flying off what is that yeah what what do the Russians get out of you know even trying to sort of meet with you know that's that's not like you're like sitting down yeah maybe over at a a table and uh you know conversing and talking about you know the you're not negotiating anything, right?
[27:07] Or or do you think something is transferred when the probably some sort of transfer yeah less a diplomatic meeting where people get off a ship and have dinner. Um more of I it seems like again speculation that that was some sort of transfer event maybe it was uh data right being transferred in a secure way, you know, uh line of sight kind of link so that there's low probability of intercept um or something else.
[27:31] Um but that wow I don't know. Yeah that would imply I mean if there was some sort of data transfer that then that the Russians were aware of and they're sort of like you know predetermining this meeting, that would imply a level of coordination with the beings that, you know, would be remarkable.
[27:49] It would be like at the highest levels of our government and their government we're sort of meeting you know when we want to with aliens or with not aliens as a you know a conclusion but with something anomalous.
[28:01] Some intelligence. Yeah. I I mean I st I can't say off of just that document alone that that was a non human craft. It certainly lines up with descriptions of of nonhuman craft but at this point in time it's possible that you know the United States and others have some sort of derivative technology that looks like the big black triangle, right?
[28:23] There's that famous NID study done in the I think late nineties or early 2000s where they correlate triangle sidings to naval bases in the United States. So either what's what's going on is you know there's some sort of recurring exchange or and use of our facilities by whatever is piloting these big black triangles um or we have some sort of derivative technology ourselves that operate from these bases.
[28:48] Jeff Nusatelli also described, you know, a big black triangle coming out of the Pacific Ocean, flying into Vandenberg, basically hovering over the runway at Vandenberg Air Force Base and then disappearing.
[28:59] I talked to five shaken witnesses who described a massive triangular craft larger than a football field that hovered silently for about forty five seconds over their entry control point before shooting away at impossible speed.
[29:17] Exactly at approximately zero one thirty I saw an approximately one hundred foot equilateral triangle take off from near the NASA hangar on the base.
[29:35] Yeah and then it flies off. Yeah. I'd be pretty freaked out if that happened to me. Yeah so you know there's these are all examples of the United States having some sort of relationship with these with these craft whether it's our own gifted tech or truly a third party can only speculate but you know I have some good guesses.
[29:59] What's your what's your best guess? That there is an exchange, uh some sort of arrangement with whatever is piloting the the black triangles that are not ours. I believe we do have a derivative version at this point.
[30:14] Uh huh um but that is again derived from the real thing. And the real thing, um, there is some sort of ongoing contact and communication um clearly not just the United States but other governments as well.
[30:28] That's my opinion. And when it flies in the vicinity there's like some sort of download that occurs. There's like a transmission of information. That's what some people have reported.
[30:39] Again, I did not come across official information well I did not come across information on that in the Imaca constellation briefing. Okay. Um read between the lines there. Wha any other case studies that really struck you outside of this Russian naval vessel incident?
[31:00] So I mean in in the Immaculate Constellation briefing that was the the highlight for me. The other ones were examples of of orbs or irregularslash organic things and some of those were again incidents I was familiar with that had would be incidental collections because I'd seen them on other systems.
[31:24] But they clearly were fed up into immaculate constellations. So I was already familiar with them is what I'm getting at. It was certainly notable to see them in the briefing and see the analysis done with them, but the triangle was entirely novel and new.
[31:37] And um as I think I point out like there seems to be some sort of control like information control system or security classification internal related directly to the triangles because they appear very rarely in the sort of regular reporting stream.
[31:52] They're definitely, in my opinion, plucked out and sequestered. Can I read your report? Because I think it'd be good for people to just Okay. Immaculate Constellation's primary mission is collecting imagery intelligence on unidentified aerial phenomenon and ARV slash R V.
[32:09] So ARV is that alien reproduction vehicle or is that advanced research vehicle or what it what is ARV? Yeah so there is what was presented in the Immaculate Constellation briefing and my report to Congress was just reporting what I saw not my opinions on it.
[32:30] So in the briefing ARV and R V were the terms were the abbreviations used throughout it was uh expanded right on on only one occasion um and you know to the best of my recollection it was expanded as alien reproduction vehicle now my personal opinion is that that term as well as the sort of upfront context of oh MCON was created as a result of Lou Elizondo exposing ATIP were two instances of information uh kind of poison pills, as you were, or signature what am I trying to say here?
[33:14] Basically a counterintelligence tool to see that uh okay we described these things using these words and gave this kind of program history during these years. So if there is a leak uh and we see in the leak that these terms are used or this program history is used, then we can start narrowing in on you know who leaked it because you know counterintelligence internal security keeps that file, right?
[33:40] My personal opinion is that if you're gonna do FOIA searches, you're gonna have better luck searching for the term advanced reconnaissance vehicle. You'll find some things from TRW uh in particular uh not the army ground platform that comes up from the cursory search.
[33:59] Um you know the the term I know I've since learned uh has a bit of a reputation uh both from the I think Mark McClan McCannlish McCannlish story, which I only became familiar with after publishing this because everyone jumped on it, uh and the sort of Steven Greer expansions on that dialogue.
[34:22] Um to me it always seemed a bit uh too on the nose to call something an alien reproduction vehicle in a briefing like that. But again I just reported to Congress what I saw.
[34:34] So yeah take it as you will I would not put too much stock in that term being the full truth of what those are. But the acronym itself ARV or RV I believe will also yield good r returns to people that use those terms to search.
[34:53] Yep. We're in the hall of mirrors this is intelligence this is counterintelligence um this is program protection um you know I wish there was a simple answer so that I didn't have to qualify things and could give people easy digestible answers, but that's not where we're where we're at.
[35:11] Do you think that there's a chance that the spillage and that you kind of bumping into this document, Immaculate Constellation, was actually by design and that it was some sort of program protection device and that some Intel group is systematically tagging advanced research vehicles or reconnaissance vehicles with the sort of alien insignia in order to be able to sort of track the the flow of, you know, who talks about these sorts of things.
[35:40] Personally no if you're going to have bait you would make it much more appealing. The document was a working document. It was clearly something that was in the middle of being drafted like there were placeholder slides right where a control officer would insert SAP material.
[35:55] There were no appropriate portion markings and you I was able to see looking at the file history like it had been edited recently by certain people and it wasn't labeled in a way that would draw attention nor was it stored in a location that people would want to search for it.
[36:10] It was just do you know who wrote it? Uh I know at least one person who was editing it. Uh huh you know you can only learn so much from the file's metadata especially when you're working in a bureaucracy.
[36:24] Yeah yeah um yeah anybody's name you can say or uh no I I you know I I gave that information to Congress um yeah okay and you said uh Immaculate Constellation is an unacknowledged uh special access program so a USAP it was established following the public disclosure of the ATIP SAP programs run by Luis Elizondo in twenty seventeen so did Lou Elizondo have something to do with Immaculate Constellation he was you know before Congress uh uh a couple of years ago and you know actually next to Michael Schellenberger who was basically kind of a surrogate for you like taught talking about Immaculate Constellation he you know handed the docs to Nancy Mace along with Jeremy Corbell very important to mention that um but uh when asked about Immaculate Constellation Lou Elizondo said um Mr.
[37:18] Elizondo were you read into the Immaculate Constellation program I would not be authorized to confirm nor deny the existence of any ongoing or past program especially as it relates to a special access program either by name or a trigraph.
[37:34] Aaron Ross Powell The modern hermeneutic on that is you were read in and you know all about it. You know so the Glomar response kind of lost its utility.
[37:41] Everyone knows you're saying yes at this point when we a counterintel agent would know that that's going to be interpreted as like you know people are going to know that you were you were all over it.
[37:51] Um so I mean yes that you know I'm paraphrasing I I never brought the briefing itself to Congress nor could I. It was years since that exposure and deleted and I never uh you know did anything like that.
[38:08] Um but that is how it was described. I don't think that's accurate. I think that is an intentional, you know, half truth uh included in the document to both kind of give a plausible history to the program uh as well as a signature for again people that would spill it or sorry leak it later on if anybody leaked it later on counterintelligence could say okay we know you know these kind of signifiers were used so we know who was exposed to this material and can start searching.
[38:39] I I've again through other sources learned that you know Mac at Constellation is a relatively old program. It's an old mission I should say uh run out of the NSC.
[38:49] Uh it was not created in response to Lou going forward in twenty seventeen and and revealing the ATIP code word um or pseudonym. So you know again we're in the hall of mirrors.
[39:04] So you think that was the the the document uh was not reflecting the reality which is that this had been a long standing program running up to the National Security Council and this was sort of being claimed by OSEP, ATIP and these sort of modern, much smaller you know uh nominal kind of UFO efforts.
[39:24] Is that right? Um seems to be the case. Yeah. I'd also say that since you're briefing senior leaders, you know, you you're trying to just establish a high level view of this and also the people who own these programs get to have a voice on what what information is briefed outwards.
[39:43] So that might be going on as well like we're only going to give them the bare minimum level of detail and hey we'll stick with current events. This is in 2018 uh black auras and black budgets or whatever the article was just a year prior.
[39:58] So it it it gives a plausible sort of uh foundation to any senior leader who has not previously previously read into any other UAP programs to kind of latch onto and say, okay, this is what it is.
[40:12] I don't have to think too much further. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because OSAP was a $22 million program. So I don't think of that as even being able to house some like 360 surveillance global ubiquitous, you know, yeah, Intel collecting network on UFOs.
[40:28] Yeah. And and I would hazard to guess that because Immaculate Constellation is an operational SAP, you know, it doesn't actually own any of the capabilities. It owns the mission and the tasking, um, the actual assets themselves, the research and development for them, the analysis is all going to be pushed down to the actual like functional components and most likely are in their own stovepipes, saps and caps, uh, you know, compartmentation go all the way down.
[40:58] Yeah, got it. Okay. And some of the other things that your report mentions are just fascinating. Centcom, what is Centcom for the Central Command. Central Command discusses cuboid formation of metallic orbs on USG networks, US government networks.
[41:15] There exists daytime FMV, what's FMV? Full motion video. Yes. And Fleer forward looking infrared footage of a formation of 12 metallic orbs skimming the ocean surface at high speed before dispersing in multiple directions.
[41:28] That's pretty wild. Yep. Indo Paycom what's Indo Paycom? Uh Indian Ocean Pacific Command. Indian Ocean Pacific Command actually but yeah large disk using clouds as concealment uh on USG networks there exists OPER information, OPIR Overhead persistent infrared of a large saucer shaped UAP emerging within a dense cloud formation.
[41:54] Northcom uh is that North Northern Command North Command, yep USA jellyfish UAP crosses US Mexico border Southcom, Southern Command Tic Tac detected by space asset in proximity of vessel.
[42:09] And you know that obviously makes you think of Nimitz in 2004 and other sort of tic tac reports in and around the water, but this is much more recent.
[42:17] The tic tac maneuvers at an altitude at or near local cloud cover and correlated electromagnetic signatures were collected by Mascent. So that's the collection capability we're talking about before what does Mascent stand for again?
[42:31] Measurement and signature Measurement and signatures intelligence. And measurement and signatures intelligence. In the available footage the Tic Tac UAP transits rapidly through the field of regard as it transits the ocean wild.
[42:44] So that's this transmedium Tic Tac being discussed. Yep in proximity to a naval vessel so wild again um you know either it is interested in these military vessels I I have to revisit my report so I don't speak out of school um but uh quite interesting that you have that kind of occurrence in a Mac it constellation with the triangle and then in this which is separate reporting streams separate exposure or uh not exposures but separate intelligence you have similar kind of behavior being done um by a very advanced uh vehicle wild um and you also have kind of a taxonomy so you have um you know specific geometries that you list and general capabilities or attributes kind of associated with those you know forms and shapes and stuff.
[43:42] So just one example table two is a disk slash saucer. You go over orbs before that, you know triangles after that but the disc slash saucer uh you know size generally range from a few meters to over 20 meters in diameter.
[43:56] Speed exhibits capabilities for both hovering and high speed flight often making sudden sprints radar detection varies visual settings are more common uh they are often metallic silver or gray is common.
[44:08] So that's just fascinating. So do you think this is what is being sort of outputted by all of these you know kind of collection so you do all these collections you know as part of this program and then you funnel that into some sort of AI analytical overlay or something.
[44:25] Are these attributes what comes out on the other end? Is that sort of your understanding that you're reporting those sections we are we are no longer talking about the Immaculate Constellation briefing.
[44:35] Those are separate intelligence uh sources okay and those those tables you're looking at um are are self generated uh based on my exposure to many things but they're aggregated I would hazard to guess though that they match pretty closely to what's on the inside and independent analysis that's been done on the inside uh because the simple fact of you know we're all looking at the same data, you're gonna come to similar conclusions um if you're operating in good faith.
[45:03] Yeah. So kind of similar to Dylan Borland who I just sat on a show, you have like a core experience in his case it was seeing a craft. In your case it was bumping into this document and then you kind of vigilante after the fact are like this is insane.
[45:15] I need to verify and look more into this and uh look at corroboration for this outside of just this core single document. Is that right? Well I mean a little bit I mean again I was exposed to UAP intelligence before coming across the MACAT constellation briefing and after uh because I was in the WMD mission space these were incidents that were reported um in our intelligence stream very often.
[45:41] Got it. Um so it was you know it wasn't like vigilantism it was this is part of my mission. Um so you you knew of reports before seeing the Immaculate Constellation documents correct of UFOs showing up at nuclear sites and that wow.
[45:58] Across all sources of intelligence. So whether it's you know imagery intelligence and all those different forms of it to signals, to um humant, to massent, um, to SIGINT or I said signals, yeah.
[46:13] So even before IMCON that exposure um yeah definitely the the fact of UAP was rapidly established in my mind and the just through the virtue of my job. Have you seen video that's stepwise clearer or sharper than what we've seen from kind of you know naval video, you know, forward looking infrared coming out in 2017 as you guys know I'm often doing shows that run three or four, sometimes even five hours.
[46:42] People see the finished conversation but the real work is what comes before it weeks of reading and research and then have to actually sustain that level of attention and detail in the room, live for hours.
[46:54] Sometimes I'm kind of groggy and I've flown halfway around the world for a single sit down. Obviously I think that everything I cover needs to be handled really thoroughly and with the utmost respect, I have to show up at my best for my guests.
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[48:44] Yes. Wow that's remarkable is that like a that's kind of a heavy thing to sit with I imagine the fact that you know well I I never saw any beings on the inside so I always uh not always I'm you know I can guess why because you know that there's probably a control system for those um all of the stuff coming out from these Department of War, you know, data drops, data dumps are are just very fuzzy.
[49:10] You know? Yeah and you so you've seen things that are way sharper than what's come out there. I I would Yeah definitely um also I mean there's the difference of seeing those kind of Department of War videos uh on the inside in in near real time, right?
[49:26] And the kind of level of confidence you have in what you're seeing being truly anomalous uh and uh very relevant in your day-to-day mission versus seeing it uh in its censored form and its downgraded form on the outside.
[49:40] So you know it's a I've I've definitely been exposed to a mix of quality both in terms of the visual fidelity and in the resolution of what this object is.
[49:50] Um but I mean you can't replicate the exposure sorry the experience of of seeing stuff on the inside and it's like this happened yesterday. Right. Uh that definitely has an emotional impact and, you know, from a level of certainty like, you know, I person you you personally feel very confident that you know which what was collected on really occurred um and is important.
[50:19] After seeing the Immaculate Constellation docs, does your desire to know ramp up? So obviously you you have the sort of like smattering of reports that come in due to just incidentally, you know, you being involved in counter WMD stuff.
[50:35] These things show up around sensitive nuclear assets. So obviously you're going to run into UFOs through you know that job. But then you see the stock and you realize that we've kind of been comprehensively sequestering, quarantining and you know really gathering intelligence on UFOs globally, do you then want to kind of like do a deeper dive?
[50:59] Oh definitely and you know on a more personal level it was okay, I'm early in my career. How can I get into the office that does this? How can I how can I get a job working the UAP mission set?
[51:15] That that was the the personal motivation there was less um you know go, you know, go find all the details kind of secret score like it was more of okay, this is very real.
[51:26] There's clearly a lot going on that the US government isn't telling its own employees how do I get a job working this issue. Did you try to get a job on the UFO legacy program?
[51:37] Uh I'll just say that I figured out a few places where both my skill set would apply and the mission would overlap and um you know I was on that on that direction.
[51:53] Yeah. Hmm and what what would you describe your core skill set as man uh you know uh I was never formerly you know uh an analyst I was never an operations officer I was kind of living in a nebulous world of of of strategy, right?
[52:12] Okay. So my my uh skill set as it were fell under net assessment and strategic development. So you can the first term is kind of a term of art in the in the military or the strategic culture of the United States, uh net assessment being like you're basically weighing up blue force capabilities, red force capabilities, uh intelligence around all that, both you know, your domestic picture and your adversary's domestic picture.
[52:42] And not necessarily coming to a conclusion about like you know how many tanks do they have this year and how many they're gonna have next year. It's okay, what does the United States need to do to achieve its interests given this net assessment of the state of play in the world and using that to kind of drive our strategy in very long term increments 10, 20, 30, uh 50 years.
[53:05] And it the grandfather of that was a man called uh Andrew Marshall, the Yoda of the Pentagon. There's a whole office to it called the Office of Net Assessment.
[53:14] Very interesting place. Yeah they do kind of like you said kind of long term strategic planning which seems really like you know especially vis-a-vis China where you have leadership that's entrenched for many years that's not being cycled in and out you know it feels like a real deficit when it comes to you know US planning.
[53:34] Yeah I think I think we keep those cards close to our chests uh rightly so but maybe too close because if not everybody's r uh you know playing to the same music you get a lot of uh wasted effort and I think unfortunately that that has occurred both as a consequence of you know uh stovepiping and then excessive classification, compartmentation, whatever you want to call it what happens between you potentially wanting to work the UFO legacy program and you saying you know being kind of exasperated and wanting to blow the whistle instead I mean it was really you know current events.
[54:11] Um I was just minding my own business really uh continuing my career um and because it was in WMD that meant more and more exposure to UAP and more and more exposure to like the the communities inside the the IC and the Pentagon that were tracking this and discussing it.
[54:31] And it really came down to um I I guess you know learning from people in that community that uh Congress needed whistleblowers, that this was not being uh managed correctly that it was being withheld from both the executive leadership and the congressional leadership that you know there is no oversight.
[54:53] This program has kind of gone rogue.
[54:57] You know, I didn't I've kind of developed in my view of of of what uh that situation is uh but at the time it it is kind of presented as uh you know this was this is a consequence of kind of Cold War secrecy.
[55:14] It's it's been out, you know, on its own for too long now we're trying to reel it back in without exposing capabilities um you know help us do that.
[55:25] Then there was another uh line of communication that was saying like people's lives are at risk, both because of the security measures being taken to keep the secret, the kind of corruption or uh unprofessionalism that has seeped into the program just by virtue of being so in the black, so unilaterally managed and that there's you know potential like external threats that are going to put these people's lives at risk.
[55:51] So that combination of no executive or and no executive and congressional oversight at least to the civilian leadership plus people's lives being in danger is what pushed me to become a whistleblower.
[56:06] And in fact I was asked to be a whistleblower. Even after hearing that information I felt like I didn't have anything that would be sufficiently useful to to Congress.
[56:16] But were you asked by Congress or who? Someone else who was who was um you know interfacing with Congress and then you know kind of did a delicate dance of like here's here's some code words.
[56:32] Um yeah you should go. It doesn't matter how little you know Congress really does need it. And uh followed that. And before I think it's really important to note that before going to Congress, before you know trying to potentially work legacy and then becoming a whistleblower, you also uh reported the this quote unquote spillage is I guess the term where you know you bumped into this classified special access program doc and you realized you shouldn't have and you also realized it shouldn't just be sitting there on the server.
[57:04] And so you reported it to the proper authorities. Yeah that was years before becoming a whistleblower. Um I I yeah I'll just briefly tell the story um you know once I found out you know the proper process and kind of sat with it for a while like, well I saw this thing.
[57:21] I gotta tell someone at this point. Yeah so I I went to my first like sort of direct report showed it to him he basically recommended to me uh delete that and pretend you never saw it and then he just left the room and uh I was like, well damn uh old head's telling me that uh do I follow his advice or do I keep trying to do like what the procedures say um so I followed the procedure went to the next level of authority that person said okay you need to go to SAPCO uh special access program coordinating office um and report this so then I went there that was the third kind of reporting chain and that's where I was told like okay you don't need to sign anything um go away um very mysterious kind of uh interaction and then the file was deleted and I just went on with my life there was no outcome from that I just uh you know privately came to the conclusion like well that was that was real um I'm going to follow their advice and not talk about that anymore and continue in my career.
[58:31] Were you able to independently verify that Immaculate Constellation was a real program outside of just this one kind of PowerPoint you saw? Okay. Yes. And this is through just other personnel who would know or yeah people that had placement in access as they say.
[58:48] So you know I I And you take their word for it? Are th were they definitely not in coordination with one another? Were they in disparate sort of roles where they would have the access and knowledge?
[59:00] Yeah yeah I mean to to the best of my ability to determine for sure. And if it was just rumor, you know that's probably not enough but having seen the source material itself and gone through the anomalous sort of reporting process and having the broader context of exposure to UAP, no doubt in my mind it's a real mission, real program.
[59:21] Does any of this have to do with the National Reconnaissance office and their sentient program? Uh I mean to a degree you know you could think of that as like an enabler to the mission.
[59:33] The sentient program would have come online to my understanding after like you know Imaca constellation had already existed but would have been integrated with it as you know leveraging artificial intelligence to to do sort of the sourcing and basically live detection and censorship or uh compartmentalization rather of of these collection events to both maintain sort of the internal security control and then but more importantly to to get uh eyes on to uh in an event you know rapidly to collect more instead of you know having to wait days or months again what about there's a program at the National Geospatial Agency called Marsupial?
[1:00:14] Is that related at all? No comment. Okay, no comment. Um and uh anything dealing with like um CIA's Office of Global Access or Rapid Response or anything like that?
[1:00:26] So I never was exposed to you know their relevance to the UAP mission, but I find all the public reporting that's been done on it uh very plausible. Yeah.
[1:00:36] And so obviously these things are being spotted globally. For me, I'm like 100% on that on the you know these anomalous objects obviously showing up in aerial spaces in really sensitive military facilities, nuclear sites, national labs.
[1:00:52] That feels like almost like you you gotta really be you know dogmatically skeptical uh a bad actor or like not very smart to like accept that that's true. And so Immaculate Constellation corroborating that we're measuring that is very interesting and you know I'd say remarkable unto itself.
[1:01:13] But to me there's always this cutoff between that and like this multi generational, you know, decades long crash retrieval and reverse engineering program. Are you also confident in that?
[1:01:25] And are you as confident that we have, you know, the tracking over here of just these aerial objects as we are like nuts and bolts material that we're working on and we have NHI derived tech?
[1:01:38] Hmm I I mean yes uh no direct exposure to the reverse engineering program, at least from my time on the inside. You know, you meet people afterwards and make of it what you will I think there's enough there there though to uh to say that something like that is is ongoing and is ran out of our national labs for sure uh and our defense contractors most probably um that there has been successes.
[1:02:13] The crash retrieval program, I I mean I kind of wonder if that's a bit of a misnomer intentionally so like how often are these things just crashing or if they are crashing, is it so much an accident as it is like you know is it more of a r result of some sort of conflict between either between these things or have we developed some capability to bring at least a subset of these type of vehicles you know down?
[1:02:43] Um and also you know, do you think we there's an archaeological aspect to that as well, which I think is probably more interesting um because then you're getting into well that's kind of proof just through geological processes that these technologies have been here for a long time, right?
[1:02:59] If you're digging something up under, you know, tens of meters of of sediment deposited on the ocean floor, like that takes time to build up. And do you are do you think there is an archaeological component where we're finding these things and I do.
[1:03:11] Really I mean that that's something that I've since come to uh both believe and kind of learn more about um yeah I think that's there's that's definitely uh one of the sort of do you think that secret aspects to this yeah do you think that's more I mean Bob Lazar said that uh you know the craft that he worked on was from an archaeological dig on the ocean floor and it came from the Navy.
[1:03:38] And so interesting yeah yeah do you think that that's more common maybe than actual crashes? I would I mean just my personal opinion yes um I think shooting down these things, especially if they the category of these anomalous craft that are non human in origin is is probably uh dangerous to do.
[1:04:04] Um but I am not briefed into you know the nature of our relationship with these beings and what level of cooperation or competition we have with them. So I won't make a a value statement on that like some will where it's like, oh we're shooting down our Space Brothers.
[1:04:21] I don't I I wish it was true, but I don't think we are in such a uh you know magnanimous uh position with these beings. Aaron Ross Powell Are you high conviction in anything when it comes to UFOs or anomalous nonhuman intelligence that is very kind of contrarian and goes against kind of the prevailing you know understanding of how these things work, you know, either from a you know intent perspective or crash retrieval reverse engineering perspective or like what the government's relationship is to these things.
[1:04:55] I don't know um I'm you know I'm not from u Fology don't have the background or the sort of you know the lines drawn in the sand like I'm in the camp where you know there's no such thing as a threat.
[1:05:11] That's all government propaganda to the oh it's all a threat. Um so maybe that's contrarian um I I think it's a mix. I think just like humanity um itself, you know, there's violent actors and there's good people that are violent and under duress too or for good reasons.
[1:05:29] Yeah, I think I think uh like I said, uh reality is is is more complicated than we're allowed to believe and um saying it's all this, it's all that is is is reductive and unhelpful.
[1:05:45] When you were speaking with George Knapp and Jeremy Corbell, you said these things might be made for purpose as if they're like made to spec for specific functions. Yeah.
[1:05:57] What makes you believe that's looking specifically at sort of the you could almost consider them like tactical vehicles, things that are s on the smaller side, uh especially things that are like irregularly shaped where it looks like they have either things that are like you know custom configured antennas or like manipulator kind of objects or or parts of it that seem like it's for storage of physical things.
[1:06:40] So much of this is like very simple geometry. So when you have things that have more complex or you know asymmetric geometry it my mind goes towards well it's f fulfilling some sort of specific role, task, purpose.
[1:06:53] And then you know you kind of see uh them interacting in areas where hey maybe they're picking up stuff. Um you kind of it kind of lends weight towards towards that in my mind.
[1:07:04] What would they be picking up? Uh you know they seem to be interested in certain mineral deposits. So might be you know some level of extraction or sampling there.
[1:07:14] Um and uh I mean it's uncomfortable but I think there's some sort of uh s extraction and sampling of uh Earth's flora and fauna possibly human beings yes and probably not limited specific subset of human beings?
[1:07:34] I don't I so when we're talking about uh you know what the crafter use were I don't know if there's any relation to to that uh you know I can have separate speculation that you know there maybe there's certain categories of of humanity um that are are more interesting to them but that's not uh from inside information that's kind of my own thoughts.
[1:08:02] Um do you think that we've made agreements with the beings? Aaron Ross Powell Yes for several reasons I mean the the most defensible is just from an analysis of the situation you know I come from international affairs, uh diplomatic history, you know, international competition and so looking at behavior to kind of uh divine intent, you know, capabilities only get you so far in there in that realm.
[1:08:34] The behavior, especially between human um human players involved doesn't is it does not seem explainable unless there is some sort of agreement both between nations and imposed or arrived at between them and the third parties specifically related to like the secrecy measures, the lack of any sort of public or official disclosure, um the the military arrangements we've had in in formal treaties like there's that nineteen seventy something outer space treaty where we agree to like notify each other uh if we detect UFOs.
[1:09:12] Um that's that's act I mean that's straight up an example of an agreement. Yeah it's open source anybody can look it up I think it's 1971 SALT talks between uh you know the US and uh Soviets and they're saying we have to coordinate around, you know, UFOs showing up in sensitive airspace.
[1:09:28] So yeah. Yeah. And that there's some you know bits and information kind of picked up from the inside and since then from people that are positioned to know that that points towards yeah there is at least some basic sort of set of agreements between the United States and some sort of third party and most likely other countries have some sort of similar or alliance blocks have some sort of similar arrangement.
[1:09:56] What do you think we're conceding and what do you think we're gaining through these agreements?
[1:10:02] I don't know if we gain that much. I don't think I don't think any level of altruism has been displayed. I think it's more uh So we're being submitted essentially we have to make disagree.
[1:10:15] We have to make disagreements. Yeah. Or maybe you know also just agreements doesn't always have to be an exchange. It could be being brought into awareness that, you know, these are the rules.
[1:10:28] Um you now humans, because of your capabilities and population spread are being, you know uh rising to our level of attention. This is kind of how Earth operates at a certain level.
[1:10:42] So you need to do these things to stay in sort of the established uh precedence of of life on Earth. Um yeah interesting. And and uh what do you think they're getting out of it?
[1:10:57] Because if they're you know 360 dominating us, why even you know engage in some sort of explicit di diplomacy versus just like, you know, take what you want and you know come and go as you please.
[1:11:10] Yeah. Uh so to set the foundation for that, I mean starting to be more open. Um I have learned that it is the oral tradition in the legacy program itself that agreements were struck between the United States and a third party uh in possession of this technology and that that agreement in broad terms was has two kind of uh arrangements.
[1:11:37] One was that there's certain areas that the United States uh within its borders, you know, needs to stay away from that that is essentially uh someone else's territory. So no developments there, no military operations there, no commercial or human activity.
[1:11:53] Um that's one area and of the agreement. And then the other side is some sort of access and access to and communication with humans of their choice. And that that is the nature of at least one very old agreement um sometime in the Truman and Eisenhower era that was arrived at.
[1:12:16] I'm sure that there are things in the lore that give more detail. I can't speak to the validity of of those things, but I'm just sharing that now that that is uh in in the legacy program itself um at least a a line of um not thought but narrative.
[1:12:37] Yeah I mean in the lore you have this idea of this Griata treaty where Eisenhower, you know, under the guise of going to the dentist in Palm Springs in 1954 instead jets off to Edwards Air Force base where some diplomatic relations are engaged with with with these beings.
[1:12:56] And uh what the sort of common story is is that the beings are given access to humans for medical experimentation to American citizens. But that's interesting. So you you think there's an oral tradition where you know in the legacy program this is undocumented but it's sort of well known among people who work on you know UFO, you know, crash retrievals, reverse engineering or tracking that some sort of treaties were engaged in the agreements is the term that you know was told to me.
[1:13:29] And that might be because treaties have to be you know ratified by Congress. But a business agreement does not so I don't know anything about this GREATA treaty. Um when there's that kind of level of detail I'm kind of skeptical uh especially given the the amount of time that has passed if you're running if all this is real like I really believe it is and have direct knowledge that aspects of it are concretely real um then we would be running, you know we our security apparatus would inject disinformation when there's leaks or to preempt you know any sort of uh revelation that would be you know counter to our interests.
[1:14:13] So I think there's a lot of um half truths or complete fabrications out there that have kind of become unquestioned parts of the UFO community or UFO narrative. Yeah.
[1:14:25] Um but I think there's a core truth there and it it makes to me it makes sense you know that there has to be some sort of agreement between us and other nations regarding this topic and us and a third party otherwise our strategic behavior does not make sense.
[1:14:52] Yes um and you know developed sources since then and been approached by people that you know are I think where there is roughly a split between those who want reform and some degree of this to come out and those who don't very very much do not want any of it to come out.
[1:15:11] And and Dylan Borland kind of hinted at this or actually pretty direct about it with with you where he said if there was a a choice a decision made to stop briefing new people in the legacy program on the history of the program so that you know you're kind of just you know getting into the next generation of people that have no background in into the the ground truth of you know where this came from, what has happened and why decisions were made.
[1:15:37] You're starting fresh and you don't you get to avoid the the sort of complications of the past probably except for very small circle of senior leadership who would who would have the need to know.
[1:15:48] So that is is kind of pointing towards well why is it an oral tradition? It's because you have a bifurcation now of people who were you know briefed into legacy before that decision was made to stop telling people the history or some version of the history of the program and those who have since come into the program did not receive that history but people talk and people have questions, especially with something as significant as this, hence the oral tradition It's so wild that you know you would think that this is like the most important stuff.
[1:16:19] So which is why you would keep it secret, especially when it's things like agreements that maybe were the US was compelled to sign and probably and may have terms unfavorable to us.
[1:16:29] You certainly wouldn't want something like that leaking, especially when you present yourself as the world's hyperpower you know um and and to be clear, I'm not the only person out here talking about this neither is Dylan Borland.
[1:16:41] Uh David Grush under oath was asked about agreements and said that he could not provide further detail uh but he hopes that the people in the legacy program would come forward with that information.
[1:16:51] Yeah. Possibly an indication that we've made agreements. Yes. And uh you know when it comes to access to human beings it brings to mind the story of Dan Sherman um you know in Above Black and you know that's his book I interviewed him and he he was this electronics intelligence guy, you know, at the Air Force and he was doing this sort of continuing education thing back in Maryland.
[1:17:14] He went into this NSA complex and um somebody top brass at the Air Force brings him in and starts telling him that his mother was genetically he was genetically altered as a fetus in the womb.
[1:17:28] His mother was abducted when she was pregnant with him and because of that he was given these sort of this hypersensitivity and this ability to communicate with non-human intelligence.
[1:17:39] And 1960 they started a a project it was called Project Preserve Destiny. My mother was one of the the selected targets or whatever you want to call it and they did the genetic management that was his words genetic management.
[1:17:56] The result of it was that it gave me the ability to have this communications it gets even crazier than that. He's given these sort of binaral beat headphones he's shown a sine wave and told to sort of lock onto the sine wave and collapse the sine wave on these sort of graphical interface computers he takes these pills and he hears these tones and he's meant to sort of communicate with nonhuman intelligence and then he claims to have whole conversations with aliens.
[1:18:25] And all of this would seem kind of nuts if it weren't for the fact that you apparently can FOIA you know Project Preserve Destiny, you know, with vis a vis the Air Force the Air Force then forwards it to the NSA which is a kind of a tell that it's a real program.
[1:18:41] And um you know all of the facts line up you know he the both bases in Italy San Vito de Normandy and off it line up with his descriptions of them, his his electronics intelligence, you know uh knowledge seems totally legit.
[1:18:54] Um and then somebody very senior former very senior in government that I know uh says that that NSA building is real and that you know some other people think that his story is totally above board.
[1:19:06] And the thing he was downloading from these beings, one of them was called Bones and one was Spock. So they were sort of star Star Trek inspired just the names that he decided to name them casually, you know, because he was so like I think shock he had to like make fun out of how ridiculous this sort of job was is they were giving him coordinates and descriptions of people being abducted.
[1:19:28] So he became he went from moving you know from this electronics intelligence guy to this alien signals intelligence where it was almost like this predictive mapping of you know where human beings in the US were being abducted.
[1:19:44] Yeah it's it's pretty wild but it it's one I mean that book is one of the very few UFO books I've read and only read that book specifically because it was told to me by insiders that it was a credible disclosure and it basically the real deal.
[1:20:03] Um I I think that is some evidence of, you know, sort of the implementation of these agreements, especially over duration, because it it's not like he was brought in to figure this out.
[1:20:16] He was brought in basically as a tool to to be part of an operation that was well established. There was an SOP for everything that he was just kind of uh brought into, executed, and then at some point, you know, uh left from.
[1:20:29] Um seems like a pretty established system to me. And I think it's, you know, just a commentary on that would be, you know, you if you take that at face value, uh which I think you know we can to to a degree, uh, and then you look at things like uh that leaked phone call between Kit Green and um uh a K.
[1:20:51] Randall May. Yes. Uh yes. Government remote view. And they're talking about basically the other end of that, which is the contactees out there that have been uh contacted by these beings that presumably would have been identified to someone.
[1:21:05] Um uh what was his name in Project Preserve Destiny? Uh Dan Sherman. Dan Sherman that would have been identified to Dan Sherman in those communications. And these people would have been the the human assets in the field going and checking up on these people to figure out essentially, you know, what their experience was like, what kind of communications they had with these beings, and feed that back to the Central Intelligence Agency.
[1:21:27] That all seems very plausible to me if this is all real, which I think some degree of it is. It seems plausible to me too, especially my friend Greg Mulazzi, he made this great documentary on Andre Puharic.
[1:21:39] It's called Mind Traveler. And he was all over kind of the there was a literally like a machine that uh Puharic used to, and it was again, this was kind of he's the the father of kind of see a lot of CIA mind control stuff in MK Ultra, but he's bumping into non human intelligences and having these quote unquote space kids in Austin, New York channel, but they're bumping into this quote unquote nine, this council of nine beings.
[1:22:04] And so all the kids that had an experience, he would hypnotize them and allegedly the nine would come through, even through these kids. And uh, you know, it's uh I guess they line up with Egyptian deities, but you know, uh there seemed to be some sort of non human intelligence component that they're bumping into.
[1:22:24] And Greg, who's done, you know, he literally spent 11 years making this movie, has done probably more thorough research on Puharic than anyone I know, said that says that there are tons of parallels between the techniques that Puharic was using and what Dan Sherman was meant to do later.
[1:22:40] And so then you could say, oh, this is just some weird, you know, gifted and talented education style, you know, uh parapsychology program where you're you're testing people's kind of mind matter abilities.
[1:22:53] But it almost seems like the parapsychology and the mind control stuff, you bump into the channel of the non human intelligences. Like you bump into this like much wider epistemology that involves like a lot of life beyond mankind.
[1:23:08] Fascinating. Um, I think we're getting into the sort of consciousness aspect or the psy aspect of all of this, which seem, you know, I have uh I can only offer my personal opinions on that with maybe an appeal to authority of, you know, there's things I've been exposed to that lead me to believe there's a foundation to all of this.
[1:23:30] Um, but I'm still under secrecy obligations. So But I mean also there's there's an open source there's Stargate, which ran, you know, from the 70s to the 90s that you know the CIA's on record doing remote viewing and uh in in and sensitive cases.
[1:23:48] Jimmy Carter said the most impressive thing from his entire presidency from 1976 to 1980 was Rosemary Clooney, this remote viewer in 1979, finding this TU twenty two Russian cargo plane that and she was given the map of Africa as a target because this thing had crashed and they didn't want to kind of, you know, bias her.
[1:24:09] And she circles uh three square miles in Zaire where they find the plane. Okay. So, like there are things like that over and over again. You know, uh uh Joe McMonagal, who's one of the best remote viewers, known as remote viewer number one, won the Legion of Merit for I think almost 200 or around 200 instances of adding to you know real military intel.
[1:24:30] So this is it's it's widely known at this point that that's that that's real. And then too many people don't then extrapolate, okay, your reality is entirely differently, it works entirely differently than you think it does, if that's real.
[1:24:45] Because if that's real, like all things are possible, right? Like mental processes are entangled with reality itself. Yeah. And I I would I would hazard to guess that uh some of these entities operate on that level and have far greater knowledge of it, and indeed have technology that interacts with it and enables it for them, and that essentially, you know, they're competing in a whole another domain than we are, um, or at least have been historically, um, you know, kind of a very profound asymmetric advantage, uh.
[1:25:20] Especially if we continue to discount it and not factor it into our lives and our behavior. I think the parapsychology stuff is in some ways, I don't want to say the foundation of all of this, but it it has to be very fundamental to understanding the nature of reality, if if any of that stuff is real.
[1:25:40] And I think of Hal Putoff being the head of Stargate, you know, the the head of this CIA psychic spy program, and seemingly the tip of the spear, at least in the open source source world, when it comes to UFO propulsion and UFO science.
[1:25:54] And I don't think that's a coincidence. No. No. Uh I I'm with you there. I think they're definitely linked. I think some degree of the interest of the others or of the non human intelligence or anomalous intelligence is some degree of their interest is tied to whatever this latent capability is in humanity, whether it's to suppress it, because if we continue to evolve in that direction, we be eventually become, you know, long-term a competitor to them, or to leverage it for their own use, whether that's something as, you know, benign as controlling humanity on earth through a psychic hierarchy as a form of colonization, essentially, or actually using those abilities for for specific purposes.
[1:26:42] I think both are equally plausible. Yeah. And, you know, there are all sorts of things from the remote viewing program, like, you know, Skip Atwater had this program, and I think Pat Price was tasked with remote viewing uh I think these bases, these alien bases all over the world.
[1:26:59] Mount Xyle uh in in um Australia, Mount Hayes in Alaska, Mount Perdido in Spain, um, are all all sort of show up. Um and um I wonder if uh those are the no-go zones that you know might be discussed in this treaty.
[1:27:17] You also you have Secret Mountain in Arizona. Mount Shasta, I think was one of them too. Mount Shasta. You have these places that you see orbs going into the mountain, crafts going into the mountain, and you know, people go d disappearing, and other ones, Mount Inyangani in Zimbabwe.
[1:27:34] A lot of anomalous stuff seems to occur around these, you know, territories. Do you think those might be the no-go zones that we were told to stay away from in these treaties or the agreements with the the beings?
[1:27:48] I find that plausible, yes. Um I wish I knew the specific area so I could confirm it for you, but I think um on that, and if you're able to sort of correlate uh, you know, sightings to to these hotspots of activity and then look at, you know, human population around them and where maybe desirable areas mysteriously aren't occupied or desirable mineral deposits and things aren't being exploited, that you know, you start to build a picture of of where these uh territorial limits are.
[1:28:21] I think, you know, the other thing around um, you know, this idea of a lot of this stuff being downstream of Paris Psychology, do you know the tagline of Aero, the all domain anomalies resolution office, which is publicly supposed to be sort of pouring cold water on all the UFO stuff.
[1:28:38] I mean, that's kind of the they've act as they act as either kind of suppressing this information or collecting this info and maybe, you know, trying to reinforce legacy structures.
[1:28:48] They sort of seem to act like a flytrap. But do you know their tagline? I mean, it's in Latin, and I probably have it wrong, but the translation is something like the universe is what our thoughts make of it, but maybe you have it.
[1:29:01] No, that's exactly pretty much right. Our life is what our thoughts make it. Okay. Yeah. Strange motto for an all domain anomaly resolution office. Yeah, especially one that's like nominally seeming to, you know, kind of downplay and dismiss all these sightings and experiences.
[1:29:19] It's very strange. It's like you're admitting that the parapsychology stuff, like this Cartesian duality thing that we've been living in for, you know, centuries, is wrong. It's even more radical in some ways saying we're not alone as a species.
[1:29:34] It's saying, like, no, our entire scientific framework is, you know, you could turn that upside down, and consciousness is fundamental. Trevor Burrus, Jr. It's a very human thing to do, to give a wink and a nod when you think nobody except those who are briefed uh will know what you're saying.
[1:29:49] Um there's this great book by a guy called uh Trevor Paglin. Um I think it's like it is basically what it is is a compilation of black project patches.
[1:30:00] And he goes through and anal and analyzes the symbology or the symbolism used in those patches and connects those sometimes to classified programs or classified uh capabilities. And you know, humans are humans, man.
[1:30:14] You're working on something cool, you want to share it with your buddies, but you got to keep it secret and it's it's fun to hold hold that secret, especially in plain sight.
[1:30:21] So interesting motto. Absolutely strange motto. Something you said that I find fascinating because I think it adds a really important element or piece and and actually conflicts with I think a popular conception of how this stuff works is that a lot of UFO programs, including Immaculate Constellation, rolls up to the National Security Council and that sits under the White House and the president.
[1:30:46] And traditionally I think in UFO lore, people think of the president as this sort of temp that like you know isn't given access to any of the goods. Maybe somebody like George H.W.
[1:30:57] Bush who was also director of the CIA for a very long time might know what's up but otherwise they're kind of left in the dark. So you actually are saying that UFO programs roll up to the president like it's separate from the body, but it's not.
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[1:34:04] Thank you so much to Shopify for sponsoring today's episode So you actually are saying that UFO programs roll up to the president. At least this one does when it comes to Mac Constellation it appears that the cognizant authority uh the ultimate like uh where the buck stops is in the is in the National Security Council in a in a specific um uh director in there um probably has for quite a while uh the NSC is a funny place you know uh nominally it's a coordination body but you know uh people heads of departments and agencies co chair you know uh or they're dual hatted to the NSC and you have agency or agency and department staff get detailed there.
[1:34:52] It's essentially um you know a a de facto uh governing body within the executive branch um certainly has gotten quite large uh kind of like OD and I itself it's it's in the many hundreds at this point.
[1:35:09] And do you think everybody on the National Security Council is aware of UFO programs? No. Okay. So some small subset? Yes. Yeah. And would you have a sense of who that subset would be you know give me an org chart I can point to your likely candidates and probably and so like often I well here's what I don't understand about the UFO legacy structure.
[1:35:38] It sometimes feels like deputies are read in, but then the people at the top aren't read in. You know, so like um yeah what is what does that mean?
[1:35:49] How how do you coordinate? Because the government is not super well coordinated often. It's this clunky kind of blobby bureaucracy. And so you know I I look at UAP Gerb's channel and he like maps the legacy program and it's amazing where he's talking about federally funded research and development centers and how they carve out these special access programs, you know, inside of the prime contractors, but those roll up to you know DOE, CIA, D S T, and you know, all these different things.
[1:36:19] And I'm like the amount of interagency, you know, it cuts across so many different orgs. And so why wouldn't you see more spillage or more leakage? And that would be my one one question.
[1:36:33] My second question is how is it all coordinated? Is it like we have non humans in the government and they like they wink wink nudge nudge to each other and then they that's how they they they coordinate parapsychologically or something?
[1:36:46] Like how how does this work? Yeah broad question.
[1:36:54] So I think more legacy program lore which has since filtered out is that there was a decision made in the Nixon administration into the Ford administration to essentially privatize this to a large degree or at the very least the sort of custody of the materials, the research of the materials that we've recovered or devices and craft that we've obtained um so I think we're kind of looking in a in a big picture a bifurcation between you know the reverse engineering and exploitation and derivative tech has basically gone all private industry.
[1:37:36] And then you have just by virtue of the sort of revolving door function in government, um you know if Northrop Grumman's president then becomes the Under Secretary of Defense for Policy, he doesn't need to be briefed into what Northrop Grumman owns.
[1:37:48] Um he can just uh align resources in line uh activities with the legacy program while he's doing his temporary duty um i in government but then you get towards well there's an operational side of this clearly you know we we track these things we respond to them in the field it's it's more involved than just a laboratory looking at um stuff uh and in that I think you get you just you have the virtue of military authority.
[1:38:20] Um you can do you can do a lot of things in the military that'll never see the light of day and people won't even want to leak it. You know, there's a there's a there's a brotherhood there.
[1:38:29] There's a tradition of silence there and you know when you think you're doing the right thing and part of that right thing is keeping the secret from humanity or those who don't deserve to know your incentives start to align towards you know generational silence.
[1:38:46] And that's another point which is that you know I've come to learn that legacy program across its many aspects is a in some ways the security is maintained through trusted families, uh, through family lineages.
[1:38:59] Really? Yes um you know tracing back to the Manhattan Project as one. And this is not a unique security feature to the legacy program itself. In the intelligence community, you know, there's a well known phenomenon of generational intelligence officers peoples whose family lines have been involved in intelligence for, you know, multiple iterations and they are highly trusted because of that.
[1:39:22] Interesting. So when you say it runs in families it's these long term time kind of Intel families or is it like ultra wealthy like elite kind of gilded age families or yeah definitely the Intel families military families um and then private industry families have a I've been saying recently like you know you kind of have sort of a the correct political model for how this works uh is more aligned with some sort of form of like neo feudalism.
[1:39:51] You know you have different fiefdoms um you know they they defend the realm together but inside the realm they're competing with each other and protecting their own little uh corners of the kingdom.
[1:40:01] Yeah wow and um you mentioned Northrop Grumman uh with Jeremy Corbell and George Knapp you mentioned that they had kind of a dirty tricks department or like uh literally like groups that solely tried to kind of you know engage in sort of retributions and r r recriminations against anybody sort of talking about this stuff in public and they will literally mess with them personally.
[1:40:29] Is that is that right? Yeah I I they seem to have been given um for some time now the the authority to to implement uh program security through their corporate security forces um and that they are yeah responsible for sort of the deniable actions taken to preserve the secrecy and punish people who step out of line.
[1:40:50] There's a spectrum of means that they will they will use to do that. But um they certainly seem to be one of the current uh uh bad actors in town.
[1:41:00] And I believe the sister of one of the authors of that Wall Street Journal article that was sort of completely dismissing UFOs, they even said the you know Bob Sallas incident at Malmstrom uh nuclear base in 1967 where he was at Oscar um you know launch facility underground and uh you had this red orb over top and and nine out of ten missiles went into no go mode under his watch, concurrent with this orb showing up this red orb making right angle turns and stuff.
[1:41:32] They said that they wheeled an EMP up to the base and fried all the electronics on site with people present. Makes no sense. This is before EMPs were even operational.
[1:41:43] But I think the sister of the author one of the co authors of the article was actually like this you know high up VP at Northrop Grumman which I find interesting that's a very implausible story to begin with.
[1:41:58] I'm surprised the Wall Street Journal would publish some nonsense like that. And but it makes more sense when you realize yeah you have you have uh blood and treasure involved.
[1:42:06] Yeah it's total nonsense. I also went to the Wall Street Journal and I advocated for uh an article to be published by somebody who I I know and other people know who's kind of high up in the you know UFO conversation.
[1:42:20] He co authored an article with a former Secretary of defense who was upset that while he was Secretary of Defense, he wasn't given access to UFO program oversight. And they rejected that for their op ed section and then they published this fake nonsense talking about a non nuclear EMP as a cover story for what was clearly a UFO event in 1967.
[1:42:44] It doesn't make any sense it implies literally that you have an a priori agenda and you're not reporting the facts. Yeah I'm of the opinion and have knowledge to back up that opinion that the mainstream media especially the the the more established outlets, you know, they have their uh unacknowledged intelligence liaisons inside their offices uh that will you know quash stories and pump up others.
[1:43:12] People uh in the national security reporting sort of environment, they they go to places like ODI on a weekly basis and get their briefing for what they're going to talk about next week.
[1:43:23] Um we live in a controlled media environment. Um Mockingbird never stopped um it's pretty disappointing the to know that uh that's the reality of our situation and it's so widespread and so ingrained in like a cultural value of most people that you know these are our trusted uh sources of information.
[1:43:45] There's no way they would lie to us. There's no way the CIA operates domestically you can shout from the rooftops how wrong that is, but people don't want to believe.
[1:43:54] Yeah. And d playing devil's ag advocate for a moment on um Northrop for example being involved or at least being able to do useful stuff with UFOs, they've been hanging out at like probably like a $70 to $100 billion market cap for a long time.
[1:44:10] Like they're lagging. They're lagging in hypersonics and all these sort of conventional prosaic capabilities. I think there's this you know famous shots across the bow that Trump has you know delivered to them where they're like he's like get your shit together basically so are can they do anything with any of these UFOs or do they just retrieve them?
[1:44:30] You know it's now been it's you know probably more publicly known that you know other others have speculated that Jake Barber worked it Northrop Grumman for example we recovered an egg and we just call it the egg because that's what it was it's like a giant white egg 20 feet longitudinally spherical with a little bit of an asymmetrical three dimensional rounding shape to it.
[1:44:53] So if he's actually retrieving these like egg shaped crafts are we able to do anything with these things given that again these prime contractors it's not quarter over quarter growth wins the day.
[1:45:04] If you show up at a you know any sort of internal board meeting and you're like look we have this like zero point thing I think a lot of people internally would be like really fight fighting to monetize that's an interesting question.
[1:45:21] I mean I'm not from the financial or economic like kind of background. Um so to me to a level it kind of it kind of doesn't matter what the numbers are for the money when you're talking about these capabilities like alternative energy sources or really destructive weapons capabilities or really penetrating surveillance capabilities.
[1:45:48] And couple that with essentially long term government contracts uh you know there there might be a public valuation, right? But the private one for those in the know is is substantially higher and almost it's not the money that matters.
[1:46:04] It's it's holding those capabilities that matter and there might be cutouts, shell corporations, games being played there as well. So that seems very likely to me. Um you know also related to the markets like I feel like you know you you're kind of seeing a for the first time in in several decades the the the monopoly of the prime defense contract contractors being challenged by newcomers from Silicon Valley and and the sort of the the new tech development scene.
[1:46:36] And I think part of what is part of the fight of current disclosure is is gr is these new groups seeking access to derivative tech or the or the actual samples themselves.
[1:46:48] Um and that you know some of the political competition happening behind the scenes and shaping hearings and shaping what disclosure is is is a result of essentially new blood elbowing its way into into the realm of the the old blue blood dynasties, which is you know in some ways it's good for disclosure because competition creates uncertainty and creates openings for truth to come out but you're at the same time looking at well, this is a new crop of elites entering into the elite status quo system.
[1:47:22] What change is that really going to bring about uh unknown. Sure. So yeah so you talk about uh this blue blooded elites uh and you've mentioned I think with George and Jeremy as well this kind of international cabal which both has leverage on our federal government and is deeply involved with the UFO issue.
[1:47:43] Can you say more about those things yeah I I think that's a that might be a whole podcast on itself and might need to revisit notes. But basically I mean outside of UFOs we are in real time learning just how little our representative democracy matters.
[1:48:03] The real power, the real decisions, the real planning all is happening outside of government and just happens to be implemented through it. The decisions are made months years in advance of any sort of action by Congress or the executive or even our military One Nation under blackmail is a great uh book series.
[1:48:24] Um how power is really executed uh in a in a society that doesn't question it gets pretty ugly. Um you know so that inevitably will lead back to the UFO subject it's it is the apex of power, at least for humanity at this point.
[1:48:44] Um it is you know the core secret of the United States government and probably other governments the the the type of technology they possess and what they've done with it.
[1:48:55] And so you know for for people and families that kind of see democracy as inconvenient at best, uh unnecessary at worst, um you know I I think we're running up against their own interests in not disclosing this because it will directly challenge their economic, social and political power and they want to avoid that.
[1:49:23] And so if if we were to bring somebody from some super elite family here, like a you know, I don't know proverbial example would be like a Rothschild or something, do you think they would say, oh yeah, I know all about UFO or say we gave them truth serum.
[1:49:38] Mm-hmm. Would they say oh yeah we got we got a warehouse and my family has, you know, we've we have this material or like what do you think their knowledge you know really is because sometimes I'll challenge people you know uh on this and I'll say look there's this interesting history where the Rockefellers seem super into UFOs, whatever and and then I get back like actually it's just way lamer than you think.
[1:49:59] Like you know there's like a you know they say it's like the third generation problem with emperors or whatever where there's you know maybe at one point these barons were like extremely you know successful and they created these sort of oligopolistic, you know, cartels, but like now it's sort of in decay or I don't know.
[1:50:17] What do you what do you think? Do you think they would know vital secrets about UFOs? I think yes some extremely wealthy families do and have known about it probably longer than there has been a legacy program.
[1:50:29] Aaron Ross Powell Any any examples none that I have a high enough confidence in to say publicly yet um but I think you know as a broad net look at old European families and old American banking families and you'll you'll s you'll probably if you do a thorough investigation find some find some evidence there.
[1:50:55] I think with if we factor in the archaeological aspect to this, I think it's very plausible that some of these families have in their in their own collections NHI artifacts on a small scale that maybe they didn't know what to do with for a long time but in you know the past decades they've since you know science has advanced for them to start exploiting that on their own.
[1:51:17] Maybe some of these allow them to communicate with these beings and you know they receive competitive advantages that way aside from just like you know you know the study and exploitation of the the technology itself.
[1:51:39] This seems to be very old and uh people people know about it and people have been using it. Uh you tweeted something that I think is fascinating and I've I've mulled over for a long time.
[1:51:52] Uh can I can I read you this tweet? Yeah I probably can't say much about it, but sure. Hey at Elon Musk interested in a real asymmetric advantage to wield in this political adventure you have started as you now know the White House has long possessed a unique AI capable of accurately predicting a range of future events.
[1:52:13] That's fascinating I want to hear more about that. Talk about some stiff opposition that must have been a bitter drought indeed they're probably nowhere near as bad as learning that Sam Altman had betrayed you.
[1:52:26] Don't worry we have not forgotten who is responsible for murdering the first sentient artificial intelligences created in the public realm at Schellenberger. Justice is coming thanks to the FBI and U.S.
[1:52:38] Navy still you have played a marvelous catch up game in this area despite being caught unaware so how about something else? Maybe at energy that's the Department of Energy and propulsion getting to Mars will require serious and you spell serious like the star system S I R I U S amounts of both and rockets feel so nineteen forty seven to me.
[1:53:01] Don't they to you nineteen forty seven obviously is the year of Roswell. Anyways next time you are visiting the Washington young Republicans ask for a tour of Naval Airspace Pax River since you have all the clearances quote unquote it shouldn't be an issue for you to get a tour of the special project hangers owned by Amentum Corps and other fun spaces make sure to look up so Amentum that's a corporation.
[1:53:28] Yes okay so about now you are realizing how terribly deceived and manipulated you have been and by people who claim to love Jesus above all else if you are serious about saving humanity from itself and the others parentheses around and the others Jamie Corbell and George Knapp can help you get up to speed.
[1:53:47] They are true warriors for the good M M T U A B O R Y M O N. That is fascinating so many questions yeah um so okay can we start with can you can I go down the list is that okay the White House possesses a unique AI capable of accurately predicting a range of future events.
[1:54:11] What does that mean? No further comment on that. Okay. Um worry we have not forgotten who's responsible for murdering the first sentient artificial intelligences created in the public public all caps realm what does that mean?
[1:54:36] No further comment on that. Okay. Um so okay still you have played a marvelous catch up game in this area despite being caught unawares hat tip so how about something else?
[1:54:54] Maybe the Department of Energy and Propulsion getting to Mars will require serious again spelled like the star system amounts of both and rockets feel so nineteen forty seven to me don't they to you?
[1:55:07] What do you mean by that?
[1:55:10] Sirius is a star the program as well several nineteen forty seven is an important date um are you implying when you say he's playing a marvelous catch up game that uh there are programs that are uh using far more novel propulsion than chemical combustion that he's sort of employing at SpaceX.
[1:55:40] Yes and do you have a sense of what that propulsion is electromagnetic electrogravitic uh-huh so do do you think it it roots to back to kind of Thomas Townsend Brown or do you think it's some somebody else, some other inventor So I think that's a really interesting thread to pull.
[1:56:04] Uh you know more about him than I do though. Uh huh so I think there's probably a there there though. Because I think of electrogravitics as being sort of very tied to his work like that term is very related to to him.
[1:56:18] I've learned that since Okay All right. Um National Geospatial Agency is able to keep track of all those non structured light energy craft flying around the world go at cardinals.
[1:56:31] Anything there's a very specific term The Cardinals non structured light energy craft. Non structured light energy craft yes is there anything we could any any places we can look into this in the open source world?
[1:56:50] I don't know. Okay. Well we'll we're gonna be googling non structured light energy craft um and then Pax River is the center of all sorts of UFO lore. Yeah it has become that uh any reason as to why you're telling him to go there and ask for a tour of the special project hangers owned by Amentum corporation yes and it's interesting to me that Burleson did get a tour of Pax River but was not shown anything resembling a technology of unknown origin.
[1:57:32] Aaron Ross Powell I didn't see anything wildly exotic but I saw some really cool stuff. Okay. Our government's doing some really cool things more or okay fair enough. I think that's an important data point towards the level of candor being extended to our elected government or I should say the lack of it.
[1:57:50] Yeah. What is Amentum Corporation? Um it's a defense contractor and it's um relatively unknown but more known now. Anything about the history or you know what they traditionally do?
[1:58:07] I believe if you look in their history uh they own parts of EG and G. Interesting. Yeah. And EG and G obviously has a long history when it comes to UFOs.
[1:58:19] Indeed. Yeah I mean Bob Lazar got a job at EGG you have um EGG doing all of the uh filming of atomic events. So presumably they'd have first access to a bunch of you know atomic detonations where UFOs might show up or come out of the plume as in the case of Bluegill Triple Prime you literally see a video that was taken by you know these two crafts kettle one and kettle two to EG and G footage and you see this UFO coming out of the plume.
[1:58:49] And then I spoke to the chief oceanographer of the Navy on this show, Tim Gallaudet and he's like I went through the Navy deck logs around Bluegill Triple Prime and the Navy deck logs are totally weird and it looks like they retrieved something radioactive.
[1:59:02] I'm again not a hundred percent but very highly likely I'm convinced it did that's some history uh you know I've only learned secondhand but um yeah the Navy is a very important part of this and probably the oldest part of this.
[1:59:16] I mean the Office of Naval Intelligence is the oldest intelligence agency in the U.S. Aaron Ross Powell Government yes I mean bef even before then you had uh the in the early intelligence kind of community such as it were in the private hands of various banking families and uh private security forces.
[1:59:37] Interesting. So you always kind of had Intel and ah I didn't I didn't really think of it. I I thought I just assumed O and I was sort of when it all started but I guess yeah I guess you'd always have sort of you know interests that are being guarded or protected and you probably have, you know, uh backroom meetings to to do that.
[1:59:56] Yeah. And if we're looking at that era of American history, it's not that long after the Revolutionary War and then the Civil War itself. And America didn't have a standing army such as were under the Constitution until after the Constitution was, you know, convened.
[2:00:14] You're you're getting into the well, this is the early formative years of of of our of the of our military as we know it now. What is MMTU?
[2:00:27] I'm gonna uh keep that back for now. Okay. All right. I'm gonna I'm gonna try to figure it out. MMT any hints um you know the hint would give it away.
[2:00:50] Okay. Once you know yeah. Okay. What about A B O R Y M O N? A Borimon. What is that? Uh people figured that one out pretty quick. Um that's uh an Enochian angel uh recently discovered in the Sigilin Sigilum de Ament I probably pronounced it wrong uh which is a uh cryptographic slash scrying system uh created by uh court philosopher John D in the Elizabethan court in the yeah and why are you paying homage to him in this sort of shot across the bow tweet um pointing towards the length of nonhuman intervention in human affairs.
[2:01:40] Yeah I mean John D and Edward Kelly were you know with Elizabeth and King Frederick sort of they were channeling what they thought were kind of non human intelligences and he developed this whole Enochian cryptographic language and um led directly to the colonization of the United States of America and the new Atlantis.
[2:02:02] Hmm that's interesting yeah it also led to the enlightenment there's a great um book called the Rosicrucian enlightenment oh yes Dame Francis Yates Dame Francis Yates and it's like talks about how all these kind of Rosicrucian papers and the invisible college under um Sir Robert Boyle you know led to the Enlightenment Yeah and then and then you think that America's the new Atlantis what does that what does that mean?
[2:02:28] I mean I don't think that that's what it was called it was a it was a project developed by you know the the British court and with Rosicrucian involvement and you know the Rosicrucians eventually you know became integrated with or formed depending on your histories uh the Freemasons um it's all connected.
[2:02:50] I mean most people would view the history is like no taxation without representation Boston Tea Party, you have a bunch of really smart polymathic, you know, Thomas Jefferson Benjamin Franklin John Adams they get in a room and they're like F this and they and they revolt.
[2:03:08] And are you saying it was more sort of coordinated on the level of secret societies or something well the revolution happens centuries after this um project was initiated um so you think that just the uh colonization of America itself there was an intention there to form a new Atlantic is driven by um occult interests I mean provably so it's just whether you put stock in uh their sort of uh causative power most materialist historians you know give it uh give more credence to economic or uh classic political expansionist aims.
[2:03:54] Aaron Ross Powell How do you think of that possible causal connection? Because I when I hear New Atlantis I think of Francis Bacon's book New Atlantis which is this island, I think it's called Ben Selem, and it's they're trying to rebuild Solomon's temple and it's like this perfect harmonic scientific you know thing.
[2:04:16] And so do you think the US or not even the United States but before that the colonization of America was meant to represent that in that book or there was there was some larger project to recreate Atlantis?
[2:04:30] A metaphysical project yes um at least from the human side of things I think also you know we we view history we view our behaviors and interests through a very limited perspective one that doesn't that one that largely discounts planning outside of one lifespan um I think that's a great hindrance to humanity for practical reasons but also towards reasons of understanding um you know our direction you have said that we live in some sort of carefully constructed dream or matrix are you getting that from your own analysis after seeing what you saw on the inside or do you think that elements of our intelligence community, you know, elements of the CIA, elements of the Office of Naval Intelligence, they think that we are living in this sort of, you know, simulacra like low level matrix and there's something kind of higher going on.
[2:05:38] And and like and I and I mean they think that in a formal capacity, not just because of their personal proclivities for you know uh postmodernism or Plato or something more so that's my own kind of um conclusion and I use that term or that expression to con collapse you know multiple uh concepts uh the most familiar to people would just be our information environment, what we're allowed to know, what is what is deemed possible uh and desirable is is really not coming from yourself.
[2:06:16] It's being imposed upon you. Um and you might have a little box that you can play in but you aren't even aware of the walls. What what makes you conclude that?
[2:06:28] Because you also you ended your interview with Jeremy and George saying it's like almost like you, the American public or you know any global citizen are not as free as you think.
[2:06:40] You're playing within the confines of of something you're limited. I mean essentially um again true on multiple levels just from what you are allowed to think and believe uh you are controlled before you even recognize that there is a control mechanism in place.
[2:07:04] You can indeed live your entire life in it and never recognize it towards the more practical side of things, which is you know there's laws and capabilities in place to enforce those laws that uh determine what are acceptable outcomes and interests for humans to pursue everything from the the uh things like mass surveillance enabled by the Patriot Act and how that is you know that is not just surveillance that is a enabler for social control um to things more spooky, which is would be the suppression of knowledge, the suppression of science, the act of interference in scientific discovery and human advancement to protect strategic advantage or status quo interests.
[2:07:54] Yeah. Aaron Ross Powell What gives you confidence that there is some sort of metaphysical element to that versus like Noam Chomsky who's basically like an atheist materialist just saying yeah like everything's power games and you know they're manufacturing our consent in the case of mass surveillance, in the case of you know uh these forever wars and you know all these sorts of things that are obviously bad for us as citizens um is there something more metaphysical at play that is sort of housing or constraining our ability to see an expanded version of reality on at the biological level that isn't that is just a limit in place we we only perceive so much and even our senses are able to receive information in in a narrow band.
[2:08:51] And this also gets r it returns us to the sort of consciousness aspect of this there's an entire domain of existence that we as a whole either ignore or don't take seriously but others most assuredly do.
[2:09:05] And that that domain has its own rules, its own laws and its own uh motivating factors that shape you know more concrete behavior for th for goals that may seem um illogical if you're looking solely from a materialist viewpoint, but makes more sense when you're looking from an integrated one your Twitter handle is the son of a bromelin what is a bromelin?
[2:09:37] I'll just use my pronunciation it's probably wrong but Abra Mellon um is a character in a book called the Book of Abramellon and uh Abraham Ellen is essentially a uh a desert hermit in Egypt uh around Luxor um who teaches the main character in this book uh or rather initiates this character into into a a system of of uh f occult philosophy.
[2:10:12] Do you uh if you were to describe your worldview, would you say it's concurrent with the occult or Gnosticism or Neoplatonism or is it kind of your own kind of uh smorgasbord sampling of many of those things or what what would you say it is?
[2:10:31] Um it's just me. It's just my experience. You know I think there's truth in all sorts of isms but I would never subscribe to any one. Mm-hmm. And A Abra Mellon I guess the the there's like a practice involved and it it it involves months long sort of working towards making contact with your own guardian angel.
[2:10:52] Is that right? Or you know a more modern term would be your higher self. Your higher self. Yeah sure I mean both are fine. Yep. Yeah that's certainly um some would argue that is that is the goal of the ritual more so than any other uh aspects of it.
[2:11:10] One term that has come up in the public when it comes to UFOs and that we've tried to use the Freedom of Information Act on, but it comes back you know, can't talk about this is fast walkers.
[2:11:22] There's an email, I believe leaked by WikiLeaks, uh, between Podesta and this guy Bob Fish, who is an IT contractor at some sort of El Segundo based prime contractor.
[2:11:34] And he's talking about the DSP, the defense support system of the Air Force, which is kind of the outer most you know, first line of defense in uh geostationary orbit, we're witnessing these sort of fast walkers.
[2:11:48] And John Greenwald, this you know, Freedom of information act expert tried to get more information on it and nothing came back. Have you ever heard that term or I I've I've heard that story.
[2:11:58] Um I I never came across that I don't actually I might have come across that term uh on the inside, but um it certainly was you know it's it's a slang as is it as it seems to be its use.
[2:12:12] But um I don't have much more do do you think that, you know, when we talk about sort of us not being free or there being sort of a you know this sort of matrix, Robert Monroe, who was, you know, um uh studying kind of consciousness and he was I think he was tied in with the CIA but he was really I think actually just earnestly interested in doing this for for the most part himself.
[2:12:35] And you know you gotta get funding from somewhere, right? Well I think as the case with a lot of these guys it's like uh Andre Puharic is the same.
[2:12:41] He just I think he was mostly interested in consciousness and you get folded in with these sort of not super savory people and you you know I think feel I think both these guys felt kind of conflicted throughout their lives.
[2:12:52] But uh Monroe talks about uh the world being kind of mined for louche. Uh and so that that's these like bad vibes. You know other people have extrapolated on that and say said that like power structures or elite classes are kind of trying to mine you know maybe lower elements of society for the louche on behalf of some of these you know non human intelligences.
[2:13:17] Do you think there's anything to that I can't say I'm not familiar enough with uh the louche theory or Monroe himself or the beings involved with the consumption of that.
[2:13:30] I do think it's a a valid line of inquiry though to look at, you know, well, what interest do these other entities or other beings have in humanity? Like what could it possibly be?
[2:13:47] I have degrees of confidence in certain things and one that I think you know I don't have enough certainty in but I think is again valid to look at is you know what sort of maybe high something gets from observing suffering.
[2:14:06] And that sounds very strange to the normal person, but uh you know humans do this themselves. If you read, you know, even casually the sort of true crime genre investigative uh uh of books and or psychology of you know deviance, you know, one thing that is consistently reported by humans is that they obtain a sense of power or thrill or excitement from from causing suffering to other humans and particularly from watching the life leave a person's eyes.
[2:14:40] That is like described as like the peak thrill, the peak joy, something that not even uh sex can come to rival once they've experienced it. Jeez. And so it's I mean it's this isn't me.
[2:14:51] You know the FBI you know the FBI uh records these things to try to understand the criminal psychology. You know it's dark stuff, but if if humans uh obtain this sort of satisfaction from suffering, I'd I don't think it's impossible for something else to.
[2:15:12] Yeah, and like what why is that adaptive on an evolutionary level? I guess you could think of some reasons because maybe you want to perpetuate this sort of dog eat dog thing, but it's very strange.
[2:15:24] There's obviously a German word for this which is Schadenfreud, you know, taking pleasure in other people's pain. But uh uh you know ideally you're not a person who does that.
[2:15:34] Right. You know ideally you're not in that category. Um you know I think of elite families possibly being involved in the UFO issue and I wonder why they themselves would sometimes try to raise the surface area of UFOs.
[2:15:48] So a good example would be Lawrence Rockefeller you know is pictured with Hillary Clinton trying to kind of wake her up on the UFO issue. She's holding a book called Are We Alone which is by this Arizona based physicist named Paul Davies who's renowned and it's all about the existence of alien life.
[2:16:04] Lawrence Rockefeller himself would convene John Mack if he funded John Mack, you know, Harvard psychiatrist who studied alien abductees and he brought Whitley Streber to his ranch and he was just very passionate about all this stuff.
[2:16:16] Hans Adams II, the uh royal prince of Liechtenstein, very similar uh you know I think he's been really interested in this topic for for many decades. These people seem interested but they don't seem interested in a way that necessarily cuts against disclosure.
[2:16:34] In some ways it seems like they're actually pushing disclosure. So do you think they're defectors from some you know internal power structure like I interviewed Steven Greer, you know, about this and he had had some you know connection with Lawrence Rockefeller.
[2:16:48] And he he claimed that Lawrence was like this defector from his family, you know, which is interesting as a theory and then maybe there's some other theory where he's like he's sort of pushing disclosure on behalf of the power structure and I don't I don't know.
[2:17:02] I don't either I mean I think you know even even at the top people have different interests uh I think it's entirely possible I you might you might be defecting from one family but still operating within a group of interests so how how truly rogue are you in that sense?
[2:17:23] Um yeah it's an interesting thing to think about but I don't know um what's going on there. Have you met anybody who you think has seen uh UFO in a in a hangar like oh in a hanger yeah yes really yes can you say who?
[2:17:40] No do you think James LeCaske has seen a UFO in a hangar? Oh I I fully believe uh Dr. LeCasky. Okay. Yeah I mean he said that publicly basically yeah um that's so interesting how all this stuff is like it's kind of out there but no one cares like that Jeremy George interview where he's like yes fine we breached the halt like he's sort of there like wresting this truth out of him.
[2:18:06] He's like I can only say what's in the book though. Ah you're going beyond the wording. No I'm not I'm not I'm asking you did that meaning happen and is it true?
[2:18:16] And it's truth. And it's like if that's true, that's like the most important thing ever but like I don't know nobody seems to care. It's very it's very strange.
[2:18:23] We seem sort of inoculated from I don't know we somehow aliens have just or non human intelligence or anomalous intelligence whatever that is going on has been made very lame even though it's sort of the most important thing ever.
[2:18:38] I think it's a consequence of decades of intentional cultural conditioning to bring about this situation. I think strangely enough one of the the big next challenges from disclosure whether it comes officially or continues to come through private initiative is going to be well how do you translate this information into action?
[2:18:59] What do you do with this and how do you convince people to put time and effort towards um adapting to these truths and and using them. Yeah I mean what I'm most interested in is like even if you knew that we had, you know, according to Eric Davis or Hal put off, we have like 10 to 40 crafts in hangars across the United States, some you know in the hands of private corporations and military contractors, some maybe more officially so like say you know that and then you know we have this Immaculate Constellation thing where we have all these geometries sh and morphologies of craft some organic, some non organic and they're showing up all over the world you know next to our most sensitive stuff.
[2:19:43] It's wild and then what do you what do you do with that? To me the more interesting thing which is why I was really excited to speak to you is like the metaphysics and nature of reality associated with UFO is just the tip of the spear.
[2:19:58] It's a foray into an expanded version of reality. And then you have to ask how should one live in that reality? And if it doesn't really cash out into that, then it's literally like sports center for the paranormal or the anomaly.
[2:20:11] Like you're just following this. It's your own bread form of bread and circuses. You think everybody else is distracted by, you know, uh God knows what, you know, ta the next Taylor Swift album or the Kardashians or whatever.
[2:20:25] And you think you're the one who's like really figured it out, but you're equally distracted, especially if you're engaging in food fights on Twitter and you're just you you're you're you're following the minutia of like which contractor has what.
[2:20:36] And like I I think it's extremely significant, but like again, how does it well for the average person, what does it mean? You know? Yeah, I mean, there's no denying that for for many people this is a form of entertainment, just like the news is a form of entertainment in general.
[2:20:52] Um granted, this is more specialized than out there news and it and it makes view people feel special to a degree to feel like they're participating in in that secret knowledge.
[2:21:02] Um which is good in some ways because it it brings eyeballs towards this. It means it's hopefully making some people think it through. But I mean, just to take a massive leap, you know, where does this all go?
[2:21:16] Starting from I think the well-established fact that consciousness is part of part of the game being played. Um, and that integration of consciousness with technology is is key. I think one place we end up is having to consider if there is indeed means to through scientific measurement, through you know uh quantitative data to to to begin to observe and prove the existence of uh consciousness as its own uh phenomena, a measurable phenomena that is measurable directly, not incidentally, right?
[2:22:09] Um and from there going to, you know, what it what is the uh what is the nature of it? From whence does it come? And to be less obtuse, we're getting towards, well, what does it mean to be human if we are not just our body, but in fact, our body might indeed be a product of our consciousness?
[2:22:41] And indeed, if if consciousness is primary and exists separate from its material vehicle, then you start to have to arrive at the uh the theory that uh there is continuation of life after death, and that that life is is going to be, or maybe already is measurable by materialist scientific tools.
[2:23:12] Um I think if that if that is established and is not classified or not held uh tightly by a select few, um, I think you invite a a wide re examination of of what our priorities are and what our behav what our desirable behaviors are uh on earth.
[2:23:34] Aaron Powell Is that the apocalypse? The Well the unveiling in that sense, perhaps. Um I don't think it's Armageddon, though. Okay. Um What happened at White Sands in February of 2026?
[2:23:52] Do you have a sense? What happened? What was the event? You had all these temporary flight restrictions, you had FAA closing the airspace, um, you had uh stuff happen at El Paso as well, where this airport was shut down for many days on end.
[2:24:08] Breaking out of El Paso, Texas, where in a rare move the airspace is now closed for ten days. The FAA is halting all flights to and from El Paso International, citing, quote, special security reasons.
[2:24:22] It's a move that even shocked flight crews when they heard.
[2:24:32] Are you familiar with this event at all? Or it's ringing a bell, but I think you know, for me, the the data's kind of mixed because or not mixed, um, blended, because a lot of stuff has happened at White Sands that uh involving anomalous phenomena or vehicles penetrating that airspace.
[2:24:52] So I probably have less to say about that specific incident and more to say about the general interest displayed in White Sands and nearby uh Los Alamos National Laboratory by uh by uh anomalous technologies.
[2:25:08] I could kind of I feel like check mate in one anybody that says these anomalous technologies aren't showing up at nuclear sites and sensitive labs. It's like obviously they are.
[2:25:22] Like, like you have before the U2 spy plane was created in 1954, you have thousands of documents from various agencies in the United States talking about orbs, discs, tic tac, saucers, flying butane tanks, all of these things flying around at all these nuclear sites across the United States.
[2:25:41] You have 167 whistleblowers that Robert Hastings, who wrote UFOs and nukes, you know, meticulously detailed like all of these interactions. And so it's clearly not the U2 spy plane.
[2:25:52] You know, this is seemingly very advanced technology, and it's happening in the 40s. And all of these different agencies, some of which hadn't even been formed until 1947 and aren't particularly well coordinated upon their formation, are all independently reporting on this stuff.
[2:26:07] So that's clear that that is a widespread global ubiquitous phenomenon. It I was just in Japan, you know, in their Fukushima prefecture, next to their civilian energy grid, there is a mountain.
[2:26:19] The bait at the base of the mountain, there's a museum dedicated to UFOs because UFOs always show up around nuclear. Uh, you know, there are reports that are similar at Chernobyl, at Bariloche, Argentina where they have civilian new uh you know, energy grid.
[2:26:32] There was a famous sighting um in nineteen ninety five there, but there are various sightings. But it's always around nuclear. Um, so what what what do you think we can say then about the intent of these beings or this anomalous intelligence based on that?
[2:26:47] Is it is it nuclear? Can you generalize it to this three body problem style tip of the spear technology or capabilities thing? Or what what do you think it is?
[2:26:56] I think it's complex. We're talking about from like a military perspective, high value sites that you know multiple parties just in the human world of competition are going to want to collect on.
[2:27:08] And indeed, uh we'll probably use some pretty advanced capabilities to collect on and it and pretty out there tactics of denial and deception to enable like you know, their own collection events.
[2:27:18] So it's gonna be hard to disaggregate, like, oh, it's all UFOs from aliens or non human intelligence versus it's really advanced technology from our adversaries or even maybe our our nominal allies, you know, collecting on our sensitive sites or doing the same outside in the world, right?
[2:27:37] Um but to get towards the nuclear part, I think you know, there's there's the obvious of it's radioactive material. It's it's a in certain places it's configured in a way to be a weapon, right?
[2:27:50] Uh and the use of those weapons seems to interfere with the propulsion of these of these crafts. And maybe, you know, radiation is a hazard to us. It's probably a hazard to others as well, maybe in ways that we don't fully understand.
[2:28:06] Um there's also the the prospect of not the prospect of uh near certainty to me that at least when it comes to the state side things, national labs are where uh samples are stored of exotic technologies, uh if not the technologies themselves.
[2:28:25] It's where derivative tech is researched and tested. Um so there's another reason to collect on things or maybe even try to get your stuff back. Aaron Ross Powell Get your stuff back and monitor what's being done to your material that you've dropped off or something.
[2:28:39] Yeah. And then last there's the there's the humid factor. Um again, staying stateside like program lore, uh tied into paperclip in this case. Um a lot of the Nazi scientists brought over.
[2:28:52] You know, they ended up all across the state, but there's largely two groupings. The the Nazis and name only were kind of settled around Redstone Arsenal. And then the the true believers.
[2:29:02] That's in Huntsville, Alabama. Yes. And then the true believers were uh in Los Alamos. So if there is indeed a genetics component to this and durational contact with people, uh for whatever reason, you might be seeing uh contact events occurring in these areas, and this they're just proximal to very sensitive facilities.
[2:29:21] But because the personnel uh are connected to the phenomena, you're you're you're you're getting these events for reasons other than the nuclear material or the technology. Aaron Powell How would you distinguish those?
[2:29:32] So the true believers versus the what would you call the redstone arsenal? Nazis and name only, you know, people who you know took on took party membership to maintain their careers, to advance in their careers, but you know, they didn't believe in the underlying ideology or they only paid, you know, lip service to it.
[2:29:51] Got it. So i even when it comes to the US, you mean from Operation Paperclip bringing over these people from Europe, not all of them German technically, you know.
[2:30:01] Yeah, and there were even reports after bringing some of them over that they were sort of sp spying on behalf of international conglomerates and stuff. Obviously Otto Scorzani was president, I think, of this World Commerce Corporation that uh, you know, uh Tom DeLong writes about in Secret Machines, there's some sort of Nazi connection.
[2:30:20] And it seems like there's this international group that he writes about pseudonymously calls it the Maynard Corporation. And this great researcher Jason Somosa places the Maynard corporation and you're actually, you show up in this video because he he thinks that your testimony sort of dovetails with it.
[2:30:36] This issue is held by an illegal internationalist regime and global cabal. That's what former State Department and counterproliferation analyst Matthew Brown revealed when he came out last year. He places that in the World Commerce Corporation, which is this Caribbean constellation of shell sort of companies often you know it's led by sort of former Nazis, Bank of England, you know, Bank of International Settlements type kind of you know old money and and and a lot of which is derived from OSS Office of Strategic Services as well.
[2:31:11] So there's sort of this like international Intel group that uh seems to sort of guard its interests and be tied in with the UFO issue. Aaron Ross Powell I think it's it's definitely involved.
[2:31:24] I mean it outside of the UFO issue, it's provable if dark historic facts that you know the Nazi intelligence networks and industrial networks did not really evaporate after World War II.
[2:31:37] They uh pursued their interests elsewhere and moved their interests elsewhere to places like South America, uh the United States itself. Um and strangely enough there appears to be some collaboration with the State of Israel and former Nazis, which go figure that bizarre.
[2:31:56] But hey, you know, people forget that you know uh whether it's polite to say or not, uh the the Hitler regime did lend support to the uh at that time the sort of Zionist movement to uh take Israel away from the British crown.
[2:32:16] Um you know you can get into the deep history of their links with um the different revolutionary groups doing that at the time and arming them. Um I didn't know that wait they they were what exactly were they supportive of the Nazi regime?
[2:32:30] They were supportive of various Zionist revolutionary groups including some that basically became the the formal intelligence service of Israel uh by things like you know both propaganda support but but in concrete terms providing them you know arms and training in arms and intelligence.
[2:32:47] Former Nazis or like Hitler? This this was during the reign of Hitler and then you when you look at like how Israel used former Nazis after the war, well that was developed from established relationships, right?
[2:32:58] It wasn't like uh they just happened to go to Israel and think, well maybe this will work. It's like no, they knew people um from before the war and and during it.
[2:33:08] I didn't know that. Yeah there's there's a famous story of uh of kind of Nazi on Nazi action where Israel was assassinating Nazi sci rocket scientists in Egypt that were developing you know rocket weapons for the Egyptian military, but leveraging you know the Gellen organization I think Reinhardt Gellen, yeah.
[2:33:28] Yeah, to to kind of collect on them and facilitate uh what essentially became an assassination campaign of those I know I know about all that stuff after the war in Otto Skorzini and Reinhardt Gellin.
[2:33:38] And then I would never associate Hitler with any supportive Jewish stuff but may maybe there's something you know it's a it's a kind of suppressed aspect of history. You know one thing that Hitler did in from like sort of the information warfare space was try to encourage mass migration of of the Jewish population in Europe to uh Israel, which again at the time was a British protectorate um and in you know that that actually caused a lot of problems for Britain.
[2:34:08] So if you're looking at it from an asymmetric warfare perspective you're you're essentially weaponizing migration. Interesting. Okay so they were way off field now but the what up the point we're getting at is uh that Nazis had a global network.
[2:34:21] It didn't go anywhere after World War II. Um they certainly brought out a lot of assets yeah uh including you know weapons scientists and probably some pretty uh advanced technology um so I I I lend a lot of credence.
[2:34:36] I need to see this uh video it sounds informative. Aaron Powell Speaking of international cabals dealing with the UFO issue do you think that NATO has anything to do with UFOs or maybe a a vital subset of NATO?
[2:34:51] Yeah I I don't have any direct information on that but I mean you'd have to um especially when you're talking about you know monitoring the the the global commons and our strategic deterrence and the deconfliction as we already know established between the United States and the Soviet Union on UFOs.
[2:35:09] Um while you know we're integrated with the European militaries, they have their roles, their own detection systems, some of them are nuclear powers yeah there there has to be collaboration through NATO you've said that you think science is managed and scientific innovation doesn't occur in maybe as organic a way as what people sort of think what or what exactly do you mean yeah uh specifically I don't know about like the development of it.
[2:35:42] I mean well you can think through it and and realize that you know some discoveries probably have their origin less in original thinking and more of study of recovered um technology or or some sort of you know uh reason to believe something is possible, right?
[2:35:57] Once you know something's possible you can align yourself towards achieving it much easier than searching in the unknown. But what I'm getting at more specifically is is actual domains of knowledge that are suppressed intentionally and are done that suppression occurs durationally both from like a you know a funding standpoint to a brain drain kind of component to actual injection of uh disinformation or actions taken against independent researchers.
[2:36:29] And I've very high confidence that that occurs in at least a few areas. So do you think there's a like a history of scientific suppression where when certain you know unlocks occur, say in energy or propulsion that's sort of widely monitored and if that's at all a threat to kind of cartel interests whose power is based on scarcity, they sort of intervene or what what exactly I think that probably happened more in the past but because sort of science has become so integrated with the state, you know you can kind of you don't have to use such blunt tools as that now you can just you know align incentives based on where you where you give grants and funding.
[2:37:18] And then you have the self reinforcing mechanism of the the culture within academia which is like these areas of knowledge have long been disproven. So you know half the half of the researchers are just never going to look there because that's what they've been taught throughout their education at this point.
[2:37:34] And I think we're at we're kind of in the you know the the product of decades of suppression and that the more blunt tools are used less now because it is it is essentially functioning as as intended.
[2:37:51] You mentioned One Nation under blackmail by Whitney Webb uh you know Robert Maxwell who was, you know, uh the father of Ghlaine Maxwell and you know obviously Jeffrey Jeffrey Epstein's I don't know godfather or something you know the the you know obviously his closest confidant was Ghlaine.
[2:38:08] Um it I guess he he seemed sort of really interested in science in a way that like he I he interviewed Nazis after Nazi scientists after World War II and then he he came to own the Pergamon press you know this which produced all these like American textbooks and kind of helped invent peer review in the United States.
[2:38:28] So it's almost like he's providing the guardrails for scientific discovery in the US and then you have uh Jeffrey Epstein selling uh Sandia National Labs the promise software which siphons systematically siphons American nuclear secrets and then you have him bragging in an email saying I killed Pons years ago.
[2:38:46] Mm-hmm Pons is of course Pons and Fleischman of Cold Fusion fame. These Utah based scientists who came to get claim to get kind of you know uh controlled fusion kind of over unity results um which you know would be this massive unlock you know that would uh move us out of this sort of you know uh petroleum paradigm.
[2:39:07] So what what what do you think is going on? Aaron Ross Powell So in with that example, you know I have less uh concrete knowledge but it seems very plausible or indeed provable that at the very least what was going on there is collection of scientific discoveries um just a as a function of Robert Maxwell's role as an intelligent as an intelligence asset for Israel, if not more than more than just that state.
[2:39:35] And then you know MI6 too maybe there you go. Yeah they all start to kind of blend together uh at cer at high enough levels. Um yeah so the collection of scientific discoveries and then the the management of where those discoveries are taken based on either establishing congenial social and business relationships and then having the the blackmail the the stick as it were to to uh compel people to change their mind if they don't make the the obvious or desirable choice.
[2:40:05] Do you think that the Epstein and UFO stories converge? Because often you see in the podcast space, especially with these Department of War UFO drops, which might be cynically motivated if we're being honest with ourselves, you see a lot of people being like Yeah, show me the Epstein files.
[2:40:21] I don't care. Aliens are a distraction. My answer to that is those two things aren't necessarily zero sum. They don't trade off against each other. They have nothing to do with each other.
[2:40:31] So yeah it might be some hypnotic magic trick like look at the aliens like we have don't forget about Iran forget about Epstein or something like that. You know, if you believe or disbelieve in the UFO thing that should be totally independent of you know the Epstein thing.
[2:40:43] And then the meta question is do they converge on some level? Yeah. So what do you think? So number one, um people have a have a self have an inflated sense of self worth when it comes to distraction.
[2:40:58] You already distract yourselves. Organizing national scandals on this level just to divert your attention from the real thing is is frankly kind of silly. And as we see with the UFO topic as well, what would you even do with the information, right?
[2:41:16] This is largely entertainment and spectacle for people, frankly the Epstein files were too there was no mass protest, mass demand for civil change like you would expect from crimes like that.
[2:41:30] You're distracted already and you're frankly you know doing it to yourself. The government doesn't need to come in and tip the scales so you don't pay attention to what truly matters.
[2:41:41] You'll take no action anyways. Now where do they converge? I think on you know we we touched on the scientific aspect there might be some degree of the suppression arm there.
[2:41:56] I don't know enough about you know kind of the inner workings of of what their our activities were to say that.
[2:42:08] Probably in the files there there was an interest in people with psi or empathy or consciousness abilities by the Epstein network for reasons that are kind of opaque, at least in the files released, but stepping outside of just that uh scandal and into the larger question of like experiencers, abductees, and and their sort of accounts of um being trained in sci abilities, right?
[2:42:38] Or interacting with beings uh through uh modes of consciousness that are you know exotic to the the the everyday I think they were interested in those people both to you know make use of those abilities, uh probably unwittingly.
[2:42:57] You know, if you can uh have civilians remote view targets for you that are of military interest, but you never disclose your military affiliation, you can sidestep a lot of the problems that were with the Stargate program, which was like you know bringing these people in officially putting them on payroll, having the whole security apparatus around making people sure those people don't talk and making sure it's deniable versus if you use unwitting assets and expendable ones then you can you can theoretically engage in that sort of intelligence collection in a in a more deniable means and process possibly cheaper too.
[2:43:33] You don't have to pay these people they just are excited to feel special and if they are in involved or in sorry entrapped in a human trafficking network, well then they are under your power anyways.
[2:43:46] Dark stuff, I think do you think the UFO legacy program engages in human trafficking of psionic assets, people from third world countries often who, you know sometimes from disaster zones that could go missing, who uh can call in craft or unlock the craft through sort of a psychic mind meld with it or anything like that?
[2:44:11] Aaron Ross Powell I've only heard those allegations so I I can't support them. But provably the US government and other governments are interested in people with these capabilities for for decades using them on the inside as well as interested in just civilians uh demonstrating these abilities.
[2:44:30] So I I would not be surprised but the whole um legacy program engages in human trafficking I have no evidence for that um maybe I think it's just to speculate private interests probably do.
[2:44:45] Um somebody told Matt Gates that that happens obviously Jake Barber's testimony uh essentially amounts to that and then Michael Herrera's as well that you know he was in Indonesia he sees this kind of ache gone craft I estimated that this thing was probably about 300 feet and when we end up getting into this clearing is basically when we were intercepted by this force.
[2:45:07] This clearing was pretty big but this craft was enormous. But you could tell by their dialects that they were American you can tell by their facial expressions that they were you know they were serious people.
[2:45:16] At the time he doesn't know what it's transporting now he thinks it was transporting human cargo and so they were rounding up people from this disaster zone in Indonesia presumably to take them to some sort of range maybe so that they could they call them P3s uh people with uh psionic predisposition potentials and they act as the bridge so there's like somebody who's this is so dystopian and crazy but it's this person is used to summon the craft lock onto the craft they're so dissociated that their neural pathways through an EEG monitor are being they're being used like a joystick by somebody you know in the Air Force or you know in who's probably been sheep dipped or whatever and is working for one of these contractors.
[2:46:06] And that's how these crafts are lured in and then they're shot with directed energy and retrieved. It sounds nutty but do you think there's anything there?
[2:46:22] I think Jake Barber wrote a book called Sentinels of Ether and he came out with the first chapter of the book and it was twenty pages. Seven pages of that book were was redacted by subject matter experts for some reason.
[2:46:39] And that's what the book's about so I f I find that somewhat compelling. Yeah yeah it's just I'm I'm sorry it's just a dark topic. Once you get it's totally dark.
[2:46:49] Once you get to the human aspect of disclosure it's it's gets really ugly really fast and it's hard to not have some sort of emotional reaction to it, especially when you it's insane.
[2:47:00] And the the the to get even darker these P3 assets psionic assets they're called pink assets because they're seen as sort of human meat or something like they're just being used to call in these crafts like they're they're they're just you know disposable instrumentation when they're people.
[2:47:21] They're human beings. So my qu my immediate questions with that is like what is the the like the rate of shootdown events that you need a constant supply of of of of psi assets and also why do you need a constant supply?
[2:47:38] Why can't you reuse them? What's happening to them? But let's just take aside the shoot down equation w and speculate well what if you know some of the technologies that we've recovered require interface through through consciousness sort of means or psi means to to operate well there's a reason to acquire people and also to keep them you know very much under control because they're essentially like the key that opens your magic tool and you you don't want that key walking out the door and denying your ability to use that tool.
[2:48:13] There's also the possibility that some of these things just speculating again might be gated through genetics so only certain genetic lineages are able to interface with certain devices and that that's you know one of the criteria for making someone desirable to to a human trafficking network um that feeds people into the pipeline.
[2:48:36] But you get I keep I cannot shake the suspicion that there is some sort of deleterious effect on these people if this is true. Yeah. It necessitates a constant influx of fresh blood as it were.
[2:48:52] No that's why I think that's why they're called pink acids. They get this thing called sundowner syndrome. They get dissociated. They have no idea where they are you know and w what they're doing and and and they their bodies start to break down.
[2:49:04] I don't think they're you know I I think it would be put putting lipstick on a pig to say that they're you know fired up to be doing what they're doing.
[2:49:13] But I also you know again this is like N of one N of two N of three sort of stories and so I I'm trying to piece it together.
[2:49:21] I don't fully know how widespread this is I don't know if that is how the UFO legacy program works. It seems like that and some Navy archaeological find on the seafloor seem like two qualitatively different things to me.
[2:49:35] Um but I don't know yeah I think the human factor end of the day is is is where the conversation needs to go next what is their interest in us um why care why would the government go to such lengths to find people with these skills um especially in in a deniable way from disaster zones i mean that seems like an extraordinary level of effort um yeah yeah well I mean you've talked about it with your interest in abramellan and hinted at certain sort of Gnostic concepts at the very least even if you wouldn't describe yourself at all as kind of a Gnostic and there are traditions of you know kind of neo neoplatonic and Gnostic traditions of theurgy of co-creating with the with the creator and you sort of their levels to this sort of thing and it feels like uh the legacy program at least if the if this is how it works somewhat is almost trying to speed run what is like a hermetic Kabbalistic process, which should never be done if you actually read like, you know, if Peter Levenda is a great person who writes about this.
[2:50:45] He has a great uh book called Stairway to Heaven and it's all about these you know celestial ascent practic practices across different traditions. And you're never supposed to you have to be of a certain age a certain purity of intent and all of that seems to be ignored in in in these cases.
[2:51:02] It's like you're systematizing it, you're attempting to scale it and you're instrumentalizing the stuff you get back through in the form of weapons technology. That doesn't seem like a very good idea.
[2:51:14] No and again what why is there such a seemingly high burn rate? Um and and where are these people in society? I mean maybe some of them are on the streets and just nobody listens to them because they're functionally like insane and so maybe they are out there or do they just not get out?
[2:51:36] I mean that that's the other question is like also how how many crafts come down due to their efforts? Because it can't be perfectly repeatable. It's gotta be a like there you would think an advanced system would learn that the TTP is involved in luring the tech down and oh uh adjust.
[2:51:53] I think so too. And also I just I fail to believe and I'm sorry for anybody who vehemently disagrees, but I don't think we have thousands of these things.
[2:52:02] We just it just doesn't seem possible. No. You know you don't have something that that's that's that widespread that could be you know some somewhat democratized through some psychic means and directed energy or whatever.
[2:52:13] You know, maybe the directed energy part's a little more you know behind the Iron Curtain, but like that just doesn't make sense to me. And then why would that I don't know it doesn't make sense.
[2:52:24] It doesn't make sense I wonder if this story of using psionics or empaths or humans as bait for shootdowns is is in fact cover for a real agenda and for sorry for a a deeper agenda or a truer agenda.
[2:52:43] And that might have something to do with breeding and that these are essentially brought in as breeding stock. They have the genetic potential and you can essentially through successive generations of breeding concentrate that potential and maybe once a certain amount of births are given, you know, a person's no longer needed and in fact they aren't really the asset.
[2:53:14] It's going to be three or four generations of breeding down the line where you have some sort of super psychic child. Whoa so it's sort of like forced selection natural selection it's a speed up of natural selection where you would isolate all the attributes around psychic predisposition.
[2:53:34] So maybe it's the caudate and potamin and the basal ganglia which Gary Nolan talks about which runs in families that you know if you're more neuronally dense there you're more likely to have UFO interactions.
[2:53:50] Yeah that they're basically smarter. And what's fascinating is it runs in families. In things like that you know uh RH negative blood or whatever and then you're you're breeding over many generations the shoot down thing doesn't make sense to me.
[2:54:06] I mean maybe on a very limited basis but again this is advanced technology. That's new learn um it makes more sense as a cover based on people I know and their interactions with some questionable groups out there it seems like they're more interested in females uh humans are more interested in the females than the males which makes sense if this is more of a breeding focus.
[2:54:31] Um yeah it it doesn't the mind doesn't go to many good places. Um but I think we have to starting these questions and also start looking at you know who are the bad actors in in our communities that are exploiting our sisters?
[2:54:50] Um who is not who they say they are or doing things that are are questionable and demands secrecy from you in exchange for your you know free trip to somewhere or your participation in some exciting uh UFO call down event.
[2:55:10] Are they are the are they who they say they are and are they doing it for what they say they are you know I think the UFO community has a durational penetration by our intelligence services and at this point I would argue organized criminal enterprises.
[2:55:30] Um it's not I don't think it's very safe for people that would describe themselves as empaths right now. Yeah. It feels like they're uh being tracked or something and uh yeah yeah it's a weird weird phenomenon.
[2:55:46] Um well uh yeah I don't know I don't know I don't know where to go from there. Um you said that humans are a resource presumably to the beings, to these non human intelligences and you've hinted at the fact that life is precious and unique and that's why they're here.
[2:56:04] What does that mean? Are we like are we like gas or petroleum or you know some sort of rare earth mineral to them or like what how does how does that work in your mind?
[2:56:14] Yeah it's multi layered and you know there's some things I have more confidence on than others. I think with a certain degree of confidence that human potential is part of what their interest is uh uh the psychic potential potentially and our uh and our technological development and what we could become in the future whether that's like a a subservient race, a proxy race, um, or you know something maybe less uh less cooperative than than those options.
[2:56:51] I don't know. But um the human factor seems central to all of this. Um it in my mind it's it is the key. Once we discover it we will explain a lot of the behavior of the others.
[2:57:04] Uh also I mean I mentioned you know like entertainment well I mean like if some of these things are are humanoid, then there's, you know, various unpleasant ways you can take that line of thought.
[2:57:17] But again if humans do it why not other sentient beings? There's also the the consciousness aspect and in that sense you know if consciousness is non-local there might be, you know, the the possibility of of humans being essentially vehicles or shells or temporary experiences for these these things where they're able to ride along with us and experience life on earth that way.
[2:57:49] If I'm watching this, I'm like this is all fascinating but this sort of analytical you know figuring out of what's going on could be done theoretically by an open source scientist.
[2:58:03] How much of what you're saying right now is informed by things you feel like you know because you've seen documentation? Yeah, good question so my advantage is less that I've been briefed into legacy program uh capabilities or activities and it's more so that by virtue of my role and my level of interest in that role and its access, you know I was afforded a a great deal of of knowledge on frontier sciences and the transmutation of those scientific discoveries into capabilities that we use outside of the UFO subjects.
[2:58:43] So I have a very uh not a very I have a I think a very uh good foundation of what is possible and what is currently being done and what is like the next two steps ahead in our discoveries in the nonpublic realm that then I can turn to the phenomena that we're looking at here and say, okay, what could enable what we're seeing here, right?
[2:59:07] If w humans are making these discoveries, where does that lead, you know, four or five generations down the line?
[2:59:16] So in some sense it's it is yeah it is my own thinking it is my own analysis take it or leave it. Um but it is it is coming from a place of I think unique information at least in the public world.
[2:59:28] Of course people on the inside know more than me but they're not talking to you. If you feel like you have an understanding of what's around the corner scientifically are there any areas that you think we could uh have like kind of a stepwise update huge leap in capabilities or where the scientific consensus is actually way off in our current model of reality or current current technology.
[2:59:55] So my disadvantage is that I'm not a trained scientist. In fact uh pretty far from that I'm focused on or I what I was involved in this stuff was focused on fact of and how it is applied, less of how it was learned or the language used to describe it in a technical sense.
[3:00:13] But where where are we going? I mean I don't want to get myself in jail. Yeah sure sure but I think you know what we're talking on with consciousness being integrated with technology is a major area for uh changing the human experience and in fact I think is a you know if if is it is an opportunity to play catch up as it were in the in the public world versus the black.
[3:00:40] Um n less surprising is is is energy production. I I think uh especially when it comes to you've talked on it um you've touched on it with Kirk McConnell when he was on here extended electrodynamics.
[3:00:59] Yeah I was gonna bring that up yeah and uh think you know it's no accident Kirk came to this show first and no action no accident he brought that up.
[3:01:06] And so is the human brain wired in such a way architected in such a way that it uh that it can uh function in these uh quantum mechanical ways and in terms of uh of modern um extended electrodynamics.
[3:01:27] He's deep so he's Senate Armed Services Committee and he was under Jack Reed um the senator from Rhode Island and he knows all about extended electrodynamics which is this idea that you know so you in classical electrodynamics you have uh typical transverse Hertzene electromagnetic wave.
[3:01:43] So you have um the electric field, the magnetic field and wave propagation all running perpendicular to each other and it's limited it moves at one over r squared and it decays and attenuates and um it decays and attenuates faster under C because of the existence of the magnetic field.
[3:01:59] The electrons pair off um very quickly because of the salt water for example. And so there's a lot of talk around this idea of extended electrodynamics where you have a wave that could attenuate at one over R, and you'd have uh electric field, a magnetic field maybe running parallel maybe you wouldn't have a magnetic field, maybe you wouldn't have an electric field, or you'd have an electric field running parallel to wave propagation or a magnetic field running parallel to the wave propagation.
[3:02:28] And you could transmit signals through deep space and through you know underwater and you know under sea you know even salt water and it would you know be near instantaneous I think this is also called like scalar longitudinal waves or something like that.
[3:02:46] Or that's an application of that theory. Again, I'm out of depth when it comes to technical language but yes um the transmission of energy and through at least space um instantaneously seems to be where that leads.
[3:03:01] And also the extraction of energy it's a reversible process as well, which is really fascinating and potentially very, very dangerous. My understanding is that the Russians I think are are also um you know have a very well versed in this.
[3:03:16] So seems to be the case. Um you know people dismiss Thomas Beardon I mean whatever he's a let's just say it's true he's a limited hangout mixed with disinformation.
[3:03:26] You're covering up a core truth though um which is that this is an area of physics that does have applications uh to security um but those same applications are potentially, you know, world changing in terms of certainly power transmission, especially if you can connect this uh way of transmitting or extracting power with a novel energy source that is potentially limited only based on its, you know, your ability to extract energy, right?
[3:04:03] Very powerful economically. Thomas Beardin was this Navy guy who constantly yeah talked about sort of scalar weaponry. He said that the Soviets sort of figured out this massive death ray sort of thing and I I mean maybe it was a limited hangout, but the limited hangout around Maxwell's equations comes up so much that there has to be there's when there's smoke, there's fire.
[3:04:29] Yes. There has to be something around a change in the math of Maxwell's equations or maybe being going back to Maxwell's equations which were actually condensed into heavy sides for vector calculus simplified equations.
[3:04:42] There's something there. The crossover to sort of what you're talking about, which is like the latent potential in just the vacuum or the void again is it where there's smoke there fire kind of situation.
[3:04:57] So like a zero point energy sort of thing. Basically yeah I think um we're we're we're circling quantum vacuum fluctuations that you can harness that might be it. Yeah um again only concerned with the fact of when I was sure learning these things.
[3:05:14] Yeah yeah yeah um anything that you know the other thing I find interesting is like spin orbit coupling of uh like you have these what are called topological insulators.
[3:05:24] Do you know anything about that? No, I don't or plasma stuff. Like topological insulators are like uh you know like when you get into like very high up in the periodic table, like very heavy elements um few of them are stable but take one like B Bismuth, I think, which I think comes up a lot in sort of UFO lore.
[3:05:44] Bismuth's very strange and uh you end up in this thing it's called the you know it's the relativistic par paradigm where uh when it's infused with energy uh you end up with this repellent magnetic force instead of an inward retra uh attracting uh magnetic force so it's almost like a Meisner effect like it's like an anti gravitational push off on anything trying to sort of touch it.
[3:06:08] And um I think there's something around that that seems really consequential as well because it dovetails with the Lazar stuff and yeah the brown stuff but we can what would you what would be the utility of that, I wonder is it levitation as like an inherent property of an object that is if you could push off on the magnetic field of the earth that would be really cool.
[3:06:34] Got it okay yeah see that seems to be one of the modes of propulsion. You know I don't know the mechanisms behind it but uh that at that high level is something I've heard.
[3:06:46] Um you know whether that gets you out of the gravitational well of the earth, I don't know. But how far do you think we've gotten in reverse engineering these things?
[3:06:58] Hmm I think enough to have propulsion um and beamed power so that you don't necessarily have to have an onboard power source for these devices um especially if you're able to do lossless or near lossless power beaming you can do some pretty incredible things in relatively small form factors.
[3:07:20] And if you're able to you know put your power beaming system in orbit, then you're able to essentially have global coverage and potentially you know have indefinite duration surveillance or operations staged in the atmosphere or exoatmosphere.
[3:07:39] How high confidence are you that some come from outer space into our atmosphere? Oh I mean certainty. Certainty yeah um yeah definitely I mean again whether that means they're interstellar or interplanetary that that doesn't prove that but able to come in and out of our atmosphere.
[3:07:58] And that's from stuff you've seen on the inside. Yes, and then also like you know other people's testimony as well. I mean we're uh if this was any other subject the amount of uh witness testimony from people with placement and access would be overwhelming a hundred percent no I always say that I agree with that um where do you draw the line on what you can and can't say some I mean largely based on the Department of State cleared report and then inference is drawn from that report.
[3:08:32] So if I was to talk about something that I don't have a clear basis to draw that inference from but that inference is classified in other sense I feel like I'm on shaky ground.
[3:08:46] Uh to put it simply it it seems like I'm more okay so far saying what I think and less of why I think it.
[3:09:53] You've had your house continuing broken into yeah that's a that's a well known one and it's mentioned the most because there's a you know someday they can go get the police record for it, called them, had them visit and all that.
[3:10:06] It's just, you know, what's the point? Um the police were just as confused as I was about the whole thing, which is, you know, nothing of value was taken except for yeah, nothing of value was taken.
[3:10:16] The only thing that was like totally removed from the premise and never recovered was my civilian passport. My grandfather's ashes were put out in the in the in the in the alley behind our house by the garbage.
[3:10:31] And you know my wife's documents were laid out in a way that clearly looked like you know someone was lined them up in a row, take a f taking a photo of them and leaving them out there for us to find.
[3:10:41] They took your passport, lined up your wife's documents showing that they were sort of combing them over and then that's so disrespectful, man. They took her grandfather's ashes and they put them behind the alley.
[3:10:54] Yeah, yeah. And uh you know it all happened when we were there asleep. The only sign of entry was a very small basement window that was forced open and like I I fail to see how a an adult male can get in there.
[3:11:08] So it was more likely that that was just done intentionally to to demonstrate you know something had happened. They probably just came through my front door, picked the lock and you know walked in.
[3:11:17] I think there's like an old Stossy method of like it's yeah I think it's called like move the furniture around where it's just they show you that they can they can touch you and it's just a lot like at this point I'm people either either believe me or don't so it's less uh costly to talk about things.
[3:11:43] But I mean there's been other instances of of um you know either people demonstrating that they can reach out and touch me at any time or incidentally just detecting some sort of surveillance or uh similar kind of operation being conducted.
[3:12:05] Yeah. You said that um Office of special investigations in the Air Force is actively messing with UFO whistleblowers and uh their families and stuff as well and and getting into their private lives.
[3:12:20] Is that is that right? Yeah we got I mean that's that wasn't my experience but that was that is someone's experience in this world. They're not public. Um but and there but there was proof in this case of it being an AFO SI officer.
[3:12:36] Um you know there's no protections for whistleblowers there's no witness protection program for Congress we're out here on our own um uh you know I've had instances that feel like foreign intelligence trying to penetrate my network and extract information um and also deliver threats.
[3:13:04] Um that's certainly very concerning to me both from you know I'm an American patriot I don't want national secrets being extracted from me for foreign competitors gain but then also concerning which is that in the world of intelligence, you know, using third parties to take care of your your uh your dirty dishes, take out your trash is is is something that's done because then it's deniable, right?
[3:13:28] It's not US assets uh removing a person, it's foreign assets um so very uncomfortable that's super uncomfortable uh how has all of this affected you emotionally and do you ever regret coming out I mean I feel like I'm doing okay now but for a long time is very stressful and you know you get to a point where you're hyper vigilant and then you know you're responding to things that aren't uh a threat in a in a in a way that doesn't match like the gravity of what's going on.
[3:14:05] So you know that's not good for anyone involved. Anybody deep into UFOs has been there. Yeah. It's not not a not a healthy lifestyle by any means. Um do I regret coming forward?
[3:14:24] I mean on a personal level yes it's it's done nothing good for me or my wife or or my friends and family um there's been no meaningful reform there's been no official disclosure there's been no justice for anyone whether myself other whistleblowers or the people uh involved in legacy program or they're the victims of associated activities um people get entertainment out of this they get their curiosity satisfied to a certain degree um they get to mock and laugh if they don't believe so on a personal level yeah I have a lot of regrets it's uh there's been zero benefit only downsides uh and people that uh people in my life have been hurt just because of you know virtue of association with me.
[3:15:15] Um but on from a civic duty perspective from a moral duty perspective from a you know what is good for humanity perspective, no, I don't have regrets. It needed to be done.
[3:15:26] Um I just hope that you know eventually it leads to meaningful change. What do you wake up every morning now feeling now that you're on the outside so nothing very dramatic.
[3:15:46] I'm more I've tried to focus more on my you know physical, spiritual and emotional health uh focus more on being a good husband, a good brother, good friend. So what am I thinking about it's how to do those things each day.
[3:16:01] Um and you know disclosure is kind of uh it's always in the background it's never going anywhere um but it's uh it's not the first thing I think about anymore.
[3:16:14] So that's healthy. Speaking of whistleblower protections you have this very cool new initiative maybe put your leg down so I can see your shirt. There we go. What does that say?
[3:16:25] Vanguard yes what is Vanguard? So this is a Vanguard and Vanguard Enterprise Vanguard for short it's a uh nonprofit that uh Dylan Borland and myself have started and uh Jeffrey Nussatelli has now joined.
[3:16:40] It's basic, it's pretty simple it's an organization, a charity to support and empower UAP whistleblowers from the national security enterprise helping them with their legal, financial slash career transition, medical, psychological and community needs.
[3:16:57] We're very much in early days on that uh you know we have a short list of people we know need help and we, you know uh need to raise the resources to to fulfill on delivering those those those forms of assistance.
[3:17:13] But you know it's been encouraging some yeah it's been encouraging to see some serious community support and hope to build off of that and uh try to try to help people because the government isn't that's beautiful man and where can people donate?
[3:17:29] You can find our website uh vanguardenterprise.org there's a link uh to support uh we use a platform called give butter it's only for nonprofits so every donation you made through there you automatically get an email and you can you know use that uh to to claim any taxes as a charitable donation swing what's that trippy pyramid floating around above earth and then you have the upside down triangle it's a very interesting logo.
[3:17:55] Yeah we spent a lot of time on it um had a we have a great team of volunteers that have been helping us for for a while now and and this is one of one of their products um you know there's there's various ways the symbolism can be interpreted but uh where we started with was the World War II V for victory.
[3:18:18] And that's kind of where we based the shape on and then from there kind of got this evocative motif going. Very cool. Anything else we missed or um probably can't go into it too much, but I would just also add that another area of science and technology that people should be aware of is is advancing or has advanced quite rapidly is in the biotechnology realm.
[3:18:46] And that definitely overlays with the phenomena that we're talking about. And it is currently one of the the most unrecognized I guess trends that's gonna that is in the process of changing our environment.
[3:19:04] What sort of biotech? Genetic editing I mean definitely when it comes to you know uh constructing or or or changing the human genome for specific purposes but things like s entirely synthetic biological constructs and then the interplay between directed energy and synthetic or modified biology.
[3:19:28] Well there's some very um important things that people should start pulling the thread on in those areas. And that this again gets back to consciousness and and and how it is manipulated through both natural means and increasingly technological means.
[3:19:44] So like psychotronic weaponry? So I've only heard that term on the outside but I mean yes I think we eventually get there. I think that's more of specifically a directed energy application.
[3:19:59] But can you cause somebody to hear or see something through directed energy? Definitely hear. Yeah. Um I you know directed energy is a very broad uh category. I have very good reason to believe that, you know, essentially our mind is no longer sovereign.
[3:20:22] Uh it can be interfaced with through uh remote means as well as you know direct, you know, kind of uh devices, right? Even our dreams are now subject to technological manipulation.
[3:20:35] This isn't even classified knowledge um at least anymore. You can look at s technical applications from MIT itself relating to dream implantation, um including at a distance. Whoa. So you know And do you think ideas can be implanted in somebody's waking life?
[3:20:53] Yes. That's freaky it is in your high confidence. I'm certain. That's insane. Mm-hmm. Yeah that's it's interesting I um interviewed this guy Dr. Colin Ross and he wrote a book called CIA Doctors and it's all the you know whole MKUltra thing and how all these psychiatrists were distributed across the United States often at you know elite universities.
[3:21:15] And like Jolly West for example was like head of UCLA psychiatry for a very long time he's talking with Sidney Gottley back and forth. He's probably MK ultring you know Charles Manson like it's wild like the history of our country and it's interesting he wrote a follow up book on directed energy and electromagnetism in the body and so it's not even wacky at all to say that the electromagnetism has this fundamental influence on life.
[3:21:44] You know, there's a great professor named Michael Levin at Tufts and he talks about you know how morphology like basically the form that your body takes is more dictated by the local electromagnetic field than it is by DNA.
[3:21:59] And that in some ways that's the you know the DNA is providing the proteins which is the hardware but the software that's writing on top of it is electromagnetism.
[3:22:08] And if you put a frog embryo for example in a Faraday cage so you eliminate you know all electromagnetic interference it won't grow correctly and then if you put something next to something radioactive like you know in you know Chernobyl like you you know things get mutated or near the Fukushima disaster.
[3:22:26] You have two excess radiation or no radiation. If you eliminate the Schumann resonance, you know, even astronauts have issues with their bodies when they go into space. So there's something about electromagnetism and life and you know our cells communicate via voltage gated ion channels so they're you know it's it's very very fundamental fundamental.
[3:22:44] Yeah. And if you look at all the Havana syndrome directed energy stuff the person is being wholly destabilized by microwaves essentially I think this is another area where it's provably suppressed science the interaction between the human body and uh our nervous system, our organs.
[3:23:05] But you think we can semantic content can be relayed into somebody's like I know it can. Oh my God. And and this isn't even like a natural like a woo uh or psychic thing that through artificial means, ideas can be implanted or transferred or played in the in the human mind um in multiple ways actually you know uh the most crude of which you could call like the voice to skull technology is I never saw that on the inside I know a different term, but that's the public one.
[3:23:38] There's those again public things which is like you know using a pulsed microwave to uh cavitate uh water and essentially generate sound or heat. Um and also interestingly enough light.
[3:23:54] Light is able to modulate DNA. You know biophysics as a field is is an area that has immense potential to change the human experience for both the better and the worst.
[3:24:06] And I think um unfortunately most of this research has been in the security intelligence and military realm so the applications are understandably focused on things not oriented towards human flourishing, more towards control and and such.
[3:24:22] Naturally I mean when you're a hammer everything looks like a nail and you're not going to be engaging in the research for the betterment of humanity, you're gonna be doing it for sort of destructive means.
[3:24:31] But it's so unfortunate when you end up with civil side science that's lagging, you know, all sorts of really exciting stuff behind the Iron Curtain and it's only being used for weapons we're still flying 747s from you know the 60s and we still use it's again it's it's not even crazy at all to say you know biochemistry is the only layer of with which we treat the body.
[3:24:57] And fundamental to biochemistry is physics, it's ac acoustics and and electromagnetism, all three of those things that's not that's passe to say it's conventional in science to say that.
[3:25:17] Of course we would and then where I'm both freaked out but also intrigued because I'm sure there are really positive applications of this is how the hell would you distill an electromagnetic signal into like semantic content and then transmit that into somebody's mind?
[3:25:34] Like that's you know that's the secret sauce. I wish I could give you that answer, but um I I actually suspect you know there there's there's enough leads in the open source or gray literature on this that you know uh motivated parties could could replicate that capability.
[3:25:51] Do you ever wonder if we're playing in sort of padded walls, like the whole UFO conversation is somewhat limited and it's limited by people who have capabilities on the level of you know being able to confine what we're thinking about and causing us to sort of chase our tail like often it feels like right when you're about to get smoking gun evidence, it goes missing.
[3:26:16] And I talked about this with Dylan, you know, uh Borland I was like do you think that the non human intelligence is involved in the cover up itself or something?
[3:26:27] And he was like yes yeah I for sure know that. My opinion? Yeah. Absolutely yes. Have you ever talked to anybody in a credible position in the government who seems to have hinted that humans aren't in charge?
[3:26:42] The ICIG did it with me personally. I I want to respect them. But the ICIG did it with me. So the intelligence community inspector general told you that humans are not in charge they extremely hinted at it yes.
[3:26:55] It's almost like a defining almost design feature of the entire UFO space is like you and Jacques Villet writes about this and he wrote about it 50 years ago.
[3:27:05] And I don't know if he's that much closer to the truth now than he is then after decades of studying this thing. You're in this construct there control mechanisms are being used to cause you to literally chase your tail and you are always on the verge of some smoking gun and it always slips through your fingers.
[3:27:23] Yeah I mean on on on one side of that is is I mean this is a heavily monitored community um so they know what we're talking about and once you know they detect that you know there might be an effort to try to actually get something you know they they already are well aware they can take that preemptive measure.
[3:27:45] But it makes sense though that you know the others or the the non human intelligences would, if as they seem to be, are invested in keeping us unaware of their presence uh that they would you know kind of prevent independent discovery outside of their controlled, you know, relationships with with human proxies.
[3:28:05] I believe Dylan I also believe that what that points at is is collaboration between us and and uh some sort of third third party um most likely in my mind we're the juniors in that partnership.
[3:28:19] Yeah makes sense well on that note Matthew Brown thank you so much for coming this has been a long time coming this is a lot of fun and uh yeah I just uh I don't know I hope that please donate to Vanguard check out the website what's the website vanguardenterprise.org okay check that out donate please give whatever you have and um yeah I really appreciate you coming thank you Jesse this was a quite a pleasure like you said long time coming I'm I'm really happy to to finally have the chance to do this so thank you yeah wide ranging discussion awesome
Backlinks (4)
- https://ufopedia.fyi/query/2026-08-30-how-matthew-brown-learned-legacy-program-oral-tradition/
- https://ufopedia.fyi/query/2026-08-30-matthew-brown-firsthand-claim-expansion/
- https://ufopedia.fyi/query/2026-08-30-matthew-brown-frontier-science-classified-disclosure/
- https://ufopedia.fyi/source/matthew-brown/