Edwin C. May - Psychics in Space, Dream Telepathy and Remote Viewing Saturn | SRS #122

• Source URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0u0JqwQDJQ
• Channel: Shawn Ryan Show
• Host: Shawn Ryan
• Guest: Edwin C. May
• Published: 2024-07-22
• Duration: 3:37:33
• Date sourced: 2026-09-09
• Audio SHA-256: cf49cb166bb89a3aa4e405fe65a0df825cd9311b3ce2495b3b1b8f05fc45a4b0
• Transcription: FreeTranscribe.org production pipeline using NVIDIA Parakeet TDT 0.6B v3 revision 7c35754d166cca382ad1e53e68b01e7c575f3a1d with word timestamps and pyannote Community-1 speaker diarization
• Transcript SHA-256 before this provenance header: 7219f56f9cba0609679b10f4080d51945c34e0eeec2642325c978ecbd5a5e6f9
• Timestamp and diarization artifact: retained as /code/transcribe/edwin-may-shawn-ryan-2024-07-22.segments.json, SHA-256 8b480894df6bce0ef4d5755641fc7c0ff538bd2824bb8213420f7c23293ace2a
• Cross-check: YouTube's autogenerated English captions were compared at the passages used in the analysis
• Analysis: ../../sources/edwin-c-may and ../../queries/2026-09-04-who-was-vallees-gilbert

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TL;DW

May recounts his nuclear-physics career, leadership of the government remote-viewing research, selected laboratory and operational results, foreign programs, and speculative models involving target entropy and information traveling backward in time. His most consequential update is a direct withdrawal of his 1996 claim that the government review was structured to close Star Gate: later CIA releases convinced him that broader post-Cold-War budget cuts were the cause. He still presents target entropy as well established and cites repeat customers as evidence of operational value, while acknowledging that the proposed carrier and brain mechanism are unknown and may be wrong. During a personal anecdote at 42:00, he calls himself "not psychic at all," which weighs against identifying him with Vallée's reputedly exceptional remote viewer "Gilbert."

Transcript

Mr. Edwin C. May, welcome to the Sean Ryan Show. Well thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. Looking forward to it. Man, I have been looking forward to this interview for a long time.

Ever since you kind of popped up on my radar with uh Joe McMonagle, brought you up several times and his wife, Scooter, and uh eventually connected us, which I'm super thankful for.

And uh man, I'm just I'm just totally fascinated with this subject with remote viewing, ESP, Stargate. And uh so I just I want to say thank you so much for coming.

You're most welcome. It's it's a pleasure to find someone with the excitement that you already have for this discipline, because that's rare in this country for sure. Really? Yes.

I don't know. I think it's a growing subject again, then, because I see a lot of people that are interested in it. But um you probably have heard the phrase that it's the work of the devil.

I've heard that several times. Yeah. Just a brief anecdote on that. I had a contract for from the Air Force about one point five million dollars, and a nameless uh senior uh Air Force official said, That's the work of the devil, kill that program, and they took the money back.

Really? Yes. Didn't even want to look into it? No. Interesting. Yeah. Because we're not the only ones looking into this, from what I understand. The Russians are. Yeah. Who else is looking into this?

Actually, um, there was a Hungarian fiction writer by the name of Arthur Kursler. I don't know if you've ever heard of him or not. When he passed away, he bequeathed a huge sum of money to Edinburgh University in Scotland to do SI research.

And when they first started that, uh, they did a worldwide search to be who would be the first professor to occupy that chair, and an American won that search.

Bob Morris is his name. And he moved to Scotland, and uh everybody was nervous at the university about all this weird stuff. But he became head of the British Society of Psychology, not parapsychology.

He spawned about a hundred graduate students in PhDs in parapsychology, and then Edinburgh University wasn't, in fact, proud of this, and it was on the front page of their website.

So it's an amazing uh school in in Scotland today, even. How many governments are looking into this? Are you aware of the question? Um certainly the Russians are. Um Hung Hungarians are with uh not a lot of effort.

Uh there's a big effort going on in Brazil now and in the course uh uh Scotland and that's and most and Derby in the UK, a number of schools, uh um what is it at uh at Greenwich University?

There's a group doing work there. Who would you say is uh maybe on the forefront of this? Right now, beside our group, we mean uh seriously, the um I would say at Monroe University, they're doing very, very good work.

Monroe? Monroe Institute. Uh they don't do parapsychology research there. Who I'm I did I'm I miss I didn't hear what you said before. Uh at Edinburgh University, they have they're doing excellent work there.

Okay. Yeah. Okay. Well, I can't wait to dive in. It's um, like I said, I'm fascinated. So kind of how I want to do the interview is we actually we had spoken at breakfast about a a kind of an aptitude test.

Am I correct on that? That's a good way to word it, yeah. On if if if somebody may have capabilities. Call it remote viewing. Remote viewing. Yes. So it's an aptitude test for remote viewing.

So I think that would be a great way to kick off the interview. Okay. So we'll start there and then we'll get right into kind of how this popped up on your radar and how you eventually became sure the director of the Stargate program.

Which I d I gotta be honest, I can't even believe I'm sitting across from you right now. So um super fascinating. Well, thank you. And um, and uh, but you know, everybody gets a gift on the show.

I don't know if you if you knew that. I didn't know. But uh so there's yours. Oh boy, is it edible? It actually is edible. Go ahead, dive in there.

I was just being goofy about it. Go open it up. Oh, okay.

Little something for the ride home. Those are vigilance elite gummy bears. Oh my goodness. They're legal in all 50 states. Oh, too bad they're something for a ride. And they're uh made right here in the USA.

So fantastic. In Tennessee, I hope. Actually, they're made in Michigan. Okay. Hey, hey. But um Thank you. That's kind. You're welcome. So we'll kick it off with an introduction, and this might take me about 30 minutes to bend to get through because you have such an extensive background.

So go for it. Here we go. You hold a degree in experimental nuclear physics, the executive director of the Cognitive Science Laboratory, previously part of the ESP program at SRI International, that's Stanford Research Institute, spent 49 years studying psychic research.

You were the previous director of the U.S. government's program to apply ESP to matters of national security interest, also known as Stargate. In 1996, you founded Laboratories for Fundamental Research, which is still active today, the author of over 90 peer reviewed papers and over 300 technical reports.

You've given public talks about intelligence collection at the World War II famous site, Bletchley Park in the UK. Presided over 70% of the funding, $22 million, and 80% 85% of the data collection for the government's 22 year involvement into parapsychological research, accumulated over 12 years experience in experimental nuclear physics research, fluent in a variety of 3G and 4G computer languages, including F Fortran, IDL, Visual Basic, MATLAB, SQL, and various machine codes.

Traveled often to Moscow beginning in 1992 and has become friends with the US's former enemy, the KGB. I can't wait to dive into that. And your colleagues are physicalists.

That is, consciousness is an emergent property of the brain and does not survive death. What am I missing? No, not a thing. Well, one issue how Stargate came into existence, the name, because that was the last of about seven or eight names preceding it.

I've always wondered that. Yeah. The one um I walked out of the Pentagon uh with a colonel who was in charge of all this stuff, and he said, Guess what?

We've changed the name of the project. It's now called Quantum Leap. And I said, Do we have to? Quantum Leap progress is the smallest possible progress at above zero.

And Stargate was then born as a result of that. Wow. Wow. Why did they change the name so much in the beginning? Well, because these were unclassified names and it was it's part of security to keep it secure.

Okay. There was center lane, um, girlflame, and a whole bunch of stuff like that. Interesting. Interesting. I'm nervous about this test I'm about to take. Oh, don't be. Won't hurt at all, promise.

What if I flunk it? Probably will. Most people do. Don't worry about it. Oh man. Now there's I want to give you a little I want to give you a little background about it.

When we humans, and I presume you're human, some of my friends are questionable that with regard to me, but most humans have multiple conversations going on at the same time in their head.

You're worrying about the lighting and all that, and you're having a conversation with me. I'm thinking, well, gee, what am I going to do for dinner? And I hope this thing doesn't go too long.

That kind of internal conversation, but it's not relevant for what's going on at this moment. So we we uh edit it out of our cons what comes out of our mouth.

We all do that, and it's just part of being human. And so, why not allow someone trying to be psychic to do the same kind of internal editing? So, I'm going to tell you a little bit about what a potential remote viewing target is not going to be.

For example, if you get a mental image picture of your mother cooking a hot apple pie and it's cooling on the counter in the kitchen, please, please don't tell me about it because there's no food in this target pool.

There's no indoor sites by this problem. There are no people here. There are no buildings. I mean, there are no uh inside shots and so on. There's no um human artifacts like rakes and shovels and things like that, no transportation devices.

All that stuff, if if it comes in your mind, just don't put it down on your paper, don't tell me about it. Other than that, it can be anything outdoors, period.

Anything. So it only only outdoor stuff. That's right. Interesting. So that allows you, uh and it works beautifully for us, to allow potential participants or subjects, if you will, to have that internal sensor reduces the background noise substantially and allow what psychic ability can emerge from the noise.

So only okay, so when I'm when I'm doing this, only think about viewing something from the exterior or that's outside. Yeah, and I have a a a stylized interview with you about that to aid that.

So it's I don't know what the target says. The concept is called double blind. You don't know what the target is, I don't know what it is. And the fact when you're remote viewing hasn't even been chosen yet in the computer.

So I can't clue you or cue you in some way. Well he's maybe it should be a kangaroo riding a camel across the desert, except there are no animals in this thing either.

So that so that's the whole idea is to just to reduce the internal noise. Also do not expect a multimedia extravaganza between your ears. Most people, even our most like Joe McMonagh will say it feels like he's guessing sometimes.

Okay. So it's not a it's not a vivid thing, which we'd like it to be, but it isn't. Would it be would it be better to explain the the aptitude test before I take it or after?

Uh I'm not sure what you mean. Well would we I would like to talk about what I'm about to do. Okay, go ahead. Or should we just do it and talk about it.

I think let's just do it and we'll talk about it afterwards. Here we go. Yep moment of truth well it's it's some moment do I draw with my do I close my eyes what it no no no no hang on.

Well I'd like you to just write your name and the date and time anywhere on the on up up on the corner somewhere. It doesn't matter where you put it what is today today's May 9th.

May ninth and it's about uh uh twenty five after thirty five after noon. Now like any any kind of a job I have to instruct it you what it is I want from you.

So when you're ready I'll give you what's called the tasking what I'm asking you to do. And it's very simple. Okay. Let me know when you're ready. I'm ready.

Okay. Sean please access and describe a photograph I'm going to show you in about 15 minutes or less from now. Okay. And the idea is to put down whatever pops into your mouth first.

Don't overthink it. Whatever pops into my mind first subject to the conditions we we mentioned.

And you can tell me as you write you write it in words or draw pictures or build it out of clay or whatever you want to do with it.

Doesn't matter so you're thinking about it. Don't think about it. Just respond to it, I'm not sure what I'm talking about drawing what came to my mind first. Which is it?

Should I tell you what I'm drawing? You can't show it to me even should I keep drawing? Well no no just all right capture what your experience is okay that's a circle on top of a point is that what it is that is a pyramid with the moon.

Okay. Above it and then this is some kind of I don't know I was envisioning some kind of like circular okay maybe cloud. Fair enough don't go into that detail.

Okay. Um suppose you could sit on top of what you call a pyramid and gaze out in front of you what do you see?

It can't be animals can't be any of that what did you write in your I wrote a barren desert with a couple of dead trees with no leaves on them.

All right excellent let's take a short break here. Okay. We'll come back to it in a moment um interesting thing about a break is we don't want to talk about what your experience is or anything like that.

We'll talk about something else like what are you going to have for dinner? What movie did you recess see? Did you see uh I don't know did you see the Oppenheimer movie at all?

That was a strange movie. Don't go. Okay. I can tell you a is this the Civil War movie? No no no this is over the Manhattan Project Oppenheimer built the atomic bomb.

Oh yeah yeah yeah I can't believe I just see I'm not letting go of what I'm so I I when we're finished here I'll give you a link to a a uh Amazon Prime movie called The Day After Trinity and that that is an accurate portrayal with the real people that did the work.

It's an excellent film. Okay let's get back to it I'll retask you new paper. Pardon no right the paper's good enough and I want to get on record by saying uh the interview procedure that I learned uh that I'm using with you to a great deal I learned from Mr.

Russell Tark. He was brilliant at that job and I honor him for uh teaching me that excellent guy look around war, inflation, recession. Did you know that many experts call gold the everything hedge?

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Excellent okay and I'm gonna surprise you we're gonna cut the session off now. Okay. Why do you think I'm doing that exercise is complete? Because I'm drawing something completely different than what I did before.

Well no I'm doing it because we like as humans to fill in the blanks. Well there's a house there must have XYZ on it or uh that pyramid must be whatever it happened to be.

So we'll we'll call a stop to it and I now do a look the the job comes to me. Now the target has not yet been chosen I have no idea what it is.

So I cannot I'm gonna analyze your results bear with me one second here a little bit of homeworking here. This computer oddly enough is very slow may I have the sheets please thank you excellent okay now see I can't I can't put words into your mouth.

So uh for example here you say um you draw a building and it's very clearly the shape of a building. So I have no trouble thinking it's not a kangaroo.

It's a building. So you get credit for that. What I'm doing, and I don't want to get into the technical details, it's called fuzzy set analysis. I'm trying to encode what you said in a way that this computer can understand to do the arithmetic with look mo, no hands.

Interesting, yeah. Okay, you've got trees, and we got this stuff here, and I'm not gonna describe what I'm doing here because this is gonna be public, and we don't want people to have to guess this list I'm doing here.

This circle thing that you do here? What did you say here? That is a like a body of water, a lake or a pond. Okay, thank you. Okay, I think that's pretty good.

Pressure's on me, not on you. I feel nervous. Huh? I feel I feel anxious. If you're anxious, so am I. All right, all right. I want this to work really well.

Okay, now the computer goes to work by itself. What it means is it still hasn't chosen a picture yet. Really? Yep. Now, it doesn't pay any attention to what I put in there because that would be cheating.

In other words, choose a picture that matched what you said. That's not happening in the code, it just doesn't do that. But now it's going to randomly pick the picture for us.

This is a demonstration. The participant is Ryan, and this is trial number one.

And Target Beaver's the right answer.

You'll be rather pleased about us. Pretty good.

No way. Are you kidding me? No, why? Can I see it? Yeah.

Well, lots of trees, big concrete buildings, and there's a pyramid on top.

Where's the body of water? Buzzle. Buzzalo. Uh actually the metric here. Can I show that on uh camera? Would that be possible? Sure. I just want to the audience to see how awesome my remote viewing capabilities are.

So there it is. Not bad for a first attempt, actually, quite good. We have a metric called um figure of merit. And the way that is uh there are 300 photographs in here.

This could have been anyone, any one of them. And we had a team of people, like nine people, encode them in such a way that a computer could understand them.

It's called technically called a fuzzy set, and let's not go there any further. But that's been pre coded. So, what I did was to get a fuzzy set of your response.

And then the computer does a Venn diagram, well, not technically, but something like it. It said, How close is your description? There are two things that it asks. How accurate was your response?

In other words, of all the things in the target, what percentage did you get right? The answer to that question is about 53% of what you said was correct in the target.

But that isn't enough. I want out of all the things that you said, um, what percentage of what you said was correct? I mean, see the difference one is what percentage of the target did you get, and the other part is what percentage of what you said was right.

I mean, maybe you said everything was correct. No. Um actually you said 52% of what you said was correct. So the product of those two numbers is what we call the figure of merit.

And when that's above a certain threshold, and when we use this to make money on the market place, uh the that uh threshold is uh 0.452, your number was uh point two eight.

Wasn't good enough to bet bet money on. Okay. But only about 20% of Joe's is, or 20% of Angela Ford's are. No good. It's a very high, in fact, it almost never misses above when is that good of a remote viewing.

So congratulations, Sean. I'm really pleased you did a damn good job of it. So what is this? So if I was what would you have me do next? Go on with the interview.

If I was, if I was, if you were looking at me to see if I had these capabilities, would that be uh let's move on to the next test, or would that be uh Yeah, but not right away.

Thanks for showing up. If we need you, we'll be in contact. Not quite. I mean, tell me why it would be a mistake to have you do it again right now.

Because I would overthink it. Not only that, one has to ask the musical question from where does the information arise? And we, my colleague and I have been worrying about that a long, long time.

And that is did you get it from looking into the future and seeing the picture? Another precognition. And if you did that, but you know, uh 20 minutes from now you have a different picture.

How would you be able to sort that out in your mind which when it which precognition pays attention to it? No. So uh we only collect data for like for with Angela Ford, uh, two sessions a week.

Two sessions a week. Yeah. That that fast of sessions? Wow. Actually, the fastest one, uh, one of our participants is a psychologist named Nevin. And I say, okay, here's please access and describe the same thing I just said to you.

So he said, Oh, there's a tree in a path. I quit. It was over in about three seconds of it. There's gotta be something more, but no, that's exactly all that was there.

He just nailed it. No kidding. Yeah. So what so I got a 50% on the like a 53%, I believe he said on the drawings, and a 52% on what I said was actually in the photograph.

Yeah. So what would what would be a close the book, don't contact us, we'll contact you. Thanks for showing up. Well, if if never on a single issue like this.

Okay. Giving a a hint. Uh, I don't know if Joe would like this, but it's the data. Um, I have something close to 1,500 remote viewings done by by Joe.

And uh it's uh they five pictures are chosen, only one is the right answer uh at each trial. And so there's a 20% chance of getting it right by luck alone.

Uh his score is 44% hit rate. Statistically, that's off the charts. But think about it, that means 56% of the time he blows it. Interesting. And he's one of the best people we got.

Interesting. So, how was it? Was it fun? I want to do it again. No, I'm not gonna let you. I know, I know. We can do that. I'll tell you, I can do this.

In fact, I work primarily through Zoom now. I've got a woman in Milan, Italy, who's a cracker jack at this. No kidding. So I do the interview over, you know, and then she sends me the response by email, and I do the same thing I just did with you.

So is this is this some sort of a hobby for somebody like that, or what do they do with it now? Well, what she does, uh she works with some people and finding lost people, people who have disappeared.

Okay. I think Joe probably told you that that he worked with the Japanese on exactly that issue. But she does it for someone else doing the same sort of thing.

Interesting. Is this stuff still within government? I know that the the project should be. I would love it to be, and um probably is a good time to dig dig into that a bit.

A Navy SEAL who will remain nameless, um invited us to try to restart Stargate. This was after Stargate was closed. And it it never actually happened, um, but for technical reasons.

But I think what's interesting is that um What do you mean technical reasons? Um the person in charge, uh I don't want to mention her name, it was an intelligence officer in in the in Hawaii.

And um there were other reasons I wanted to put her out of business. So it just the money didn't come forward, and we actually didn't do the experiment. But it it turns out that the working class people, not the managers like the intelligence officers, love this stuff.

It works extremely well for them. That answers questions that couldn't get by normal intelligence means. The problem is we try to get it started again at the management level, uh, you know, flag officer level, kill it.

They wouldn't take it. Interesting. Can I ask when that Navy SEAL invited you to give the presentation? Was it recently? No, not recently. Probably 15 years ago. Fifteen years ago.

Yeah. Okay. So um people ask me, do you think the government's still doing it? My answer is I hope so, but I don't believe they are. Okay. And surprisingly enough, most of the money came under pre uh uh Republican administrations.

No kidding. Yeah. Why do you think they aren't doing it anymore? Uh for a number of reasons. First off, uh intelligence collection has drastically improved over the years compared to what was going on during the Cold War.

And so it's not needed as much.

It's often used in law enforcement. There's a book written by a sociologist called The analyzed the the uh workings of psychics with the police departments and sometimes that's quite valuable.

But in terms of the intelligence collection world um it's not needed as much as as it used to be. Okay. Literally I mean it's noisy data it has it should never like be sole sourced.

And I don't mind saying this in public uh I was on a television interview show with um on Nightline and opposite me was uh Robert Gates CIA director at the time and uh the the uh the Larry King I think it was the fellow uh interviewing me they in the green room they said you should interrupt and you know make it really lively and um I caught this uh the previous director Robert Gates my moan fear was sitting there I was gonna call him Bill Gates so I called him Mr.

Director all the time on TV and it turns out that um he said this all the uh there was no actionable single source uh um he used the term single source application uh that was correct that was useful and I said excuse me sir uh you should never sole source information for actionable intelligence we got into trouble that way haven't we so uh Larry Kane said let's move on and that's true and there were I mean it wasn't perfect but it was good enough on the to to keep people coming back very interesting thank you well we're gonna move into the beginning of your career uh oh like before we do I have a I have a subscription account and uh it's Patreon they they are top supporters they've been here since the beginning they're the reason that uh I get to have this awesome job and interview amazing people like yourself.

Thank you and so one of the things I do uh for their extra support and love is uh I give them the opportunity to ask the guest a question.

All right. So this question comes from John Paul. Excuse me. In your research into psychics and remote viewing was there any indication of a spiritual or extra dimensional connection that may have suggested that viewers are being helped by or connecting with other entities spirits watchers or other beings that then transmit information and visual perception of remote locations back to the viewer?

No. No I I it deserves a better answer than that. It's a very interesting question. Um those are important questions humans have been uh worrying about that ever since we scampered down from the trees those are really important questions.

There's an idea in physics that says if it ain't broke don't fix it. So our approach has been just straight hard line physics physiology and psychology and physiology and these spiritual issues however important they are and it may influence people's reason to do this but the question is is that part of the mechanism by which it occurs?

I don't think so and the reason for that is if it's panhuman what it means is remote remote viewers can be found in Beijing China they can be found in Saudi Arabia they can be found in India even found here in Tennessee for goodness sakes oh my goodness in California it it goes across there's no cultural reason this does not work.

And that is very good I think more than substantial evidence that it's a genuine phenomena part of the the Homo sapien species. And if that is true and it's a big if let's say then it can't depend upon a particular spiritual worldview because there are so many different spiritual worldviews including having none.

Most of our people are non religious at all. Fascinating now maybe meditation which I don't think that I would go so far to call that religion but way to quiet your mind there are many techniques there was a a conference arranged by our colleagues in Brazil it took place in Alexandria Virginia and there were five remote viewers and three managers and what was fascinating to me I went on for two days and we tape recorded the whole thing that there was no two remote viewers that did the same technique.

One person does it by dreaming another person does it like we just did business like across the table. Other people have tried meditation other people have tried music listening to that first I mean there are whole kinds of really bizarre ways doesn't matter if you want to stand in the corner and spit nickels out of your mouth and do removing that way we're happy with that.

Whatever works works. And our job is to try to figure out what is going on with that what is going on and we can talk a little bit about that later on in the interview mechanisms.

I would love to do that. So what you basically what you're saying is that you think that this is species specific to humans. Yeah. Now not exclusively but what that means is there isn't a culture in Central Africa let's say or in in Norway that can't do remote viewing.

Any anybody any human can do it. Now like any other skill that humans have there's a spectrum some people are really dead on with it and some people can't do it at all and most people are somewhere in between.

So maybe we get into some history before we dive into your nuclear physics career. But since we're on the subject but you know I had spoken about this with Joe and um on on on the on the show here and it sounds like if I remember correctly it sounds like he thinks the same thing that this was kind of maybe maybe we've lost maybe the majority of the species or or maybe lost is the wrong word, but we we've lost the ability to do this or at least we've we we we're having troubles accessing it.

So if this is human specific when I mean what's the evolution of this and how did we how did the majority of us am I saying this correct lost the capability or at least don't know how to access?

I think I disagree with Joe on that. I I see no evidence that we've lost it. I could be I don't want to misspoke misspeak so now I'll tell you why I mean um as we we'll talk later on in the interview I've done a lot of work uh with the Russians now and there's a cultural difference between uh Russia and the US one of it is that it was kind of a misnomer in my view that the Russians are non religious.

They're very religious. They're like six or eight churches in the Kremlin alone and Stalin attended one church through in each week through entire uh years of the Stalinist era.

They're very religious but it's the it's the Russian Orthodox church. And if you've ever attended a Russian Orthodox ceremony there's nothing but mysticism you go there's no pews to sit there you stand around and the priest never even looks at you.

He's mumbling something incoherent in uh to an icon on the wall. So it's very kind of mystical whereas after after after Luther and the the rise of Vatican II what's happened unfortunately is we've taken mysticism out of the practice of religious things.

We don't the Roman Catholic Church doesn't it can give the Mass in local language instead of Latin and so my wife thought about this and I'm digging into it with some colleagues that one of the reasons ESP is so well accepted within the culture in Russia and not so here is that they're used to mysticism and people here well what do you mean take the mysticism out of it?

And frankly our work is not mystical at all it's hard, low physics, physiology and and arithmetic fuzzy sets. I want to I want to reiterate I I maybe I've misspoken but I remember talking to Joe about how communication was in early times talking cavemen times that that that communication was a lot more efficient and deliberate than it is now because in in in the conversation was basically saying as language came about it took us longer it takes longer for me to describe to you what I'm thinking and and trying to convey to you at this moment in time when but rewind you know thousands and thousands of years ago it was it was pointing grunting expression and and what he was saying is as we started to travel more and more in groups and safety that we kind of and and and language was kind of developed that that that our thoughts and the way we communicated become less became less efficient.

And so maybe what he was I should have listened to this before this interview, but maybe what he was saying is that because of the overcomplicated communication that we were developing some of the other things may have slipped.

Well remote viewing isn't so much about uh conversation it's about action I mean um there was a fellow by the name of Rex Stanford uh no longer with us a psychologist who invented a procedure and basically the bottom line of it was if this is true that it's innate to human beings some are better than others that we probably use it at a level of unconsciousness we don't know we're using it.

And I can give you a first hand experience like that. I was teaching at City College of San Francisco physics and a colleague of mine was coming coming from the East Coast into San Francisco and part of a convention in downtown San Francisco is before cell phones.

And we had arranged that I'd pull up in front of the hotel at five o'clock the in the evening and we'd go out for dinner together. Okay it's about a uh 25 minute drive from the school to that and I think well to get there at five I've got to leave here at quarter after four and avoid traffic.

I said I'm not gonna do that. It's a big giant pain and I gave myself all kinds of arguments why I don't want to do it. Not psychic at all.

I'm sitting in my office right and finally I said he's gonna be really angry. So I eventually showed up an hour late pulled up in front of the hotel he came running out of the hotel how long you been here I just got here oh thank God I have no way of reaching you I couldn't meet you at five so how did I do that one explanation is I use my own unconscious psychic ability that we all have to maneuver through life more efficiently than I would otherwise have.

And there's a lot of data to support that other than just my own personal experience. Pretty interesting very interesting why do you think people like Joe are able to access this so much more efficiently and and deliberately than others than others.

Well um you could train me get the best high jumping trainer for the Olympics and train the tail off me and man I can clear six inches not six feet no matter what so some people have innate natural skill Joe is one of them.

There are a group of people who think they can train to almost an unlimited skill level and you can't do that. You can only train to whatever the native skill lever is why Joe had that and Angela has it other people do.

About 1% of selective population have a native skill set for that. 1% that's a huge number when you think about it. It's much larger than the number of people that can learn piano well enough to give every side at Carnegie Halloween so our job is to figure out the answer to that question.

I mean right at the moment I'm working with some neuroscientists in Brazil to try to figure out what makes the difference between Joe's brain or somebody like him and someone who can't do remote viewing under lab conditions.

If we figure that out we make a giant step forward so far nothing yet. Nothing yet? It's a very difficult problem. They don't even understand much of standard neuroscience that's something as weird as this what do you think and I wrote a paper together and published it in what's called Sage which is a respected journal online called um exteres let's see extrasensory perception a multiphasic model of precognition.

In other words we have a testable hypothesis of how this might work now turns I don't know if you've heard the term synesthesia I have not synesthesia it's well known about 4% of the population experience it.

People who have synesthesia called synestetes can they see numbers and color they experience music viscerally in their stomach rather than listening through their ears. It's sort of like crosstalk about various parts of the sensory systems in the brain and that's been confirmed with functional MRI and so on.

So for all of our participants including Joe and Angela and they all have synesthesia all of them and that is a huge clue about what's going on. And what that means is in the white matter of the brain there's a lot of communication going back and forth across the brain and we posit needs to be shown if it's true or not that someone who is really psychic like Joe will have much more hyperconductivity inside the white matter of his brain than the average person will.

If that's true we're home free. So we're working toward that end. Wow very interesting very how long have they been working on that? Down in Brazil two years. Two years we're just barely getting started.

In fact Angela and I are going down to Brazil sometime um later this summer uh as what's called a case study I'm gonna put her in a scanner and see how her brain is configured compared to uh baseline people.

So we shall see. I can't wait to hear about that. Well let's dive into you. Okay. So nuclear physics how did we get into nuclear physics? What was the interest?

Well I went to a boys' boarding school from seventh grade onward. So my sophomore year I took biology and I thought I'm gonna be a biologist. My junior year I took chemistry.

No no no I'm gonna be a chemist. Guess what my class what was in my senior year was physics. And the that's goofing around a little bit but the real serious issue I've never had a good memory.

And in physics you don't have to remember as much stuff as you need to in these other disciplines. There's no complicated Latin names for stuff and things of that nature and you can remember just a few basic things and derive other things that you need because you're pretty good at arithmetic.

You don't have to remember it. And that's part of the reasons why I did it. I got interested because the toys were fun accelerators and high speed electronics and things like that was lots of fun and I was darn good at it.

How long were you involved in in nuclear physics? Where did you kind of graduate school which I started in 1963 and I finally quit doing that in probably 1970 and I I had a second postdoc I was a postdoctoral researcher in nuclear physics at the University of California Davis, California.

And I thought I was in academic world and I'm about ready to go to my second postdoc appointment at the University of Indiana. And I flew to Indiana and I told my prospective new boss I can't do this anymore.

The toys are fun and I'm good at it but I just don't care about the underlying issue nuclear structure and nuclear reaction mechanisms not nuclear power or bombs or any of that stuff and he said okay we'll leave the job open for a year and I said okay if you want to but I'm done with it and my father went ballistic he said we put all this money and all this education you're tossing it aside well um I didn't actually toss it aside I'm still using it the techniques when did you work for the Rand Corporation?

Oh golly I was 20 years old for the next five, six years uh as a summer student I loved it. I was in Earth and planetary sciences doing atmospheric physics work at that time.

What is the Rand Corporation? Can you explain that? Yeah it's an organization it's kind of a think tank um based in Santa Monica California right on the beach. It's kind of a marvelous place uh work.

It's very theoretically oriented and if I were a better theorist I'd probably still be working there because it was so much fun and interesting. Uh they do everything from upper atmospheric physics which was what I was involved in to um mutually assured destruction during the Cold War.

That came out of the Rand Corporation that whole idea or if all of a sudden Chicago left the map in a giant explosion we would according to the RAN Corporation which was then accepted as policy we would not immediately go to war.

That might have been a mistake a horrible mistake but if it were a hell of a mistake uh that's one thing but if other missiles were on the way then we're on we go to war.

And I thought that was a wise uh decision at that time um I loved it it was good function were you involved in researching future weapons and things of this nature um under Stargate yes we were we wanted to know the answer not the development of the weapons more importantly was um remote viewing capable of sensing exotic new weapons the answer to that short answer was yes okay so that goes into Stargate okay there was a couple of loose ends I wanted to tie up there but let's let's move into so you gave up your career as a nuclear physicist how did you get into I mean 49 years of research that has to do with ESP?

Very good question. Um my boss at the University of California at Davis was a guy named John Youngerman and I I didn't know anything about psychic stuff never heard about it at all.

And he came to me and he said Ed, would you like to help me do this really interesting experiment? I said what are you talking about? Well there's a pendulum going back and forth back and forth and the pendulum had at the bottom of it a really very carefully designed very silver good mirror.

And the pendulum was designed Youngerman did all this work not me I was just there and it was had a heartbeat period boom about one one swing each second.

Okay and we could use laser interferometry to know the position of that pendulum down to a fraction of the wavelength of light very accurately. So it's a really accurate thing and then we want to know whether people can concentrate on it and by magical psychokinesis mind over matter could they either increase or decrease that swinging pendulum that was the whole idea.

The end of the story was we had um probably the most sensitive interstate 80 truck detector in history which was two miles away so we had to give it away but I was like in my early 30s 31 or so and I saw an advertisement by a well known psychologist Dr.

Charles Tart Charlie Tart uh he did the definitive work early on on altered states of consciousness in fact that he was mentioned even in the movie called Altered States and he said well there's a weekend seminar here by a guy named Bob Monroe who I'd never heard of Monroe Institute and oh nothing better to do I'll go and listen they're talking about out of body experiences.

Out of what? Huh? Out of body or it gotta be nuts what are you talking about? So here's this 50 year old guy up there talking about the weirdest thing I've ever heard in my life that he gets out of his body and while he was out of his body pinched his girlfriend on the butt and raised a slight welt and oh really and he wrote a book called Journeys Out of the Body which I'd recommend I I have it on my shelf at home read it.

Read it in two two sittings and I thought well he's a businessman I'm a physicist I can do this if he can and so I gave it a good college try for a couple nights nothing happened and I put away on the shelf saying oh it's all silliness.

Well uh I was down at UC Berkeley uh doing straight physics on the cyclotron lab there and I saw another flyer saying the science of extrasensory perception is a science of ESP?

Are you kidding me? So I wanted to go hear that talk. And that talk was given by a guy named Mr. Charles Onerton who's no longer with us I'm sorry to say and he was talking science I mean really statistics and how to what double blind protocols and I learned about that from him and he became my mentor actually and got me into this field.

Really? Yeah where did you go from there? He um went to Edinburgh we actually helped him uh financially to get to Edinburgh to do his PhD he never finished college but he was a very very clever smart fellow and Edinburgh took him on as a PhD student and he dropped dead on the scene there unfortunately he had a congenital heart problem that took him away oh man yeah but it can but I mean your research from what I understand never ceased so where did you go from where did you go from there?

Well um I met Ingo Swann Ingo Swan's a well known artist and psychic and we did some work together with Chuck Conerton at Maimonides Medical Center in Brooklyn in the Department of Psychiatry in the basement they had a parapsychology lab doing dream telepathy experiments.

And that's been written up by uh the chairman of the uh by uh um at Yale University. What is dream telepathy? Um somebody's in a in a uh isolated chamber going to sleep and they're monitoring uh movements of the eyes while the person's asleep so you can tell when they're dreaming because when you're dreaming you get what's called REM sleep back and forth back and forth.

And so uh an experimenter would see on the chart that the the he's sleeping he'd press a button and somebody down the hall had view masters those things would click three dimensional uh pictures of a s of a scene and they were supposed to project somehow magically that information into the person's dream then in the morning when they woke up uh they they had the actual view master that was used for the stimulus plus three others and the participant had to decide which one was the right one and that worked exceptionally well so the view master was a was a it's a it's a round thing like uh uh with little slide pictures in it all of the same theme and as you it's three dimensions when you look through it and you click on it to the next view of the same scene.

And so one of those scenes would have been in their dream? Yeah not yeah not scenes but one of the whole discs of the the the disc of a view master was all on the same theme but different views of the same thing.

Okay. So there were different view masters with different scenes altogether and the the person had to pick out which one was the right one. What do you mean the right one?

The right one that the one the person was staring through while the person was dreaming all through the night. Oh and and that that worked. You bet big time.

So you kind of came into this as a skeptical I'm still a skeptic actually with regard to mind over matter so called psychokinesis but you c you came in as to the presentation to the Monroe Institute as a skeptic then you got you were really drawn to the to the science talk.

Yeah worked with them then moved over to to this what I mean so what well there was one amusing thing though when we'd answer the phone in the basement of my Monty's medical center we'd say hello division of parapsychology may we tell you who's who's calling and that cognitive dissonance on the phone are you talking about but that was really good research there actually.

How long did that go on for? Oh god uh run by uh Stanley Krippner a well known name in the field who's just turned 90 um and Alan Vaughn and uh Alan Vaughn introduced me to Ingo Swan that's how I met Ingo actually and so what was when you were doing the the sorry what was it called dream I was not involved in the dream research.

You were not involved in the dream research what were they looking for? Say they made the connection okay there the dreamer is able to identify yeah now the question is how and why never we're still asking that question but what Chuck Honerton said that no researcher wants to s stay up all night it's a hard way to get one one pr one set of data all night because you you have multiple dreams uh dreaming time over the night four or five times each so and you don't get as a researcher you don't get any sleep.

So he said well what is it about the nature of dreaming that makes us seem to work so he guessed that it's what called somatosensory reduction. In other words you don't feel um cold or hot and uh your body is in a very comfortable relaxed chair.

So he said well there's other ways to do that besides being asleep. So he invented something uh from um the research elsewhere in Germany called Ganzfeld, meaning whole field.

And what they do is they put you in it's an extremely interesting thing. They take a ping pong ball cut it in half and gently glue it over your eyes and shine a soft red light in your face.

So no matter where you look you just see a patternless feature of the same kind of color no gradients in it at all and do the same thing with your ears with very quiet white noise.

What you hear is shh all right so there's no pattern. And what happens it is bizarre as hell I've been a participant in those kinds of studies you know your eyes are open you're told to keep your eyes open and you know it's red and all of a sudden it's dark.

The red experience vanishes your brain says well there isn't any patterns here we give up so it's a kind of altered states of consciousness except it happens at 20 minutes not all night long and when when that happens then they do the same thing with the view masters are more more sophisticated ways of picking a target.

The participant still has to choose which of the four possible targets is the right one. So when you when the red goes away in the brain sounds like the brain essentially shuts down.

Aaron Ross Powell In that visional that vision, yes. Is the participant aware of what's going on or are they completely No, they know they're doing an a side experiment, but they don't know what's happening outside of their world.

Do the are they conscious enough to know that the red light is gone and react to it? Yeah, I've been there doing it, uh not as a participant, you know, just to experience what the Gonsfeld is like it's bizarre.

I know my eyes are open, but it's just black. What the hell's going on? Now that gets to an interesting point for later on because all of our sensory systems, the the big five that we know about, there's more these days than we have five, they're all more sensitive to things that are changing than things are not.

So you're lying outside on a nice clear night, no street lights and what have you and you see the stars is really beautiful. What catches your attention is the satellite that goes over.

And cops have blinking lights on purpose because steady lights are not as attractive as something that's changing. So that gets us to something more interesting later on about a mechanism how this works.

Can we explore that right now or would you rather sure why not um so we argued that if the S in extrasensory perception really is sensory, then the big five things we know is there must be something that works better when that thing, whatever it is, is changing compared to when that thing is not changing.

Because otherwise that's the that's the way our other sensories work. Maybe the ESP sensory part works the same way. It does and we found it. And that turns out to be something a little harder to describe is the changing of the entropy of the target system.

And that works extremely well. Can you elaborate? Sure. Um best way to do that as an example um entropy is a measure of chaos um and things that are uh for example if you put your um water which has molecules bouncing around it like mad and put it in an ice tray and stick it in your freezer it freezes them what happens is that's a a a serious drop in entropy because it's less chaotic.

Now there's a side issue here called the second law of thermodynamics which I don't have to get into if you reach behind your fridge you know it's pretty warm behind the refrigerator.

The heat that's taken out of the water to make ice is overly compensated by the hot behind the the counter, behind the fridge. But nonetheless, uh that change of entropy that's called is what correlates with the quality of remote viewing and there's no doubt about it now we have nine studies that all agree about that.

So it says it is in fact a sensory system. Now we understand how if you're looking on the beach and the the sun is sinking into the Pacific, it is well known those photons hit your eyes and how how that carries the information into your eyelids doesn't tell you anything about what's how you're going to respond that to those photons hitting your eyes.

You start crying because you got engaged on that beach I'm crying because my mother killed herself on that same beach. It's the same photons. So all that is generated in so internally with each human being.

But still in terms of the remote viewing stuff the correlation with the entropy is is gorgeous now. It's really quite well established. What are you had mentioned five sensories you know sight, smell, taste, touch, what am I missing?

What are the other sensories that you are Oh the new ones yes uh well um echolocation keep people can top go and and drive a complicated system on a bicycle and avoid all the accidents.

I just saw I just saw a mini doc on this. Yeah that's one magnetic field sensing for some people what is that? To sense magnetic fields. You know um in fact they they worry about well there's a power line over me my sensory system tells me don't be near that because it's disturbing the magnetic field and I can experience it.

Some people have that ability not everybody. Not everybody can do echolocation not everybody can do remote viewing it's like other human skills there's a big spectrum. Have you looked at mediumship?

Ah interesting door there's two kinds of mediumships excuse me one is informational medium you a medium sits there and communicates with a disincarded entity let's say and you're finding out what uh what that person has to say your old Uncle Harry passed away and you want to ask questions about it and so on.

My way of thinking if if Uncle Harry was a moron during her life what about the left death experience wised him up any? But um the question always is it's really interesting I'm gonna take a smite a small break here on the talk um there is a worldwide organization founded by Margaret Mead, very famous woman she was in charge of the um American Society for uh um no uh triple AS American Association for the advancement of science and she inducted the Parapsychological association as one of the affiliate members of that organization and they still are part of that.

So it's a very serious thing. And um okay so I was a member of the Parapsychological associate for years and I went to the current president I was present one year and on their board and all that.

I went to this fellow his name is Dean Raiden and I said Dean I'm quitting the organization he said okay what can I bribe you to do to stay for another year and I sort of said how much are you offering me and he said okay we'll give you how about the Career Achievement award I said okay fair enough.

So the rules are that if you get the Career Achievement award which I got that you give an invited talk at the next year's convention about all your glorious comp uh contribution to Sci research.

Okay so I'm there in my coat and tie and I'm behind the podium and I said look you guys have known me for 30 years and my contribution to this field is well established then I walked in front of the podium and put my hands on my hips and I'll say now let me tell you what's wrong with you bastards and I I ripped everybody apart including me I said look I'm a physicist there is no way in hell I should be doing psychophysiology measurements.

What do I know about that? I'll make all the mistakes that the people who started that made mistakes and we are all amateurs in that regard including me. We're wasting our time I would never evolve uh invite a student to uh to get into this area until they get a serious degree in some other discipline and I bragged a little bit and then I said uh it's actually something I'm a bit sorrowful and that is I hold held a 20 year career job where I was paid industrial scale wages and uh uh benefits and vacation and all that sort of thing, medical care.

Um and I had no other job at parapsychology research. And as far as I know and it's been confirmed there's no one else in parapsychology history that can make that claim and that's pathetic.

You need to have a way to make a living that way or why would you do it? So I I don't know if if I can say this on camera but I'll say it and then you can edit it out.

I said you know I've been studying I'm a physicist I don't know anything about psychology but I've been studying Freud a little bit and uh you know dramatic way I did it I said you know I've discovered why uh women are not as good uh remote viewers as men.

Well that turns out not true I just said that. And I hesitated and I said penis envy and the whole crowd started laughing hysterically. And I said that is the right response to stupidity what I said was made up and stupid.

Now I'd like to know how come you don't have the same response when you are pushing quantum mechanics as an explanation for this phenomenon? You could have heard a pin drop.

That was the whole point of the thing. People came up to me boy we loved your talk I I thought they were dialing the tar and feather company to come and grab me.

And that paper's written up it's been sanitized so it isn't quite so grim. Uh and I can send a copy to you if you want. Thank you. Because it does raise an issue there are three things that we don't know no one knows.

Number one how long does if you have a psychic experience how long does it last? And that's really important to know if it comes in bursts of milliseconds there's no point putting in an MRI machine because that takes 10 seconds to do anything, let alone milliseconds forget about it.

And second one is when most particular good remote viewers do not have control over their remote viewing. In fact Joe and I talk a lot about what opens this look if we have access as humans to all space and all time and we were cognitively aware of it, to use a technical psychiatric term, we'd go bull goose loony in a heartbeat.

You'd just overflow of that information in your head. So the the question proposes then what opens that door to that vast array of information and what closes that door?

We don't know the answer to either of those. One example of which we did a study with Joe McMonagle at Stanford and we didn't get any result in the study.

Part of the reasons is everything that was happening to Joe psychically happened to him when he was pulling into the parking lot. He had did not have control over that.

So by the time we wired him up, the psychic stuff was over. And that's a serious problem. In fact I sent back a $150,000 grant I had to study skin conductance in an MRI in Scotland with psychic stuff.

And I decided I don't know who to put into the scanner or when. That's a waste of money. And I sent the money back and we we we reprogrammed it.

These are serious issues and I've got some experiments on the drawing board now to to test some of them. But it's a real tough problem. Back to mediumship. Okay.

Oh yeah sorry got diverted there um the other form of mediumship is called physical mediumship. And um my colleague Sonali Badmarwa is the main person behind this with her colleague in Brazil um Everton Miraldi and she found 2500 or so documents dating back to the 15th century on physical mediumship.

Now it's all fraud all of it and what that means I mean not our views this is in the literature people are with top scientists of the day including Michael Faraday well known physicist and the other problem with it is it's primarily contained into one culture.

Remember I said earlier things are pan human it can't be in one culture. This is in the spiritist community in Brazil mostly. And uh you know they get pretty clever.

Now my colleagues down in Brazil have spent a rather huge sum of money to redo the experiments and I kept saying all you're doing is making better measurements that had gone before and we'll see.

But uh I don't I don't think it's real. You don't th so do you you don't think any mediumship is real? No physical mediumship. Physical mediumship yeah but uh uh informational mediumship of course it's real in fact uh Julie Beschel from uh University of Arizona uh she formed formulated what's called the Windbridge Institute and actually wrote a uh chapter in one of her books.

Um they now are doing um grief counseling this by using this method. You know Uncle Harry passed away and the other his survivors are grieving so the the medium gets in touch with that person disincarned entity if it's real.

In a sense it doesn't matter whether it's real or not so I'm sorry this is a little bit of information overload for me. So the two types of mediumship again are what?

Informational medium informational medium they give you information about what the disincardant uh the survival of bodily death that person is talking to the medium and that medium is telling you what the medium what the spirit told her.

Physical mediumship means creating things out of thin air like uh epic ectoplasm this weirdly weird stuff or um uh it was called table tipping in the early days the tables would rise up and it's all done in the dark tables would ride up and move or table wrapping you'd hear people banging on the table spirits doing that.

And physical mediumship is what you're saying is that's what I'm just telling it's all fraud. I think so. According to your research you had brought up the magnetic fields which actually caught my attention about people who maybe uh don't want to walk under power lines because it interrupts a magnetic field.

What do they what do they say about that? It's a very controversial area. Uh I uh there's a woman I know in Moscow uh Natalia Nebedeva she did the definitive work on if you hold your cell phone up to your ear like a lot of people walk around all the time is that radiation hurting your hurting you in some way and the answer for her research no.

She got the Lenin Prize for her excellent work in science and she's come to visit me in Palo Alto interesting woman very smart. She worked for an organization called the Institute for Higher Nervous Activity I don't know whether that's what she meant, but very competent.

Whether or not there's danger for living under a power line I really don't know the answer. I don't think anybody does. But a lot of people think there must be and they choose never to live under them.

Mm-hmm so what do you think about people that have this sensory magnetic sensory that that's a real phenomenon I mean for example um if you have hemoglobin in your blood which we all do hemoglobin has a magnetic aspect to it.

So it's not at all surprising that in fact uh homing pigeons get to where they're going because they can see the earth's magnetic field, feel the earth's magnetic field in their own blood and some humans can do that also that are better at it.

Fascinating stuff fascinating stuff well Edwin let's let's take a quick break okay and uh when we come back we'll get into your time at SRI when I first started this whole podcasting thing an online store was about as far from my mind as you can get and now most of you already know this but I'm selling Vigilance Elite Gummy Bears online we actually have an entire merch collection that's coming soon and let me tell you it is so easy because I'm using a platform that is extremely user friendly and that's Shopify.

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Okay we're gonna get into some SRI stuff. So very good in 1975 you joined the ongoing US government sponsored work at SRI formerly called Stanford Research Institute you became interested in parapsychological phenomenon and in 1985 became the program's director can we dive into how you got involved with SRI well it was late 75 as a consultant that was arranged by Ingo Swan.

Okay because Ingo and I had uh worked together at Maimon's medical center and published some of our results and uh he couldn't tell me that it was all classified but he said to me you know uh you're a physicist um gee uh I'm involved in some work at SRI that involves physics and I'd I'd like to know whether you'd be interested if I were to bring it up.

And I said, well I need to learn more about it. Well let me go talk to the people in California about it first. So I found out later Ingo threw one of his infamous tantrums and screamed and yelled and so to defend himself I think Hal hired hired me as a consultant.

My job was uh because being a physics manager in experimental work, not theory, there was a magnetometer that was being used at the laboratory. And the idea was that Ingo was supposed to use his psychic ability to distort the magnetic field around the magnetometer.

And I said, okay, fair enough. I'm good at debugging these things. Let's see what happened. So I went and I bought a few dollar bar magnet, little tiny bar magnet.

And uh the magnetometer was in the lab and I was outside in the hall and I just walked doing this with the bar magnet, flipping it back and forth.

And the strip chart recorder followed my thing. In other words it wasn't as well isolated as it should have been. So in a sense I did my job as to show that it it's hey don't put much faith in this fix it or quit.

It was funded by the Navy actually so that was part of it what started it. And I ended up being a consultant all the way up till 79 and finally they decided to hire me as a a uh senior research physicist and was my consulting was not part time I was full time consultant.

Okay. Yeah. So they hired me as a senior research physicist and um went on from there. What kind of stuff were you guys getting into there? Well um what what we the agency well uh first of all people think of our program as an S as a CIA program.

They accounted for uh less than two percent of our entire funding. Really? Yeah they didn't fund us well let's talk about you were on percent were you on there when the agency started funding I was there while it was still funding it.

But not at the beginning. No. Can you talk about do you do you have knowledge about what caught the CIA's interest in this program? In fact uh it's in one of my published books about it because the CIA released it.

One of the things that's really fun in my briefing is to make fun of the CIA which I do extensively because the Congress uh ordered the CIA to release everything.

Now so there are like five or six copies of the same paper with different redactions on each of these papers. So I've got a letter signed by William Casey the director of of CIA where his name is not redacted.

All the other versions of it his name is redacted and it says you know released by the CIA with this number you know so it's not I'm not breaking any laws, right?

They did it. And uh the only thing they redacted in the whole damn thing was the author of the memo to the to uh to Casey starting the program.

And they didn't redact his name and only redacted his signature and you can see that because a little bit of the part of his signature sneaks out underneath the redaction.

Come on guys I mean they it was they didn't give a damn you know they were just doing it all together. Aaron Ross Powell But what what what caught their attention to give any funding whatsoever?

Very good question and I think I know the answer to that. It was Ingo Swan actually uh Ingo uh was doing some work uh first of all back up there's an organization in London called the Society for Psychical Research and it was founded in 1882 by some of the top scientists of that era and that spawned a number of sister organizations one of which was called the American Society for Psychical Research based on 73rd Street in New York in Manhattan in fact I was invited to give a talk there so I went to my management at SRI and they did some background and said oh my God that's older than the American Physical Society so go which I did um but the ASPR um worked with Ingo Swan and it turns out that uh Ingo could describe some randomly chosen target in in the above the tiles in the roof over his head.

And a guy named uh I think it was Ken Cress in those days, uh an agency fellow uh ST shop guy. Science and technology. Yeah right um said well if this is real, we probably don't think it is, but it has intelligence implications if it is real.

And long story short, it was real. Who was the first what I guess not who what was the first agency I mean this went to lots of lots of organizations got caught interest in this.

I mean the Central Intelligence Agency, the Defense Intelligence Agency. Yeah I know I know exactly how it moved intelligence arms of the Army, Navy Air Force in Marines, U.S.

Secret Service, Department of State, the Department of Justice, and the FBI. All of these organizations caught wind of this and expressed interest well let's put it this way um eventually.

Eventually um basically uh the CIA was in in deep trouble because of the of the uh Nixon administration and uh they wanted to get out of the business themselves they already had a big problem on their hands and uh FTD Foreign Technology Division of the Air Force based out of Wright Patterson Air Force base took up the the cult took it up after that.

Our contract monitor was a guy named Dale Graff and he's still around delightful man personal friend and he was a contract monitor and so we had funding from FTD from the Air Force for a while.

And then a long very complicated story doesn't matter how it happened but Dale shifted over to Defense Intelligence Agency at he left FTD as a as a civilian employee to the Air Force and he went he's a physicist and and moved to uh actually uh Bowling re uh Air Force Base which is part of the the DIAC Defense Intelligence Agency Analysis Center is what that's called in Washington.

And then he became our contract where we got a lot of money from uh uh from the DIA what were they wanting you to do unfortunately not research it's all intelligence collection so they kept giving us tasking uh to do this this was long before Fort Mead uh remote viewers were involved no kidding so this so this yeah we did it for the most part until 1970 probably 1979 so was the funding to actually collect or was the funding was to collect it wasn't to research no absolutely and we bitched and moaned about it we did have we could do some research because we heard well the Russians are doing so and so well we is that real so we would do research to see whether that had any validity to it or not.

What was it the Russians were doing that caught their attention? Well let's see quite a number of things. One of the things were um somebody down in um Crimea had I think there were rats running around and somebody in Moscow was using their influence to change the behavior of the rats and we said okay we we're not gonna do this with rats but it involves psychokinesis so we did some psychokinesis research can you talk about psychokinesis?

Yeah it means mind over matter uh it's a long thing and there are two ways two ways of thinking about that one is uh behavior of a physical system that you need statistics to understand whether something's really happening andor what's called macro PK that you don't need statistics like this you just levitate to the ceiling.

You don't need statistics the guy's doing it right so um I argue with my colleague in India right now um there's something called poltergeist have you ever heard of that term?

No I haven't what that means is uh noisy toy uh noisy ghost and so there's a lot of work on poltergeist phenomena very strange things happen and I leave the door open that maybe something interesting is actually happening there um a very respected guy uh had taught for 50 years at the Institute for Transpersonal Psychology and uh he wrote a number of books on poltergeist and he saw this one case where um the classic case is it's a very religious family and with a brand new infant and a pre pubescent teenager, it didn't matter what gender.

So Arthur Hastings was his name he's passed away quite some time ago Arthur writes a story that he was witnessing firsthand there was this teenager that classic case this little baby boy was lying naked on the bed and he watched a set of rosary beads fly off the dresser, wrap the beads around the gentleness of this little baby boy and Arthur had to reach in to pull them off that's hard to fake it seems to me that's an example of large scale something or another was that real I I trust Arthur yeah wow wow now my my colleague in India who's a neuropsychologist thinks well there can be what is called group hallucinations.

And on this book the last author here is a guy named Lloyd Auerbach because the first version was written like it was written by a design by a comedian it read that way and I said Lloyd can you fix this for us so he rewrote the whole book.

I'll tell you a side story it's it's his story and you'd be interesting to have him come and talk to you. He's a ghost hunter and not a crazy one.

And uh there's an aircraft carrier uh the Enterprise permanently docked in in Alameda California as a museum and he was on the board uh to get it set up safe for humans and there are all kinds of funny stories he talks about that that uh a whole bunch of engineers were sitting in the in the uh below deck um aircraft hangar and uh not not open to the public yet they see three guys in World War II military uniform running along a gang plant a gangway high up he said you could see them but you couldn't hear them and everybody in the room saw them and they disappeared.

You're not supposed to be here and they they didn't answer and just disappeared. Then uh the poor poor Lloyd got the impression with all his buddies were trying to make this place safe uh they were joking with him all the time hey talk to your ghost buddies we need some more chain we've run out of chains and ghosts are supposed to have a lot of chains oh yeah right right they came the next day there were mounds of chains all over the deck where the hell that came from the story of his he talks I like the best that one of the board members was really a grumpy old guy and just didn't want to prove anything and screaming and yelling and so they said to Lloyd Is there anything you could do not to hurt this guy but to make the make the idea real to him well it was a typical lightning storm like we had yesterday here and a tree hit in the parking lot of this an Alameda and the tree fell over and crushed this poor guy's car.

He wasn't in it thank goodness at the time so what the hell's going on with that and Deloitte's written a whole book about it. In fact I'm having lunch with him Sunday oh really yeah so he so Lloyd talks about he's a ghost hunter and not a crazy one you say definitely not this brings me this interview is not going the way I had planned but I'm just gonna go with it.

But uh I just want to say in your introduction we had said that you believed it sounds like you believe consciousness dies with the body. I do. And so if you believe your colleague your your former colleague and friend Lloyd is hunting ghosts and he's not crazy how do I re square that round hole?

Yes very good question. And Lloyd's agreed with this we talk about this a lot that the assumption that this is a disincarded entity a ghost even though they call it you know the they call it ghosts a noisy ghost but it may not be that way there may be some other mechanism of the more normal type not fraud some other mechanism that might be involved in that psychokinesis all psychokinesis if it's real and it's to me it's an open question not true on micropsychokinesis but macropsychosis is still open for me.

But it doesn't it does necessarily it does not necessarily require a disincardinate entity. That's an open question. I might be wrong. Hey I've been wrong before what do you think happens when we die?

Nothing. Do you think we're just dead lights out? Yep. How did you come to that conclusion? Well um I can't say by experience yet talk to me for 10 years from now we'll we'll figure it out um done a lot of reading and most neuroscientists believe that consciousness is a um outgrowth of the of the brain uh an emergent property of the brain and if that is true consciousness cannot survive burning the brain in a in crematorium after you're dead can't do it.

Have you looked into near death experiences at all? Uh I haven't but I've certainly looked into the research there's an organization called the Templeton Foundation they spent half a million dollars five million dollars sorry on research labs all over the world to address the question of near death experiences.

And bless uh Templeton is well known for uh spiritual things like that and they published you can go to their site and read it that the the idea was they cannot find data to support that that is a real phenomenon.

The experience is real but whether that you know um you know you you see your dead grandmother and you go in the light the you see the light, all those things, trouble is those are the it's an interesting report because they say those are kind of expectations now didn't start off that way.

Well you have a near death experience and Joe had two or three I think um and he saw the rain going through his fingers and he I think he even he saw the light as well, if I remember right.

Did he tell you the details of of his near death experience in Austria? He d he was this when he was poisoned? He did. Good I normally don't mention that until um so those are interesting open questions which gets to the point people ask me why the hell are you doing this research?

Any kind and for me the answer is uh I'm just quoting Chuck Onerton actually he said you know we may not be able to solve these questions about do you survive your possibility death and and what is the meaning of life and all those important serious questions.

It may be that we are adding tools to the toolkit that somebody 50 years from now will be able to answer those questions do you with with what you've come up the fact that you think that consciousness dies with the body and there is no afterlife I mean does that well Jews don't believe in an afterlife to begin with for starters but that's not why I I don't believe in it.

Is that do you fear death? Not that I know of it seems to me um there was a I guess I can s uh use a Star Trek example which I which I was really loved um and briefly um the Star Trek was going around some planet and they had a visitor from the planet there who was a brilliant astrophysicist they knew that they that the star for that planet was going to go supernova and he was working on the details to stop that from happening and he has a romance on board the sh on board the spaceship and he says to the woman I have to go down for my exiting ceremony what are you talking about when on my on our planet when you reach 60 years old you gather your friends and relatives around and at the end of the party you're dead and he said we do that because we need fresh blood we need new people new thinking but you're trying to solve no no no no and uh so he talks she talks him out of going down to the planet for his exiting ceremony and all the relatives come up and are ashamed of him and finally he says I've got to go and she says I now understand well I'll have the pleasure of being there with you so in some sense I feel that way.

In fact let me ask you this way I've got a magic pill here. If you take this pill you will live for the next 150 years with perfect health would you take that pill probably not why because I do believe in an afterlife and I look forward to getting there.

Okay fair enough that's a good answer that's one of the best ones I've heard um I wouldn't take it because part of life is the renewal can you imagine working for the same boss for 150 years?

Forget it. It's bad enough our our Congress on both sides of the aisle they're all too bloody old as far as I'm concerned. We need some young folks I can definitely agree with that.

Yeah so uh that that's a serious critique. I mean part of the problem is you know here you are uh World War II vet or maybe 50s and you you see a problem and boy you go through the process and you finally get elected to Congress.

By the time you get there the problem no longer is relevant but you're stuck in that realm. And you see that all the time in it I don't care what party you're talking about, you see it all the time.

That's a terrible way to run a c anything. Agreed agreed. So let's not get into politics yeah let's not do that. But um you know the man let's you know the the the the other answer to that is there's a lot of beautiful things about life.

Family lot lots of stuff. But you get to see them growing up and all that yeah we're all just trying to get through it. Yeah you know and everybody you know I don't know any other way to put it but everybody's got their shit everybody's got their ball and chain they're dragging around you know with them as they go through life and it gets heavy.

It gets real heavy at times and and um you know I believe when when we go we leave that ball and chain behind. But um but that's interesting you don't fear nothingness.

Nope now I've never been confronted on the battlefield where I'm facing death straight on we'll see when my time comes but right at the moment no and I'll tell you what I'm doing I'm retiring from SIRE search um the end of this year because um my uh how would I refer to my step not stepdaughter would be a daughter in law my my daughter Jamie is married to a woman named Laura as a matter of fact and uh she is a a grief counselor uh she's Jewish and a grief counselor at uh one of the big health organizations called Sutter Health and we become really close friends she is helping me transition and she bought me a book about oh it's a centimeter thick and it's entitled You're dead now what and what that is is very it's not about survival of bodily death what it is is documents it's a book of of not to read but to fill in so that people left behind will know where your you know what your passwords are, what your bank account numbers are and all the details that people have to undo when you're gone.

I loved it. I just absolutely loved it and we we could have an honest discussion about death and it was actually fun believe it or not I'll take your word for it but um wow well let's get back to SRI.

So we were talking death yeah we were we were talking about you know the agency what caught the agency's attention to give the funding who was the first intelligence organization to to fund SRI was it CIA and then everybody else fall was it shortly thereafter I quit because um they were in trouble already so it was picked up then by FTD um and then Dale Dale Graff went to DIA and they were funding us.

And then I landed a $10 million contract with the Army medical U.S. Army Medical Research Development command in Fort Dietrich and the commander there was a two star general and MD and I thought oh man he's got two strikes against him he's a doctor oh no and a general goodness me turned out he was the most fascinating man I ever met.

We became really close friends and Diane and I were at the when his son got married at the head table with him. He spoke n number of languages I don't know how many including uh Mandarin uh just a very clever guy and what he wanted to spend he took do you you know the term MIPR?

Have you heard of that in government funding no the Congress cannot in fact fund anybody except an executive branch agency. They can't fund SRI or me or you so they have to send the money called MIP or the money to some other organization.

So that's how we got most of our money that way by Congress directly but Garrison Ratman, Gary Ratmond uh took $10 million out of his own department funding not money coming from Congress to figure out how does this stuff and he was the first one to say we are doing research here to figure out how this worked.

Now it's not well known and it's not secret. We did had some remote viewers on board spacecraft remote viewing our targets on the ground and we want to know whether the the earth was a shield or not it was not you put remote viewers in space.

We d we didn't Gary Ratman did our job is just to run the experiment on the ground. Let's talk about that no let's not because I I don't know I don't know any more about it than what I just told you.

It's not written up at the CIA uh anywhere. Okay. All right. Not because it's secret it's just one of those things you try and see what happened. How about daily life at SRI?

Why were you guys what were you guys doing on a daily basis? Having lots of fun uh we because we had special clearances that most of the other people at SRI did not have and we had one whole ring or wing of the building second floor and cipherlock doors at each end that meant behind those doors we could do stuff that no one else could do at SRI.

Like when we had birthday parties we we had wine and cake and all kinds of good stuff had parties and stuff but we worked hard and we played hard um we had Friday afternoon and cymedia emporium on the upstairs third floor of the building a lab we'd show movies and have popcorn and beer neither of which well we're supposed to have beer but we did anyway but that play hard was very very important because it it was a team organization and when I took over the team um it was really a whole shift and a good one I think and and they enjoyed me as much as I enjoyed them how were you guys doing your recruiting that was hard because you can't legally in California maybe in the whole country ask a question on a a recruit to join the research group that you are not supposed to ask does this bother your religious sensitivities really important question.

We had a uh an 06 um Colonel Pete McNeilis sat on my head for four years and drove me crazy. He was a devout devout Roman Catholic and what we were doing absolutely violated his whole principles about everything and it just caused us and just a huge amount of grief how would you recruit your your subjects such as that well that's a different story.

Um the Army and Fort and uh Fort Meade uh the big question is how can we get more psychic intelligence officers? And today we still don't have in fact the folks down in Brazil are asking that same question.

We have you know we have psychologists looking at every sort of personality factors doesn't matter uh health factors yeah it plays a role genetics factors we don't know um but none of the normal tests of skill of any kind external skill the only thing we can do to find who's good at it is have a room full of people try it and do it two levels the person uh pick the 10% best people in the room had them come in one at a time for eight sessions and then decide whether they're any good or not and when we did that with as much as 600 people uh over time one percent of them uh performed excellent under laboratory conditions and that's frustrating and that's why we're hoping in Brazil if we get a neurological signal in an MRI that's much better to find people.

Mm-hmm so you went through six hundred subjects uh they were in groups uh for example uh two alumni groups from Stanford group from Mensa and they were pissed off that the Stanford group beat them which I predicted would be the case mensa people too much in their heads um the US uh geological survey group which was right around the corner and a couple oh SRI itself in fact it was really interesting the SRI has its own uh internet system and so I started asking uh we're we're gonna have a brown bag lunch we're gonna do some remote viewing and one guy forgotten his name now just went ballissa we thought we got rid of those morons this fraudulent nonsense bullshit why are we doing this blah blah blah well we had 50 people from SRI sitting in the room and this guy was in the front row like this.

Oh boy he did the best in the room this can't be real but okay come on let we're gonna do our eight sessions on you. He scored beautifully and we're still good friends.

He says I think I can fake it no I'm sorry you're screwed with it you have this ability my friend own it out of 600 people we got six subjects that's one percent one percent yeah and so you know when you're trying to figure out if this is if this is genetically passed on you know what kind of what kind of experiments are you conducting none to try to figure this out none none uh that's very difficult um the fa I'm not I'm not our group don't have we don't have a skill set to do that.

The folks down in Brazil do. Uh you you need to do familiar work. You have to you have to familiar meaning within families. And we have a couple of data points uh that suggest like um Angela Ford is an identical twin and I had the pleasure of working with her identical twin and at least with one trial she seemed equally as good as Angela and Joe claims that his uh uh fraternal twin uh was equally as good as he but I never met her she'd passed before that so two data points don't make a model.

That's where we are what what type of experiments were you conducting on just regular remote viewing like we just did. And what when did it I mean that's a bread and butter thing that I just did with you.

Have have laptop will travel like the movie Have Gun will travel.

I mean the experiments did they not develop into anything else or is was it the same experiment over and over and over and over again for 10 plus years.

We've gotten very sophisticated about it. I mean I brought in a whole new mathematical approach to it which people have wondered how do you know in advance whether a particular remote viewing is good, bad or indifferent, particularly if you're doing intelligence collection.

You don't want to invest a lot of money if it's bullshit. So how do you prevent that from happening? And until our group uh didn't know but now we do know how to how to do that.

Confidence calling so to speak. Was SRA experimentation strictly on well I know it wasn't strictly on remote viewing but what what else were you guys conducting studies on? We did a bacteriological study uh a PK on salmonella bacteria the mu and the dependent variable is the mutation rate of the bacteria and there's a whole group at SRI that that studies that sort of thing.

And it was kind of funny because it was triple blind the head of that department knew what we were doing but the person making the samples of uh of uh salmonella bacteria we had nine test tubes and she'd pour them into nine test tubes uh uh this from the same batch um and label them one through nine lock them in an empty fish tank and one of our colleagues Beverly Humphrey would go and collect it they'd put a tarp over it and she'd wheel it across the campus to our laboratory you know right by the uh you know the active ingredient of food poisoning right next to the cafeteria we've got to be careful about that but uh the idea was two two ways uh participants were asked to take the three test tubes on the left and decrease the mutation rate by psychic means who knows what by by psychokinesis the three test tubes on the right increase it leave the three in alone that was one condition another one was randomly depending on which which participant you could pick any any three test tubes you want to increase the mutation rate pick any other three any ones you wanted for the decrease and then the ones left over you left alone that worked extremely well and we have a different reason why that might work had nothing to do with psychokinesis.

What is the reason well there's a variation there is a statistical variation in mutation rates anyway so if you could use your psychic ability to find the ones that are faster mutating anyhow and say I'm going to increase it there, you're not doing anything you're just picking out ones that are more likely to be increasing and ones that are more likely not to be decreasing using remote viewing so to speak.

In fact we developed a whole procedure and published it called decision augmentation theory in other words ESP is not good enough to make major decisions you should never do that because it's unreliable but it can augment your decision a little bit in the right direction that works in 1985 I believe you were named director of Stargate.

Yeah can we talk about how that happened what those conversations were like well that I was standing on very tall shoulders uh how put off and Russell Targ uh Russell and they started Stargate um not named by that then Russell left for Greener Pastures in uh 1982 and Howe left in nineteen eighty five so I inherited the the directorship I'm glad I loved it that's a big deal I'll bet you were I'll bet you were glad.

What did you want to change about the program if anything is that an interesting question.

Better communication um Howe was a very talented guy still is and I like the guy a lot but he just hardly communicated with anybody in anything we used to joke behind his back his right hand doesn't know what his left hand is doing.

He used to work at NSA and I think that as a as a Navy guy and I that might have influenced it but it was hard to get how to communicate with you.

And with me I'm the other way around I communicate too much. When when NSA, CIA, FBI, Secret Service, when any of these government organizations would approach who would they approach when they wanted somebody to remote view a target would they approach SRI would they approach Joe specifically?

Were you a part of that? Well before the Fort Mead group were um involved um which means up to from 72 to to all the way up to um 79 about SRI did it all all the operational work.

And so Howe would get a notice from uh I don't know um Department of State one of the things we worked with uh was the Korean tunnels uh under the DMZ zone.

Where the hell that came from I don't know um but some of those things um they contacted either the people uh well they were the funders so they would call the SRI and we were RFP request for a proposal and we'd give it to them what are were you w were you present during these remote viewings?

Which ones? Any of them oh all of them as director uh from eighty five onward yeah what are some of the most fascinating ones that just stick out in your mind I'll bring one up okay that I want to ask you about when I had Joe in here he had talked about he remote viewed Mars I believe maybe it was one million BC and saw in in and and there was a pyramid are you familiar with this I'll let you pick it up from there I don't believe a word of it you don't believe a word because you can't get psychic functioning requires data feedback that it was correct or not.

You cannot prove that statement. Okay. That's why I don't buy it well I appreciate you saying that are that's a fantasy I you know that we had in fact do you know that there was a group called Heaven's Gate that had mass suicide in California because one of the remote viewers from Fort Meade said ah the Cohotech conference comet is coming by and it's followed by a space f spacecraft full of lizard people.

He remote viewed that and they're gonna come and invade the earth and eat all your youngsters or whatever the hell it was and 40 people I don't know how what the number is I made it up but a large number of people literally killed themselves out of fear.

And I got called into what the hell's going on I was asked by the cops about that. That's the danger of making remote viewing without feedback he had no idea what the hell he was talking about.

That's the danger makes a lot of sense what are some remote viewings that you witnessed that did have feedback? Sure um that were accurate. Yeah one of the things that the um Department of Energy was interested in could we use remote viewing to sense uh directed beam energy systems and we had uh two that they paid for $50,000 for remote viewings for each for one one viewing on that problem.

And one of them was called Project Rose very classified at that time it was a microwave high high powered microwave generator uh on the uh um in Albuquerque New Mexico at uh Sandia National Labs and we didn't know that of course at the time we were held blind and said here's the geographical coordinates where this person is going to be standing a week from today tell us what you see and um Joe absolutely bloody nailed it he said uh it's a um whatever it is I mean I could show you the the PowerPoint on it but it he he drew a um in fact it'll bring an interesting thing up here in a minute uh uh a contained environment and he drew something that looks like a microwave generator uh horn and uh some other details uh detailed about it and he said this thing is a uh testing it's testing uh destructive testing of of something he didn't know what it was and it turned out that's exactly what this thing they were doing they were shining this high energy microwave thing on electronics to see what the effects were on the electronics it was called Project Rose and however uh about a month later we gave Joe feedback by driving to that location and on the way there the uh Sandia had a solar collection farm a huge maybe a hundred meter field of mirrors focusing the sun's energy on the top of a tower and the tire was sparkling like crazy with all that and we're we're stopped there and I said to Beverly Humphrey with it let's put a sack over Joe's head he shouldn't be seeing this because it's in his future and his whole responses were full of mirrors and the target had nothing to do with mirrors which raises a really interesting question.

But uh he nailed it we showed him the the generator and it worked really fine. We did another one on a high what was the interesting question? Pardon me?

You'd said that that rose an interesting question. Oh yeah okay in fact I'm uh doing designing a study now to study the severity effect look let's suppose you're doing a remote viewing of somebody randomly chose something and it was a gas station and on the way to give you feedback there's a building on fire.

Oh my God look at this and that is far more interesting for you to remote view than the actual target system. Okay. And yeah so the question then is how do you prevent that and I don't think you can actually so actually Joe came up with this idea.

We did an experiment to test whether this business of changing of entropy does that help people remote view. And we did that by creating sort of an entropy bomb as it were that the out that the experimenter would be out at the site and half the time she would pour liquid nitrogen into a bucket full of balls and that would evaporate in eight seconds and that would be a huge change of entropy.

And but that catch the removing it's like a flashlight in a dark room. With some caveats it worked beautifully now with some funny odd things you know outside a Catholic church the priest would come out what are you guys doing?

Oh it's an experiment don't worry this big cloud of stuff's coming out of this box. A lot of very funny stories about that.

In other words uh instead of driving to the gas station and here's a building on fire, we'd have the blindfold you wouldn't even see the building on fire and it would take it off looking at the uh and that worked beautifully in fact much more precisely than I imagined because in the middle of the study uh Angela Ford's uh twin sister passed away and she couldn't come out to California so I flew to do the finish up her trials at her house.

Now that may not can't take her to the site but everything else worked just the way it's supposed to work out in California except when I found out what the site is to be, I said to Angela wouldn't tell her so please put on the blindfold and we'd sit patiently on her couch as if I was driving to the site and I'd say okay we're pulling into the parking lot now Angela and I had uh professional photographs of the site where it was predefined where you stand and where you're supposed to look at first that was all predefined.

So I would take Angela to a blank wall hold that picture for that site right in front of her take off the blindfold it was statistically equivalent to doing it in real time at the site as opposed to the photograph.

That worked beautifully a piece of Joe's research. Wow wow what are some more what are a couple of other ones that you've that just blew you away it had to do with the uh directed energy system again a high energy high energy electron accelerator at Lawrence Livermore laboratory and uh I actually I cheated in some sense at least in my briefings and I'll fess up to it every time um there were Joe was to uh do remote viewing in eight hour six uh eight hour segments uh saying hey track this guy that's going to be on site somewhere in the Bay Area.

And uh uh after the whole thing was over uh we had uh one of the women on our project was a right sitter for United Airlines so she had a a f she wrote a private private pilot pilot as well and we flew over Lawrence Livermore lab at a high enough altitude we wouldn't get into trouble and I took pictures that flattered the data didn't need to because the the air force uh was funding this and they did the analysis not me but uh but in my briefing it looks overwhelmingly delightful and I say don't believe this as much as good as it looks because it isn't because I took pictures to make it look good.

I fiss up to that every time but it's very very stunning I mean Joe for example described the the headquarters uh the the office building at Lawrence Livermore Lab, the shape of the building and the right number of floors and he got that right because that's where the guy was planning for the the execution later on.

Wow pretty impressive stuff. Yeah yeah wow anything else that really sticks out anything in in in space did a project uh going quote out of body to Jupiter and he quoted did a quote fly by by Jupiter I said Ingo how the hell do you know where Jupiter is?

You can't find Jupiter on a map how did you know how to do that so I have no idea I just said here Jupiter here I come and he was the first to describe in advance of NASA that Jupiter had rings like Saturn pretty impressive.

I mean what's what's what is going through your head I well hold on let me how long I want to know what's going through your head right now. My mind is blown so what was the time between when he had remote view Jupiter and found out that there were in in sawbrings to actual imagery of it?

I don't know what I have to check but it it was not immediate it was months. It's only months yeah and so what's going through your head after they came with that imagery oh that's impressive are you kidding well we did another one uh the remote viewer um it turns out that Jupiter has a whole bunch of moons uh and one of them is called Io and it goes around Jupiter very rapidly it's very close to the surface so it suffers a an eclipse every orbit so uh I went to my boss uh at SRI because uh Buller Bulivan watch company uh wanted to give it an award for somebody with the greatest the most interesting experiment on time so I said hey I want to go uh to get that and so my boss said are you are interested in winning the Bulvar watch companies or do you want to actually do the experiment?

I said I really want to do the experiment so he said I'll fund it for you so um with this participant we'd be up at three in the morning so I I had I had to uh the remote viewing was uh tell us in and time when you remote view the moon of Jupiter and it's half lit.

That was the definition of the eclipse time half lit by the shadow of Jupiter. I forgot how many trials we did it was quite a number of them and he was right within plus or minus 10 seconds.

Now the question is in what time frame did he get that? Did he get it before the because we had to hire a telescope uh at uh Chabot College to make the the measurements for us because how do we know when it was which they did for us we paid them for it.

Did this participant named Gary get it in Jupiter's time which was 40 minutes ahead of the telescope because it was 40 minutes away or did he get it in so the question is what do you think?

In other words is remote viewing faster than the speed of light. Jupiter time. That's when it appeared but the question is did he actually get the data at that time?

I think what happened is he got the data he he had his experience at that time but he was actually getting the data from precognition of the next day's photograph we showed him the answer.

And that's really hard to s to separate out. Wow.

Wow it's some of these things are pretty hard to do actually yeah I could imagine um actually I can't imagine you know wow come on you here you see why I I have so much fun with it and and it's challenging and it angers me that we can't figure out how to do this better than we do.

Yeah you know and I'm learning a lot I want to so what's the Ford Mead piece? Are they an in-between? Well so what I'm starting to understand is is SRI's Stanford Research Institute this wasn't their sole focus.

You you were the director of a program within Stanford Research Institute sure so that I did not realize that and so was Fort Mead the bridge between agencies and SRI?

No. Um well Russ Targa and I completely agreed on this that um started with Ingo Swan. Ingo was uh as a he uh told me once I should not be his friend because he's a bitch on wheels and that was an understatement and he said I hate flying out here to California to do your stupid experiments.

Why there's an office in New York City for SRI let's let's let me do the experiments there. And Hal said sure and Ed and Russ Targ said no no no he's not a scientist you need he need you need supervision on this well said no and that started something we're paying deeply for even now an Ingo Swan cult that Ingo went there and trained he I mean he was a brilliant guy but he's not a scientist and there that started the Fort the Fort Mead people went up and were trained by all this guy and almost none of them produced actionable intelligence.

So these are two totally separate entities almost compet competitors no our job my job was to do research to make their job better. Okay and they never opened any of my classified emails well that's a shame yeah it's definitely a shame they could add a much better product.

When did the HemiSync come into play? It never did it never did do you believe in the HemiSync? Not at all the reason is it's bad neuroscience it's just not right what they're doing.

How so and I've had conversation with Joe about it because it was um um let me let me just can you describe what HemiSync is for the audience? Yes uh Hemisync is supposedly this that uh based on radio technology that if you get uh slightly different frequencies in your ears that you get the sum and difference of those frequencies like that's called heterdyning.

And that supposedly um is what's hem h hemisphere synchronization that's where hemisc comes from except that was put up by by Bob Monroe himself and it has never yet to this day been put to a test I've asked Joe that have any have you had any neural neuroscientists check that out and the answer is no.

And Bob Monroe was not a neuroscientist but it's part of the milieu of this company and people go and they have an ex Gordon a wonderful experience. I don't mind people having experience about it.

But in terms of whether it improves or doesn't or related to remote viewing who knows so you don't consider anything to enhance this or you you're looking strictly at factual information.

Pardon you're looking at strictly factual information that's been tested through science is weird enough as it is if I start putting goofy stuff in there. What are is there anything else that you that that that is that you're not buying off on that has to do with the remote viewing space?

Such as the Hemi scene remote viewing flying saucers on on Mars You know in fact Joe makes this big point in his book is Remote Viewing Secrets and all the stuff that he writes and we've given joint talks together at Monroe actually and I love the guy dearly and we we're brothers.

And the question then becomes if it's a study and I didn't invent what I'm about to tell you if it if it is a study there has to be eventual answer to that study.

Maybe it's not what you expect it's some other answer who knows but there's some result of that study. If you don't have a result of a study it's fun to do it's fantasy you have no idea what you're doing.

And so if you have something and a guy by the name of Stevenson Ian Stevenson is his name he did the definitive work uh at the University of Virginia on survival after bodily death work.

Very clever guy and even he said that he cannot separate experimentally whether someone's having an experience of a former life or they're using extra sense and perception to get the same data.

You just mentioned previous life what are your thoughts on that? Don't believe it because um the evidence is self reported all of it if you want to know something that is really bad we humans are horrible at describing our personal experiences accurately we are in fact there are two two uh jobs that people do one is a magician and the other is a therapist I come to you as a therapist uh gee um Sean uh I just met this fantastically beautiful woman today uh she is funny and cute and brilliant and all of that and you say to me Ed when are you going to understand you hate your mother that's the point that that we in fact there's books written on it in fact there there's even a short video online that you can look at called The Invisible Gorilla I recommend the book written by these two people and they outline all the ways in which we are masterful at fooling ourselves.

So I'm skeptical about now because I get fooled equally well. In fact Doug Hanning was a really magnificent magician and Chuck and I went to a Broadway show of him doing this stuff and it's really amazing.

So I told Chuck I'm coming back here tomorrow and I'm gonna figure out one bloody trick how he does it. So I sat there in the center seventh seventh row center and I I could not figure out any of it.

Or better yet um there's a guy um Dale um I don't know I'm blocking on his name he'll come to me in a minute and he's a brilliant researcher and uh Darrell Bem is his name and uh he was at our house for dinner uh in Palo Alto and after dinner and a lot of fun uh I Diane was sitting at the head table I was sitting to her left and he was sitting to his uh to her right and our daughter was next to him he said okay I'm gonna do a trick this is a trick.

Now I'm gonna push this quarter that I have through this solid oak table into a cup. So he goes clink yeah that's a trick. Now I'm gonna break the rules and show you how it's done.

So he said it's sleight of hand. The coin is already in the cup before it goes under the table and you think it's still in my hand. All right so when he did it again in slow motion knowing armed A that it's a a trick b you know when and where and how it's happening in slow motion you can see it happening at full speed you couldn't see it.

I don't trust my observation first hand observation of anything really we're we're terrible at that and so a lot of this BS online comes from that sort of stuff unfortunately I mean I was I was blown away damn it I know you're cheating but I can't see it that it's happening in fact I went to the um I was giving a talk at the SPR in in the Society for Psychical Research in London and they were bragging I was the last on the docket uh teacher day they called it and everybody was bragging their field research they see this that and the other thing so I put in this 20 second video called the invisible gorilla and I'm going to blow it for you there.

What it shows and you can go online and see it but now I'm ruining it for you uh there is two teams three uh three people with black jerseys on and three people with white jerseys on and each team has their own basketball and the idea is that they uh the people with white jerseys can only throw their basketball to other white jersey people and the black team black jersey people the same thing they don't cross match their balls all right and your job is to count up the number of times a white jersey person tosses a ball to another white jersey person.

Now I set it up at the SPR. I said you know we've been doing this research for some time and don't understand we Americans are so much better at it than you Brits.

So they're oh yeah I'm gonna counterform and right in the middle of this 20 second video a guy dressed in a gorilla suit stands right in front of the camera and goes nobody sees him they do not see this gorilla it's called the invisible gorilla and I think there are two people out of 70 in the room that saw the gorilla and the point being is and they say you bias this I said yes indeed and you guys bias yourself when you're out in the field.

We're all susceptible to biases and the book called Invisible Gorilla is very interesting because there are all kinds of other examples of the same problem how do you explain that?

Oh well terms uh you focus on what you are biased for and you tend to ignore the details so you're so focused yeah on passing the ball to who that you miss a you miss a gorilla front of front of the screen banging his chest.

In fact what they do, it's really interesting they've done uh eye tracking you know you can put eye tracking on your eyes the people are watching the gorilla but they don't recogn that it doesn't it doesn't appear in their consciousness which is really interesting say that again okay they they can see that um they're counting the balls going back and forth but their eyes are noticing the gorilla because they can follow the fact that the gorilla is moving and they can the they eye track that that's happening at the same time they're trying to look at the ball at the same time.

So they are seeing it they're not just registering it in their consciousness.

Wow what are some other examples of that? Well one I like a lot it's in the it's online as well you can see this um I come to you up uh total stranger here in downtown Nashville and I say I'm trying to get to the Grand Old Opera Theater and I got a map back when the days people had maps and so I'm here and and you're saying and you start pointing all this stuff out to me on my map.

In the middle of our conversation two colleagues of mine carrying an opaque door walk right between us rudely so and I changed places with somebody carrying the door who has a map 80% of the time you don't realize you're talking to a totally different person.

Even when the gender changes or the race changes it's it's just amazing it's just so unex we are not tuned at looking at the total unexpected stuff.

It's fun to watch that happen it really is very interesting. Edwin let's take a break when we come back I want to get into some of the stuff we were talking about with the Oversight Committee good I'd love to how many guys out there are worried about brain health you know all we hear about is fitness everybody's getting ready for bikini season because spring's right around the corner I'm personally more concerned about my brain you look around you see all these brain diseases that are getting out of control I'm gonna take everything I can to improve the health of my brain and I'm gonna tell you about my five favorite supplements from Laird Superfoods that help with brain health.

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Okay. So what can you tell us about what you were experiencing with the oversight committee? Well when uh General Ratman um with the Army Medical Research and development command funded us he said he wants to have an overview oversight people who can overview us we actually had three committees one was a scientific oversight committee another one was a policy oversight committee out of the Pentagon to make sure we were doing what we were being told to do and then we had uh um medical oversight uh we had to prove you know that uh it turns out that the Army has more strict uh uh rules on dealing with the National Institutes of health so we had to make sure that that was the case for example we were forbidden to use women in psychokinesis experiments based on them because we don't know about this maybe there's a field effect and if they're pregnant and we kill the fetus, you know all that stuff.

So we had we had all those masters. The Scientific oversight committee can consisted of 12 individuals who were the who's who of science during that era two Nobel laureates one of in physics and one uh from the medical world he was the um Doctors without borders kind of guy um their job had threefold one is to review our protocols for each study before we actually collected any data to prove them.

Well it turns out we were pretty good at that so that was a fairly fast turnaround time. The second job that they had which they never actually used was um to uh have drop in privileges unannounced to watch what was going on they never did that they never did that no we paid them $750 a day for for their work when they came to SRI third one is that we had to write up uh I guess my first time uh running the show I had something like 13 different tasks that I had to do this year and each one had a final report and so on.

We submitted the final reports before sending them to the client, the government agency to the oversight committee. They had the rights to uh respond in writing in volume two of the Stargate Archives book their stuff is all there I published it critiquing us and then they would come uh to SRI and meet in person with us and that was for me a thrilling experience we went about um close to 80% of the arguments that we got into with these guys but the best part of it was the 20% we lost because we learned how to do the product much much better um if you say were they all convinced about the reality of ESP?

Absolutely none of them were but they were all convinced we were doing the best science one can do in the topic it was amazing. And we had one guy on the Oversight Committee who was uh uh chief of statistics uh head of the statistics department UC Riverside excuse me and he was all wrapped around the axle over our fuzzy set arithmetic but I showed him one of the examples that had no data other than just the example of in fact I'm gonna show it to you later of uh remote viewing of uh directed energy system he saw that says now I get it well I really went after him on that I said why are you accepting something that is unacceptable?

It was only one trial and you're accepting it and you're rejecting the years worth of work on this because you don't like the arithmetic he sort of truddled off with his tail between his legs was that the was that the same directed energy thing that Joe had remote viewed with the mirrors?

Yeah uh Joe did all uh we had actually three but we only published two of them there was an underground nuke which we nailed but we didn't um never went anywhere.

Can you tell me about that? Well we just didn't do it. Joe I I don't know if he actually we ended up doing remote viewing it or not, I don't recall the captain in the Air Force who was protecting it was done by AFTAC.

Um Air Force uh what's it AFTAC threat assessment um center that's aftec did the oversight committee present any challenges for you guys yeah um it was a good challenge they said you know what you should do design your experiments that everybody's cheating and make sure that they can't even if they were cheating it wouldn't affect the result.

That was a challenge. How would somebody cheat on a remote viewing project? Well one of the that was before uh we did everything precognition it's really hard to cheat when the the target hasn't even been chosen yet so how can you cheat?

But there uh sensory leakage for example uh somebody who knows the target comes through the room and signals to the remote viewer what the answer is. Why would they do that?

Oh god knows why people cheat period. I mean have you have you experienced that happening? No we never saw that are there any other methods oh sure uh on and the Gansfeld um where you know everything has to go go through uh electronics so the person in the Gansfeld is listening to stuff uh was there sensory leakage because inadvertently because the crosstalk between the experimenter and the sender so that it's a it's not really cheating, but it's a way that results get cloudy and you can't believe them.

Would you find that the remote viewers are looking for some type of uh edge quite the opposite you know they had these experiences and they're and they're meaningful to these people they don't want to be accused of cheating themselves.

This is real to them. They're not cheating. How would the remote viewer experience a failure? Something I mean I think you had mentioned that sure that Joe was correct 40% of the time?

Oh he was he was forty four percent yeah forty four percent so how do they because I I could imagine there's got to be some type of a psychological component to this as well.

I mean athletes deal with this a lot of people people don't you know not everybody knows how to deal with failure. Failure can get in your head you see it in in in uh with athletes they get into a slump it takes you know something miraculous for them to get it back you know maybe somebody's making bad grades they get into a slump somebody in in in I mean you know just from my own experience being an operator in the SEAL teams I mean people if you have a bad house run and and yeah you can get into slump with anything right and so I would imagine with a 44% success rate which what you're telling me is is phenomenal because how do they how do they take failure?

Well it turns out that's wholly individually dependent Joe's just fine of it. Hey doesn't work all that time who cares Angela Ford same thing um when we're doing associational remote viewing to make money on the stock market or something like that uh she only gets hits 20% of the time and that's fine with her because it makes a lot of money so um but the other side of that we've had people we've had to dismiss and Ingo Swan was one of them.

Ingo Swan would scream at Hal, you're five minutes late, you're ruining my rise time he would scream at Hal. And then he starts What does that mean? You're ruining my rise time.

That's Ingo saying he's preparing for his study he's getting reason for it to do the study. I'm just quoting Ingo. I have no idea what it actually means. Ingo required us to change all the fluorescent light bulbs in the entire lab to solar spectrum because the regular ones are destroying his remote view.

He was really to blame everything else on his failure except himself. And that came later in his career that's why he himself quit we had some other people in fact I've been trying for years to get Joe McMonacle and Nevin Lance a psychologist to write the risks of remote viewing which there are serious risks one is depending upon the personalities you begin looking at your own well your own persona in terms of your ability to do remote viewing and that is a huge psychological mistake.

People at Fort Mead have had to let people go who go to use a technical term crazy for doing this stuff. It's rare but it happens so most people handle it just fine I mean you know hey fine no problem I'll come back tomorrow.

So you're saying that some people that have this have this ability and and and realize that they do have the capability wind up driving themselves crazy. How so and why?

I don't know why I'm not a psychologist. Does it bother them that they have the capability no it bothers them that they that they failed it bothers them that they failed.

Yeah those few people I asked Nevin Lance the psychologist I said Nevin how do you integrate what your remote viewing ability is with the rest of your life he said I don't know I wish I could integrate the rest of my life as well what are some of the other risks I don't know I think that's the main one that's the main risk yeah is just dealing with failure.

Yeah if you start believing your stuff too much it seems to me that I'm just overlaying my own thinking out loud rather than any serious stuff about it. So you're saying basically remote viewers will get emotionally attached to their capability.

Okay well in 1992 it sounds like you started some type of a relationship with the Russian KGB I did.

I'm an honorary member not of a KGB turns out I first went I think it was even before no 92 is the first year a expat Russian named uh her Christian name was Laura V.

Faith her Russian name was Larissa Balanskaya very talented woman she worked with Kogan in his classified research laboratory on SA. Why the hell the Russians let her out I have no idea but she immigrated first to Israel because she's Jewish and then she came to the States and over a long series of time she ended up getting a citizenship becoming a Christian and then working teaching Russian at the in a defense language school in Monterey and we hired her out of that she got a clearance and so I went to uh Moscow with her probably four times one of which was all the way out to Novosibirsk and um she was very protective of me so on one time we were um one on I guess one of the last time we were we were together uh on that trip uh I was giving a talk at um Moscow State University.

She was translating for the students. And you know I'm dressed like I'm more dressed now the way in the way I normally dress. I had a t shirt on and and um the students are looking like students and two guys in suits walk into the back of the room and uh oh two guys in suits this isn't a good deal.

Turns out they were from the Ministry of Defense and they wanted us to come with uh Ilarissa and I to come with them. And we went to uh do you know what a skiff is?

Have you heard that term S C I F spent a lot of time in a skiffs. Me too. So we went to a Russian version of a skiff and in there was Alexei Yurivich Savin this guy who I gave you pictures of who uh ran the Russian remote viewing spying program.

Um don't slouch this guy he has two two uh PhDs one in philosophy and one in mathematics and he had a group of remote viewers 120 remote viewers in his program yeah if we probably never had more than 25 at any given time and men and women and um their remote viewing group was called uh 10,003 and Joe and I both have medals about this big that we're honorary members of the Russian remote viewing group.

Wow yeah I meant to bring my medal with me but I have a picture of it you can see it.

And he was never I've never met him in uniform but he was reporting to the head of the general staff which would mean in our world that would be equivalent to reporting to the chairman of the Joint Chiefs that's how high up this was well monitored by the Russian hierarchy military.

GRU loved it. When I was there once with Joe, we had a group meeting with the whole bunch of remote viewers they're right remote viewers and I got to work with one of them Elena Klimova who was equally as good a remote viewer as Hal, as uh uh Joe.

Um he trained them in uh hand to hand combat, weapons training um that sort of thing and I said Alexei Yodrovic what about remote in remote viewing you don't understand he says well when the bullets are whizzing over their heads they're highly motivated because they he took him into the Chechnya War.

He retired uh uh Savin did and we became really good friends and I've given talks to his students and what have you but um he we're sitting around a table after a two day conference the first day which we were all slugging down I mean that would be a Russian shot of vodka not this that he had to swig it in one gulp.

I had eleven straight of those I should have died. I mean I was really miserable. I'll bet you were uh because I don't drink that much at all uh the next day I was filling my glass with water no one noticed well maybe no one said about it.

But in the middle of that the way the way you refer to senior Russians is not just Alexei E or General Savin. You use the middle name which is really important Yurivich means son of Yuri.

It's a really important part of the Russian um culture. Okay. So in the middle of all this he had his staff he he had he was still working for the he was still uh in the military and his staff was there at the table and um yeah Joe was with us and um so I've got pictures of of him and and Sabin in fact I I gave it to your colleague for you uh showing they were completely blitzed on vodka.

But I said Alexei Yorovich and he interrupted me and spoke to me the only time in the 20 years I've known this man in English. He said Ed, we're our friends call me Alexei and his staff went ah then he switched back into Russian and uh it was being translated by Victor Victor Rubel and said uh I know you've been trying to get my uh organization chart here it is and I know you're gonna report a contact report you have to write it up yes sir that's true um what you have to do is let the people at DIA know I want a joint program with you guys.

And I said on what? He said well you have the same problem we do and that's terrorism because people were blowing up subway stations in in Moscow and I said I would be honored to to join you on that so I wrote up a 30 page relatively classified document and handed it to the the three star in charge of DIA in the Pentagon and he was all excited oh this is really great because it's cheap a bottle of scotch get all everything you need and um there's you're not putting anybody in harm's way uh it's ideal and they want to do it and we want to do it.

And the the three star said well uh okay I'm going to Moscow in a few weeks I'll look him up and we'll get moving on it. So I walked out of his office in the Pentagon and you could practically hear him throwing the the the paper in the burn bag.

Never happened. So it never went anywhere that's it's interesting because I was wondering you know what does the what does the oversight committee think? I mean you're dealing with classified information a lot of classified information at the time I can't imagine a relationship with the Russian KGB going over well and in I mean well that wasn't that was uh FSB by then and the KGB was long since dissolved.

But I had to get approval because I had SCI level clearances to do this and I got them. And they approved it. You bet. What did you I mean what are some of the what did you think of the Russian remote viewing pro project?

Was it more advanced than us? Did they come farther along? Uh talked to Victor Victor Rubel was in the uh in the Red Army uh he's now an American citizen and delightful man and after Larissa passed away he was my mind in Russia and damn good at it.

I mean he was protecting me no matter what um but uh Victor said you know the Russians never declassify anything I mean I uh I've got a 40 minute video by from Russia Gazetta um company which uh has a new uh is probably the go to newspaper for military issues.

We were front page full front page cover on on Angela and I there.

And um what uh happened was is is is just rather astounding that um I gave a talk in English and it was being translated into Russian and I showed the example of this uh of uh Ingo's uh clay model of this radar site it did not that piece did not show up in the 40 minute video they published fortunately I have a friend in the audience who sent me a video of that so they're a little nervous about that I had the same problem I was giving a talk I was invited to uh with four other Westerners to go to Hong Kong uh um on extrasensive perception stuff funded by a guy named Mingo Wu that's his name he's a very wealthy character and the five Westerners were there plus 100 uh young Chinese uh kids kids I mean really kids who were trained by Qigong masters with supposedly all kinds of uh psychic ability I eventually had to go up to m Bingo Wu later and I said don't ever do that again this is child abuse for these kids because they had to conform to the Western standards of activity.

For example uh they would they claim to be able to put a matchstick in a jar seal the jar and then by psychokinesis break the matchstick so because they sort of believe their own story they said you Ed you can make your own here's a bottle and you can put your own matchstick in there so I wrote wrote some stuff on my matchstick so I know it was my match and I put it in there and we could use clear wrapping tape to keep making sure that it wasn't opened.

I then put some symbols on the bottom of the can to make sure it was my can. And this poor girl she's probably 15 or 14 she had it in her forehead for 40 minutes and nothing happened and she was distraught.

And fortunately there was a guy there uh named Simon Huan who is a um speaks totally fluent Chinese but he's a British he's uh he speaks with English with a British accent because he was uh uh on the British government liaison on matters of of trade with China and I said you know Simon please comfort this girl for me because I was not angry with her in the slightest and eventually she we and so I have a picture of the three of us hugging each other it was really sweet.

And I went up to Binga Woo and complained bitterly about it but she could not do it and she was distraught. Did any of the kids accomplish that? Nope.

And one of the things that they had a hundred kids, a hundred of them and they divided them into two teams on a basketball court and all of the the we Westerners were sitting and watching this happen outside and the idea is these blindfolded kids were going to throw a ball through a hoop it wasn't a game of basketball but it was just three like free throw through the through the hoop except I got pictures I can show you from my computer the kids like this looking through his blindfold.

It's so completely utterly obvious but what the hell can we say? Nothing. One example they had there and it was a tele a teleportation thing. There were two boxes one labeled the English letter A and the other box labeled English letter B.

Very clever they had a an object in box A with a small TV camera in box A and a small TV camera in box B. And the idea is one of these Chigong kids would arrange God knows how to have the item in box A appear magically in box B and it would be tape recorded by the video.

Neat idea except the kid was left alone not supervised while this was going on and oddly enough the two video cameras both quit working isn't that odd yeah right so uh the guy who ran all that uh said and translated into English um we would like to offer you a job to come and direct our laboratory so we do this correctly so one of those rare times I was my ethics were in good shape.

I said look there are great scientists in China you don't need an old guy from the West tell you what if you'd like I would act help you pick the right person from China if you want me to do that.

Simon came up to me and whispered in my ear he said Ed I'd never let you take that job why because you'd like to leave China one day what are so it sounds like we were a lot more advanced at least in their eyes.

Oh in China for sure what what were some of the similarities that you saw that how the KGB or how the Russians were running their program versus Stargate?

They were not particularly open about it. They were pleasant um so they were there to collect from you not share? Yeah. What do you think about the number of remote viewers I believe you said there was 120 something remote viewers as compared to what R6?

Well we had uh SRI only had about five or six at any given moment and Fort Mead wasn't much better so we'll double that number twelve they have a hundred and twenty are you talking about you're talking about experiments that were done where the kid was left unsupervised, the cameras cut out and I'm I'm guessing miraculously the you know the kid broke you know the come on it's obvious what happened.

But I guess what I'm getting at is do were our were we pickier or have we just not found the amount that they have found yet? What do you mean?

I mean I mean we're not being picky you never leave the participant ever alone with the apparatus. We never do. Yeah I mean that's not what I'm getting at.

I guess what I'm getting at is at the time, let's let's just say w would twelve be a fairly accurate number of 12 remote viewers that the U.S. had at the time?

Never at right at the same time correct. One percent yeah so twelve less than twelve at one any given particular time sure okay and only a few of them at Fort Meade Joe McMonacle and Angela Ford maybe one other person produced actionable intelligence.

The rest of them didn't so we're talking three maybe yeah joe Joe would be better off telling or Angela better yet less than 10. Yeah they have a hundred and twenty never show us results not one result have I seen of their remote so that could have been total bogus well I did have a measure Joe and I were there at the same time and we got to do an uh a joint remote viewing with Elena Klimova and Joe.

She was the top Russian remote viewer. She was damn good. And I had control of that so I knew what was going on same principles, same same testing same here.

And they developed that on their own well I I I don't know about that what they do when I'm not there I that was what I ran. I had control of everything I don't know what they do on their own.

Oh so they shared literally nothing they never share anything and Victor said it's part of the Zeitgeist of Russian military they they never declassify anything and I didn't show them any classify any classified stuff at all period very interesting going back to going back to SRI you know we're talking about right now we're talking about remote viewing what are there any other sensory I mean you were you basically we're talking about non lethal future type weapons correct so when it comes to remote viewing were we researching anything else that maybe was similar to remote viewing that I don't know about well there's been a lot of efforts in the field at large parapsychology field at large to look at remote sensing of various kinds like uh can you separate uh different categories of music for example uh Joe did his first remote viewing ever on camera called Put to the Test and I have that video that the ABC people uh sent a um person who's a location scout for movie industry out for to me for two days worth of training about how to pick sites.

Then my hands my my I was hands off after that and she chose uh six sites uh about uh around the um Houston area and uh it was cho and uh it was done with the lawyers had control of it so nobody could do anything and so on.

Long story short, Joe Remote viewed it and nailed this site which happened to been uh a a huge a Houston channel uh ocean channel for shipping and right in the middle of the trial a huge Russian vessel docked right in front right in the middle of the trial where there was an outbound experiment there and Joe was back in the studio.

But he nailed it and he said I hear loud noises from the sink I have no idea what it is there's something large there and I don't know what it is.

Uh blew the mind of the interviewer who didn't buy the story to begin with. But I called up Joe and he called me rather when it was all over and I said boy congratulations you know you did this remote viewing your first time ever on national television.

How how the hell do you do that? He said do you think I did remote viewing on national television I wouldn't do that. I did it over breakfast before we even before I went to the studio doesn't matter when you do it you know you give yourself the tasking they're gonna do something I'll figure it out and he then he faked it on camera wow do you do you understand what I'm asking are we looking into anything that might be cons you I mean remote viewing is it's hard for people to believe.

It's something that that that we still don't understand and so what I'm asking is are there other types of ESP that we're looking into other than remote viewing that we don't that I'm don't know about?

Well that the I think other people I mean the fields there are 300 members of the Parapsychological association and I think almost none of them are doing remote viewing.

What are some of the other things they're researching Well there's the Gansfeld um which is remote viewing alike but they're they they're all psychologists. That's why it's called parapsychology.

So they're interested in you know what are the personality variables that make this person do good or is uh someone who is really um uh creative does that affect the performance in the Gansfeld and so on and so on those kinds of questions yeah they're not looking at mechanism we're the only group that I know of that is looking at trying to figure out the mechanism how this works in fact Ray Hyman in fact there's a joke the two biggest critics and this is their true names um Hyman and Alcock I swear to god they're the critics of this field but Ray Hyman uh was a I think he's still alive um a psychologist from the University of Oregon I know the guy pretty well and uh they formed an organization called Psycops the committee to investigate the scientific claims of the paranormal it's no longer that name it's just called um skeptical inquirer but Cycops uh Jessica otts uh an amazing uh statistician uh went and she and I went to Buffalo to at the 20th Congress of of Psychops and Ray Hyman was uh giving a talk at the beginning and he said to the assembled skeptics do not underestimate parapsychologists they are the best methodologist he's ever met I went up to him after I said Bray my God took took a lot of courage to do that said yeah but it's true so even Bray at that in front of those people said there are classes of things we no longer need any further evidence for its existence.

What we should be focusing on now is how the hell does it actually work? And he's right you know when I interviewed a gentleman John Alexander and he was talking about spoon bending he was talking about plants having consciousness I mean did you were you a part of any of that type of research none whatsoever.

I would not be although there was a a variation on it. Uh Bev Humphley and I went uh covertly under under cover there was a uh course on spoon bending up at Lake Tahoe in California so before going up there I I bought some really heavy duty soup spoons that had the the the handles would look like a Greek letter omega which makes it damned hard to bend.

Okay. So uh we get up there on a Friday night and it's three Friday night all day Saturday all day Sunday as um food, sleep and logic deprivation which turns out to be a big deal so you don't get your head in it and God help me I've been telling this we're s we're sitting with pyramids on our head in front in underneath the big pyramid was and I tell people you know if you put your bananas under your pyramid it'll be sharp enough to shave with later on.

And we got around to uh bending stuff at two in the morning I mean uh early in the morning on Monday I don't remember what time and I'm sitting on the floor cross legged my whole body is falling asleep from my hips down and I'm weaving the tines of forks into little knots.

Nope so I have no idea what's going on there. I'm not in a shape to know whether I'm what I'm doing or not. I was conscious enough that the guy running the show I came by me and I reached and grabbed one of our big spoons and I said can you bend this he said oh yeah and he wrapped it around not the ball of the spoon but this part of the spoon.

So driving home I said to Bev Ben Humphrey was with me I said maybe we saw some genuine PK here. So got back to SRI and one of the people on our projects Gary Langford is a metallurgist himself said Do you have any of those spoons left over?

I said oh yeah get me one so he goes does the same thing right in front of me says it's shock deformation that if you do that and you hesitate it'll freeze on you but if you just keep going you can do it.

I learned how to do it then I can't do it anymore but I was able to do it myself. Thus went away my belief that we saw genuine PK it's it's what what was it shock what?

Shock deformation how does that work? Well you start it like that and if if if you start it and stop nothing will happen. If you start and keep going it's easy to bend it the it will feel like rubber or or something really smooth And these are metals.

Oh you bet. These are the ones with the omega shape and he bent it yeah and so but science there is a scientific explanation on how that happens. Yeah.

Is there anything else you looked into that was that was similar to any weird stuff we ever looked into it we didn't do healing because you know what defines healing?

Healing healing helping sick people and um there are a lot of people doing that for example um I was funded by an organization called the Samuel Institute in Alexander Virginia run by a fellow that used to be part of NIH alternative medical approach uh to medicine.

And uh so he was looking at these odd new medical things one of which was um a guy he funded a guy at um um Duke University who I think it was Duke yeah in North Carolina that um guy by name of Mitz Krukov very clever clever ideologist oh not a heart specialist and uh Mitch wanted to know good question what other things could he do to improve his ability to help heart patients so he had I forget number how many other things they looked at you know vitamin exercise uh you know diet and so on one of which was intercessory prayer people praying for their well being and they did a five year study they called it the mantra project and sure enough after all things said and done they did what's called a factor analysis to figure out was there anything in this mishmash of a whole bunch of stuff that the answer is yes the only thing that mattered was intercessionary prayer.

And so because Mitch is a well known guy, he got a $750,000 grant from NIH to study intercessionary prayer in terms of does it actually help his patients. So it was pretty interesting because what I didn't know if you get funded by NRH NIH you can't have randomization by somebody in the project.

So there's kind of a satellite companies around medical schools who do nothing but randomize participants in the control and not and you know effort groups. They don't even care what the study is.

Okay. So he did the study and one of the funniest damn things there were solid Christians who wouldn't do this because there were non Christians praying for help praying for their help oh please come on turned out it failed categorically so I talked to Mitch Krukov about it and I said that fits our model of decision augmentation meaning that in the five years of you had your people with a bias in favor of this working, pressing the buttons to randomize your people not cheating nobody I'm not accusing anybody of cheating but using unconscious ESP to sort patients in such a way it looks like it was a f uh of a genuine effect.

But it's not and since this other group is doing the randomization they didn't give a damn. No wonder it didn't work. And I think my bet is 50 years from now the only part of PSI one major part of PSI that will survive is this decision augmentation ball that we put together.

And you should look up you should get Jessica Utz to come here. She um I've known her for a really long time her name is Jessica Utz U T T She used to be head of the department at at uh in statistics department at UC Irvine I can send you a contact for her and I'll do it.

I'll reach out yeah she is terrific um she has this ability to she published a book called Seeing Through Statistics and there's not one equation in the book she wanted to have a book that people who read newspaper articles who mention statistics can get some idea what the hell they're talking about.

And I said hey how come you have all these trees in the damn cover of your book she says think about it. Oh seeing through the trees of oh please um she became in 2016 uh the chief uh statistician in the whole damn country she was head of the American statistical uh uh association became chair of that and I've got a I'll send you the link on my YouTube channel um she gave it the presidential address uh which was 70 minutes long seven minutes of it was her ability to say in front of this collective body her belief in extrasensory perception and what she's done in that domain.

I called her up and said geez you're brave says no I'm telling you the truth and it's just a brilliant piece and and the introduction is longer than her talk in the seven minute section.

I I thought I knew her really well. We were good friends and spent time at her house and she and her longtime not her husband my be a common law husband if it were um and we um she said it has to happen.

Very very impressive that's real stuff. Yeah yeah I'd love to uh she'd be good for you to interview her have a chat with her yeah that would be fascinating so nineteen ninety five it sounds like Stargate came to an end what was what was the decision that led to that why why did they end it?

Good question that's a really good question um first of all there was what's called a CDA a congressionally directed activity that the Congress ordered the CIA to do a 20 year retrospective of this whole program and if they felt that there was quality in this program they were then to take over the program from DIA.

Okay and um so they hired the American Institutes of Research to do the study supposed to be a 20 year retrospective and they produced an I what's called the AIR part American Institutes of Research Report very big thick document they wouldn't give me a copy of it.

Okay um they gave Jessica a copy she they had Jessica and Ray Hyman as as counters to each other a skeptic and a believer and um I walked into Senator Cohen's office at the time he was still senator and I said hey uh I don't have a copy of the AI report oh here's mine take it he then said you think you can refute this and I said well yeah and um he said well write an article and pull no punches which I did and got it published in the Journal of Parapsychology everything I said in that article was wrong.

They only looked at one year over instead of 20 that was correct but that's not why they closed the program down. And it wasn't until we had released by the CIA all the stuff they to they said why the program closed.

What happened was and we have the quotes and it's in volume four of the Stargate archives that the Cold War was basically over and the Congress was saying we've got all this money going to the Intel community we don't need to have that much money anymore.

So the Congress ordered CIA to slim down get rid of all these small programs and if you don't do that they threaten to close the CIA actually not our view that's in in release by the CIA themselves.

And I think the reason it closed is that we just were on the chopping block along with a whole bunch of other programs negating everything I said in my original paper.

Man what do you think of that? Well when a guy from um the Pentagon and I spent with Joe 10 years trying to get Stargate started again, um the working stiffs and defense analysts and so on loved the product that we had but upper management said no.

And I think that's too bad especially with terrorism these days now I'm convinced that no way in hell are they doing it secretly you don't think so I do not my clearances have all dissolved so I don't I don't really know.

What why do you think they're not doing this under a different name, under a different program? Yep with I hope they are doing it but I don't think so because there is was so much pushback.

The only reason our program survived is we had a bunch of heroes. John Glenn was a hero Senator Cohen was a hero two other people and I can't remember their names right now they protected us against from the wolves who were trying to shut us down.

And the same thing happened with 407 in in Russia they tried to shut him down and he they were the head of the general staff was supporting it so they couldn't close it down.

People are terrified of this stuff. In fact Charlie Tarte wrote a whole book about uh article rather not a book about the um fear of psi for example if you really believed in telepathy get out of my fucking head man I'm thinking about stuff that you have no business knowing what it should be.

And people really get scared of that. Do you believe in telepathy? I believe that it's impossible. And the reason is this you and I are gonna do a telepathy experiment right now.

I'm thinking of a number between one and a thousand what is it come on out with it. 703. I take my pistol shoot myself in the head I carry myself to the grave knowing you got the right answer.

Oops I just told you you got the right answer. So the question is where did you get the information? Did you get it out of my mind or the feedback?

The only way I can prevent it the only way you could possibly get it out of my mind is to kill myself but the minute you find that the answer if you have access if there's an answer book which there isn't when I'm dead you um it's not an experiment anymore please help me understand what you're saying.

Okay. Because I'm not I'm not receiving it. Okay you pick a number from one through a thousand I say seven hundred and three you kill yourself why do you kill yourself?

Because if I say you got it right then the question is from where did you get the information out of my mind or from the feedback you got later?

What feedback? I told you the answer. You got it right. That's feedback.

Yeah if you were precognitive enough you'd look into the future you're getting a pat on the top of your head because you got the answer right whatever the the way to think about this if you were in college and a scuzzball and you're having an important exam that is going to affect the rest of your life so you sneak into the professor's office and there's an answer book in there from the questionnaire and you study it really carefully or maybe even photograph it, boy you're gonna do really well on the exam.

Suppose you could do that pre cognitively you're gonna do really well on the psychic exam, so to speak. In fact we use that terminology in our writing peeking into the answer book.

If it if if a study does not have an answer it's not a study now the answer may not be what you want it may be different than what you want but there is some result and the result we consider as the answer book and you have access to that by precognition that in fact we Sonali and I wrote a paper together collapsing the problem space of inter of informational side people getting information by psychic means.

So are you saying I looked into the future to get 703, saw you tell me good job. Yep, came back said the number yeah now if I'd kill myself you you never get that now we didn't invent this kind of stuff.

I mean we we we uh concretized it by doing the arithmetic and all the stuff that you need to do to to make sure that it's real. It simplifies things.

Precognition simplifies the whole game and we don't know how to stop looking into the future you could say well I'm getting it from direct well you how do you know you don't know that the big mystery is how the hell the information gets there in the first place.

For example Sonali in India is going to generate from a collection of photographs one photograph tomorrow, but you're gonna remote view it today. How the hell does that work?

And it turns out we figured out to divide the problem space into two and a half actually problem space number one how does that information get from India tomorrow to right here today that is a hundred percent a physics problem.

Doesn't depend upon my nose or me or you or anybody it's a physics problem and they worry about it. In fact there's even a whole discipline supported by the American Institute of Physics called quantum retrocausation it is possible for information to go backward in time from the future to the present but the present cannot go backward in time to the past don't worry about why that's the case but it's true.

I want to know why that's the case. Because the past is it's quantum mechanics the the system has already been measured it's collapsed the state vector has collapsed you can't undo what's been done what's been done but until it's been done the it can influence the present.

Now that doesn't mean the way that's the way it works, but at least it's a plausibility argument how how the physics domain. There's a guy in in uh physics department of uh um Amsterdam in university there called um Erik Verlinda and he said we should throw away gravity as a force.

It's not a force which it isn't it's geometry. And there's a real problem with gravity there's no quantum base to it. So of the four basic forces that's the only one that doesn't have a quantum mechanical base.

So let's get rid of that and talk about entropy that and he derived Einstein field equations, Newton's equations and all the stuff of physics based on entropy. And I want to go talk to this guy because if it's an entropic force then there's a carrier the problem is every excuse me everything that we know about and getting information that can be used has a carrier associated with it.

So we need some carrier right now and we have no idea what it might be of information coming backward in time. But Fairlinda has has an idea that might be worth worthy of thought.

So that's half the problem let alone how it gets into your brain but once it's in the brain oh by the way the physics people can worry about and not care about extrasensory perception that's a physics problem.

All right once it's in the brain leave aside how it got there for a moment then it's a neuroscience problem they don't give a damn how it got there.

And there are the article we wrote uh working with the Brazilian folks this is testable about hyperconductivity in the brain and the white matter and so on, blah, blah, blah, all this technical stuff.

It's testable, might be wrong, but at least it's testable. The problem is what transfers whatever this is coming in into something the brain can recognize. We know about retinas in our eyes, we know about the sensory systems in our nose and so on, but we don't know a psychic retina, so to speak, for remote viewing.

What do you think it is? No idea. I really have no idea. I mean you don't lose sleep at night thinking about this? Oh I I think about it all the time.

You don't have theories I I'm not smart enough. I'm not a theorist that's the problem. You felt figure it I'll test it. It's a dip very difficult well what we're hoping for, and that's why we're taking Angela to um um do a what's called a case study, just her mushing her hand to an MRI machine.

If we are lucky, I mean really lucky her brain will be different um quantitatively different than large number of base brains that they look at. Highly unlikely that it will be but if it is different then we can say well it's different because of this, this, this, that, and the other thing that gives us a clue of how to see whether we can find psychics that way.

Wow. Yeah wow big time we're not counting on it by any stretch. A better approach to find subjects is to um get involved in the synesthesia community because since I I mentioned over breakfast that all of our participants are have synesthesia.

What is that? That's where you get crosstalk in your sensory systems. You um see black and white things in color um and so on. It's crosstalk of your sensory systems and oh we spoke about this at the beginning we spoke about that when you hear music and feel it in your okay okay man I can't just I mean it it's almost like there's some type of unknown organ that's that's at work that's receiving that information just like your nose, ears, eyes, mouth you know, touch.

Probably it's gonna be more distributed than that. In fact the only thing that I'm aware of and I could be wrong on this one that the only the Russians are big on identifying each part of the brain is associated with some behavior and that's simply not true, with one exception.

That is there's a very small part of our brain which is dedicated to face recognition. And uh Russell Tart for example that part is not functioning for him he can go to a party with his wife and not recognize her from other tall similar women because he cannot recognize her face.

The same with me. So if we're meeting for lunch I'll I'll he'll hear my voice I'll say hey Russ, good to see you again. At least he knows it's me.

And that's a very standard problem some people have this that for reasons unknown that part of their brain is not functioning properly. So I don't expect a little chunk over here for consciousness and a little chunk over here for liking salt.

You know seriously what this conversation with you has inspired me to maybe not resign and quit. It's too much fun. Keep going keep going you know with everything that you've studied and and and in are there any key are there any key things that make you believe everything that you've studied you know over the pe over the course of 49 years?

It's it's not an event it's it's collectiveness the whole thing I mean that for me it's self evident of this the number of successes in the operational work. Uh we're not cheating with that and you know there are skeptical people in your business looking at this and hey we want to come back with more study.

I mean even the CIA came back with us 41 times with new missions. They wouldn't do that if it weren't useful to them. After it was shut down no before it shut down before yeah so um no it's more the collective thing.

For me probably the most convincing evidence is that nine 17 of the 19 end users came back with more wanting more more stuff. Now we can go to statistics and Jessica will bore you to tear on the statistics but nobody nobody buys statistics.

Why bother? Good question um I've thought a lot about that because you know I've put a lot of effort in so a lot of colleagues around I mean I don't want to give the impression I'm the only guy doing this I'm not by any stretch.

I guess I'm relying on Chuck Onerton's view of that and I tend to agree with it that we made we humans are faced with really interesting questions about do we survive our deaths, for example.

Everybody's interested in that, including me can I have a brief comment on that before I go a little further I was invited as to be a participant at the Ramakrishna Mission Institute of Culture in Kolkata, India.

I was the resident materialist of a bunch and long story short there was a one of their monks was beating up on me and saying that there's something called promissory materialism.

I don't know if you've ever heard that term uh you're right I can't give you write down an equation for love but I promise you by next Thursday at two in the afternoon, well maybe a thousand years from next Tuesday we'll have an answer, right?

But so he started defending me on that promissory materialism. And he was a bright guy totally fluent English and and and and uh PowerPoint useful so I went up to him afterwards I said Swamiji your whole philosophy I love much better than mine that you survive your death and you get to do all this other stuff.

I wish that were true. Mine is last breath and that's it. And I said but you have to modernize you're basing it on philosophy with 3,000 years old. And that was before we knew about brains and about about um genetics and all that good stuff.

He said you have to modernize that and we worked for about five years together he and I over the over the net over over not wasn't Zoom in those days email to try to figure out ways in which to modernize this and we figured out he couldn't do it.

So it's it remains in the realm of philosophy at least he was interested in it and so was I so um that was a uh side side but you asked me um why do it because I think humans including me want to know the answers to these more spiritually oriented questions do we actually survive our death or better yet how do we communicate with one another we need to do a hell of a lot better job than we're doing now for sure.

And things of that nature what is consciousness is is Tannoni right about consciousness and and all of those questions maybe CyResearch as it current exists may not answer those questions but at least it's no new tools in the toolbox that someone later on will be able to use them and help help them answer those questions.

What do you think consciousness is I think it's an emergent property of our brain. Straightforward.

And Tononi, I think you know I buy Tanoni's story tremendously. I will send you a link to that book by the way you should you should get it. It's fabulous.

Thank you. Thank you. Edwin we're wrapping up the interview and um you know with all the stuff that you've been involved with and and all your studies outside of remote viewing what do you think we should be looking into?

As humans, you mean is there anything that's come across your radar that you think that that has to do with the subject? Oh okay that it could not it could be totally random but what I'm asking when it comes to ESP human sensory what haven't we touched?

What do people not know about? What should we be looking into? That's a good question. I mean I you know if I knew what we haven't touched I'd go touch it.

Um I'm more concerned politically where we're where we at as a culture, not only our country but similar countries around the world. And that's a big threat to everybody.

And this stuff's not going to help that at all I don't think but that to me is a bigger uh worry for me at the moment.

I think that's a worry for a lot of us no kidding Ed I just want to say thank you so much for coming on. Uh my pleasure it was far more interesting than I thought it would be to tell you the truth.

Oh man I could I could go on here but um how long have we been at this we've been going for about five hours now oh jeez so but four in between four and five hours.

Doesn't feel that way at all actually goes by quick doesn't it but uh is there anything that I should be asking you that I haven't asked so far? What do I do for fun?

That's a what do you do for fun? Well I used to play a lot of golf I'm horrible at it but I still like to play it. My wife tricked me into it damn it because I said I'm not a Republican I don't own one pair of checker pants buzz off so she uh conned me into it uh carrying her clubs one day and I said oh jeez and you're a physicist trouble is being a physicist and knowing about golf those are incompatible you should not worry about in your head what's happening to the ball and how it's gonna no the other thing is I I do a lot of walking in the San Francisco Bay Area long distances eleven miles at a crack that's pretty amazing for can I say your age?

Yeah of course an eighty three year old man you look no you screwed it eighty four eighty four yeah oh man we are in amazing hell no I'm on my eighty fourth trip around the sun I've been there it's boring yeah same old sun one last question yes sir with all of the remote viewing and and I've I've I've listened to I researched Joe for a long time before he finally came out here and um there was a lot of stuff when it comes to outer space are we alone that kind of stuff what do you think about that are we alone?

Well um who is it I'm forget the the um long since dead philosopher or semi philosopher he said we are his view was we're serially alone which is pretty interesting and the way he worded that was we've been only to announce ourselves as a species to outer space since the invention of radio.

So if there are other critters out there and you know the probability of critters being there is virtually unity if you look at the total number of first of the number of galaxies the number of stars in each galaxy and the number of planets that are M class planets like the Earth, I mean the probability that there's life elsewhere is in my view damn near unity for sure.

Now whether we'll be able to meet it is another question. But Carl Sagan and what he said was we're serially alone because in the years that it's been what 150 years since we had radio and intelligent species like we are are going to put ourselves out of business very quickly with with with global warming we're going to kill ourselves off.

So give us a thousand years from the invention of a radio the next thousand years we'll we'll all be gone he says that's inherent to other species as well so what's the probability of two 1,000 year trunks in five billion years it's very small that they're in that pretty interesting argument.

Whether it's true or not who the hell knows that is an interesting argument. I've never thought of it like that because we are I mean we're no one's paying I mean we are very serious I wrote my first paper scientific paper in the Journal of Geophysical Research in 1962 on upper atmospheric heating by high altitude water vapor.

And we even knew then that we are in a climate shift we had no idea then back then that us humans were as involved in it now there's no question.

Well thank you. I won't be around long enough to know whether we're burning ourselves up well Edwin I just want to say it was an honor to interview you and sit here and have this conversation and um honors returned to you sir thank you.

I am thank you very happy that we met and uh I just wish you the best thank you so much. Cheers when I'm doing research for the show, booking travel or communicating with guests I always browse the web incognito.

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