UFOpedia

Raw capture

Julian Dorey Podcast episode 240 with Jesse Michels (4 Oct 2024)

Julian Dorey Podcast episode 240 with Jesse Michels (4 Oct 2024)

The X excerpt begins with material from about 2:35:05 in this original interview but is edited rather than a continuous copy of the full segment. Names and punctuation in the caption transcript are machine-generated and may contain errors.

[00:00:02.320] You brought up a lot of amazing research
[00:00:04.000] today about anti-gravity and and
[00:00:05.680] projects that were going on in the 50s
[00:00:07.359] and 60s,
[00:00:08.080] but it starts in in Nazi Germany.
[00:00:10.400] Yeah.
[00:00:10.880] Yeah. And then do you know about like
[00:00:12.800] Commto? Have you heard of that?
[00:00:14.880] Fill me in.
[00:00:15.839] So there's a this SS officer named Hans
[00:00:18.160] Comler. He's the most ruthless Nazi like
[00:00:20.880] Albert Spear who was head of all
[00:00:22.320] armaments for the Nazis said Hans Conler
[00:00:24.960] was the most ruthless unscrupulous guy I
[00:00:27.680] was forced to collaborate with. You're
[00:00:29.359] talking about the Nazis worked with like
[00:00:30.800] Hitler and Gerbles and you know Himmler
[00:00:33.360] and he's he's saying that this guy is
[00:00:34.960] like the craziest most racist guy. By
[00:00:36.800] 1945 Hans Colmer was in charge of all
[00:00:39.440] aerial armaments for the Nazis, V2s,
[00:00:42.399] A4s, everything. And he had this secret
[00:00:45.760] weapons program called Commers
[00:00:48.960] and it was based in two places in
[00:00:50.719] Czechoslovakia and Poland. You had these
[00:00:53.199] three scientists Richard Mita who was
[00:00:55.280] doing high voltage stuff which is very
[00:00:56.879] similar to what Towns and Brown was
[00:00:58.239] doing. Rudolph Shriber who was this
[00:01:00.000] German technician who had it designed
[00:01:01.520] for a flying saucer and you had another
[00:01:03.199] guy named Victor Shawberger who lived in
[00:01:05.199] Austria who we know he said in his
[00:01:07.360] diaries it says or I think it was a
[00:01:08.960] letter to his son he says I'm in
[00:01:10.560] Czechoslovakia and what I'm doing is top
[00:01:12.320] secret so works was like a real thing
[00:01:14.799] and at the same time you had foo
[00:01:16.799] fighters which are these controlled
[00:01:18.640] balls of lightning with no vapor trails
[00:01:20.960] moving in and out of allied fighter
[00:01:22.640] flight paths and so you know originally
[00:01:25.600] around 45 it was thought that calm Ler
[00:01:28.799] died or disappeared. And now we know
[00:01:31.040] actually from a couple of declassified
[00:01:32.720] documents that Comm ended up in the US.
[00:01:34.799] Of course he did.
[00:01:35.439] And that that we took him back.
[00:01:38.110] [Music]
[00:01:42.159] What's up, guys? If you haven't already,
[00:01:44.000] please smash that subscribe button and
[00:01:45.600] hit that like button on the video. And
[00:01:46.960] if you don't have time to watch this
[00:01:48.560] episode right now, I'd really appreciate
[00:01:50.240] it if you saved it to your watch later
[00:01:52.159] playlist on YouTube. Finally, if you'd
[00:01:54.000] like to follow me on Instagram or X,
[00:01:56.000] those links are in my description below.
[00:01:59.439] Jesse Michaels, this is like 11 months
[00:02:01.840] in the making, my friend.
[00:02:03.840] Truly is. It's an honor to be here,
[00:02:05.680] dude. Thank you for coming, man.
[00:02:07.600] Thank you, Julian. We've had some good
[00:02:09.200] phone calls.
[00:02:10.000] We have. We have. you are without a
[00:02:13.280] doubt in the euphology space alone, but
[00:02:16.480] I would expand that and say within, you
[00:02:18.239] know, someone who's not literally a
[00:02:19.599] physicist or something like that, like
[00:02:20.959] in that space, you're the most well-
[00:02:23.040] readad person
[00:02:24.319] I've seen creating content, you got
[00:02:26.480] every Have you watched some of this
[00:02:28.000] guy's videos? Like where where every
[00:02:29.840] other line it's like, if you've ever
[00:02:31.599] read the book so and so, I'm like, god
[00:02:33.360] damn it,
[00:02:35.760] where do you get the time to read all
[00:02:37.120] those? I've usually read half of those
[00:02:39.120] books or like three quarters or like I
[00:02:42.000] don't know I I think uh
[00:02:43.680] sometime you've probably you know given
[00:02:45.599] your line of work we do very similar
[00:02:47.680] things you get into a topic you get so
[00:02:50.480] obsessed and you just need to find the
[00:02:52.480] answer from a specific book and then you
[00:02:54.080] end up like finding out all this other
[00:02:55.760] information and so I feel like I read a
[00:02:57.360] lot of books not honestly in this like
[00:02:59.920] leisurely way but like I'm like rumaging
[00:03:02.159] through them for like specific stuff and
[00:03:04.560] then you end up picking up a lot in the
[00:03:06.159] process and I I don't know.
[00:03:08.159] That's what I got before I ever did this
[00:03:09.840] podcast. That's what I got to do. Like
[00:03:11.519] reading is my favorite thing to do.
[00:03:13.200] But it's been like 4 and a half years of
[00:03:15.840] just like there's constantly something
[00:03:17.840] going on and and I when I read I fall
[00:03:20.480] asleep with it on with the Kindle on my
[00:03:22.159] face, you know, at night after like two
[00:03:24.400] pages and it's killing me because I used
[00:03:27.440] to be able to not maybe not on your
[00:03:29.040] level, but I used to be able to be like,
[00:03:30.159] "Yeah, if you read this book, I read
[00:03:31.360] that." And now I'm like, "I got to catch
[00:03:32.799] the up there." And it's crazy. But what
[00:03:36.319] how did you a lot of people on the
[00:03:38.799] internet kind of wonder about your
[00:03:41.200] background and how you ended up you know
[00:03:43.680] you're not old knowing all this stuff
[00:03:45.760] about this space and really being a
[00:03:47.440] thought leader and we'll get to your
[00:03:48.959] connections with David Grush and all
[00:03:50.480] that but how did you even end up working
[00:03:52.640] with Peter Teal investing his money? How
[00:03:54.720] does this happen?
[00:03:55.440] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny nobody
[00:03:57.120] really asked me that on podcast. I uh I
[00:03:59.760] cold reached out to him and then we got
[00:04:02.000] lunch and hit it off and uh
[00:04:05.280] yeah and um uh I pitched him on all
[00:04:08.319] sorts of things in that first meeting. I
[00:04:09.920] was like we should write a book together
[00:04:11.760] and I had all these crazy ideas and I
[00:04:13.920] think he looked at me and he was like
[00:04:15.040] you're insane. Like what are you talking
[00:04:16.479] about? Like I just met you. And then um
[00:04:18.959] did you slide into his DMs? Is that what
[00:04:20.720] you did?
[00:04:21.120] I I won't No, I didn't slide into his
[00:04:23.360] DMs. It was a conventional way of
[00:04:25.120] reaching out, but I I won't say where
[00:04:26.960] because I don't want him to get blown up
[00:04:28.479] on, you know, whatever it is. But, uh,
[00:04:31.360] yeah, messaged him and, uh, or emailed
[00:04:34.479] him or whatever, you know, who knows.
[00:04:36.400] And, uh, for whatever reason, he got
[00:04:38.479] back to me and I I remember actually,
[00:04:40.400] um, I was like with a friend when he got
[00:04:41.919] back to me. I was like, I think Peter
[00:04:43.440] Teal just got back to me and he was
[00:04:45.360] like, that's not him. Like, what are you
[00:04:47.280] talking about? I was at Google at the
[00:04:49.759] time.
[00:04:50.639] Um,
[00:04:51.199] how old are you?
[00:04:52.000] I was 25. Okay.
[00:04:53.759] And um and then yeah uh kind of saw eye
[00:04:57.520] to eye on a bunch of things and pitched
[00:05:00.320] him on all sorts of things that made no
[00:05:01.759] sense and were like way above my pay
[00:05:03.199] grade uh like writing a book, you know,
[00:05:06.240] whatever. And then we kind of landed on
[00:05:08.639] he was like, "Okay, this kid has like
[00:05:09.919] some spunk, you know, he's kind of
[00:05:11.520] interested in a lot of things. He
[00:05:12.639] clearly like understands like some of
[00:05:14.160] my, you know, ideology."
[00:05:16.320] And uh I started to bring in
[00:05:18.720] opportunities, you know, companies to
[00:05:20.400] invest in, interesting people to meet,
[00:05:22.080] that sort of thing. And that was almost
[00:05:23.199] like a deacto interview. Like I had
[00:05:24.800] known him for three or four months
[00:05:26.639] before getting a full-time job. And then
[00:05:28.160] it kind of came to a breaking point
[00:05:29.360] where I was having so much more fun with
[00:05:32.000] the work I was doing with him versus
[00:05:34.160] being just like a bee in a hive, you
[00:05:35.840] know, cog in the machine at Google.
[00:05:37.919] And uh yeah, and then have worked with
[00:05:40.880] him ever since. uh full-time for four
[00:05:43.199] years and then uh for the last two and a
[00:05:45.280] half years uh kind of have my own P&L
[00:05:47.840] that I invest out of uh through the
[00:05:50.400] family office basically.
[00:05:52.080] Okay. So when you worked were you with
[00:05:53.840] Founders Fund when you were working with
[00:05:55.360] them directly?
[00:05:56.000] Uh family office. So Teal Capital. Yeah.
[00:05:58.400] So but now you're investing money
[00:06:00.479] through that. That's your money and also
[00:06:02.639] like
[00:06:03.440] I do I do invest like a lot of my own
[00:06:06.479] money but it's uh you know nothing
[00:06:09.199] compared to what we invest you know
[00:06:12.080] meaning you're allocating towards
[00:06:13.600] projects as a venture
[00:06:15.120] capital exactly and you could think of
[00:06:16.479] him as like the sole LP like he it's a
[00:06:18.720] family office so it's just his money and
[00:06:20.240] then I'm helping him by sourcing
[00:06:22.160] investments essentially.
[00:06:23.600] Yeah. Again though, like you know,
[00:06:25.759] you've obviously if if you're impressing
[00:06:27.840] Peter Teal when you're 25 with like your
[00:06:30.479] eye for a company or like an idea, there
[00:06:33.680] has to be obviously a lot of studious
[00:06:37.039] work that gets you that point, but there
[00:06:38.400] has to be like an innate talent. So was
[00:06:40.639] were you like one of those teenagers
[00:06:42.319] that was just like looking at the latest
[00:06:43.919] startup and trying to figure out what
[00:06:45.199] made it go? You know, I did like right
[00:06:48.319] before I met him, I made like a
[00:06:51.199] Princeton review of startups kind. So,
[00:06:54.240] it's like at like when you're picking
[00:06:55.520] which college to go to, you have like
[00:06:57.759] the Princeton Review, you have like, you
[00:06:59.520] know, the uh US News World Report or
[00:07:01.840] whatever. And like these are like mostly
[00:07:03.360] kind of BS or whatever. But in certain
[00:07:05.440] cases, they give you information on
[00:07:07.520] which school you want to go to based on
[00:07:09.039] criteria that you're interested in. And
[00:07:11.039] I always thought if you're joining a
[00:07:12.479] startup, you really are like you have to
[00:07:15.199] think like a VC. You have to think like
[00:07:16.479] a venture capitalist. Like 90% of those
[00:07:18.479] are just not going to work out. And so I
[00:07:20.639] was like bored of my job at Google. And
[00:07:22.960] so I was like reviewing a bunch of these
[00:07:24.960] startups, like thinking about which ones
[00:07:26.560] I thought would do well and which ones I
[00:07:28.240] wouldn't. At the time I had no idea what
[00:07:30.080] I was doing, but I did that. And then I
[00:07:32.560] also like for a little bit I was
[00:07:34.560] sourcing like I I met Ashton Kutcher
[00:07:37.199] randomly when I was at Google through
[00:07:39.280] some people. It's super random, but I I
[00:07:42.080] was like scouting for Sound Ventures,
[00:07:44.400] his like venture capital group in LA.
[00:07:46.560] That's right. He has that.
[00:07:47.840] Yeah, he has that. And he's actually
[00:07:48.880] like very serious about it. And so like
[00:07:51.360] I don't know. I like I had this deal
[00:07:52.880] with Angel List where if I sourced stuff
[00:07:56.319] for other VCs and other other investors,
[00:07:59.199] like I could get some carry or
[00:08:00.639] something. So I had I had that for a
[00:08:02.560] brief period and I didn't even do any
[00:08:04.800] deals with it. It was like two or three
[00:08:06.240] months before meeting Peter and I was
[00:08:07.599] doing the reviews and stuff. So, I was
[00:08:08.879] getting into it, but I was at Google. I
[00:08:10.800] was like, you know, an employee at a big
[00:08:12.240] tech company. So,
[00:08:14.000] uh I don't know, man. Yeah, it's kind of
[00:08:15.680] crazy. I I feel very lucky and a lot of
[00:08:18.160] serendipity, I think, was involved.
[00:08:20.000] But even if you're like a cog on the
[00:08:21.680] wheel, so to speak, at a major company
[00:08:23.759] like that, you're still
[00:08:25.680] basically like coming out of college
[00:08:27.440] working at Google, you have access to
[00:08:31.280] learning about how things work on a
[00:08:33.120] level that you don't get at most say
[00:08:35.200] corporate places.
[00:08:36.560] For sure. Definitely. And I think the
[00:08:38.479] seeds of what I'm doing now with
[00:08:39.919] interviewing people were really planted
[00:08:42.800] may maybe at Google actually before that
[00:08:44.480] like in college I interned for Charlie
[00:08:47.200] Rose and for John Stewart the Daily Show
[00:08:49.120] and stuff. So
[00:08:50.800] who the are you?
[00:08:53.279] What agency do you work for?
[00:08:55.120] What agency do you work for?
[00:08:59.440] I think I think like the autocomplete of
[00:09:01.600] like Julian Dory CIA.
[00:09:05.760] It was all one viral curlyhaired.
[00:09:08.800] That was it.
[00:09:10.080] Andrew Bamata. That's who we were
[00:09:11.519] talking about before.
[00:09:12.080] That's who we're talking about. I love
[00:09:13.519] you, Andrew.
[00:09:15.760] Uh yeah, I want to interview. He sounds
[00:09:17.680] interesting. Um he's everywhere. He
[00:09:20.240] really is everywhere. Uh so yeah, so the
[00:09:24.000] seeds were probably planted earlier as
[00:09:25.360] far as interviewing people, but at
[00:09:26.640] Google, I was kind of getting a little
[00:09:28.320] bored in my job, and I had a friend who
[00:09:32.640] basically ran talks at Google. So like
[00:09:34.640] the the TED talks at at Google or
[00:09:36.800] whatever. And he was like, "Look, you
[00:09:38.560] know, I know you're you're you know, not
[00:09:40.000] the happiest in your job. If you want to
[00:09:42.160] bring in anybody who's like high-profile
[00:09:44.320] or interesting, you just hit them up,
[00:09:46.720] bring them in, and I I'll give you cart
[00:09:48.560] launch. Like you can you can interview
[00:09:50.000] whoever you want as part of, you know,
[00:09:51.839] toxic Google." And so I just started to
[00:09:53.680] do that. And that was actually the
[00:09:55.040] context in which I uh got in touch with
[00:09:57.760] Peter is I was like, "Hey, you should
[00:09:59.120] come in and, you know, speak at Google."
[00:10:01.839] Hey guys, for the next 45 minutes of
[00:10:03.920] this conversation, Jesse and I went on a
[00:10:05.920] long tangent about things that have
[00:10:07.519] nothing to do with the rest of the
[00:10:08.880] podcast that you guys are here for and
[00:10:10.240] what you clicked on. So, he and I made a
[00:10:11.920] decision for me to put that on my
[00:10:13.519] Patreon if you guys want to check that
[00:10:15.120] out. That link is in the description
[00:10:16.480] below. We're going to skip ahead now to
[00:10:18.480] exactly what you clicked on. But let's
[00:10:20.880] let's get to the fun stuff, Jesse.
[00:10:22.640] That's why that's why I got you here.
[00:10:24.480] Awesome.
[00:10:25.040] You are the host of
[00:10:27.440] American Alchemy,
[00:10:28.800] and your channel's now officially called
[00:10:30.320] Jesse Michaels. You changed the name of
[00:10:31.839] it.
[00:10:32.000] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:10:32.959] But the show is still American Alchemy.
[00:10:34.959] Yeah. Yeah.
[00:10:35.839] Okay. So, Jesse Michaels American
[00:10:37.279] Alchemy. We'll have the link in
[00:10:38.399] description. And dude, your sitdowns are
[00:10:43.839] amazing.
[00:10:44.480] Thank you, man. I really appreciate
[00:10:45.600] that.
[00:10:46.000] Like, you are It makes sense that you
[00:10:47.920] were doing Google. That's a pretty high
[00:10:50.480] level place with high level people to do
[00:10:52.079] it because as an interviewer, you are
[00:10:54.720] excellent and you get a lot out of your
[00:10:57.200] people. Your most recent one, I think,
[00:10:59.519] was the Danny Shehan one, which
[00:11:02.160] thank you for hooking him up to come in
[00:11:03.760] here. I'm looking forward to that. But
[00:11:05.279] that
[00:11:05.519] stayed
[00:11:06.240] that sit down was amazing and the amount
[00:11:09.519] of information you were able to get him
[00:11:12.480] to go into because of your own knowledge
[00:11:14.160] is is extremely impressive. But, you
[00:11:16.640] know, I I guess you laid out the history
[00:11:19.360] of it. You were talking with people at
[00:11:21.040] Google and then you helped out Eric
[00:11:22.720] build the portal. But at what point were
[00:11:25.279] you like, "Hey,
[00:11:27.120] I'm really interested in say eupfology,
[00:11:30.399] physics, and some esoteria, if you will.
[00:11:34.079] I want to go start my own channel."
[00:11:36.480] Yeah, it was the pandemic hit. Eric
[00:11:39.200] stopped doing the portal. And I think
[00:11:41.120] the pandemic for a lot of people is like
[00:11:42.720] this forcing function to like do what
[00:11:44.399] you're supposed to do in life. And I had
[00:11:46.079] had that throughine of like the toxic
[00:11:47.760] Google, the bringing in interesting
[00:11:49.920] speakers or whatever in the in the teal
[00:11:51.920] orbit. and uh you know working for
[00:11:54.640] Charlie Rose back in the day and for
[00:11:56.480] John Stewart and stuff. And so it was
[00:11:58.240] always this itch of like you know maybe
[00:11:59.920] I could actually interview people myself
[00:12:01.680] and maybe start a show or something. But
[00:12:03.680] it was always kind of in the back of my
[00:12:05.040] head and then the pandemic hit. you find
[00:12:06.800] yourself with like, you know, time. I
[00:12:09.120] think existential questions get pulled
[00:12:11.040] forward and Eric, you know, stops the
[00:12:14.000] portal and I'm like, "Okay, like, you
[00:12:15.839] know, maybe I'll maybe I'll try my own
[00:12:17.680] hand at this." And there are a lot of
[00:12:19.279] these kind of fringe topics at the time
[00:12:21.040] that I don't even it wasn't like a
[00:12:22.959] cynical thing like, "Oh, I think this is
[00:12:24.880] going to get bigger." I was just
[00:12:26.160] interested in it like like the UFO
[00:12:28.000] stuff. I was just really like I I think
[00:12:31.040] anomalies in science are kind of like
[00:12:33.360] tells on like what the next on the next
[00:12:35.279] paradigm. And so I viewed the the the
[00:12:37.680] UFO thing as like this very interesting
[00:12:40.240] like glitch in in the fabric of reality
[00:12:42.639] that point to where we're going next.
[00:12:45.519] And so that just like took me down these
[00:12:47.040] crazy rabbit holes. This show is
[00:12:48.720] sponsored by BetterHelp. I hate the
[00:12:50.800] feeling of hiding in plain sight. You
[00:12:52.560] know, when you have all those feelings
[00:12:54.079] bottled up inside of you and you don't
[00:12:55.839] feel like you have anyone you can trust
[00:12:57.440] to explain them to. October is the
[00:12:59.519] season for masks and costumes, but some
[00:13:01.519] of us feel like we're wearing them when
[00:13:03.120] we don't want to. At work, in social
[00:13:05.279] settings, around our family, therapy can
[00:13:07.600] help you accept all parts of yourself so
[00:13:09.760] that you can take off the mask because
[00:13:11.440] masks should be for Halloween fun, not
[00:13:13.440] our emotions. You've heard me talk on my
[00:13:15.279] podcast about how therapy has benefited
[00:13:17.120] me a couple times in the past. If I
[00:13:18.880] hadn't had a true professional to vent
[00:13:20.720] to, someone who could really help me
[00:13:22.399] understand my emotions and make sense of
[00:13:24.240] them, I would have had a lot more
[00:13:25.680] trouble getting through those
[00:13:26.720] situations. So, if you're thinking about
[00:13:28.399] starting therapy like I did, give
[00:13:30.160] BetterHelp a try. BetterHelp is entirely
[00:13:32.560] online, designed to be convenient,
[00:13:34.480] flexible, and suited to your schedule.
[00:13:36.240] All you have to do is fill out a brief
[00:13:37.839] questionnaire to get matched with a
[00:13:39.279] licensed therapist, and you can switch
[00:13:40.959] therapists at any time for no added
[00:13:43.120] charge. Take off the mask with
[00:13:44.959] BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com/julen
[00:13:48.000] to get 10% off your first month today.
[00:13:50.720] That's betterhelp.com/julen
[00:13:54.560] to get 10% off your first month. And you
[00:13:56.720] can find that link in my description
[00:13:58.320] below. And that was right around a time
[00:14:00.399] when in when in my life I was
[00:14:02.320] experiencing like a lot of kind of
[00:14:04.320] trippy stuff. M.
[00:14:05.600] And so that
[00:14:07.279] um
[00:14:08.800] right when the pandemic hit, I like saw
[00:14:12.160] a couple of UFOs actually like in a
[00:14:14.240] short period of time and uh where one
[00:14:19.120] was in Laurel Canyon where I lived in LA
[00:14:22.560] and kind of crazy. And then um the other
[00:14:25.920] was in Silver Lake actually. And then I
[00:14:28.320] I guess I saw a third. Um but that was
[00:14:30.320] like far in the distance. And uh so like
[00:14:33.040] that was a little more more unclear.
[00:14:35.279] What did you see
[00:14:36.800] in each case?
[00:14:37.920] Well, let's start with the first one.
[00:14:39.279] So yeah, so Laurel Canyon, it was
[00:14:42.079] actually really it's a really trippy
[00:14:43.519] story. I was uh walking uh with this
[00:14:46.480] girl I was kind of dating at the time.
[00:14:48.560] Beautiful Costa Rican girl, really nice.
[00:14:51.279] Um, and we we were we were walking and
[00:14:54.320] for whatever reason like alien like one
[00:14:57.120] of us brings up aliens like do you
[00:14:58.480] believe in aliens? And I was like,
[00:15:00.240] "Yeah, like I'm I'm actually kind of
[00:15:02.000] interested in that." And she was like,
[00:15:03.519] "I definitely believe in aliens." And I
[00:15:05.360] was like, "I would love to like meet an
[00:15:06.880] alien. That would be awesome." Like
[00:15:08.079] we're just I don't know, like messing
[00:15:09.519] around. And um she's like, "It'll happen
[00:15:13.199] when you least expect it." And I'm like,
[00:15:16.160] "What?" I'm like, "That interesting."
[00:15:18.079] But like, you know, that was like this
[00:15:19.360] really interesting like point that she
[00:15:20.720] it was kind of like this philosophical
[00:15:22.079] point that she was making. And we're
[00:15:24.399] walking by a guy who has a metal
[00:15:27.199] detector and he's like I don't know like
[00:15:30.240] like like panning for gold or something,
[00:15:32.160] but it's in Laurel Canyon and it's like
[00:15:35.040] it's sundown. It's like I don't know
[00:15:36.639] 6:30 or 7 or something. Like it makes
[00:15:38.320] like no s like why is this guy with like
[00:15:40.000] a metal detector? He's like looking for
[00:15:41.279] it as she's saying like this will happen
[00:15:43.519] when you stop looking for it. And so
[00:15:45.839] like we walk by this guy and I'm like,
[00:15:48.800] "Okay, like cool." We like move on to
[00:15:51.040] other subjects or whatever and we're
[00:15:52.560] having like a great time and I just see
[00:15:55.600] like this clearing like above the, you
[00:15:58.320] know, the Laurel Canyon's full of trees.
[00:16:00.399] So this little clearing and just this
[00:16:03.920] crazy craft, not like a a um not like a
[00:16:08.639] a circular craft. Like it looks like a
[00:16:11.279] school bus or something in the air. It's
[00:16:13.440] the weirdest looking thing. I've had a
[00:16:15.519] couple of people who I've told the story
[00:16:16.959] to send me like possible analoges of
[00:16:20.320] this thing since. Um, but it looked like
[00:16:23.199] nothing I could just ever explain.
[00:16:25.360] How close?
[00:16:26.399] Maybe 50 60 feet. Like not far. Yeah.
[00:16:30.079] And it just like goes over the treetops
[00:16:32.160] and I'm like, "What the hell is that?"
[00:16:34.399] And then she says that she saw it keep
[00:16:37.920] going over the treetops and then like
[00:16:39.920] vertically descend like down. Yeah. And
[00:16:43.279] I I I didn't see that part. Um but like
[00:16:46.480] yeah, that was like a really trippy
[00:16:48.160] experience where I was like, "What the
[00:16:49.759] hell was that?"
[00:16:50.880] And this is just a regular walk.
[00:16:52.639] It's just a regular walk.
[00:16:53.600] Sober chilling.
[00:16:54.560] Sober chilling. Yeah. Not on anything.
[00:16:57.440] Um Yeah. I mean, you could like We could
[00:17:00.720] bring her on. She's still a friend of
[00:17:02.160] mine.
[00:17:03.519] She She would corroborate it.
[00:17:04.480] You kick them around. But so that's like
[00:17:07.439] 2020 or
[00:17:09.439] this was 20
[00:17:12.240] 20.
[00:17:14.000] Yeah, this is 20 because it was after
[00:17:15.039] the pan. Yeah.
[00:17:15.839] So like that happens.
[00:17:17.520] Yeah.
[00:17:17.839] Is there a moment the next day where
[00:17:19.280] you're like holy
[00:17:20.880] or does it happen like right away where
[00:17:22.240] you're like holy?
[00:17:23.280] No. I mean right away you're like this
[00:17:25.280] is insane. Like what is this? But it
[00:17:27.760] weirdly I think if you're into the topic
[00:17:30.400] it was more like confirming. It was
[00:17:32.320] like, okay, like at that point I had
[00:17:34.400] like been plugged in and like I had met
[00:17:36.400] Jacques Valle and I had met Gary Nolan,
[00:17:38.799] some of these people and like I I I had
[00:17:42.320] felt like, you know, okay, this stuff is
[00:17:44.480] real. And so it it wasn't like insanely
[00:17:48.559] onlogically shocking. It was more like
[00:17:50.240] confirming. It was more like, oh, you
[00:17:51.760] really should like look look at into
[00:17:53.520] this stuff because like I think this
[00:17:55.120] stuff is really real.
[00:17:56.400] Yeah. How when when was the first like I
[00:18:00.080] I always say when when we're talking
[00:18:01.679] about this topic I had not
[00:18:04.000] my whole life I just assumed aliens
[00:18:05.919] existed. It was mathematically like this
[00:18:07.760] galaxy's huge. There's life out there.
[00:18:09.760] Never thought about it.
[00:18:10.880] It wasn't like I was sitting there like
[00:18:12.160] wow I wonder where they are.
[00:18:13.520] And then my producer Allessie who's not
[00:18:16.240] here today
[00:18:17.600] he went and made moment of contact with
[00:18:19.919] James Fox in Brazil.
[00:18:21.919] Yeah. and I was really getting to know
[00:18:23.840] him well at the time and he knew so much
[00:18:26.000] about this stuff and he really got me
[00:18:28.160] I'm like ah
[00:18:29.520] he got me bit and so I really started
[00:18:32.320] looking into it and looking at the
[00:18:33.600] history of it or whatever but like were
[00:18:35.440] you someone
[00:18:37.039] as a little even like as a little kid
[00:18:39.280] you were reading up on this and and
[00:18:40.799] things like it was always there or did
[00:18:42.640] it really come later once you were
[00:18:44.480] meeting the Jacqu fillets of the world?
[00:18:46.400] Not it not any UFOs. I I always I think
[00:18:49.120] I had like a trippy worldview as a kid.
[00:18:51.760] Like I I didn't think of it as that, but
[00:18:54.320] I had this godfather um who like writes
[00:18:58.400] books with my So my dad's like a
[00:18:59.840] self-help author and psychologist. And
[00:19:01.840] my godfather is this guy named Phil
[00:19:03.360] Stuts who uh Jonah Hill actually made a
[00:19:06.000] Netflix documentary about um and he's
[00:19:08.720] this like really trippy psychiatrist who
[00:19:12.000] like is very interested in like Rudolph
[00:19:13.840] Steiner and like I don't know if you're
[00:19:15.840] familiar with that. This is like um 19th
[00:19:19.120] 19th century and early 20th century
[00:19:22.080] Austrian philosopher, but he's very
[00:19:24.160] interested in like esotericism and has
[00:19:25.919] like this like wacky alternative
[00:19:27.360] worldview that involves the Ark of the
[00:19:29.760] Covenant, like different like
[00:19:30.880] civilizational cycles. Like he's claimed
[00:19:33.200] to like be like kind of clairvoyant and
[00:19:34.880] like see like lights around people's
[00:19:36.559] head, like really trippy stuff. But then
[00:19:38.480] he's also like one of the forefathers of
[00:19:40.160] like modern organic farming techniques.
[00:19:42.640] So I always look for like the
[00:19:44.240] intersection between rigor and trippy. I
[00:19:46.960] think there's a lot of the trippy woo
[00:19:48.320] stuff and you can kind of like out of
[00:19:49.840] you know out of hand dismiss a lot of
[00:19:51.520] that stuff. But when you see like trippy
[00:19:53.840] and you know um also rigorous and like
[00:19:56.080] how the person's contributed to the real
[00:19:57.919] world like that that that's always been
[00:19:59.760] very interesting you know as a
[00:20:01.039] heruristic and so I was into into
[00:20:03.679] Steiner and like I you know read some of
[00:20:05.440] this stuff but I'd always
[00:20:06.320] compartmentalize it. I was always like
[00:20:07.840] you know this is like this this stuff's
[00:20:09.520] real over here. like I was a history
[00:20:11.120] major and like you know uh uh always
[00:20:14.640] very ambitious and like a worldly sense
[00:20:17.039] and then the trippy stuff that was just
[00:20:19.679] like kind of like a fun thing or
[00:20:21.200] something and then I think the two
[00:20:22.880] started to cohhere maybe a little pre-
[00:20:25.520] pandemic like I I'd read American Cosmic
[00:20:28.240] by Diana Pulka. She's this um religious
[00:20:31.200] scholar
[00:20:32.480] uh religious studies professor from UNCC
[00:20:34.400] Wilmington and she wrote about the UFO
[00:20:36.720] thing is like a modern kind of uh
[00:20:38.960] religious phenomena and she wrote it's
[00:20:42.640] such a trippy book man because like the
[00:20:44.880] first half of the book is like this
[00:20:46.960] almost like literary critique of modern
[00:20:49.520] ufology where it's like uh this thing
[00:20:52.240] was like built in like a Disney studio.
[00:20:53.840] It's like a scout like like media like
[00:20:56.320] shades the way we perceive and recollect
[00:20:59.120] a lot of these UFO experiences which by
[00:21:00.960] the way I do believe. Um but you you you
[00:21:04.320] halfway through the book and you're like
[00:21:05.600] oh this is like not a real thing. Like
[00:21:09.039] this is this is fully fabricated and
[00:21:10.880] constructed. This is like a deep state
[00:21:12.480] thing or whatever that they want you to
[00:21:14.080] believe in UFO whatever. Maybe it's like
[00:21:16.880] experiment with cult creation or like
[00:21:18.880] look at like belief system. I don't
[00:21:20.400] there there various ways you could spin
[00:21:23.120] it, you know, tech protection, whatever.
[00:21:25.280] Um, and then like halfway through you
[00:21:27.840] realize she's actually like starting to
[00:21:29.520] go down into like the rabbit hole of
[00:21:31.120] like UFO stuff and like the the observer
[00:21:33.520] and the observed like kind of like, you
[00:21:36.320] know, meld or whatever. And like all of
[00:21:38.159] a sudden she doesn't have like this
[00:21:39.360] impartial distance and like she becomes
[00:21:41.600] this like UFO convert in a sense herself
[00:21:44.400] and it's just such a like mind [ __ ]
[00:21:46.880] It's it really is is this trippy thing.
[00:21:49.039] You did a great podcast with her. Well,
[00:21:50.960] I mean, you do like documentaries. That
[00:21:52.480] was a great documentary interview sit
[00:21:54.400] down with Diana.
[00:21:56.799] She's she's the she's the best. She's
[00:21:58.480] awesome. And uh I think she's almost in
[00:22:00.480] some sense like a a modern mystic or
[00:22:02.240] something herself. Like she's a clearly
[00:22:03.679] like this intense truth seeker. Um so I
[00:22:07.280] think the two cohered like around, you
[00:22:09.280] know, the the kind of trippy random, you
[00:22:11.520] know, history of intellectual history
[00:22:14.480] and then the UFO stuff really cohered
[00:22:16.480] around the pandemic. And interestingly,
[00:22:18.720] I think there were a record number of
[00:22:20.320] UFO sightings in 2020 as well, just like
[00:22:22.880] in mass and large. I think the pandemic
[00:22:25.840] itself when you pause and you evaluate
[00:22:29.360] your life and you're like at home and
[00:22:31.120] you're not like in this like kind of
[00:22:33.280] busy mindset I think you start to
[00:22:36.640] experience maybe an expanded worldview
[00:22:38.960] and you start to think about like some
[00:22:40.320] of these deeper existential questions
[00:22:42.640] and you know maybe maybe interact with
[00:22:44.640] other worlds or other timelines or you
[00:22:46.320] know I don't quite know how this stuff
[00:22:47.520] works. We can get into some of the
[00:22:48.640] theoretical models as to how it might
[00:22:50.320] but
[00:22:51.280] um I definitely experienced that myself.
[00:22:54.159] So
[00:22:54.799] what do you think, you know, when when
[00:22:58.080] you look at the potential that an
[00:23:00.799] advanced civilization, whether it be
[00:23:04.320] aliens or future humans, who I think by
[00:23:08.240] my definitions are aliens as well. You
[00:23:10.799] know, the fact that they allegedly show
[00:23:14.640] themselves, let's even assume that 99%
[00:23:17.520] of of claimed sightings aren't real.
[00:23:20.640] that still leaves, you know, at least
[00:23:22.320] some that are real. So, if they show
[00:23:24.559] themselves and yet they're supposed to
[00:23:26.080] be this highly advanced society that
[00:23:28.240] could be invisible, you know, move at
[00:23:31.280] the speed of light, so you can't be
[00:23:33.120] seen, walk among us, and not have people
[00:23:35.520] know it. Yet, they'll have these little
[00:23:37.600] tin cans in the sky, so to speak, that
[00:23:39.679] defy gravity that at least we could see.
[00:23:42.080] I've always wondered if that's the kind
[00:23:44.000] of thing where they could [ __ ] with us
[00:23:46.720] and they could simulate these things
[00:23:48.720] ahead of time, i.e. a UFO crash. What
[00:23:51.039] kind of advanced civilization is
[00:23:52.480] crashing like a basic [ __ ] crashing
[00:23:54.080] their [ __ ] Maserati after having two
[00:23:55.760] drinks? You know what I mean? Like,
[00:23:57.919] couldn't they simulate that ahead of
[00:23:59.440] time to be like, for example, 1994, the
[00:24:01.679] Zimbabwe sighting, let's see what
[00:24:03.760] happens when we put a couple little
[00:24:05.679] alien men in front of these six, seven,
[00:24:08.080] eightyear-old kids back in the woods and
[00:24:09.919] have them have telepathy with each other
[00:24:11.520] and then extrapolate that to see what
[00:24:13.679] happens when the kids tell all the
[00:24:15.039] adults about it and how it affects
[00:24:16.320] society. Yeah.
[00:24:16.960] Do you think it's possible that they
[00:24:18.320] could be that and we're totally guessing
[00:24:21.279] here obviously it's totally theoretical
[00:24:23.120] but do you think it's possible that they
[00:24:24.320] could be like simulating that stuff
[00:24:25.600] ahead of time as a part of you know
[00:24:27.600] their interest in us as a
[00:24:30.159] as a subject
[00:24:30.880] is that is what I think yeah like if
[00:24:32.640] you're running experiments on like this
[00:24:36.080] like snow globe of like little like you
[00:24:38.799] know critters ants or something or like
[00:24:40.559] like like this idea of like cellular
[00:24:42.320] automata where we're all like nodes or
[00:24:44.400] something. I think it's we don't know
[00:24:47.200] why these things are happening but if
[00:24:49.120] you wanted to sway you know society in
[00:24:51.760] some like different teologies or
[00:24:54.559] whatever like these things first of all
[00:24:57.279] it it has a lot
[00:24:58.880] teology like like a a direction with
[00:25:02.400] meaning but um
[00:25:03.679] so that's not a Peter Teal take
[00:25:05.679] no no no a teology like a phrase that he
[00:25:09.360] says or something that that's funny
[00:25:11.120] well you know Joseph
[00:25:12.880] yeah yeah right Um, no. Like, like I
[00:25:16.000] think if you're trying to like sway
[00:25:17.679] society, it's like if you're trying to
[00:25:19.520] get rats to run a prime number maze, you
[00:25:21.840] could do it with Pavlovian conditioning.
[00:25:23.520] Would the rats know that they're
[00:25:24.640] undergoing Pavlovian conditioning?
[00:25:26.080] They'd have no idea. But like you would
[00:25:27.600] as like this like, you know, more
[00:25:29.120] intelligent species.
[00:25:30.880] And so I think a lot of this stuff is
[00:25:33.360] inherently absurd. It's high
[00:25:34.880] strangeness. And how do you work on
[00:25:36.960] consciousness on like the consciousness
[00:25:38.960] layer? like you would like, you know,
[00:25:41.120] it's like the the the the um the Zen
[00:25:43.840] Cohen, the sound of one hand clapping.
[00:25:45.679] Like that confuses you like that like
[00:25:47.760] what is that? You know, that that's this
[00:25:49.679] like phrase that like Jacqu Valet
[00:25:51.279] himself like loves to bring up because
[00:25:53.520] it's like inherently this thing that
[00:25:54.880] scramles your brain and you're like what
[00:25:56.480] what the hell and then you like think
[00:25:57.679] about it over and over and over again.
[00:25:59.520] And so if something that happens to you
[00:26:01.200] that's like inexplicable or absurd, you
[00:26:04.240] know, it's like a a glimping, you know,
[00:26:07.760] beyond the veil or whatever in the
[00:26:09.360] platonic sense where, you know, it's
[00:26:12.000] like a, you know, there's actually a guy
[00:26:13.440] named James Madden who I want to
[00:26:14.880] interview who like writes about UFOs in
[00:26:16.960] this context. It's like a hyper object
[00:26:18.640] outside of the cave
[00:26:20.159] that causes you to contemplate another
[00:26:22.240] world, but it causes you to do it by
[00:26:24.400] literally like breaking all of your
[00:26:26.240] rational kind of priors. And so I think
[00:26:29.440] it's clearly working on that metal
[00:26:31.679] layer. Like do I believe like the people
[00:26:33.440] who are like you know Eisenhower in the
[00:26:35.279] 50s or whatever signed a treaty and it
[00:26:37.200] was like all the all the you know uh
[00:26:40.799] Yeah. Right. the Nordics and the grays
[00:26:42.559] and like you know we we became medical
[00:26:44.320] experiment subjects or whatever for you
[00:26:46.640] know in return for like some advanced
[00:26:48.640] technology or stuff like that. I don't I
[00:26:50.640] don't really think so. I think it's
[00:26:51.679] working on our consciousness layer. And
[00:26:54.640] I think even some of the like weird, you
[00:26:56.159] know, possible physical implants, which
[00:26:58.720] I'm vaguely sympathetic to without
[00:27:00.720] having like a ton of, you know,
[00:27:02.000] firsthand evidence. I, you know, you
[00:27:03.760] hear a lot of stuff around that. You
[00:27:06.400] know, even that would probably be more
[00:27:08.320] like just kind of [ __ ] with us a
[00:27:10.640] little bit and causing us to think a lot
[00:27:12.880] about what those things are, what what
[00:27:14.480] what are their motives and, you know,
[00:27:16.799] what do they what do they want from us?
[00:27:19.279] Um, and so yeah, I think I think
[00:27:21.360] something clearly around consciousness
[00:27:23.279] is happening where we're being primed.
[00:27:25.039] Our consciousness is being primed and
[00:27:26.559] that's moving us into the next epoch,
[00:27:29.279] whatever that means for humanity. But
[00:27:31.039] I'll tell you one thing, uh, if you just
[00:27:33.200] look at tech and where it is, uh, and
[00:27:37.279] where we are in our, you know, kind of
[00:27:38.720] primitive, you know, consciousness or
[00:27:40.960] whatever, it's it's it's not going to
[00:27:42.640] work like this. this this thing, you
[00:27:45.279] know, just a straight line, no teiology,
[00:27:48.240] uh, you know, very bad, very
[00:27:49.840] destructive. Yeah. Like that's just not
[00:27:51.600] we can't we're going to hit the great
[00:27:52.799] filter. So, um, the optimistic take, um,
[00:27:57.039] and maybe there's a dual, you know,
[00:27:58.720] they're they're factions, right? Maybe
[00:27:59.919] they're ones that are trying to enslave
[00:28:01.200] us and ones trying to raise our our
[00:28:02.559] consciousness or whatever. But like the
[00:28:03.840] optimistic streak of this is like it's
[00:28:06.240] causing you to like contemplate and
[00:28:07.760] think in a way that you wouldn't through
[00:28:09.360] like pure absurdity through like brain
[00:28:11.440] scrambling uh in a way that like will
[00:28:14.080] cause mankind to you know reach reach
[00:28:16.480] another level.
[00:28:17.840] Sure. But if if you go like the enslaved
[00:28:21.360] angle technically
[00:28:23.760] if we are the Pavlovian rats
[00:28:25.679] Yeah.
[00:28:26.080] that's a form of enslavement. We just
[00:28:27.919] don't know it. Sure. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:28:30.559] Cuz we're, you know, doing all this
[00:28:32.080] weird [ __ ] to each other,
[00:28:33.679] fighting over politics or, you know,
[00:28:37.200] people exercising free will and doing
[00:28:39.679] bad [ __ ] and they're like, "Oh, wow.
[00:28:42.320] Look at that. Look at what that rat
[00:28:43.520] did." Or whatever. And it's like we're
[00:28:45.200] in this blissful ignorance. But it does
[00:28:47.919] it gets it gets weird when you start to
[00:28:50.080] think of that and tie that to like
[00:28:51.919] consciousness and what that is. Yeah.
[00:28:53.840] Because of course where I go with this
[00:28:56.559] cuz my brain just that's what it thinks
[00:28:59.760] is it's like okay
[00:29:02.080] who who was God then is there a God and
[00:29:04.880] is there something above all this and
[00:29:06.799] does that mean it's above an alien
[00:29:09.039] civilization in this way right like is
[00:29:10.880] there something that created all these
[00:29:12.799] things across the galaxy that could be
[00:29:14.480] like that last scene in Men in Black
[00:29:16.080] where it's just you know we are a speck
[00:29:18.399] of a speck of a speck of a speck
[00:29:20.799] you know like do do you believe that
[00:29:22.640] there's like a creator that exists above
[00:29:25.039] everything.
[00:29:25.440] I do. Yeah, I believe. Me too. Yeah. And
[00:29:28.000] I think if you look at most traditions,
[00:29:29.840] there are humans, there's God, and then
[00:29:31.679] there are beings on the way to God.
[00:29:33.279] They're demiggods, they're angels,
[00:29:35.039] they're, you know, all sorts of, you
[00:29:36.640] know, then they're like hybrids
[00:29:37.840] sometimes in the form of nephilim or,
[00:29:39.840] you know,
[00:29:40.880] Zachchariah sitchens and or whatever,
[00:29:43.600] which I place in another bucket than
[00:29:45.279] like, you know, religions. But like
[00:29:47.440] these these are common tropes is what
[00:29:49.200] I'm trying to say. like it's it's it's
[00:29:50.559] it's actually unusual to find a
[00:29:52.559] tradition in which there's nothing
[00:29:54.080] between man and and God and in certain
[00:29:56.799] cases you have a taxonomy of angel
[00:29:58.559] hierarchies as well whether it's St.
[00:30:00.559] Thomas Aquinas or you know Syrian
[00:30:03.279] neoplatonist the amlicus or you know you
[00:30:05.679] have a lot of these guys sort of you
[00:30:07.360] know uh with like specific angels kind
[00:30:10.880] of like uh uh literally descriptors next
[00:30:13.919] to them and stuff. It's pretty
[00:30:15.360] interesting. Do you do you think some of
[00:30:17.679] religion could be
[00:30:20.480] I'm saying this very broadly
[00:30:22.559] but
[00:30:23.760] do you think some of organized religion
[00:30:25.360] could be like a
[00:30:28.880] pretty good pretty good set of stories
[00:30:31.200] that are a useful distraction
[00:30:35.039] to kind of replicate our not replicate
[00:30:38.080] but like understand our our meaning
[00:30:39.760] while we're here. Ye yes, but I would
[00:30:41.840] say it less cynically because I I think
[00:30:43.919] in some ways, yeah, we might be seeing
[00:30:45.279] the source code or whatever. I wouldn't
[00:30:47.279] call the source code aliens because we
[00:30:48.880] it's unclassifiable. We don't know what
[00:30:50.480] these things are, but like whatever
[00:30:52.880] we're more scientifically investigating
[00:30:54.799] is probably the underlying thing between
[00:30:56.559] a lot behind a lot of these religions.
[00:30:58.960] But that shouldn't make one cynical
[00:31:01.039] because I think you can have two things
[00:31:03.039] simultaneously be true. you can have um
[00:31:05.919] you know one faction of these sort of
[00:31:07.679] you know aliens or or or angels or
[00:31:09.840] demons or whatever trying to stoke uh
[00:31:12.640] violence and cause us to you know be
[00:31:14.960] enslaved cause us to like stay with like
[00:31:16.720] lower consciousness or whatever and then
[00:31:18.240] you could have another faction uh that
[00:31:20.880] uses religion as an as an initiation
[00:31:23.120] path and uh you know is uh I think if
[00:31:26.960] you look at you know it's like I I'm
[00:31:29.200] sympathetic to a lot of the ideas that
[00:31:31.039] like like Jesus for example kind of
[00:31:32.640] misdirected a lot of And like yeah, like
[00:31:35.679] John Lock wrote a book called um you
[00:31:37.440] know, the reasonleness of Christianity.
[00:31:39.760] And you know, uh even the concept of
[00:31:42.399] muststeria, you know, this Greek word
[00:31:44.559] for, you know, religious mystery, it's
[00:31:46.640] just uh it's it's literally only for the
[00:31:49.200] disciples. The disciples will know the
[00:31:51.039] truth and then nobody else will, you
[00:31:53.120] know, is ready for the truth. You have
[00:31:54.960] to have ears to hear the truth. And I'm
[00:31:57.760] just using Christianity as an example,
[00:31:59.279] but I think there are others. Um and so
[00:32:01.440] that that to me that model which also
[00:32:04.559] like William James and the um you know
[00:32:06.880] varieties of religious experience kind
[00:32:08.480] of talks about as well this idea of kind
[00:32:11.200] of like maybe some sort of inner circle
[00:32:13.519] you know and then you know kind of outer
[00:32:15.360] rings you know the outer rings go to you
[00:32:17.840] know they go to they do the kind of
[00:32:19.519] prosaic religious thing right like you
[00:32:21.600] you go to church you go to synagogue you
[00:32:24.159] engage in the rituals and it's like kind
[00:32:25.760] of this cultural commu communal thing
[00:32:28.000] and then they're kind of like the
[00:32:29.200] mystics and and they're like just going
[00:32:31.120] for like the the the truth.
[00:32:32.880] And you can do that through I think
[00:32:34.559] science. You can do it through religion
[00:32:36.399] itself and like spiritual purification.
[00:32:38.240] I think you can go for that, you know,
[00:32:40.399] um in in in many different ways. And I
[00:32:42.480] think some of this touches on kind of
[00:32:45.039] gnostic ideas, you know.
[00:32:47.600] What do you mean?
[00:32:48.720] Well, Gnosticism is like it's a really
[00:32:50.720] poor kind of uh uh poorly defined uh
[00:32:54.159] group of you know, it's there there were
[00:32:56.640] gnostics like post Jesus or whatever.
[00:32:59.360] Um, but really it's like everything
[00:33:02.240] outside of like the Council of Nika and
[00:33:04.640] like the kind of, you know, straightup
[00:33:06.399] canon and then there's like, you know,
[00:33:08.240] there specific kind of like esoteric
[00:33:10.559] orders that are kind of associated
[00:33:12.240] loosely withnosticism, but it's like
[00:33:13.919] this poor amalgamation of like a bunch
[00:33:15.919] of different things. The way I'm using
[00:33:19.360] it here is like I think a lot of
[00:33:20.960] Gnostics are uh sympathetic to the and
[00:33:24.480] there's this author named Hans Jonas who
[00:33:26.240] writes some good books in this area.
[00:33:28.320] this idea that like um man himself is
[00:33:32.159] godly and uh you know it's like uh
[00:33:35.200] namaste or whatever is like you know I I
[00:33:37.279] I say hi to the god in you or something.
[00:33:39.440] You're getting to what the templars
[00:33:40.880] think essentially.
[00:33:42.240] Do you think the Templars think that?
[00:33:43.679] Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of there
[00:33:45.679] there's a lot of discussion as as to
[00:33:47.919] them being gnostic and and exactly what
[00:33:50.640] you just said, God within you and
[00:33:53.200] protecting of traditions but recognizing
[00:33:55.679] that things have been changed and
[00:33:57.440] manipulated.
[00:33:58.240] Yeah. Well, the Templars, you know, they
[00:34:00.080] were meant to protect Christ's bloodline
[00:34:02.559] was sort of the, you know, historical
[00:34:04.399] like myth around them.
[00:34:06.399] And they would also protect prophets and
[00:34:09.839] uh, you know, kind of these weak sickly
[00:34:11.919] seers. And they were very interesting
[00:34:14.800] order you know they had like a you know
[00:34:16.480] banking system back in the day and
[00:34:18.159] that's actually what got them into
[00:34:19.359] trouble because uh Philip IV Philip the
[00:34:22.240] Fair was indebted to them and then he
[00:34:24.639] got really mad at you know Jacqu de Mole
[00:34:27.599] and uh and Jeffrey Duché and all these
[00:34:30.399] guys and basically like bla you know
[00:34:32.879] said that they were engaging in these
[00:34:34.079] blasphemous rituals
[00:34:35.520] worked with worked with the Vatican to
[00:34:38.480] off with their head.
[00:34:39.440] Exactly. Pope Pope Clement the 5th I
[00:34:41.359] believe. Yeah. God, he's good.
[00:34:45.919] Not the fourth, the fifth.
[00:34:47.359] The fifth, the fifth. And I think, you
[00:34:50.399] know, uh, Jacqu de Mole was, you know,
[00:34:53.040] he had he had been in touch with Clement
[00:34:55.440] the fifth and I think Jacqu de Mole
[00:34:57.359] might have had like a a very interesting
[00:34:59.599] worldview that he was trying to get out.
[00:35:02.000] Um, but uh,
[00:35:03.599] who's the leader of the Templars?
[00:35:04.800] He was the leader of the Yeah, I should
[00:35:06.079] have the the last Grandmaster of the
[00:35:07.760] Templars. And I think it was Friday the
[00:35:09.520] 13th, 1307, he was arrested.
[00:35:12.160] And um yeah, I don't know. You know,
[00:35:14.400] it's like it's who knows exactly what
[00:35:16.240] they what they believed, but they're
[00:35:18.720] very very interesting group. And some
[00:35:20.400] people think that, you know, maybe they
[00:35:21.760] went underground uh you know, after
[00:35:24.000] after he was arrested and maybe they
[00:35:25.839] went into the you know, if you read the
[00:35:26.880] Ombberto Echo, you know, this like
[00:35:28.480] Italian medieval philosopher, he thinks
[00:35:30.720] that maybe they went into the tunnels of
[00:35:32.240] of uh province, you know, in France. Um
[00:35:35.839] you know, other people think they went
[00:35:37.119] to Scotland. Um very interesting. Yeah,
[00:35:39.839] I have a hard I I studied the Templars a
[00:35:44.000] good bit. I wouldn't call myself an
[00:35:45.680] expert on it, but it's a very
[00:35:46.960] interesting topic to me.
[00:35:48.720] I have a very hard time believing that
[00:35:50.400] their quote unquote bloodline ended
[00:35:53.200] when, you know, this thing went down,
[00:35:55.520] this raid basically, and then their
[00:35:57.440] leadership was executed. It they had
[00:36:00.000] their hands on too many alleged secrets
[00:36:03.920] and they had too much
[00:36:06.880] multi-country organization. Yeah.
[00:36:09.200] I mean, you point out the banking system
[00:36:10.560] and [ __ ] like they were so advanced and
[00:36:13.599] operating on their own as this weird
[00:36:15.520] like
[00:36:16.880] warrior monk kind of thing where all the
[00:36:19.040] Templars then had to put their money
[00:36:21.200] into into the Templar group like they
[00:36:23.760] but they lived well among all the
[00:36:25.280] Templar but like
[00:36:26.400] it had such a a fraternal type feel to
[00:36:31.520] it that I I struggled to believe that it
[00:36:34.960] just went out like a light like that. I
[00:36:36.880] would I would imagine it was kept alive.
[00:36:39.280] If you know, you can start to to pull at
[00:36:42.079] evidence and and maybe use a lot of
[00:36:44.560] circumstantial things at best to try to
[00:36:46.400] tie it to like Freemasons or something
[00:36:48.480] like that. I don't know the answer to
[00:36:50.640] those things, but you know, the the the
[00:36:53.119] concept of like
[00:36:55.359] protecting the bloodline of Christ or
[00:36:57.040] something. I mean, you want to talk
[00:36:58.240] about an onlogical shock
[00:37:00.400] Yeah.
[00:37:00.960] type thing. I mean, holy [ __ ] bro.
[00:37:03.040] Yeah. It's fascinating. Well, I think in
[00:37:04.960] some ways they were protecting the, you
[00:37:07.520] know, at least Rudolph Steiner wrote a
[00:37:09.040] book actually the guy who mentioned the
[00:37:10.640] the 19th century Austrian philosopher
[00:37:12.800] about the Templars and he says that the
[00:37:14.960] Holy Grail is actually a metaphor for
[00:37:16.640] the human heart and that uh kind of the
[00:37:19.359] the macro war or whatever the the cosmic
[00:37:22.000] war actually goes on inside the human
[00:37:23.760] bloodstream and that the Templars's
[00:37:26.000] rituals, you know, they were sort of
[00:37:27.359] they were simulating Peter's denial and
[00:37:29.520] like all sorts of like biblical stories
[00:37:31.119] and like these things that they would
[00:37:32.560] they would too. And um he would say that
[00:37:36.880] it was all about almost self- purif
[00:37:38.880] these were like self- purification
[00:37:40.400] rituals and that you you might be able
[00:37:42.560] to attain sort of a Christlike
[00:37:44.079] consciousness or state or something
[00:37:45.760] through some of through some of this
[00:37:47.040] stuff and that the Templars were in
[00:37:49.680] order to protect I mean even even like
[00:37:53.200] exoterically they were there to protect
[00:37:55.359] pilgrims um you know and you had the the
[00:37:57.680] hospitals or whatever who were like the
[00:37:59.359] medic side of that. Um, so that was that
[00:38:02.079] was kind of their explicit intent and
[00:38:04.000] then yeah, who knows? You know, so it's
[00:38:05.839] all very interesting.
[00:38:06.800] We go a lot of different places.
[00:38:07.760] A lot of different Yeah, Da Vinci Code.
[00:38:11.440] I really want to get that author in
[00:38:13.119] here.
[00:38:13.599] You Dan Brown. Go to New Hampshire.
[00:38:15.599] I've been I've been working on it, but
[00:38:17.599] have you he doesn't really do podcasts.
[00:38:20.000] Yeah, he's pretty off the beaten path.
[00:38:22.240] He's he's uh really cool, man. I mean,
[00:38:24.240] he what a good I love uh actually Angels
[00:38:26.640] and Demons. I thought that was
[00:38:27.839] fantastic. Yeah, I I've literally read
[00:38:29.440] the books like like the the movies are
[00:38:31.680] great, but like I' i've read the books.
[00:38:33.119] He's a really good writer and the
[00:38:34.320] stories are wild and like yeah, I mean
[00:38:35.760] it it's a fictionalized story and it
[00:38:37.359] draws on,
[00:38:38.320] you know, some imagination, but there's
[00:38:39.920] also there's a baseline of of intense
[00:38:43.359] historical understanding of symbology.
[00:38:45.920] Yeah.
[00:38:46.320] And culture and religion that exists
[00:38:48.560] within those pages that is just wildly
[00:38:50.960] fascinating to me.
[00:38:52.079] I agree. I agree.
[00:38:53.520] But I got you on this tangent cuz you
[00:38:54.880] were talking aboutnosticism.
[00:38:56.640] Yeah. Yeah. I got you off that. Sorry.
[00:38:58.480] Continue on that.
[00:38:59.200] No, I don't know. I think I think um
[00:39:01.119] Well, I guess we're going back to the
[00:39:02.800] kind of alien thing like are the are
[00:39:04.720] aliens like at all do they have to do
[00:39:06.400] with religion? I think the easy cynical
[00:39:08.720] like way to like write off religion is
[00:39:10.400] like, oh yeah, like they've been like
[00:39:11.760] messing with us and like causing like
[00:39:13.359] holy wars, but like really they just
[00:39:15.280] want the bloodshed or whatever. They're
[00:39:16.560] like mining us for like bad bad vibes in
[00:39:19.280] the case of like Robert Monrose like had
[00:39:21.200] this concept of, you know, he studied
[00:39:22.880] consciousness in in Virginia or
[00:39:24.400] whatever. And he had this idea of luch
[00:39:25.920] and like these negative entities mining
[00:39:27.599] luch. How would you do that at scale
[00:39:29.359] through like manufacturing wars or
[00:39:31.280] whatever? I think it's easy to like get
[00:39:32.960] into that like line of thinking. And
[00:39:34.880] then I think there's maybe another
[00:39:36.000] interesting line of thinking that's like
[00:39:38.240] um you know uh uh uh religion can be
[00:39:41.359] this like really cool kind of initiation
[00:39:43.119] path and there's actually like a lot of
[00:39:44.480] truth in religion and it's so easy to
[00:39:48.079] like dismiss the Bible out of hand but
[00:39:49.839] actually it's like this inc and if you
[00:39:51.200] read like
[00:39:52.800] both the Old Testament and the New
[00:39:54.400] Testament like these are profound texts.
[00:39:56.640] They're like so fascinating
[00:39:58.880] and uh they're they're texts I think you
[00:40:01.440] get something different out of depending
[00:40:03.440] on the level of like that you're at. And
[00:40:06.000] so it's important to like I think
[00:40:07.280] revisit these things and Yeah.
[00:40:09.200] Yeah. You you make a good point there.
[00:40:10.880] There there's definitely a level of of
[00:40:13.280] truth that exists within there. And
[00:40:16.160] look, there's human error. There's
[00:40:17.599] passed down stories. There's things that
[00:40:19.119] are written hundreds of years later.
[00:40:20.640] There's translations that are translated
[00:40:22.560] [ __ ] 12 different ways that get
[00:40:24.720] confusing. But you know it's it's called
[00:40:28.240] the greatest book ever written cuz
[00:40:29.839] there's something at the core of
[00:40:31.200] humanity that exists in there. Now like
[00:40:34.400] you can separate out all these things.
[00:40:36.320] You can separate the history of it
[00:40:38.000] versus what might be more fable and
[00:40:39.599] fairy tale. You can separate out the
[00:40:41.760] religion and maybe the power structures
[00:40:43.760] that took advantage of that and continue
[00:40:45.440] to take advantage of it for not good
[00:40:47.040] things. And you can separate out the
[00:40:49.280] piece of of religion that brings a lot
[00:40:51.359] of people something awesome in their
[00:40:53.119] life where you know I always I always
[00:40:55.040] say this with these organized religions
[00:40:57.839] most of the people who are part of it
[00:40:59.200] it's it's used for positive in their
[00:41:00.720] life and it's a great thing. It's a
[00:41:02.319] small percentage of people that use it
[00:41:04.079] for power or domination over others or
[00:41:06.560] no I say this so [ __ ] you and whatever
[00:41:08.560] you think and unfortunately that's what
[00:41:10.480] gets attention but like you can separate
[00:41:12.880] all these ideas and realize it's
[00:41:15.520] complicated. It just gets it gets weird
[00:41:18.240] when you look at it through the more
[00:41:19.760] esoteric sense and you see some of the
[00:41:22.640] things within there where you know kind
[00:41:24.800] of like what Diana Walsh Basoka looks at
[00:41:26.800] where it's like wait a second
[00:41:28.800] is there like some some code in here
[00:41:30.640] that means some things that that that we
[00:41:32.960] don't which which that we don't we
[00:41:35.280] didn't previously understand like that
[00:41:36.960] that topic is is so fascinating to me
[00:41:40.800] because you don't like with with a book
[00:41:43.920] that holy the people who put it
[00:41:45.920] together. It's almost like there's
[00:41:47.920] there's something coming to them.
[00:41:49.440] There's these ideas or or knowledge,
[00:41:51.920] secrets from the universe that maybe
[00:41:54.000] have been passed down enough that
[00:41:55.680] there's still that kernel of truth
[00:41:57.119] there. But obviously, like you were
[00:41:58.960] saying,
[00:41:59.760] you really got into Diana's book and I
[00:42:01.599] think you described yours like a great
[00:42:02.800] white buffalo of coming on your show and
[00:42:06.079] you know what what just for people out
[00:42:08.160] there who aren't familiar with her work,
[00:42:09.839] you started to go into it, but what
[00:42:12.560] what is she really getting at? visav
[00:42:15.359] UFOs and and religion.
[00:42:17.040] Yeah. Well, she made this really
[00:42:18.319] interesting in so her first book was
[00:42:19.760] called Heaven Can Wait. I believe it was
[00:42:21.359] published in 2014 and it was a history
[00:42:24.079] of like I think it was about the
[00:42:25.920] Catholic concept of purgatory. And so
[00:42:28.000] she's going through all these like
[00:42:29.839] brothers, nuns, you know, uh sisters,
[00:42:32.880] mothers of the church of the Catholic
[00:42:34.480] Church experiencing like, you know, what
[00:42:37.680] they would call divine interactions or
[00:42:39.280] angelic interactions. Um, and in many
[00:42:41.520] cases it was like she was she was
[00:42:43.760] basically so she she knows Greek and
[00:42:45.200] Latin, she's a classicist and she was
[00:42:47.280] going back to the original translation,
[00:42:49.119] not just taking kind of primmaaccia at
[00:42:51.200] face value. The uh, you know, kind of
[00:42:54.160] modernization translations of, you know,
[00:42:56.640] the the the way these things have kind
[00:42:58.560] of like it's a game of telephone, you
[00:43:00.480] know, and so like now it's written as
[00:43:02.480] like, you know, angel or demon or god or
[00:43:04.880] whatever. But she was going back to the
[00:43:06.240] original translations and she was seeing
[00:43:08.880] orbs and discs and like all sorts of
[00:43:11.280] paranormal stuff that really pattern
[00:43:12.880] matches to like if you read John Max
[00:43:15.760] books on abductions or whatever or like
[00:43:17.760] any of the modern kind of alien stuff
[00:43:19.599] like it it it was like a onetoone match.
[00:43:22.240] Uh and so I think a light bulb went off
[00:43:24.000] in her head or I think she even sent a
[00:43:25.599] lot of this stuff to her friend and her
[00:43:26.880] friend was like this reads like a
[00:43:27.920] Stephen Spielberg script like this is
[00:43:29.520] crazy. this is like really paranormal.
[00:43:31.680] And a light bulb went off in her head
[00:43:33.200] where she was like, "Oh my god, like
[00:43:34.960] maybe this is the same thing that's
[00:43:37.440] going on now." And uh you know, maybe
[00:43:40.160] maybe this this is still we're still
[00:43:41.680] living in in in the reality that the
[00:43:44.000] Bible is. And that's why I think
[00:43:46.160] in some ways the whole alien
[00:43:47.440] conversation is not subversive and
[00:43:49.280] upending of religion. It's reinforcing
[00:43:51.440] of religion. you become this biblical
[00:43:53.680] literalist and you you actually move
[00:43:55.520] from this like garden variety like I'm
[00:43:57.440] going to go to church because I you know
[00:43:58.640] it's a Pascal's wager and I don't want
[00:44:00.160] to go to hell into like I uh uh actually
[00:44:04.640] am starting to believe in the
[00:44:05.520] metaphysical truth of this and I think
[00:44:06.960] our the world we live in is actually
[00:44:08.560] expanded maybe there are this is this
[00:44:10.960] interstitial thing with angels and
[00:44:12.319] demons and I want to be on the right
[00:44:14.000] side of history I want to like lead a
[00:44:15.599] good life myself and uh you know not end
[00:44:18.160] up you know in in the bad side and I
[00:44:20.480] think that's like that's like a very
[00:44:22.319] powerful, profound thing to like think
[00:44:25.119] you're like swimming in the soup of good
[00:44:26.880] and evil. It that'll pop anybody out of
[00:44:28.880] their nihilism and I think that's good
[00:44:31.359] and reinforcing of
[00:44:33.040] religion. Do you think like in your
[00:44:35.920] whether it's studying Diana or talking
[00:44:37.680] to many other people you have where this
[00:44:39.599] whole,
[00:44:40.720] you know, maybe I'll take it a step
[00:44:42.240] further and say maybe even some of like
[00:44:43.920] the angel and demon stuff that that
[00:44:45.839] comes up with it. Do do you think it
[00:44:47.520] makes you more open to not necessarily
[00:44:50.640] like oh this religion's right or
[00:44:52.480] something like that but like all right
[00:44:55.280] may maybe there's maybe I should look at
[00:44:57.359] some other stuff that I previously wrote
[00:44:58.880] off.
[00:45:00.319] Yeah absolutely man. Yeah. Well, I think
[00:45:02.880] I think you expand your ontological
[00:45:06.160] world, it it like the more you are I
[00:45:09.680] think the way the best way to think and
[00:45:11.280] I was talking about this with with uh um
[00:45:13.440] Danny Shehan too and like you know maybe
[00:45:15.440] I'm like way off on all this stuff so
[00:45:17.040] like take this with a grain of salt but
[00:45:18.480] like I think the best way to think is
[00:45:19.839] like be radically open-minded to
[00:45:21.440] everything.
[00:45:23.119] When you hear something, don't dismiss
[00:45:24.960] it a priori. You catalog it as low
[00:45:27.680] probability. And then when you you just
[00:45:30.079] look for corroboration for it. You look
[00:45:32.000] for like more and more evidence that
[00:45:33.520] it's real. And so I think when you do
[00:45:35.520] that with like the alien thing and you
[00:45:37.520] look at, you know, the all the sort of,
[00:45:40.720] you know, this body of like religious
[00:45:42.319] evidence and you can dismiss the stuff
[00:45:44.240] around religion and say, you know, it's
[00:45:45.920] it's religious in nature, so like it's
[00:45:47.839] not evidence. But it's like that's what
[00:45:49.599] everybody was like for the last like few
[00:45:52.079] thousand years. It's like the you know
[00:45:54.480] the idea that like there are like over
[00:45:56.160] 4,000 like flood myths or whatever like
[00:45:58.720] like there's so many flood and you can
[00:46:00.160] like dismiss that out of hand if you're
[00:46:01.440] an ar you know an archaeologist and say
[00:46:03.440] Graham Hancock's like an idiot or
[00:46:04.960] whatever. Or you can just realize that
[00:46:07.200] that was humanity and like those those
[00:46:09.440] myths like hold a lot of validity
[00:46:12.000] themselves and they're historical
[00:46:13.520] artifacts. They're not just religious
[00:46:15.040] artifacts.
[00:46:15.839] They're also across like every They're
[00:46:18.079] so disperate. They're uncorrelated.
[00:46:19.760] Exactly. And so I think
[00:46:21.920] I think the more your knowledge grows,
[00:46:23.760] the more the surface area of your
[00:46:25.359] knowledge grows. And if you think of the
[00:46:26.880] surface area as like begetting
[00:46:28.720] questions, like it's like I think you're
[00:46:31.920] uh your that your questions grow at an
[00:46:34.800] exponent of the knowledge that you know
[00:46:37.920] sort of thing. And so, yeah, I think
[00:46:40.400] when you when you pull a little Jenga
[00:46:42.240] block or, you know, you find out a thing
[00:46:44.079] about, you know, alternative American
[00:46:46.800] history or or UFOs or whatever, it just
[00:46:49.680] expands your worldview more. And it
[00:46:51.119] makes you question sort of, you know,
[00:46:52.400] everything in a really, I think, healthy
[00:46:53.920] way. And then you still have to have
[00:46:56.400] guard. You still have to be like, "Yeah,
[00:46:58.240] but that's bullshit." You know, that
[00:46:59.440] that involves lazy thinking and is dumb.
[00:47:02.079] And um but most people are they're sort
[00:47:04.960] of like they don't realize how
[00:47:08.319] epistemically like blocked they are.
[00:47:10.319] Yes.
[00:47:10.880] And I think that Yeah. It would be I
[00:47:12.880] don't know it'd be awesome if we could
[00:47:15.040] change that as a
[00:47:16.000] for sure. Yeah. Listen across everything
[00:47:18.720] we do all communication it would be
[00:47:20.640] amazing if people could be more like wow
[00:47:22.160] that's an interesting idea. How how'd
[00:47:23.599] you arrive at that?
[00:47:24.400] Yeah.
[00:47:24.800] Rather than you know just like [ __ ] you
[00:47:26.640] or yes.
[00:47:27.520] Yeah. But I mean, we're talking about
[00:47:31.280] the open- source stuff, right? Like,
[00:47:33.119] yeah, the things we can see, reading the
[00:47:35.040] Bible, reading ancient text that's
[00:47:37.280] available to the public.
[00:47:38.800] There is still a power structure that
[00:47:42.000] exists across different religions around
[00:47:43.920] them. In the case of say Christianity
[00:47:45.839] and and more specifically the Catholic
[00:47:47.520] Church, obviously you have the Vatican.
[00:47:49.440] And you know, I used to for for six
[00:47:51.200] months of my life, I lived like a
[00:47:52.480] quarter mile from the Vatican. Oh wow.
[00:47:54.319] And at the time,
[00:47:56.000] you know, I was like, "Oh, wow. That's
[00:47:57.280] awesome. Didn't have any appreciation
[00:47:59.680] for thinking about like, holy [ __ ]
[00:48:01.599] there's some secrets of the universe
[00:48:03.440] potentially in there.
[00:48:04.319] Yeah.
[00:48:04.960] But like, you know, you brought up the
[00:48:06.560] council on Nika and everything, which is
[00:48:08.319] something that I feel like is very under
[00:48:10.800] discussed in in history. But you know
[00:48:13.200] that's where
[00:48:14.960] say all the source data was amalgamated
[00:48:17.760] into what we the public will end up
[00:48:19.760] being able to have by a very powerful
[00:48:22.000] few that has continued that tradition
[00:48:24.400] all the way through to now where the
[00:48:25.680] Vatican is a country and has everything.
[00:48:27.920] And I believe if I'm remembering this
[00:48:30.559] correctly in Diana's work like she went
[00:48:33.200] to the Vatican archives. She went to the
[00:48:34.800] Vatican archives and I believe they make
[00:48:37.359] you sign an NDA. And so I think she
[00:48:39.359] can't say that much, but she
[00:48:41.200] consistently in in public hints that it
[00:48:44.640] seems like they understand kind of more
[00:48:46.720] about ontological truth and the UFO
[00:48:49.119] thing more than meets the eye. And you
[00:48:51.760] even had I mean she talks about this
[00:48:53.280] publicly. she had this NASA mission
[00:48:56.160] controller who now I can say his name
[00:48:58.000] because he's been doxed by other people
[00:49:00.400] uh Tim Taylor go to um the Vatican and
[00:49:04.960] have this like personal conversion
[00:49:07.040] experience and it was I think it was a
[00:49:10.240] really trippy experience for him where
[00:49:11.839] he was like reading through like stuff
[00:49:14.000] they had on like Capernicus and other
[00:49:16.000] and Galileo and and some somehow that
[00:49:20.559] reinforced his religiosity like he
[00:49:23.040] became a hardcore Catholic after that.
[00:49:25.599] And so like I think you have to ask
[00:49:27.040] yourself the question like why does a
[00:49:28.640] like kind of nuts and bolts like you
[00:49:30.319] know NASA mission controller if he's
[00:49:31.920] going in there and like looking into you
[00:49:34.160] know um just their like science records
[00:49:37.359] why does that turn him into a hardcore
[00:49:39.119] Catholic? And she she talks she
[00:49:41.520] documents the actual experience where he
[00:49:43.119] has what she would call hierophony like
[00:49:44.960] a really an actual conversion experience
[00:49:46.800] and he like breaks it down into tears.
[00:49:48.400] And it could have just been this
[00:49:49.599] spontaneous thing but she hints even in
[00:49:52.480] her interview with me that like somehow
[00:49:54.720] what he was learning scientifically that
[00:49:56.880] they had reinforced his religious
[00:49:59.760] worldview that was a little more kind of
[00:50:02.160] like he was going through the motions
[00:50:03.760] before that experience and then it it it
[00:50:05.920] became alive for him. And I think that's
[00:50:08.240] actually a common experience for for a
[00:50:10.079] lot of people is they have these sort of
[00:50:11.520] like pivotal moments in their life where
[00:50:14.559] they just convert and uh you know uh
[00:50:17.520] like we we brought up St. Thomas Aquinus
[00:50:19.280] I think he was working on like sumo
[00:50:21.520] theologica this like rational discourse
[00:50:23.599] on Christianity this justification for
[00:50:25.359] Christianity and in Catholic mass I
[00:50:28.559] think he had I don't know if it was a
[00:50:30.319] UFO experience but some sort of
[00:50:32.000] paranormal like felt like he was touched
[00:50:33.760] by God and just stopped speaking and
[00:50:36.720] like stop he was like you know like I
[00:50:38.720] like know the truth or something and
[00:50:40.160] like this is all you know I I I can't
[00:50:43.680] even evangelize it but it became this
[00:50:45.680] like much deeper sort of like true
[00:50:47.839] knowing No, that's the actually the root
[00:50:49.440] of nosis is the the Greek, you know, or
[00:50:52.480] ornostic rather, the the Greek nosis,
[00:50:55.200] which is to know, but it's to know. It's
[00:50:56.880] the difference between me saying you you
[00:50:59.119] know, the concept of like a Snickers bar
[00:51:01.119] versus like you eating a Snickers bar
[00:51:02.880] like and so like knowing God
[00:51:05.200] intellectually is very different than,
[00:51:07.440] you know, maybe experiencing God. And so
[00:51:09.760] like I don't know, you know, I'm I'm uh
[00:51:12.880] I'm probably pre, you know, having that
[00:51:15.440] experience, but uh you know, I think I
[00:51:17.920] think uh that seems to happen kind of
[00:51:20.000] consistently. And at least Pulka relates
[00:51:22.240] it to the UFO thing.
[00:51:23.599] Well, the dirty little secret underlying
[00:51:26.319] a guy like what was that guy's name? Tim
[00:51:28.000] Taylor.
[00:51:28.559] Yeah.
[00:51:28.800] Is that right? underlying a NASA
[00:51:30.640] scientist
[00:51:32.079] going and having this conversion to
[00:51:33.440] Catholicism based on allegedly what he
[00:51:35.359] sees I guess in the Vatican archives is
[00:51:37.920] that you know we've always had this
[00:51:40.000] division across human history of science
[00:51:42.160] and religion
[00:51:43.680] one can't exist without the other but
[00:51:45.359] they are they're oil and water they do
[00:51:47.440] not coexist like they can exist without
[00:51:49.920] each other but they do not coexist well
[00:51:51.680] on top of each other when in reality the
[00:51:55.280] science is the quest to and I'm really
[00:51:58.400] being broad right now, so don't kill me
[00:52:00.000] in the comments, but like science is
[00:52:02.000] like the quest to figure out what we can
[00:52:04.640] about our reality and about the universe
[00:52:06.960] and about the things around us. Pretty
[00:52:08.480] much anything you point out like, oh,
[00:52:09.760] scientifically, why is this table that
[00:52:11.200] way? Right?
[00:52:12.319] And religion is the same quest except it
[00:52:15.680] more has to do with where we came from
[00:52:18.160] and where we go when we're out of these
[00:52:20.000] bodies, these machines we're in for 90
[00:52:22.559] years if we live a good long life. And
[00:52:24.720] yet, you know, you have the famous
[00:52:27.599] stories in history where like Galileo
[00:52:29.440] gets banned by the church and imprisoned
[00:52:31.760] in his home because he has the audacity
[00:52:34.000] to talk about whatever it was, the solar
[00:52:35.839] system and things like that and the
[00:52:36.960] church is like, "No, no, no." But does
[00:52:38.880] that come from the fact that the church
[00:52:40.640] knows a lot of this stuff and there's
[00:52:42.400] just a power structure that wants to
[00:52:44.160] stop the masses from knowing it? So,
[00:52:45.920] they hide behind the no, this is
[00:52:47.599] religion, you have to have faith. when
[00:52:49.200] in reality they're operating on a level
[00:52:51.599] where they're scientifically aware more
[00:52:53.760] than anyone else.
[00:52:54.640] Right. Right. Or maybe working on behalf
[00:52:58.160] of something else. I don't know.
[00:52:59.599] Sure.
[00:53:00.160] But yeah. Yeah. To totally. I I don't
[00:53:02.960] know. You know, it's um the Vatican was
[00:53:06.000] definitely like a It's almost like the
[00:53:08.160] first intel agency or something.
[00:53:10.400] I think that's I think that's very fair.
[00:53:12.559] Very like, you know,
[00:53:14.400] Yeah. hardcore. Uh they just Yeah. They
[00:53:18.160] had all the, you know, the knowledge,
[00:53:19.760] the power and uh yeah I mean are you
[00:53:24.400] familiar with like Gardano Bruno like he
[00:53:26.720] had this sort of like many worlds theory
[00:53:29.599] 16th century guy.
[00:53:30.720] No I'm not.
[00:53:32.720] Just another another example of uh you
[00:53:34.880] know Galileo where he had he it was
[00:53:36.640] almost like the multiverse theory or
[00:53:38.240] something but like a proto example of
[00:53:40.559] that back then. And um I believe was he
[00:53:44.800] he might have been actually
[00:53:47.440] like Queen Elizabeth
[00:53:50.000] um and I think was it was it King
[00:53:51.920] Frederick maybe a Bohemia? I think I
[00:53:55.280] think Giodonna Bruno might have
[00:53:56.720] interfaced with them because I know like
[00:53:58.640] like John D and Edward Kelly and stuff
[00:54:01.040] like a lot of these uh King Frederick
[00:54:04.559] was seemed to be like kind of a patron
[00:54:06.160] of like weird science and I think Gdon
[00:54:08.640] Bruno might have interfaced with them
[00:54:09.760] and so he had this theory but anyways he
[00:54:11.440] was burnt at the stake and
[00:54:12.720] of course he was.
[00:54:13.359] Yeah. Yeah. Just kind of kind of
[00:54:14.880] classic. Yeah. Just like Jo Malay and
[00:54:17.200] and Galileo and a whole Mly crew of
[00:54:20.480] people.
[00:54:20.960] Yeah. That's the thing. Like the people
[00:54:22.400] with new ideas are the ones that get
[00:54:24.000] burned at the stake in history and you
[00:54:26.000] just That's what just makes me wonder if
[00:54:27.760] it's really the opposite of what we
[00:54:28.960] think.
[00:54:29.359] Yeah. Well, it's like Socrates, you
[00:54:30.960] know, it's it's just this consistent
[00:54:32.640] sort of trope is this these scapegoating
[00:54:34.559] cycles where you have power structures
[00:54:36.160] that, you know, if you if you get out of
[00:54:38.160] line, if you break a kind of a a
[00:54:40.240] prohibition or whatever, then you're
[00:54:41.920] you're scapegoed.
[00:54:43.040] Sure. Yeah. And I mean you we joke about
[00:54:46.240] like the Vatican being the first intel
[00:54:47.920] agency, but like the the evidence there
[00:54:50.160] is pretty good. I mean,
[00:54:51.680] holy [ __ ] bro. Like just start at the
[00:54:53.680] Council on NA and work your way through
[00:54:55.839] that. There was actually a book written,
[00:54:57.760] I think in 2014 called the Vatican
[00:55:00.480] Bankers by Gerald Pner.
[00:55:02.000] Interesting.
[00:55:02.559] You ever read that?
[00:55:03.280] No. What's the thesis?
[00:55:05.680] you know, he does a really nice job just
[00:55:08.640] kind of reporting the history,
[00:55:10.640] especially over the past heavily over
[00:55:12.960] the past
[00:55:15.040] 150 years or so.
[00:55:16.160] Yeah.
[00:55:16.640] 200 years of like, yo, you have this
[00:55:20.079] religious organization, but they're
[00:55:22.240] wired into everyone. And yes, there's a
[00:55:25.040] lot of money that floats around that
[00:55:27.680] because they're a financial arm, too.
[00:55:29.520] And it's like it's the age-old thing. It
[00:55:31.839] doesn't matter whether it's religion,
[00:55:33.200] science, [ __ ] you know, that white
[00:55:35.599] door right there. It's always follow the
[00:55:37.119] money. Yeah.
[00:55:37.839] Right. And
[00:55:39.119] I don't know that really made me think
[00:55:41.040] more about how naive maybe I was about
[00:55:44.480] the fact that
[00:55:45.839] Yeah. It's not just like
[00:55:48.000] people holding power over people's
[00:55:50.000] beliefs or something in the world like,
[00:55:51.520] oh, do you believe that America is the
[00:55:53.599] modum of democracy? Oh, do you believe
[00:55:55.359] that like Jesus Christ was the savior?
[00:55:57.119] Oh, do you believe that like Muhammad
[00:55:58.559] was the was was the real was the prophet
[00:56:00.880] of God? It it does really unfortunately
[00:56:04.079] just tie back to some form of business
[00:56:05.920] at the end of the day. And that's how
[00:56:07.520] they even if even if they lead with
[00:56:09.359] those ideas there there's
[00:56:12.720] there's a flow of cashish.
[00:56:14.559] Yeah.
[00:56:14.960] Below it. And that's cynically that's
[00:56:17.280] kind of sad but once I read it I was
[00:56:19.440] like
[00:56:20.319] yeah I should have known this. No,
[00:56:22.240] that's it's clearly like a it's an
[00:56:24.240] organiz it's a power structure that like
[00:56:26.160] needs to like protect its own interests.
[00:56:28.400] Yeah.
[00:56:28.799] So, yeah, I think uh and so like maybe
[00:56:31.760] like the other like cut on what we were
[00:56:34.319] just talking about is like circumventing
[00:56:35.920] that being like no, I'm not going to
[00:56:37.599] like join the church. I'm going to like
[00:56:39.280] seek on my own. Yes.
[00:56:40.640] Like, you know, that's seen as sort of a
[00:56:42.319] threat in some ways because like they
[00:56:44.000] need they need to be like a monopoly of
[00:56:46.160] on they need to have a monopoly on
[00:56:48.000] truth.
[00:56:48.799] Yeah. I love this whole like they can
[00:56:50.240] like excommunicate someone from the
[00:56:51.839] church. I'm like
[00:56:52.880] so they put like electric fence around
[00:56:54.480] your house. Like what are you really
[00:56:56.079] doing? Like at the end of the day me and
[00:56:58.240] whoever's upstairs we're going to have
[00:56:59.760] our attitud on whether or not I live my
[00:57:01.520] life right.
[00:57:02.160] Yeah.
[00:57:02.480] You know what I mean? But it's strange
[00:57:03.680] that man is like you are
[00:57:05.599] it's like it's like Harry Potter like
[00:57:07.040] capenicus.
[00:57:08.160] Yeah.
[00:57:08.480] Like you're excommunicate.
[00:57:10.079] Very strange.
[00:57:10.799] It is strange. And that that's a
[00:57:13.040] decision that's it's easier said than
[00:57:14.720] done to say I'm going to have a you know
[00:57:17.599] not a a horizontal tether to like uh
[00:57:20.799] mankind who like is honestly like
[00:57:23.280] blaming me for a thing or saying that
[00:57:24.960] I'm an outcast for like believing a
[00:57:26.640] thing but I'm going to have a vertical
[00:57:28.079] tether to God and I'm going to like care
[00:57:29.760] more about just like the moral sanctity
[00:57:32.240] of like any given decision. That's like
[00:57:33.680] an extremely hard uh uh you know uh
[00:57:37.359] position to stake.
[00:57:38.480] Oh yeah. And so, you know, I think it's
[00:57:40.319] much easier said than done.
[00:57:41.520] And people get
[00:57:43.920] naturally when when when you're talking
[00:57:46.000] about quite literally the meaning of
[00:57:47.599] your life, it creates a wall with people
[00:57:51.440] where to your point earlier, it's harder
[00:57:53.760] to have an open conversation about it
[00:57:56.000] because like this is their core belief.
[00:57:58.480] It's their attitude. Like how do you
[00:58:00.480] break that down? The first thing you
[00:58:02.079] learn in marketing 101, day one of class
[00:58:04.559] is like the easiest thing to form and
[00:58:06.640] the hardest thing to break is a human's
[00:58:07.920] attitude. Now, put that in religion and
[00:58:10.480] why someone thinks they're here. And
[00:58:12.559] then try to have an educated
[00:58:14.079] conversation with them where you're not
[00:58:15.920] like attacking it or saying you're wrong
[00:58:17.440] or something like that, but just like,
[00:58:18.559] oh, have you ever thought about this or
[00:58:20.000] thought about that?
[00:58:21.119] It's hard to break through on those.
[00:58:22.960] Yeah,
[00:58:23.520] for sure.
[00:58:24.160] Totally. Yeah. But, you know, it's it's
[00:58:26.880] interesting that a lot of this eupfology
[00:58:30.000] that's happened has has come back to
[00:58:32.720] religion. And I I think the thing we get
[00:58:35.440] lost in all the time is that obviously
[00:58:37.200] since 2017 when Chris Melon walked out
[00:58:39.920] of the Pentagon and put this on the
[00:58:41.200] front of the New York Times, it's
[00:58:43.040] suddenly become a big part of the
[00:58:45.040] accepted lexicon to where like [ __ ]
[00:58:47.040] NBC talks about it.
[00:58:48.400] Yeah.
[00:58:48.880] Like that's strange. Yeah, but like we
[00:58:51.040] forget that this is these thoughts have
[00:58:53.280] always existed throughout human history.
[00:58:54.880] They they've been something that
[00:58:56.079] especially throughout the 20th century
[00:58:58.160] were happening and maybe it was just
[00:58:59.839] more taboo to talk about. But you know,
[00:59:02.799] you're really good friends with a guy
[00:59:05.760] who's like
[00:59:08.160] maybe like the most respected name in in
[00:59:10.640] the entire space cuz he's just like a
[00:59:12.640] genius in life and and that's Jacqu
[00:59:14.640] Valet. Yeah.
[00:59:15.599] Like this isn't new to him. He's he's
[00:59:17.599] been on this [ __ ] for [ __ ] five, six
[00:59:19.680] decades or whatever. How did you even
[00:59:21.599] meet that guy? I met him through uh
[00:59:25.760] bringing in people to like the you know
[00:59:27.599] Peter's orbit or whatever and then just
[00:59:29.680] getting interested in all these like you
[00:59:32.160] know subjects kind of at the frontier of
[00:59:33.920] epistemology and and so UFOs was one of
[00:59:36.960] those topics and I met him around the
[00:59:38.480] same time I met like Hal put off and
[00:59:40.079] Gary
[00:59:40.400] Nolan
[00:59:41.599] and I I you know I'd watched Close
[00:59:43.760] Encounters of the Third Kind and had
[00:59:45.280] known like he had you know was the the
[00:59:47.760] French eccentric character that like you
[00:59:49.839] know French watch was based on and Yeah.
[00:59:52.559] But uh you know I I yeah other than that
[00:59:54.960] in his like kind of internet history I
[00:59:56.880] didn't know much and then I met him and
[00:59:58.079] I was like this guy's really not only
[01:00:00.079] like incredibly knowledgeable and like I
[01:00:03.680] don't know it's when you speak to some
[01:00:05.280] of these people it's almost like you're
[01:00:07.520] you're also pinging off their conviction
[01:00:09.839] because he's like he's it's so like it's
[01:00:12.559] so obvious to him that like cuz you're
[01:00:14.400] when you first meet a guy like that
[01:00:15.520] you're like you just want to know if the
[01:00:16.640] thing's real and he's gone to like
[01:00:18.880] hundreds of crash site. there's like no
[01:00:20.880] there's no like question to him that
[01:00:22.559] like this stuff is real and so I think
[01:00:25.040] you know meeting somebody like that
[01:00:26.319] who's also rational thoughtful worked on
[01:00:28.319] the earliest version of the internet
[01:00:29.599] under Doug Engelbard at you know Xerox
[01:00:31.839] Park
[01:00:32.799] and uh was an astronomer you know has
[01:00:35.599] some physics background and
[01:00:37.920] he's a true polymath
[01:00:39.520] way really smart guy venture capitalist
[01:00:42.160] uh you you start to you know think okay
[01:00:45.920] like and then you read his books and
[01:00:47.520] they're like incredibly like he can at
[01:00:49.359] times be a a little long-winded and
[01:00:50.799] speak in these sort of like overly
[01:00:52.480] complex ways, but you read his books and
[01:00:54.000] they are incredibly well researched.
[01:00:56.079] Like they're just really really good.
[01:00:58.319] Um, yeah, he's he's fascinating. He's
[01:01:00.559] one of these people where like you spend
[01:01:02.000] time with him and there's some like
[01:01:03.599] osmosis like thing that goes on where I
[01:01:07.200] think he like, you know, expands your
[01:01:08.720] consciousness just by like being with
[01:01:10.799] him. I was actually just with him like
[01:01:12.640] maybe a month and a half ago in Paris
[01:01:15.040] and
[01:01:17.440] he has he has a spot there and um he was
[01:01:20.640] talking about um you know cathedrals and
[01:01:23.119] how they're built and he was talking
[01:01:24.319] about blue stained glass and he just
[01:01:26.559] goes he's so knowledgeable and uh yeah I
[01:01:30.000] mean I I cherish any time I get with
[01:01:32.480] that guy. He's amazing. Yeah, he's he
[01:01:34.559] he's he's definitely one of those guys
[01:01:36.160] when not that I've been in a room with
[01:01:38.240] him, but like when you listen to him
[01:01:39.520] talk, so I guess when he walks in the
[01:01:41.119] room with you, you're like, "Oo, this is
[01:01:43.440] a different level of human."
[01:01:45.280] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[01:01:46.079] But like you you talk about the whole
[01:01:48.799] crash retrieval thing and him going to
[01:01:51.440] these scenes, you know, one of one of
[01:01:52.960] the skeptic arguments, which I welcome
[01:01:55.680] the skeptic arguments and and I try to
[01:01:57.680] be a skeptic myself, too, because I
[01:01:59.200] think you really have to balance things
[01:02:00.559] out. But like you know a guy like
[01:02:02.799] Mitchaku who I had in episode 145 you
[01:02:06.079] know
[01:02:07.200] do you believe in God?
[01:02:08.880] Well I believe in the God of Einstein.
[01:02:11.119] He believed in God but not the God that
[01:02:14.000] intervenes in human affairs. It was the
[01:02:16.880] God of order. The God of simplicity and
[01:02:20.000] elegance. Einstein once asked the
[01:02:22.160] question did the universe have a choice?
[01:02:24.400] Is it unique? So universes, you can
[01:02:27.440] create universes in an afternoon, but
[01:02:29.359] most of them are unstable. Most of them
[01:02:31.280] fall apart. Most of them don't work. Our
[01:02:33.520] universe is stable. It works. Everything
[01:02:36.480] fits together. And then the question is,
[01:02:38.720] what set off the bang? That's what we do
[01:02:41.040] for a living. We have the big bang
[01:02:42.799] theory up to the point where the
[01:02:44.480] universe is going to explode. Why did it
[01:02:47.200] explode? We think it was a quantum
[01:02:49.280] event. And we are here because we are in
[01:02:51.839] the universe which decided to explode.
[01:02:54.079] So Einstein said, "Was it all an
[01:02:56.000] accident?" And he thought, "No, it could
[01:02:57.920] not have been an accident."
[01:03:01.359] He he's become very open to this stuff
[01:03:03.680] and looks at the science of it, which is
[01:03:05.280] very very cool. But he also when it
[01:03:07.839] comes to some of the crashes and things
[01:03:10.319] like that, he's like, you know, why
[01:03:12.799] doesn't anyone for the sake of God steal
[01:03:15.599] a pen or steal a piece of metal or
[01:03:18.640] something like that? My gut, you know,
[01:03:20.720] there's never been physical evidence of
[01:03:22.319] it. So when you
[01:03:22.960] but there are rebuttals to that right
[01:03:24.319] and what's the rebuttal?
[01:03:25.359] Gary Nolan you know Stanford PhD you
[01:03:28.000] know tenure professor of you know
[01:03:29.680] microbiology up for Nobel you know Nobel
[01:03:32.000] nominee every year um you know claims to
[01:03:34.559] have parts that this is at least like
[01:03:36.559] the the you know sequence of events
[01:03:38.720] right like a UFO is seen in like Ubatuba
[01:03:41.839] Brazil it like explodes u you know a
[01:03:44.799] piece of it is uh mailed to Jacqu Valet.
[01:03:47.760] Jacqu Vallet gives it to Gary Nolan for
[01:03:49.440] mass spectrometry and you know you have
[01:03:52.799] isotope ratios of heavy elements that
[01:03:55.440] are do not exist on Earth and are
[01:03:57.200] completely anomalous in the context of
[01:03:58.799] asteroids from other planets. So I I'm
[01:04:00.720] I'm not saying that that's a smoking
[01:04:02.319] gun. They're small pieces.
[01:04:04.400] Have you seen it?
[01:04:05.119] I've seen them. You need more testing.
[01:04:07.839] But I I will say that's like a good
[01:04:12.000] argument against the Kaku thing where
[01:04:13.760] it's like there that is a thing that
[01:04:15.520] like you Michioaku who's a brilliant
[01:04:17.920] string theorist you know you should go
[01:04:20.240] check that out and like you know false
[01:04:22.000] fire corroborate you know whatever you
[01:04:23.760] know talk to talk to Gary about that
[01:04:26.000] why doesn't but that that's the thing
[01:04:27.599] why doesn't Gary like
[01:04:29.920] walk into Joe Rogan's studio and put it
[01:04:31.680] on the table
[01:04:32.640] I think he should I show the pieces in
[01:04:35.039] my episode with Gary and I was like so
[01:04:37.440] fired up. That was like one of my first
[01:04:38.960] bigger episodes cuz I was like, "This is
[01:04:40.720] going to be insane." Like people are
[01:04:41.760] going to freak out one.
[01:04:43.760] Oh, it's like way back. It's like Yeah.
[01:04:45.920] a couple years ago. But um yeah, I he
[01:04:49.039] should um I think he should go on Rogan.
[01:04:51.280] Um
[01:04:51.920] can we pull that up? Can we pull up
[01:04:53.680] Jesse's video with with Gary Nolan? Do
[01:04:55.839] you remember the area where you showed
[01:04:57.680] the the objects?
[01:04:58.880] Yeah, it's later in the episode. All
[01:05:00.799] right. And I I will disclaim they're
[01:05:02.640] small, but if you just take the what was
[01:05:05.680] observed, the fact that they are mailed
[01:05:07.599] to Jacques around that, and then you
[01:05:10.319] have mass spec being done, you know,
[01:05:12.880] elements with weird isotope ratios. I
[01:05:15.119] think that is worthy of further inquiry.
[01:05:17.440] That's that's a pretty big deal.
[01:05:19.280] Um yeah,
[01:05:20.559] I think James James when he was doing
[01:05:24.079] moment of contact talked about
[01:05:26.480] some of the isotope ratios. I believe I
[01:05:29.440] hope I'm remembering this right. I want
[01:05:30.799] to say that was like an hour and 10
[01:05:33.039] minutes into episode 139, but he was
[01:05:35.119] talking about like some of the isotope
[01:05:36.480] ratios that were recovered from the soil
[01:05:39.599] around there where that crash happened
[01:05:40.960] in 96 in Virginia. So it was a UFO crash
[01:05:44.559] site.
[01:05:45.039] It was an alleged UFO crash material
[01:05:46.880] or a landing site where they crash.
[01:05:48.720] It was a crash.
[01:05:49.359] Yeah, it was like an explosion and
[01:05:50.559] crash. Yeah.
[01:05:51.440] Okay. And so they were testing something
[01:05:54.000] with the isotopes and the whatever the
[01:05:55.839] [ __ ] But what did what did they find in
[01:05:58.400] there without you know going like too
[01:06:00.400] complicated like what did they find to
[01:06:01.760] be able to say like oh this is not a
[01:06:03.359] part of our element table of elements
[01:06:05.760] something to do with magnesium isotopes
[01:06:07.839] that were a certain ratio that was not
[01:06:09.920] found on earth if you if you could
[01:06:12.000] create it would be in the billions of
[01:06:14.240] dollars and it was 1957 so
[01:06:18.160] and it's a you know
[01:06:21.440] this is a common occurrence that points
[01:06:23.680] to not of this earth Now, if you pulled
[01:06:27.119] back in like perhaps the wavelength of
[01:06:30.240] like Diana Walsh Basa,
[01:06:31.920] yeah,
[01:06:34.000] you know, there there's an argument
[01:06:35.680] there that if it's like aliens and
[01:06:37.520] demons or or angels and demons or
[01:06:39.440] whatever, it doesn't leave behind like a
[01:06:41.920] metallic physical thing. It's more it
[01:06:43.760] leaves behind a physical mark. So, if
[01:06:45.680] we're talking about having actual pieces
[01:06:47.839] of something like I'll just call it
[01:06:49.599] metal for the sake of calling metal, but
[01:06:51.039] it's not necessarily metal. Yeah, like
[01:06:52.880] that to me, maybe I'm thinking about
[01:06:54.880] this way too naively, that points more
[01:06:56.799] towards, okay, this is another entity,
[01:07:00.160] an alien, a future human, something like
[01:07:02.000] that. It's not this is not necessarily
[01:07:04.160] something that is
[01:07:05.680] biblical in the sense that it's an angel
[01:07:07.359] or it's a demon, you know.
[01:07:09.200] Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I guess we got
[01:07:12.079] the pieces up here.
[01:07:13.119] Oh, we do. All right, let's take a look
[01:07:14.319] at this.
[01:07:14.640] So, this is magnesium bismouth, by the
[01:07:17.280] way.
[01:07:17.599] Okay. You can point that mic right at it
[01:07:19.599] and turn that speaker up, James. Thank
[01:07:21.200] you, brother. We got James filling in
[01:07:22.960] today
[01:07:23.760] last minute.
[01:07:24.960] So, shout out to you. I appreciate you
[01:07:26.480] being here, brother.
[01:07:27.839] All right, let's hit play.
[01:07:29.920] All of the anomalies about the pieces of
[01:07:32.000] magnesium coming from Ubatuba. But what
[01:07:34.240] about the other sample on the table?
[01:07:36.000] Those are pieces of bismouth. Nolan
[01:07:38.079] actually couldn't recall how it was
[01:07:39.680] procured, so he had to call Hal Putoff
[01:07:42.079] to get the full scoop. Hal.
[01:07:44.480] Hi, Hal.
[01:07:46.319] Hal Putoff has one of the most
[01:07:47.760] interesting of all time. He was first a
[01:07:50.799] laser physicist and then out of Stanford
[01:07:53.200] Research Institute, he started the
[01:07:55.039] government's psychic spy program. Since
[01:07:57.599] then, he's been doing frontier tech
[01:07:59.440] research and has briefed multiple
[01:08:01.440] presidents on UFOs.
[01:08:03.039] So, do you know the original story of
[01:08:05.039] how it was kind of procured initially?
[01:08:08.000] Story was that it was sent anonymously
[01:08:10.960] by someone claiming to be an army
[01:08:13.440] officer.
[01:08:14.480] Long story short, this army officer was
[01:08:17.199] going through his grandfather's archives
[01:08:19.199] when he found this rare sample.
[01:08:21.199] And then written in the diary was that
[01:08:23.040] it was a piece from
[01:08:25.040] Roswell,
[01:08:26.000] uh, Roswell.
[01:08:27.359] True or not, these thin layers of
[01:08:29.199] bismouth magnesium are very hard to
[01:08:31.520] reproduce. Howal claims that they even
[01:08:33.600] have the properties to microize wave
[01:08:35.920] guides for terraertz frequencies. It
[01:08:38.239] turns out that it reduces the size of
[01:08:40.560] the required uh microwave guide for
[01:08:44.719] terrorist frequencies down to about
[01:08:46.799] 130th of the wavelength which is which
[01:08:49.520] is amazing. So it means you can
[01:08:51.920] basically put 30 wave guides in the
[01:08:54.080] volume of a single wave guide at
[01:08:56.080] terahertz frequencies.
[01:08:57.359] Got it. Thanks a lot. How really
[01:08:58.960] appreciate it. What can you do with
[01:09:01.520] terraertz that we can't with?
[01:09:03.759] All right. Yeah, let's let's just
[01:09:06.640] That's nuts.
[01:09:07.600] Yeah. So, you have little pieces. I
[01:09:09.920] mean, obviously they're when visually
[01:09:11.759] anticlimactic, but if you look at the
[01:09:13.520] fact pattern, you know, that's worthy of
[01:09:16.480] investigation. You have a guy of, you
[01:09:18.400] know, Nolan's caliber looking into it.
[01:09:20.719] Now, why doesn't
[01:09:23.040] Nolan let more of a skeptical guy just
[01:09:26.239] about that, you know, maybe UFOs have
[01:09:27.920] been seen crash like Brian Keading come
[01:09:29.920] in there and test it? Because like if I
[01:09:32.640] wanted to be a cynic, I could be like
[01:09:34.080] he's sitting there with, you know, some
[01:09:35.359] piece of metal going man.
[01:09:36.960] Sure. Sure. Sure.
[01:09:37.679] Right. I don't sounds like you've seen
[01:09:39.839] it and that's not what it is. But like I
[01:09:43.120] haven't personally done mass spec on so
[01:09:44.719] I I am going on his word there and I
[01:09:46.640] have to you know full full disclosure
[01:09:48.640] like I don't know for sure that the
[01:09:50.640] isotope I I can't see the thing and be
[01:09:52.319] like the isotope ratios are you know
[01:09:54.560] right strontium whatever you know. Um,
[01:09:57.520] so yeah, I think he should I think he
[01:09:59.120] should I think we should just like in
[01:10:00.480] investigate we should fund it. We should
[01:10:02.000] investigate more of this and and uh you
[01:10:04.080] know it it should flip either way. It
[01:10:05.920] should be you know this is you know
[01:10:07.360] definitely not ours or uh you know this
[01:10:10.239] is uh this is this crazy mind-blowing
[01:10:13.679] thing that changes everything. Why do
[01:10:15.920] you think guys like who maybe have
[01:10:18.000] handled this like you said like Valet
[01:10:20.480] Jacqu Valet and and Gary Nolan haven't
[01:10:23.840] necessarily done that yet meaning let in
[01:10:26.640] outside scientists to come take a look
[01:10:28.159] at it
[01:10:28.640] Gary uh I don't want to say too much but
[01:10:31.040] I know that Gary is actively like trying
[01:10:33.440] to get more of a smoking gun that it's
[01:10:35.440] alien and I he has some really
[01:10:37.280] interesting ideas around that. So uh
[01:10:40.080] yeah he he is doing it.
[01:10:41.840] Okay.
[01:10:42.320] Yeah.
[01:10:43.280] Yeah. He did a lot of work with like the
[01:10:44.960] basil ganglia stuff, right? It's coming
[01:10:47.199] back to me. What what was that again?
[01:10:48.800] The this little part of the basil
[01:10:50.400] ganglia and the dorsal strriatam um
[01:10:52.560] called the codate nucleus and the
[01:10:54.000] pitamin which he claims is like the
[01:10:56.560] almost like psychic center uh where the
[01:10:59.679] neuronal density in that area almost
[01:11:02.400] allows somebody to see more UFOs. Like
[01:11:04.640] the more neuronal density you have in
[01:11:06.320] that area, the more you can somehow see
[01:11:08.480] UFOs. And also they hooked up an fMRI to
[01:11:11.840] uh people playing go. And the more uh
[01:11:15.600] that that area of the brain lights up
[01:11:18.080] like the person when a person makes a
[01:11:19.840] brilliant move in go which is a
[01:11:21.440] counterintuitive move. It's a move that
[01:11:23.120] doesn't make any sense actually as an
[01:11:25.199] incremental go forward move against the
[01:11:27.280] player given where the pieces are. It
[01:11:29.440] only makes sense in the context of an
[01:11:31.120] the end point of the game. So, it's
[01:11:33.199] almost like a psychic knowledge of the
[01:11:34.800] future that's like causing you to like
[01:11:37.120] make this very counterintuitive move.
[01:11:39.600] That part of the brain lights up in an
[01:11:41.679] fMR fMRI tracks blood flow. And so, uh I
[01:11:45.920] think it's like this really interesting
[01:11:47.600] part of the brain that also we have to
[01:11:49.360] go like way deeper on. My one like weird
[01:11:52.159] theoretical model that I would, you
[01:11:53.920] know, kind of apply to it possibly is,
[01:11:56.239] you know, there's this idea that like
[01:11:57.360] the brain could be like a quantum a room
[01:11:59.120] temperature quantum system. So you have
[01:12:00.719] like Roger Penrose wrote like the
[01:12:02.320] emperor's new mind and you know I guess
[01:12:05.520] that was his follow-up with Stuart
[01:12:06.800] Hammeroff this anesthesiologist and it
[01:12:08.800] was this idea that like the microtubules
[01:12:10.640] like you know are like really important
[01:12:12.320] for the collapse of the wave function
[01:12:14.800] and because it is this important
[01:12:16.640] question like why do we see like
[01:12:17.840] macroscopic discrete reality versus kind
[01:12:20.159] of the sub subatomic probabilistic
[01:12:22.400] reality like why do we
[01:12:23.840] Jesse English
[01:12:26.400] so so so that's
[01:12:27.679] I'm sitting here nodding my head like I
[01:12:29.199] Stan absolutely not.
[01:12:31.760] So, so, so, so Gary,
[01:12:34.640] so it's been shown that there is
[01:12:38.159] hypothesized to be temporal non-locality
[01:12:41.360] in quantum systems. So like you can run
[01:12:43.920] like a double slit slit experiment in
[01:12:45.679] the future and you're running it with an
[01:12:48.239] entangled photon from the past and it
[01:12:50.880] feels like the future measurement is
[01:12:53.440] actually affecting the past.
[01:12:55.199] And that's an interpretation that's not
[01:12:58.239] for sure true. But like there are people
[01:13:00.560] who are working on quantum computers
[01:13:01.840] right now who hypothesize that a working
[01:13:04.000] quantum computer which we don't have
[01:13:05.679] because the bottleneck is keeping the
[01:13:07.120] chips coherent can send information back
[01:13:10.480] in time as long as the quantum computer
[01:13:12.880] is on. And so if the brain is a quantum
[01:13:16.239] computer or a part of it is maybe it's a
[01:13:18.320] classical quantum hybrid whatever then
[01:13:21.199] maybe there is a part of the brain that
[01:13:23.360] actually glitches into the future and
[01:13:25.280] sends shards or traces of information
[01:13:27.440] back in time explaining these sort of
[01:13:29.920] counterintuitive moves explaining the
[01:13:31.920] greater preponderance of UFO sightings
[01:13:33.760] if UFOs actually have more to do with
[01:13:35.840] time than space which is my belief.
[01:13:38.800] Can you expand upon that? Yeah, I think
[01:13:41.520] it's this well, first of all, I think
[01:13:42.960] it's a false dichotomy, right? Like you
[01:13:45.440] can't get to like Proxima Centauri B or
[01:13:48.080] whatever, you know, with with nuclear
[01:13:50.080] thermal propulsion. With chemical
[01:13:52.320] combustion, it takes you 80,000 years,
[01:13:53.840] multiple lifetimes, so that doesn't work
[01:13:55.360] for like biological mass as we know it.
[01:13:57.760] And we're seeing things that seem to
[01:13:59.840] look kind of like us. And then you speed
[01:14:02.320] that up with nuclear thermal propulsion
[01:14:04.000] by maybe 2x. So that's 40,000 years.
[01:14:06.080] Still totally unworkable. So you kind of
[01:14:08.159] need some version of space-time metric
[01:14:10.000] engineering which is time travel that is
[01:14:12.239] time travel to get real space travel
[01:14:15.199] that's interstellar. Yes.
[01:14:16.480] And so I think it's this false dichotomy
[01:14:18.800] but then you look at the actual observ
[01:14:20.719] observables of the alien thing
[01:14:22.960] and they're these little gray men and
[01:14:25.120] like you look at any UFO database or
[01:14:27.600] like Close Encounters of the Third kind
[01:14:29.199] database like the Edgar Mitchell
[01:14:30.480] Foundation has you know this this
[01:14:32.000] database of I think it's only five six
[01:14:33.679] thousand cases which is a problem. we
[01:14:35.440] need bigger databases. But you look at
[01:14:37.280] any of these databases, around or over
[01:14:40.400] 50% of the cases involve literally like
[01:14:43.360] homminid creatures. So the likelihood
[01:14:45.840] that you're seeing a thing from a random
[01:14:48.719] foreign planet that's evolutionary
[01:14:50.560] converged to like be this homminid
[01:14:52.640] sensient advanced technological thing
[01:14:55.440] that like looks like us makes no sense.
[01:14:58.400] And then you layer on top of that the
[01:15:00.080] fact that like gray aliens look like
[01:15:02.239] what any evolutionary biologist would
[01:15:04.400] probably predict we are going to evolve
[01:15:06.480] into. You know, their ears and noses cuz
[01:15:09.360] we're not hunter gathering anymore. Have
[01:15:11.360] they've become vestigial for us and so
[01:15:13.199] they're being selected against. Our eyes
[01:15:14.880] are being selected for more screen time.
[01:15:16.480] They have slit-like eyes. Our brains are
[01:15:18.400] being selected for. Decision-m is
[01:15:20.159] becoming far more important. Our bodies
[01:15:22.320] and strength are becoming less
[01:15:23.520] important. They're kind of sinny, you
[01:15:24.960] know, like weak, whatever. The idea that
[01:15:27.920] like these things would look like what
[01:15:29.679] we're moving towards and be from a
[01:15:32.719] totally random planet makes no sense.
[01:15:35.840] And then you can get into like, you
[01:15:37.360] know, weird physics models that are like
[01:15:39.199] honestly a little above my pay grade,
[01:15:40.640] but like this, you know, idea of like
[01:15:41.840] tippler discs and like, you know,
[01:15:43.679] tipler discs.
[01:15:44.560] Yeah. So you had like Goodell had this
[01:15:46.560] like you know um you know Kirk Gadell
[01:15:48.640] had this idea of like time travel you
[01:15:50.719] know uh uh in the early 20th century and
[01:15:53.120] then you had this guy Frank Tipler who
[01:15:54.640] was like later in the 20th century and
[01:15:57.040] he Goodell's whole thing was like you
[01:15:59.199] could time travel but like you'd have to
[01:16:00.960] like basically like travel like an
[01:16:03.760] extremely long distance and like it's
[01:16:05.600] it's like in effect like works but like
[01:16:07.520] it doesn't really like like it's it's
[01:16:08.960] totally theoretical. It's like
[01:16:10.080] impossible. And then Tipler had, and
[01:16:12.400] again, this is a little above my pay
[01:16:13.600] grade, but Tipler had this idea of like
[01:16:15.360] shrinking that down to literally a disc,
[01:16:17.679] which is hilarious because like that's
[01:16:19.040] what we describe UFOs as. And so I think
[01:16:22.000] the real guy you should speak to about
[01:16:23.520] this, this guy named Mike Masters, who
[01:16:25.920] um
[01:16:26.159] wait, that sounds very familiar.
[01:16:27.600] He's awesome, man. He wrote a book
[01:16:28.800] called uh Identified Flying Objects and
[01:16:30.719] another one called Extra Tempestrials.
[01:16:33.840] And it's these two books that they're
[01:16:36.159] the best theory UFO books since Jock
[01:16:39.120] Valle. In some ways, they're like even
[01:16:41.280] better than some of the Jacques. The
[01:16:42.560] Jacques stuff's amazing and set the
[01:16:44.560] foundation. But Masters really has an
[01:16:48.000] actual theory, which is these are humans
[01:16:49.520] from the future.
[01:16:50.719] And does he think does he have any
[01:16:53.280] explanation of how far maybe
[01:16:55.920] he doesn't, but he goes to like the
[01:16:58.239] actual accounts. He goes through like a
[01:17:00.000] bunch of accounts. And I'm telling you
[01:17:01.840] man, for every single one that say
[01:17:03.280] they're from Zeta Reticuli, Proxima
[01:17:04.960] Centauri or like random other you know
[01:17:06.880] solar systems uh or you know galaxies
[01:17:10.880] whatever uh uh they also say like we're
[01:17:14.560] from the future and and that is that is
[01:17:16.719] a consistent trope like a Jim Penn
[01:17:20.320] forest case 1980 like he was like you
[01:17:22.560] know 8,000 years in the future like
[01:17:24.400] that's what the you know aliens said
[01:17:25.920] they were they were from in many cases
[01:17:27.840] people have to do chemical rinses they
[01:17:29.679] don't infect
[01:17:30.719] the future with a foreign pathogen.
[01:17:32.640] There's some weird non non-inference
[01:17:34.640] principle where there's lost time. Maybe
[01:17:37.199] that's because you have these weird
[01:17:38.960] butterfly effects where like, you know,
[01:17:40.960] there has to be lost time or something.
[01:17:43.199] And so, I don't know if it's from the
[01:17:44.960] where I might disagree with masters is
[01:17:47.280] like I don't know if it's from the
[01:17:48.239] future. It could be some like
[01:17:50.320] extra temporal layer on top of reality.
[01:17:53.520] like whoever these entities are might
[01:17:56.400] have actually figured out some sort of
[01:17:58.080] time editing or time travel and they
[01:18:00.400] might be living like outside of our time
[01:18:02.560] bound kind of you know 3D world that
[01:18:05.760] where like you have Zeno's arrow of time
[01:18:08.080] you know where like it's you're like
[01:18:09.360] moving in this river that's like
[01:18:10.719] endlessly moving forward.
[01:18:12.159] Yeah. Now you're on it.
[01:18:13.120] Yeah. So I and I I don't know but like
[01:18:15.280] that would be I would speculate that is
[01:18:17.199] if you're just using scientific
[01:18:19.040] inductive thinking and principles that
[01:18:21.600] is the AAM's razor explanation for this.
[01:18:24.080] It's not you you're just making up like
[01:18:26.159] extraterrestrial stuff. I mean you're
[01:18:27.440] not you're not making it up there like
[01:18:28.640] Betty and Barney Hill is they said
[01:18:29.920] they're from Zeta Reticula. You have
[01:18:31.360] like cases where they say they're from
[01:18:33.520] other planets. You have plenty of those.
[01:18:35.440] But for every one of those you have
[01:18:37.760] again one that says you know we're time
[01:18:39.760] travelers. And then you have look at the
[01:18:41.360] actual observables and god it looks a
[01:18:43.440] lot more like time travelers to me than
[01:18:45.600] space travelers.
[01:18:46.560] Yeah. I I tend to I don't know if it's
[01:18:49.920] because it it's the most interesting one
[01:18:52.159] to me and it biases me but that's where
[01:18:55.440] my mind ends up always going. We get to
[01:18:57.440] the future humans argument. Now,
[01:19:00.080] Mitioaku actually makes a in my very
[01:19:04.080] humble opinion a great theoretical
[01:19:06.159] argument about time travel where he
[01:19:08.560] talks about the tributaries of time and
[01:19:11.600] effectively this is this is like a
[01:19:14.960] infantessimal or or infinite
[01:19:18.719] I guess like multi-dimensional theory
[01:19:20.640] where you talk about the butterfly
[01:19:22.640] effect where a butterfly literally flaps
[01:19:24.560] its wings and that can change an entire
[01:19:26.159] trajectory. You have that happening at
[01:19:28.159] every single level of every single thing
[01:19:29.520] that ever happens, including what
[01:19:30.800] happens in this room right now. So, at a
[01:19:32.800] high level example for a minute, he
[01:19:34.400] always points to say April 14th, 1865 at
[01:19:38.080] the Ford Theater when Abraham Lincoln
[01:19:39.760] gets killed.
[01:19:40.719] If you as a human right now, for some
[01:19:42.800] reason, had time travel and could go
[01:19:44.400] back and you went there
[01:19:46.080] and you [ __ ] uzzi John John Wils
[01:19:48.880] Booth in the head before he could do it,
[01:19:50.960] what he explains, and this makes sense
[01:19:52.719] to me, is that that does not change the
[01:19:54.960] reality of the time you're in. M
[01:19:56.800] it changes another version of that
[01:19:59.280] reality that now exists in its own
[01:20:01.600] dimension like the transistor radio is
[01:20:03.600] turned on another part
[01:20:04.960] forks
[01:20:05.520] right and so you change that so when we
[01:20:07.199] get to the argument I guess maybe maybe
[01:20:09.520] what masters was saying I'm not sure if
[01:20:11.040] it was what he was saying or what other
[01:20:12.640] people were based on what you were going
[01:20:14.080] through there because there was a lot
[01:20:15.280] but like when we get to that argument of
[01:20:17.120] like okay the future humans are coming
[01:20:19.040] here to then
[01:20:21.199] work with us in some ways and not I I
[01:20:24.800] forget what term you use but not do
[01:20:26.640] certain things so they [ __ ] up their
[01:20:28.159] future. Well, I'm not so sure that would
[01:20:30.400] be possible to [ __ ] up their future.
[01:20:32.480] It's more like they're experimenting for
[01:20:34.400] another version of their future.
[01:20:35.920] Yeah. Or maybe their future is [ __ ]
[01:20:37.760] and they have to come back and like try
[01:20:40.159] to reset the thing or like Yeah. move
[01:20:42.159] down for another dimen Yeah. Sure. Okay.
[01:20:44.800] Yeah. Yeah. I I don't you know this this
[01:20:47.120] all is like really speculative kind of
[01:20:49.199] not even wrong unfalsifiable stuff but
[01:20:52.239] yeah maybe it's some sort of multiverse
[01:20:54.159] branching or forking thing where like
[01:20:56.080] you can go back to a pivotal moment and
[01:20:59.679] then fork things in another direction
[01:21:02.320] and I I I don't know but I mean the
[01:21:04.080] nuclear connection would also point to
[01:21:05.520] that by the way
[01:21:06.080] you took the words you and I are on the
[01:21:08.400] same wavelength there's something going
[01:21:09.520] on here now the basil ganglas are acting
[01:21:12.000] up
[01:21:12.719] you took the words out of my mouth cuz
[01:21:14.560] there's two patterns here that we're not
[01:21:16.480] talking about. One of them you just
[01:21:17.840] brought up.
[01:21:18.320] Yeah.
[01:21:18.960] Specifically in the 20th century since
[01:21:20.640] World War II.
[01:21:21.600] Mhm.
[01:21:22.000] On the one hand, exactly what you just
[01:21:23.679] said, we have a strange connection since
[01:21:26.239] the Manhattan project of
[01:21:30.080] UFOs being spotted around nuclear sites
[01:21:32.880] where it's like, you know, that old Bob
[01:21:35.199] Salace line. It's like they're taking
[01:21:36.560] matches out of the hand of a baby and
[01:21:38.080] saying, "No, no, no, don't do that."
[01:21:39.520] Yeah. Right. And I I think I've heard
[01:21:42.640] you say this before, but it's also
[01:21:44.640] fascinating that so many of these things
[01:21:46.320] are happening where it's the highest
[01:21:48.320] level military people who are citing it
[01:21:50.800] who quite literally are so tested that
[01:21:52.800] if they take ibuprofen, they got to
[01:21:55.120] report that. So when you talk about
[01:21:56.719] sober people seeing this [ __ ]
[01:21:59.360] like you're not getting more sober than
[01:22:01.040] the dudes on these bases and yet they
[01:22:03.280] report a lot of the same things. The the
[01:22:05.679] alleged UFOs start [ __ ] with the
[01:22:07.600] nuclear codes and [ __ ] like that. And in
[01:22:09.920] the middle of all this, since World War
[01:22:11.840] II, when when James Fox went on Joe
[01:22:14.480] Rogan in April 2023, he did this
[01:22:17.199] unbelievable like 25inut just riff of
[01:22:21.280] all the history of UFOs since World War
[01:22:23.280] II that was just like, holy [ __ ] Like
[01:22:25.280] he's so into it and understands it.
[01:22:27.440] So many of these sightings, you kind of
[01:22:29.199] pointed this out a few minutes ago,
[01:22:30.880] they're they're in all different parts
[01:22:32.639] of the world. We're talking pre-
[01:22:34.159] internet before people could get in chat
[01:22:35.679] rooms and plan out hoaxes together and
[01:22:37.280] [ __ ] and different countries
[01:22:41.280] in
[01:22:42.880] all the same but there are a lot of the
[01:22:44.960] same themes you know the telepathy you
[01:22:47.440] described how these little gray men look
[01:22:49.199] and evolutionary what that could be and
[01:22:51.280] when I put into account say with one
[01:22:55.280] example the Zimbabwe case where
[01:22:57.280] allegedly telepathically the aliens said
[01:23:00.480] to the kids I forget what exactly it was
[01:23:02.960] But it was like be careful. Technology
[01:23:05.120] Yeah. could lead you down the wrong
[01:23:06.320] path.
[01:23:06.560] You destroy yourselves and you're
[01:23:07.920] destroying the environment. It was very
[01:23:09.280] envir environmentalist.
[01:23:10.719] Yeah. They're telling and and somewhere
[01:23:12.080] at home the conspiracy theories are
[01:23:13.360] being like goddamn Al Gore planting that
[01:23:15.040] one.
[01:23:17.199] Hey guys, if you have a second, please
[01:23:19.120] be sure to share this episode around on
[01:23:21.199] social media and with your friends,
[01:23:23.040] whether it's Reddit, Instagram,
[01:23:24.880] Facebook, Twitter, doesn't matter. It's
[01:23:26.960] all a huge help. It gets new eyeballs on
[01:23:29.360] the show and it allows us to grow and
[01:23:31.600] survive. So, thank you to all of you who
[01:23:33.600] have already been doing that and thank
[01:23:34.880] you to all of you who are going to do so
[01:23:36.320] now. But like you see the point they're
[01:23:38.320] they're like concerned and they're
[01:23:40.560] concerned at the same time where we have
[01:23:42.080] the power of the nuke and the atom bomb
[01:23:44.880] in our hands. And it's not like
[01:23:46.639] obviously we've been talking about
[01:23:47.920] history today. This stuff goes all the
[01:23:49.520] way back. It's not like it started at
[01:23:51.360] World War II, but it very clearly got
[01:23:54.000] some themes both in civilians who
[01:23:56.639] witnessed things that had a similarity
[01:23:58.480] that could point to future humans and to
[01:24:01.040] I don't know potentially future humans
[01:24:02.880] being here to say no, no, no, don't do
[01:24:05.199] that. You're going to [ __ ] up all these
[01:24:06.560] other dimensions if you do that? Like,
[01:24:09.360] do you think that that part of it, say
[01:24:11.600] the nuclear part and the sightings since
[01:24:14.080] World War II are more of an argument
[01:24:16.560] towards the future human side of it? M I
[01:24:19.840] do. Yeah, cuz like
[01:24:22.239] Jaylen Heinik, who is an astronomer who
[01:24:24.239] ran the like Air Force's front-facing
[01:24:26.639] program called Blue Book,
[01:24:28.560] which was like meant to explain away all
[01:24:30.560] the, you know, the UFO stuff, kind of
[01:24:32.159] rationalize, dismiss all this stuff out
[01:24:33.840] of hand.
[01:24:34.960] Um, and then he kind of became reformed
[01:24:36.800] afterwards and was like, actually, you
[01:24:38.480] know, I played a big part in the cover
[01:24:39.840] up and my orders were to kind of
[01:24:41.280] diminish this. His son, Paul Heinik,
[01:24:44.080] actually had this like very interesting
[01:24:45.679] line, which is like, why would they
[01:24:46.960] care? And I I think in some ways they'd
[01:24:50.080] care, you know, like you have like the
[01:24:51.600] Rogan always says like we're like we're
[01:24:53.120] like chimps with nukes. And so it's
[01:24:54.639] like, you know, that we are kind of
[01:24:55.840] interesting in some ways,
[01:24:57.679] but maybe not to the extent of like
[01:24:59.760] trying to change timelines and like
[01:25:01.520] ensure the sustenance of future
[01:25:03.120] timelines. And I'm not saying that's
[01:25:04.480] definitely what's happening, but if you
[01:25:05.760] were to do that, you would definitely re
[01:25:07.600] you would really care about our nuclear
[01:25:09.199] assets. Like that would be the thing
[01:25:11.199] that would be the Archimedes lever, the
[01:25:12.800] point of most leverage if you will,
[01:25:14.639] where you can you can affect that you
[01:25:16.480] kind of affect everything. You know, if
[01:25:17.840] you can stop the you know, the Cuban
[01:25:19.520] missile crisis, if there's some
[01:25:20.639] alternative timeline where like that
[01:25:22.159] happens, you know, that's where you
[01:25:23.840] would like jump in. Yes.
[01:25:25.600] And so this stuff does just consistently
[01:25:27.840] show up around around uh nuclear. So
[01:25:31.679] yeah, that I think that's like a one
[01:25:34.000] really good explanation for it. But also
[01:25:36.719] if like I don't know the world is like a
[01:25:39.440] gas station for like factions of aliens
[01:25:41.760] and like they're mining us for resources
[01:25:43.920] like that's another possible you know
[01:25:46.239] explanation for it where they just don't
[01:25:47.520] want us to blow ourselves up because you
[01:25:49.360] know again they're like extracting us
[01:25:51.120] for like other stuff.
[01:25:53.040] It's it's hard to say. I I don't know.
[01:25:55.040] But um I do think the uh time travel
[01:25:58.639] hypothesis doesn't get as much airtime
[01:26:01.280] as it deserves. like the
[01:26:02.639] extraterrestrial thing just seems like
[01:26:04.159] it was kind of forced on us at some
[01:26:06.800] point and uh yeah, I'm not I'm not I'm
[01:26:09.440] not at all sure. I think you have to
[01:26:10.560] kind of question all your assumptions
[01:26:11.920] when it comes to this stuff. You can't
[01:26:14.239] take anything kind of at face value and
[01:26:16.080] that the ET thing was really kind of
[01:26:18.159] like HG Wells War of the Worlds into
[01:26:20.639] like 50s movies like Invasion of the
[01:26:22.480] Body Snatchers and that sort of thing up
[01:26:24.800] until you know Alien versus Predator and
[01:26:27.199] like today and Independence Day and
[01:26:28.880] stuff. But like that's kind of like the
[01:26:30.719] meme sphere we've been given. But if you
[01:26:32.880] like actually look at it scientifically
[01:26:34.400] and just use first principles logic.
[01:26:36.800] I think the time travel thing is like
[01:26:38.480] you know this incredibly important
[01:26:40.159] component of this. And then there's like
[01:26:42.320] the idea that you know gravity and time
[01:26:45.040] are super related you know in general
[01:26:46.960] relativity as well. And so like maybe
[01:26:49.360] maybe you know gravity itself is sort of
[01:26:51.280] very anomalous. Like I'd say like
[01:26:53.120] gravity and time are like I'm not you
[01:26:55.600] know again at all a physics you know I'm
[01:26:58.560] not
[01:26:58.800] you sure should are talking like one.
[01:27:00.159] Well, I'm definitely not, but I just
[01:27:01.840] think like like if you you just like
[01:27:03.360] zoom out and like I do think in some
[01:27:05.840] ways experts can like not see the forest
[01:27:07.760] for the trees sometimes. And so like
[01:27:09.600] that's where I maybe can play a small
[01:27:11.440] role where it's like
[01:27:13.280] with you know gravity and time like
[01:27:16.560] gravity take gravity for example like
[01:27:18.239] you can't reconcile it with the other
[01:27:20.239] you know forces like it gravity breaks
[01:27:22.400] down at subatomic levels right like it's
[01:27:24.159] like why don't like electrons exhibit
[01:27:25.760] gravity it doesn't doesn't make sense
[01:27:27.600] and so like you know in in in in the
[01:27:29.760] quantum world like gravity does not make
[01:27:31.520] sense and then you could say like in GR
[01:27:34.320] you know general relativity like gravity
[01:27:36.159] makes sense but even like
[01:27:37.760] macroscopically like like or
[01:27:39.440] cosmologically rather like you need dark
[01:27:42.080] matter to like justify gravity's
[01:27:43.679] weakness and like dark matter is like
[01:27:45.920] maybe indirectly detectable at best but
[01:27:48.719] like not really detectable like it's
[01:27:50.320] kind of seems like this like
[01:27:51.360] mathematical placeholder and then
[01:27:53.360] gravity is like orders of magnitude
[01:27:55.040] weaker than the other three forces. So
[01:27:57.199] like I think it's a mathematical it's
[01:27:59.440] like curve fitting math to like make
[01:28:01.679] everything work. It's like to explain
[01:28:03.760] like planetary orbits. Like it's like
[01:28:06.320] you have gravity and then like it
[01:28:07.679] doesn't make sense on a subatomic level.
[01:28:09.199] Actually the quantum stuff is like way
[01:28:11.280] more useful than like GR when it comes
[01:28:13.120] to like building actual tech. So maybe
[01:28:15.040] there's something more onlogically true
[01:28:16.639] actually about the quantum stuff and
[01:28:18.719] gravity doesn't really make sense in
[01:28:20.080] either context in some ways. And then I
[01:28:22.239] would say like time is also weird like
[01:28:24.159] you have time dilation in relativity you
[01:28:26.880] know. Um
[01:28:27.600] could you explain time dilation to
[01:28:28.960] people who don't understand?
[01:28:29.840] Sure. time um you know is dependent on
[01:28:33.040] the observer. So if you're moving like
[01:28:35.520] way faster if you're moving you know
[01:28:37.679] faster uh uh uh as close as you can to
[01:28:40.400] the speed of light or whatever you're
[01:28:42.080] actually like aging slower. So this is
[01:28:43.600] like the twin paradox,
[01:28:45.120] which is, you know, that's that's kind
[01:28:46.560] of weird, right? And then like
[01:28:48.800] I'm pretty sure like in quantum stuff,
[01:28:50.880] time is mostly taken for granted or like
[01:28:54.159] at best it's like you can measure it in
[01:28:56.000] terms of like oscillations of like an
[01:28:58.159] electromagnetic wave. But like you look
[01:29:00.719] at like Schroinger's equation, it's just
[01:29:02.320] like over time the potential energy plus
[01:29:04.719] the kinetic energy equals the total
[01:29:06.239] energy of a system or whatever. But it's
[01:29:08.880] time is this weird thing. And like I
[01:29:12.400] think Wheeler and Dwit in the early 50s
[01:29:15.600] came up with this idea that maybe time
[01:29:17.280] is actually emergent and it's not
[01:29:18.800] fundamental
[01:29:20.239] which means
[01:29:21.840] it's not this like fun it's not this
[01:29:24.159] fundamentally it's it's uh based on
[01:29:27.280] measurement uh you know from the
[01:29:28.880] observer. It's not it's not this
[01:29:30.239] fundamentally moving thing that's like
[01:29:32.239] outside of you know the the observer's
[01:29:34.800] uh uh measurement. And so I I think and
[01:29:38.480] the math by the way is going to be
[01:29:39.840] totally above my my but like I think we
[01:29:43.120] we take time for granted like time is
[01:29:45.040] the most used noun in the English
[01:29:46.800] language and uh if you were to try to
[01:29:49.920] define it without respect to like the
[01:29:52.320] movement of bodies or whatever like the
[01:29:54.480] movement of macroscopic objects or
[01:29:56.719] without using the word time you'd have a
[01:29:59.120] a really hard time no pun intended. it
[01:30:02.560] would be really hard for you to do.
[01:30:04.239] And so and it actually pre- like
[01:30:06.400] mechanical clocks like in like medieval
[01:30:08.880] periods and prior it was like this very
[01:30:11.120] embodied thing. And so like I actually
[01:30:13.440] think epistemologically like we say it
[01:30:15.199] like time flies when you're having fun
[01:30:16.880] or like it slows like also probably when
[01:30:19.840] you're having like a great time like it
[01:30:21.199] feels like you're in this like time
[01:30:22.320] vortex right
[01:30:24.000] and so I think time is just this very
[01:30:25.920] very weird thing that we don't
[01:30:27.199] understand and like just like you have
[01:30:30.320] Newton's theory that was kind of couched
[01:30:32.960] within Einstein's theory which came
[01:30:34.719] later um you can you can place Newton
[01:30:38.960] inside of Einstein. Who's to say that
[01:30:41.760] like Schrodener's equation isn't an
[01:30:44.800] effective equation that's placed inside
[01:30:47.280] of some larger equation in which time is
[01:30:50.880] you know the Archimedes lever that that
[01:30:52.880] causes superp positionality in position
[01:30:54.800] and momentum if that makes sense. So
[01:30:57.280] like so like uh um
[01:30:58.800] Jane is looking at me like you out too.
[01:31:01.760] I mean it it all sounds like kind of
[01:31:04.639] crazy but it's like like you have this
[01:31:07.120] you know this wave equation you have
[01:31:08.880] like coordinates of like position and
[01:31:10.880] momentum like why why wouldn't you maybe
[01:31:14.159] maybe you could have coordinates of
[01:31:15.520] actual time and time is like does it
[01:31:17.760] make sense that position that like an
[01:31:19.600] electron would be like super positional
[01:31:21.600] as far as like its position or momentum
[01:31:23.520] doesn't make sense
[01:31:24.639] it doesn't make any sense like in terms
[01:31:25.920] of like the onlogical treat and that's
[01:31:27.280] why you had all these debates between
[01:31:28.480] the Copenhagen school and Einstein
[01:31:30.880] you know around like does this matter
[01:31:32.560] for ontological truth or what you know
[01:31:34.880] how do you interpret the quantum stuff
[01:31:36.400] like this you know Einstein's like this
[01:31:38.080] can't be like we need an explanation for
[01:31:39.920] this um and so I all I'm saying is like
[01:31:43.040] I think time could be this really
[01:31:44.560] interesting place to look gravity could
[01:31:46.159] be this really interesting place to look
[01:31:47.520] as far as like where we're off and it's
[01:31:50.320] why you know like you have Eric
[01:31:52.480] Weinstein like criticizing like string
[01:31:54.880] theory to no end.
[01:31:56.239] Yeah. And it's because of this like
[01:31:58.800] study of quantum gravity, this trying to
[01:32:00.880] like locate gravity in the quantum and
[01:32:03.840] getting lost in this like crazy abstract
[01:32:05.920] math in the form of string theory. And
[01:32:08.880] so yeah, I think I think if you were if
[01:32:10.960] you were trying to make like actual
[01:32:12.400] inroads in physics, you'd look at those
[01:32:13.920] two things. You look at time, you'd look
[01:32:15.199] at gravity.
[01:32:17.199] I think I I it's amazing explanation. I
[01:32:20.159] I I I understood about half of it, but I
[01:32:23.360] think
[01:32:23.600] I think I understood about half of it,
[01:32:25.040] too. You're like, you're like Will
[01:32:27.199] Ferrell in old school. Like, I don't
[01:32:28.639] know what happened up there. I blacked
[01:32:29.840] out.
[01:32:30.639] Literally. Yeah.
[01:32:32.080] But I when when you when you hear how
[01:32:34.719] string theory theoretically
[01:32:36.960] is explained,
[01:32:38.320] it makes a ton of sense. Obviously, the
[01:32:41.120] criticism is that it hasn't shipped a
[01:32:43.199] product yet and it's been around for 50
[01:32:45.440] odd years or so. And I think Eric is
[01:32:50.080] perhaps raising an important question
[01:32:52.880] just for like science as a community of
[01:32:55.280] like, hey, why is there a little bit of
[01:32:58.320] a of a of a moat around the around the
[01:33:02.960] castle here where we can't talk about
[01:33:05.199] whether or not there's actually
[01:33:06.880] something really below string theory
[01:33:09.280] that explains it more or the idea could
[01:33:12.000] be wrong. Right.
[01:33:13.040] String theory makes no sense to me.
[01:33:15.199] Why does it not make sense? approach
[01:33:16.800] philosophically. It's like it's like you
[01:33:19.440] know when people are like you know COVID
[01:33:21.120] didn't come from a lab or whatever and
[01:33:22.960] I'm like what do you mean and they're
[01:33:24.880] like or or if they say like you know
[01:33:26.639] gain of function research is like super
[01:33:28.639] super valuable like we needed to do it
[01:33:30.480] or something and then you're like when
[01:33:33.199] has there ever been a case where you've
[01:33:34.960] enga where you know the world is engaged
[01:33:36.800] in gain of function research where
[01:33:38.000] they've come up with a cure because you
[01:33:40.320] figured out some pathogen in a lab
[01:33:41.840] setting like we're motivated by like
[01:33:43.120] millions of people dying uh and now and
[01:33:46.800] you know CO's out and we can't come up
[01:33:48.639] with a cure now. And so I think the way
[01:33:50.800] I would analogize that like I think
[01:33:52.880] that's just like it's just like bad
[01:33:54.239] thinking. I think this is bad thinking
[01:33:56.159] because it's like you have two things.
[01:33:57.520] You have quantum field theory and you
[01:33:59.679] have general relativity. And like when
[01:34:02.480] have we ever had two theories in the
[01:34:06.800] past where like they involve a lot of
[01:34:09.120] like abstract math and like equations
[01:34:11.679] and we try to like mash together like we
[01:34:14.239] try like I think like science is only
[01:34:17.920] it's not it's the map it's not the
[01:34:19.600] territory right science is useful in
[01:34:22.000] that you can create technology out of it
[01:34:24.320] and you can predict things from it and I
[01:34:26.719] I I don't know like you can't really
[01:34:28.159] come up with a third thing like maybe
[01:34:29.280] you can come up with a third thing but
[01:34:30.400] that's my That's my heristic for like
[01:34:32.080] good science. It does not it does not
[01:34:34.320] reflect ontological truth. It's it's
[01:34:37.120] really I think it's true in so far as it
[01:34:39.440] is useful. So I'd say like the quantum
[01:34:41.120] stuff feels more true than the you know
[01:34:43.920] cos cosmology stuff because that just
[01:34:45.840] feels like all this patchwork we've
[01:34:47.760] built up that's again it's like very
[01:34:50.000] human kind of curve fitted math or
[01:34:52.080] whatever. And so so you have two maps,
[01:34:54.239] right? Like string theory is like
[01:34:56.800] jamming the maps together like like like
[01:34:59.920] the maps themselves are not again it's
[01:35:02.000] not the territory. You could like if you
[01:35:03.600] somehow had like were able to trace the
[01:35:05.679] territory you could create you know this
[01:35:07.840] perfect map but you don't you have these
[01:35:10.080] two really bad maps or not really bad
[01:35:12.159] but like imperfect like human-based you
[01:35:14.800] know maps and you're just jamming them
[01:35:16.719] together and that does not make sense
[01:35:19.040] philosophically to me if that makes
[01:35:20.560] sense. Like I think you have to like go
[01:35:22.239] down the tree trunk and like find
[01:35:23.840] another brand like look for like other
[01:35:25.920] like offramps and like I I think I think
[01:35:28.239] there's something around
[01:35:29.760] I don't know there the the air the
[01:35:32.000] territory you often get into with the
[01:35:33.600] UFO thing is like electromagnetism being
[01:35:35.920] somehow like really really fundamental
[01:35:37.600] and really important like we have four
[01:35:39.040] forces in physics and the only one you
[01:35:41.199] can manipulate in a lab is
[01:35:42.960] electromagnetism
[01:35:44.480] and then you have the strong force the
[01:35:46.639] weak force and gravity. gravity. Again,
[01:35:48.159] we already talked about how it's kind of
[01:35:49.920] anomalous.
[01:35:50.960] The weak force and strong force, like
[01:35:52.239] these things are above my
[01:35:53.840] sort of pay grade,
[01:35:55.280] but like I don't know, like maybe you
[01:35:57.120] could figure out some way to like derive
[01:35:58.639] them from like electromagnetism or
[01:36:00.400] something. Like electromagnetism just
[01:36:02.480] feels like the most useful for sure. You
[01:36:05.600] could do a lot with Maxwell's equations.
[01:36:07.520] Do you ever wonder if like some of this
[01:36:09.760] like I'm not even saying just string
[01:36:11.600] theory but just on a general level if
[01:36:13.360] some of these things that maybe haven't
[01:36:15.199] been proven but are so believed in by
[01:36:17.199] very smart people in many cases. Do you
[01:36:20.159] ever wonder if that is also like some of
[01:36:23.679] these guys maybe have been read in so to
[01:36:25.920] speak and there are things that are
[01:36:27.600] beyond our comprehension of what we
[01:36:29.280] understand right now that behind the
[01:36:30.719] scenes they have that perhaps would
[01:36:32.159] explain something like this and this is
[01:36:33.760] like kind of the dangle little cat's
[01:36:35.520] ball to play with. Well, The UFO thing
[01:36:37.760] is like a dangle.
[01:36:38.639] Sure. Sure. But but well, actually, no.
[01:36:41.760] What I'm more I'm I'm Let's Let's
[01:36:43.679] actually pull string theory into it,
[01:36:45.440] right? Perhaps behind the scenes, and it
[01:36:48.159] could involve UFOs and other things,
[01:36:50.000] something like that has been proven or
[01:36:51.840] disproven. Doesn't even matter what it
[01:36:53.360] is,
[01:36:53.840] but that's like kind of a distraction
[01:36:55.679] for everyone to fight about publicly
[01:36:57.199] because they don't want people to know.
[01:36:59.360] Yeah.
[01:36:59.840] What they got going on over here in in
[01:37:02.000] DARPA,
[01:37:04.000] maybe. Yeah. So it's sort of like this
[01:37:05.520] red herring distraction against like
[01:37:07.440] real tech like sure or like weapons
[01:37:09.920] testing or something.
[01:37:10.960] Sure.
[01:37:11.760] Possibly.
[01:37:13.280] Yeah. I mean another way to put it is
[01:37:15.760] like if we have like a Manhattan project
[01:37:18.800] 2.0. So it's like you the first
[01:37:20.560] Manhattan project is like payload
[01:37:23.119] potency, right? So it's like uh the atom
[01:37:26.239] bomb up until like thermonuclear like
[01:37:28.960] you know hydrogen zarbomb type stuff or
[01:37:31.840] whatever. And you get you're getting
[01:37:33.520] like greater and greater and greater
[01:37:34.880] magnitude up until like the point where
[01:37:36.800] like this stuff is actually like you had
[01:37:38.880] even like Oenheimer debating teller
[01:37:40.880] being like you know this is too big for
[01:37:42.560] any target or whatever. If you think
[01:37:44.800] about like the Manhattan project 2.0
[01:37:47.199] it's the world of like stealth and on.
[01:37:49.920] So it's like payload delivery. It's not
[01:37:51.520] about payload potency. And so you have
[01:37:54.000] like you know the F-17, you have the B2
[01:37:57.199] stealth bomber. who have, you know, all
[01:38:00.080] all of these, you know, things that like
[01:38:02.560] the the the goal is for them to like be
[01:38:04.239] like, you know, to not detectable by
[01:38:06.480] like radar and all, you know, um
[01:38:09.199] adversary, you know, detection methods
[01:38:11.600] and and deliver, you know, the payload.
[01:38:14.719] And so like I do think in in in in some
[01:38:18.719] ways uh if you take Carl Nell at face
[01:38:22.719] value, you know, he set up Army Futures
[01:38:24.560] Command and he was on the UAP task force
[01:38:26.480] with David Grush. If you take him at
[01:38:29.199] face value, then he's saying we're in an
[01:38:31.119] arms race to reverse engineer craft that
[01:38:34.080] has been retrieved uh with Russia and
[01:38:36.639] China. Like they have similar programs.
[01:38:38.960] And so if you're trying to reverse
[01:38:40.239] engineer like hyper light drive like
[01:38:42.320] faster than light craft or craft that
[01:38:43.920] like breaks conservation of momentum and
[01:38:45.840] like you know goes at speeds that like
[01:38:48.480] you know we could we could never hope
[01:38:50.080] for with chemical combustion
[01:38:52.560] um then in some sense you could call
[01:38:55.360] that like the Manhattan project 2.0 know
[01:38:57.679] and that because that again that's like
[01:38:59.360] the more important vector along which
[01:39:01.440] you're making progress visa v your
[01:39:03.040] adversaries and so I don't know is that
[01:39:06.880] just like the UFO thing or do we have
[01:39:10.159] other craft that we're working on you
[01:39:12.239] know that you know is purely like ma
[01:39:15.040] man-made or terrestrial I'm not sure but
[01:39:17.600] I think you have to be like thinking
[01:39:18.880] about all this stuff uh for sure and
[01:39:22.080] because that would be the vector along
[01:39:23.679] which the US needs to make progress and
[01:39:26.239] you might need to increase the surface
[01:39:28.320] area of knowledge around that thing
[01:39:31.440] without maybe spilling the beans on it
[01:39:33.840] or like sort of like you you want like
[01:39:36.080] the right talent like the right STEM
[01:39:37.840] student in the US knowing about it. Yes.
[01:39:40.239] But you don't want you know adversaries
[01:39:42.719] knowing anything about it. And so like
[01:39:44.400] maybe a good world in that in that you
[01:39:46.639] know in that worldview or whatever is
[01:39:48.480] one in which like you know random phenom
[01:39:52.159] electrical engineer in Kentucky grows up
[01:39:55.360] on the internet he's aware of this stuff
[01:39:58.000] and like you know wants to like get
[01:40:00.400] involved or whatever but like China and
[01:40:03.199] Russia still like have no idea how it
[01:40:04.960] works because it's all alien or
[01:40:06.880] whatever.
[01:40:07.520] Yeah.
[01:40:08.000] Um but then it's just messy man. Like,
[01:40:11.040] you know, you can get cynical and like,
[01:40:12.560] you know, have that be your worldview
[01:40:14.480] where it's like all some like limited
[01:40:16.159] hangout tech protection thing
[01:40:18.239] and like it's just not like like like
[01:40:21.199] you look at the UFOs and nukes thing.
[01:40:23.360] It's like you have like 170 credible
[01:40:26.480] witnesses since like the 50s and 60s.
[01:40:30.000] You know, you mentioned Bob Salis that
[01:40:31.760] was 67. You think we had like stuff that
[01:40:34.960] was like, you know, hyper light drive
[01:40:36.480] craft then? Like no, we definitely
[01:40:38.400] didn't. Unless like I'm like way off on
[01:40:41.199] my understanding of like physics.
[01:40:42.639] The Nazis Unless the Nazis from
[01:40:44.159] Paperclip were up to some [ __ ]
[01:40:45.679] Yeah, they might have figured a thing or
[01:40:47.119] two out for sure. But like a thing that
[01:40:49.440] could like fully disarm like the most
[01:40:52.480] encrypted like NSA, you know, like our
[01:40:54.719] like crown jewel assets, like I I just
[01:40:56.960] don't know.
[01:40:58.080] And like Roswell like 47 like did like
[01:41:01.119] the I mean that's just it just feels a
[01:41:02.960] little crazy. Um, and then and then if
[01:41:04.960] you believe the, you know, the Grush
[01:41:06.320] stuff, which I do, like you have Magenta
[01:41:07.840] in like 33. You have you have stuff
[01:41:09.600] going back like a while. And so I just
[01:41:12.080] think it's this like extremely
[01:41:13.600] complicated um, you know, it's like
[01:41:17.520] extremely complicated territory to
[01:41:19.360] traverse terrain.
[01:41:21.199] Um, and and by the way, that's positive
[01:41:23.600] sum for there being SCOPs because a lot
[01:41:26.159] of people think that SCOP, you know, the
[01:41:28.080] idea that there's a scop and there's
[01:41:29.440] something real, that's zero sum. And so
[01:41:32.480] if the thing is not real, there's more
[01:41:35.360] likely to be, you know, a a scop. Or if
[01:41:38.560] there's no scop, the thing is, you know,
[01:41:40.800] um less likely to be real or whatever.
[01:41:42.719] What's up is down, what's down is up.
[01:41:44.159] There are positive sum. If if there is a
[01:41:46.880] scop around a thing, it's probably
[01:41:48.960] because the thing is real and maybe it's
[01:41:50.800] co-optable and ephemeral, but it's it's
[01:41:52.719] real. And so uh you know, the idea that
[01:41:55.199] there's a scop around a thing means that
[01:41:56.880] there is probably an underlying reality
[01:41:58.880] under it, too. even if it's not the
[01:42:01.040] reality you think it might be.
[01:42:02.639] Sure, the tip of the iceberg might not
[01:42:04.159] look like the rest of the iceberg.
[01:42:05.280] I'm completely with you on that. And I
[01:42:06.960] feel like we have the these religious
[01:42:09.199] beliefs that either are like, "No,
[01:42:11.199] there's no sign up because they're just
[01:42:13.280] trying to help." You know, when you talk
[01:42:15.440] about like people from the military or
[01:42:17.199] intelligence coming out and talking
[01:42:18.400] about this stuff and then on the other
[01:42:19.760] side like, "No, it's complete scup. It's
[01:42:21.520] all [ __ ] There's nothing there."
[01:42:23.040] Yeah.
[01:42:23.679] I I I don't believe either. I I think
[01:42:25.920] it's a mix like you say and and I want I
[01:42:28.080] want to get to Grush and Alzando and
[01:42:30.719] stuff. Obviously, you have a a long-term
[01:42:33.600] relationship you you you've had with
[01:42:35.040] with David Grush. I think you were like
[01:42:36.480] one of the first guys to know him. But
[01:42:39.119] as far as when he was doing this stuff
[01:42:40.480] and and revealing some info, but to to
[01:42:43.040] go back to the earliest part of history,
[01:42:44.719] cuz I know you know a lot about this
[01:42:46.400] stuff and it's so fascinating to me that
[01:42:48.400] there's there's two things that happened
[01:42:50.159] in the 1940s
[01:42:52.400] that
[01:42:54.080] really just like set the set the bar for
[01:42:57.679] this space. The first thing is the
[01:42:59.199] affforementioned Manhattan project that
[01:43:00.800] you brought up where we build the nuke
[01:43:02.719] or whatever.
[01:43:03.360] Yeah. The second thing, which is
[01:43:05.440] supposedly separate, but then ends up
[01:43:06.960] kind of being related, is Roswell, which
[01:43:08.639] happens out west as well. Allegedly,
[01:43:10.560] these aliens landed there, whatever, and
[01:43:12.960] then there was this cover up, but like
[01:43:14.960] with with the Manhattan Project, I've
[01:43:17.119] heard you talk about this before on on
[01:43:19.280] some of your podcast episodes.
[01:43:22.239] What was the what was the t like what
[01:43:24.719] was the
[01:43:27.280] the depth of the discussion that like
[01:43:29.760] Oenheimer
[01:43:31.199] had around UFOs while he was out there
[01:43:35.119] working on this project and were there
[01:43:36.800] things that were potentially seen or
[01:43:39.040] what was going on there?
[01:43:40.320] We don't know. But there's a book called
[01:43:43.280] UFO secrecy in the rob and the fall of
[01:43:45.280] Robert J. Oenheimer by a guy named
[01:43:46.800] Donald Berles. He's an Air Force guy.
[01:43:49.600] And there are some weird things around
[01:43:52.080] that kangaroo court that was held where
[01:43:53.920] he lost his Q Q clearance where like the
[01:43:58.480] premise of the book is that it wasn't
[01:44:00.080] around him socializing with, you know,
[01:44:02.000] possible communist spies or whatever in
[01:44:03.760] the 30s and that actually it could have
[01:44:07.119] been around some of this UFO stuff. And
[01:44:09.280] a lot of the quotes like from the
[01:44:10.880] Kangaroo court is he's he's saying
[01:44:12.880] between 45 and 49 a lot happened. And he
[01:44:15.440] keeps saying that it's like this
[01:44:16.480] recurring thing. And if you actually
[01:44:18.639] think about like the bomb itself, it was
[01:44:20.159] 41 through 45 and all the crash all the
[01:44:22.960] the lore around UFO crashes 45 through
[01:44:25.440] 49. So maybe there's, you know,
[01:44:27.199] something interesting there. John von
[01:44:28.880] Noman who's defending him uh in one of
[01:44:31.360] these kangaroo courts is saying, you
[01:44:33.920] know, it took him a while to get
[01:44:35.520] adjusted to the Buck Rogers universe
[01:44:37.360] that we're living in. He might have been
[01:44:39.199] referring to just nuclear weapons. I
[01:44:41.280] mean, that's like a weird weird univer.
[01:44:43.119] Buck Rogers is this comic strip at the
[01:44:44.880] time and it's all about like space
[01:44:46.560] travel and time travel and so and then
[01:44:49.360] um the uh uh Gordon Gray is this North
[01:44:53.760] Carolina lawyer who was rumored to be on
[01:44:56.000] the Majestic 12 who you know Truman and
[01:44:58.239] and Eisenhower's sort of council around
[01:45:00.639] UFOs and he was overseeing he was an
[01:45:03.840] actual guy he was overseeing uh you know
[01:45:06.480] this kangaroo court with with
[01:45:07.840] Oppenheimer and so there's some
[01:45:09.119] interesting possible data points there
[01:45:11.520] and And I'm trying to think of other
[01:45:13.760] like like Condan who's you know the guy
[01:45:16.080] who writes the protocols for um atomic
[01:45:19.600] secrecy which gets overlaid onto UFO
[01:45:22.960] secrecy. He writes the McMahon act
[01:45:24.719] around atomic secrecy which is 1946. A
[01:45:27.679] lot of that language gets used in the
[01:45:29.040] atomic uh uh energy act of 1954 which
[01:45:32.400] creates the atomic energy commission and
[01:45:34.080] the DOE. And so you have this guy who's
[01:45:37.600] he's a close confidant of Oppenheimer.
[01:45:39.760] This guy, you know, Edward Condan, he
[01:45:41.280] wrote the first English language test
[01:45:43.119] textbook on quantum mechanics. He
[01:45:44.639] studied with Oppenheimer at Gotten in
[01:45:46.320] German in Germany in the 30s.
[01:45:48.719] He grew up uh in Alamagordo right next
[01:45:51.280] to Los Alamos and helps pick Los Alamos
[01:45:53.199] as a spot for the Manhattan Project. He
[01:45:54.960] wrote the Los Alamos primer which every
[01:45:56.719] single employee had to read upon
[01:45:59.199] uh joining uh uh uh Los Alamos. and and
[01:46:03.280] then six weeks into the Manhattan
[01:46:05.199] Project, he clashes with General Leslie
[01:46:07.760] Groves, you know, Matt Damon's character
[01:46:09.679] in Oenheimer,
[01:46:11.280] uh, around UFO secrecy and then he goes
[01:46:13.360] on to write the UFO secrecy protocols
[01:46:15.280] and then his Q clearance is also
[01:46:16.880] stripped around 5354.
[01:46:19.280] So, it's this weird that's this weird
[01:46:20.880] connection and then 66 he forms the
[01:46:23.119] Condan Commission. He's given his
[01:46:24.400] clearance back in this really dubious
[01:46:26.239] weird way. We can get into the details
[01:46:28.159] around that.
[01:46:28.880] Yeah. And then Well, okay. So he's given
[01:46:32.080] his Q clearance back by a guy named Lou
[01:46:33.920] Branscomm who's on the Jason advisory
[01:46:35.679] committee. You know Jasons are like this
[01:46:37.440] very hardcore group when it comes to you
[01:46:39.920] know overall like very high level you
[01:46:41.840] know US defense strategy and Lou
[01:46:44.560] Branscom is this understudy uh from his
[01:46:46.960] Harvard days uh from Don Menzel and um
[01:46:51.679] Don Menzel is also rumored to be on the
[01:46:54.480] Majestic 12. Again, I don't know if he
[01:46:56.239] was, but he's this top astronomer who is
[01:46:58.639] this professional UFO debunker. For some
[01:47:01.760] reason, it like feels like it's this
[01:47:03.440] guy's job to be like an, you know, a UFO
[01:47:05.520] debunker. So, you have his like direct
[01:47:07.199] understudy like giving Condan his his uh
[01:47:10.960] clearance back. And then I think that
[01:47:13.760] was like used as like bait to like get
[01:47:16.000] Condan basically to like do their
[01:47:18.560] bidding and basically say like you have
[01:47:20.480] to like squash this subject. And the
[01:47:22.239] reason I think that is because in the
[01:47:23.760] background there's this Washington FBI
[01:47:26.239] field agent named Guy Hodddle who's
[01:47:28.800] basically building a ton of compromat on
[01:47:31.679] Condan himself. And if you actually look
[01:47:34.480] at the Hodddle memo on the FBI website,
[01:47:36.800] it's the number one document on the FBI
[01:47:38.800] website. It's literally the most the
[01:47:40.400] most read document on the FBI website. M
[01:47:43.040] it's a memo that is written to Hodddle
[01:47:45.360] by, you know, an Air Force guy saying
[01:47:48.159] that, you know, he's found a UFO that's
[01:47:50.880] crashed with, you know, its whole crew
[01:47:53.040] intact or whatever. So, we know that
[01:47:54.880] Hodddle was at least knowledgeable of
[01:47:57.360] the UFO phenomena at the very least,
[01:47:59.600] like at a high level. And he's building
[01:48:01.920] this kind of dossier on Condan. And then
[01:48:05.040] Condan gets his clearance back under
[01:48:07.280] very mysterious circumstances. And even
[01:48:09.199] in an American Institute of Physics
[01:48:10.960] interview that he gives Condan, uh the
[01:48:13.840] guy the interviewer is like, "Were you
[01:48:15.360] given your clearance back because of
[01:48:16.800] specific US UFO cases that you had to
[01:48:19.840] review as part of the Condan
[01:48:21.520] Commission?"
[01:48:22.639] And he gets all weird about it and like
[01:48:25.040] he like repeats himself like a million
[01:48:26.639] times like maybe I saw like a movie or
[01:48:28.239] two or something, but like no, I didn't
[01:48:29.679] need my I didn't need my clearance back.
[01:48:31.520] And like I you know, it sounds like he's
[01:48:33.840] kind of covering for something. And so
[01:48:35.600] you have this weird connection between
[01:48:37.040] him and Oppenheimer. And the final thing
[01:48:38.880] I'll say, and I don't know, you know, I
[01:48:41.920] don't know what this means, but it's
[01:48:43.199] like I think
[01:48:46.080] sometimes if you're if you're if you're
[01:48:47.679] like creating this big atomic blast. I
[01:48:50.560] think in some ways like like uh uh
[01:48:52.400] you're creating like a big force, you're
[01:48:54.480] getting closer and closer to like like
[01:48:56.320] levels of onlogical truth. Like my guess
[01:48:58.480] would be like the Manhattan project.
[01:48:59.920] Maybe you figure something out and then
[01:49:01.119] like CERN like maybe you figure
[01:49:03.040] something like like maybe it's more than
[01:49:05.360] like the Higsfield or something that you
[01:49:06.960] figure out with like the large hat
[01:49:08.560] collider
[01:49:09.520] and so like maybe
[01:49:11.440] maybe you get deeper into ontological
[01:49:13.040] truth like and in in this case in CERN's
[01:49:15.360] case it's electric plasma thrusters and
[01:49:17.520] in in the Manhattan Project's case it's
[01:49:19.600] like you know um it's a you know
[01:49:23.040] uncontrolled nuclear fusion or whatever.
[01:49:25.280] Um, and so, uh, yeah, I I I mean, I
[01:49:30.320] don't know, but, um,
[01:49:31.600] what was the name of that book again
[01:49:33.600] about
[01:49:34.320] It's called U, uh, uh, uh, UFO secrecy.
[01:49:37.520] The it's, uh, UFO secrecy and the fall
[01:49:39.760] of Robert J. Oppenheimer. So he's
[01:49:41.760] putting together through
[01:49:45.440] a lot of secondary sources, meaning like
[01:49:47.760] not Oppenheimer himself, but other
[01:49:49.600] people around the situation and evidence
[01:49:51.600] we can collect to circumstantially say
[01:49:56.560] if this, then that, if this, then that,
[01:49:58.719] if this, then that, then that, then
[01:50:00.080] that, then that. Because there's a there
[01:50:02.560] why are all these different people in
[01:50:04.560] the orbit acting in this way?
[01:50:07.440] Mhm.
[01:50:08.080] To get rid of this guy in particularly
[01:50:11.280] who may know this thing about UFOs.
[01:50:14.239] So it's circumstantial, but he builds up
[01:50:16.239] like a lot of bricks in the house, so to
[01:50:19.440] speak.
[01:50:20.000] Yeah. Yeah. It's completely
[01:50:21.119] circumstantial. There's no smoking gun,
[01:50:22.880] but he builds up a lot. By the way, I
[01:50:24.239] said I think fusion. I meant fision. But
[01:50:27.440] you're forgiven.
[01:50:29.119] Thank you. Thank you. you know, got to
[01:50:31.199] get it right. I know I know your
[01:50:33.360] audience, Julian, keeping me
[01:50:35.679] accountable, but um yeah, it's not
[01:50:37.360] there's no smoking gun. It's uh you
[01:50:39.600] know, a lot of circumstantial evidence,
[01:50:42.320] but it's interesting. I think it's
[01:50:44.239] worthy of followup and further
[01:50:46.239] investigation. There's also a 1971
[01:50:49.920] Australian document um written by their
[01:50:53.360] joint intelligence organization, the
[01:50:54.880] head of their nuclear division, a guy
[01:50:56.080] named Harry Turner. And it's really
[01:50:59.199] interesting there. There are a lot of
[01:51:00.159] these like UFO detonation experiments
[01:51:03.119] being done actually in Australia and
[01:51:05.520] Harry Turner is overseeing this
[01:51:07.360] presumably.
[01:51:08.000] UFO detonation.
[01:51:09.280] Sorry. UFO atomic detonation experiment.
[01:51:12.320] They're they're they're UFO detonation
[01:51:15.199] experiments. Yeah. You don't you're not
[01:51:16.719] familiar with that? Get on it, Julie.
[01:51:18.800] Yeah, let's get a video up.
[01:51:19.760] Uh yeah. Yeah, let's do it. Um AI like
[01:51:22.880] Sora or something. Um no, they're
[01:51:26.719] they're they're blowing up bombs there.
[01:51:28.159] And you think about Australia and it's,
[01:51:29.920] you know, good. There's a lot of a lot
[01:51:32.800] of desert. Yeah. Exactly.
[01:51:34.400] Um, and so he starts to think, you know,
[01:51:38.000] maybe there's more to this UFO story
[01:51:39.679] that, you know, I think they had had
[01:51:40.800] some UFO sightings around their nuclear
[01:51:43.360] stuff. And by the way, the other thing
[01:51:44.880] that makes sense about Oenheimer being
[01:51:46.320] read in is UFOs are crashing and showing
[01:51:49.280] up around, at least we know they're
[01:51:51.040] showing up because of UFOs and nukes,
[01:51:52.639] but maybe crashing around these sites.
[01:51:54.480] And so, you know, uh it would make sense
[01:51:56.960] that like somebody like an Oenheimer
[01:51:58.400] would be read in. And so Harry Turner is
[01:52:00.320] the, you know, Australian Oppenheimer or
[01:52:02.080] whatever. Like he starts to get
[01:52:04.400] interested in this and he starts to
[01:52:06.480] think that maybe the US and their
[01:52:08.639] inquiries into UFOs and anti-gravity are
[01:52:10.960] way more than meets the eye. This blue
[01:52:12.480] book, this whole blue book thing is
[01:52:14.000] like, you know, he's like, maybe this is
[01:52:15.280] just an op. And because you blue book is
[01:52:17.920] like the front-facing program that the
[01:52:19.360] Air Force has to again explain away
[01:52:21.440] everything, downplay everything. And we
[01:52:22.880] know this because of you know HP
[01:52:25.040] Robertson this Caltech physicist writes
[01:52:26.719] this memo in 1952 which was supposed to
[01:52:29.679] be you know it's been declassified since
[01:52:31.440] but it was supposed to be classified at
[01:52:32.880] the time and it was basically saying
[01:52:34.639] like blue book
[01:52:36.080] your mandate is to minimize this stuff
[01:52:38.639] explain it away it's swamp gas it's you
[01:52:40.480] know weird lights whatever balloon
[01:52:42.480] balloons weather balloons you know and
[01:52:45.119] you know minimize this stuff through
[01:52:46.320] media through narrative and storytell
[01:52:48.159] like it's it's very clear about what you
[01:52:50.159] know the goal is and so Harry Turner in
[01:52:52.960] Australia saying, you know, maybe this
[01:52:54.480] there's actually more to this. And he
[01:52:56.880] writes this, he does this investigation
[01:52:59.199] and I think this was probably right
[01:53:00.719] around when the five eyes are being
[01:53:02.639] formed as well,
[01:53:03.920] you know, where like there's there's
[01:53:05.280] more intelligence sharing between, you
[01:53:07.679] know, allied, you know, Australia, UK,
[01:53:11.040] you know, US, Canada, that sort of
[01:53:12.800] thing.
[01:53:13.760] And man, this document is crazy. You can
[01:53:16.800] actually look it out. Look it up. It's
[01:53:18.560] on um John Greenwald. like black vault
[01:53:21.040] or whatever you know this you know he
[01:53:22.800] has all these like you know old
[01:53:24.400] declassified documents and it is a
[01:53:27.599] comprehensive
[01:53:29.360] document that shows that the US had
[01:53:31.760] these like anti-gravity outposts they
[01:53:34.239] were studying gravity systematically
[01:53:36.080] CIA's office of scientific intelligence
[01:53:37.920] was studying this stuff and you had this
[01:53:39.920] guy Agnu Bonsson who's um you know UNCC
[01:53:43.360] uh you know the institute of field
[01:53:44.560] physics the UNCC Chapel Hill Bryce Dit
[01:53:46.880] is working with him uh then you have the
[01:53:49.360] gravity research foundation at MIT, you
[01:53:51.840] have in University of Indiana, you have
[01:53:53.840] Purdue, you have MIT, you have
[01:53:56.960] Princeton, and you have the Institute
[01:53:58.400] for Advanced Study, which I believe
[01:53:59.679] those two were different at the time,
[01:54:01.199] even though Institute for Advanced
[01:54:02.560] Studies are
[01:54:02.960] we in right now roughly
[01:54:04.000] we're in. So, he's writing this document
[01:54:06.159] in 1971, but all of those institutions,
[01:54:09.760] I mean, the academic institutions
[01:54:12.480] had been set up prior to this, but this
[01:54:14.159] is all like mid-century, like like 50s,
[01:54:16.880] like anti-gravity was super in vogue.
[01:54:18.960] People were really deep into into
[01:54:20.880] gravity research. So much so that Lewis
[01:54:23.199] Whitten, who's Ed Whitten, the greatest
[01:54:24.639] string theorist of all time, his, you
[01:54:26.320] know, his Lewis Whitten is is working at
[01:54:28.639] Martin Corporation, which is pre-locked
[01:54:30.560] Martin. He's working on in their
[01:54:32.320] anti-gravity division called RAS,
[01:54:34.400] research institute for advanced study,
[01:54:36.639] which is a play on IA, you know,
[01:54:38.239] Institute for Advanced Study. And he
[01:54:40.480] says, you know, we are going to figure
[01:54:42.080] out gravity in about the time that uh,
[01:54:44.800] you know, it took to build the first
[01:54:45.920] atom bomb. And you have, you know,
[01:54:48.159] Stanley Deser and Richard Arnowit
[01:54:50.000] working on these gravit gravity particle
[01:54:51.760] theory gravitons and you know and and so
[01:54:54.960] so uh anyway Lewis Whitten says gravity
[01:54:57.360] is in the wind you know meaning meaning
[01:55:00.000] it is everywhere but that maybe there's
[01:55:01.760] a sub actually reading to that which is
[01:55:04.719] in the wind is actually an intel spy
[01:55:06.480] term which means it's scattered
[01:55:07.840] everywhere. So like maybe like it's in
[01:55:10.719] the wind in that it's like
[01:55:12.080] compartmentalized in all these different
[01:55:13.840] places and there's some top of the
[01:55:15.119] pyramid view on like where that gravity
[01:55:16.880] research is headed. Who knows? It gets
[01:55:18.960] vaporized like in the early60s but it
[01:55:21.679] was extremely vital at the time. And so
[01:55:24.719] he meant I think when he said in the
[01:55:26.080] wind it was like you know it was
[01:55:27.360] ubiquitous. It was like very invogue and
[01:55:29.280] you have all these Ancel Talbert I
[01:55:31.760] believe was this Air Force guy who wrote
[01:55:33.280] a lot about it. you have this Michael
[01:55:34.719] Gladic art article called um here come
[01:55:37.280] the G engines and all of these like um
[01:55:40.639] you know patrons of aerospace are
[01:55:42.320] exuding supreme confidence that beating
[01:55:44.400] gravity is around the bend um and this
[01:55:47.360] ties in with the Chapel Hill conference
[01:55:49.840] uh where quantum gravity gets created in
[01:55:52.159] 1957 which was under Agnu Bonson at you
[01:55:55.119] know the institute of field physics at
[01:55:56.400] UNC Chapel Hill which you can see in
[01:55:58.400] this document is one of these outposts
[01:56:00.560] studying gravity and they're also
[01:56:03.040] simultaneously ly funding towns and
[01:56:04.480] brown who has his capacitor gravity
[01:56:06.400] experiments. And so anyways, all of this
[01:56:09.360] is to say Oppenheimer is listed as one
[01:56:11.520] of the scientists deeply involved in
[01:56:13.040] anti-gravity research.
[01:56:14.560] Oppenheimer, Teller, Wheeler,
[01:56:18.080] and Freeman Dyson are all mentioned as
[01:56:20.880] being, you know, really important to
[01:56:23.040] this story in that Australian document.
[01:56:25.440] And so, yeah, just to comprehensively
[01:56:28.159] answer your question about whether
[01:56:29.040] Oppenheimer was involved, I don't know.
[01:56:30.639] Oh, you answered it.
[01:56:32.480] That's that that's that's a lot.
[01:56:34.400] Essentially, it could be we're
[01:56:36.239] speculating here situation where for
[01:56:38.560] whatever reason in this research that
[01:56:40.560] could tie all the way to UFOs when we're
[01:56:42.320] talking about anti-gravity.
[01:56:43.360] Yeah.
[01:56:43.840] Oppenheimer may have
[01:56:46.480] either andor
[01:56:49.679] known too much or perhaps formulated an
[01:56:53.920] opinion behind the scenes that they
[01:56:55.599] didn't like.
[01:56:56.719] That could totally be true. Yeah. He
[01:56:58.960] would, you know, there's a book um
[01:57:01.199] called UFO crash by this UFO researcher,
[01:57:03.440] William Steinman, and there supposedly
[01:57:05.840] was a crash right after Roswell in
[01:57:08.159] Aztec, New Mexico, 1948. And Oppenheimer
[01:57:11.199] was rumored to be part of the collection
[01:57:13.599] crew.
[01:57:14.320] Collection crew.
[01:57:15.119] Yeah. Like the the crash retrieval guy.
[01:57:17.599] One of them.
[01:57:18.239] I need Killian Murphy at the site right
[01:57:19.920] now.
[01:57:22.639] I need that.
[01:57:23.440] Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, I don't know.
[01:57:26.400] You know, I it's unclear why they would
[01:57:28.239] have gone after him. You know, he was
[01:57:29.520] obviously like extremely idealistic in
[01:57:31.360] some ways. Yes.
[01:57:32.239] You know, he obviously regretted aspects
[01:57:34.400] of the B, you know, I've become
[01:57:36.960] I've become death, destroy of worlds.
[01:57:38.560] So,
[01:57:40.239] yeah, I don't I don't know, you know, I
[01:57:41.840] don't know where where he went astray or
[01:57:43.840] what happened or whether he was even
[01:57:45.119] involved in the UFO. This is all
[01:57:46.560] predicated on, you know, there being
[01:57:48.400] some core program that he was involved
[01:57:50.000] in. So, you have to think
[01:57:50.960] probabilistically. Again, there's a
[01:57:52.880] world in which maybe he wasn't, but
[01:57:54.480] and it would tie directly into the lore
[01:57:56.239] though, cuz it involves literally the
[01:57:57.679] godfather of nukes.
[01:57:58.639] Well, that's the thing. If you want like
[01:58:00.320] real disclosure, you like you have to
[01:58:02.480] look into the historical stuff like
[01:58:04.719] the theorizing, the crazy time travel
[01:58:06.639] [ __ ] That's so interesting. I love it.
[01:58:08.639] But it's like it's, you know, as Fineman
[01:58:10.719] would say, not even wrong, completely
[01:58:12.320] unfalsifiable. You like can run in
[01:58:14.159] circles like, you know, talking about
[01:58:15.760] this stuff. And then you know the other
[01:58:19.199] vector is like we are waiting on the
[01:58:21.440] government for disclos you know it's
[01:58:23.119] like it's like uh just please give us
[01:58:26.560] the information like we'll be you know
[01:58:28.239] we'll be fine we're not going to be
[01:58:29.440] freaked out or whatever and then there's
[01:58:31.599] like real historical research where it's
[01:58:33.199] like this stuff wasn't that long ago.
[01:58:34.480] We're talking like 70 years ago 75 years
[01:58:37.199] ago whatever. Um you know were these
[01:58:39.760] people at all entangled with the UFO
[01:58:41.440] story? We just made a $130 million movie
[01:58:43.280] about Oenheimer. Yeah,
[01:58:44.480] he's like the godfather of American
[01:58:45.920] science. You know, we should maybe just
[01:58:48.960] look into that. Like what did he know?
[01:58:51.040] Yeah. You and I were talking before we
[01:58:52.719] got on camera about the the concept of
[01:58:57.360] what's potentially known behind the
[01:58:59.199] scenes and therefore
[01:59:01.599] the argument becomes what should be
[01:59:03.360] disclosed. And cuz obviously people
[01:59:05.840] weren't listening while we were off
[01:59:06.960] camera. One of the things I brought up
[01:59:08.800] was a a very early podcast I did number
[01:59:12.239] 17 with my friend Alex Horowitz who
[01:59:14.400] comes from your world. He was one of the
[01:59:15.920] early employees at EightLe and got to
[01:59:18.719] spend a lot of time around the smartest
[01:59:21.520] dudes just like you, you know, for
[01:59:23.360] coming from the VC world and whatever.
[01:59:25.040] But you know he talked about things so
[01:59:27.040] matter of factly in that episode when we
[01:59:28.639] were talking about the power of social
[01:59:29.840] media and the the kind of strangle hold
[01:59:32.800] that has on society and thought. One of
[01:59:35.280] the things he said is that these
[01:59:37.599] companies referring to the social media
[01:59:39.199] companies and therefore also referring
[01:59:42.000] to the government and the power that the
[01:59:43.520] highest levels have they can simulate
[01:59:46.080] things ahead of time. M
[01:59:47.599] and what he expanded upon that with is
[01:59:50.080] he's like they can they have the power
[01:59:52.880] based on all the the amalgamated data
[01:59:55.840] that they can collect online of people's
[01:59:57.599] behaviors. They have the power to be
[01:59:59.760] able to put in a what if scenario and
[02:00:02.560] say how would overall society react
[02:00:05.599] based on all the personalities we've put
[02:00:07.840] together in a similar way by the way to
[02:00:09.760] what the Cambridge Analytica guys did in
[02:00:12.080] 2016 helping Trump out because they
[02:00:14.400] created digital profiles of everyone.
[02:00:16.400] Think of that with more time passed now
[02:00:18.880] on steroids. Yeah. And so he's like
[02:00:21.760] these organizations can figure out for
[02:00:24.480] example
[02:00:26.159] what if
[02:00:28.000] let's say we they knew behind the scenes
[02:00:29.920] a truth was that
[02:00:31.840] aliens exist. Here's the planet they're
[02:00:33.679] from. Here's when they've been here.
[02:00:34.960] Whatever. Here's what's not true. Here's
[02:00:36.320] what true. What if we told society this?
[02:00:38.800] What would happen perhaps? And this is
[02:00:41.440] where it gets into the do you take the
[02:00:43.360] side of intel cuz I mean I want to
[02:00:45.679] [ __ ] know. I I can handle it, right?
[02:00:47.599] You could handle it. But like across
[02:00:49.119] society it's like could people handle
[02:00:50.400] it. Perhaps if they've put in this what
[02:00:53.119] if in 2015 just to figure it out like oh
[02:00:56.159] [ __ ] we know what's going on or we've
[02:00:57.840] known what's going on. Could society
[02:00:59.119] handle this. If on the other side of
[02:01:01.199] that what if simulation it spit out that
[02:01:03.679] like yo this would create onlogical
[02:01:05.360] shock that would lead to the [ __ ]
[02:01:06.560] purge and people would all kill each
[02:01:07.760] other and the world would end and nukes
[02:01:09.040] would go off.
[02:01:09.679] Yeah.
[02:01:10.960] Well, now I'm on the side of
[02:01:12.320] intelligence going, "We can't [ __ ]
[02:01:13.679] tell them what's really going on." And
[02:01:15.760] that sucks, but it's like, and I don't I
[02:01:17.840] don't want to be like a status [ __ ]
[02:01:19.360] bootlicker like, "Yeah, you don't tell
[02:01:20.800] us, baby."
[02:01:21.920] But if they simulate it and it doesn't
[02:01:24.560] spit that out, and it's like, "Yo,
[02:01:25.840] people could handle this." And they're
[02:01:27.280] not telling us. Well, that pisses me the
[02:01:29.520] [ __ ] off.
[02:01:30.080] Totally.
[02:01:30.560] So, I don't know whether to be like,
[02:01:32.320] "Okay, all right." or like, "Fuck you."
[02:01:34.639] Yeah. I think the like judo move is like
[02:01:38.480] don't wait on the like do your own
[02:01:40.639] research. Like I I I think the idea that
[02:01:44.080] like onlogical truth is monopolized by
[02:01:46.719] government I think is overlying on the
[02:01:48.800] government. Like I I do think
[02:01:50.800] yeah if they were to like declassify
[02:01:52.639] everything immediately. I do think it
[02:01:54.080] would be onlogical onlogically shocking.
[02:01:56.320] I do think there are people in
[02:01:57.360] government that know crazy things about
[02:02:00.080] reality but in many ways they're
[02:02:01.679] artifacts about reality. It's like this
[02:02:04.159] thing, you know, this crash happened or
[02:02:05.920] whatever or like, you know, maybe this
[02:02:07.760] like weird topological physics
[02:02:09.119] principle, you know, like like all all
[02:02:10.719] these all these sorts of things that are
[02:02:12.239] probably like scattered throughout
[02:02:13.280] government that are like kind of like
[02:02:14.560] insane and and mindblowing and and
[02:02:16.800] crazy. But a lot of these things can be
[02:02:18.560] figured out through kind of your own,
[02:02:20.800] you know, open source techniques and
[02:02:22.480] through like your own, you know,
[02:02:23.840] inquiry. And I think it's almost this
[02:02:26.639] like litmus test or forcing function
[02:02:28.639] where like
[02:02:30.480] your ability to figure it out is almost
[02:02:32.880] like goes inhand with like your ability
[02:02:35.199] to handle it if you do like on your own
[02:02:38.159] figure it out on your own. And so yeah,
[02:02:40.880] I think this whole like waiting for this
[02:02:42.719] stuff to come out and like being super
[02:02:44.159] antsy about like you know some like you
[02:02:46.800] know government disclosure thing like
[02:02:48.800] it's it's just like this like amorphous
[02:02:50.639] bogeyman red herring. Like what is
[02:02:52.400] disclosure? Like what is that? You know,
[02:02:54.239] like if the government came out now,
[02:02:57.840] like the president came out now and said
[02:02:59.440] UFOs are real, you'd still have some
[02:03:01.360] subset of the population not believing
[02:03:02.880] it and super cynical about them saying
[02:03:04.480] it.
[02:03:05.199] If you see a video, you know, maybe
[02:03:06.800] that's like we live in the world of deep
[02:03:08.159] fakes.
[02:03:09.199] You like I just talked to you about
[02:03:10.800] like, you know, Stanford professor who's
[02:03:12.560] like got all the credentials you need
[02:03:14.239] saying like you have like, you know,
[02:03:15.520] mass spec isotope ratios don't exist
[02:03:18.080] naturally on Earth. And so like what
[02:03:21.199] actually is UFO disclosure? seeing like
[02:03:23.760] there are actually a lot of videos
[02:03:25.040] online. There are a lot of videos and
[02:03:26.400] there are a lot of videos that like are
[02:03:27.599] kind of hard to debunk,
[02:03:29.119] you know? So, we live in this like weird
[02:03:30.800] world of like the relativization of of
[02:03:34.239] facts, like the mass relativization of
[02:03:36.159] of truth and facts. It's almost like,
[02:03:38.719] you know, the dark ages of past was like
[02:03:41.440] a, you know, an darth of information.
[02:03:43.679] This is an excess of we're drinking from
[02:03:45.280] a fire hose of information. And so, I
[02:03:48.400] think that's like a really important
[02:03:49.599] question. just like what is disclosure
[02:03:51.520] and can you just use this, you know, can
[02:03:55.199] you actively like seek it out? And I I I
[02:03:57.199] don't think it's actually really healthy
[02:03:58.400] for a lot of people to like think about
[02:03:59.679] this all the time, you know. I think
[02:04:01.199] it's like for it's it's it's a it's it
[02:04:04.080] can be really like um hard for people
[02:04:06.320] and kind of, you know, it's like
[02:04:07.440] onlogically shocking like weird process.
[02:04:10.159] It gets religious, too. it gets
[02:04:11.679] religious and then like you know it's
[02:04:13.440] unclear exactly how it cashes out, you
[02:04:16.239] know, like it's like maybe maybe you end
[02:04:18.800] up in the program or something and then
[02:04:20.639] like and then what and then you're like
[02:04:22.159] maybe like sitting at a cubicle or
[02:04:23.760] something. Maybe you can do some higher
[02:04:25.840] level thing for them. I don't know. But
[02:04:27.440] like
[02:04:29.440] you know it's like you have all these
[02:04:30.639] people like on the internet like
[02:04:31.760] studying this stuff all the time and
[02:04:33.199] like so
[02:04:34.719] like like Charlie and it's always sunny.
[02:04:36.560] It's right there.
[02:04:37.199] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.
[02:04:39.280] Yeah. Yeah. And then and then there's
[02:04:40.320] the idea that like but reality itself is
[02:04:42.320] not monopolized by the government. Like
[02:04:43.760] you you know that that's like more of a
[02:04:45.920] religious thing. It's like you can you
[02:04:47.440] can just like look into that on your own
[02:04:49.280] for sure.
[02:04:50.400] But like it's
[02:04:53.040] it's strange that from say 1945ish
[02:04:57.040] that ballpark area.
[02:04:58.239] Yeah.
[02:04:58.719] Till 2017.
[02:05:00.320] Yeah.
[02:05:01.199] It was this,
[02:05:02.960] you know, Stephen Spielberg might make a
[02:05:04.560] movie.
[02:05:04.960] Yeah.
[02:05:05.520] We'll get a good Terminator or not
[02:05:07.360] Terminator. We'll get a good Alien
[02:05:08.960] versus Predator movie. Yeah. Or
[02:05:10.239] something like that. But like this is
[02:05:11.520] this is just a thing over there. It's
[02:05:13.440] not like
[02:05:14.960] Dr. Mitchioaku's out here talking about
[02:05:17.040] UFOs. It's not like you have serious
[02:05:19.840] people like a Gary Noling coming in and
[02:05:22.159] studying
[02:05:23.440] a lot of different things around this,
[02:05:24.880] not just the things that were retrieved,
[02:05:26.320] but things that have to do with the
[02:05:27.599] basil ganglia like you were explaining
[02:05:29.040] and all that. like it it became after
[02:05:33.040] 2017 there was a shift where suddenly
[02:05:36.239] there was like a decision to pull it
[02:05:38.000] more mainstream and we mentioned it
[02:05:39.360] earlier but it starts with Christopher
[02:05:41.199] Melon
[02:05:41.920] Uhhuh.
[02:05:42.480] member of the Melon family. Got to say
[02:05:44.080] that walking out legally
[02:05:46.800] Yeah.
[02:05:47.440] out of the Pentagon.
[02:05:48.800] Yep. and legally distributing
[02:05:52.560] information to the new to the New York
[02:05:54.320] Times where I think this was also where
[02:05:56.080] we got the new term UAP which is also
[02:05:58.159] interesting and saying like all right
[02:06:00.800] front page of the New York Times like
[02:06:03.119] yo some shit's going on out there that
[02:06:04.800] we can't explain and you know you we can
[02:06:06.800] talk about the tic tac stuff and all
[02:06:08.080] that but like now seven years later
[02:06:12.239] it has become much more of a of a
[02:06:14.800] mainstream topic. So you we started this
[02:06:19.440] long tangent about this where you were
[02:06:22.159] talking about the concept of could there
[02:06:24.800] be a scop that also then is on top of
[02:06:27.520] something that's real because it's real.
[02:06:29.679] Yeah.
[02:06:30.159] Right.
[02:06:30.639] Yeah.
[02:06:32.880] What's your thought on the characters
[02:06:35.040] that have come out and we'll get to
[02:06:36.320] Grush, but let's more focus on say
[02:06:39.119] Christopher Melon.
[02:06:40.159] Yeah. Lu Alzando, who was allegedly the
[02:06:42.960] head of the ATIP program in the
[02:06:44.320] Pentagon. Yeah. And guys like that
[02:06:46.400] coming out and mainstreaming this. Do
[02:06:48.560] you think
[02:06:49.599] it's a pure distraction or do you think
[02:06:52.800] it's all truth or do you think it's a
[02:06:54.639] mix of both?
[02:06:56.480] I don't know. I mean, I guess Melon was
[02:07:00.320] what, deputy assistant secretary for of
[02:07:02.560] defense intelligence for both Clinton
[02:07:05.040] and Bush.
[02:07:05.920] Yeah. He's got to be like pretty pretty
[02:07:08.079] deep on the inside and like, you know, I
[02:07:10.159] he he he has to know a lot, you know. Um
[02:07:14.159] and then he obviously comes from the the
[02:07:16.079] you know, Melon family or whatever. I
[02:07:17.760] don't know how much that gives you as
[02:07:18.960] far as access to, you know, uh UFO
[02:07:22.079] knowledge. Probably not much, but um
[02:07:23.920] allegedly.
[02:07:26.320] All right. Um
[02:07:28.800] I don't know what they do at those melon
[02:07:30.320] parties, baby.
[02:07:31.920] You don't know.
[02:07:32.639] I haven't gotten an invite.
[02:07:33.920] Yeah, I want my invite. Let's go.
[02:07:36.400] I met him once briefly, but I um yeah, I
[02:07:39.840] I I don't know, you know, I'm I'm not
[02:07:41.840] sure what they're what they're up to
[02:07:43.520] exactly. Like I'm talking to Lou soon,
[02:07:46.159] so I'm excited to kind of dig in there.
[02:07:48.719] But
[02:07:49.360] And you've talked to him before, right?
[02:07:50.880] Yeah, I have. Yeah, I actually did a
[02:07:52.719] show with him in Wyoming at his spot out
[02:07:55.040] there and then it never saw the light of
[02:07:56.800] day, I guess.
[02:07:57.360] Why?
[02:07:58.560] I think he like wasn't allowed to do
[02:08:00.400] media or something. Uh, I think due to
[02:08:03.840] some like relationships he had. I'm not
[02:08:06.480] exactly sure, but
[02:08:07.920] Okay. So, he couldn't let he
[02:08:09.679] couldn't let it be released. Was kind of
[02:08:11.040] frustrating.
[02:08:11.679] Did he blow your mind at all?
[02:08:14.239] Uh, he had some he he's he's really good
[02:08:16.560] with like analogies like these like, you
[02:08:18.880] know, like he's good at like describing
[02:08:20.800] like the space-time metric engineering
[02:08:22.400] on the paper or whatever. And then like,
[02:08:25.520] you know, like the science religion
[02:08:26.960] thing. I remember him being like there
[02:08:29.119] two sides of the different you know of
[02:08:30.719] like a pyramid and like you're starting
[02:08:32.800] you know religion like at the bottom of
[02:08:34.480] the pyramid you're starting science it's
[02:08:36.639] like a totally different side and then
[02:08:37.840] you converge at some like a mega point
[02:08:39.280] and I was like oh that's a really good
[02:08:40.560] analogy but no he didn't blow my mind I
[02:08:44.000] mean like on some of the implant stuff
[02:08:46.480] actually he blew my mind I mean imminent
[02:08:48.639] does have some interesting revelations
[02:08:50.159] there but as far visa v the grush stuff
[02:08:53.119] where it's like no we have like actual
[02:08:54.960] like reverse engineering programs Like
[02:08:56.800] Alzando to me 2017 is definitely like
[02:09:00.560] pushing the ball forward. Now I wouldn't
[02:09:02.239] say he's as much the tip of the spear. I
[02:09:04.239] think the grush stuff is a little more
[02:09:06.159] right.
[02:09:06.639] You know the frontier.
[02:09:07.920] Before we get to that though, staying on
[02:09:09.440] Lou, it's like
[02:09:10.880] in in the past like Lou has this
[02:09:14.480] religious and anti-religious thing
[02:09:16.239] online. There's people who religiously
[02:09:18.400] believe every single thing he says and
[02:09:20.159] treat him like the second coming of
[02:09:21.520] Jesus Christ from Cuba.
[02:09:22.719] Yeah. And like you know he's also I
[02:09:26.800] think his dad like escaped Cuba. I
[02:09:28.480] didn't make that up.
[02:09:28.960] He did. I think he I think he escaped
[02:09:30.960] Cuba. I think he fought on like Castro's
[02:09:34.639] side I think and then like ended up
[02:09:37.840] escaping and then and then but then I
[02:09:39.760] think somehow he was like he ended up in
[02:09:41.840] Intel. I think he was in the CIA I
[02:09:43.599] think.
[02:09:44.400] He's like a super interesting like crazy
[02:09:46.400] life and I think now he lives in
[02:09:48.719] South America or something or I don't
[02:09:50.320] know but he is super interesting guy.
[02:09:51.920] All
[02:09:53.119] right, we'll put a pin in that one. But
[02:09:54.639] like you have this guy who,
[02:09:57.599] you know, comes out and discloses all
[02:09:59.679] this stuff and
[02:10:01.440] it obviously blows your mind if it's
[02:10:04.239] true and things like that, but online
[02:10:06.400] you have the people who follow every
[02:10:07.920] single thing he says religiously and
[02:10:09.679] then you have the other side who treats
[02:10:11.679] him like the second coming of Satan
[02:10:13.520] himself. Right. Right.
[02:10:14.639] Right. And there's a lot of there's some
[02:10:16.000] weird [ __ ] that that that's like online
[02:10:18.079] that people argue about over that. I'm
[02:10:19.599] less involved with that world.
[02:10:21.760] where I've been critical of him in the
[02:10:23.440] past on several episodes. I know 151
[02:10:27.360] with with Ron James. We were talking
[02:10:29.280] about that a bunch because he
[02:10:30.480] interviewed him for his documentary. We
[02:10:32.320] talked about it with Nick Pope and 179
[02:10:34.239] like 3 hours in. Nick Pope has thoughts
[02:10:36.239] on that because he was in the
[02:10:37.199] government. Yeah.
[02:10:38.000] And stuff and and there have been some
[02:10:39.280] others where I've talked about it. It's
[02:10:40.400] like I joke like Fed because
[02:10:44.639] to lose credit maybe if you look at if
[02:10:48.960] you listen to him in full context in
[02:10:50.719] past interviews he said lines like I'll
[02:10:53.199] say I'm paraphrasing but it's pretty
[02:10:54.560] damn close to what I'm about to say.
[02:10:56.000] Yeah.
[02:10:56.320] He said things like listen
[02:10:58.400] I'm an intel guy.
[02:10:59.679] Yeah.
[02:11:00.239] That's what it is. Yeah.
[02:11:01.520] So here's what I do with that.
[02:11:03.520] I say to myself from a critical lens I'm
[02:11:06.239] like okay I don't know what I don't
[02:11:07.679] know.
[02:11:08.239] Yeah. Maybe it's an intel op and the
[02:11:11.360] logic behind it is actually evil. Yeah,
[02:11:13.440] I don't know. Or maybe it's an intel op
[02:11:15.520] because they figured out some onlogical
[02:11:17.119] shock [ __ ] and like they know [ __ ] I
[02:11:19.199] don't and he has to come out here and do
[02:11:21.280] that and do his job. In which case, all
[02:11:23.360] the respect to you. Do your thing. Just
[02:11:25.599] like I say to Bamonte, nice job working
[02:11:27.679] for the CIA still. Like it is what it
[02:11:29.920] is.
[02:11:30.320] Sure.
[02:11:30.960] Meaning though, I can take what you say
[02:11:32.719] with a grain of salt.
[02:11:33.679] Yeah.
[02:11:33.920] And so when I look at Lou, I've been
[02:11:35.199] critical saying like might be a fed
[02:11:37.040] here. He's kind of hear
[02:11:46.880] it. Doesn't mean it's bad,
[02:11:48.480] but like I'll be really curious to know
[02:11:50.079] sitting across from the guy, you know,
[02:11:51.920] trying to get a feel for him manto man,
[02:11:53.440] human to human if like maybe
[02:11:55.760] and you don't know maybe you could pick
[02:11:57.520] up on that or not. And I'd be curious to
[02:11:59.520] see what your thoughts are. I think a
[02:12:00.800] lot a lot of people were cynical around
[02:12:02.480] him because of this like threat
[02:12:04.320] narrative originally and like you know
[02:12:06.880] being involved with TTSA or whatever.
[02:12:09.599] Um
[02:12:10.079] that's Tom Del Longs to the stars.
[02:12:12.320] Yes, it is. But I think he's changed his
[02:12:14.079] tune. Yeah, exactly. Tom Delongs to the
[02:12:16.159] stars academy and that you know he had a
[02:12:17.679] lot of interesting characters involved
[02:12:18.880] there. But I think I think Lou has uh
[02:12:21.520] fed fed.
[02:12:24.560] Yeah. Yeah. An interesting crew board.
[02:12:27.840] Um, but you know, I think LE's changed
[02:12:32.079] his tune a little since then. You know,
[02:12:33.760] in imminent, like in the forward, he's
[02:12:35.679] like, you know, imminent you usually
[02:12:36.880] associate with threats. Like that's not
[02:12:38.560] why I'm titling it this. So,
[02:12:41.119] I think that's been kind of toned down.
[02:12:43.440] Um,
[02:12:44.880] I don't know, man. I don't know. You
[02:12:46.800] know, I mean, I look, I will say you're
[02:12:50.639] never going to get like Snowden vibes
[02:12:52.960] from him. And I even brought up Snowden
[02:12:54.639] to him once and he was like, "Yeah, like
[02:12:57.280] that. I've never never do that." Like,
[02:12:58.719] "Fuck that guy." You know?
[02:12:59.920] Yeah, they all say that.
[02:13:01.840] Could you not see how someone like
[02:13:03.760] Snowden felt the way he did? Totally
[02:13:06.400] different scenario from UIP to be to be
[02:13:08.400] very fair here, but felt the way he did
[02:13:10.320] from a constitutional perspective to
[02:13:12.079] come out and make that type of
[02:13:13.679] I have no problem with the way Snowden
[02:13:16.000] felt. I have a problem with what Snowden
[02:13:17.679] did. He took his information and gave it
[02:13:19.360] to the Russians. That's the problem.
[02:13:21.280] He gave it to the Russians.
[02:13:22.400] Yes. That's the problem. He didn't come
[02:13:24.159] out and whistleblow. He came out and
[02:13:25.760] spy. He leaked information, classified
[02:13:28.400] information. I've never done that. I've
[02:13:30.159] never purported to do it. I don't
[02:13:31.280] support it.
[02:13:31.760] What do you mean he leaked it to the
[02:13:32.800] Russians?
[02:13:33.840] Brother, that's why he went to Russia
[02:13:35.280] for to
[02:13:36.159] Well, his plane got downed by at the
[02:13:38.000] time, Vice President Joe Biden. He was
[02:13:39.760] flying,
[02:13:40.159] brother. He's living in Russia.
[02:13:41.280] I know, but he was flying from I know,
[02:13:43.280] but he was flying from Hong Kong to
[02:13:44.960] Ecuador and his plane got downed in
[02:13:46.560] Russia.
[02:13:48.159] You know what he had with him, right? He
[02:13:49.360] he he gave up that it wasn't just a
[02:13:51.440] Julian Assange. This is not like like uh
[02:13:54.079] Private Manning did where you know they
[02:13:55.920] were just trying to expose some things
[02:13:57.360] which by the way was still wrong.
[02:13:58.560] There's a right way and wrong way to do
[02:13:59.520] different things situation.
[02:14:00.400] Yeah. He actually compromised people who
[02:14:03.119] died and that is a problem there. There
[02:14:04.960] there are people who are no longer alive
[02:14:06.719] right now because
[02:14:07.520] that's been that's been disputed though.
[02:14:09.040] There's there's people that say that
[02:14:10.639] there's no one who died as a result of
[02:14:12.400] though he may have risked it.
[02:14:13.440] No. No. There there there are there
[02:14:14.960] there are I can't go into details. There
[02:14:16.880] are sources who died. So it's like he's
[02:14:19.920] you know these people are not like for
[02:14:22.239] like catastrophic dis like there I think
[02:14:25.440] um you know the idealistic take is like
[02:14:28.159] he wants to broaden the surface area of
[02:14:29.920] understanding on this stuff. He believes
[02:14:31.599] like, you know, ontological truth
[02:14:33.360] shouldn't be monopolized by the
[02:14:34.880] government. Uh, and he is trying to like
[02:14:38.079] come out with this with this stuff, but
[02:14:40.480] without breaking, you know, any of his
[02:14:42.239] oaths and like, you know, he doesn't
[02:14:43.760] want to end up in jail. And then beyond
[02:14:46.159] that, I you know, I don't know what what
[02:14:49.360] do what do you think?
[02:14:51.199] I'm curious to talk with him.
[02:14:52.560] Yeah.
[02:14:52.960] Cuz like, you know,
[02:14:56.960] I'm not going to know the truth.
[02:14:58.639] Yeah. I'm not a [ __ ] mind reader. I
[02:15:00.800] mean, I'm pretty good at sitting across
[02:15:01.840] from people and getting an idea. I'm
[02:15:03.119] sure I'm going to have my opinion.
[02:15:04.239] Doesn't mean I'm right.
[02:15:05.040] Yeah.
[02:15:05.599] But
[02:15:06.639] I will say in reading I imminent, I'm
[02:15:08.400] working through it right now.
[02:15:09.760] Yeah.
[02:15:11.599] I have a lot of mixed thoughts.
[02:15:13.119] Yeah.
[02:15:13.440] I think I I really think it could come
[02:15:15.599] back to your theory on this stuff as a
[02:15:17.679] whole, which is that it could be a
[02:15:18.719] little bit of both.
[02:15:19.440] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[02:15:20.079] Right. All right. Let's not tell him
[02:15:21.280] about this, but let's get him
[02:15:22.719] comfortable with this.
[02:15:23.760] I mean, he he has a counter intel
[02:15:25.360] background, so
[02:15:26.320] Yes. Exactly. and and like and the
[02:15:28.159] dude's the dude's resume before anything
[02:15:31.280] UAP UFO is pretty nuts. I mean, he
[02:15:34.000] really dude's been around the block in
[02:15:36.239] some dangerous areas doing things. So,
[02:15:39.360] he's an ideal kind of person
[02:15:42.000] to, you know, be a messenger of that
[02:15:44.639] maybe on a counterintel type basis. But
[02:15:47.360] again, it doesn't mean that the concept
[02:15:49.920] of like, yo, we have things
[02:15:53.360] in our airspace that we can't explain
[02:15:55.920] that are not our technology and we
[02:15:58.719] strongly believe are not the technology
[02:16:00.320] of our adversaries or we'd be [ __ ]
[02:16:01.840] right now.
[02:16:02.400] Yeah.
[02:16:02.880] You know, and if you're not perking up
[02:16:05.199] when you hear that, at least Yeah. Not
[02:16:07.440] saying he's telling the truth, but if
[02:16:08.960] you're not perking up at that, I think
[02:16:10.880] that's a mistake. I think you I I I
[02:16:12.800] think it's you know like Darcy Weir was
[02:16:15.199] really convincing me to do this cuz I'm
[02:16:16.480] like Darcy isn't he like kind of a fed.
[02:16:18.480] He's like well you be the judge of it
[02:16:20.079] man like see what he see what he has to
[02:16:22.239] say. It's interesting.
[02:16:23.599] Yeah.
[02:16:23.920] I can't argue with that.
[02:16:25.199] Yeah.
[02:16:26.159] Yeah. No, it's definitely interesting
[02:16:27.520] and I think he brings forward like
[02:16:29.520] specific interesting facts that are
[02:16:31.360] worthy of you know real investigation. I
[02:16:34.240] do think at this point Grush bringing
[02:16:37.200] forward 40 you know accused legacy
[02:16:40.479] people like from the you know the
[02:16:41.840] program who uh you know gone forth to
[02:16:45.200] the you know IC inspector general Thomas
[02:16:47.200] Mannheim and said like you know we we've
[02:16:49.040] worked on this stuff a lot a lot of
[02:16:50.559] cases firsthand. I think that feels like
[02:16:54.240] a far more productive inroad at this
[02:16:56.240] point, you know, than like talking about
[02:16:58.160] like random implants or whatever. Um, or
[02:17:01.040] like, you know, some sighting, you know,
[02:17:02.800] like if if if we've have like a a
[02:17:04.639] historical crash retrieval program where
[02:17:06.559] we're trying to reverse engineer this
[02:17:07.920] stuff that to me feels like of vital,
[02:17:10.800] you know, importance, like the, you
[02:17:12.319] know, the the the real tip of the spear.
[02:17:14.160] But I don't know as far as like the food
[02:17:16.800] fight, you know, around, you know, it's
[02:17:19.120] like there's some people who are like he
[02:17:20.559] was an aip on these years and this all,
[02:17:23.040] you know, and
[02:17:24.880] James Latsky says this and he says this
[02:17:27.599] and what it's like I read all of that
[02:17:31.760] and I have a mental map of that. I don't
[02:17:35.599] like to weigh in on it because I don't
[02:17:37.519] want to get involved in the food fight.
[02:17:39.439] I just don't. So like
[02:17:41.120] you like the Duski meme? Not me. Not me.
[02:17:44.559] No, I I just want to I want to, you
[02:17:46.559] know, I want to study this stuff. I'm
[02:17:49.439] uh you know, pro uh American national
[02:17:54.160] security, but I want to like look into
[02:17:57.840] this stuff and I'm I like I want to look
[02:17:59.519] into it like aggressively in a way that
[02:18:01.040] like I you know, I can understand, you
[02:18:03.519] know, the truth. And so, uh, I hope that
[02:18:06.240] never comes at odds with the, you know,
[02:18:08.719] not sex thing or whatever, but like,
[02:18:11.280] yeah, I'm not trying to like hurl ad
[02:18:13.920] homonyms at anybody. I just, I just want
[02:18:15.920] to like be in my own lane and like
[02:18:17.760] search for truth.
[02:18:18.719] Stay that way, dude. And and if anybody,
[02:18:20.399] by the way, were to hit me up and be
[02:18:23.040] like, "Hey, like don't cover this
[02:18:25.439] because you're like accidentally through
[02:18:28.639] your own open source investigation, not
[02:18:30.399] out of malice, but like leaking like
[02:18:32.880] important [ __ ] that's like vital to
[02:18:35.040] American national security, I would
[02:18:36.559] stop. I would
[02:18:37.519] You would.
[02:18:38.240] [ __ ] yeah. I'm not trying to like
[02:18:39.519] gratuitous Yeah. I care about this
[02:18:41.280] country. I think like as [ __ ] up as it
[02:18:44.240] is and like as you know all the issues
[02:18:47.760] that we were talking about as far as
[02:18:49.359] macroeconomic headwinds and whatever I
[02:18:52.800] want this thing to this weird experiment
[02:18:54.880] to continue I think it's a beautiful
[02:18:56.399] place to live and if somebody was like
[02:18:58.960] yeah like some of that stuff you talked
[02:19:01.519] about it's extremely lowcost
[02:19:04.800] you know
[02:19:06.800] thermonuclear 2.0 no thing like don't
[02:19:10.719] talk about I'd be like yeah I'm not I'm
[02:19:12.080] not going to talk about it. Um but like
[02:19:14.559] what's interesting is like I actually
[02:19:16.000] feel like I' I've become very close to
[02:19:18.319] truths in certain areas
[02:19:20.160] and like it's just sort of
[02:19:21.519] where
[02:19:23.200] uh have you seen my Towns and Brown
[02:19:24.880] episode?
[02:19:25.679] No.
[02:19:26.719] Wait, is that the guy who rever the
[02:19:28.080] 26-year-old engineer?
[02:19:29.439] No, no, no. This guy is a mid-century
[02:19:32.319] inventor. He's born in 1905, died in
[02:19:34.880] 1985,
[02:19:36.399] and he worked with like most of the kind
[02:19:39.040] of big big aerospace companies. And then
[02:19:41.840] you have like all of these really
[02:19:44.559] interesting, credible witnesses around
[02:19:46.479] gravity experiments that he did with
[02:19:48.479] these asymmetric capacitors. So you have
[02:19:51.520] a negative charge plate, positive charge
[02:19:53.520] plate, neutral insulator in the middle.
[02:19:55.359] you pump the whole thing with kind of
[02:19:56.720] like megga volt range electricity
[02:19:59.359] and you get this weird you know this
[02:20:01.760] acceleration from uh the negative plate
[02:20:04.479] to the positive plate even when the
[02:20:06.560] positive plate is faced upwards. So it's
[02:20:08.640] basically like ability to manipulate
[02:20:10.479] gravity through pure electromagnetism as
[02:20:13.439] the input and you know that would be
[02:20:16.080] this insane novel thing and he claimed
[02:20:17.600] to replicate it in a vacuum chamber
[02:20:19.439] which is like that the main dra
[02:20:21.120] detraction on this experiment is that
[02:20:22.800] ion wind is causing the thrust. So if
[02:20:25.040] you're in a vacuum chamber, you can't
[02:20:26.560] you don't have ion wind. There are other
[02:20:28.960] variations of the experiment that
[02:20:30.240] involve negating the ion wind component.
[02:20:33.120] And like the amount I mean Edward Teller
[02:20:34.960] was a credible witness. His I've met
[02:20:37.200] Townsen Brown's daughter who talks about
[02:20:39.040] Edward Teller being in the room freaking
[02:20:41.359] out
[02:20:42.080] around Yeah. saying I don't know how
[02:20:43.600] this works around town's fan
[02:20:45.760] precipitator experiment. Um you have uh
[02:20:49.760] uh this technical consultant at Wright
[02:20:52.560] Patterson or right right airfield at the
[02:20:54.479] time named Victor Betrandius freaking
[02:20:56.080] out. You have Agy Bonson who forms the
[02:20:58.960] Institute of Field Physics and and is
[02:21:00.720] funding Brown but also doing the funding
[02:21:03.920] the most frontier theoretical physics at
[02:21:05.680] the time and establishing quantum
[02:21:06.960] gravity. He says strange things happen
[02:21:09.120] at high megavolts
[02:21:11.120] high mega voltage across short
[02:21:12.479] distances. He's clearly talking about
[02:21:13.840] Brown's experiments. And then the
[02:21:16.080] interesting way in which this ties into
[02:21:17.359] the UFO story is like that magnesium
[02:21:19.439] bismouth um you know that you know we
[02:21:22.640] talked about in the Gary Nolan. So
[02:21:25.600] magnesium bismouth is this thing that
[02:21:27.200] Brown talks constantly about because
[02:21:29.280] it's a high K dialectric meaning it
[02:21:31.359] stores a lot of electromagnetic charge.
[02:21:33.920] The high the higher the K factor on the
[02:21:36.319] material and the insulator in between
[02:21:37.920] the two capacitors the greater the
[02:21:39.920] thrust you get. And so berium titanate,
[02:21:43.040] magnesium bismouth, a lot of these
[02:21:44.880] materials um that come up, you know, in
[02:21:48.319] this interesting way around the UFO
[02:21:49.760] conversation are part of Brown's
[02:21:52.720] experiments and are in his like Winter
[02:21:54.399] Haven proposal. And so that could make
[02:21:56.319] you a cynic and you could be like, "Oh,
[02:21:57.920] that's like, you know, maybe it's all
[02:22:00.000] like cover for some gravity thing or
[02:22:01.680] whatever."
[02:22:02.319] But Brown himself was very trippy and he
[02:22:04.399] would talk about being in touch with
[02:22:05.680] Space Brothers and like
[02:22:07.200] Space Brothers.
[02:22:07.840] Yes. And like uh he and his daughter had
[02:22:10.479] a UFO experience. And he attributes a
[02:22:13.680] lot of his initial work and knowledge to
[02:22:16.479] a UFO experience he had on Catalina
[02:22:18.479] Island, which is a UFO hot spot.
[02:22:20.240] The [ __ ] Catalina Wine Mixer.
[02:22:22.479] Yeah, that it all started there.
[02:22:25.040] It is. It is a UFO. I just can never
[02:22:27.359] wrap my head around the fact that the
[02:22:28.560] Catalina Wineer place is where there's a
[02:22:30.479] lot of UFO [ __ ] But you're 100% right.
[02:22:32.399] Yeah. Yeah. Somehow those two things go
[02:22:34.399] hand in hand. Yeah. So, you know, and
[02:22:36.160] there's a there's a good book called um
[02:22:38.319] under undersea UFO base by Preston
[02:22:40.720] Dennit, which documents all the, you
[02:22:42.399] know, the crazy amount of UFO sightings
[02:22:44.399] in Catalina. So, anyways,
[02:22:47.359] that would be an area where like that
[02:22:49.200] really wasn't super popular, the Brown
[02:22:51.120] stuff pre me cover. I mean, this great
[02:22:54.080] biographist guy named Paul Shatskin
[02:22:56.319] wrote a book on it um called The Man Who
[02:22:58.560] Mastered Gravity. Uh and that, you know,
[02:23:01.439] my piece was in some ways an homage to
[02:23:03.359] that to that book. And I think there are
[02:23:05.359] all sorts of loose threads in areas
[02:23:07.359] where I've gone deeper on the book and
[02:23:09.920] like I think there are weak areas of
[02:23:11.840] where we need more corroboration. I
[02:23:13.600] think he gets certain things wrong in
[02:23:16.319] spots. But if Towns and Brown in the
[02:23:19.359] world in which UFOs are real, if you're
[02:23:20.960] telling me Towns and Brown wasn't part
[02:23:22.240] of the, you know, kind of legacy stuff,
[02:23:24.640] then I just don't believe the then I
[02:23:26.160] think UFOs aren't real or something.
[02:23:27.680] It's like he he has to be more involved
[02:23:29.200] than anybody in my opinion. But you're
[02:23:30.880] also saying in some of the research
[02:23:32.319] related to that to bring it back to the
[02:23:33.840] beginning, you could be getting at some
[02:23:35.359] things that get a little interesting.
[02:23:36.960] Well, yeah, because it's like if you
[02:23:39.200] know and how in my interview with Hal
[02:23:41.120] Putoff and Weinstein,
[02:23:43.280] you know, how put offs like uh if we
[02:23:46.880] figured anything out in the in the you
[02:23:48.880] know, may maybe we did figure out some
[02:23:50.160] of the stuff in the world of gravity,
[02:23:51.600] but uh you know, it went black or we
[02:23:54.240] didn't figure anything out. And he kind
[02:23:55.520] of like proposes these like funny you
[02:23:57.200] know, sort of thing. And if we did
[02:23:59.760] figure anything out, I think Brown was
[02:24:01.760] at the center of it. Um, there might
[02:24:03.920] have been alternative, you know, some
[02:24:06.240] other some other interesting things
[02:24:07.600] being researched like microwave beam
[02:24:09.280] propulsion. There might be a couple of
[02:24:11.439] other, you know, kind of kind of ways to
[02:24:13.439] investigate this. But I think Brown was
[02:24:15.120] pretty, you know, uh, uh, deep on this
[02:24:18.160] stuff.
[02:24:19.280] But if you got if you got hit up that
[02:24:22.160] some of these threads were getting close
[02:24:23.840] to national security, you're saying
[02:24:25.760] you'd back off?
[02:24:26.960] Yeah. I mean if and if I got you know
[02:24:29.680] good rationale for it's like hey man
[02:24:31.359] like you don't want like you know
[02:24:34.560] yeah that but but you know the the
[02:24:37.120] reason to not back off until that is
[02:24:41.040] that like this has really important
[02:24:43.200] civil like our our infrastructure is in
[02:24:45.120] decay. Our cities are like horrible.
[02:24:48.000] they suck and uh and and and going
[02:24:50.800] downhill despite trillion dollar
[02:24:52.479] infrastructure bills being passed and
[02:24:54.160] we're not an interstellar you know uh uh
[02:24:56.960] uh species and you know it would be
[02:24:59.280] awesome if we we could and and and
[02:25:01.040] actually transcend the limits of of
[02:25:02.960] SpaceX which SpaceX is an amazing
[02:25:04.640] company but it's really an earthbased
[02:25:06.960] space company it's space for it's space
[02:25:09.760] travel for you know it's a Starlink and
[02:25:12.160] you know maybe moon or Mars if we're
[02:25:13.920] lucky you know that like after we get
[02:25:16.160] Starship to work but we're not really
[02:25:18.160] going beyond that. And so like uh I
[02:25:21.520] think this stuff is extremely important
[02:25:23.120] to to explore and so yeah until like I
[02:25:26.960] hear anything on that then I think I
[02:25:29.359] think the logical thing is like move
[02:25:30.960] forward
[02:25:31.600] and and I and I respect that a lot. I
[02:25:33.600] also respect the idea that like, you
[02:25:35.439] know, as a patriotic American, if you
[02:25:37.760] felt like something was getting on the
[02:25:39.359] edge of where [ __ ] could get dangerous
[02:25:40.800] or there's blowback, you know, you stop.
[02:25:43.439] The here here's the catch 22 there,
[02:25:46.160] though. That's difficult. And my friend
[02:25:48.800] Joby Warick, who I've had on a couple
[02:25:50.399] times, episode 134 and episode 198, you
[02:25:53.680] know, he's two-time Pulitzer winner,
[02:25:55.680] longtime national security reporter at
[02:25:58.160] the Washington Post, just incredible,
[02:26:00.640] incredible journalist. wrote um wrote
[02:26:03.280] the book Black Flags in 2015 or 2016
[02:26:07.439] which is about like the rise of ISIS and
[02:26:09.600] is the greatest book ever written on
[02:26:11.120] that which won the Pulitzer. But like I
[02:26:14.000] remember when he was in here for 134
[02:26:16.240] when I was still in my parents house,
[02:26:17.680] there was a conversation maybe like 50
[02:26:19.760] minutes into there where we were talking
[02:26:22.080] about all the scenarios where what
[02:26:24.720] you're talking about happens exactly in
[02:26:26.960] the Washington Post room in the national
[02:26:28.880] security room and it is where their
[02:26:31.280] sources or representatives of the
[02:26:33.840] government come to them when they're
[02:26:35.439] working on a story they know about and
[02:26:36.880] they go, "Yo guys,
[02:26:38.720] if you report this, people are going to
[02:26:40.240] die." The the other problem that you
[02:26:43.200] might encounter at the end of this, this
[02:26:45.280] is something we actually get into all
[02:26:46.800] the time, is even after you've proved
[02:26:49.120] your case six ways to to Sunday and then
[02:26:51.439] and and no one can really deny it, you
[02:26:54.240] still have this this sort of final
[02:26:56.640] interview with with the CIA in which
[02:26:58.319] you're presenting what you're going to
[02:26:59.680] say because they have every response as
[02:27:01.760] as we see it. they have a, you know,
[02:27:04.000] they should be able to respond and put
[02:27:05.439] in and say what they want to say. And
[02:27:07.520] often they will make an appeal to you as
[02:27:09.920] an American saying that
[02:27:11.920] if you write this story, you're going to
[02:27:13.840] get somebody in trouble. You're going to
[02:27:15.520] get somebody killed. And then we it's
[02:27:18.399] gives us pause and we stop and we think,
[02:27:20.240] well, is that really true or are they
[02:27:21.680] just kind of feeding us this line
[02:27:22.960] because they they're going to be
[02:27:24.240] embarrassed? And often we'll we'll
[02:27:26.479] negotiate. will say, "Okay, well, if
[02:27:28.479] there is a security issue, if there is a
[02:27:30.560] a person at risk, we're willing to
[02:27:32.479] withhold certain facts.
[02:27:34.160] We're willing to and and that's a
[02:27:36.000] difficult decision for for a journalist
[02:27:37.600] to make, but we see that as as being
[02:27:39.600] responsible that you don't just say
[02:27:41.840] something or write something because you
[02:27:43.359] know it.
[02:27:44.160] There's also you you do worry about
[02:27:46.000] human lives. And if you're going to
[02:27:47.359] compromise a security operation, we're
[02:27:50.080] not comfortable doing that." And so
[02:27:52.319] we'll we'll, you know, modify the report
[02:27:54.479] in in a way just just to to leave out
[02:27:56.319] certain details that might get somebody
[02:27:57.840] in trouble. And and and the one example
[02:28:00.880] that's happened was the uh sort of the
[02:28:02.399] blackside prisons that we talked about.
[02:28:04.000] There was a secret CIA program where
[02:28:06.240] they set up prisons around the world for
[02:28:08.240] interrogating members of of al-Qaeda
[02:28:10.560] that they caught. And it was a top
[02:28:12.319] secret thing. Nobody knew that these
[02:28:13.920] prisons existed. It was outside to the
[02:28:16.479] judicial system. There's no
[02:28:17.920] accountability, no oversight.
[02:28:19.600] What years are we talking about? 2005
[02:28:21.439] and six is when the stories broke.
[02:28:23.359] Got it.
[02:28:23.840] And um so the the initial stories that
[02:28:26.240] that that we wrote,
[02:28:28.399] we knew where the prisons were,
[02:28:30.160] but we agreed and a negotiating process
[02:28:32.800] with the agency that we wouldn't say
[02:28:34.399] specifically where they were because
[02:28:35.920] there would be possibility of attacks on
[02:28:38.880] the on those facilities. You know, the
[02:28:41.600] there was real danger for people if we
[02:28:43.680] if we pointed to specific facilities. So
[02:28:45.760] we we left that out and it was still a
[02:28:47.680] powerful story. We still revealed
[02:28:49.359] something we felt was very important for
[02:28:50.800] people to know about,
[02:28:52.000] but we tried to do it in a responsible
[02:28:53.359] way. And that's just sort of the
[02:28:54.399] balancing act that we have to deal with
[02:28:56.080] do sometimes.
[02:28:57.439] And he talks about the impossible
[02:28:59.439] meeting that occurs there afterwards
[02:29:01.120] where they have to ask themselves. Do we
[02:29:04.000] believe them or do we think they're
[02:29:06.640] trying to cover for something and people
[02:29:08.319] aren't really going to die and they're
[02:29:09.520] trying to hold the dangle of human life
[02:29:11.120] over us so that we don't report this?
[02:29:12.800] Yeah. So, if you start getting at some
[02:29:14.720] things that get really interesting, you
[02:29:16.960] know, I'm with you. And it's an
[02:29:19.200] impossible question to answer in your
[02:29:20.800] head that like there may be points where
[02:29:22.560] you stop, but you might have to ask the
[02:29:25.439] question sometimes where it's like,
[02:29:27.280] who's telling me this and why and maybe
[02:29:29.760] this is sketch.
[02:29:30.560] Sure. Well, if they're doing it to
[02:29:32.960] protect oligopolistic interests or
[02:29:35.520] whatever, then I would just say the
[02:29:37.520] context in which you're operating as an
[02:29:39.520] igopoly on, you know, whatever science
[02:29:41.920] or tech or whatever is going to go away
[02:29:44.399] because the US is going to lose its kind
[02:29:46.479] of primacy in these areas. And so,
[02:29:49.439] again, in the world in which you have,
[02:29:52.640] you know, some sort of arms race around
[02:29:54.240] this stuff, which is sort of it's really
[02:29:55.760] dystopian even to like talk about and
[02:29:57.359] like frame it like that, but it's the
[02:29:58.479] it's the world we live in. And if Carl
[02:30:00.560] Nell again is is right that there is
[02:30:02.240] this sort of reverse engineering arms
[02:30:03.840] race,
[02:30:05.520] then you have the US version which
[02:30:08.319] according to everybody in UFO world has
[02:30:11.280] this corporatized balkcanized thftdom
[02:30:14.720] based left hand's not talking to the
[02:30:16.479] right hand if you believe this Wilson
[02:30:18.800] memo thing that came out you know where
[02:30:20.560] this guy head of the you know J2 joint
[02:30:22.640] chiefs Thomas Wilson who's you know in
[02:30:25.280] charge of all military technology is
[02:30:27.040] meeting with Eric Davis and you know
[02:30:29.520] saying that he's meeting with this
[02:30:30.640] company and progress is very slow and
[02:30:32.319] cumbersome and they exist outside of you
[02:30:34.640] know all normal you know security
[02:30:36.560] clearances and you know they don't they
[02:30:39.200] kind of understand some aspects of how
[02:30:40.880] these crafts fly but they don't
[02:30:42.240] understand all of it or whatever. If you
[02:30:44.319] believe that and if you believe, you
[02:30:46.479] know, Loy, Northrup, like all these
[02:30:49.200] sorts of companies like have like bits
[02:30:50.960] and pieces and they're not coordinating
[02:30:52.560] with each other,
[02:30:54.319] then you have to think that like the
[02:30:56.560] Russia China version, it's just like
[02:30:59.120] fully nationalized and they just have
[02:31:00.560] like their best and brightest scientists
[02:31:01.920] on this stuff.
[02:31:02.800] Good point.
[02:31:03.200] And if that's the case,
[02:31:05.439] it's like maybe we're it's like we're
[02:31:07.280] caveman and we have USB drives and the
[02:31:09.760] caveman has no idea what to do with the
[02:31:11.359] USB drive. You don't know information
[02:31:12.640] there. you don't have a computer to plug
[02:31:13.840] it into. But maybe it's like Galileo
[02:31:18.240] with an iPhone, which like that Galileo
[02:31:21.520] is pretty smart. And maybe Galileo can
[02:31:24.160] open up the iPhone. The iPhone has a
[02:31:26.000] graphical interface. You can kind of
[02:31:27.200] touch it and like learn, you know, this
[02:31:28.640] action causes this reaction. And all of
[02:31:31.760] a sudden, you know, convergence as far
[02:31:33.600] as like ability to like use the thing
[02:31:35.040] gets much quicker. And like these I have
[02:31:37.439] to like make these conjectures because I
[02:31:39.120] have no idea and nobody know has any
[02:31:41.200] idea. But like our to my knowledge,
[02:31:44.720] unless I'm living in some like Truman
[02:31:46.479] show, the smartest people I know like
[02:31:48.880] work at like I don't know like Anderil
[02:31:52.080] and Palunteer and SpaceX and like you
[02:31:54.880] know these like new tech companies. They
[02:31:56.720] don't they're not working at these older
[02:31:58.479] stodgier you know like American primes.
[02:32:01.439] They're just not you don't go to work at
[02:32:03.200] Boeing if you're like some super
[02:32:04.800] allegedly.
[02:32:05.520] What's that?
[02:32:06.240] Allegedly.
[02:32:06.880] Allegedly. I don't I don't I don't know
[02:32:09.200] how I don't know how it works if it's
[02:32:11.040] being done like that covertly, you know?
[02:32:13.600] It's like the secrecy must be like so
[02:32:16.399] good, you know? And so like assu
[02:32:19.359] assuming like that mental model is
[02:32:21.280] correct, then like it's it's in a lot of
[02:32:24.080] these people's best interests to
[02:32:25.920] actually start to like share this stuff
[02:32:28.240] and like
[02:32:29.200] get get in front of the topic. And I
[02:32:31.200] think that's been happening and I think
[02:32:33.200] it that explains actually a lot of the
[02:32:35.120] last, you know, seven years of of
[02:32:38.399] disclosure. Um, but I think it's not
[02:32:41.120] maybe happening fast enough or, you
[02:32:42.800] know, these companies aren't
[02:32:43.680] coordinating well enough.
[02:32:45.600] And uh, yeah. So yeah, I think you just
[02:32:48.880] have to ask yourself that question. Is,
[02:32:50.319] you know, is this is this are you being
[02:32:52.160] hushed because of like, you know, pure
[02:32:54.160] profit or whatever. But I'm skeptical of
[02:32:56.960] the idea that these things like are
[02:32:59.280] profit centers now. You know, I think I
[02:33:01.439] think in for in the world in which again
[02:33:04.399] these companies have like craft, I don't
[02:33:06.080] think we like understand fully how they
[02:33:08.800] fly. I think I think there are like real
[02:33:10.399] challenges to like
[02:33:12.720] working them fully. That would be my
[02:33:14.080] guess.
[02:33:14.319] It also doesn't just have to be profit
[02:33:16.080] though. There can be other variables
[02:33:17.359] that we could go on long tangents about
[02:33:19.040] that perhaps for stupid reasons they're
[02:33:22.000] just like, "Oh, the public can't know
[02:33:23.200] about that." And like again it comes
[02:33:24.880] down to a judgment call and I don't envy
[02:33:26.640] that position as far as I know I've
[02:33:29.520] never been in that position for I don't
[02:33:31.040] think I have.
[02:33:31.600] No they were told by the CIA to like do
[02:33:33.840] the bidding you know to like like you
[02:33:35.840] guys are like the our plausible
[02:33:37.520] deniability as the US government for
[02:33:39.840] being involved in this stuff. I think a
[02:33:42.080] lot of them are patriotic people, you
[02:33:44.160] know, and then, you know, I I do think
[02:33:46.319] probably, you know, white collar crimes
[02:33:48.240] have like occurred, but like the like
[02:33:50.319] the just like the the core like crash
[02:33:52.399] retrieval stuff. I I don't know how you
[02:33:54.880] do it differently in retrospect. I I I
[02:33:57.120] don't know, you know, and again, this is
[02:33:58.720] all based on these kind of
[02:33:59.600] hypotheticals, but like I I could see,
[02:34:03.439] you know, a lot of the just basic core
[02:34:06.720] legacy program and like hiding that
[02:34:09.680] being somewhat forgivable. Um, and then
[02:34:12.399] I think a lot of, you know, the [ __ ]
[02:34:14.960] like around, you know, SCOPs and stuff
[02:34:17.120] and driving certain people crazy and,
[02:34:19.120] you know, that marginalizing people
[02:34:20.800] based on their experience, like all
[02:34:22.080] that's horrible.
[02:34:22.800] Yeah. It's terrible.
[02:34:23.600] Yeah. And that should be, you know,
[02:34:25.040] addressed in like a real in a real way.
[02:34:27.200] But
[02:34:27.520] and that's also something your boy Grush
[02:34:30.880] bravely, I think, brought up and and
[02:34:33.520] that's that's a really,
[02:34:35.600] you know, that stuff bothers me that
[02:34:37.280] this people's family should not be
[02:34:38.880] brought into into these things and [ __ ]
[02:34:40.640] like that. But
[02:34:41.760] we've been putting it off all day. Let's
[02:34:43.520] let's go there on Grush. Yeah.
[02:34:45.359] I just got to take a piss first.
[02:34:46.880] Okay, cool. Let's stop for one second
[02:34:49.680] and we'll be right back.
[02:34:52.240] All right, we're back. David Grush.
[02:34:54.880] Yeah.
[02:34:55.359] So, you knew him before he went public
[02:34:59.040] and everything. How, you know, what in
[02:35:01.280] the name of CIA are are you doing around
[02:35:03.520] him?
[02:35:05.280] I actually was in a a venture capital
[02:35:07.840] context like I was looking at a company
[02:35:10.880] um that was like in in space. Uh it
[02:35:14.000] actually had come out of Space Force
[02:35:15.600] like the guy who started it was an
[02:35:17.040] officer in in the Space Force and he
[02:35:19.680] started a company in in this area and I
[02:35:22.399] was diligencing it and I was talking to
[02:35:24.479] him about you know his company but all
[02:35:26.960] you know at the end of my diligence I
[02:35:28.319] was like hey man like I'm also really
[02:35:30.560] into this other stuff. I'm really into
[02:35:32.160] the UFO thing. I know you're like you
[02:35:34.479] know uh you've been around the block
[02:35:35.760] when it comes to to space. Uh, and he
[02:35:39.359] was like, "Yeah, like I'm look, I'm a
[02:35:41.280] believer, but uh, I don't know that
[02:35:45.200] much. Like I, you know, there are limits
[02:35:46.560] to my knowledge." And like he could tell
[02:35:48.000] I was deep on it. And he was like, "I
[02:35:49.439] have somebody you should probably meet."
[02:35:51.040] And so that's when he introduced me to
[02:35:52.800] Grush.
[02:35:53.520] What year is this?
[02:35:54.720] This was, I guess, two years before I
[02:35:57.040] put out the thing in July of 23. So 21
[02:36:00.399] is when I met him.
[02:36:02.319] Where'd you meet him?
[02:36:04.000] I met him initially at my house. the my
[02:36:08.319] buddy who's in the space force brought
[02:36:10.080] him over to my to my spot and uh it was
[02:36:13.600] really like a a trip for me because
[02:36:17.040] I was like I don't know man you're so
[02:36:19.040] used to meeting like these like really
[02:36:20.560] like snake oily people
[02:36:22.800] and like you're I don't know you're
[02:36:25.439] you're bringing up all sorts of things
[02:36:27.040] but like I don't know a lot a lot of the
[02:36:28.960] people in the UFO world are just like
[02:36:30.640] they're just full of [ __ ] and they and
[02:36:32.160] they just speak in these sort of like
[02:36:33.439] super hokey ways and
[02:36:35.520] um he really like broke that pattern. I
[02:36:37.439] was like, "Whoa,
[02:36:38.319] what about what about him broke that?"
[02:36:39.840] It's like he's like clearly like mildly
[02:36:41.200] autistic. Like not, you know, all the
[02:36:43.680] way, but like he's a little autistic,
[02:36:45.520] like very high attention to detail,
[02:36:48.160] extreme like truth seeeking and
[02:36:52.160] uh very sincere too. And so I think, you
[02:36:56.560] know, all those things combined, he's
[02:36:59.040] just like he just broke the pattern, you
[02:37:00.960] know.
[02:37:01.600] Did he tell you everything that he later
[02:37:03.920] has told us publicly at that meeting?
[02:37:07.120] Did he tell me everything that later?
[02:37:09.920] Yeah.
[02:37:11.200] Like did you know the details?
[02:37:12.640] Oh, was he like there has been a crash
[02:37:14.319] retrieval program?
[02:37:16.160] He was really high level in that first
[02:37:17.840] meeting. I think he was kind of sussing
[02:37:19.040] me out. But he was like there's it
[02:37:21.840] hinted like hey, you know, I think you
[02:37:23.840] might be on to something. There might be
[02:37:25.280] more here than, you know, meets the eye.
[02:37:27.120] But, you know, he wasn't he was still in
[02:37:28.800] the government at the time, so he was
[02:37:30.000] very cy around what he could share. But
[02:37:32.960] it was clear like I, you know, when you
[02:37:34.479] speak to somebody, you see like the
[02:37:35.760] resonance in their eye. Like I'm decent
[02:37:37.680] at like picking cues up like that. And
[02:37:40.160] like I came out still pretty like pumped
[02:37:42.880] because I was like that guy like got a
[02:37:45.600] lot of the fringy [ __ ] I was saying. So
[02:37:48.479] I was like there's some like recognition
[02:37:50.960] in his eyes that like I could just
[02:37:52.640] detect.
[02:37:53.680] He's also definitely clearly a very
[02:37:56.880] highly intelligent guy.
[02:37:58.479] Yeah. Yeah. He's become like a really
[02:38:01.040] good buddy and like he's he's uh next
[02:38:03.359] level intelligent. He's just really
[02:38:04.880] really smart.
[02:38:05.600] Did he hint at all in whether it was
[02:38:07.520] that meeting or your earliest meetings,
[02:38:09.359] whatever they were, did he talk about
[02:38:11.920] the idea that like, hey, I'm going to go
[02:38:14.080] public with this at some point?
[02:38:17.280] Not then, but I got to know him uh a bit
[02:38:22.080] actually decently well before he came
[02:38:24.080] out. And he was he seemed extremely
[02:38:28.000] frustrated at like uh trying to like
[02:38:30.880] kind of reform things from within. And
[02:38:33.040] it was clear at one point that like you
[02:38:34.960] know it's like he was experiencing a
[02:38:38.319] bunch of reprisals basically like you
[02:38:40.080] know uh blowback around his
[02:38:42.160] investigations
[02:38:43.439] and he was like I got to I got to get
[02:38:45.200] out you know I got I got to go public
[02:38:46.800] basically like for his own immunity and
[02:38:48.560] like uh so he could actually like affect
[02:38:50.720] any sort of change on this. What what do
[02:38:52.640] you mean like he was trying to reform
[02:38:54.160] things from within?
[02:38:55.359] I don't know the actual specifics, but
[02:38:58.479] my sense was that the initial strategy
[02:39:01.920] was like discover this stuff, bring it
[02:39:04.240] to the right people in charge and then
[02:39:07.280] try to like engage in the the proper
[02:39:09.200] reforms around it. Like you know,
[02:39:10.479] reorganize the the the legacy stuff,
[02:39:13.040] create academic programs around this. So
[02:39:15.040] like it's like, you know, um the nuclear
[02:39:17.359] stuff, it's like uh nuclear physics
[02:39:19.520] should not be classified, right? like
[02:39:21.600] nuclear trade secrets should be
[02:39:22.960] classified like these obvious things and
[02:39:26.080] I think he was sort of trying to like
[02:39:27.600] affect this change from the inside like
[02:39:30.160] hey we're not we are not in front of
[02:39:32.000] this issue at all like we need to be
[02:39:33.439] like more forward-minded on this and I
[02:39:36.240] think he just wasn't getting any there I
[02:39:37.680] think he was sort of spinning his wheels
[02:39:39.280] I think you know superiors and and
[02:39:41.760] colleagues were doing all sorts of you
[02:39:43.439] know dirty things and um yeah I think he
[02:39:47.840] he basically was like I got I got to
[02:39:49.280] blow the lid on this
[02:39:50.240] did he discuss with you and I'm going to
[02:39:52.160] come back to some of the specific things
[02:39:53.920] he said for people out there who haven't
[02:39:55.439] heard it, but did he discuss with you
[02:39:59.120] some of the threats or
[02:40:02.640] the fearfulness surrounding both him and
[02:40:05.280] his family that may like the blowback
[02:40:08.240] that that was keeping him up at night at
[02:40:10.720] that time?
[02:40:12.160] Yeah, he he touched on it. Yeah, he was
[02:40:15.520] he touched on uh you know, I think
[02:40:17.600] certain shots across the bow that uh he
[02:40:19.840] he and his family got that were pretty
[02:40:22.000] unnerving. It's unnerving obviously for
[02:40:24.080] him, extremely unnerving and then
[02:40:26.560] unnerving for me to hear as well cuz I'm
[02:40:28.720] like, man, we're in communication and
[02:40:31.359] like I'm kind of looking into this stuff
[02:40:32.960] too and you know, so yeah, it was uh I
[02:40:36.000] think it was a very precarious time pre
[02:40:37.840] him coming out because you know, you
[02:40:40.800] don't have immunity. nobody knows who
[02:40:42.240] you are, you know, and so if they're
[02:40:45.520] going to engage in retaliation, it was
[02:40:47.040] like pre July of 23, not after. I think
[02:40:50.800] now it would be much harder for them to
[02:40:52.880] do that. Why Why do you think he minus
[02:40:56.160] the the clear understanding of the
[02:40:58.399] knowledge of the subject that you had
[02:41:00.000] and you know, you're a friendly guy,
[02:41:01.520] too. Why Why do you think he trusted you
[02:41:04.080] and gave you all this? And and the
[02:41:06.160] reason I asked that is because at the
[02:41:08.160] time, you're not a public figure. you
[02:41:10.240] don't have the YouTube channel and like
[02:41:12.560] if you wanted to toss on a a paranoia
[02:41:15.520] brain from his end because obviously
[02:41:17.040] things were happening in in his world,
[02:41:19.760] you're investing Peter Teal's money, the
[02:41:21.760] guy who owns Palunteer, you know, like
[02:41:24.399] you you could make you could make some
[02:41:26.319] some conclusions there like why the [ __ ]
[02:41:28.319] am I being walked into this guy's house?
[02:41:29.920] Why why do you think he he was like you
[02:41:31.920] know what I [ __ ] with you, Jesse?
[02:41:33.680] I think it was two things. I think it
[02:41:35.280] was one like just genuine social
[02:41:38.160] rapport. I think or maybe three things.
[02:41:41.200] Two, like a respect for how far I had
[02:41:44.080] gone in like open source techniques like
[02:41:46.800] just like discovering a lot of this
[02:41:48.160] stuff on my own where I think yeah, you
[02:41:52.399] know, you should give credit where it's
[02:41:54.240] due where Yeah. There there guys who are
[02:41:56.800] like, you know, extremely deep like you
[02:41:59.040] know, Richard Dolan for example.
[02:42:00.880] Yes. Um, I'm trying to think of, you
[02:42:03.200] know, other other guys, you know, back
[02:42:05.439] in the day would would have been like
[02:42:06.800] Stanton Friedman or Leonard Stringfield
[02:42:08.479] or whatever, guys who you just have to
[02:42:09.680] give your props to as far as like
[02:42:11.120] knowledge on this stuff. Um, I think
[02:42:15.120] those guys are often like way stronger
[02:42:17.200] than me like on like an amalgamation of
[02:42:19.359] facts and sightings. Like they just have
[02:42:21.280] more of it.
[02:42:22.000] I think as far as like theory, I'm I'm
[02:42:24.000] pretty deep on this stuff. So I think
[02:42:25.920] there was like a mutual respect there uh
[02:42:28.960] and like coming to the same conclusions
[02:42:31.520] and then I think it was also uh kind of
[02:42:34.479] a trust building process where uh I
[02:42:37.520] don't know if he would have he well
[02:42:39.680] first of all he was trying to put this
[02:42:41.359] out through like mainstream media
[02:42:42.720] initially and the Washington Post and
[02:42:45.760] New York Times kind of shhat the bed and
[02:42:48.000] didn't end up running with the story.
[02:42:50.000] Why?
[02:42:50.240] And so I
[02:42:52.080] I don't know,
[02:42:52.800] especially New York Times.
[02:42:54.080] I don't know why. Um I think, you know,
[02:42:56.960] I spoke to Leslie Kane about it because
[02:42:58.240] Leslie Kane broke the story for the
[02:42:59.439] debrief, but she's a New York Times
[02:43:00.960] staff writer, right?
[02:43:02.000] So she wanted to do it through the New
[02:43:03.280] York Times
[02:43:04.560] and I think what's the guy's name? Uh is
[02:43:08.800] it Julian Barn or uh I think it was
[02:43:12.240] Julian Barnes. I think I think they're
[02:43:13.680] like their like intel editor or whatever
[02:43:16.640] or like national security editor. Um
[02:43:19.439] like I think he's just like kind of anti
[02:43:21.280] the UFO thing,
[02:43:22.319] right?
[02:43:22.960] And so also I think like none of the 40
[02:43:27.600] people could come forward like to
[02:43:29.840] directly to the New York Times and I
[02:43:31.439] think like they they doubted that the
[02:43:33.280] whole thing is actually absurd because
[02:43:34.960] you have colleagues of Grush's coming
[02:43:36.960] out. You published the 2017 stuff. Why
[02:43:39.600] wouldn't you publish Grush? First of
[02:43:41.120] all, that's total double standard right
[02:43:43.520] there. But like second of all, you have
[02:43:45.439] like
[02:43:47.040] pretty unimpeachable colleagues of
[02:43:48.720] crushes, guys like Carl Nell who set up
[02:43:50.880] Army Futures Command and you know and
[02:43:53.920] and others saying like you know this
[02:43:55.439] guy's like legit and and and and
[02:43:58.080] defending his credentials and then Gush
[02:43:59.920] coming out and saying what he's saying.
[02:44:01.520] That itself is a story and you can
[02:44:04.560] caveat it with whatever you want if
[02:44:06.399] you're the New York Times.
[02:44:07.920] But to me not publishing that shows like
[02:44:10.000] a primmaaccia a priori disinterest or
[02:44:12.960] bias. That's weird. Very weird.
[02:44:15.359] Yeah. It doesn't make sense. You can say
[02:44:17.279] like we don't know and and XYZ need to
[02:44:19.600] be corroborated, but you have the ICIG
[02:44:22.399] Thomas Manheim saying this is urgent and
[02:44:24.720] credible. That's him. That's not you.
[02:44:26.880] And then you have his credentials being
[02:44:28.240] sort of backed up. And so I don't I
[02:44:30.399] can't answer that like why they didn't
[02:44:31.680] publish it. But then I think it was this
[02:44:33.920] thing where he was feeling really burned
[02:44:35.520] by like the mainstream media and he's
[02:44:37.120] like, "Oh, my friend Jesse, yeah, he has
[02:44:39.120] like a smaller channel, but like he's
[02:44:41.359] really deep on this stuff. He's high
[02:44:42.960] conviction on it.
[02:44:44.000] Excellent episode, by the way.
[02:44:45.520] Thanks, man.
[02:44:45.920] That one with him.
[02:44:46.880] Appreciate that. Yeah, it was it was fun
[02:44:48.640] to make. That one felt like really like
[02:44:50.720] a
[02:44:51.600] I don't know. It was like a beautiful
[02:44:52.800] moment. Like I was I was pumped to to do
[02:44:54.640] it for him and for the whole kind of
[02:44:56.640] movement.
[02:44:57.600] Yeah.
[02:44:58.000] Yeah.
[02:44:58.479] Yeah. It's The thing that keeps coming
[02:45:00.479] into my head is some of these stories
[02:45:02.080] I've heard from behind the scenes where
[02:45:05.040] Intel comes in says, "Don't do that."
[02:45:08.800] Yeah. And that would especially
[02:45:12.240] considering Leslie's there like that's
[02:45:14.960] what I'm thinking especially also given
[02:45:17.120] that he was getting reprisals behind the
[02:45:19.040] scenes so people weren't happy about
[02:45:20.720] this. There's clearly some sort of
[02:45:22.240] internal war war inside the government.
[02:45:24.319] And I I don't know if I know the exact
[02:45:25.920] fault lines, but it's clear there's some
[02:45:28.160] some, you know, part of the government
[02:45:30.240] does not want this out.
[02:45:31.840] Another, you know, really really does in
[02:45:34.720] a limited sense and over time. There's
[02:45:37.120] nobody that I think is full Ed Snowden
[02:45:39.359] on this.
[02:45:40.000] I Yes. I We were talking about this
[02:45:42.080] before camera. I agree.
[02:45:43.279] Yeah. Yeah. So, um I think it's a war
[02:45:45.680] between those two sides. I'm I'm
[02:45:48.240] definitely on the side of like again not
[02:45:50.960] knowing onlogical truth or whatever and
[02:45:53.600] being on the outside. Uh I'm on the side
[02:45:56.640] of like I don't see any reason. I've
[02:45:58.479] been given no reasons outside of like
[02:46:00.319] these rumors you hear guys like Jeremy
[02:46:02.240] Corbel or like Ross Coloulthart who are
[02:46:04.240] like supposedly in touch with people
[02:46:06.000] like in and around the actual program.
[02:46:08.560] It's just like they always say like you
[02:46:10.080] know we get deep we get super deep with
[02:46:11.920] these people and like they they all say
[02:46:13.439] the same thing at the end of the
[02:46:14.560] conversation which is if you knew what I
[02:46:16.080] would know you wouldn't be pro disclo
[02:46:17.920] you know you hear that over and over
[02:46:19.520] again and so I'm not inclined to dismiss
[02:46:21.359] it like I think
[02:46:23.680] um there are there's a credulousness to
[02:46:26.240] that world sometimes of reporting but I
[02:46:28.640] also think they're doing good work and
[02:46:30.240] like it's you know it's it's uh
[02:46:32.000] important to not throw the baby out with
[02:46:34.319] the bath water and kind of parse the
[02:46:35.920] good from the bad. Um, you know, I think
[02:46:38.399] I think some of the stuff that they're
[02:46:39.760] that they're bringing out is really good
[02:46:41.439] and then sometimes it's a little
[02:46:42.560] indiscriminate at times or whatever. But
[02:46:44.720] your idea though that it's like pieces
[02:46:47.600] of the government, certain people know
[02:46:49.680] certain things about certain topics and
[02:46:51.760] then they don't know about these other
[02:46:53.120] 50 topics that same thing for this other
[02:46:55.439] team over here, but they don't know
[02:46:56.800] about this one. You know what I mean?
[02:46:58.080] like there's there's this
[02:46:59.600] compartmentalization that happens and
[02:47:01.520] then maybe there's very few who are
[02:47:03.439] actually
[02:47:04.479] like individuals literally who are like
[02:47:06.479] read in on on most of it. Therefore, the
[02:47:08.960] secret is kept in all these different
[02:47:11.520] places where you need all of it together
[02:47:14.080] to really make sense of it. And frankly,
[02:47:16.399] the same people who are saying if you
[02:47:17.840] knew what I knew, well, they only know
[02:47:19.520] one piece out of the 200. That would be
[02:47:22.319] my strong bias is like you meet some of
[02:47:25.200] these people with like you know hardcore
[02:47:27.680] intel credentials or whatever and like I
[02:47:31.200] just don't think like they have the
[02:47:33.279] epistemic ability like yeah you might
[02:47:35.279] have like a treasure trove of data
[02:47:37.120] proving that this stuff is real like
[02:47:39.279] tons of crashes here and like you know
[02:47:41.120] this thing was detected here and what
[02:47:42.560] you know whatever but I think that and
[02:47:46.479] like you know the ability to like un
[02:47:50.319] like holistically have like a worldview
[02:47:52.399] like an expanded worldview like a
[02:47:54.000] metaphysical understanding of reality is
[02:47:56.800] like very different and I think you can
[02:47:59.680] be outside the government and have int
[02:48:01.279] like clear intuitions around that uh you
[02:48:04.080] know even that are even greater and more
[02:48:05.760] kind of top of the pyramid so to speak
[02:48:07.600] they're more kind of there's more
[02:48:09.279] consilience and more interdomain
[02:48:10.960] knowledge and connections you're making
[02:48:12.800] than like the dude that like handled a
[02:48:14.960] thing in this one situation or like you
[02:48:17.200] know went through these XYZ files and
[02:48:19.600] like they're sure that like reality is
[02:48:21.840] weirder than we realize and that the
[02:48:23.600] government has some handle on it, but
[02:48:25.520] they don't I don't think have like this
[02:48:27.120] like clear picture of like what's going
[02:48:29.040] on.
[02:48:30.080] And uh I that's why you know I found it
[02:48:32.000] really interesting. There's a story this
[02:48:34.000] guy Robert Sarbacher who um you know uh
[02:48:38.240] was in touch with Wilbert Smith who was
[02:48:40.080] a you know there's written
[02:48:42.479] correspondence between the two. Wilbert
[02:48:44.240] Smith is this um you know uh uh Canadian
[02:48:47.439] engineer and Sarbacher is this American
[02:48:49.840] engineer and he's this uh nuclear expert
[02:48:53.120] and uh he is running the Washington
[02:48:56.240] National Labs. He's close with Towns and
[02:48:58.080] Brown is doing the gravity stuff and I
[02:49:02.000] think he's in on the UFO stuff too. In
[02:49:04.560] 1987, he writes to William Steinman,
[02:49:07.520] who's this UFO researcher, saying, you
[02:49:09.279] know, the rumors around the UFO crashes
[02:49:10.880] are essentially true or substantially
[02:49:12.800] true or whatever. Um, and he says, you
[02:49:15.760] know, John Vonoyman, Vanavar Bush were
[02:49:17.520] involved in these things. Like he goes
[02:49:19.040] on to like, you know, list names. And
[02:49:21.680] maybe he was speaking in sort of coded
[02:49:23.439] fashion, you know, uh, I think he says
[02:49:26.160] fundamentally true or substantially true
[02:49:27.680] and that can sometimes mean you're true
[02:49:29.040] on the surface level, but you're wrong
[02:49:30.399] on the underlying details or whatever.
[02:49:32.880] Um but I think he was you know maybe uh
[02:49:36.479] uh somewhat you know involved in all
[02:49:38.880] this stuff and anyways he you know says
[02:49:42.240] he wasn't fully read into the program
[02:49:44.240] but he points people who come to him in
[02:49:46.640] in again in the 80s like you know later
[02:49:48.640] later in his life to this guy Eric
[02:49:50.319] Walker who's an electrical engineer and
[02:49:53.200] the president of Penn State and Eric
[02:49:57.120] Walker according to him was part of this
[02:49:58.960] like MJ12 lineage or whatever this like
[02:50:02.000] core group of UFO people. And the first
[02:50:04.800] thing that Eric Walker asks, you know,
[02:50:07.279] the UFO the the the inquirers is he
[02:50:09.680] goes, "What do you know about the six
[02:50:10.800] sense?" And they say, "What are you
[02:50:12.960] talking about?" And there he's like,
[02:50:14.000] "What do you know about ESP, extra
[02:50:15.600] sensory perception?" And then he says,
[02:50:17.920] "You're chasing windmills." Like it's
[02:50:19.680] like literally your epistemic aperture
[02:50:21.680] is incapable of the disclosure. It's not
[02:50:24.240] like disclosure is like this like
[02:50:26.160] semantic information. It's not like this
[02:50:28.080] file that he can just give you. It's
[02:50:30.080] like you're literally like you're you're
[02:50:31.680] chasing your tail. You have no idea,
[02:50:33.760] right,
[02:50:34.160] what you're dealing with. Like you're
[02:50:35.760] like almost like not even like able to
[02:50:37.680] comprehend this stuff. And I that's
[02:50:40.399] always stuck with me because I I do
[02:50:42.960] think um it's like a it's like a you
[02:50:46.080] know, knowledge on this stuff is like a
[02:50:47.760] drip, but it comes from something
[02:50:49.680] higher. It's not coming necessarily from
[02:50:52.880] the government or whatever. Like if
[02:50:54.479] you're if you're focused on that drip,
[02:50:56.160] good luck. It's going to take like a
[02:50:57.760] long time. you're going to get like, you
[02:50:59.760] know, uh, little bits and pieces or
[02:51:02.240] whatever along with everybody else over
[02:51:03.680] the next 10 years or whatever. But, you
[02:51:05.600] know, I think I think developing your
[02:51:07.200] own epistemic aperture is like this
[02:51:10.240] really crucial thing in this in this in
[02:51:12.960] this whole story. Um, and so yeah, I I
[02:51:16.160] think that's like a very telling a
[02:51:17.680] telling story that it's it's really
[02:51:19.680] about your own epistemics in some ways
[02:51:21.600] more so than
[02:51:22.960] Yeah. And then you you you have the
[02:51:24.880] people like Grush though who have access
[02:51:26.960] to things
[02:51:28.080] and find it. Yes. And you know
[02:51:30.800] what's the term? Epistemic aperture.
[02:51:32.880] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[02:51:33.760] He develops his own epistemic aperture.
[02:51:35.920] Well, he's a he's a good example. He's
[02:51:37.840] got both. He's got Yeah. Yeah. Sorry for
[02:51:40.960] my annoying
[02:51:42.560] I could tell you spend a lot of time
[02:51:44.000] around Eric Weinstein.
[02:51:45.920] Yeah. Exactly. Got it from him. Um Yeah.
[02:51:49.439] Yeah. that whole that that the whole
[02:51:51.680] that whole universe is you know a lot of
[02:51:53.439] it's whole it's its own lexicon of uh of
[02:51:56.000] words. Um but um yeah um I think he's a
[02:52:01.680] good example of both. I think he has
[02:52:03.279] like you know uh really creative mind
[02:52:06.160] and like is really strong on like theory
[02:52:08.240] as well as like he clearly is like has a
[02:52:11.279] lot of actual hardcore info. Well, I
[02:52:13.920] before I ask the next question, just for
[02:52:16.319] the people out there listening who need
[02:52:18.800] to be rehashed on some of the things he
[02:52:20.960] revealed or haven't heard it before, I
[02:52:22.800] know most people obviously have heard
[02:52:24.080] this. Can you just review that like the
[02:52:26.720] highlights of what he revealed and then
[02:52:28.319] I have a question about some of those
[02:52:29.680] findings.
[02:52:30.319] Yeah, sure. So, Grush.
[02:52:31.520] Yes. Basically his findings are we have
[02:52:34.319] had a legacy crash retrieval program
[02:52:36.960] that goes back not only to Roswell but
[02:52:39.279] to 1933 this Magenta crash in Italy.
[02:52:42.880] Mh.
[02:52:43.359] Uh that uh basically aerospace companies
[02:52:47.200] have been involved in this uh various
[02:52:49.279] aerospace companies since then. Uh
[02:52:52.560] they've not always been subject to kind
[02:52:54.399] of traditional government oversight and
[02:52:56.080] FOYA. the clearance system that you know
[02:52:58.399] classifies this stuff is the you know
[02:53:01.120] NPQ you know DOE clearance system the
[02:53:04.479] atomic energy stuff not you know normal
[02:53:06.960] national security you know top secret
[02:53:08.800] TSSEI like that that that sort of line
[02:53:11.680] is not applicable here some presidents
[02:53:14.399] don't even have a need to know and that
[02:53:16.880] you have these kind of bulcanized you
[02:53:18.800] know again corporate entities that are
[02:53:20.720] engaging in like trying to like reverse
[02:53:22.800] engineer these crafts and he brought
[02:53:25.040] forward 40 people who worked on these
[02:53:28.000] programs to the inspector general uh uh
[02:53:32.080] you know the intelligence community
[02:53:33.279] inspector general. And so those those
[02:53:35.040] are his claims. And he claims that
[02:53:36.319] non-human biologics
[02:53:38.479] uh came with the crafts or piloted the
[02:53:40.399] crafts as well. And that uh the
[02:53:42.960] materials in the crafts contain heavy
[02:53:46.080] elements. So elements with isotope
[02:53:48.319] ratios that don't exist on earth but
[02:53:50.160] heavy elements elements like you know in
[02:53:52.960] places on the periodic table where you
[02:53:54.880] can't use centrifuges to mess with the
[02:53:58.960] uh you know the isotopes like uh it
[02:54:01.520] would be extremely hard to manipulate
[02:54:03.040] these uh you know if you're just a
[02:54:05.680] random scientist. Um so yeah some pretty
[02:54:08.640] bombshell claims.
[02:54:09.600] Yeah, a lot. So, our very first phone
[02:54:12.399] conversation we had, we got into this
[02:54:14.640] long talk about what
[02:54:18.560] what could like how Grush could be
[02:54:20.800] telling the truth but set up to do it.
[02:54:23.040] And and I've talked about this on other
[02:54:24.800] podcasts and I've said I really want
[02:54:26.319] Jesse in here to explain it from his
[02:54:27.920] lens because he'll explain a lot better.
[02:54:29.600] But what I had asked you on the phone
[02:54:31.359] was like, is it possible that you have
[02:54:34.640] someone who is both curious and smart
[02:54:38.319] like Grush who within the levers of
[02:54:41.359] government is identified as a, oh,
[02:54:43.760] that's a dude who's going to look into
[02:54:45.120] some stuff if given the opportunity? Is
[02:54:47.200] it possible that as a part of some sort
[02:54:50.080] of SCOP, if you will, there were a lot
[02:54:52.800] of nuts left on a trail for what they
[02:54:55.680] deem to be the squirrel grush for him to
[02:54:57.680] pick up and run with to go out and
[02:54:59.520] disclose things that actually aren't
[02:55:01.040] true.
[02:55:02.000] To which you gave me an answer, the
[02:55:04.000] short answer of no, I don't think that I
[02:55:07.520] think there's too much here. But what's
[02:55:09.439] what was the full logic there that made
[02:55:11.680] you go there's too much here for that to
[02:55:14.240] be the case?
[02:55:16.080] Yeah. Well, I just knowing him and like
[02:55:18.160] how detail oriented and like, you know,
[02:55:20.720] autistically like obsessed with like
[02:55:22.720] detail. I think uh is one thing
[02:55:26.880] there's, you know, a possibility like
[02:55:28.640] they're, you know, trying to in some
[02:55:30.640] super coordinated fashion sending him
[02:55:32.399] down the wrong path. But like I asked
[02:55:33.840] him that in my interview with him like
[02:55:35.439] on air, you know, in our show and he was
[02:55:37.840] like, "Yeah, but like I had other people
[02:55:40.640] back channel with the people talking to
[02:55:42.479] me and like those people did like they
[02:55:44.479] had intersected with my my own career
[02:55:46.240] from like decades prior or whatever or a
[02:55:49.120] decade prior and like you know they
[02:55:52.399] wouldn't lie to me and they especially
[02:55:54.399] wouldn't because they don't know each
[02:55:55.760] other. they wouldn't be able to like
[02:55:56.800] coordinate to that level. And so like I
[02:55:59.760] just I think that's like a you know it's
[02:56:03.600] I asked him and he was like I'm 99% sure
[02:56:06.080] that so like even he's thinking
[02:56:07.680] probabilistically 1%.
[02:56:09.359] Yes.
[02:56:09.840] But um you know I just Yeah, I don't
[02:56:12.240] know. I don't I don't I don't think
[02:56:13.520] that's that's likely. And then you have
[02:56:15.120] all the like Robert Hastings like just
[02:56:17.040] like the UFOs and nuke stuff where it's
[02:56:19.680] all the open source stuff just weirdly
[02:56:22.319] comports with the classified stuff. So
[02:56:25.040] again, if you're like a freakishly good
[02:56:28.399] counterintel person or whatever, and
[02:56:30.640] maybe you're trying to trick Grush and
[02:56:32.560] trick Grush into tricking me or
[02:56:34.240] whatever, um maybe you comport all of
[02:56:37.439] the internal stuff. You fabricate
[02:56:39.439] internal documents to like look like the
[02:56:41.520] open- source stuff in a way that like
[02:56:44.560] you know it all coheres perfectly. But
[02:56:47.840] Tal's answering the phone at Palanteer
[02:56:49.520] like I got just the guy.
[02:56:54.800] But like it's like if you're if you're
[02:56:56.960] trying to if you're trying to do that
[02:57:00.479] then
[02:57:02.000] that I mean first of all like whoever
[02:57:04.080] would do this like grandmaster job
[02:57:05.840] genius
[02:57:06.319] genius like incredible job. Um but I I I
[02:57:10.960] just don't see it and I see like the
[02:57:12.720] amount of like desperate it's like
[02:57:14.800] take this pathway of like reasoning
[02:57:16.960] right you have Robert Hastings UFOs and
[02:57:19.120] nukes. You have uh an extremely credible
[02:57:22.479] database of 170 people who do not get
[02:57:25.439] into this job due to any sort of
[02:57:27.200] histrionic attention-seeking desire for
[02:57:30.399] UFO, you know, for for themselves. They
[02:57:32.560] don't want to be famous, you know, uh
[02:57:34.960] and UFOs keep showing up around our most
[02:57:37.439] precious important assets. And every
[02:57:39.359] time they do, the Air Force Office of
[02:57:40.880] Special Investigations shows up and they
[02:57:44.240] threaten them and say, "We're going to
[02:57:46.000] screw with your career." And, you know,
[02:57:47.680] swear them to secrecy. And in certain
[02:57:49.359] cases, the people get deleted from the
[02:57:51.359] government like Bob Jacobs and then
[02:57:53.200] their superiors later have to say they
[02:57:54.880] were real. Okay. So,
[02:57:55.920] what happened with Bob Jacobs?
[02:57:57.840] They said they said he never worked at
[02:57:59.680] Vandenberg and he's a photo
[02:58:01.439] instrumentation specialist there that in
[02:58:03.200] ' 64 sees this, you know, um UFO
[02:58:05.680] wrapping around this dummy nuclear Atlas
[02:58:08.000] 5 warhead. And so, um you know, you hear
[02:58:10.960] these stories over and over and over
[02:58:12.560] again. And then then you could still say
[02:58:15.439] right like okay it's credible database
[02:58:17.520] like these people are really smart and
[02:58:18.720] high agency but like maybe it's like
[02:58:21.200] still this like US deep state thing and
[02:58:23.520] like they like somehow like prime all
[02:58:25.520] the the nuclear people and like it's
[02:58:27.600] this you know maybe that's like this pro
[02:58:29.600] like you know trying to like make people
[02:58:32.560] think that we're protected by the aliens
[02:58:34.399] or something by it's like orbs are
[02:58:36.720] showing up I don't know some you can
[02:58:38.399] spin some tall tale
[02:58:40.160] but then you get into the fact that
[02:58:41.840] there are nuclear there are UFO
[02:58:44.240] sightings in Barello in Argentina
[02:58:46.399] because there's a civilian nuclear grid
[02:58:48.000] there and there's a literally a town in
[02:58:50.640] Japan in in Eno um in in right in
[02:58:54.800] Fukushima next to the prefrure where
[02:58:56.800] they have all their nuclear energy that
[02:58:58.399] is like dedicated to UFOs and there's a
[02:59:00.479] museum there that's all around UFOs and
[02:59:03.840] so like you hear enough of this stuff
[02:59:05.920] and you're like there is a there there
[02:59:08.240] like anybody that's like this isn't
[02:59:09.840] worthy of investigation I'm like you
[02:59:11.600] just have like bad Beijian reasoning
[02:59:13.680] like you have this a priori bucket that
[02:59:15.920] you just put like you put this stuff
[02:59:18.479] into you put it in the impossible bucket
[02:59:20.399] you don't look at it you're not looking
[02:59:21.600] at it earnestly like you didn't look
[02:59:23.359] listen to what I just said if you
[02:59:25.120] actually take in the fact pattern that I
[02:59:27.840] just gave then you have to think the
[02:59:30.160] stuff is real and then yeah is that
[02:59:32.240] there a possibility there's some
[02:59:33.840] mastermind being like and somehow atomic
[02:59:37.359] secrecy is overlaying this stuff and
[02:59:39.439] like these scientists were involved and
[02:59:40.880] the Australians also thought they were
[02:59:42.479] involved and like you know uh the
[02:59:45.279] magnesium bismouth is showing up here
[02:59:46.960] but it's also in the towns and brown
[02:59:48.399] stuff like it but maybe I don't know but
[02:59:51.279] like I don't know that's that feels that
[02:59:53.760] feels like all of a sudden if that's
[02:59:55.680] your null hypothesis the null hypothesis
[02:59:58.080] becomes more of a stretch more of a
[03:00:01.040] logical stretch than just there's some
[03:00:03.520] intelligence here that's not human that
[03:00:05.840] all of a sudden becomes a more
[03:00:08.800] epistemically acceptable base case And
[03:00:11.680] actually like if you're so what are you
[03:00:13.279] saying? You're saying there's some cabal
[03:00:14.640] that's controlling Baraloce, controlling
[03:00:17.359] Japan and controlling our nuclear
[03:00:19.040] assets. Like what are you actually
[03:00:21.279] proposing if you look at the real fact
[03:00:23.279] pattern?
[03:00:24.319] And so I I I don't see too many people
[03:00:26.640] like if you had like Sean Kirkpatrick on
[03:00:28.479] like the old head of era
[03:00:29.840] y
[03:00:30.880] he's not like earnestly engaging with
[03:00:33.279] these like you know nuclear cases or
[03:00:35.200] whatever like there is clearly a
[03:00:36.880] connection there. And so like that.
[03:00:39.359] Yeah, that's that's that's all I need to
[03:00:41.200] know. There's like something clearly
[03:00:42.720] very very real here. And then like all
[03:00:45.120] the grush stuff just like backs that up.
[03:00:46.800] It like coheres with it like pretty
[03:00:48.319] perfectly. And then it's like okay you
[03:00:50.800] think it's a scop like to what end? To
[03:00:53.200] what end is it like purely a scop you
[03:00:55.359] know?
[03:00:55.760] Purely.
[03:00:56.560] Yeah. Yeah. Like maybe maybe you know
[03:00:59.439] there are people in this movement or
[03:01:01.680] whatever in the UFO disclosure movement
[03:01:03.120] with ulterior motives. Maybe part of it
[03:01:04.960] adversary signaling. Maybe part of it's
[03:01:06.720] tech protection. Maybe part of it's
[03:01:08.160] refresh the talent pool on some secret
[03:01:09.760] science programs. Maybe it's like you
[03:01:11.920] think of a whole host of things that
[03:01:13.840] like are interior ulterior motives that
[03:01:16.399] you're going to like push this stuff
[03:01:17.680] with. Um, having said that, just the the
[03:01:22.640] the the fact pattern itself, I think, is
[03:01:25.200] just undeniable and kind of
[03:01:26.319] unimpeachable. And like that's what
[03:01:27.840] interests me. And like I have a sense of
[03:01:31.760] some people doing some of the other
[03:01:34.399] stuff. I don't want to talk about it
[03:01:36.720] because I just want to follow the truth,
[03:01:39.040] right?
[03:01:39.359] And I don't want to get I don't want to
[03:01:40.640] [ __ ] with anybody. I think it's probably
[03:01:42.640] dangerous enough to be looking into like
[03:01:44.240] the core ontological truth stuff. And so
[03:01:46.640] I'm not trying to like, you know, and
[03:01:48.800] to, you know, maybe some of these
[03:01:50.240] sci-ops or some of, you know, some of
[03:01:51.760] these, you know, ulterior motives are
[03:01:53.439] like it's not my it's not my my motive
[03:01:56.000] is like the truth, but like I don't I
[03:01:57.600] don't want to [ __ ] with, you know,
[03:01:58.800] somebody having some,
[03:02:00.399] you know, trying to, you know, uh,
[03:02:02.000] maintain American supremacy in some of
[03:02:03.920] these areas. Like whatever, do your
[03:02:06.080] thing. you're and you're also within the
[03:02:07.920] community itself. It's clear and it
[03:02:09.279] comes across in this conversation, but
[03:02:10.560] also in your actions that I've seen
[03:02:12.080] online now for a long time. Like you're
[03:02:14.080] you're a peaceful truth seeker in this
[03:02:17.120] way. You know, you're not trying to get
[03:02:18.240] in the middle of some of the much of the
[03:02:20.000] [ __ ] drama that happens like in UFO
[03:02:22.560] Twitter and stuff like that. It's about
[03:02:24.399] like, okay, if there's people who
[03:02:26.720] allegedly
[03:02:28.479] have access to some information here,
[03:02:30.240] let's hear them out. Let's talk with
[03:02:31.520] them. I don't care who they [ __ ] with
[03:02:32.720] and who they don't [ __ ] with. Like, you
[03:02:34.800] know, it's what it is. and and we we
[03:02:36.720] need that in order for the space to be
[03:02:38.479] taken seriously. We we need that and it
[03:02:41.279] seems like
[03:02:43.439] well I I think you guys straight up said
[03:02:44.960] it so it's more than it seems like you
[03:02:47.200] also
[03:02:48.800] were able to turn around your colleague
[03:02:51.760] Eric Weinstein into looking into this
[03:02:54.080] because for a long time he was like yo
[03:02:55.920] [ __ ] that. So what was it that really
[03:02:58.000] it's it's not like he's out there saying
[03:02:59.279] yo the aliens are here
[03:03:00.880] but he's he's looking at it in an
[03:03:02.960] educated questioning truth seeeking way
[03:03:05.520] it seems at this point what what what
[03:03:07.760] conversation changed that what what what
[03:03:09.600] action changed that to where suddenly
[03:03:11.359] he's like all right Jesse
[03:03:12.720] I think two things happened for him one
[03:03:15.680] is
[03:03:17.200] he started to become more public about
[03:03:19.120] his physics theory of everything the
[03:03:20.640] geometric unity stuff which I think he
[03:03:22.399] presented in Oxford in like 2013 but
[03:03:25.040] like you had half the people being like
[03:03:26.960] this is this is it and then the other
[03:03:28.880] half was like I don't know what he said
[03:03:30.479] and I don't you know and like it you
[03:03:32.399] know kind of like he developed it and
[03:03:34.160] then he went on Rogan and he sort of
[03:03:35.680] published it again and I think the combo
[03:03:39.439] of him presenting it and like there
[03:03:41.279] being nobody to like corroborate or
[03:03:43.760] falsify it like it's like he can't talk
[03:03:45.520] to anybody about this stuff and then he
[03:03:48.479] starts to get into like this very
[03:03:50.080] interesting other angle to the UFO thing
[03:03:52.080] which is like these guys like John
[03:03:53.439] Wheeler and Bryce Dit working on science
[03:03:56.880] that might have not met the eye. This
[03:03:59.040] like idea of the golden age of
[03:04:00.399] relativity and this kind of like, you
[03:04:02.479] know, extreme interest in the gravity
[03:04:04.000] stuff in the ' 50s. And so he's like in
[03:04:06.640] his mind thinking maybe I've figured
[03:04:08.960] some stuff out on my own, but maybe some
[03:04:11.200] other people have gotten there before
[03:04:12.560] me. Maybe there's some program around
[03:04:14.000] this. What's going on? And he does a
[03:04:16.240] whole follow-up, you know, Rogan
[03:04:17.840] episode. But it was not the one with
[03:04:19.120] Terence Howard, the one before it where
[03:04:21.439] he says some crazy things like Jim
[03:04:23.279] Simons of like Renaissance technology
[03:04:25.359] and that was February 2023.
[03:04:27.520] Yeah. He was like maybe there's some
[03:04:28.720] secret, you know, physics stuff going on
[03:04:30.319] there. You have like the number it's the
[03:04:31.920] greatest concentration of differential
[03:04:33.520] geometers and stuff, you know. It's I
[03:04:35.279] don't know.
[03:04:35.600] The best line in there is Mukaku.
[03:04:37.680] Yeah. Yeah.
[03:04:38.240] Mukaku is out of control. And you just
[03:04:40.399] see Joe just
[03:04:42.880] he's like get Mukaku in here with me and
[03:04:45.279] Joe's like why? Yeah, that's so funny.
[03:04:48.399] Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, he says he
[03:04:52.399] Yeah. So, so he is, you know, there's a
[03:04:55.600] combo of like maybe these guys have
[03:04:57.200] figured out some of the stuff that I've
[03:04:58.880] figured out.
[03:05:00.319] Uh and maybe there's this whole like,
[03:05:01.920] you know, secret national maybe maybe,
[03:05:04.080] you know, uh the the physics that I've
[03:05:06.000] been working on has been like weaponized
[03:05:07.520] or something. And then there's this
[03:05:09.040] confluence of that and the Pentagon
[03:05:12.000] admitting there are things in the sky
[03:05:13.359] that, you know, we don't know how to
[03:05:14.640] identify. And you have these two office
[03:05:16.720] of naval intelligence reports uh I think
[03:05:19.680] one in 2020 and one in 2021 and you have
[03:05:22.800] you know associated mainstream media
[03:05:24.800] articles and press around that and I do
[03:05:27.520] think uh you know Eric's a very
[03:05:29.760] heterodox first principles thinker
[03:05:31.840] but he also has to like walk this tight
[03:05:33.760] rope of like I have to maintain a level
[03:05:35.920] of respectability among like academics
[03:05:38.240] that I'm like trying to like spar with
[03:05:40.080] because he is on their level I think
[03:05:41.760] intellectually for sure like above a lot
[03:05:43.600] of their level and like when I hear Sean
[03:05:45.520] Carol being like, "Oh, like he doesn't
[03:05:48.080] even like I think Kirch Mungle asked him
[03:05:49.920] about Eric and he was like, "That guy's
[03:05:51.600] like an amateur. He just has like pet
[03:05:53.120] theories or whatever." He's like
[03:05:54.160] throwing him in with like Brian Green, a
[03:05:55.680] couple other I'm like, "Dude, just shut
[03:05:57.279] up. Like what have you done that?" Yeah.
[03:05:59.359] Yeah. Like you're just like a pop
[03:06:01.200] quantum mechanic. I mean, he's obviously
[03:06:03.920] extremely smart, but like but like Yeah.
[03:06:06.880] You shouldn't do that. You shouldn't
[03:06:08.000] like condescend, you know? Yes. And so
[03:06:10.240] anyways, I think Eric, all of that's to
[03:06:12.640] say like I think he is very first
[03:06:14.000] principles, but I do think there's a
[03:06:16.640] difference between Jesse, his podcast
[03:06:19.120] partner, and like venture guy at, you
[03:06:22.319] know, Teal Capital being like, "Yo, UFOs
[03:06:24.880] are real. Like, look at this. Look at
[03:06:26.720] this."
[03:06:27.520] That's different than like Pentagon, New
[03:06:30.240] York Times being like, you know, we just
[03:06:32.080] we don't know what this stuff is. You
[03:06:33.680] know, this stuff is this stuff is real.
[03:06:35.279] So, I do think to his credit, he
[03:06:38.479] immediately credited me with like,
[03:06:40.160] "Okay, you've been pushing like I
[03:06:41.439] thought you were like brain dead in this
[03:06:42.640] one area. I appreciate you pushing me on
[03:06:44.160] this for like a long time, but I do
[03:06:46.479] think that allowed him to, you know,
[03:06:48.399] talk about it more publicly and like
[03:06:49.920] really take it more seriously."
[03:06:51.439] Yeah. Well, I mean the the other 500lb
[03:06:54.399] elephant in the room here with all these
[03:06:55.840] things we're seeing in the sky is
[03:06:57.279] something I don't think it's come up a
[03:06:59.520] little bit today, but not really
[03:07:00.800] directly. And that is, you know, what
[03:07:03.120] could be weaponry.
[03:07:05.040] Yeah.
[03:07:05.359] That we don't know about versus
[03:07:07.840] everything else. I mean,
[03:07:09.200] yeah,
[03:07:09.600] for me, a a major case with that a guy
[03:07:12.800] as a witness who I've really liked is
[03:07:15.520] David Fraer because he's very
[03:07:18.319] matter of fact and he has the video on
[03:07:20.160] on the screen. And he's like, "Look,
[03:07:21.840] this is what I do. This is my expertise.
[03:07:24.240] This is what I saw. It went,
[03:07:26.960] yeah,
[03:07:27.600] I don't see Tic Tacs. I don't see [ __ ]
[03:07:29.520] like that doing that.
[03:07:31.200] That's not something that is a part of
[03:07:33.359] ours that I know about." Meaning, draw
[03:07:35.600] your own conclusions here. I think it
[03:07:37.040] might be alien, but like I don't know.
[03:07:38.560] Is it something else?
[03:07:39.680] You know, you could go way too deep with
[03:07:41.600] this and like get out of control to
[03:07:43.520] things you don't know. But like I've
[03:07:45.439] heard from a lot of
[03:07:48.479] I guess people who might know something
[03:07:50.880] about something. It's hard to say.
[03:07:52.640] Yeah.
[03:07:52.960] That like DARPA for example could be 40
[03:07:56.399] years ahead of us in technology. So when
[03:07:58.880] you see something like that where it is
[03:08:00.720] an unidentified aerial phenomenon,
[03:08:02.720] right? It's not we don't know if it's
[03:08:04.080] alien or not. Does your mind go towards
[03:08:07.040] for some of these things you know may
[03:08:08.640] maybe that is our weaponry and most
[03:08:10.560] likely not in adversaries otherwise
[03:08:12.160] they'd have taken us over by now? It's
[03:08:14.160] it's possible. I've heard things to that
[03:08:16.720] effect. I do think if you look at the
[03:08:19.120] actual observables of, you know, the tic
[03:08:21.920] tac. It's like it's extremely it's like
[03:08:25.200] just crazy maneuverability and like you
[03:08:28.399] know you're breaking basic conservation
[03:08:29.920] of momentum. So it is it is like new
[03:08:32.000] physics or it's like a spoofing thing
[03:08:34.399] that like but then like how do you spoof
[03:08:36.960] the fleer and then they say they have
[03:08:38.880] radar. How do you spoof the fleer, the
[03:08:40.319] radar and the actual eyewitnesses? Yeah,
[03:08:42.880] that's a lot of spoofing.
[03:08:44.399] So then you're getting into like a crazy
[03:08:46.880] claim which is like we have like
[03:08:48.800] physics, you know, in deep black
[03:08:50.880] aerospace. And so I just think that
[03:08:53.200] requires like a a lot of follow-up and
[03:08:55.120] evidence,
[03:08:55.520] of course.
[03:08:56.319] But yeah, I've heard certain people say
[03:08:58.800] that that might be the case. And yeah, I
[03:09:00.640] just don't I don't know what to think
[03:09:01.920] about it. You know, if that is the case,
[03:09:04.319] it's of the Towns and Brown lineage
[03:09:07.279] would be my belief. Yeah. I my brain
[03:09:10.240] also little conspiratorial goes towards
[03:09:13.920] some of that operation paperclipip and
[03:09:15.840] some of the things the Nazis were on to.
[03:09:17.920] Yeah.
[03:09:18.240] You know, cuz you basically saved like
[03:09:19.600] some of the worst people on the earth
[03:09:20.800] who just happen to be very smart.
[03:09:22.319] Yeah.
[03:09:22.720] At something. You brought them over
[03:09:24.080] here. We know some of them put us
[03:09:26.240] into [ __ ] space and [ __ ]
[03:09:28.080] And it's like what were they able to
[03:09:30.080] maneuver?
[03:09:31.600] You brought up a lot of amazing research
[03:09:33.279] today about anti-gravity and and
[03:09:34.960] projects that were going on in the 50s
[03:09:36.640] and 60s,
[03:09:37.359] but it starts in in Nazi Germany.
[03:09:39.680] Yeah.
[03:09:40.160] Yeah. And that do you know about like
[03:09:42.080] Commto? Have you heard of that?
[03:09:44.560] Comller stop.
[03:09:45.359] Yeah. Have you heard Comler Stab?
[03:09:47.680] Fill me in.
[03:09:48.560] So there's a this SS officer named Hans
[03:09:50.880] Comler. He's the most ruthless Nazi.
[03:09:54.160] like Albert Spear who was head of all
[03:09:55.840] armaments for the Nazis said you know uh
[03:09:58.880] Hans Conler was the most ruthless
[03:10:01.600] unscrupulous guy I was forced to
[03:10:03.520] collaborate with and so you're talking
[03:10:05.359] about a Nazis worked with like Hitler
[03:10:07.040] and Gerbles and you know Himmler and
[03:10:09.600] he's he's saying that this guy is like
[03:10:11.120] the craziest most ruthless guy by 1945
[03:10:13.760] Hans Colmer was in charge of all aerial
[03:10:15.920] armaments for the Nazis the V2s A4s
[03:10:19.840] everything and he had this secret
[03:10:22.800] weapons program called Klerab or Skoda
[03:10:25.680] works and it was based in two places in
[03:10:28.160] Czechoslovakia and Poland and so modern
[03:10:30.880] day you know obviously there was these
[03:10:32.240] were Nazi occupied and you had these
[03:10:34.720] three scientists Richard Mita who was
[03:10:37.040] doing high voltage stuff which is very
[03:10:38.640] similar to what towns and brown was
[03:10:40.000] doing u so you know similar experiments
[03:10:42.399] like you know kind of a short distances
[03:10:45.200] high voltage you know maybe asymmetric
[03:10:47.040] capacitors you had uh uh Rudolph Shriber
[03:10:50.640] who was this German technician who had
[03:10:52.080] it designed for a flying saucer and you
[03:10:54.319] had another guy named Victor Shaburgger
[03:10:56.160] who lived in Austria who we know he said
[03:10:58.960] in his diaries it says or I think it was
[03:11:00.800] a letter to his son he says I'm in
[03:11:02.800] Czechoslovakia and what I'm doing is top
[03:11:04.640] secret and this is in 1942 right after
[03:11:06.640] an SS officer knocked on his door and so
[03:11:09.520] you have all these guys kind of uh um
[03:11:12.319] you know being housed in like these you
[03:11:14.240] know secret weapons programs in Poland
[03:11:16.640] and Czechoslovakia a lot of it is
[03:11:18.000] actually underground and they're working
[03:11:20.479] on all sorts of crazy stuff and mita had
[03:11:24.800] had a you know plan had uh designs for
[03:11:27.279] flying saucer. All of these guys that I
[03:11:28.960] just mentioned had you know designs for
[03:11:30.640] flying saucer. There's another guy named
[03:11:32.000] Enri Kanda who's a Romanian um guy
[03:11:36.080] engineer who was you know was also under
[03:11:38.000] Nazi occupation. He had a a patent for a
[03:11:41.120] lenticular aerodyine saucer and um he I
[03:11:45.040] think also ended up contributing to SCOD
[03:11:47.200] works. So, SCOD works was like a real
[03:11:49.120] thing and they were working on like the
[03:11:51.680] most advanced weaponry at the time and
[03:11:55.359] at the same time you had uh you know uh
[03:11:57.920] foo fighters which are these controlled
[03:12:00.479] balls of lightning. They seem like you
[03:12:02.560] know they're intelligently propulsed or
[03:12:04.080] controlled or whatever
[03:12:05.680] uh with no vapor trails moving in and
[03:12:08.000] out of Allied fighter flight paths. And
[03:12:10.560] so I don't know if there's a connection
[03:12:13.760] between that and SCOD Works, but Skoto
[03:12:16.960] Works was definitely doing some really
[03:12:18.960] crazy stuff. I mean, the the rumors
[03:12:21.279] where they might have been working on,
[03:12:22.479] you know, flying saucer, but there are
[03:12:24.160] also rumors. Have you heard of DLA? Do
[03:12:26.000] you know what that is? This legendary
[03:12:27.520] bell, this German bell. Have you heard
[03:12:29.359] of that?
[03:12:30.560] It's this it's it looks like this sort
[03:12:32.560] of like eggshaped or bell-shaped, you
[03:12:34.800] know, uh, thing. And there's a ceramic
[03:12:37.359] chamber on the inside. It's metallic on
[03:12:39.120] the outside and you you uh use a lot you
[03:12:42.479] know extremely high voltage energy. You
[03:12:44.560] create like a torsion field around this
[03:12:47.120] you know object. You have a person go
[03:12:48.960] inside the object and you slow the
[03:12:52.000] inertial reference frame. So gravity and
[03:12:54.640] time are coupled and so if you create
[03:12:56.960] you know the only ways to affect gravity
[03:12:59.120] are basically through mass and energy
[03:13:01.040] right? So you have like extremely big
[03:13:02.640] planet, you're going to, you know, you
[03:13:03.920] have this gravitational inward force.
[03:13:05.600] But maybe if you have like extremely
[03:13:07.200] high amounts of energy, you can also
[03:13:10.720] create sort of like these synthetic
[03:13:12.319] gravitational effects and then you can
[03:13:13.760] maybe mess with time as well. So you
[03:13:16.080] think about it like the closer you move
[03:13:17.359] to a black hole, you know, time slows
[03:13:20.399] and so the idea would be you create this
[03:13:22.640] sort of torsion field and you create
[03:13:24.319] this different inertial, you know, this
[03:13:25.920] different reference frame on the inside
[03:13:27.279] of the bell as on the outside. And so
[03:13:29.680] time is actually moving slower on the
[03:13:31.439] inside versus the visav the outside. And
[03:13:34.560] so if it's moving like a thousandth of
[03:13:36.560] a, you know, of of the pace of the
[03:13:38.560] outside, you can walk out of that thing,
[03:13:41.520] you know, after, you know, a certain
[03:13:42.960] amount of time, you're a thousand years
[03:13:44.080] in the future. And so um uh it's a crazy
[03:13:47.760] it's a crazy concept. So I that is the
[03:13:50.080] lore that to me is the least believable
[03:13:52.239] thing that could have come out of scotto
[03:13:54.479] works. But we know that or we we have
[03:13:58.239] some evidence that Ernest Growitz who
[03:14:00.319] was head of the SS medical division that
[03:14:03.040] um Joseph Mangala worked under Growitz
[03:14:05.760] uh was maybe involved in this project.
[03:14:08.399] Oh boy.
[03:14:08.960] As yeah as was a guy named Walter
[03:14:10.960] Gerlock who was studying gravity uh you
[03:14:13.680] know in at his university prior to to to
[03:14:16.319] this work. And so it's this really
[03:14:18.720] interesting thing. This guy named Nick
[03:14:19.840] Cook wrote this book called The Hunt for
[03:14:21.359] Zero Point. He documents it really well
[03:14:23.279] and he he meets this Polish journalist
[03:14:25.200] named Igor Witkowski who's probably like
[03:14:26.800] the deepest on this and um Cook comes
[03:14:30.319] out saying I don't know if this was real
[03:14:32.640] but there's like a ton of evidence that
[03:14:34.080] like SCOD works was real that the like
[03:14:35.920] these you had these crazy secret weapons
[03:14:38.800] programs that were like they put the
[03:14:40.560] concept of wonderful like German wonder
[03:14:42.800] weapons to shame
[03:14:44.239] uh you know it's like next level stuff
[03:14:46.080] but he doesn't know you know whether the
[03:14:48.080] bell existed exactly or like what
[03:14:50.160] exactly was going on, but it's a
[03:14:52.160] fascinating inquiry and there's actually
[03:14:54.160] a book um by this guy named Tom Auguston
[03:14:57.600] um and it's I think it's called Blunder
[03:15:01.279] and it's basically about how there was
[03:15:03.840] this fighting for the scraps of works in
[03:15:07.200] 1945 and how the Russians ended up with
[03:15:10.239] a lot of these this this stuff and a lot
[03:15:12.560] of the frameworks that might have come
[03:15:14.000] from SCOD works and then the US ended up
[03:15:16.560] with a lot of it and at you know
[03:15:18.479] originally around um you know 45 it was
[03:15:22.479] thought that uh Comler died or would
[03:15:25.520] disappeared and now we know actually
[03:15:27.600] from a couple of declassified documents
[03:15:29.439] that Comler ended up in the US.
[03:15:31.120] Of course he did
[03:15:31.760] and that they that we took him back and
[03:15:34.000] so that's this like really crazy kind of
[03:15:36.399] you know punctuation mark at the end of
[03:15:38.319] this this story that like is is is very
[03:15:40.560] important and not super well-known. Um,
[03:15:45.200] and so yeah, I mean I I don't know
[03:15:46.960] exactly what you what you make of that,
[03:15:49.840] but I think there was a lot of tech
[03:15:52.000] transfer at the end of the war and it
[03:15:53.680] wasn't just you had missions like Tycom,
[03:15:56.000] which was, you know, for communications
[03:15:57.520] and and ASOS, which is for nuclear stuff
[03:16:00.800] and you had like, you know, you had um
[03:16:02.960] Wernner, you know, you had Heisenberg
[03:16:04.800] and stuff, you know, like in like this
[03:16:06.880] like wiretapped room like trying to
[03:16:08.560] figure out what he knew and stuff. That
[03:16:10.319] was kind of maybe like the white world
[03:16:11.680] nuclear stuff. The way Nick Cook puts
[03:16:13.920] it, um, you had black world nuclear
[03:16:16.880] stuff going on and that was under Comm.
[03:16:18.960] And so Commer was doing, yeah, weird
[03:16:21.840] nuclear stuff. We And then we aviation
[03:16:24.479] stuff. The final story here, which I
[03:16:26.560] think is just mind-blowing because all
[03:16:28.399] of this is still kind of in the like
[03:16:30.160] lore mythological realm, but this maybe
[03:16:32.319] brings it down a little more, is there's
[03:16:35.520] a guy named John Warner, who's actually
[03:16:37.920] um, uh, Chris Melon's cousin,
[03:16:40.399] of course. And so he comes from the
[03:16:42.399] Melon family. His uh grandfather is Paul
[03:16:46.479] Melon. So Paul Melon is one of the
[03:16:48.399] founders of the CIA. And John Warner is
[03:16:51.520] having like a martini with uh Paul
[03:16:54.319] Melon. And you know, his his
[03:16:56.239] grandfather, his grandfather is like
[03:16:57.439] recounting all these crazy stories. And
[03:16:59.439] he's like, you know, three or four
[03:17:00.640] martinis deep. And he says, you know, I
[03:17:03.520] remember being in Czech modern day
[03:17:05.120] Czechoslovakia. And I'm standing on, you
[03:17:07.920] know, on on top of a massive craft and
[03:17:10.239] it's a it's a saucer and um John Warner
[03:17:13.680] says, "Uh, is that the one with the, you
[03:17:15.920] know, a bunch of the BM BMW engines
[03:17:17.920] like, you know, taped taped onto each
[03:17:20.000] other?" And he goes, "No." And he just
[03:17:22.000] like kind of changes the subject. But it
[03:17:23.920] was a trip that he and Alan Dulles. Alan
[03:17:25.840] Dulles obviously third third director of
[03:17:27.520] the CIA,
[03:17:28.720] you know, were on.
[03:17:29.359] Godfather of Operation Paperclip.
[03:17:31.040] Yeah, it was. Exactly. And Dulles was
[03:17:32.800] doing all sorts of crazy stuff like
[03:17:34.560] around the war. He was going gone fully
[03:17:36.160] rogue, you know.
[03:17:36.800] You read Devil's Chessboard?
[03:17:38.080] Yeah, I have. Yeah. Yeah. What a book.
[03:17:40.800] Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And anybody anybody
[03:17:42.960] who watches the Shihan episode I just
[03:17:44.800] did, read that book because it
[03:17:47.520] corroborates all the Shan stuff, too,
[03:17:50.000] you know. So, um
[03:17:52.560] yeah. Uh you have a lot of weird
[03:17:55.120] evidence around like Nazi secret stuff.
[03:17:57.359] Like they might have figured out more
[03:17:58.960] than more than meets the eye. And then
[03:18:00.800] exactly what they figure out, I don't
[03:18:02.239] know. You know, weird. You have um who
[03:18:05.600] is Warner von Braonn's uh why am I
[03:18:07.680] blanking out his name? Warner von
[03:18:09.520] Braun's mentor Oberth. Herman Oberth.
[03:18:11.920] Yeah.
[03:18:12.239] He ends up at Convey Bell uh or sorry no
[03:18:15.520] Convey doing interesting stuff.
[03:18:18.160] Um and then von Braun obviously ends up
[03:18:20.640] here. It's you know start like runs our
[03:18:22.399] space program. He and Arthur Rudolph who
[03:18:24.239] like literally ran the German space you
[03:18:26.080] created the VT rocket like they're like
[03:18:28.080] running like the NASA Saturn program.
[03:18:29.760] Like it's literally like that NASA
[03:18:31.279] Saturn program is like a transplantation
[03:18:32.880] of like the Nazi space program. It's
[03:18:35.439] like pretty fascinating.
[03:18:36.640] The three-way race for resources
[03:18:39.680] after World War II and the immediate
[03:18:41.760] aftermath and the years after that
[03:18:43.439] between Russia,
[03:18:45.120] the United States, and Britain and the
[03:18:47.359] secrets of the world that exist
[03:18:50.479] from that race
[03:18:53.439] is one of the most underreported great
[03:18:55.680] mysteries of our time.
[03:18:57.040] Yeah. You know, it's just the the dep. I
[03:19:01.279] mean, you get into the biological
[03:19:02.560] weapons stuff, too. You get into you
[03:19:05.600] start to wonder like, how did these guys
[03:19:08.000] not have a Manhattan project and not get
[03:19:09.920] to that? And like, and this is pure
[03:19:12.800] crazy speculation on my part, but
[03:19:14.800] sometimes I do wonder. Yeah.
[03:19:16.800] If within those evil, sadistic little
[03:19:19.120] Nazi brains of theirs
[03:19:20.960] apparently weren't that little cuz they
[03:19:22.560] knew some science, but like you get the
[03:19:24.239] point.
[03:19:24.560] Yeah. You know, if like maybe they had
[03:19:27.200] gotten to something like that, like a
[03:19:29.359] nuke,
[03:19:30.160] maybe they had gotten to some insane
[03:19:31.840] biologics.
[03:19:32.800] Yeah.
[03:19:33.200] And they had just enough left of
[03:19:36.000] whatever lack of humanity they they had.
[03:19:39.040] Yeah.
[03:19:39.600] To say
[03:19:41.840] maybe we shouldn't give it to the stash.
[03:19:43.439] That motherfucker's a little crazy.
[03:19:44.800] Yeah. Yeah.
[03:19:45.760] Like may like I I don't know.
[03:19:48.080] But I think about that a lot because the
[03:19:50.080] [ __ ] that they were on to
[03:19:51.600] Yeah. and then the deals they were able
[03:19:53.520] to make and and let's be honest the
[03:19:55.040] Dulles had some
[03:19:57.200] sympathies if you will towards the Nazis
[03:19:59.520] that's very well documented long before
[03:20:01.680] the war and then when the war was
[03:20:03.520] closing off obviously
[03:20:04.960] but like if that was a part of it I
[03:20:07.120] would
[03:20:07.840] oh my god I would love to be a fly on
[03:20:09.520] the wall during some of those years or a
[03:20:11.200] fly on the [ __ ] Humvees as they
[03:20:12.960] pulled up on [ __ ] and you know
[03:20:15.920] tried to figure out what the [ __ ] to do
[03:20:17.439] here cuz there's there is some crazy
[03:20:19.920] stuff
[03:20:20.880] that came Yeah. Well, you also just look
[03:20:23.040] at even more prosaically like
[03:20:26.239] look at the fighter jets like like the
[03:20:28.399] the and then look at the rocket like the
[03:20:30.239] VT rocket was like 20 years ahead of
[03:20:31.920] like anything coming out of the US like
[03:20:34.399] the Nazis. I don't know if this is like
[03:20:36.720] a pro border science argument because
[03:20:39.439] they like there no like moral qualms
[03:20:41.760] about like looking into all sorts of I
[03:20:43.520] think there's like experimental cell
[03:20:44.960] block 9 where they were like doing human
[03:20:46.560] experimentation on like you know you
[03:20:48.399] know Mangala doing like weird twin all
[03:20:50.319] this stuff is so [ __ ] up so messed up
[03:20:52.800] crazy
[03:20:53.279] and so I don't know if
[03:20:55.359] they just made progress because they
[03:20:56.800] were so like psychologically like
[03:20:58.319] unbound and like just down for like
[03:21:01.359] whatever
[03:21:01.840] right
[03:21:03.040] no no it's it's a valid question
[03:21:04.640] but But it is it's it's it's it's
[03:21:06.960] interesting like it it calls up a lot of
[03:21:10.080] questions like h how did they make that
[03:21:11.760] much progress that quickly cuz so so
[03:21:13.920] much came out of that that time.
[03:21:16.399] Yeah.
[03:21:16.640] And you could just say you know like you
[03:21:18.319] know that's what war war creates but the
[03:21:20.640] amount of progress was like
[03:21:22.479] it was next level compared to I mean now
[03:21:24.640] it's Yeah. It's nothing close to that at
[03:21:26.560] least you know as far as like physical
[03:21:28.239] world progress.
[03:21:29.520] [ __ ] yeah. And then, you know, it's
[03:21:31.279] obviously towards like a super ruthless
[03:21:33.200] evil and
[03:21:34.720] that's the start of some weird [ __ ] that
[03:21:36.960] then is used on our end, which is just
[03:21:38.880] like morally that's like one of the
[03:21:40.880] ultimate quandries. But we could go down
[03:21:42.720] a huge rabbit hole with that. I know I
[03:21:44.560] got to get you out of here soon. This
[03:21:45.760] has been awesome today.
[03:21:46.640] Yeah, man.
[03:21:47.200] One last thing before we go. It's come
[03:21:49.120] up intermittently today. Your your Danny
[03:21:51.439] Shehan sit down.
[03:21:52.880] He's going to be coming in here thanks
[03:21:54.239] to you.
[03:21:54.720] Hell yeah.
[03:21:55.200] But like what what
[03:21:56.960] what do you make of that guy? because he
[03:21:58.800] he's been invi to the title of your
[03:22:00.960] YouTube video, he's been involved in
[03:22:02.239] like every American conspiracy and like
[03:22:04.640] you you did such a good job with him,
[03:22:06.239] but you're just sitting there and and
[03:22:08.160] you'd say you'd ask like something
[03:22:09.920] that's getting towards something crazy
[03:22:11.680] where you're like he's not going to say
[03:22:12.880] something on this and he goes, "Well, as
[03:22:14.080] a matter of fact, you know, I was
[03:22:15.439] actually there for that one. I I I know
[03:22:17.120] exactly who killed Kennedy." You know,
[03:22:19.200] like like how do you even respond to
[03:22:20.880] [ __ ] like this? Like is it crazy or do
[03:22:22.880] you It sounds like there's a lot of
[03:22:24.720] evidence he has below stuff.
[03:22:26.160] That's the thing. So I would if I were
[03:22:28.560] to hear what he said 5 years ago or 10
[03:22:32.560] years ago like basic American history
[03:22:35.200] Jesse or whatever coming out of you know
[03:22:37.359] Colombia or whatever American history I
[03:22:39.359] would have been like this dude's crazy
[03:22:40.880] he's off his rocker and then you read a
[03:22:43.279] book like Devil's Chess board.
[03:22:45.279] Yeah.
[03:22:45.760] Uh what was I David Talbot?
[03:22:47.520] David Talbot. That's right. And like you
[03:22:50.319] I spent a I met Oliver Stone once and
[03:22:52.720] like spent a little bit of time with him
[03:22:54.080] and like you know watch that you know
[03:22:56.239] his movies.
[03:22:56.880] Jessica, you're trying to make this
[03:22:57.920] podcast go all night, bro.
[03:22:59.359] My my my my point is is like you you
[03:23:02.640] build up we could go all night. I you
[03:23:05.120] build up this like gestalt view of like
[03:23:07.760] all right like I'm pretty sure like
[03:23:09.680] Dulles like came after Kennedy. Like the
[03:23:12.239] guy hated him. He wanted to scout his
[03:23:13.760] CIA to the wind. He just fired Dulles.
[03:23:15.760] He had the Bay of Pigs. You come out
[03:23:17.680] like not knowing the motive, the
[03:23:19.120] chronology, and the people, but like
[03:23:21.200] knowing that like JFK was probably like
[03:23:23.680] an inside job, you know, and then you
[03:23:25.600] hear
[03:23:26.080] probably
[03:23:27.040] you probably you got to think you got to
[03:23:28.720] think probabilistically, but yeah,
[03:23:30.000] you saying 99.99999%
[03:23:32.319] probably.
[03:23:32.720] That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Yeah. Same
[03:23:34.560] same probability that we're not alone,
[03:23:36.319] right? um you know you think you know
[03:23:39.120] probably and then you meet a guy like
[03:23:40.720] Shihan and again I would disbelieve it
[03:23:43.680] if he weren't plugging in gaps in a
[03:23:47.359] framework that I already I already
[03:23:48.720] basically believe in but he's like you
[03:23:52.160] know it yeah it's it was dulles but it
[03:23:54.319] was like this recommissioned S force you
[03:23:56.640] know his whole nar his narrative is
[03:23:58.000] insane it's this idea that like uh Nixon
[03:24:02.399] um who was you know uh VP under uh
[03:24:05.680] Eisenhower but is also kind of running a
[03:24:07.359] lot of national security for him.
[03:24:09.200] Kind of commissions Hughes, Howard
[03:24:10.880] Hughes to create this s force which is
[03:24:13.680] this like you know team of assassins to
[03:24:15.920] kill Fidel Castro and Shaavara.
[03:24:18.720] And they brought in the mob too. They
[03:24:20.080] brought in Roselli and Gianana.
[03:24:21.920] Exactly. Trafocante, all these people
[03:24:24.080] who like are expedient allies cuz they,
[03:24:26.239] you know, want the Batista drug run, you
[03:24:28.640] know, back up and running or whatever.
[03:24:30.479] And then um uh this S force gets like
[03:24:34.640] kind of sunseted and then like rolled up
[03:24:36.960] into these other operations mongoose and
[03:24:40.080] Fox something I don't know whatever and
[03:24:42.479] then when Dulles gets fired uh by JFK he
[03:24:48.640] retreats back to the Brown brothers
[03:24:50.080] Haramman which is the investment firm
[03:24:51.600] that like sort of formed the CIA.
[03:24:53.600] Y
[03:24:54.080] and he then calls the shot that like the
[03:24:56.160] S force is going to get recommissioned.
[03:24:57.840] Sleeper cell. Let's go.
[03:24:59.120] And let's go. And then and to take out
[03:25:00.960] JFK and he like uh Danny mentions the
[03:25:04.800] name of the guy that he thinks
[03:25:07.439] Ricardo. He goes Yeah. Ricardo. No, this
[03:25:10.239] guy Morales.
[03:25:12.160] Um uh um they called him Roger Morales.
[03:25:16.319] Ricardo Moral. I don't know. Um
[03:25:18.640] but it's it's it's wild. And so again, I
[03:25:20.880] would I would not believe it if it
[03:25:22.399] weren't like so in line with my prior
[03:25:26.000] understanding of what had happened,
[03:25:27.520] which is that, you know, come on. Like
[03:25:29.359] it's like you have all these things like
[03:25:30.640] the magic bullet, the idea that like
[03:25:32.720] Jolly West, like MK Ultra, the like Jack
[03:25:35.359] Ruby right afterwards. Like you
[03:25:37.120] literally can look at the JFK thing for
[03:25:38.960] like five hours and be like, I think
[03:25:41.040] there's some weird [ __ ] here, you know?
[03:25:42.880] Oh, yeah.
[03:25:43.439] Um, so yeah, it's wild, man. I She's
[03:25:46.160] like a he's like a national treasure. I
[03:25:47.920] don't understand how after that
[03:25:49.920] interview I I asked I was like dude how
[03:25:52.160] are you alive and he was like
[03:25:54.080] well you know Jesse
[03:25:55.200] he was like you can't be paranoid and
[03:25:57.200] you got to just do your thing. I mean I
[03:25:59.200] don't know
[03:25:59.439] you going to kill this hair.
[03:26:00.640] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's a
[03:26:02.000] little Yoda hair. Yeah.
[03:26:03.760] Oh my god. I can't wait to do that.
[03:26:05.439] He's the best man. You're going to have
[03:26:06.560] an awesome time with him and Yeah. I'm
[03:26:08.319] fired up. You get to pick his brain.
[03:26:10.479] He's the best.
[03:26:11.200] And he reps Lou Alzando in the past. You
[03:26:14.000] rep Stephven Greer. He was like early in
[03:26:16.960] the '9s, I think, like into UFO
[03:26:19.520] litigation somehow.
[03:26:20.880] Well, he
[03:26:21.439] always ends up somewhere.
[03:26:22.640] Yeah, he's like Zelic or something. He's
[03:26:24.640] always like in
[03:26:25.359] the Forest Gump of law.
[03:26:26.479] He's look he's literally Forest Gump of
[03:26:28.319] like American history and in the most
[03:26:30.560] interesting like it's crazy like Yeah.
[03:26:33.120] It's like And then James McCord hit me
[03:26:35.200] up after Watergate and like I
[03:26:36.960] represented him like what?
[03:26:38.800] Yeah.
[03:26:39.520] At Dunkin Donuts, as a matter of fact.
[03:26:41.200] Yeah. It's it's wild, man. He's uh he's
[03:26:44.399] funny and he I don't know how he pieces
[03:26:46.399] all this stuff together. He has an JFK
[03:26:48.160] infographic that will
[03:26:50.160] literally blow your mind. It's like
[03:26:52.319] you'll come out more confused than like
[03:26:55.279] it's like the amount of names and like
[03:26:57.200] it's like a web of He's like, "Oh, just
[03:26:59.120] look at my infographic." And I look at
[03:27:00.560] it and I'm like, "Am I supposed to
[03:27:01.840] understand this dude?" Like the
[03:27:03.120] infographics are supposed to be like,
[03:27:04.640] you know, four or five boxes and like
[03:27:07.120] you know, it's like it was like a
[03:27:08.319] hundred different things. I was I was
[03:27:10.000] dying of laughter. It was. But
[03:27:11.840] well, we we we'll have fun. I'm sure
[03:27:13.359] that'll come up. He did he did a really
[03:27:15.040] good podcast with my buddy Danny Jones
[03:27:17.200] earlier this year, too. Like the guy is
[03:27:18.800] just gold. So,
[03:27:19.680] yeah,
[03:27:20.080] it'll be great. But
[03:27:21.439] listen, man. This is the first of what I
[03:27:23.040] hope is many podcasts on here.
[03:27:24.399] Hell yeah, man. I'd love to come back,
[03:27:26.239] dude. You are better than build. This is
[03:27:28.239] this is like this has been incredible.
[03:27:30.239] There's going to be a Patreon episode
[03:27:31.600] from somewhere within here, too, where
[03:27:33.120] we went off topic for like 40 minutes or
[03:27:35.359] something like that. So people can hit
[03:27:36.640] that link in description, but we'll have
[03:27:38.640] your channel down there.
[03:27:40.160] Everyone, go check out the videos.
[03:27:41.520] They're so good. They're so well
[03:27:42.800] produced. Love what you're doing. And
[03:27:45.120] thanks for going through all of it
[03:27:46.239] today, man.
[03:27:46.720] I love what you're doing. Appreciate you
[03:27:48.160] having me. Thank you, brother.
[03:27:49.040] Awesome.
[03:27:49.520] All right, everybody else, you know what
[03:27:50.800] it is. Give it a thought. Get back to
[03:27:52.319] me. Peace.
[03:27:53.359] Thank you guys for watching the episode.
[03:27:54.960] Before you leave, please be sure to hit
[03:27:56.560] that subscribe button and smash that
[03:27:58.160] like button on the video. It's a huge
[03:27:59.600] help. And also, if you're over on
[03:28:01.200] Instagram, be sure to follow the show,
[03:28:03.359] Julian Dory Podcast or also on my
[03:28:06.000] personal page, Julian Dory. Both links
[03:28:08.800] are in the description below. Finally,
[03:28:10.640] if you'd like to catch up on our latest
[03:28:12.319] episodes, use the Julian Dory podcast
[03:28:14.720] playlist link in the description below.
[03:28:16.800] Thank you.

Backlinks (2)