Raw capture
From Cold War Counterintelligence to Project Star Gate with Bill Ray
From Cold War Counterintelligence to Project Star Gate with Bill Ray
- Source: Spycraft 101, episode 208, YouTube
- Speakers: Justin Black and William G. "Bill" Ray
- Published: 2025-09-28
- Runtime: 1:17:23
- URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAiHMizDeC4
- Audio: 4,642.505 seconds, 41,223,156 bytes, SHA-256
08da310c9a668e75a3361a59382c6c8fdfb299dcfe57b43a0ec880516e4d2865 - Transcription: FreeTranscribe.org production pipeline, submitted through
/code/transcribeon 2026-09-09. NVIDIA Parakeet TDT 0.6B v3 revision7c35754d166cca382ad1e53e68b01e7c575f3a1d, model-weight SHA-2563cbdc85877e668ca7b82d0d56770eb1fac76691f55d6b97545e8d61ca588d10d, artifact schema 2. - Diarization: pyannote Community-1 revision
3533c8cf8e369892e6b79ff1bf80f7b0286a54eereturned three anonymous speaker clusters. Exact production timing and diarization remain in/code/transcribe/bill-ray-spycraft101-2025-09-28-production.segments.json. - Transcript body: complete English YouTube captions retrieved on 2026-09-09 and compared against the production transcript. The two versions contain no material disagreement; the caption body preserves timestamps and one short passage omitted by the production recognition. Both versions and the audio are retained under
/code/transcribe/bill-ray-spycraft101-2025-09-28-*. - Sourced: 2026-09-09
- Analysis: ../../sources/william-g-bill-ray
This is an automated caption transcript and may contain errors in names, acronyms, numbers, and punctuation. Consult the recording and retained production artifacts before quoting.
TL;DW
Ray gives his most recent long account of a federal career spanning Army intelligence, NATO counterintelligence, White Sands, Iraq, Kuwait, and Afghanistan, then revisits his Fort Meade remote-viewing service and command. He repeats the missing Red Book's 50% "exceptionally high value" claim, the Gulf of San Matias session, and a counterintelligence case in which his team identified a foreign general who admitted contact with the KGB but was not publicly prosecuted. He distinguishes what he personally observed from stories told by colleagues, describes extended remote viewing as an altered state he learned informally, and says his current teaching is limited to friends rather than a paid business.
[00:00:01.439] This is the Spycraft 101 podcast.
[00:00:05.359] Welcome to your clandestine classroom.
[00:00:12.800] This is episode number 208 of the
[00:00:14.719] Spycraft 101 podcast. My guest today is
[00:00:17.520] William Bill Ray. Bill is a retired Army
[00:00:20.400] major and a Department of Defense
[00:00:22.080] civilian with more than 50 years of
[00:00:24.160] service as an intelligence and counter
[00:00:26.160] intelligence officer, including 20 years
[00:00:28.320] in Europe. During his career, he spent
[00:00:30.720] over three and a half years as a remote
[00:00:32.640] viewer at Fort me, including as the unit
[00:00:35.040] commander from 1985 1987, along with my
[00:00:38.399] previous podcast guest, Dr. Paul Smith,
[00:00:40.480] from episode 2011. I invited Bill onto
[00:00:43.680] the podcast to hear about his decades in
[00:00:45.280] counter intelligence both during and
[00:00:46.960] after the Cold War and his experiences
[00:00:49.039] as a remote viewer with Project
[00:00:50.480] Stargate. By the way, if you're looking
[00:00:52.640] for a new way to get friends and family
[00:00:54.399] as interested in history as you are, or
[00:00:56.719] if you want to learn something new and
[00:00:58.079] unexpected every month, then make sure
[00:01:00.000] to check out History by Mail. Every
[00:01:02.239] month, History by Mail will send you
[00:01:03.840] reproductions of famous and influential
[00:01:05.439] historical documents from American
[00:01:06.960] history. Accompanying the documents
[00:01:08.720] themselves are articles which put them
[00:01:10.400] in the context of their times and help
[00:01:12.240] you understand the impact they had on
[00:01:14.000] the course of American life. The topics
[00:01:16.240] are widely varied, so you're always
[00:01:17.840] learning something new across themes
[00:01:19.520] that include historic inventions,
[00:01:21.280] American wars, and foreign diplomatic
[00:01:23.439] relations. I'm really enjoying my own
[00:01:25.439] subscription because it's opened my eyes
[00:01:26.880] to historic events I knew nothing about.
[00:01:29.680] You can subscribe for yourself or gift a
[00:01:32.159] subscription at historybym.com for as
[00:01:34.400] little as $6.50 a month. Just click the
[00:01:37.119] link in the show notes of this episode
[00:01:38.479] and use the discount code Justin10 for a
[00:01:41.119] permanent 10% off your subscription.
[00:01:43.360] Bill, thank you for being here. Oh,
[00:01:45.200] thank you for having me, Justin. Very
[00:01:46.880] excited.
[00:01:47.280] >> Of course. Of course. I've been hoping
[00:01:48.880] for the chance to talk to you for a long
[00:01:50.320] time. So, I'm finally glad that Paul was
[00:01:52.720] able to put us in touch after he and I
[00:01:54.399] spoke.
[00:01:55.200] >> Oh, I'm excited to uh get this going.
[00:01:59.119] >> Great. So, I want to go back 50-year
[00:02:01.759] career. That's incredible. Honestly,
[00:02:03.200] going all the way back to the beginning,
[00:02:04.560] what was it that led you to join the
[00:02:06.399] army in the first place?
[00:02:07.520] >> Well, it was strange. It was 66 years
[00:02:10.080] ago. And one day I ended up at the the
[00:02:13.280] meth station in Los Angeles, California.
[00:02:16.720] I've been accused of being an adrenaline
[00:02:18.879] junkie.
[00:02:20.080] >> I I enlisted airborne unassigned, which
[00:02:23.440] was a daring thing to do, but pretty
[00:02:25.360] stupid looking at it.
[00:02:26.720] >> Oh wow.
[00:02:27.200] >> I I ended up in the 101st Airborne at
[00:02:29.599] the time. At the time, I was an airborne
[00:02:31.360] unit. I spent three years there in
[00:02:33.360] Kentucky. Went to Ranger School. That
[00:02:36.239] sounded like a wonderful idea.
[00:02:38.800] It wasn't, but I graduated from there.
[00:02:41.440] Yeah. Strangely enough, in 2013, the uh
[00:02:45.200] last unit I was with was in Afghanistan.
[00:02:47.760] It was the 101st. So, it kind of
[00:02:50.239] sandwiched my career in there between
[00:02:52.480] those
[00:02:53.680] >> two dates.
[00:02:54.400] >> Very cool. Very cool.
[00:02:56.720] >> So, your first enlistment, you were not
[00:02:58.319] intelligence, as you said, just infantry
[00:03:00.000] and paratrooper, right?
[00:03:01.440] >> Yes. Airborne infantry running through
[00:03:03.440] the woods going bang bang. Later on, I
[00:03:06.640] finally figured out being cold, tired,
[00:03:08.800] wet, and hungry all the time wasn't fun,
[00:03:10.800] and I I managed to get into uh Army
[00:03:13.760] intelligence.
[00:03:15.200] >> Okay. So, what was it about that career
[00:03:17.360] field that kind of impressed you to
[00:03:19.040] begin with that made you want to make
[00:03:19.920] the switch?
[00:03:20.560] >> Well, I had a a very good friend from
[00:03:22.959] high school who uh ended up graduating
[00:03:25.920] college and went in as an officer and he
[00:03:29.120] ended up in in CI, counter intelligence.
[00:03:31.920] So, that's where I first heard of it. I
[00:03:33.760] was still on a break from service. I
[00:03:36.400] hadn't decided to go back in yet, though
[00:03:38.640] I was leaning that way.
[00:03:42.959] Okay. Okay. I see. Yeah, it sounds
[00:03:44.400] tanalyzing. Of course, I can see why it
[00:03:46.159] piques the interest of a lot of people
[00:03:48.799] and I'm sure it was completely different
[00:03:50.080] from your previous tour. Was it
[00:03:51.920] difficult? Was there like a a a
[00:03:53.599] difficult like selection process to get
[00:03:55.120] in? I mean, did you have to be a college
[00:03:56.959] graduate to start with or anything like
[00:03:58.319] that? No, I actually uh in ' 68 my two
[00:04:02.480] brothers joined the Marine Corps
[00:04:04.239] together and ended up in Vietnam.
[00:04:07.920] They were both quite a bit younger than
[00:04:10.080] I was and I felt didn't like to see
[00:04:13.200] anybody deployed but if anybody was
[00:04:15.280] deployed I should be there too which
[00:04:17.759] that came back into play later on. So uh
[00:04:21.359] I basically enlisted go back in the army
[00:04:24.320] with the intention of going to Vietnam.
[00:04:26.639] I was an airborne ranger, so I figured
[00:04:28.960] it, you know, be no problem getting me
[00:04:30.960] back in the infantry.
[00:04:33.199] Unfortunately, there was. I ended up in
[00:04:35.120] the signal corps listening to dips and
[00:04:37.840] dots. I I rapidly got out of that and
[00:04:40.880] then ended up in the MP corps, which was
[00:04:43.199] an option at the time. Spent two years
[00:04:45.600] in the MP corps and then volunteered for
[00:04:48.720] counter intelligence. I had to be
[00:04:51.520] recommended by the agent. I was at Fort
[00:04:54.000] Belilvore with the 521st MP company.
[00:04:56.960] Went into DC, took several tests, did
[00:04:59.440] several interviews, got recommended for
[00:05:02.639] MI. That was 1971.
[00:05:05.680] We left Fort Belvore. I was a staff
[00:05:07.759] sergeant at the time and ended up at
[00:05:09.680] Fort Wuka, Arizona going through the
[00:05:12.479] counter intelligence agents course as a
[00:05:15.199] as a staff sergeant.
[00:05:17.120] >> Okay. Okay. I see. And I understand that
[00:05:19.039] you also speak German. So is that
[00:05:20.400] something that you learned after you
[00:05:21.600] became an agent? Yes. After graduating
[00:05:23.840] the course, I was sure I was going to
[00:05:25.600] Vietnam. Instead, they sent me to German
[00:05:28.639] language school. I called a branch and
[00:05:31.360] asked to be sent to Vietnam. And they
[00:05:33.280] said, "No, you German, you're going to
[00:05:35.759] be language qualified." And I said,
[00:05:38.639] "Well, what if I fail?" They said,
[00:05:40.320] "Don't even think about it."
[00:05:43.280] So, I graduated, end up going to uh
[00:05:46.160] Frankfurt, Germany, the 165th Military
[00:05:48.960] Intelligence Battalion. worked out of
[00:05:51.360] the Frankfurt Fairfield office for about
[00:05:53.280] three years. About that time I was
[00:05:56.080] approaching approaching the maximum age
[00:05:58.960] to be an officer. I was 32 32 and a half
[00:06:02.720] which was the cut off to go to OCS.
[00:06:06.160] >> Warrant officer was closed at the time.
[00:06:08.160] So I uh volunteered for for officer
[00:06:11.520] candidate school and made it. They sent
[00:06:14.160] me to uh Fort Benning to go through
[00:06:16.400] infantry officers candidate school. I
[00:06:19.199] was almost 33. The next oldest guy in my
[00:06:23.039] class was 27. Halfway through the the
[00:06:26.400] course, they dropped the age down to 26.
[00:06:29.520] So, I ended up being the oldest
[00:06:31.440] lieutenant captain, a major in the
[00:06:33.280] military eventually in the army. Yes.
[00:06:36.639] >> Wow. Wow. Wow. That's unique. Certainly.
[00:06:39.680] >> So, did you go back to Germany then as
[00:06:42.800] an officer and as a counter intelligence
[00:06:44.240] agent after that? I kind of thought
[00:06:45.759] that's what I'd be doing, but I ended up
[00:06:48.240] at I had to go through some basic
[00:06:50.000] courses as an officer, which I'd already
[00:06:52.240] attended as a sergeant. So, I ended up
[00:06:55.520] back at Fort Wuka. They recruited me to
[00:06:58.560] stay there. So, as a second lieutenant,
[00:07:01.039] I stayed at Fort Wuka teaching army
[00:07:03.199] intelligence for three years to a lot of
[00:07:05.440] people who I was older then, but they
[00:07:08.319] were senior in grade to me.
[00:07:11.599] >> Okay. Okay. I see.
[00:07:13.680] Yeah, that sounds like a lot of fun.
[00:07:15.039] Honestly, teaching at the the
[00:07:16.240] schoolhouse itself.
[00:07:17.280] >> Yes.
[00:07:17.759] >> Did you wind up back in like a a field
[00:07:20.400] office or something like that after that
[00:07:21.759] assignment?
[00:07:22.319] >> Yes. After 77, I uh received orders back
[00:07:25.759] to the 66 MI group in Munich and I ended
[00:07:29.039] up for a year at the headquarters.
[00:07:31.680] About that time, the command slot up in
[00:07:34.000] Augsburg opened up. That was the the CI
[00:07:36.639] field office supporting seven core
[00:07:38.800] artillery, the largest skiff since the
[00:07:42.000] department information facility in
[00:07:44.080] Augsburg and also about the whole
[00:07:46.720] western half of barbaria. Went there for
[00:07:49.680] three years. While I was there, I got
[00:07:52.880] back to school going nights. I managed
[00:07:55.199] to finally get my my bachelor's degree.
[00:07:58.800] I think I was 39 years old and also got
[00:08:02.400] my master's degree two years later. So
[00:08:04.960] it was a good assignment for education
[00:08:06.960] for me and then I went back to the uh
[00:08:10.000] Fort Wuka to go through the officers
[00:08:12.479] advance course.
[00:08:14.240] >> H thank just one school after another
[00:08:16.720] for you. It sounds like my gosh I'm
[00:08:18.720] overly educated.
[00:08:21.520] So, I was wondering, you know, as a
[00:08:23.599] German-speaking counter intelligence
[00:08:25.520] agent in Germany in the 70s, was that
[00:08:27.440] like a very high demand skill or were
[00:08:29.199] you in high demand just for your for
[00:08:31.120] your resume almost at that time, like in
[00:08:32.959] Augsburg or in Munich when you were
[00:08:34.320] there?
[00:08:34.800] >> Yes, actually there were quite a few MI
[00:08:37.440] personnel, both sergeants and officers,
[00:08:39.680] who who spoke German. There were times
[00:08:41.680] where I'd be called in to translate to a
[00:08:44.080] German general something that was going
[00:08:45.839] on or we'd be all providing real world
[00:08:48.720] counter intelligence support to some
[00:08:50.959] exercise reforge or whatever and end up
[00:08:54.080] having to translate what tactics were
[00:08:56.399] going on and and that kind of thing.
[00:08:58.959] Yes.
[00:08:59.440] >> Okay. Okay. I see. So you were you were
[00:09:01.760] using the language skills in like a
[00:09:03.680] liaison role rather than like for
[00:09:05.680] example like you know human intelligence
[00:09:07.200] like speaking with a
[00:09:08.080] >> well I was running sources German
[00:09:10.320] sources so uh yes I was using it there
[00:09:12.720] too but
[00:09:13.200] >> okay
[00:09:13.760] >> kind of a impromptu uh lison if you will
[00:09:17.040] I'd just be passing through and somebody
[00:09:18.959] would say you're you know you're a
[00:09:21.120] German spreer would you need to
[00:09:23.440] translate this and I go and do that
[00:09:26.240] >> interesting this is the late 70s early
[00:09:29.040] 80s in Germany It's the days of the Bram
[00:09:31.760] Minhoff gang, the Rodea Bata, the Rosa
[00:09:35.120] Bata, the RAF and this was a time of a
[00:09:39.440] lot of counterterrorism going on which
[00:09:41.920] was very interesting. Also, the whole
[00:09:45.279] structure of intelligence changed from
[00:09:48.720] 74 to 80. We had the the privacy act of
[00:09:51.680] 1974 came in limiting what we could do.
[00:09:55.440] >> And then uh when President Carter came
[00:09:57.680] in, he also cut back a a lot of the
[00:10:00.560] options that we could do.
[00:10:04.000] >> Okay. Okay. Yeah. I know like on a on a
[00:10:06.800] federal scale as well. I know about like
[00:10:08.080] the the church committee hearings, you
[00:10:09.279] know, that were going on that
[00:10:10.880] >> I don't know if that had any effect on
[00:10:12.080] the on the army at the time, but clearly
[00:10:14.000] on the intelligence
[00:10:14.880] >> it had a huge effect in Europe and I'm
[00:10:17.040] I'm also sure in Asia
[00:10:19.600] >> people became very lery about approving
[00:10:22.320] any kind of operations. It was a
[00:10:24.720] frustrating time. Yeah, I can I can see
[00:10:27.279] that when you're watching people sweat
[00:10:28.399] it out, you know, right in front of
[00:10:29.519] Congress like that on on TV every night,
[00:10:31.680] you know, for weeks at a time, that can
[00:10:33.040] that can make someone very riskaverse,
[00:10:34.959] you know. Certainly,
[00:10:35.839] >> we we said there was a lot going on.
[00:10:37.920] >> Yep.
[00:10:39.040] >> I was at Flat Cassern in Augsburg. We
[00:10:41.839] had a Bea Bakan Sly terrorist in
[00:10:45.120] Augsburg at the time. She's female
[00:10:47.360] Baobab Bakton Bay's watch. So the
[00:10:50.800] Germans had a uh open case on her and
[00:10:54.320] anytime they saw her they were
[00:10:56.399] authorized to surveil her but they had
[00:10:58.959] problems because she was coming on US
[00:11:01.120] concerns talking to US soldiers.
[00:11:04.079] >> Oh wow.
[00:11:04.560] >> So they they asked you know if we see
[00:11:06.800] her heading towards a concern which is a
[00:11:09.680] post if we call ahead could you guys
[00:11:12.560] pick up surveillance and I I assured
[00:11:14.800] them we could which was probably way
[00:11:17.680] above my pay grade.
[00:11:19.920] But it turns out that I had to have
[00:11:22.160] permission from US Army Europe all the
[00:11:24.480] way up in H Highidleberg. I submitted
[00:11:26.079] the request and eight months later we
[00:11:29.760] had not received permission to surveil
[00:11:32.079] this terrorist who was coming on a US
[00:11:34.240] base.
[00:11:34.959] >> Oh my gosh, that's all right. That's a
[00:11:36.720] little much.
[00:11:37.279] >> Yeah, we uh in fact one Sunday I was in
[00:11:39.760] catching up on work and as I was leaving
[00:11:41.920] work, her car passed me. So I swung
[00:11:45.839] around to see where she was going and
[00:11:48.399] went back to the office and reported it
[00:11:50.720] up right away. And the question was, why
[00:11:53.920] was I on post on Sunday? Was I following
[00:11:56.480] her? So they weren't concerned about a
[00:11:58.880] terrorist on the post. They were
[00:12:00.320] concerned about an army captain using
[00:12:02.720] initiative, I guess.
[00:12:03.920] >> Wow, that's incredible. I'm I'm not
[00:12:05.920] familiar with her. Had she already
[00:12:07.600] committed violent acts or was she just
[00:12:09.360] like associating with other people in
[00:12:11.519] that group at that point?
[00:12:12.880] >> Yes. And I'm trying to come up with the
[00:12:14.800] the names of the terrorist groups of of
[00:12:18.160] the two leaders, one male, one female.
[00:12:20.720] The female had traveled using her
[00:12:22.720] passport. She was basically support
[00:12:25.519] personnel. She had lost four passports
[00:12:29.040] which she passed to the the female
[00:12:31.200] terrorists.
[00:12:32.000] >> Oh, I
[00:12:32.560] >> we were in Barbaria, which is where the
[00:12:34.639] terrorists were hanging out at at the
[00:12:36.639] time, but they weren't conducting
[00:12:38.480] operations. They were conducting
[00:12:40.480] operations farther north and Hessa and
[00:12:42.959] North Ryan was fight west was failing
[00:12:45.920] but they were staying down in barbaria
[00:12:48.959] and boden verdenberg the the other
[00:12:51.360] southern German state.
[00:12:53.680] >> H wow that's that's incredible to me
[00:12:55.839] that she would just be passing through
[00:12:57.760] post and you couldn't do anything like
[00:12:59.360] whoa where's your eight levels of
[00:13:00.560] permission before you find out what
[00:13:02.480] she's up to. That's that's amazing. Was
[00:13:04.880] that a response to the privacy act and
[00:13:07.279] and church committee and that sort of
[00:13:08.399] thing or were they normally you know
[00:13:09.680] that concerned about you know paperwork
[00:13:11.120] ahead of time? They had not been we had
[00:13:13.920] a pretty much free reign and to be to be
[00:13:16.560] honest the army had kind of abused that
[00:13:19.519] >> uh
[00:13:19.760] >> in the mid70s we were listening to phone
[00:13:22.320] calls of Americans with the help of the
[00:13:24.720] Germans that all broke and a lot of the
[00:13:28.240] the problem I I don't think was related
[00:13:33.200] to to the factual issues but the powers
[00:13:37.519] that be the colonels were were loath to
[00:13:39.920] go ahead and improve
[00:13:41.519] to approve anything because they were
[00:13:43.600] afraid with a liberal government they
[00:13:45.600] they they would get in trouble which I
[00:13:47.600] don't think I never heard of anybody
[00:13:49.519] getting in trouble but it was a fear on
[00:13:52.480] their part. We had several assets in
[00:13:55.120] Augsburg that that were aware of of the
[00:13:59.279] restraints on army intelligence and and
[00:14:02.079] basically when somebody said I'm going
[00:14:03.760] to report you they would said go ahead
[00:14:06.399] >> you can't do anything.
[00:14:09.440] Golly.
[00:14:10.160] >> Yeah,
[00:14:10.480] >> that's amazing. One hand tie behind your
[00:14:12.240] back. I mean, I do understand like you
[00:14:13.440] said that there were some abuses of
[00:14:15.040] rights that came before that which kind
[00:14:16.320] of led to this, but still there's, you
[00:14:18.240] know, that's a that's a a close-end
[00:14:19.920] target there as a as a known terrorist,
[00:14:22.000] you know, traversing an army base.
[00:14:23.199] That's amazing.
[00:14:24.399] >> Yes, it was.
[00:14:25.440] >> Wow. So, besides this one, are there any
[00:14:27.519] other like major investigations or
[00:14:29.600] operations that are like well known
[00:14:31.120] publicly now that you were involved in
[00:14:32.880] during this time? During this time we
[00:14:34.959] made several arrests basically of
[00:14:37.040] Germans and turned and they were in
[00:14:39.199] bilateral operations with the Maday
[00:14:42.399] military shaper the German military
[00:14:45.440] intelligence. We work very closely with
[00:14:48.240] them. So there were probably arrests
[00:14:51.519] that were more well known in Germany
[00:14:53.839] than back in the states here. And the
[00:14:56.320] German court system is pretty lenient on
[00:14:59.120] on espionage cases but two or threeear
[00:15:02.560] sentences. usually. So,
[00:15:04.639] >> really interesting.
[00:15:06.880] >> Yeah. Not not to get off on a tangent
[00:15:08.399] really, but I'm always like consistently
[00:15:10.560] surprised by sentencing because I cover,
[00:15:14.000] you know, a lot of different espionage
[00:15:15.120] cases here on the podcast and and
[00:15:16.720] writing and, you know, once in a while
[00:15:18.320] somebody will get 35 years and another
[00:15:19.839] person will get four and a half years or
[00:15:21.519] something. And it's there's not a whole
[00:15:23.360] lot of rhyme and and rhythm to it from
[00:15:25.040] what I can see. Honestly, I'd love to
[00:15:26.320] talk to like a a prosecuting attorney,
[00:15:28.240] you know, one day from National Security
[00:15:29.519] Division of DOJ or something like that
[00:15:31.440] one day to to get a handle on that.
[00:15:33.360] >> Yep. It's it's my understanding that
[00:15:35.199] most espionage cases don't come to
[00:15:37.279] trial. They're they're resolved before
[00:15:39.199] that. If we can get a damage assessment,
[00:15:42.560] it it might be worth
[00:15:45.120] >> worth more than getting a prosecution.
[00:15:47.120] or if we can start passing false
[00:15:49.279] information back to the espionage agent,
[00:15:51.759] then the the bad guys won't know when
[00:15:53.839] the information turned bad. So there a
[00:15:56.959] lot of times the the not only don't the
[00:15:59.360] cases come to light, they don't come to
[00:16:01.759] trial.
[00:16:02.639] >> Oh, sure. True. Yeah. Prosecution is not
[00:16:04.320] the only tool, you know, that's
[00:16:05.759] appropriate every time, of course.
[00:16:07.759] >> But I also like I've noticed so many
[00:16:09.279] times very few people actually are sent
[00:16:11.920] or or found guilty or sentenced for
[00:16:14.480] espionage itself. Often times it seems
[00:16:16.240] to be like failure to register as a
[00:16:17.680] foreign agent or some related charge
[00:16:19.920] like that.
[00:16:20.560] >> It's seems like espionage is tough to
[00:16:22.079] make stick sometimes.
[00:16:23.120] >> Yep. Well, it's it it's more of a sure
[00:16:25.440] thing.
[00:16:26.480] >> Yeah.
[00:16:27.120] >> Take the sure conviction or get them to
[00:16:29.600] plead to a lesser charge. Then you won't
[00:16:31.680] have to go to trial. And a lot of times
[00:16:33.680] it's we don't want to expose
[00:16:36.639] >> what the information that was that that
[00:16:39.440] was being sold or stolen.
[00:16:42.160] >> Right. Right. Right. Yeah, that makes
[00:16:43.360] sense. And it it does I get the sense
[00:16:45.120] anyway that people get offered these
[00:16:46.800] pretty sweetheart plea deals
[00:16:48.639] specifically so it doesn't go to trial
[00:16:50.560] because a lot of guys plead guilty to
[00:16:52.160] stuff that I would you know as a amateur
[00:16:54.399] historian I would love for them to go to
[00:16:55.839] trial because I want to see some
[00:16:56.800] evidence you know that's eventually
[00:16:58.160] comes into the public view but that
[00:16:59.759] often does not happen.
[00:17:00.959] >> Yes. Well the the Ames case is an
[00:17:03.680] example of that.
[00:17:06.240] >> Ames was the the CIA higher up who was
[00:17:09.600] passing information.
[00:17:11.120] >> Mhm. and they cut a deal with him and uh
[00:17:14.240] one of my friends worked on it from the
[00:17:17.199] army side and they they agreed that if
[00:17:20.160] he would pass all the information as
[00:17:22.959] damage control everything he had passed
[00:17:25.280] to the Russians if he would give us all
[00:17:28.720] of that then they would they would not
[00:17:30.960] prosecute his wife who also was involved
[00:17:33.760] they had a 10year-old child
[00:17:35.919] >> and he agreed to that. The kicker was
[00:17:38.799] that Ames was alcoholic and really
[00:17:40.880] couldn't remember much of what he
[00:17:42.400] passed.
[00:17:44.720] >> Oh wow.
[00:17:46.240] >> Wow.
[00:17:47.679] >> Yeah, that's that was smart and I can
[00:17:49.200] understand why he would take that deal.
[00:17:50.400] But you know, I can see how the the
[00:17:52.320] American people, you know, John Q
[00:17:53.520] public, they're going to feel kind of
[00:17:54.400] let down sometimes by these sentences
[00:17:55.840] like this guy was betrayed our country
[00:17:57.520] and he's going to be out in seven years
[00:17:58.799] or something. You know, that's that's an
[00:18:00.160] understandable reaction.
[00:18:01.039] >> I think he got life, but his wife got
[00:18:03.039] off scot so she could raise the child
[00:18:05.919] which was a Yeah.
[00:18:07.679] Mhm. Yeah.
[00:18:08.720] >> Yeah. A lot of interesting twists and
[00:18:10.160] turns in these in these cases once they
[00:18:11.760] actually result in an arrest and trial
[00:18:14.000] and all that. So, Bill, eventually, of
[00:18:15.760] course, you know, I know that you were
[00:18:17.200] involved in in Stargate or the various
[00:18:19.039] programs under that. So, can you talk
[00:18:20.320] about how that first came to your
[00:18:21.440] attention and what brought you into the
[00:18:22.640] program?
[00:18:23.120] >> Okay. Well, I came back from Germany
[00:18:25.280] from Augsburg in uh 1981
[00:18:29.360] and I ended up going to the advance
[00:18:31.760] course and as I moved into my government
[00:18:35.600] quarters, the person across from me was
[00:18:38.799] Captain Skip Atwater.
[00:18:41.200] Now, Skip had been had worked for me
[00:18:44.000] back in the 74 to 77 time period when I
[00:18:47.919] was teaching at the intelligence school
[00:18:50.559] and he had been one of the insistent
[00:18:52.880] instructors.
[00:18:54.799] Skip was working on his master degree
[00:18:57.679] was a Spanish linguist had been through
[00:19:00.960] the uh debugging course. He was a very
[00:19:04.559] bright young man. He had nine years in
[00:19:07.120] the service. 10 years was the max to be
[00:19:09.919] commissioned at that time. And I I
[00:19:12.160] started harassing him trying to get him
[00:19:14.240] to go to OCS.
[00:19:16.480] And eventually I did. And so Skip went
[00:19:20.080] to OCS. And he came back from after
[00:19:23.280] graduating as a second lieutenant, came
[00:19:25.760] back through the school going through
[00:19:27.200] the same courses that I'd had to go
[00:19:29.200] through after going to OCS. He was
[00:19:32.240] getting ready to go to Fort me to a
[00:19:34.640] operational security assignment, which
[00:19:36.880] is a very boring assignment for a CI
[00:19:39.360] officer.
[00:19:40.000] >> Mhm.
[00:19:40.640] >> And so we got together at a little club
[00:19:42.960] there on we had a last beer together. I
[00:19:46.559] never thought I would see him again. He
[00:19:48.320] was a Spanish linguist. I was a German
[00:19:50.320] linguist. We were probably going
[00:19:52.480] different ways, but he ended up right
[00:19:55.039] across from me in 81. The thing is when
[00:19:59.200] he went to Fort me to be this OBSAC
[00:20:01.360] officer, he read Hell Putoff's book on
[00:20:04.000] on remote viewing, became fascinated by
[00:20:06.320] it and pushed to get that an army unit
[00:20:08.880] involved in that. And he did he got one
[00:20:12.720] and Skip was probably the only person
[00:20:14.880] could who could do that. He had a lot of
[00:20:16.640] out-of- body experiences as a child and
[00:20:19.039] was pretty much read into that kind of
[00:20:21.840] that kind of community. So he's the one
[00:20:24.400] who set up the project at Fort me. When
[00:20:27.360] we got together, it it was a special
[00:20:30.000] access program, SAP. So we couldn't talk
[00:20:33.840] about it. He left. I stayed at Fort
[00:20:36.960] Wuka. I was supposed to go to another
[00:20:40.080] language school, Western European, and
[00:20:42.400] then on to a assignment at some embassy.
[00:20:46.080] and I ended up doing an 18-month tour in
[00:20:48.720] the meantime as the G2 of the 11th
[00:20:51.760] SignArt Brigade.
[00:20:53.840] Along the way, Skip gave me a phone call
[00:20:56.480] and then flew out. Basically showed me
[00:20:58.720] the I think it was 60 Minutes did a tape
[00:21:01.679] on the L put off Russell Tar book and
[00:21:05.520] what they were doing and Skip asked if
[00:21:07.679] I'd be interested and read me on.
[00:21:10.080] Shortly thereafter, Colonel Busby, who
[00:21:12.320] was the project commander at the time,
[00:21:14.320] flew out, took Sandy and I to dinner,
[00:21:16.799] and we talked about it, and we agreed
[00:21:19.200] that that's something we would like to
[00:21:21.200] do. So, January 3rd, 1984, I ended up at
[00:21:25.600] Fort me.
[00:21:27.600] I was the second ranking person there,
[00:21:29.679] right behind Colonel Busby. So, I kind
[00:21:31.440] of functioned not only as a viewer, but
[00:21:34.080] as an executive officer, kind of a a
[00:21:37.600] confidant for Colonel Busby. Shortly
[00:21:39.840] after getting there, we left for San
[00:21:42.080] Francisco for up at SRRI
[00:21:45.280] for two weeks at at Nepello Alto getting
[00:21:48.480] introduced to remote viewing and Engle
[00:21:51.679] Swan. And for the about the next nine
[00:21:54.640] months to a year, we traveled every
[00:21:56.880] other week up to New York to be trained
[00:22:00.400] by Engle. And there were four of us,
[00:22:03.520] myself, Paul Smith, Ed Dames, and
[00:22:06.480] Charlene Shoufeld.
[00:22:08.799] Then there was Tom who traveled on the
[00:22:12.000] other week. So those were the five
[00:22:14.880] people who were trained by Engle Swan.
[00:22:19.120] >> Okay. Okay. Sounds like a very
[00:22:20.400] interesting start there. So there's
[00:22:22.159] Yeah. Clearly like as you said, there's
[00:22:23.600] not any like instruction from the
[00:22:25.600] military in this in this brand new
[00:22:27.919] discipline there. So you were
[00:22:29.360] exclusively learning. Did you feel a lot
[00:22:31.679] of eyes on you right from the beginning?
[00:22:33.120] like did this program have a lot of
[00:22:34.320] visibility or was it like virtually
[00:22:35.840] unknown to higher for ranks to start
[00:22:37.840] with?
[00:22:38.480] >> The the program was a SAP a a special
[00:22:41.840] access program. So the only way you
[00:22:44.080] could know about it was was to be read
[00:22:46.559] on which is sometimes can be difficult
[00:22:49.679] when you're you're collecting
[00:22:51.760] intelligence for other agencies because
[00:22:53.840] they don't know you exist.
[00:22:56.799] >> The people knew we were there. People
[00:23:00.000] knew we were strange, but they didn't
[00:23:03.120] know quite what we did yet.
[00:23:06.080] >> So, uh,
[00:23:06.720] >> sure.
[00:23:07.600] >> It was an interesting time.
[00:23:10.559] >> Yep.
[00:23:11.360] >> I'll bet. So, you mentioned Skip had
[00:23:13.280] some out-of- body experience as a kid.
[00:23:14.799] Did you have any experience with
[00:23:16.240] anything paranormal at all? Like, did
[00:23:17.919] you need a lot of convincing before you
[00:23:19.360] volunteered to begin with?
[00:23:20.559] >> No. No. In fact, I I was a a psychic
[00:23:24.320] rock. There was nothing. Now, my wife
[00:23:28.000] Sandy,
[00:23:29.520] we had a uh a child who was born early
[00:23:32.000] and only lived 3 months and died
[00:23:34.320] >> through the the Catholic church. We
[00:23:36.159] became members of a charismatic prayer
[00:23:39.039] group. And Sandy would have all kinds of
[00:23:41.600] visions and things and all they ever saw
[00:23:43.840] was a brick wall. Sandy had also had a
[00:23:46.799] near-death experience back in 70 where
[00:23:50.400] her gallbladder burst and she almost
[00:23:52.799] died. It was interesting when I was
[00:23:55.200] traveling up to New York with Ingo. In
[00:23:57.200] Engle was writing a book on the Virgin
[00:23:59.039] Mary and Sandy was getting automatic
[00:24:01.919] writing which I would take up to him and
[00:24:03.919] then he would take a message give me a
[00:24:05.840] message to take back to Sandy. But no, I
[00:24:08.640] had absolutely no ability. In fact, I
[00:24:11.840] can remember before my first remote
[00:24:13.760] viewing session, I thought, well, you
[00:24:16.240] know, other people can do this. I know I
[00:24:18.559] believe it, but yeah, maybe I can't. you
[00:24:21.279] know, is that that self-doubt?
[00:24:23.440] Fortunately, I could.
[00:24:25.200] >> Oh, wow. Was it was it harder for you
[00:24:27.200] compared to the other remote viewers
[00:24:29.279] initially, or is this something that
[00:24:30.559] like anybody can cultivate?
[00:24:31.760] >> It's it's something anybody can cope
[00:24:33.520] with. Yeah. Charlene and I finished
[00:24:36.000] stage one training fairly early. Ed
[00:24:38.799] Dames and Paul Smith went back up to New
[00:24:42.000] York for another three or four weeks to
[00:24:44.320] get some more training before they pass.
[00:24:46.480] So, it's it's something anybody can
[00:24:49.679] learn. It's a it's a a skill we all
[00:24:52.159] have. It's like riding a bicycle.
[00:24:54.159] Everybody can ride a bicycle eventually,
[00:24:56.559] but some people do the tour to France
[00:24:58.559] and other people have a hard time
[00:25:00.640] getting from here to the grocery store.
[00:25:03.120] >> Okay. Okay. I see. That's a good
[00:25:04.240] analogy. Okay, understandable. So, how
[00:25:06.080] quickly I know you you you mentioned
[00:25:07.440] this 9-month training period there. How
[00:25:09.360] quickly did you start doing the like
[00:25:11.200] operational sessions and actually
[00:25:12.480] viewing real targets?
[00:25:14.000] >> I think it was about nine months we
[00:25:15.760] started. Yep.
[00:25:17.360] Engel taught a a very specific six-step
[00:25:21.200] method and that progressed from step one
[00:25:24.720] to step six. Obviously I believe the and
[00:25:28.240] that's called controlled remote viewing.
[00:25:30.640] It was but the only hard part in my
[00:25:33.279] opinion is step one and once you get
[00:25:35.279] past that everything kind of just keeps
[00:25:37.600] flowing. There was a second way to work
[00:25:40.799] and that was it's called extended remote
[00:25:43.120] viewing involves achieving an altered
[00:25:46.400] state and then kind of going to the
[00:25:49.919] target. I preferred working ERV. And
[00:25:53.840] once I once I learned how to do that, I
[00:25:56.880] if given a choice and it was up to the
[00:25:58.720] the operations officer, he would pick
[00:26:01.600] which was skip and he would pick how
[00:26:03.679] many people were going to work it and
[00:26:06.240] what technology they would use, CRB or
[00:26:08.640] ERB. Yep. We be I think I became pretty
[00:26:12.080] much operational about the 9-month
[00:26:14.080] period.
[00:26:15.200] >> Okay. Can you talk about the the
[00:26:17.440] conditions that you set for a a session?
[00:26:19.200] Like you in a dark room by yourself or I
[00:26:20.960] mean like a you know sitting at a desk
[00:26:22.559] writing or what exactly?
[00:26:24.159] >> Okay. The two ways to do it and I'll
[00:26:26.799] I'll cover both of them if we have time
[00:26:28.480] here.
[00:26:28.960] >> Sure.
[00:26:29.279] >> Controlled remote viewing. You would go
[00:26:31.279] into a a very gray nondescript room, sit
[00:26:35.520] down, lights are on, the monitor is at
[00:26:38.960] the other end of the table, and he would
[00:26:41.600] give you a geographic coordinate,
[00:26:43.840] longitude and latitude. We eventually
[00:26:46.799] changed that, and we started giving
[00:26:49.120] coded coordinates, and we had no
[00:26:51.039] decrease in in in accuracy. But you
[00:26:53.919] would sit there and you would start with
[00:26:56.320] stage one. You do what's called an
[00:26:58.799] idoggram and then decode it and then
[00:27:01.440] move through the stages.
[00:27:03.760] Once you reach stage four, said that you
[00:27:06.559] were operational and that's I agree with
[00:27:09.840] that. The other way was the extended
[00:27:12.480] remote viewing which involves going into
[00:27:15.039] a darkened room, laying down, getting
[00:27:17.840] comfortable, maybe putting a blanket
[00:27:19.520] over yourself. The monitor would come in
[00:27:21.840] with a little red light on his head so
[00:27:25.279] he could take notes. He'd also have a
[00:27:28.799] plug in his ear and there would be
[00:27:30.880] somebody in the control room, Skip or
[00:27:33.520] sometimes myself, listening in and
[00:27:35.919] directing the monitor where to go next.
[00:27:39.200] And the monitor's job was basically
[00:27:41.200] keeping the the viewer
[00:27:43.840] in the zone, if you will, not going too
[00:27:46.000] high or too low. M and the the monitor
[00:27:49.039] would say okay now he said there's three
[00:27:50.960] buildings there would ask him are they
[00:27:53.520] multi-storied or singlestory and then
[00:27:56.320] then the the person on the outside would
[00:27:58.880] kind of direct the monitor now there
[00:28:01.200] always wasn't a person on the outside
[00:28:03.520] sometimes the monitor would be on his
[00:28:05.360] own and towards the end that became the
[00:28:08.399] standard way we did it but it was at the
[00:28:11.120] time we had two secretaries at the
[00:28:13.200] project out of the 12 people we had And
[00:28:17.440] we needed two secretaries to decode what
[00:28:20.320] the what the viewer was saying in this
[00:28:22.640] altered state. It was kind of like he
[00:28:24.799] had a mouthful of oatmeal and then put
[00:28:26.799] some marbles in and was trying to talk.
[00:28:29.360] So it was Yeah. A little hard to
[00:28:31.600] understand them.
[00:28:32.799] >> Wow. Okay. Very interesting. And did
[00:28:35.039] these last a few minutes or a few hours?
[00:28:37.120] Typically
[00:28:37.919] >> they lasted I would say an hour to an
[00:28:40.240] hour and a half. I did one session that
[00:28:42.720] went three hours and that that's a long
[00:28:45.039] time to
[00:28:46.480] >> be on what we call the signal line. It's
[00:28:48.799] it's it's tiring. It it does take a lot
[00:28:51.279] out of you.
[00:28:52.240] >> Okay. Okay. I see. Yeah. It sounds like
[00:28:53.440] it could be physically draining. Once
[00:28:55.039] you come back from and once you complete
[00:28:56.640] the session, do you recall everything
[00:28:58.159] that happened? Like are you fully
[00:28:59.279] cognizant of the whole experience
[00:29:00.960] afterwards?
[00:29:01.919] >> Yes. Or pretty much. Sometimes you have
[00:29:04.080] to be coaxed by when you're doing the
[00:29:06.399] summary. the monitor will say, "Well,
[00:29:08.159] you know, you you talked about that that
[00:29:10.640] chamber where they had this devices and
[00:29:13.440] oh, yeah, but the advantage of extended
[00:29:17.120] remote viewing or control remote viewing
[00:29:19.919] over out of body experience is that
[00:29:23.360] while you're there, you can report back.
[00:29:26.159] If you're doing an OBBE, out of body
[00:29:28.399] experience, you're there and
[00:29:32.399] until you come back to your body,
[00:29:34.480] there's no reporting going on. So, you
[00:29:36.559] have to remember what you did. Plus,
[00:29:38.799] there's no way the monitor or anybody
[00:29:40.880] else can ask you to clarify something or
[00:29:44.399] go in more detail on a certain part of
[00:29:46.640] the target.
[00:29:47.679] >> H Okay. Interesting. I'm curious because
[00:29:50.799] this was so new for the army. Were there
[00:29:54.000] any like like quantifiable milestones
[00:29:56.559] that you were expected to hit? Like what
[00:29:58.320] how was success measured for your unit
[00:30:00.880] while you were there? Or was there any
[00:30:03.039] expectation? Really?
[00:30:04.320] >> That's interesting.
[00:30:06.960] I'm trying to phrase this very
[00:30:08.720] carefully. When Brian Busby left in '
[00:30:11.679] 85, I took over as the commander.
[00:30:15.679] We were
[00:30:18.480] more alone than any other unit I've ever
[00:30:21.760] been in. Intelligence unit.
[00:30:24.559] >> We we would go brief the the the seniors
[00:30:29.360] guy on what we were doing. They didn't
[00:30:31.840] ask us to come brief them. we would go
[00:30:35.039] brief. Okay, we're working on on this
[00:30:37.520] case for the CIA and we have this case
[00:30:40.399] for the FBI and this one for the
[00:30:42.320] National Security Council and this one's
[00:30:45.279] twothirds done. But nobody knew that
[00:30:48.640] unless we went and told them it was it
[00:30:50.720] was kind of a you know a lot of freedom.
[00:30:54.320] Mhm.
[00:30:54.640] >> But the
[00:30:56.799] the thing is when I was commander, I I
[00:30:59.679] kept the requirements for accepting a
[00:31:02.159] case from an agency the same as if we
[00:31:05.360] were doing a a a a physical
[00:31:08.000] investigation, a surveillance or
[00:31:09.840] whatever. We needed a case number.
[00:31:13.520] >> It had to be a case number. It had to be
[00:31:15.440] an open case, and we would go ahead and
[00:31:18.000] work with you.
[00:31:19.520] >> Okay. Okay. Very cool. I can understand
[00:31:21.520] that. So you're you're meeting a would
[00:31:23.440] you describe as like meeting a client's
[00:31:24.880] needs? Is that accurate kind of?
[00:31:26.799] >> Yes. And we did work for everybody else.
[00:31:29.600] Yeah. Yeah.
[00:31:30.559] >> Okay. Okay.
[00:31:31.360] >> Including the army of course but towards
[00:31:33.200] the end a lot of well towards the time
[00:31:36.240] we left the army there we were doing a
[00:31:38.640] lot of work for for a lot of other
[00:31:40.880] agencies.
[00:31:43.200] >> H that's interesting. So I was the you
[00:31:45.679] you mentioned it was a special access
[00:31:46.960] program. So was word getting out to the
[00:31:48.799] appropriate people then over time
[00:31:50.640] >> we would go out and brief people and we
[00:31:52.960] would bring the book and yep they had to
[00:31:55.360] sign that they were willing to take a
[00:31:57.840] polygraph
[00:31:59.039] >> and if that was the case then we could
[00:32:00.720] read them on. So we were trying to
[00:32:03.600] expand it. We had points of contact at
[00:32:06.320] the CIA and national security council
[00:32:08.880] people who had been read on. Shortly
[00:32:11.600] after I took over, we ended up at DIA.
[00:32:15.440] Jack Verona, who was the lead scientist
[00:32:18.000] in the Department of Defense and the
[00:32:19.760] head of science and technology for DIA,
[00:32:23.039] would have a monthly meeting down the
[00:32:25.360] Pentagon where he and I would go down.
[00:32:29.039] The Air Force thought we were doing the
[00:32:31.600] devil's work, I think. But the several
[00:32:34.399] army units would be there, general
[00:32:36.080] officers, NSA, CIA, NSC would all send
[00:32:40.640] representatives and then I would brief
[00:32:43.200] on what we did the previous month and
[00:32:46.559] then we could take tasking. The problem
[00:32:49.279] was if if I heard the tasking then I
[00:32:52.559] could not work the session.
[00:32:55.200] >> Oh yeah. The key, one of the key rules
[00:32:57.760] is the the viewer has to be blind. You
[00:33:01.279] can't know what you're going after,
[00:33:02.720] otherwise imagination will take over.
[00:33:05.679] >> Sure. Sure. Sure.
[00:33:06.559] >> You know, I get asked, "Bill, could you
[00:33:08.000] guys do this?" And I would say, "Well,
[00:33:09.840] my team can, but I can't now." But I
[00:33:12.640] would try to leave and Jack would take
[00:33:14.320] in these things and then them up.
[00:33:16.640] >> I see. Okay. Okay. Yeah, that makes
[00:33:18.480] perfect sense to to keep the the
[00:33:19.919] environment, I guess, sterile. Yes. For
[00:33:21.440] them. I I am curious. I know one famous
[00:33:23.519] case that the unit was involved in was
[00:33:25.200] the the kidnapping of General Doer, I
[00:33:27.360] believe it was. Were you there at that
[00:33:28.880] time when that occur?
[00:33:29.679] >> No, I wasn't. But I I've talked to the
[00:33:31.600] people involved in it. And
[00:33:34.320] unfortunately, we really weren't
[00:33:36.159] involved in the the kidnapping. We were
[00:33:39.519] still working for the army at the time.
[00:33:42.320] And our
[00:33:44.159] the premier remote viewer that time was
[00:33:46.799] Joe McMonicle who worked at extended
[00:33:49.279] remote viewing not the control type. It
[00:33:52.559] came down when when Doser got captured.
[00:33:56.080] Jack Verona got two civilian
[00:34:00.159] viewers who I had met and was
[00:34:03.840] unimpressed by. But he got these two, at
[00:34:07.600] least two, I think there may have been
[00:34:09.200] more, but they flew into Italy,
[00:34:12.720] not going through customs, and they were
[00:34:15.919] trying to find out where Doser was. In
[00:34:18.240] the meantime, we've worked Joe back at
[00:34:21.040] the uh project.
[00:34:23.040] Jo found Dozer fairly easy, but this is
[00:34:27.040] a search problem. It's one thing that
[00:34:29.119] remote viewing does not do well because
[00:34:31.919] you can find somebody, but where are
[00:34:34.480] you?
[00:34:35.760] You know, if you're looking for a body
[00:34:37.919] and you say, "Okay, the the body's here.
[00:34:40.320] There's an old farmhouse and there's a
[00:34:42.240] railroad bridge over a river and the
[00:34:44.480] river's got a bend and and the the FBI
[00:34:47.679] says, "I don't know where that is." But
[00:34:49.839] the local sheriff may say that's the old
[00:34:51.679] Smith Place. So,
[00:34:53.839] >> you're better off working for locals in
[00:34:55.919] that case. But Joe went back, found
[00:34:58.400] Dozer, this I think second story of this
[00:35:01.599] place he described. And the question
[00:35:04.079] became where are you? And
[00:35:07.599] Joe was trying to come up with a way and
[00:35:11.040] he finally said Padilla.
[00:35:14.000] And they came back and said how do you
[00:35:15.680] know it was Padilla? Said well I went
[00:35:17.280] back 300 years and met this bishop and
[00:35:20.800] asked him what he was. He said he was
[00:35:23.839] the archbishop of Padilla.
[00:35:26.480] >> Oh my goodness. that didn't get reported
[00:35:28.480] up because DIA was doing what these two
[00:35:32.800] civilian remote viewers. Yep. Now, the
[00:35:36.560] story was relayed to me. I wasn't there.
[00:35:40.240] >> Yeah. But
[00:35:41.040] >> but did he ultimately turn out to be in
[00:35:42.880] Padilla then?
[00:35:44.800] >> Yeah. And uh the understanding is the
[00:35:47.839] building that Joe described was pretty
[00:35:49.920] much right on.
[00:35:51.119] >> Oh my gosh, that's incredible. Yeah,
[00:35:53.119] that was something very interesting from
[00:35:54.640] Paul's book was in so many cases because
[00:35:56.720] these are such hard targets. It's often
[00:35:58.320] hard to get any kind of feedback. Yes.
[00:36:00.960] On it and verification, but I know that
[00:36:03.200] a few were were verified, a few sessions
[00:36:05.359] were kind of verified like years and
[00:36:07.040] years later, like after the Soviet Union
[00:36:09.119] collapsed. But I can see you guys really
[00:36:10.960] had your work cut out for you, you know,
[00:36:13.119] with so little chance of seeing other,
[00:36:15.599] you know, ways of seeing inside of a
[00:36:17.280] Soviet research facility or something
[00:36:18.720] like that. We had a briefing book called
[00:36:21.680] it the red book and in it we had several
[00:36:25.040] of the more fantastic successes if you
[00:36:28.240] will that we could brief on but we kept
[00:36:30.960] track of every case that we worked who
[00:36:33.680] we worked it for and the results of the
[00:36:36.480] case. Now normally what you do is an
[00:36:41.040] intelligence collector will submit an
[00:36:43.280] intelligence information report an IIR
[00:36:46.400] to meet a certain requirement. If you
[00:36:48.800] get, you know, 10% back saying this was
[00:36:51.760] of some value, you feel pretty good
[00:36:54.240] about that. Now, of our cases, 50% came
[00:36:59.200] back as rated by the the customer of of
[00:37:03.520] as of exceptionally high value.
[00:37:06.640] >> Now, they aren't saying we were just
[00:37:08.480] correct. We're saying we were correct
[00:37:10.880] and the information was not available
[00:37:12.800] any place else till later.
[00:37:14.960] >> Oh, wow. And as you said, a lot of the
[00:37:17.280] cases we worked, there was no feedback
[00:37:19.520] on for two or three years. I was down at
[00:37:22.640] the FBI one Friday talking to my contact
[00:37:25.520] down there about something and I got
[00:37:27.920] ready to head back up to Fort Me. Norm
[00:37:31.680] said, "Wait a minute. I got something
[00:37:32.960] for you." Went over to a safe and gave
[00:37:34.960] me a top secret document.
[00:37:37.520] I said, "Well, thanks, Norm." I'll said,
[00:37:39.200] "This this was a case you worked long
[00:37:42.240] before you got here." I said, 'Okay,
[00:37:44.880] where do I sign for it? And he said, 'N
[00:37:46.720] no, that's an extra copy. Now, you don't
[00:37:50.720] do extra copies of top secret documents.
[00:37:53.200] It was obvious they didn't want a record
[00:37:56.000] of where it went.
[00:37:57.520] >> So, I said, "Well, can I use your
[00:37:59.280] phone?" Because we weren't authorized at
[00:38:02.079] the Project to store top secret.
[00:38:05.440] >> So, I I called the office and told them,
[00:38:07.920] "Would you please call over to the
[00:38:09.680] skiff?
[00:38:11.200] make sure they stay open till I get back
[00:38:13.200] there. By the way, would you send me an
[00:38:15.920] appointment up on Monday to get red on
[00:38:18.480] for the Gword?
[00:38:20.880] So, but that was maybe three years after
[00:38:23.760] we had originally worked the target. We
[00:38:25.680] got some back under.
[00:38:27.520] >> Wow, that's incredible. Yeah, I I can I
[00:38:29.760] can see how difficult that would be.
[00:38:30.880] It's good now with hindsight that you
[00:38:32.400] were you were vindicated, you know,
[00:38:33.920] there, but that's that's a long three
[00:38:35.200] years to go without any kind of
[00:38:36.480] confirmation at all. I'm sure. We
[00:38:37.920] counted that as a failure up and then
[00:38:39.599] all of a sudden was a success.
[00:38:41.599] >> And of course the CIA was tickled with
[00:38:43.440] it because
[00:38:44.880] >> I'll bet I'll bet.
[00:38:46.560] >> So Bill, I've heard you in another
[00:38:48.160] interview you spoke about a very
[00:38:50.160] frightening viewing session that you
[00:38:52.000] had. Is that something you're you're
[00:38:53.359] ready to share with us or willing to
[00:38:54.800] share again? Sure.
[00:38:55.680] >> It sounded like it it was pretty
[00:38:57.040] traumatizing honestly.
[00:38:58.400] >> Yeah, I would do that. Yes. I I I think
[00:39:00.880] what you're referring to as a uh session
[00:39:03.200] I worked in April 85. Skip Atwater
[00:39:07.280] monitored me.
[00:39:09.680] This was the longest session I ever
[00:39:11.599] worked. Well over 2 and 1/2 hours. It's
[00:39:15.040] the only session that I've ever been
[00:39:17.119] reluctant to go to the target.
[00:39:20.880] I picked up a Navy ship sailing on
[00:39:24.400] waters and everything was calm and quiet
[00:39:28.000] and then it was morning and the ship was
[00:39:30.160] empty and Skip had to move me back and
[00:39:33.599] then move me forward until I finally got
[00:39:35.520] to the target. I I have the summary I
[00:39:38.320] did at that time. If we have time, I'll
[00:39:40.960] read it to you.
[00:39:42.000] >> Yeah. Yeah, by all means. Thank you.
[00:39:43.359] >> Okay. And this is the summary I wrote
[00:39:45.599] after being on target for almost three
[00:39:47.440] hours. On an ocean a short distance from
[00:39:50.800] a coast in 1981, there is a ship. I knew
[00:39:54.880] it was 1981 because we'd gone back in
[00:39:57.920] time four years. So that kind of figure
[00:40:00.800] that out. This ship has a military
[00:40:03.280] feeling. It is smaller than a destroyer.
[00:40:07.040] There are only men on board. They are
[00:40:09.200] wearing clean white uniforms, maybe
[00:40:11.680] white shorts. The men are young for the
[00:40:14.320] most part and are athletic. They are on
[00:40:17.119] a routine mission. There is a second
[00:40:19.760] group of people involved. They are in a
[00:40:22.560] large shiny metallic silver craft which
[00:40:25.760] looks like this. And I drew a triangular
[00:40:29.520] UFO for one of a better word. The second
[00:40:32.720] group of people are unemotional,
[00:40:34.960] programmed, ordered, disciplined,
[00:40:37.440] interlin, interconnected, interrelated,
[00:40:40.640] and intertwined. They are cold and
[00:40:43.440] unpleasant. They are lean, sterile, and
[00:40:46.640] white, not further identified. They are
[00:40:49.440] returning and gathering, not further
[00:40:52.000] identified. I get no impression of any
[00:40:55.520] sex differences among these people.
[00:40:59.040] The afternoon is sunny and bright, and
[00:41:00.960] the ocean is calm. The men on the Navy
[00:41:03.040] boat go to a state of alert like battle
[00:41:05.359] stations. There is a routine feeling
[00:41:08.000] here. This is planned and has been
[00:41:09.920] rehearsed. There is a feeling of
[00:41:12.240] confidence. Every everyone knows their
[00:41:14.800] jobs and the man in charge knows what he
[00:41:17.839] is doing. Time passes around sunset or
[00:41:22.560] early evening. I think an unexpected
[00:41:25.520] event occurs. A shadow falls across the
[00:41:29.119] boat. The water is tossing and rising in
[00:41:32.480] the vicinity of the boat. It almost
[00:41:35.280] looks like the sea is boiling. There is
[00:41:38.400] mist, vapor, and steam around the boat.
[00:41:41.839] The mist is damp and is of several
[00:41:44.880] colors. I do not recall what those are
[00:41:48.079] and I feel that it is not important.
[00:41:51.040] There is complete panic and confusion on
[00:41:54.000] the boat. Men are screaming and
[00:41:56.560] hollering and many are running
[00:41:58.319] aimlessly. Others are terrified and
[00:42:01.359] screaming but remain where they are at
[00:42:03.520] their stations. The ship smiles of
[00:42:06.800] insanity and fear. No one knows what to
[00:42:10.480] do. No one can take charge. There is a
[00:42:14.240] feeling, not a color, of red and black,
[00:42:18.000] like a photographic negative. I cannot
[00:42:21.359] explain that any better. There is a
[00:42:24.240] tremendous feeling of gravity here. Skin
[00:42:27.680] is pulled tight across the cheekbones.
[00:42:30.560] Arms are incredibly heavy, and I have a
[00:42:34.240] difficult time moving moving my feet off
[00:42:37.200] the deck.
[00:42:38.960] I believe all this turmoil is being
[00:42:41.359] caused by the cold unemotional group of
[00:42:44.000] people in the strange shaped craft which
[00:42:47.119] is hovering over the ship. After a time
[00:42:50.480] the strange shaped craft rises up and
[00:42:52.960] goes west over the land and all becomes
[00:42:56.000] calm and quiet. There is a salty clean
[00:42:59.680] wind blowing from the north. I believe
[00:43:02.640] the ship is floating in the water, quiet
[00:43:04.960] and empty. No living person on board.
[00:43:08.960] Then we went to stage five where I
[00:43:10.960] basically interrogate my subconscious.
[00:43:14.800] There is a feeling of entering the
[00:43:16.720] craft. This entering is forced and
[00:43:19.680] temporary. The attributes of this
[00:43:22.560] entering are several and previous.
[00:43:25.680] Up white is resistant and is not
[00:43:29.599] resistant are also other subjects of
[00:43:32.000] this. The subject of of the entering is
[00:43:36.000] experiment and learning. The topics of
[00:43:39.040] the entering are ongoing biological,
[00:43:41.920] developing, encompassing, scientific,
[00:43:45.119] social, material, research,
[00:43:47.760] categorizing, cataloging, and
[00:43:49.839] developing.
[00:43:51.440] There is something important underwater
[00:43:53.599] near the site. Something to do with
[00:43:56.160] bubbles in hidden, sensitive, secretive,
[00:44:00.079] selective colony.
[00:44:02.240] The subject is life and ecology. Its
[00:44:05.040] topics are deep, dark, sustaining,
[00:44:08.960] nourishing, acrobatic, but I spelled
[00:44:11.599] epinetically, elongated, and sailing.
[00:44:16.400] I did five combat tours in the M East
[00:44:18.960] and I've been terrified. I'm been
[00:44:22.079] through range school. I've jumped out of
[00:44:24.000] airplanes and I was very afraid. When I
[00:44:27.200] think back to those times, I can
[00:44:29.200] remember that. Yeah, I was afraid then.
[00:44:32.640] I am terrified right now from just
[00:44:36.319] reading that. It's not a normal fear. It
[00:44:40.079] it it that's to say it it it smelled of
[00:44:43.520] insanity. My gosh. Yeah. I cannot
[00:44:46.800] imagine that's a deeply disturbing
[00:44:48.800] narrative there. Just, you know, hearing
[00:44:50.160] you read it across the room there is is
[00:44:52.480] astonishing. That feeling of gravity and
[00:44:54.160] the face stretched, the skin stretched
[00:44:55.920] across the cheekbones like you
[00:44:56.960] mentioned. It's extremely disturbing.
[00:44:58.319] Honestly,
[00:44:58.880] >> obviously I got sucked in and right now
[00:45:01.680] the hairs on my arm are standing up.
[00:45:04.160] >> Oh my gosh. So, you said this took place
[00:45:06.960] in 1981. Were you able to tie it to a a
[00:45:09.920] a disappearance or anything in ' 81
[00:45:11.920] afterwards?
[00:45:12.560] >> No, I haven't. I think Skip had Well,
[00:45:16.000] Skip did the targeting obviously for a
[00:45:18.240] reason. I'm not sure what that was. I
[00:45:21.200] think he had information of a you know,
[00:45:23.760] the Flying Dutchman scenario there. Mhm.
[00:45:26.720] >> I did look up the Bay of St. Augustine
[00:45:29.280] and according to the muon, there is a
[00:45:32.800] secret alien base underwater close to
[00:45:36.480] the bay. This is what I saw and what I
[00:45:39.760] felt. Strangely enough, Joe McMonicle
[00:45:42.400] worked this
[00:45:44.640] probably about a year before I did. Got
[00:45:47.359] pretty much the same thing. Tom McNair
[00:45:50.560] worked it and just had a very hard time
[00:45:53.839] ahead of time with what was going on
[00:45:55.839] there. But Paul Smith worked it and had
[00:45:58.720] too many advances of UFO. It was too
[00:46:01.520] front-loaded to actually work the site.
[00:46:05.680] >> I think those are the four of us who
[00:46:07.440] worked it.
[00:46:08.800] >> But Joe and I were the two who stuck
[00:46:10.800] with it. And it's it it was a very
[00:46:13.200] difficult site. And it's the only site
[00:46:15.119] that I that I've had trouble with that
[00:46:17.280] my subconscious didn't want didn't want
[00:46:19.839] me to go there.
[00:46:21.520] >> H Okay. Yeah, I can certainly imagine
[00:46:23.920] that's incredibly foreoding. This Bay of
[00:46:26.079] St. Augustine that you mentioned, is
[00:46:27.599] this like in the Pacific Ocean? It's not
[00:46:29.520] part of the United States.
[00:46:30.480] >> No, it's off the coast of Argentina.
[00:46:32.480] >> Argentina. Okay.
[00:46:33.599] >> And the uh the boat, from what I can
[00:46:35.359] gather, was an Argentine mine sweeper,
[00:46:37.680] which is smaller than a destroyer.
[00:46:39.920] >> Mhm. Okay. Wow. Yeah. That's incredible.
[00:46:43.359] My gosh. So, as you said, you were you
[00:46:46.319] were later the commander for Stargate.
[00:46:49.599] What was it like when the program
[00:46:50.880] switched over to Defense Intelligence
[00:46:53.040] Agency later on? Did you have to manage
[00:46:55.119] that transition yourself?
[00:46:56.480] >> Yes.
[00:46:58.240] First of all, there there were actually
[00:47:00.000] four agencies that wanted us. The DIA
[00:47:03.040] with Jack Verona, who' kind of been a
[00:47:05.599] patron of ours. The CIA wanted us. NSA
[00:47:09.040] wanted us. Last agency that wanted of us
[00:47:11.920] was the medical R&D command up at Fort
[00:47:15.119] Richie on the Maryland Pennsylvania
[00:47:17.920] border. And we've been to all those
[00:47:20.079] places.
[00:47:21.119] >> I was leaning towards going with the
[00:47:22.960] CIA,
[00:47:24.640] but they got caught mining the harbor in
[00:47:27.920] Nicaragua.
[00:47:29.359] >> Oh, yeah.
[00:47:30.240] >> They decided that they couldn't do
[00:47:32.079] anything that might might be considered
[00:47:36.319] far out. So they said, "We we'll have to
[00:47:38.400] back out." I was worried that if we went
[00:47:41.359] to NSA, we'd be doing com
[00:47:44.800] working for Dr. Scott at that time, who
[00:47:47.119] was the head of COSE for NSA, which I
[00:47:50.079] thought would be very boring, and we
[00:47:51.760] would have a, you know, once the viewers
[00:47:53.839] get bored, you're probably not going to
[00:47:55.200] have a high success rate.
[00:47:57.359] >> The medical R&D command, I I didn't
[00:48:00.319] think we'd be doing anything
[00:48:01.599] operational. They'd be shoving tubes up
[00:48:04.319] every or orifice they could find to find
[00:48:07.359] out what happens when we were on target
[00:48:09.359] and when we were off target. So DIA was
[00:48:12.000] the place we went. It was interesting.
[00:48:14.800] DIA is an analytical institution. They
[00:48:18.560] they don't collect intelligence per se.
[00:48:21.520] >> Mhm.
[00:48:21.839] >> And we were coming over. We were going
[00:48:23.599] to be under the the atache section I
[00:48:26.720] think at or a which would have been
[00:48:30.079] interesting because that was headed up
[00:48:31.680] by General Schufelt and his wife
[00:48:34.720] Charlene Chufelt worked for me. So he
[00:48:37.359] would have raided me and I would have
[00:48:38.800] raided her which I I think may have
[00:48:41.040] caused unique legal problems. But we
[00:48:44.000] went over to S&T Science and Technology
[00:48:46.480] under Jack Verona. There were probably
[00:48:48.559] just four people maybe only three who
[00:48:50.960] were read in. Jack himself, the command
[00:48:55.040] or the deputy commander of S&T was an
[00:48:57.359] air force full colonel Dale Graph who
[00:49:00.400] had been involved in this program years
[00:49:02.319] before out of right Pat
[00:49:05.040] and of course the director and deputy
[00:49:07.040] director of of DIA. So nobody knew quite
[00:49:10.640] what we did and we came over and we were
[00:49:13.280] kind of temporarily under S&T. So they
[00:49:16.480] just made us a placeholder and our our
[00:49:20.480] call sign was S&TX.
[00:49:23.280] Now at DIA when you have a single letter
[00:49:27.119] like X then or or whatever it is that's
[00:49:29.920] headed up by a colonel. If you have S&T
[00:49:33.119] XA that's headed up by lieutenant
[00:49:36.079] colonel. So everybody assumed I was a
[00:49:38.800] colonel at the time because it was only
[00:49:41.119] one letter. We were in civilian clothes.
[00:49:43.280] They knew we did weird things, but they
[00:49:45.200] weren't sure what. In fact, we had we
[00:49:48.800] got a government car from DIA. We turned
[00:49:51.359] ours in from the army and we would park
[00:49:54.000] it out by our building or which was out
[00:49:56.960] in the middle of the woods and the the
[00:49:59.119] only thing close to it was a sergeant
[00:50:00.960] major's quarters
[00:50:03.040] and evidently one of the Sergeant
[00:50:04.720] Major's kids got a BB gun for Christmas
[00:50:07.839] because in January we started to have
[00:50:10.160] the fire light which we would leave on
[00:50:12.079] at night. it'd get shot out. So, we come
[00:50:14.480] in between, you know, didn't think
[00:50:17.520] anything of it. Then, we came in one day
[00:50:19.680] and they shot out the windshield of this
[00:50:21.920] government car.
[00:50:23.119] >> Oh my gosh.
[00:50:23.920] >> So, I reported to DIA that I set up an
[00:50:27.440] appointment to get a new windshield and
[00:50:28.960] they said, "No, we'll handle that." So,
[00:50:30.800] they set up an appointment for us to
[00:50:32.480] take the car in, get a new windshield,
[00:50:34.640] which is about half what they were going
[00:50:36.480] to charge us. So, I said, "Okay, good."
[00:50:39.760] In the meantime, this was into spring in
[00:50:41.839] the summer. The building had been
[00:50:44.079] infested by wasp. We had all these wasp
[00:50:47.200] all around big hives. So, we called the
[00:50:49.760] post engineers and they were going to
[00:50:51.599] come over and put a bomb in to kill the
[00:50:53.839] wasp. And but the thing is they had to
[00:50:55.920] do it and then come back four hours
[00:50:58.720] later and take it off and then you
[00:51:00.319] couldn't be there for 48 hours because
[00:51:02.319] of the fumes.
[00:51:03.760] >> I said, "Well, no problem. We'll we'll
[00:51:05.680] just close the office at 1:00 on
[00:51:07.760] Friday." and then you can come and we'll
[00:51:10.400] let you in and it's okay that that'll
[00:51:12.640] work. So, as we're getting ready to
[00:51:14.720] clear out that Friday, I get a phone
[00:51:16.559] call from the logistics people at DIA
[00:51:20.640] and they uh said, "Well, Bill, you're
[00:51:22.720] all set up to get the windshield
[00:51:24.079] replaced." I said, "Yep, yep." They say,
[00:51:26.559] "Uh, curious, how did the windshield get
[00:51:28.880] shattered?" I said, "Well, it got shot
[00:51:30.720] out."
[00:51:32.319] He said, "Got shot out?" I said, "Yes,
[00:51:34.800] I'm not thinking what's going on here."
[00:51:37.119] And he said, "Weren't you worried?" And
[00:51:38.880] I said, 'N no, you know, the building
[00:51:40.400] gets shot at a lot, too. And we just,
[00:51:42.319] you know, change light bulbs or
[00:51:44.240] whatever. And about that time, Paul
[00:51:46.480] Smith hollers at me. He says, "Bill, we
[00:51:48.880] have to go. The bomb's ready to go off."
[00:51:53.680] Is there anything else you need? He
[00:51:55.200] said, "No, no, go ahead."
[00:51:56.960] >> Oh my goodness.
[00:51:57.920] >> So, there must have been some good
[00:51:59.440] stories told about that down at
[00:52:02.079] >> I'll bet. I'll bet.
[00:52:02.960] >> At the DACK.
[00:52:04.160] >> Yeah. You guys made an impression, I'm
[00:52:05.599] sure.
[00:52:05.839] >> Yes.
[00:52:07.359] So was this change was this overall like
[00:52:09.920] a positive for the program in your
[00:52:11.920] opinion? Did DIA make some like much
[00:52:13.680] needed changes or was it like a you know
[00:52:15.920] you know unnecessary overhide or
[00:52:17.760] something like that?
[00:52:18.400] >> Yeah, I'm going to say it probably was
[00:52:21.440] neutral. We stayed at DIA up till the
[00:52:24.160] very end when we went over to the CIA
[00:52:27.040] for one day and John Ditch canceled it.
[00:52:30.160] >> So
[00:52:30.400] >> Oh my gosh.
[00:52:31.119] >> Yep. It worked okay at DIA. Yep. When
[00:52:34.319] General Stubblebine was the commander of
[00:52:36.720] INSCOM, he kind of felt like I think he
[00:52:40.480] thought he was my operations officer and
[00:52:43.680] he would call me and say, "Bill, I'm
[00:52:45.520] coming up Thursday night about 1900
[00:52:48.000] hours." I said, "Okay, sir." Say, "Here,
[00:52:50.400] we got to work and get everybody in and
[00:52:52.319] we set up your blocks with all the cases
[00:52:55.040] we were working on and recesses,
[00:52:57.280] whatever." and he'd come up in the
[00:53:00.000] middle of winter and he would leave his
[00:53:01.839] aid and driver out in the car and I'd
[00:53:03.839] send somebody out to get them and bring
[00:53:06.000] them into the other building, give them
[00:53:07.599] coffee, whatever. He sat down and we'd
[00:53:10.319] get ready to brief him and it it never
[00:53:13.280] happened. He would start off and say,
[00:53:15.520] "Yeah, Bill, you know, I had a I had a
[00:53:17.760] dream the other night." I said, "Yes,
[00:53:20.240] sir." Said, "And do you know what was in
[00:53:22.880] the dream?" I No, sir. Says, "I dreamed
[00:53:25.760] of a black cat." I said, "Okay, sir." He
[00:53:28.880] said, "That black cat ate the world." I
[00:53:32.079] said, "Yes, sir." Said, "What do you
[00:53:34.000] make of that?"
[00:53:36.559] Well,
[00:53:38.720] yeah. That's That's one mean cat, sir.
[00:53:41.359] And we'd go through and then he'd leave
[00:53:43.200] and we hadn't briefed him on anything.
[00:53:45.200] What's going on? Yep.
[00:53:46.880] >> Yep. But I say I would usually head down
[00:53:49.760] and talk to GS-15, Wally Del Toro, who I
[00:53:53.359] knew from Europe, just to let them know
[00:53:56.160] who we were working for. Yeah. You know,
[00:53:59.920] being up there by ourselves was kind of
[00:54:01.839] a lonely feeling.
[00:54:03.680] >> Mhm. I'll bet. Yeah. I've seen a picture
[00:54:05.839] of that that wooden building. It was in
[00:54:07.440] in Paul's book and it's it's kind of for
[00:54:09.520] Lauren looking, honestly.
[00:54:11.599] It was the old INSCOM headquarters
[00:54:13.920] company operations office and the the
[00:54:18.319] other building was the messaul.
[00:54:20.960] >> But it was interesting when Colonel
[00:54:23.040] Busby was there, he he made his office
[00:54:26.559] in in the Chief Cook's office, which
[00:54:28.640] was, you know, not huge or anything. And
[00:54:31.040] we had this huge room in the back, which
[00:54:33.280] we used for a a a conference room. I
[00:54:37.359] kept trying to move his desk back there.
[00:54:40.720] Yeah. And uh he kept saying no, no, cuz
[00:54:43.359] he'd have a better office then than all
[00:54:45.680] the generals did. So as soon as Colonel
[00:54:48.400] Busby left, the gang got together. I
[00:54:50.480] came in one morning and they had moved
[00:54:52.160] my desk back there. So I had this huge
[00:54:54.720] conference room, a general officer's
[00:54:56.720] desk. Very nice. In fact, General
[00:54:59.359] Shufeld came in one time and said,
[00:55:01.839] "Bill, your your office is twice as nice
[00:55:04.559] as mine and four times as big."
[00:55:07.680] Yes, sir.
[00:55:10.000] Wow.
[00:55:11.520] So, Bill, you were there to the very end
[00:55:13.599] of the program. Is that right?
[00:55:14.800] >> No. No. I was there three and a half
[00:55:16.400] years. 87 pro the project ran on till 94
[00:55:20.800] 95. Paul stayed there pretty much then.
[00:55:23.359] Lynn Buchanan stayed there. The
[00:55:25.599] difference I think I I had the option.
[00:55:27.680] Branch called me and said, "Bill, look
[00:55:29.359] at you just transferred from Army to
[00:55:32.400] DIA." Yeah. I was well over 20 years. I
[00:55:35.280] could have retired. said, "No, if you
[00:55:37.359] want to stay there, I'll leave you
[00:55:38.559] there. Or if you want to go someplace
[00:55:40.800] else, let me know." So I said, "Well,
[00:55:42.240] let me talk to the family." And family
[00:55:44.559] said, "Munich would be good." Because
[00:55:46.960] Munich had I was a major, so they had
[00:55:49.040] great quarters for field grade officers.
[00:55:51.440] So, and Munich's a lovely city. There
[00:55:54.160] there was no job I really wanted there
[00:55:56.400] would be staff work, which I I hate. But
[00:55:59.839] I said, "Well, if you can get me to
[00:56:01.280] Munich," he said, "Okay." Because I
[00:56:05.040] think with Paul and some of the other
[00:56:06.960] guys, they're remote viewers first,
[00:56:09.280] intelligence officers and soldiers
[00:56:11.680] second and third. I think I'm a soldier,
[00:56:13.920] an intelligence officer, and then a
[00:56:15.680] remote viewer. And I I really missed the
[00:56:18.720] come of of of intelligence operations.
[00:56:22.720] >> Ended up I got a phone call. No, I got a
[00:56:25.200] message saying I've been transferred
[00:56:26.720] from Munich to Kaiser Slottton. So the
[00:56:29.520] family went from being ecstatic to not
[00:56:31.680] talking to me.
[00:56:33.440] I just saw him had a bad reputation.
[00:56:35.680] Undeserved, I'll have to say. And then I
[00:56:38.000] got a phone call saying, "Look at Bill.
[00:56:40.400] We're looking at you. Do you speak
[00:56:41.760] German?" I said, "Yes." Looking at you
[00:56:43.760] to take over command of
[00:56:46.559] one of the two CI companies in Europe
[00:56:48.720] that you'll be in the Netherlands. It's
[00:56:50.799] pretty plush assignment. I had about 150
[00:56:55.200] CI agents and support personnel. I had
[00:56:57.760] everybody in the northern twothirds of
[00:56:59.599] Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands,
[00:57:01.520] Netherlands, and Luxembourg all all fell
[00:57:04.160] under us. Wow.
[00:57:05.520] >> But I was happy. And I I did that for
[00:57:08.720] three years. Then down the street from
[00:57:11.920] us, there was a NATO unit that that I
[00:57:15.119] NATO MI unit. I knew most in fact I knew
[00:57:17.440] everybody there. And they provided it
[00:57:21.040] was 650th MI group of the US Army. Their
[00:57:24.559] NATO name is Allied Command Europe
[00:57:26.799] counter intelligence activity and they
[00:57:28.960] provided all CI support to NATO and
[00:57:32.079] they'd been trying to catch the the AFC
[00:57:35.119] LA forces center Europe spy for two or
[00:57:37.920] three years. I had sent people TDY while
[00:57:40.799] I was commanding the US unit. So they
[00:57:43.440] came over and said, "Look at if you want
[00:57:45.839] to retire,
[00:57:47.599] talking to me and my two senior NCOs's,
[00:57:50.880] we'll hire you on as civilians to catch
[00:57:53.040] the halfsent spy," which I got to stay
[00:57:55.920] in Europe. So we went ahead and did that
[00:57:58.000] and we went over to over to NATO, which
[00:58:00.880] was kind of a shock, but I spent 10
[00:58:03.359] years there. I spent over 20 years in
[00:58:06.000] Europe, 10 years conducting operations
[00:58:09.520] with the US and 10 years conducting
[00:58:12.480] operations for NATO. The thing with NATO
[00:58:15.599] is that any anything you're going to do
[00:58:18.640] is going to be bilateral. You go to
[00:58:22.000] address, it's going to be US, US, the
[00:58:24.799] 650th. It's going to be the sending
[00:58:27.119] country, the UK, Germany, Netherlands,
[00:58:30.960] and probably the host country that's
[00:58:32.960] happening in. So, it could be
[00:58:35.760] trilateral. And we did catch the absence
[00:58:38.880] spy eventually.
[00:58:41.359] >> And was this Conrad or was this somebody
[00:58:43.760] else? Yeah, we it was a general officer
[00:58:48.480] from another country.
[00:58:50.880] >> Ah,
[00:58:51.440] >> and we gave them our evidence. They
[00:58:54.640] allowed me to sit in on the
[00:58:56.160] interrogation,
[00:58:58.400] which was uh in France, but they
[00:59:00.160] translated for me. And they asked him,
[00:59:02.720] "Have you had contact with the KGB?"
[00:59:05.839] And he said, "Yes." You can see the time
[00:59:08.160] frame on this. He said, "Yes." And then
[00:59:11.520] they asked him, "Yeah, why?" and he
[00:59:13.520] said, "Well, I buy a lot of art and KGB
[00:59:16.799] has access to a lot of art." And they
[00:59:19.280] said, "Okay."
[00:59:20.880] And they, to my knowledge, they never
[00:59:23.680] prosecuted him, but they pulled
[00:59:26.160] clearance and Yeah. Well, the thing is,
[00:59:28.559] yeah, we had the same problem with the
[00:59:30.880] French a couple times where we had they
[00:59:33.440] somebody was obviously spying.
[00:59:35.760] >> It would have been a loss of face to
[00:59:40.799] >> Okay. Well, that's the most important
[00:59:41.839] thing. That's the most important thing.
[00:59:43.280] My gosh. Yep.
[00:59:43.839] >> So, a NATO general was a recruited KGB
[00:59:46.240] asset and he was not prosecuted.
[00:59:47.599] >> Nope.
[00:59:48.079] >> That's amazing.
[00:59:49.040] >> As far as I know, I don't know what the
[00:59:51.359] Belgians did later, but once again, we
[00:59:54.000] don't Yeah. NATO doesn't prosecute. We
[00:59:56.720] do the case. And this I work closely
[00:59:59.520] with the Dutch counter intelligence, the
[01:00:01.839] BFB. We put our cases together and
[01:00:04.480] passed it over to them with all the
[01:00:06.240] information
[01:00:07.440] >> and they it never to my knowledge and I
[01:00:10.400] can't say that it didn't come to trial
[01:00:12.079] later. It it it very well might have but
[01:00:14.880] they didn't make a big stink of it
[01:00:16.400] because it would have been embarrassing.
[01:00:19.040] >> Wow. So this is not ringing a bell for
[01:00:21.040] me at all. Is this Did this story ever
[01:00:22.559] go public to your knowledge, Bill? I I
[01:00:24.079] can't
[01:00:24.640] >> This is the first time that I think it's
[01:00:26.319] been admitted
[01:00:28.160] >> right now with me.
[01:00:29.200] >> Yep. I think this is Yeah.
[01:00:30.319] >> Oh wow. I don't think my two senior
[01:00:32.799] NCOs's, one of whom died a couple years
[01:00:34.880] back, I was a very good friend. I I
[01:00:37.200] don't think they've ever talked about
[01:00:38.640] it. So, it's
[01:00:39.599] >> Oh my goodness.
[01:00:40.240] >> Well, some of the people at the 650th
[01:00:42.799] headquarters where, of course, they were
[01:00:45.040] monitoring the case and we passed the
[01:00:47.359] case through them over to the Belgiums
[01:00:49.599] when we resolved it. And maybe the guy
[01:00:52.559] was innocent. Maybe he just contacted
[01:00:54.880] the KGB to to get art.
[01:00:58.880] >> Yeah. And I can't say he was guilty and
[01:01:01.440] never went to trial to find out.
[01:01:03.200] >> Yeah. Yeah, I understand that. That's he
[01:01:04.720] has not been found guilty, whoever he
[01:01:05.920] is. You know, one interview doesn't say
[01:01:07.280] everything. I I understand that, but I'm
[01:01:08.880] extremely intrigued to say the least
[01:01:10.880] right now. I would love to look that guy
[01:01:12.400] up after this if I can and see if
[01:01:14.079] anything came of it from his career, but
[01:01:16.160] I'm also kind of not surprised that was
[01:01:17.520] hushed up because that would be
[01:01:18.400] extraordinarily embarrassing.
[01:01:19.760] >> Yes. So we did a lot of that. But I did
[01:01:22.079] 10 years with them working out of I
[01:01:24.880] eventually after the first year in
[01:01:26.799] Holland I I moved out to Genian NATO A3.
[01:01:31.280] It was a NATO air base and and worked
[01:01:33.520] out of there covering Galen Kersian and
[01:01:36.000] also any place else they needed me. So I
[01:01:39.599] got to see an awful lot of Europe during
[01:01:41.440] the during that 10 years.
[01:01:43.280] >> It sounds like it. And being you were
[01:01:44.720] based in the Netherlands that entire
[01:01:46.240] time. Is that correct?
[01:01:46.960] >> I was I'd lived in the Netherlands for
[01:01:48.720] 13 years. three years commanding the US
[01:01:51.280] unit.
[01:01:52.240] >> The first year I was at the at the
[01:01:54.960] headquarters of region 4 and then I
[01:01:57.520] moved over for the last nine years off
[01:01:59.680] the guideline cursion but it was it was
[01:02:01.599] a a 25m minute drive. The border had
[01:02:04.720] opened up by that time.
[01:02:06.079] >> Yeah.
[01:02:06.480] >> Okay. That that sounds wonderful.
[01:02:07.599] Honestly, it sounds like you were just
[01:02:08.640] in the right place.
[01:02:09.760] >> Yeah. And my wife was the uh alcohol and
[01:02:12.559] drug counselor for the Netherlands. So
[01:02:15.200] >> Oh. Oh wow. Both have important roles to
[01:02:17.440] play.
[01:02:17.839] >> Yep. Very cool. So you you mentioned
[01:02:20.960] that you transitioned. So was it as not
[01:02:23.040] I wouldn't say it's simple, but was it
[01:02:24.559] as fast as like you left work, you know,
[01:02:26.400] in uniform and and like the very next
[01:02:28.240] workday you were back as a civilian or
[01:02:29.920] did you have to take time off or go back
[01:02:31.680] to Wuka or something like that?
[01:02:33.040] >> Well, most of my time was in civilian
[01:02:34.880] clothes. So I I wore the same sport coat
[01:02:37.839] in and then but yet it it took a couple
[01:02:41.680] months to get everything through and
[01:02:44.079] then I came back to work and I I was
[01:02:46.240] responsible for me and I normally knew
[01:02:48.319] where I was. You know I I I'd been get
[01:02:50.480] used to getting phone calls saying
[01:02:52.480] what's going on up at Bremahav and I
[01:02:55.040] would say well I don't know anything
[01:02:57.359] going on but you must think you do. So
[01:02:59.440] why don't you tell me what you know and
[01:03:01.040] then I'll talk to them. Yeah.
[01:03:03.839] So, but yeah, I did spend a lot of time.
[01:03:06.400] I spent 10 year 10 more years as a as a
[01:03:09.359] civilian there and then 10 years in
[01:03:13.359] White Sands, New Mexico providing
[01:03:15.599] counter intelligence support to New
[01:03:17.280] Mexico, which was a people don't realize
[01:03:19.680] the importance of that state.
[01:03:22.880] Awful classified technology comes out of
[01:03:26.000] there. They have national labs, Sandia,
[01:03:29.200] they have army air force national labs
[01:03:32.079] and then Los Alamos.
[01:03:33.920] >> Mhm.
[01:03:34.319] >> The nuclear program. So it was
[01:03:37.119] thoroughly enjoyed that. There are a lot
[01:03:39.200] of classified contracts on the Indian
[01:03:41.359] reservations.
[01:03:42.960] >> Really, really interesting.
[01:03:44.160] >> Yep.
[01:03:45.119] >> Yeah. I have not been there yet. We just
[01:03:46.640] did an episode about the the nuclear
[01:03:48.640] program just a couple of weeks ago and
[01:03:51.039] you know, incredible history and I've
[01:03:52.799] heard that New Mexico is an incredibly
[01:03:54.160] beautiful state as well.
[01:03:55.280] >> It is. So
[01:03:56.400] >> I'd still place to be.
[01:03:58.079] >> Yeah. But my grandkids came to
[01:03:59.839] Wisconsin.
[01:04:01.200] >> Oh. Oh, I see. Well, yeah, I can
[01:04:02.960] understand how that would be a priority
[01:04:04.160] now.
[01:04:04.480] >> Yep.
[01:04:05.599] >> So, I understand your your sons were
[01:04:07.200] also in Army intelligence, weren't they?
[01:04:08.640] >> Yes. I I had two sons, Robbie and Shawn.
[01:04:11.680] Both are retired intelligence soldiers,
[01:04:14.079] NCOs. Rob was a intel analyst, and Sean
[01:04:17.920] was a counter intelligence agent, much
[01:04:19.760] much like I was.
[01:04:21.760] >> Yeah. Rob, when I was with the NATO
[01:04:24.000] unit, Rob was the intelligence NCO for
[01:04:26.640] the whole unit down in Belgium about two
[01:04:29.039] hours away. He did that for two years,
[01:04:31.680] which made his mother very happy. It was
[01:04:33.760] a two-hour drive to come see us.
[01:04:35.680] >> Oh, yeah.
[01:04:36.240] >> Then my son Shawn came over and uh was
[01:04:39.039] down to H Highleberg for about eight
[01:04:40.799] months running cases for them, catching
[01:04:43.280] them up, basically personal security
[01:04:45.599] investigation. So that was nice.
[01:04:47.920] >> And
[01:04:48.319] >> so all three of you were close by for a
[01:04:50.160] brief period there. Is that right? Yep.
[01:04:51.920] >> Oh man, that's incredible.
[01:04:53.039] >> Yep. And then we when I started
[01:04:54.880] deploying
[01:04:56.720] 2005 through 2013
[01:04:59.839] when I deployed in 2006, I was with the
[01:05:02.319] 101st again was the division and Sean
[01:05:06.079] was at a subordinate brigade, third
[01:05:08.559] brigade, second infantry division up at
[01:05:10.480] Mul. I was down at Trit. So I got to go
[01:05:13.839] up and see him. His wife was up there
[01:05:16.319] and at the time Rob was in Kabul in
[01:05:18.880] Afghanistan.
[01:05:20.559] I'd go I could talk to Rob by phone or
[01:05:23.200] go visit Shawn or they would come down.
[01:05:25.839] I noticed I went to see them and Sean
[01:05:28.240] had this shoes housing unit he lived in.
[01:05:30.640] He had boxes everywhere that my wife was
[01:05:33.599] sending him. Rob mentioned he was
[01:05:35.440] getting all kinds of boxes also. I
[01:05:38.240] figured, well, you know, I I got a box,
[01:05:40.960] you know, last month. Must be a bunch
[01:05:43.520] more in the mail coming for me and they
[01:05:45.680] didn't come. So I thought got to her
[01:05:48.240] phone and I called Sandy and I said,
[01:05:50.640] "Yeah, the kids are very happy with all
[01:05:52.960] the boxes they're getting." She said,
[01:05:54.720] "Oh, that's good." I said, "But you
[01:05:57.119] know, they're getting, you know, 20, 30
[01:05:59.359] boxes and I'm getting an occasional
[01:06:01.280] one." And she said, "Well,
[01:06:04.319] I'm not having any more sons, but I can
[01:06:06.480] always get them."
[01:06:08.720] Okay.
[01:06:10.160] >> Oh my gosh. You got you there, Bill.
[01:06:11.680] >> Yeah.
[01:06:12.079] >> Wow.
[01:06:13.359] >> Long as you know where the priorities
[01:06:14.960] are.
[01:06:15.440] >> Yep. Yep. Yep. That's great. That's
[01:06:17.200] that's amazing that you it sounds like
[01:06:19.359] you you know unlike anybody else just
[01:06:21.839] about you'd be able to speak pretty
[01:06:23.280] freely about your work with your sons
[01:06:25.440] and I guess to a certain extent with
[01:06:26.480] your wife too if she was employed there
[01:06:28.240] >> on base. I mean most guys got to close
[01:06:29.680] that stuff off as soon as they leave the
[01:06:30.960] office.
[01:06:31.359] >> Well with the sons yes with the base
[01:06:34.480] know she couldn't talk because she was
[01:06:36.319] counseling alcoholics and drug addicts
[01:06:39.119] couldn't tell me that and I couldn't
[01:06:41.039] talk about what we were doing. So
[01:06:42.799] >> Oh I see.
[01:06:43.359] >> Yeah. Only thing we could talk about was
[01:06:45.119] the kids.
[01:06:47.200] >> Amazing. And funny, you know, bringing
[01:06:49.359] up work right now, I I have to ask,
[01:06:51.280] could you have imagined, you know, back
[01:06:52.720] in like 85 or so, could you have
[01:06:54.400] imagined that one day that you'd be, you
[01:06:56.160] know, doing recorded interviews about
[01:06:57.839] Stargate?
[01:06:58.559] >> No. Start to finish for anybody?
[01:07:00.480] >> Nope.
[01:07:01.520] >> Times have changed.
[01:07:03.200] >> I thought we'd be secret forever. Mhm.
[01:07:05.920] >> You know, I suppose there are probably
[01:07:09.039] several thousand remote viewers out
[01:07:11.039] there now doing all kinds of different
[01:07:13.520] technologies. I I expect with the
[01:07:16.319] pressure being put on the envelope with
[01:07:18.559] hopefully there'll be another
[01:07:20.240] breakthrough soon.
[01:07:21.760] >> Mhm.
[01:07:22.319] >> Yep. In fact, I'm teaching a extended
[01:07:24.559] remote viewing class tomorrow.
[01:07:26.720] >> Oh, okay. So, you're still involved
[01:07:28.160] then? Right now?
[01:07:29.119] >> Yeah. I got back in. I was never trained
[01:07:31.680] in ERV was the thing. I had watched Joe
[01:07:35.920] do ERV and I'd been in the room in the
[01:07:40.079] control room monitoring him while Skip
[01:07:42.640] was monitoring him in in the room. We
[01:07:45.119] would put sensors on Joe's skin. And
[01:07:48.160] when Joe was on target,
[01:07:50.640] his polarity, his body polarity would
[01:07:53.039] reverse, go from a positive to a
[01:07:55.039] negative. And so I eventually we
[01:07:58.480] practiced and I learned how to do that.
[01:08:01.920] And then after Joe left, all we had was
[01:08:04.640] CRVers. We had no ERVers in the unit. So
[01:08:07.680] I got with Skip and said, "Look at, you
[01:08:09.760] know, we really could use another ERVER
[01:08:12.319] and I'd like that to be me."
[01:08:14.400] >> Said, "Okay,
[01:08:17.040] let's start Monday." And I said,
[01:08:18.400] "Great." So I came in Monday and I
[01:08:21.440] thought I was going to be trained and I
[01:08:23.520] ended up in a dark room
[01:08:26.319] and Skip said, "Tell me when you're
[01:08:27.920] ready."
[01:08:29.600] And it was an outbounder target with
[01:08:31.679] with Paul and Shireen Shoefeld. And I I
[01:08:35.199] hit them. It was it was a I was amazed
[01:08:38.400] at the way it worked. And from then on,
[01:08:40.640] I would prefer to work ERV constantly.
[01:08:44.239] >> Yeah. As I said, it takes about nine
[01:08:46.799] months to be operational, I would think,
[01:08:48.880] for for CRV. And I I I came in Monday
[01:08:53.600] morning and by Monday afternoon, I think
[01:08:55.440] I was operational.
[01:08:56.640] >> Oh my gosh, that's incredible.
[01:08:58.080] >> Yeah. Well, also learned how to CRV,
[01:09:01.520] too, though. So,
[01:09:02.319] >> Sure. Sure. That's a big help. I'm sure
[01:09:04.239] >> I'm probably cheating a bit there.
[01:09:07.359] >> Wow. So, you mentioned you're teaching a
[01:09:09.120] class tomorrow. Are you still doing this
[01:09:10.560] pretty much full-time or is that like
[01:09:13.359] >> I have trained friends. I have several
[01:09:15.359] friends who were CRVers who've come by
[01:09:18.400] and I'll take about a week and we'll do
[01:09:20.799] about a day of class and then we'll work
[01:09:23.920] targets for four days and I'll do about
[01:09:25.920] an hour before each class and bring them
[01:09:29.359] up to speed. Really had pretty good
[01:09:31.520] success. I'm a fact that's I say I
[01:09:35.120] didn't know I didn't teach ERV for the
[01:09:38.080] longest time because I was never taught
[01:09:40.640] it. I just did it. Mhm.
[01:09:42.480] >> Mhm.
[01:09:42.799] >> I used to be the the MC at all the
[01:09:45.920] International Remote Viewing Association
[01:09:48.719] conferences one a year when I wasn't
[01:09:51.440] deployed.
[01:09:53.040] Pam Coronado was president or vice
[01:09:55.920] president of the Irva for a long time.
[01:09:59.600] >> Pam is a psychic detective. You'll see
[01:10:02.320] her on the Discovery Channel or the A&E
[01:10:05.199] channel, whatever. We would do a dog and
[01:10:07.840] pony show about ERB just to keep the
[01:10:10.960] technology alive basically and to keep
[01:10:14.000] the interest and Pam did teach some
[01:10:16.080] courses and we were up in New York. I
[01:10:18.800] think it was about 21. We did this dog
[01:10:21.199] and pony show at the end. Hadn't
[01:10:23.840] prepared it or anything but we went
[01:10:25.600] ahead and and put it out. That was
[01:10:27.920] October. I got a phone call from Pam in
[01:10:31.199] December and said, "Bill, do you want to
[01:10:33.040] teach a ERV course with me?" And I
[01:10:36.880] thought, I said, "Well, okay, Pam, yep,
[01:10:39.760] I can do some research and I can I'll
[01:10:42.080] try to get some of Gene Lesman's work
[01:10:44.000] here." And Pam said, "Well, yep." I
[01:10:47.600] said, "When do you want to do this?" And
[01:10:49.040] she said, "Sunday." And it was like
[01:10:51.199] Wednesday.
[01:10:53.280] I said, "Okay, and we're going to do
[01:10:55.440] it." it was, you know, the the virus. So
[01:10:58.560] I said, "We're going to do it Zoom. How
[01:11:00.719] many how many students do you have?" And
[01:11:02.640] she said, "50." I said, "Well, let's
[01:11:04.880] stop right there." And we did it. The
[01:11:08.080] first one was before Christmas. We did a
[01:11:10.000] two-hour block, basically talking about
[01:11:12.560] meditation, preparing yourself for that
[01:11:14.960] kind of thing. Then we took a two-eek
[01:11:17.120] break, and we gave people a chance to to
[01:11:19.920] do it. The twoe break was Christmas and
[01:11:22.159] New Year's. We brought him back and we
[01:11:24.640] did another two-hour class and I had
[01:11:27.600] worked Sandy on a site and taped it ery
[01:11:31.199] so they could see how a how a session
[01:11:33.280] should go and we did that and then we
[01:11:36.719] gave them a target. The first one we
[01:11:38.640] gave them was the UN building in New
[01:11:40.880] York. And we had
[01:11:45.440] we had some success, more than I
[01:11:48.000] expected we were going to have. And we
[01:11:49.840] gave them another target and we went
[01:11:52.000] over the first target. Everybody had
[01:11:54.719] sent their stuff in and we went over
[01:11:56.880] everybody's 25 people had worked the
[01:11:59.679] target and we went over what everybody
[01:12:02.159] did, what's wrong, what happened. You
[01:12:03.920] know, you were on target but you got off
[01:12:05.760] here. And we did it the next week and we
[01:12:09.360] did it one last time and that last time
[01:12:12.719] 25 people out of 25 got the target. Now
[01:12:17.120] they all didn't stay on target. They
[01:12:20.239] some got it and then looked for
[01:12:22.560] something else which was you know I
[01:12:25.280] think to be expected but about I don't
[01:12:27.760] know maybe six or seven did outstanding.
[01:12:31.760] They found the target. They got the
[01:12:33.520] information. They stayed in the target.
[01:12:35.840] And I think it was a a castle in Greece
[01:12:38.719] that Pam had visited. It was an old, you
[01:12:41.120] know, 2500 years old, but it had a very
[01:12:44.000] modern bookstore there, gift shop. So,
[01:12:47.199] it wasn't an easy target because there
[01:12:49.120] was the the two blend of time there. But
[01:12:52.640] seven people just did amazing. And one
[01:12:54.960] person named John Cook nailed it. So
[01:12:59.840] >> started teaching ERV again.
[01:13:02.080] >> Very cool. Well, yeah,
[01:13:03.040] >> that's a great entree back into it.
[01:13:04.560] >> Yep. So I've had very good good success
[01:13:07.040] mainly with relatives and friends. I'm
[01:13:09.040] not I'm not charging. I'm not looking at
[01:13:11.840] starting a business. I'm just trying to
[01:13:14.320] keep it alive and
[01:13:17.440] CRV's become kind of the darling. And so
[01:13:20.239] and we'll give them an alternate
[01:13:23.199] something different than than CRV.
[01:13:26.719] >> Yeah. Yeah. Totally understandable. It's
[01:13:28.159] it's a fascinating discipline. So other
[01:13:30.320] than that, you're mostly just enjoying
[01:13:32.239] retirement and enjoying your grandkids
[01:13:33.520] now.
[01:13:33.920] >> I was working up to about last year. I
[01:13:37.679] semi bad back from too many too many bad
[01:13:39.920] parachute jumps. Actually, the jumps
[01:13:42.640] were okay. It was the landings that
[01:13:44.320] hurt,
[01:13:46.800] >> right?
[01:13:47.280] >> Yep. My daughter has a in town, we live
[01:13:50.080] in a little village of about a thousand
[01:13:52.080] people and my daughter has a a coffee
[01:13:55.840] sandwich shop. I used to work there, you
[01:13:58.000] know, maybe 10, 15 hours a week to get
[01:14:01.920] out. My wife and I volunteer out at a
[01:14:04.480] rehab facility, alcohol and drug
[01:14:06.719] treatment, so we spend time out there.
[01:14:10.000] >> I'm doing a podcast right now,
[01:14:13.280] >> right?
[01:14:13.679] >> Actually, I don't know how or why, but I
[01:14:16.000] do manage to stay busy.
[01:14:18.640] >> Yeah, clearly. Yeah, you got a lot going
[01:14:20.080] on at all times, it sounds like. Yes,
[01:14:21.760] >> I'm I'm really glad that you were able
[01:14:23.120] to squeeze me in, honestly. I really
[01:14:24.239] appreciate it. that I'm so glad that we
[01:14:26.159] got a chance to talk and uh to maybe
[01:14:29.120] Yeah. offer a little different viewpoint
[01:14:31.440] on on certain things that happened over
[01:14:33.360] the years.
[01:14:34.480] >> Yeah. Yeah. Certainly. Bill, is there
[01:14:36.159] any way for people to kind of keep up
[01:14:37.520] with your your journey or your training
[01:14:38.960] or anything like that now or are you
[01:14:40.239] pretty much low-key like not online?
[01:14:42.000] >> I'm online. I don't do training. Say the
[01:14:45.040] training I'm doing is for friends and
[01:14:47.679] right.
[01:14:48.560] >> Yeah. I don't want to send a bunch of
[01:14:49.600] potential students your way.
[01:14:50.800] >> I'm not looking to get students. I'm not
[01:14:52.719] looking to make any money doing it.
[01:14:54.320] >> Right
[01:14:54.719] >> now, I coached my granddaughter's soccer
[01:14:57.199] team for six seasons.
[01:15:00.080] >> I say I spent a lot of time out at the
[01:15:03.040] alcohol drug treatment facilities. I and
[01:15:06.000] and then I worked with a bunch of high
[01:15:08.000] school and college girls at my
[01:15:09.920] daughter's coffee sandwich shop. I was
[01:15:12.400] thinking when I die, it's my my funeral
[01:15:14.800] is going to be very confusing. I think
[01:15:16.640] they'll there'll be some some old vets
[01:15:19.120] there, some new age people, and then
[01:15:22.159] there'll be a bunch of druggies and
[01:15:24.320] alcoholics hopefully recovering, and
[01:15:26.719] then a bunch of teenage or very young
[01:15:29.360] girls, and
[01:15:30.480] >> Oh, wow.
[01:15:31.280] >> people go to Yeah.
[01:15:33.679] >> Yeah. Everybody's going to be looking
[01:15:34.560] around wondering who everybody else is.
[01:15:36.159] >> Yeah.
[01:15:37.679] >> Dang. Well, that's a pretty good legacy
[01:15:38.880] if all of those different diverse groups
[01:15:40.560] of people are are there to celebrate
[01:15:42.080] you. Well, now I'm saying that then you
[01:15:45.840] there may just be Sandy there and if a
[01:15:49.040] girl's like a jib with the boxes, she
[01:15:50.800] may not even come.
[01:15:51.840] >> Oh my gosh. Right, right, right. Thank
[01:15:54.560] Well, Bill, this has been a great
[01:15:55.679] conversation. I I really appreciate your
[01:15:57.199] time and it sounds like you had an
[01:15:58.800] absolutely fascinating career both in
[01:16:00.640] and out of uniform. No question about
[01:16:02.080] it.
[01:16:02.560] >> A lot of fun. Yep. I didn't cover what
[01:16:04.480] we did in the when I commanded the A
[01:16:06.960] Company 527, but that's maybe save that
[01:16:10.000] for a future podcast.
[01:16:11.440] >> Yeah. Yeah. Maybe a part two one day.
[01:16:12.640] That's We've had people come back on
[01:16:13.920] occasionally, so that's always possible.
[01:16:15.600] >> Okay, that'd be great.
[01:16:17.280] >> Fantastic. Well, thank you so much,
[01:16:18.480] Bill.
[01:16:19.199] >> Okay, thank you, Justin. Pleasure. Very
[01:16:21.520] much.
[01:16:21.760] >> Absolutely. If you're interested in more
[01:16:23.760] of Spycraft 101, look for my page on
[01:16:25.920] Instagram, spycraft 101. You can also
[01:16:28.560] find more great articles on my website,
[01:16:30.320] spycraft101.com.
[01:16:31.920] Thank you all for listening, and I hope
[01:16:33.280] you'll stick around because there's lots
[01:16:34.560] more to come.
[01:16:37.920] Disclaimer:
[01:16:39.920] This podcast is for entertainment
[01:16:42.480] purposes only.
[01:16:45.520] The stories and statements expressed
[01:16:47.360] herein are experiences and opinions.
[01:16:51.120] They may not reflect the views of the
[01:16:53.040] host or the production studio.
[01:16:56.239] It's okay if you disagree with our
[01:16:58.000] content. No piece of media is right for
[01:17:01.040] everyone.
[01:17:02.880] If you love Spycraft 101, please check
[01:17:05.360] us out online, on Instagram, on YouTube,
[01:17:08.480] and especially on Patreon. Thank you for
[01:17:11.520] listening.
[01:17:15.020] [Music]