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Jacques Vallée: Lessons Learned after Lifetime of Investigation

Jacques Vallée: Lessons Learned after Lifetime of Investigation

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TL;DW

Jacques Vallée says his latest Forbidden Science volume will be his final journal but that he is rejoining the French space agency committee responsible for UAP research as its work is restaffed and restarted. He argues that the child-sized beings reported at Trinity, Socorro, Valensole, and Varginha may be Earth-adapted intermediaries rather than the intelligence controlling the craft, and suggests some crashes and recovered tissue could have been deliberately planted as part of a control system. He says he reviewed more detailed material about "Gilbert" but was not present and cannot vouch for the alleged laboratory contact; he also claims crop circles are a British-French weapons experiment, describes an unproduced Raytheon memo about Navy infrared imagery, and calls the unfinished BAASS case warehouse a "bucket of bits." Robert Bigelow says a foundation devoted to consciousness could receive more than $1 billion after his death, while Colm Kelleher describes differing reports from people using the same night-vision device and a door-to-door survey that collected creature accounts around Skinwalker Ranch.

[00:00:01.309] [music]
[00:00:09.170] [music]
[00:00:11.599] Robert, we've got a full house here
[00:00:12.960] today. You know, I think people, some
[00:00:15.200] people describe the current time as the
[00:00:16.880] age of disclosure. It certainly is an
[00:00:18.560] age of transition. And we're going to
[00:00:20.000] hear from today. You're joined by two of
[00:00:21.920] our closest friends and most trusted
[00:00:24.160] colleagues and and the smartest guys we
[00:00:26.160] know. you can introduce your your
[00:00:28.560] colleague here first and then we'll meet
[00:00:30.080] our special guest.
[00:00:30.960] >> Well, this is Dr. Colum Keller. Um he is
[00:00:34.960] going to expand on all of his activities
[00:00:38.719] over the years as different categories
[00:00:40.559] of what he's been involved in. But um
[00:00:43.760] one of the mo very important ones is
[00:00:46.000] that uh 2 or 3 years ago I put together
[00:00:48.640] a revocable trust uh which upon my
[00:00:51.520] passing becomes irrevocable and then I
[00:00:54.719] uh formed uh two 501c3 foundations. One
[00:00:58.559] is a medical foundation and it's fairly
[00:01:00.960] parochial as to what you would expect.
[00:01:03.440] The educational foundation is the other
[00:01:05.280] one and that is not a normal educational
[00:01:08.640] uh traditional kind of format. So the
[00:01:11.840] educational foundation's focus
[00:01:15.040] exclusively
[00:01:16.560] is on the survival of human
[00:01:18.400] consciousness
[00:01:19.920] uh and what consciousness is all about
[00:01:21.600] in that context and it also involves the
[00:01:25.759] consciousness of other uh intelligent
[00:01:28.799] beings uh such as ETSs in particular not
[00:01:32.640] whales or dolphins or anything like that
[00:01:34.960] but ET consciousness as well as human
[00:01:37.360] consciousness the survival of it and so
[00:01:40.240] that is the exclusive mission of the
[00:01:42.799] educational foundation. The importance
[00:01:45.280] of this is that potentially uh the
[00:01:49.040] educational foundation will have over a
[00:01:51.119] billion dollars liquidity uh to use uh
[00:01:55.280] hopefully responsibly
[00:01:57.280] uh in furthering the um the
[00:02:00.640] understanding of human survival and the
[00:02:02.880] understanding of of consciousness and
[00:02:05.439] the understanding of consciousness on
[00:02:07.200] the other side as it pertains to the
[00:02:09.520] universe. and perhaps uh leading to a
[00:02:12.560] supreme conscious consciousness as we
[00:02:15.920] said in an earlier um broadcast a god
[00:02:19.440] force is not that word is not sufficient
[00:02:22.720] as to the power behind what we're
[00:02:24.480] talking about. So in the theory of
[00:02:26.319] everything that solution probably is all
[00:02:30.319] this time that's been latent in in
[00:02:32.560] exposing this disc discussion is
[00:02:35.280] consciousness in the equation and then I
[00:02:38.080] think you would have the theory of
[00:02:39.360] everything you would have a unified
[00:02:40.879] field theory if that were incorporated
[00:02:43.360] into intentionality and the creativity
[00:02:46.319] aspects of things and that's what
[00:02:47.840] consciousness can do. So having said all
[00:02:50.879] that, Colum is um a director. We have
[00:02:54.480] three directors of the of the trust and
[00:02:56.879] of each of the foundations. And Colum
[00:02:58.879] sits on the board of all three.
[00:03:01.040] >> You didn't give him the keys to the bank
[00:03:02.480] accounts.
[00:03:03.120] >> Never. No, not even close. Oh my gosh.
[00:03:05.200] No. That's got iron steel bars on
[00:03:07.200] >> waiting for the election.
[00:03:08.080] >> That's right. That's right. Um so he's
[00:03:11.599] Colum is a very valuable individual all
[00:03:13.680] the way around. and he's he's a really
[00:03:15.360] good thinker and he's uh uh and he'll
[00:03:18.879] explain his background. So, I'm going to
[00:03:20.640] shut up and let him talk.
[00:03:23.280] >> Well, thanks for that very very nice
[00:03:25.120] introduction. Um I was just thinking
[00:03:28.080] that it's been exactly 30 years to the
[00:03:30.720] month
[00:03:31.599] >> since I first joined the National
[00:03:34.080] Institute for Discovery Science. It was
[00:03:35.840] August of 1996. Goes back a long way.
[00:03:39.760] But I was working as a mainstream
[00:03:42.480] immunologist in in the National Jewish
[00:03:45.200] Center in Denver, [clears throat]
[00:03:46.720] background in biochemistry, immunology,
[00:03:49.200] molecular biology, when I I caught sight
[00:03:52.640] of a a really unusual ad in Science
[00:03:55.760] magazine, and the the ad said, "We're
[00:03:59.200] looking for scientists to explore the
[00:04:02.239] evolution and um origin of
[00:04:07.040] consciousness in the universe.
[00:04:09.439] So, this is a in the middle of ads for
[00:04:12.480] molecular biology technicians and this
[00:04:15.120] kind of thing. So, I just couldn't
[00:04:17.120] resist it. I picked up the phone and um
[00:04:21.280] eventually I got talking to Robert
[00:04:23.440] Bigalow, flew out to Las Vegas and um
[00:04:28.800] within a very short period of time I was
[00:04:31.199] hired in August of 1996
[00:04:34.320] and um Robert had just purchased the uh
[00:04:39.600] 500 acre property in northeastern Utah
[00:04:42.560] which became globally renowned as
[00:04:44.800] Skinwalker Ranch. And so within a few
[00:04:48.080] weeks I and two other scientists were on
[00:04:50.720] Skinwalker Ranch. We I think over the
[00:04:54.320] six years I spent about 300 days and
[00:04:57.520] nights on Skinwalker Ranch. Saw a lot of
[00:05:00.720] stuff that I was not you know I was not
[00:05:03.919] able to explain. And then later I think
[00:05:07.520] you guys have already discussed the OSAP
[00:05:09.759] program with DIA. I was um running the
[00:05:14.960] day-to-day operations uh reporting to
[00:05:17.759] Robert Bigalow of the OSAP program. We
[00:05:20.479] had 50 um scientists and technicians and
[00:05:24.560] counter intelligence people, security
[00:05:26.560] people um investigating UFOs. It was the
[00:05:30.720] largest I think UFO program that has
[00:05:34.720] been admitted to in the history of the
[00:05:37.759] UFO phenomenon with respect to the
[00:05:40.160] United States government.
[00:05:42.639] So we spent two and two and a half years
[00:05:45.440] just under two and a half years doing
[00:05:47.039] that. Um we produced about a hundred
[00:05:50.320] separate technical documents that um
[00:05:53.759] very few of which have ever been
[00:05:55.520] released about I think 35 to 38 of those
[00:06:00.240] have been released but the majority of
[00:06:03.199] of our work product has never been
[00:06:05.199] released. And then um after that I was
[00:06:09.440] uh managing the uh life support systems
[00:06:12.560] group at Bigalow Aerospace in charge of
[00:06:16.240] basically 11 different systems that
[00:06:19.039] cumulatively
[00:06:20.639] astronauts use to keep alive in low
[00:06:22.800] earth orbit. And then um since then I've
[00:06:26.400] been with the Bigalow Institute for um
[00:06:29.680] consciousness studies. So, it's been a
[00:06:32.000] long very career uh with Robert Bigalow
[00:06:35.360] and it's been 30 years of extraordinary
[00:06:39.360] fun.
[00:06:40.720] >> Was the still as far as the life support
[00:06:43.360] systems, the still that produced the
[00:06:45.120] excellent whiskey? Was that also
[00:06:47.440] essential?
[00:06:48.000] >> That was the uh that was the sort of the
[00:06:49.919] hidden program we were we had to have
[00:06:52.000] top secret security clearances
[00:06:54.160] >> in order to generate [clears throat] the
[00:06:56.639] uh moonshine.
[00:06:57.520] >> Hardly anybody knew about that.
[00:06:59.199] >> That's right. It's the only way of
[00:07:00.560] keeping astronauts, you know.
[00:07:02.240] >> That's right.
[00:07:02.720] >> Attention and alive.
[00:07:05.280] >> Yeah.
[00:07:06.000] >> We're also joined today by someone else
[00:07:07.599] who was there at the beginning of NIDS
[00:07:09.599] 30 years ago this year. January of 1996.
[00:07:13.120] The science advisory board had its first
[00:07:14.960] meeting here. And I knew the names that
[00:07:18.080] were I walked into this room, I knew a
[00:07:20.240] lot of the names, but there was only one
[00:07:21.680] of the faces I knew and it was Dr.
[00:07:23.120] Jacques Valet. And I was he he uh I I am
[00:07:25.840] an unabashed fan, Jacques. Um, I've I
[00:07:29.039] have an entire shelf of your books. I
[00:07:31.120] think you're you're the best writer and
[00:07:32.720] deepest thinker in the whole topic of
[00:07:34.720] eupfology, but it's your life has been
[00:07:36.720] so much more than that. You know, you
[00:07:39.120] what what' you hand them?
[00:07:40.000] >> This is a photograph of most of the
[00:07:42.000] group at one time that we took of the
[00:07:44.639] science advisory board of NIDS. Jank is
[00:07:47.840] in here
[00:07:48.960] >> along along with with well there are
[00:07:51.759] three or four people that happen to be
[00:07:53.280] missing out of here. Uh some of them one
[00:07:55.840] or two intentionally because they didn't
[00:07:57.599] want to be photographed. [laughter]
[00:07:59.840] >> Well, I think we know who they are.
[00:08:01.680] >> Yeah.
[00:08:03.680] Well, it's a it's a day of transition, a
[00:08:05.759] time of transition for you. Age of
[00:08:07.280] disclosure, but an age of of transition
[00:08:09.599] for you. You're making some moves. Uh,
[00:08:12.160] Forbidden Science is the latest volume
[00:08:14.720] of your journals to come out and it's an
[00:08:17.199] extraordinary account of of your
[00:08:19.440] travels, your interactions with
[00:08:21.199] scientists, investigators, agencies,
[00:08:24.479] uh, your pursuit of cases. Uh, and it I
[00:08:28.160] what I like most about it is you
[00:08:29.759] incorporate what else is going on in the
[00:08:31.520] world. This is not talking about a this
[00:08:33.360] UFO crash or that UFO theory or
[00:08:35.919] something like that. and we'll dive into
[00:08:38.320] as much of this as we can today, but it
[00:08:40.959] kind of represents the uh the end of a
[00:08:43.360] chapter for you. This this is going to
[00:08:44.959] be the last one. Why did you make that
[00:08:46.720] decision or was it hard?
[00:08:48.160] >> It's not the end of my research. It's
[00:08:50.640] the end of my writing because I think
[00:08:54.080] we're at a point, you know, where
[00:08:57.360] certainly two important things have
[00:08:59.839] happened. Uh the first one is you know
[00:09:04.000] we may not call it disclosure but now
[00:09:06.480] it's clear that from the point of view
[00:09:09.279] of authority
[00:09:11.279] both in Washington and in a large part
[00:09:14.080] of the um um
[00:09:17.920] the you know the professors and the
[00:09:20.880] university community that the subject is
[00:09:24.399] recognized as being real. So a page has
[00:09:28.560] a very important page has turned and
[00:09:32.000] this is irreversible. I mean we've we've
[00:09:35.920] changed the the last 70 years you know
[00:09:39.279] are whatever they were but now we're
[00:09:42.000] we're in a new era of research
[00:09:45.920] and we need different tools and
[00:09:47.839] different approaches. So that's the
[00:09:50.720] right time for me to to complete you
[00:09:54.160] know my writing and then to change my
[00:09:56.880] role in this in this new research
[00:10:00.320] environment.
[00:10:01.839] Uh the other thing is that I I've been
[00:10:04.720] asked to rejoin the in France the uh
[00:10:10.080] committee of the French space agency
[00:10:13.839] that is in charge and as you know
[00:10:17.279] has been in charge for a long time
[00:10:19.760] longer than any other country of um
[00:10:23.839] researching this problem. So they've
[00:10:26.640] gone through different phases uh some
[00:10:29.519] more active than others like any
[00:10:32.800] administration in a big in a big country
[00:10:36.160] but um now uh I think they realize that
[00:10:39.760] they can they can do much more now that
[00:10:42.640] the door has been opened you know in the
[00:10:45.200] United States.
[00:10:46.160] >> So because of things that happened here
[00:10:47.839] New York Times story OAP all these all
[00:10:50.480] the material that's now public it
[00:10:53.120] rekindled their interest as well. Well,
[00:10:55.120] they have materials also. They have a
[00:10:58.640] lot of sightings that are still to be
[00:11:01.600] investigated and so on. So the the
[00:11:05.360] research is being staffed, restaffed and
[00:11:08.720] restarted on a on a on a different
[00:11:12.079] basis.
[00:11:13.040] >> So I will be spending more time in in
[00:11:15.279] Paris.
[00:11:15.760] >> And you're not walking away from the
[00:11:17.120] topic. You're just entering a different
[00:11:18.640] phase. But I you know one mistake that
[00:11:22.560] people often make even in science is
[00:11:26.560] there is some big discovery and people
[00:11:29.440] keep doing whatever they were doing
[00:11:31.440] before you know they continue to teach
[00:11:33.920] the same essentially the same thing you
[00:11:36.800] can't do that I mean you know somebody
[00:11:39.120] discover the structure of DNA you know
[00:11:41.839] as calm you both of us have lived
[00:11:44.720] through through that change you know you
[00:11:47.920] have to change what teaching and you
[00:11:50.240] have to change what your lab you have to
[00:11:52.720] change your equipment you have to bring
[00:11:55.040] in new people and you have to think in
[00:11:57.920] different ways so the way I can be
[00:12:01.360] useful now at my advanced age is as a
[00:12:05.440] resource to the younger people coming
[00:12:08.240] into the field
[00:12:10.480] the the people you know of of course
[00:12:13.040] generation and and the new people who
[00:12:16.880] come in now with new PhD ities and and
[00:12:19.920] are ready to to charge and you know at
[00:12:24.240] Stanford um around Dr. Nolan there is a
[00:12:27.680] whole team now of of young people from
[00:12:30.800] different disciplines u and certainly at
[00:12:34.079] Harvard around Dr. Lo and at Colombia.
[00:12:39.120] So uh there is a new generation being
[00:12:41.600] trained. The the challenge to all of us
[00:12:45.839] uh who have you know the the scars you
[00:12:49.519] know and I I can take off my my shirt
[00:12:52.639] and show you the stars which my my scars
[00:12:56.639] which I'm I'm not going to do. But the
[00:13:00.079] um the the challenge is how do we let
[00:13:03.839] them learn about our mistakes and also
[00:13:08.800] about what we think is the case and and
[00:13:12.560] then um break it and change it, you
[00:13:16.160] know. Uh that's the moto in Silicon
[00:13:19.200] Valley, you know, break it and do
[00:13:22.079] something else.
[00:13:24.160] I I before we jump into current events
[00:13:26.320] and predictions for the future, I'm
[00:13:27.920] really curious about the origin story of
[00:13:30.079] Robert and Jacques getting together. I
[00:13:32.079] mean, uh, Robert, obviously you had read
[00:13:34.480] Jacques's some of his books or maybe all
[00:13:36.560] of his books at that point. You're
[00:13:38.160] creating nids around in '95 and then it
[00:13:41.680] got going in '96, but when did you reach
[00:13:44.240] out to him or how did that work? Do you
[00:13:46.240] know? Do you remember?
[00:13:47.519] >> Not exactly. I think I was initially
[00:13:49.519] impressed that that he [clears throat]
[00:13:51.519] was part of Heinik's team. He was a so
[00:13:54.639] close that he and Heinik were very
[00:13:56.720] involved in in the research together.
[00:13:59.279] And Heinek was key. He he had uh inside
[00:14:03.279] access uh to a lot of information and uh
[00:14:07.839] uh Jacques was a was a good he was an
[00:14:10.399] astronomer and a and a uh uh computer
[00:14:13.519] expert computer scientist and uh so um
[00:14:19.040] and and [clears throat]
[00:14:20.639] yeah Heinik put his foot in his mouth
[00:14:22.720] one time about swamp gas and uh uh
[00:14:26.240] that's actually in in Jacques's new book
[00:14:28.800] about we make mistakes.
[00:14:30.560] and that happened to survive him and
[00:14:32.240] live on. Uh but we all learn, you know,
[00:14:36.079] as as as time goes by what what we uh
[00:14:39.600] we're we shouldn't say. Um but that I
[00:14:43.680] think that's the my first interest in
[00:14:45.839] Jacques was he was so well placed with
[00:14:48.720] Jay Allen Heinik.
[00:14:50.240] >> And did you know him? Did you reach out
[00:14:51.920] to him and meet before he created
[00:14:54.480] >> George? I wish I could tell you I knew
[00:14:56.399] exactly how. I have no recollection. Do
[00:14:58.959] you remember Jacques of the first call
[00:15:00.959] you got from Robert?
[00:15:02.639] >> You know, I think this was all coming
[00:15:04.639] together just at the right time, you
[00:15:07.120] know, and uh what what you saw was that
[00:15:12.800] the the the problem was not going to be
[00:15:16.880] solved by by the government. It was not
[00:15:20.720] going to be solved by people in physics
[00:15:23.360] or in one discipline that you really
[00:15:26.160] needed to assemble people from different
[00:15:29.680] different areas including consciousness
[00:15:32.560] because as you know uh when you go to
[00:15:36.320] investigate
[00:15:38.079] a sighting you find people in distress
[00:15:42.560] you know you don't you find I'm not
[00:15:44.560] talking about the military side they may
[00:15:47.519] be in in distress in other ways is
[00:15:50.320] because of the instruments, because of
[00:15:52.240] everything else and the danger that they
[00:15:54.959] are exposed to. But the farmer in the
[00:15:57.600] field, you know, at first he'll just
[00:16:00.160] say, well, it was a light and so on. If
[00:16:02.800] you spend enough time with with him or
[00:16:05.600] his family, then you find that there is
[00:16:08.320] a profound trauma behind what they are
[00:16:12.000] just describing. And this is not
[00:16:14.320] something that I can, you know, that I
[00:16:16.639] can analyze. I can analyze what
[00:16:20.240] psychologists or what biologists, what
[00:16:23.040] medical people, what consciousness
[00:16:25.519] researchers can tell me should go into
[00:16:28.800] the database at some point. And that's,
[00:16:31.680] you know, the road that we've traveled
[00:16:33.680] together.
[00:16:36.079] That's that's maybe the brilliance of
[00:16:37.759] your books and your approach to the
[00:16:39.279] topic is, you know, you start out as an
[00:16:41.040] astronomer looking at data that was
[00:16:42.720] being destroyed and were curious about
[00:16:44.399] why other astronomers wouldn't want to
[00:16:47.360] be studying this. I mean, as you write
[00:16:49.680] in another of your book, the one with
[00:16:51.360] Heinek, uh that's why you're a scientist
[00:16:53.759] is to explore mysteries, things you
[00:16:55.680] don't know. Um, you know, you looked at
[00:16:58.560] the sort of the the organic picture of
[00:17:01.199] it's not just sensor data, photos,
[00:17:03.680] videos, um, crash materials, whatever.
[00:17:06.959] It's how our interaction works, how it
[00:17:09.679] affects us over the long run. The idea
[00:17:11.839] of a control system, right? And that's
[00:17:14.559] one thing that's missing from everything
[00:17:16.559] you see on TV today and most of the
[00:17:19.439] discussion is it's always, you know, who
[00:17:22.559] should be looking at this and and how
[00:17:25.120] does it change and so on. You never talk
[00:17:27.520] about how we're going to be changed by
[00:17:30.880] what we see. You know certainly in
[00:17:33.600] biology I mean the the new generation of
[00:17:37.280] biologists
[00:17:39.120] has been humbled by the you know I
[00:17:43.039] talked to professor Gary Noland at
[00:17:45.679] Stanford you know we work on the the you
[00:17:49.280] know on on the material side of of all
[00:17:52.400] this but we also talk about the
[00:17:54.960] biological side and he is
[00:17:59.039] in you know amazed is in continuous
[00:18:03.120] amazement by what is beyond the genome.
[00:18:07.440] I mean the genome we haven't completely
[00:18:10.640] as as you know better than I do you know
[00:18:13.919] understood what it does
[00:18:16.160] >> but beyond the genome there is a
[00:18:18.400] proteome and there you know all these
[00:18:20.240] other levels and the question is you
[00:18:23.360] know as you said where are the hundreds
[00:18:27.200] of bright young scientists who need to
[00:18:30.240] come into the field to open up all these
[00:18:33.440] new disciplines. It's not just a new
[00:18:36.080] experiment. It's a new field, you know,
[00:18:39.200] at every level. And u we certainly 10
[00:18:43.919] years ago, we didn't have the the tools
[00:18:46.640] to even describe what that was. And uh
[00:18:50.160] now we're beginning to have the tools to
[00:18:53.360] >> to engage it. And we need to do the same
[00:18:57.039] thing with UFOs. We're very late. You
[00:18:59.919] know, we've been set back several times.
[00:19:03.200] And uh now we we just need to to move
[00:19:07.120] forward.
[00:19:08.240] >> I don't I know Robert you don't like to
[00:19:09.919] pat yourself on the back too much but if
[00:19:12.320] you think back to the time when the
[00:19:13.919] three of you were part of NIDS starting
[00:19:15.600] this 30 years ago now uh the profound
[00:19:17.840] changes that are that can directly be
[00:19:19.919] linked to that work. I mean, NIDS
[00:19:21.520] becomes a model for Osap um with no OAP.
[00:19:26.320] There's no ATIP, there's no New York
[00:19:28.000] Times story, there's no Tic Tac case
[00:19:30.160] investigation, none of that stuff. And
[00:19:32.080] the things that are unfolding now, the
[00:19:33.760] changes that are underway started with
[00:19:35.679] you guys here in this building 30 years
[00:19:37.600] ago. We definitely helped.
[00:19:41.280] Well, we, you know, it wasn't exclusive.
[00:19:43.360] The the uh we [clears throat]
[00:19:45.840] we were benefited by some very bright
[00:19:48.160] bright people in our organization and uh
[00:19:51.200] a lot of good researchers were were
[00:19:53.120] there and and also we we tapped into
[00:19:58.000] um other kinds of paranormal activities
[00:20:01.840] that human beings are capable of. Uh
[00:20:04.880] claroyance, precognition, remote
[00:20:07.919] viewing, those kinds of things. Um and
[00:20:10.799] so we tapped into that to get a sense of
[00:20:14.240] what's what how can we understand what
[00:20:17.360] is out there that is of a of a foreign
[00:20:20.559] intelligence that is all telepathic. Uh
[00:20:25.039] I I think it's pretty much 100%
[00:20:27.200] telepathic. I don't know of any any kind
[00:20:30.400] kind of uh conversation that is
[00:20:32.720] otherwise. Uh so so [clears throat] then
[00:20:36.240] thought to try to understand
[00:20:39.039] um what you can do with with thought in
[00:20:41.840] a micro or macro PK kind of situation
[00:20:45.760] for example [clears throat] is is
[00:20:48.480] outside of our our traditional education
[00:20:50.960] in any university is it's not there you
[00:20:53.760] know so where do you go to learn these
[00:20:55.760] kinds of things and so it it was a lot
[00:20:58.240] of fun that's all I remember it as being
[00:21:00.480] an exciting time all the time
[00:21:02.400] >> and same for you column especially once
[00:21:04.159] you once you get to the ranch.
[00:21:05.840] >> Yeah, I I think the National Institute
[00:21:07.520] for Discovery Science was incredibly
[00:21:10.000] valuable in terms of um all of the
[00:21:13.280] experience that we gained over time. I
[00:21:15.919] mean we were very much influenced by you
[00:21:18.320] Jacques because you were part of the
[00:21:19.840] science advisory board and very regular
[00:21:22.720] meetings and you know we we started the
[00:21:25.840] OSAP program with a wealth of experience
[00:21:28.480] that we learned from National Institute
[00:21:30.559] for Discovery Science and we were very
[00:21:33.200] much um looking at the effects of UFOs
[00:21:37.120] on people even as the OSAP program
[00:21:40.559] started and that was because of what we
[00:21:42.880] had learned at at NIDS and you We were
[00:21:45.919] looking at physiological effects of
[00:21:48.320] UFOs. We were looking at psychological
[00:21:50.720] effects and inevitably as Robert has has
[00:21:54.080] said uh paranormal effects. Um so we saw
[00:21:58.159] this as a as a continuum. It was not
[00:22:00.720] only a machine in the sky that was um
[00:22:04.640] performing
[00:22:06.240] all outperforming all of our fighter
[00:22:08.080] jets. it actually had effects on humans
[00:22:11.440] um which could be documented at the
[00:22:13.520] physiological level and even the
[00:22:15.440] psychological level. So um I think the
[00:22:18.880] NIDS experience was very valuable in
[00:22:21.039] starting off the OSAP program.
[00:22:22.880] >> I got to give other people not belonging
[00:22:24.960] to NIDS like Bud Hopkins and John Mack
[00:22:27.760] credit too because we learned a lot from
[00:22:29.840] those guys. you know, we sponsored uh
[00:22:32.320] their work in different ways and uh they
[00:22:35.280] were they were good researchers, really
[00:22:37.200] good.
[00:22:38.159] >> Earlier this year, Stephen Spielberg
[00:22:40.080] came out with his long anticipated uh uh
[00:22:43.280] movie Disclosure Day. Just the title
[00:22:45.200] alone got the UFO world kind of pretty
[00:22:47.520] excited. I was hoping to see the the
[00:22:50.240] character of Lome revisit that film and
[00:22:52.320] and show up. What' you think of the film
[00:22:54.400] and was it appropriate for the time
[00:22:56.159] given that disclosures on it's it's page
[00:22:59.679] one news again it the public is engaged
[00:23:02.320] Congress is asking questions there are
[00:23:04.720] programs that we can get into and talk
[00:23:06.960] about. Um but you had mentioned when we
[00:23:09.919] started the conversation that the page
[00:23:11.520] has turned. Is there no stuffing the
[00:23:13.840] genie back in the bottle from here on
[00:23:15.520] out? And what would disclosure look like
[00:23:17.919] to you? What what needs to be disclosed
[00:23:19.840] to count as disclosure?
[00:23:22.640] What's what's the most interesting thing
[00:23:25.440] to me um in in the new Spielberg movie
[00:23:29.600] is that there are no UFOs. I mean there
[00:23:32.480] is a shape of something at the end but
[00:23:35.120] it's irrelevant because now we we know
[00:23:38.559] they exist and the problem is how do we
[00:23:41.600] deal with that you know on the human
[00:23:44.240] level with all the parasychology things
[00:23:48.159] that all the psychic effects that happen
[00:23:51.039] that we didn't anticipate and and with
[00:23:54.400] all the politics and all the intricate
[00:23:59.440] games that people are going to about it.
[00:24:02.799] So it's it's a very different movie, you
[00:24:06.400] know. Um I think now the
[00:24:13.360] the the the problem is one of
[00:24:16.480] reassessing
[00:24:18.480] what the um you know what the phenomenon
[00:24:22.400] consists of uh on on our terms. And the
[00:24:26.799] the one place where I would bounce the
[00:24:28.799] ball with you is when we use the word
[00:24:32.559] abnormal or paranormal in in the
[00:24:35.679] universe. Maybe it's my you know
[00:24:37.600] training in in astronomy but in the
[00:24:40.559] universe there is nothing abnormal.
[00:24:43.919] Everything is normal. We just don't
[00:24:46.559] recognize it. You know we we didn't know
[00:24:49.200] that there were galaxies outside our
[00:24:51.840] own. We didn't know about, you know,
[00:24:55.039] dark matter. We didn't know about all
[00:24:57.039] those things. And they are not abnormal.
[00:24:59.840] They were there before. Uh they were
[00:25:02.559] there billions of years before. Uh we
[00:25:05.600] just were not aware of them. And that's
[00:25:08.080] going to be the same the same thing with
[00:25:10.240] this, you know, as we get into it. So we
[00:25:13.200] we need
[00:25:15.520] yes we we need to bring in well-trained
[00:25:19.760] people with an open mind but you know
[00:25:22.880] the experience that you know we had with
[00:25:27.440] the the 50 60 people that the two of you
[00:25:31.039] recruited okay to work at bus it took
[00:25:34.960] them two years to really understand the
[00:25:37.520] problem you know they went to Brazil
[00:25:40.000] they didn't understand what they saw in
[00:25:41.840] Brazil Okay. Uh they uh they they were
[00:25:46.960] designing instruments but those
[00:25:48.880] instruments were remember when we had
[00:25:51.600] that session about putting cameras on
[00:25:54.240] the ranch uh to see what would happen to
[00:25:58.240] the the animals if something came in.
[00:26:01.679] And I [clears throat] made the point
[00:26:03.120] that you needed another circle of
[00:26:05.600] cameras to watch the cameras
[00:26:08.000] >> because there is no such thing as a
[00:26:11.039] normal experiment. I mean in the lab you
[00:26:14.640] know you you just need one camera to
[00:26:17.120] watch one experiment. Who knows you know
[00:26:20.320] that experiment could be um changing the
[00:26:23.840] camera could be taking control of the
[00:26:26.400] camera. How many people you know on your
[00:26:29.440] shows uh say I had my camera with me but
[00:26:34.159] the camera didn't work you know or the
[00:26:37.520] uh you know the power supply was was
[00:26:40.720] drained when I wanted to use it. Okay.
[00:26:44.320] Uh so you need to design a a different
[00:26:47.200] generation of instruments that cannot be
[00:26:50.880] fooled by that that will engage a
[00:26:52.880] phenomenon at its level and it's an
[00:26:56.000] intelligent level and it's possibly you
[00:27:00.159] know a level that is very good at
[00:27:03.120] fooling us and maybe it's a game.
[00:27:08.240] Uh hopefully it's a game. Uh maybe it's
[00:27:11.679] u you know it's a danger.
[00:27:16.400] >> Robert, you had a chance to meet with
[00:27:18.000] the president earlier this year. You
[00:27:19.440] gave him some UFO materials. You made a
[00:27:21.360] pitch to him about what he could say,
[00:27:23.600] how he could say it. I I don't know if
[00:27:25.679] that's going to happen or not. Uh I
[00:27:27.600] don't know uh you know it's the age of
[00:27:29.760] disclosure. Disclosure is on the lips of
[00:27:31.600] everyone involved in this topic. But do
[00:27:34.400] you think it would happen? And and
[00:27:36.320] column as a correlary to that, what
[00:27:38.240] would it look like? I mean, I to me the
[00:27:40.240] the public now that's the loudest.
[00:27:43.120] Anything less than show me the bodies
[00:27:44.880] and show me the saucers, the crashes, is
[00:27:47.760] going to fall short. And I just can't
[00:27:50.000] imagine that happening. And I'd be
[00:27:51.760] curious from all three of you, what
[00:27:53.919] would happen if it did? How would the
[00:27:55.760] public react? What would be the effect?
[00:27:58.080] >> I think there there has to be a a
[00:28:00.159] perceived in order for the public to
[00:28:02.159] really be upset [clears throat] after
[00:28:04.399] all that's happened. I think there has
[00:28:06.640] to be a uh some sort of initiation of
[00:28:09.520] threat that would be way beyond anything
[00:28:13.520] that has ever happened in 80 years. Um
[00:28:18.159] as I we've said before, we have much
[00:28:20.320] more to fear from ourselves than we do
[00:28:21.919] from AT up to this point in time. Right?
[00:28:24.960] So it have to be in order for the public
[00:28:26.960] to to uh really I think uh come loose.
[00:28:31.440] It has to be something that
[00:28:34.154] [clears throat] is terrifying that um we
[00:28:38.240] have never seen before and that we would
[00:28:40.159] not anticipate ever happening because I
[00:28:43.120] don't think it's in the best interest of
[00:28:45.600] ETSs themselves
[00:28:47.679] of wasting 80 years of time in the
[00:28:49.919] modern era to expose themselves to do so
[00:28:53.919] many demonstrations to be so involved in
[00:28:56.559] multiple kinds of phenomenal kinds of
[00:28:59.360] activities uh in many in just thousands
[00:29:02.320] of different ways. Um it would be cons
[00:29:05.440] completely inconsistent with all the
[00:29:07.919] past behavior. It would make absolutely
[00:29:10.399] no sense whatsoever. So I think people
[00:29:13.919] underestimate the public's general
[00:29:16.399] capacity to accept and recognize the
[00:29:20.559] uniqueness of what's going on and then
[00:29:22.720] maybe start to have a hunger for
[00:29:24.159] learning more and more about it because
[00:29:27.039] how can there not be enormous curiosity?
[00:29:29.600] And this includes our science
[00:29:31.200] communities, you know, that the the egos
[00:29:34.559] of scientists is insufferable sometimes,
[00:29:37.039] right? So, we know that. So, it's it's
[00:29:40.000] time for them to say, "Yeah, let's open
[00:29:42.640] the brown bag that we've been secretly
[00:29:44.559] having our books in about ETSs and UFOs,
[00:29:47.279] and we're actually going to start a
[00:29:48.799] genuine effort now in our universities
[00:29:51.760] to start to really understand
[00:29:53.200] everything." So I I'm more of an
[00:29:55.679] optimist and and uh and I know Jacques
[00:29:58.240] is an optimist because he said so I am
[00:30:00.159] also.
[00:30:03.120] >> Well I [clears throat] know that um as
[00:30:06.240] as as we look at what the ex the
[00:30:09.360] so-called experiencers have um have
[00:30:12.960] experienced in the close encounter
[00:30:15.919] phenomenon
[00:30:17.679] um and also during the the so-called
[00:30:20.559] abduction phenomenon. There was a lot of
[00:30:23.520] um reported abductions between 1980 and
[00:30:27.039] 2010 that seemed to have gone away
[00:30:29.760] somehow. But talking to those people um
[00:30:33.520] there's a sort of a uh an impact on
[00:30:36.320] their lives and on their psychology
[00:30:39.120] that's very profound and it's very very
[00:30:41.360] different from the um the ability to say
[00:30:46.080] a fighter pilot looking at the tic tac
[00:30:49.200] that's going from sea level to 20,000 ft
[00:30:52.720] in a second. That's a that's a
[00:30:55.360] mechanical device that's uh operating um
[00:30:59.600] beyond the performance of a fighter jet.
[00:31:02.080] But the uh the experiences of some of
[00:31:06.000] the uh the people who have been up close
[00:31:09.600] with these uh intelligences and
[00:31:12.080] non-human intelligence have been very
[00:31:14.559] profound and in some cases disturbing.
[00:31:17.120] And so there's a uh I think you know
[00:31:19.679] there's a phrase onlogical shock that
[00:31:21.919] has been sort of bandied around in the
[00:31:24.000] last few years. I think there's a very
[00:31:26.880] different onlogical shock associated
[00:31:29.440] with being up close and very personal
[00:31:32.960] with an intelligence that is completely
[00:31:35.679] foreign versus watching uh a device
[00:31:39.760] doing a right angle turn at 5,000 mph.
[00:31:43.279] They're two different sort of levels of
[00:31:46.320] experience and I think the uh the
[00:31:49.760] experience of being up close and and you
[00:31:52.559] know very close to the phenomenon is a
[00:31:55.200] lot more disturbing.
[00:31:58.480] >> Sure. Disclosure jock. What what would
[00:32:00.559] it look like? What would and what would
[00:32:02.640] the effect
[00:32:03.200] >> wants disclosure and everybody agrees on
[00:32:06.320] that
[00:32:07.600] >> the the day after disclosure
[00:32:10.799] >> everybody will be fighting on what does
[00:32:14.080] it mean what is it we disclose
[00:32:17.760] >> so we disclose there is a phenomenon
[00:32:19.840] that we we didn't recognize before so we
[00:32:23.679] could agree on that but everybody will
[00:32:26.399] have a different definition and there
[00:32:28.960] are the people who think Those are
[00:32:31.440] aliens like in the movies coming in some
[00:32:34.559] sort of flying saucer. But we've, you
[00:32:37.120] know, only the movies have trained us to
[00:32:40.159] recognize that. There are pe people who
[00:32:42.640] are going to say we should not have
[00:32:44.559] disclosed because it's the devil. The
[00:32:46.799] devil can do this. Okay, that's in in
[00:32:50.080] this book. No. Um there are people who
[00:32:54.720] will say um well it's you know it's
[00:33:00.159] amazing
[00:33:02.080] uh but the we knew that before because
[00:33:07.200] of this tradition or that tradition and
[00:33:09.840] so they will go back to the things that
[00:33:13.120] they've um believed before the books
[00:33:16.720] that they've studied before whether
[00:33:19.600] that's the Bible or the book of Mormon
[00:33:22.720] or the some Chinese
[00:33:26.880] uh book from 5,000 years ago and they
[00:33:32.159] that will be the first thing people will
[00:33:34.240] look for their level of comfort in terms
[00:33:37.360] of you know what about my family what
[00:33:39.919] about my children what about my job you
[00:33:42.640] know how people are asking those
[00:33:45.279] questions about AI now you know what
[00:33:48.240] what will my you know my teenage again
[00:33:51.919] have to learn you know to survive in
[00:33:54.480] that world we'll have that same kind of
[00:33:57.840] question again and I I think we should
[00:34:01.440] be we should anticipate that and give
[00:34:04.399] people sort of we we can't tell them
[00:34:06.720] what what the answer is because we don't
[00:34:09.520] know the answer uh we know we we must
[00:34:14.240] disclose what what's there
[00:34:18.399] the the other question is uh Can we?
[00:34:22.800] Because as the four of us in this room
[00:34:26.320] know, they are classified programs that
[00:34:29.040] are classified for a good reason. And uh
[00:34:33.760] um Dr. Travis Taylor, who is someone I
[00:34:36.960] highly respect, you know, both for his
[00:34:39.760] background and the work he's done and
[00:34:42.240] the work he does on the on the ranch.
[00:34:44.960] Okay. has written a very interesting
[00:34:47.599] little memo where he said he had he has
[00:34:50.720] some active clearances having to do with
[00:34:53.839] space equipment. So he thought uh he
[00:34:58.640] could look at what else was there in
[00:35:02.560] some of the equipment we launch into
[00:35:04.800] space, you know, the the the Ojie, you
[00:35:08.320] know, of those those rockets or those
[00:35:11.040] satellites. And he found that one
[00:35:13.359] particular satellite that was
[00:35:15.119] interesting had something like 15
[00:35:17.839] different classified programs on board,
[00:35:21.440] all belonging to different agencies and
[00:35:24.079] different labs. And there was some
[00:35:26.160] reason everyone was classifying but
[00:35:28.880] those teams were not talking to each
[00:35:31.359] other. There may at the end of the
[00:35:34.320] operation there may be an a place where
[00:35:38.320] all the results can be reassessed you
[00:35:42.320] know but that's not at his level and and
[00:35:46.079] uh we cannot get those clearances. All
[00:35:48.400] of us have been cleared you know for the
[00:35:51.680] for the BAS program. Uh I wasn't clear
[00:35:55.680] for the name. I you know I discovered it
[00:35:59.440] was called AAP. You know I discovered
[00:36:02.079] that by reading the Wall Street Journal.
[00:36:04.400] You know I I thought of it as a bass
[00:36:07.200] program. Okay. All the time I was you
[00:36:10.160] know working for you.
[00:36:11.200] >> Well you knew we were on a fishing
[00:36:12.640] expedition didn't you? That's why bass
[00:36:15.280] right? [laughter]
[00:36:16.480] >> Yes. So uh you know those things uh
[00:36:20.720] there are good reasons why those things
[00:36:23.280] are kept you know behind some so uh who
[00:36:27.599] is going to open up all those things and
[00:36:30.720] isn't there a danger that people will
[00:36:33.280] say well you know we don't trust you we
[00:36:37.520] knew about this for 80 years you know
[00:36:40.079] now you you you agree that it's real but
[00:36:44.240] you don't give us all the information
[00:36:46.640] and also So if what we disclose is that
[00:36:51.040] this is actually going on, UFOs are real
[00:36:54.240] and the beings are real and I go to some
[00:36:57.920] place in Montana or Arkansas where I've
[00:37:00.960] done investigation before. I go back to
[00:37:03.920] see this farmer and I tell him, you
[00:37:06.720] know, Bill, you know, uh, this now the
[00:37:10.560] big secret is out that those things are
[00:37:13.200] real and they can they have physical
[00:37:15.680] things and and they they are creatures
[00:37:18.640] associated with it. He'll say, "Jac,
[00:37:21.200] you're crazy. I mean, I told you that 15
[00:37:23.680] years ago when you came to my farm, I
[00:37:26.400] showed you the traces. some of the
[00:37:28.560] traces are still there, you know, and uh
[00:37:33.440] you know, I saw these beings. I already
[00:37:35.599] know that. And there are thousands, if
[00:37:39.359] not hundreds of thousands of people in
[00:37:42.320] this country and more around the world
[00:37:45.680] who already know that those things are
[00:37:47.760] real. They're physical and they make an
[00:37:50.240] imprint on the ground. They have
[00:37:52.400] radiation. they can do certain things
[00:37:55.359] and and and there are forms of life
[00:37:57.839] associated with them. We already know
[00:38:00.079] that. So what is disclosure? What's the
[00:38:04.079] content of the disclosure?
[00:38:06.960] That's that's a very important question
[00:38:09.520] for you know people in Washington to
[00:38:12.160] think through.
[00:38:14.160] >> I think the people in UFO world anything
[00:38:16.560] short of show me the bodies they're
[00:38:18.560] going to be griping and moaning as they
[00:38:20.320] do about pretty much everything. Um, and
[00:38:22.560] I can't imagine that um, anybody's going
[00:38:25.119] to open up the hanger, here's the flying
[00:38:26.800] saucers that that have crashed and and
[00:38:28.480] and make that announcement. So, it'll
[00:38:30.720] continue to be uh, you know,
[00:38:33.040] controversial, I guess. Uh, Robert, you
[00:38:35.040] met with the president in early
[00:38:36.640] February. Weeks later, he starts
[00:38:38.640] releasing stuff. He, you know, you can
[00:38:40.480] quibble about the quality of the
[00:38:42.000] information that's been made public, but
[00:38:43.920] the process itself is is pretty
[00:38:45.680] important. I I think you can make the
[00:38:47.359] argument, Jo, that that disclosure in a
[00:38:49.440] sense has happened because it's the
[00:38:51.200] stigma that you started describing in
[00:38:53.359] Forbidden Science One in the journals
[00:38:55.599] that you started writing in the late
[00:38:57.599] 50s. It's changed. It's changed a lot.
[00:39:00.640] Congress is having hearings and and
[00:39:03.040] asking questions, closed door briefings,
[00:39:05.280] and uh major media after the New York
[00:39:07.760] Times that it kind of dropped off a
[00:39:09.359] little bit, but major media have covered
[00:39:11.200] it. And you have organizations like Saul
[00:39:13.520] with Gary Nolan at Stanford, Galileo
[00:39:15.839] with Abby Loe at Harvard.
[00:39:18.880] Forbidden science isn't quite as
[00:39:20.400] forbidden anymore, is it? And um there's
[00:39:24.480] a lot happening also, you know, in in
[00:39:27.760] Texas with the the department of
[00:39:30.720] religion at Rice, you know, looking at
[00:39:33.760] all this and they have all my archives.
[00:39:35.920] >> Archives of the impossible. Yeah. uh
[00:39:37.599] that has triggered a number about 12
[00:39:40.960] other researchers to donate their
[00:39:43.839] archives now to to Rice University. So
[00:39:47.680] it's going to become a reserve a
[00:39:50.320] resource for those generations of of new
[00:39:54.480] new researchers and the access has to be
[00:39:58.079] really controlled very well so that it
[00:40:01.040] doesn't just become another you know
[00:40:03.119] another series of of of of
[00:40:06.720] stories that uh they have to be able to
[00:40:09.760] dive into it but the information is
[00:40:12.400] there in all its different aspects. you
[00:40:16.000] know, you see the public again focusing
[00:40:18.400] on the bodies, the crashes, that's what
[00:40:20.480] we want to see. Anything less, we're
[00:40:21.920] going to be disappointed. And but in the
[00:40:24.160] larger UFO world, the world
[00:40:25.920] consciousness keeps creeping in. I don't
[00:40:27.920] think a lot of people really understand
[00:40:29.440] how the two are connected. But um that's
[00:40:33.280] where you guys started. That's where NID
[00:40:35.119] started. The dual purposes to study
[00:40:37.119] consciousness. Does it survive physical
[00:40:38.880] death and the study of UFOs? And it's
[00:40:41.359] really
[00:40:42.880] inextricably linked the two, right?
[00:40:45.920] >> Yeah. Well, Colum can remember we had
[00:40:49.040] Ian [clears throat] Stevenson on our
[00:40:50.320] board and Emily Cook and Bruce Grayson
[00:40:52.880] and they were totally focused on just
[00:40:55.040] conscious survival of consciousness and
[00:40:57.440] we had to make a decision as a group. We
[00:41:00.000] came to a point to where we realized
[00:41:02.173] [clears throat] to undertake both of
[00:41:04.079] these at the same time was so huge and
[00:41:06.880] we weren't prepared really at at that
[00:41:08.800] point in time. We we uh we we knew that
[00:41:13.963] [clears throat]
[00:41:14.560] we might be equipped to try to undertake
[00:41:16.800] one of them and try to do something
[00:41:19.200] well, but at the time we we doubted we
[00:41:21.760] could take both. So we concentrated on
[00:41:24.319] the ETUFO subject and that was kind of
[00:41:26.960] by a vote among among uh the majority of
[00:41:29.599] of the folks realized that they had most
[00:41:32.720] of the people attending
[00:41:35.599] those meetings had personal reasons for
[00:41:39.359] being interested uh or because of
[00:41:42.079] members of their family or perhaps
[00:41:44.000] themselves uh having some kind of
[00:41:46.800] personal interest in in the subject. So,
[00:41:49.680] I think that was a a significant push uh
[00:41:53.520] to uh encourage them to make a decision
[00:41:55.760] one way or the other.
[00:41:56.800] >> Well, it feels like it's come full
[00:41:58.079] circle, right? The the things that you
[00:41:59.680] guys started, the two dual mysteries
[00:42:02.480] long ago are now intertwined again in
[00:42:04.800] the public mind.
[00:42:06.079] >> Yeah, I think it's getting more so uh as
[00:42:08.400] time goes on. We've got sort of um more
[00:42:12.079] and more evidence that's that are coming
[00:42:14.480] out that um there are a subset of for
[00:42:18.640] example people with near-death
[00:42:20.240] experiences that interact with non-human
[00:42:22.640] intelligence and there are people who
[00:42:25.040] have gone through the so-called
[00:42:26.560] abduction experiences who likewise have
[00:42:30.240] encountered
[00:42:32.000] um you know um dead people and so so
[00:42:36.800] it's kind of like this very strange kind
[00:42:40.319] of merging that's going on, but there's
[00:42:42.640] more evidence as time goes on. Um, and
[00:42:45.599] one of the other things regarding UFOs
[00:42:47.680] and consciousness is that a quite a few
[00:42:51.280] of our experiences on Skinwalker Ranch
[00:42:54.480] um had to do with um how consciousness
[00:42:58.480] perceives these UFOs. We had a very
[00:43:01.680] interesting experience, you and I, with
[00:43:03.839] a group of other people during the OSAP
[00:43:06.079] program where we were all looking at
[00:43:08.160] night vision through night vision
[00:43:10.000] binoculars at an object and then at the
[00:43:13.760] debriefing later, everybody reported
[00:43:17.680] seeing something different.
[00:43:19.069] [clears throat]
[00:43:19.680] So it was almost like the the the
[00:43:22.000] perception of people through exactly the
[00:43:24.880] same uh generation three night vision
[00:43:28.480] binoculars was u was different and um so
[00:43:33.359] how do you explain that with respect to
[00:43:36.000] perception and consciousness? Everybody
[00:43:38.640] seemed to be seeing something different
[00:43:41.040] >> and it's [clears throat] even more than
[00:43:43.040] that which we hesitate to talk about
[00:43:45.680] because it's not believable.
[00:43:48.160] And it's causal.
[00:43:50.240] So, it's not just um sending you a
[00:43:52.960] telepathic message of some sort,
[00:43:55.839] but it doesn't matter where you are.
[00:43:58.370] [clears throat] It can cause things to
[00:44:00.160] happen unexpectedly.
[00:44:03.119] And you think the [clears throat]
[00:44:06.160] the impetus of that causal effect was a
[00:44:11.119] human being initiating something and
[00:44:13.599] then you realize because of
[00:44:14.960] circumstances that's not what happened.
[00:44:18.319] That's not what happened. They initiated
[00:44:20.480] it and and it could have been um minutes
[00:44:24.800] or hours or something after something
[00:44:26.560] else happened and decisions were made
[00:44:29.200] and then events fell into place and it's
[00:44:32.400] like wait a minute how can this how can
[00:44:34.400] these things serendipitously fall into
[00:44:37.359] place that happens to be exactly along
[00:44:39.680] the path that you would want it to to
[00:44:41.440] occur.
[00:44:43.200] I had mentioned Lcom, the character of
[00:44:45.200] Lcom. I should explain to our listeners
[00:44:47.040] who are maybe younger than us that it's
[00:44:48.720] the French scientist character in in
[00:44:50.880] Steven Spielberg's Close Encounters of
[00:44:52.640] the Third Kind, which is modeled after
[00:44:54.560] you and your life. And Lome in that
[00:44:57.040] movie and his his team are trying to get
[00:44:59.119] their head around this mystery of what
[00:45:01.200] seemed to be ETS from other planets. The
[00:45:03.760] one lasting thing that people remember
[00:45:05.599] from your work in your book is all
[00:45:07.839] right, they may be alien to us, but
[00:45:09.520] they're not necessarily ETSs, right? and
[00:45:12.000] and that's still where you are. We we
[00:45:13.920] Does anybody know for sure what they
[00:45:16.880] are?
[00:45:19.119] >> Um I you're touching on something that
[00:45:23.839] concerns concerns me and I want to hear
[00:45:27.839] you know what what you think about that.
[00:45:30.960] um
[00:45:32.720] you know if suppose we disclose that we
[00:45:36.240] have biologics we we show and I think at
[00:45:41.440] this point they're looking at slides of
[00:45:43.599] tissue that we've had for you know 30
[00:45:48.800] years or more that
[00:45:52.319] there there are I believe but I'm not
[00:45:56.880] breaching any great secret because I I
[00:45:59.520] have not been cleared for any of that.
[00:46:02.160] But I I certainly trust the people who
[00:46:04.880] say that there are bodies that have been
[00:46:07.920] recovered. And as you know, I've looked
[00:46:10.160] at the the Trinity case, you know, two
[00:46:13.760] years before Roswell where we we know
[00:46:16.720] exactly what happened.
[00:46:18.880] We know what happened in the days of
[00:46:21.520] after the the actual crash and we know
[00:46:25.119] that there were live creatures there and
[00:46:28.319] we don't know where they went. So the
[00:46:32.160] already in 1945 there could have been a
[00:46:34.880] lot of biological information that could
[00:46:37.680] be acquired right there. Okay. The
[00:46:40.960] question is, you know, when we and again
[00:46:45.040] I'm I'm more of an information scientist
[00:46:47.760] than a computer scientist. So I look at
[00:46:50.480] patterns of things. I don't look at
[00:46:52.800] cases one by one. You know, I I look at
[00:46:56.000] Trinity and then I look at Sakuro and I
[00:46:59.440] look at Valencol and now I look at, you
[00:47:02.640] know, what James James Fox has done in
[00:47:05.359] Brazil in Virginia. Okay. Um the the
[00:47:10.240] entities there you have a dozen entities
[00:47:12.880] you know uh three at Trinity two at
[00:47:16.640] Sakuro two at Valencol I've been at
[00:47:19.599] Valencol I've spoken to the the
[00:47:22.640] witnesses
[00:47:24.480] because they were more than one contrary
[00:47:27.599] to what was reported to the police. Um,
[00:47:32.720] and uh, I never met the witness at
[00:47:36.880] Sakoro, but I've spoken to other of the
[00:47:40.000] people who were there, and I was
[00:47:42.240] following the the study with Dr.
[00:47:45.040] Heinneck at the time. I did all the the
[00:47:47.760] the the back home um organization for
[00:47:52.880] the data he was bringing back from
[00:47:55.520] Soooro and we analyzed that together. So
[00:47:58.800] I have data and as you know I've spent a
[00:48:01.520] lot of time at Trinity you know in close
[00:48:04.960] to Trinity
[00:48:06.720] um talking to the witness the main
[00:48:10.319] witness and the other witnesses
[00:48:12.880] the the beings were breathing air. Now
[00:48:17.520] tell me you know who comes from another
[00:48:20.240] part of the galaxy and just breathes air
[00:48:23.200] and walks normally. you know, our
[00:48:25.680] astronauts don't walk normally on the
[00:48:27.839] moon. They bounce up and down, you know,
[00:48:30.720] in a certain way. They've been trained
[00:48:33.599] to do that. Um the uh they they don't
[00:48:39.119] have any the you know these creatures
[00:48:41.839] all these creatures across all those
[00:48:44.400] cases are about the size of a you know
[00:48:48.880] 10 12 year old kid. Okay. uh they have
[00:48:53.200] two legs and two arms. The the arms are
[00:48:56.160] a little bit different from ours. Maybe
[00:48:58.800] the fingers are a little bit different,
[00:49:00.960] but you can read the expressions on
[00:49:03.040] their faces and there is psychic
[00:49:05.599] transmission. You know, you were talking
[00:49:07.680] about the psychic impact. The kids, you
[00:49:11.280] have two kids there, nine and seven.
[00:49:14.079] Okay. The nine-year-old knows that there
[00:49:18.000] are crashes of all kinds of things in
[00:49:20.000] New Mexico. Okay. uh because the pilots
[00:49:23.599] misunderstand the altitude and how they
[00:49:26.319] have to climb and the the density of the
[00:49:28.960] air. So they they hit a mountain and
[00:49:31.280] they crash. So the landscape is littered
[00:49:33.760] with remains of aircraft that somebody
[00:49:36.800] finds 10 years later. Okay. So he knows
[00:49:40.000] that he they have to help immediately if
[00:49:43.680] they can the the pilot or whatever it is
[00:49:46.800] and they have to go get help. Okay. He
[00:49:50.240] can't move because he's fascinated by
[00:49:53.760] what he sees and he's afraid. So, he's
[00:49:57.760] torn and we've interviewed him again and
[00:50:00.960] again and again, you know, about this.
[00:50:03.599] And I I I'm trained in analyzing
[00:50:06.640] transcripts, you know, for my work on
[00:50:08.960] the internet. And you can see when on
[00:50:11.680] the transcript you can see when people
[00:50:15.040] ch change the tense of the words they
[00:50:19.040] say well I was there because my father
[00:50:21.920] sent me there and I looked at it and I
[00:50:24.720] left the horse there and they there they
[00:50:28.160] are and I am looking at them. So he's
[00:50:31.520] got from the tense to the present in the
[00:50:34.480] middle of a sentence
[00:50:36.640] he's there. He is now re livingiving the
[00:50:41.040] actual experience and he says they're
[00:50:43.839] looking at me. They are putting things
[00:50:45.760] in my mind. I want to help them. I know
[00:50:49.839] you know it's my duty to help them but I
[00:50:53.520] I I
[00:50:55.119] you know and and then Remy is crying and
[00:50:57.520] he says you go there if you want but I I
[00:51:01.359] I I want no part of it. I don't want to
[00:51:03.760] get anywhere close. So the two these two
[00:51:07.520] kids
[00:51:09.119] are both completely under you know the
[00:51:12.720] scene and they they react in very
[00:51:15.599] different way that that's the richness
[00:51:18.640] of the experience you know that you get
[00:51:20.960] from from that kind of close encounter
[00:51:23.280] and you have to go there and you have to
[00:51:25.680] interview them and reinter them and and
[00:51:28.480] and do that to understand what's going
[00:51:31.040] on. So the yes uh we can disclose you
[00:51:36.480] know these creatures what we know some
[00:51:39.359] of the biologics we even know you know
[00:51:42.480] some of the the organs and so on from
[00:51:45.760] prior disclosures that are in in the
[00:51:49.440] books in the press or that biologists
[00:51:52.079] have looked at. What about the
[00:51:55.359] controllers? I mean these beings were
[00:51:57.680] not in control of the craft.
[00:52:02.319] So, who's controlling the craft? Now, we
[00:52:05.280] need to go to the other level and that's
[00:52:08.240] where we get to the psychic
[00:52:10.000] communication that's going on. And I'm
[00:52:13.280] not sure that, you know, is a subject of
[00:52:16.240] disclosure because we just don't know
[00:52:18.640] enough about that. And that's been going
[00:52:21.440] on for a long time. Attempts to
[00:52:24.079] communicate, you know, on on a psychic
[00:52:27.520] level. And you know there we go into
[00:52:30.480] what kind of consciousness do they
[00:52:32.880] represent compared to our consciousness.
[00:52:38.319] Column mentions the possibility of
[00:52:40.240] onlogical shock depending on on dis
[00:52:43.200] disclosure how it's disclosed what gets
[00:52:45.359] disclosed. I think there's an element of
[00:52:48.480] our societies uh that would freak out no
[00:52:50.720] matter what gets disclosed. But how do
[00:52:52.880] you how do you disclose it? You could
[00:52:55.200] say, "Here's the bodies. Here's the
[00:52:56.400] craft." But we really don't know where
[00:52:57.920] they're from or why they're here or how
[00:52:59.280] long they've been here or what their
[00:53:00.559] relationship is with us. I can see
[00:53:02.480] people freaking out about the kinds of
[00:53:04.000] things you guys all learned at the
[00:53:05.280] ranch. Whatever it is, it it is
[00:53:08.240] precognitive. It knows what you're going
[00:53:09.920] to do before you do it. It's invisible.
[00:53:12.480] You see it only when it allows you to
[00:53:14.319] see it. It's not predictable. Everything
[00:53:16.079] it does is different. It's among you.
[00:53:18.240] It's like Santa Claus. It knows where
[00:53:19.920] you've been sleeping and you've been bad
[00:53:21.440] or good. And uh
[00:53:24.400] it might be more frightening that they
[00:53:26.400] live here, that they breathe air,
[00:53:28.160] they've always lived here among us, than
[00:53:30.000] the idea of aliens from other ETs from
[00:53:32.319] other planets. They've been here all
[00:53:34.000] this time, they're among us, and we
[00:53:35.599] don't get to see them. I think people
[00:53:37.280] would freak the heck out.
[00:53:39.599] I I think the the whole process of
[00:53:42.160] disclosure as it's happened since I
[00:53:45.119] think it was June 2021 when the ODNI
[00:53:47.839] first had the press conference saying
[00:53:50.480] yes UFOs are real which I thought was a
[00:53:53.599] turning point. I think we all thought it
[00:53:55.280] was a turning point because it's no
[00:53:57.920] longer that the witnesses were
[00:53:59.760] intoxicated or they were imagining
[00:54:02.079] things. Now suddenly we have the ODNI
[00:54:05.119] coming out saying that these are real
[00:54:07.599] and that the performances uh cannot be
[00:54:11.119] explained by our what we have or what
[00:54:14.559] our adversaries have. So that in itself
[00:54:18.319] was a landmark in my opinion that where
[00:54:22.000] where the game did change. And so the
[00:54:25.680] next part of it um it gets obviously
[00:54:28.559] messier and messier as you start talking
[00:54:31.040] about creatures and um the ability to uh
[00:54:35.920] telepathically communicate and uh all of
[00:54:39.599] that it gets messier. But as a
[00:54:41.440] stagebystage process, I think what has
[00:54:44.079] happened with uh with the OD O ODNI
[00:54:47.520] disclosure plus the um the five tranches
[00:54:51.760] of data that President Trump has
[00:54:54.160] released in the last um short period of
[00:54:57.359] time that is certainly putting it on the
[00:55:00.640] radar for certainly a lot of scientists
[00:55:03.920] that normally would have dismissed this
[00:55:06.079] whole thing. And you know, Jacques,
[00:55:08.160] you've you've talked already about sort
[00:55:10.160] of there's the genesis of small teams at
[00:55:13.440] Harvard University, Stanford University,
[00:55:16.160] Colombia. I mean, once you've got
[00:55:18.480] graduate students and post-doal fellows
[00:55:22.240] and assistant professors who are
[00:55:24.880] actually doing the grunt work in in
[00:55:27.280] research, once you've got those engaged,
[00:55:30.160] I think you're creating a an
[00:55:32.400] infrastructure that's very very
[00:55:34.559] difficult to stop. So, so that whole
[00:55:36.960] thing I think is already underway. So,
[00:55:40.160] disclosure I think is already happening
[00:55:43.040] and it can happen in stages. I don't
[00:55:46.160] think it would be beneficial to suddenly
[00:55:49.119] dump everything on the public. Um, I
[00:55:53.200] think the process that's underway seems
[00:55:55.680] to be an organic process that that is
[00:55:58.160] actually working. Mhm.
[00:56:00.240] >> But you mean the really big questions,
[00:56:01.680] is there anybody that knows? I mean, you
[00:56:04.480] guys have been at this a long time.
[00:56:05.920] You've got clearances, top secret
[00:56:07.599] security clearances. You've had access
[00:56:09.520] to all kinds of files and materials and
[00:56:11.680] people. I I've never heard any of you
[00:56:14.400] hint that there's anybody who knows for
[00:56:16.079] sure what the answers to this stuff is.
[00:56:17.680] Your your version of a control system,
[00:56:19.680] >> no,
[00:56:20.240] >> goes so far, but doesn't say who the
[00:56:22.640] controllers are, the ultimate
[00:56:23.839] controllers. you know, in in science,
[00:56:27.040] people tell me, and you know, that's
[00:56:29.280] that's fair. They say, you know, how do
[00:56:32.720] you feel about the fact that you're
[00:56:34.240] going to die without knowing what it
[00:56:36.960] really is? Well, in in science, you
[00:56:40.079] know, I mean, pastor was a great
[00:56:43.440] biologist, but he died without knowing
[00:56:46.319] about the DNA. Okay? He never never knew
[00:56:49.359] there was such a thing. He knew there
[00:56:51.359] was heredity so on and he knew that but
[00:56:54.880] and and that's always true you know I
[00:56:57.839] mean many of the astronomers who were my
[00:57:01.280] professors died without knowing about
[00:57:04.400] the things that we're looking at now in
[00:57:07.760] you know beyond our galaxy you know and
[00:57:11.599] uh those are um
[00:57:15.599] um you know that's the way that's the
[00:57:18.319] way science is In researching Trinity, I
[00:57:23.920] went back to what happened in Japan at
[00:57:27.040] the end of the war. Okay? Because, you
[00:57:30.720] know, because of the bomb, these people
[00:57:32.960] were 25 miles from the bomb. Nobody told
[00:57:36.799] them. Um, and we we we say in in school,
[00:57:42.319] you know, that there was a test of an
[00:57:44.000] atomic bomb in Trinity, right? You can't
[00:57:47.520] test an atomic bomb. Either it blows up
[00:57:50.160] or it doesn't. Okay? If it blows up,
[00:57:53.599] it's it's a real atomic bomb. And there
[00:57:57.520] are scientists who were there who were
[00:58:00.319] looking at at the explosion, you know,
[00:58:02.880] through filters and so on. But they were
[00:58:05.280] within a few miles of the explosion. And
[00:58:08.480] they they monitored, you know, the time
[00:58:11.119] and the power. And they saw, you know,
[00:58:14.079] the explosion and they saw one cloud and
[00:58:16.960] then it went up. There was another cloud
[00:58:19.680] and then it went up and there was
[00:58:21.440] another cloud at the top of the
[00:58:24.079] atmosphere. It was at least four times
[00:58:28.400] more powerful than what they had
[00:58:30.720] computed. Okay. The their best
[00:58:33.280] calculations.
[00:58:34.799] And so a factor of four, you know, in
[00:58:37.599] science that's fair. You know that's uh
[00:58:40.799] if you're within a factor of four of of
[00:58:43.359] the answer that's okay because you have
[00:58:46.559] something you can refine you can go back
[00:58:50.079] we need to do now
[00:58:51.119] >> so shock I I [clears throat] don't
[00:58:52.799] understand how they could have guessed a
[00:58:55.040] factor of four I was like 15 megat tons
[00:58:57.119] instead of the four or five that they
[00:58:58.799] expected right how could they screw up
[00:59:01.440] that so much how how did that happen
[00:59:05.440] how did they over how did they so so
[00:59:07.599] significantly underestimate estimate the
[00:59:09.839] power of what they had just created.
[00:59:12.559] >> There was no precedent. You know, most
[00:59:15.280] of the physics community thought you
[00:59:17.359] could not blow up the bomb that it was a
[00:59:21.599] a failed idea that it would it would not
[00:59:26.160] ignite and it would not expand.
[00:59:29.520] >> So, it's not a linear relationship,
[00:59:31.280] >> not start the reaction inside that.
[00:59:34.880] So it's not connected just to the mass
[00:59:37.119] the the the amount of weight of the mass
[00:59:39.680] of plutonium. It was it was some other
[00:59:42.079] factor. So that alone wasn't enough to
[00:59:44.240] dictate. So it's more than just a linear
[00:59:46.880] progression of of expansion. The
[00:59:49.359] question is, will the the energy be
[00:59:52.319] enough to create the kind of particles
[00:59:56.000] that will themselves
[00:59:59.200] ignite the you know the the fistal
[01:00:02.480] material and get it to the critical the
[01:00:06.799] critical stage. And most of the people
[01:00:09.760] who did the calculation thought, you
[01:00:12.000] know, gave up on the idea of building a
[01:00:14.240] bomb because they felt it would never
[01:00:16.799] work.
[01:00:18.480] And there were those who worried that it
[01:00:19.839] would never stop, right? The explosion
[01:00:21.440] might keep on going,
[01:00:22.880] >> you know. So [clears throat]
[01:00:24.720] until you do the experiment, you don't
[01:00:26.799] know how powerful it it was going to be.
[01:00:30.160] Um, and they, you know, there were
[01:00:34.240] reasons why they couldn't tell the
[01:00:37.839] people who were there. there were about
[01:00:40.160] 80,000 people in all those, you know,
[01:00:43.280] little farms and, you know, cattle
[01:00:46.000] ranches and know around and those little
[01:00:49.359] towns. Um,
[01:00:51.760] and I've those people, you know, I went
[01:00:55.040] to interview
[01:00:57.520] one of them because he could validate
[01:01:01.280] what our witnesses were saying about
[01:01:04.720] what they found because he had seen
[01:01:07.200] those filaments. So he had seen that
[01:01:09.119] material and he could testify about
[01:01:11.520] that. Uh and we it was difficult to get
[01:01:16.400] access you know as with many witnesses
[01:01:19.680] who really don't want to go over the
[01:01:22.640] whole thing. Most people don't talk
[01:01:24.799] about what they've seen. Okay. You have
[01:01:27.040] to to go and gain their confidence.
[01:01:31.839] That's part of human nature. People
[01:01:34.640] don't tell the truth to the cops because
[01:01:37.839] there are things, you know, the the the
[01:01:40.640] witness in Valencol didn't tell the
[01:01:43.520] truth about what else he knew because he
[01:01:47.440] wanted to go back. He thought there had
[01:01:50.160] been some transmission with the beings
[01:01:52.880] there were, you know, very similar to
[01:01:57.119] the bu to the beings at Trinity. and he
[01:02:01.680] felt that uh he could engage them on one
[01:02:05.599] of his other properties where he had
[01:02:08.559] noticed some things being disturbed.
[01:02:11.839] So he wasn't going to tell that to the
[01:02:13.920] cops. And since he had been a hero in
[01:02:17.280] the French resistance, the cops were at,
[01:02:20.559] you know, we assume that when you're
[01:02:22.319] interrogated by, you know, a CIA agent
[01:02:26.000] or by, you know, an officer the false
[01:02:29.680] that, oh yes, you know, you you you tell
[01:02:32.319] the truth and you sign your name and so
[01:02:34.319] on.
[01:02:35.680] >> That's not necessarily true. There are
[01:02:38.640] first there are things that the
[01:02:39.920] witnesses don't don't realize that you
[01:02:44.480] know we are training ourselves to help
[01:02:47.280] them get accommodated to that and
[01:02:50.400] recognize it and maybe you know convey
[01:02:54.160] it to us. But there are things also that
[01:02:57.520] are just too shocking for people to and
[01:03:00.799] that's well known you know in the
[01:03:02.480] computer field. A computer is much
[01:03:04.319] better at for example uh interviewing a
[01:03:08.559] a patient than a nurse or a doctor
[01:03:13.119] because there are things that you know
[01:03:15.039] the doctor is you know
[01:03:19.119] human like me. Uh we all have faults and
[01:03:22.880] we all have you know uh things that we
[01:03:28.000] may not admit to ourselves or or
[01:03:30.880] problems we go through
[01:03:33.599] that may be part of the illness but
[01:03:36.400] we're not going to disclose that because
[01:03:39.920] he's going to think that's irrelevant
[01:03:42.079] and and maybe it is irrelevant. So after
[01:03:46.559] the testimony, you have to go back, you
[01:03:50.000] know, sit down at the dining table with
[01:03:52.400] the family,
[01:03:54.240] have a meal with them, tell them, I tell
[01:03:57.280] them about my experience. So now they
[01:04:00.480] know, you know, there are things about
[01:04:02.240] my experience that I don't understand.
[01:04:05.440] I'm still, you know, 60, 70 years later,
[01:04:08.960] I'm still trying to decode it. You know,
[01:04:13.680] >> witnesses will also leave stuff out
[01:04:15.359] that's too weird, right? And you all
[01:04:16.960] learned that at the ranch during the
[01:04:18.880] bass OSAP program. You know, there's
[01:04:21.520] people see flying saucers. They don't
[01:04:23.200] tell you they also saw a gargoyle
[01:04:24.960] jumping around on their shed. But you
[01:04:27.119] learned that you as you press it further
[01:04:30.799] witnesses things that are too strange,
[01:04:32.559] they'll leave it out.
[01:04:33.920] >> Yes.
[01:04:35.119] >> That's a very valuable lesson actually
[01:04:37.039] that we we found.
[01:04:38.079] >> Remember that wife or the
[01:04:39.609] [clears throat] BIA guy? What's he
[01:04:41.359] talking about?
[01:04:41.680] >> Share share with our audience.
[01:04:42.960] >> You know, he he was on the roof,
[01:04:46.079] >> jumped down on the ground,
[01:04:47.280] >> right?
[01:04:47.599] >> And then leaped like 50 60 ft over a a
[01:04:50.720] chain link fence. And she's out in the
[01:04:52.799] yard with her kid, her son.
[01:04:54.640] >> Yeah.
[01:04:55.039] >> You know, so she panicked
[01:04:57.359] >> and and
[01:04:58.079] >> and and [clears throat] this thing was
[01:05:00.480] um in broad daylight.
[01:05:01.839] >> Yeah. 10:00 in the morning
[01:05:03.200] >> who was giving up [clears throat] this
[01:05:05.200] horrendous odor. That's how she first
[01:05:07.760] noticed it. It was up on the but it was
[01:05:11.200] moving like a kangaroo on steroids. I
[01:05:14.559] mean it was taking these gigantic leaps
[01:05:16.960] that were not sort of linear then it
[01:05:19.680] disappeared into the treeine. But during
[01:05:22.559] that OSAP program, we developed a
[01:05:25.520] strategy where we would knock on
[01:05:27.440] people's doors, neighbors around uh
[01:05:30.400] Skinwalker Ranch, not actually on the
[01:05:33.039] ranch, and we would surprise them um and
[01:05:36.640] sort of ask them questions and then we
[01:05:39.440] would revisit uh later. But the first
[01:05:42.240] interviews were designed so that we
[01:05:45.039] would not they would not sort of call up
[01:05:47.760] their neighbors and sort of talk about
[01:05:49.839] what they were going to say. So we would
[01:05:51.520] surprise them. We would get the
[01:05:53.119] testimony um and then we would revisit
[01:05:56.079] it. So over time we talked to dozens of
[01:05:59.359] neighbors and sort of an uh we we a
[01:06:02.720] series of circles for up to about two
[01:06:05.680] miles around the ranch. And it was um
[01:06:09.039] astounding the number of um different
[01:06:12.880] testimonies we got regarding these
[01:06:15.680] creatures, different types of creatures.
[01:06:18.480] But the first one that you were talking
[01:06:20.160] about there was the sort of the genesis
[01:06:22.960] of that that project. We decided to see
[01:06:26.480] what else was out there given the fact
[01:06:28.960] that this was a very weird creature that
[01:06:32.000] was not conforming to anything that we
[01:06:33.920] had heard about. And so we we did take
[01:06:38.559] the testimony from so many people as
[01:06:41.920] relatively factual in terms of they were
[01:06:45.520] not um they were not confabulating
[01:06:48.640] because we they were surprised when we
[01:06:51.039] talked to them and they did not have
[01:06:53.359] time to talk to their neighbors um you
[01:06:56.160] know about what they should say or
[01:06:57.839] should not say. Well, and it's
[01:06:59.280] reinforced by so many dozens
[01:07:01.091] [clears throat] of stories from so many
[01:07:03.760] uh people from the sheriff's department
[01:07:06.400] and the BIA,
[01:07:07.839] >> right?
[01:07:08.240] >> So many that just this humongous amount.
[01:07:11.280] So then you get a story like that, we
[01:07:13.920] might share it among ourselves, but we
[01:07:15.760] don't share it with anybody else because
[01:07:16.960] nobody else is going to is going to
[01:07:18.480] believe it, right? So and that that
[01:07:20.799] applies to a lot of different
[01:07:22.160] demonstrations and things in in in real
[01:07:24.480] life, you know. Firstly,
[01:07:25.920] >> I have a question for you.
[01:07:28.319] that the
[01:07:32.640] when a pilot comes back telling a story
[01:07:36.000] of like happened with the Nimits, do
[01:07:38.640] they draw blood from that from him or
[01:07:41.599] her? Do they look at the factors in the
[01:07:44.319] blood? Do they that you know there are
[01:07:47.839] factors that will remember an experience
[01:07:52.160] >> for sure
[01:07:52.559] >> when our consciousness doesn't and you
[01:07:56.319] know Gary Nolan had sat me down and said
[01:08:00.720] there are things in our body that will
[01:08:02.880] remember everything since your childhood
[01:08:05.680] and it's it's written there. Is is that
[01:08:09.520] shouldn't that be a part of the practice
[01:08:12.000] in
[01:08:12.559] >> Well, I would have thought so. Um but um
[01:08:15.760] remember I know that the when the pilots
[01:08:18.640] were interviewed from the Nimmits um the
[01:08:21.120] tic tac incident. Um certainly there was
[01:08:25.440] a debriefing that was very sort of
[01:08:27.759] rudimentary
[01:08:29.279] um that happened once they got back on
[01:08:31.199] the actual uh ship. Uh but to my
[01:08:35.199] knowledge there was no blood drawn or
[01:08:37.520] anything like that. I think Dave Fraver
[01:08:39.520] would have would have uh volunteered
[01:08:41.440] that but uh to my knowledge there was no
[01:08:44.319] but I would totally agree with Dr. Nolan
[01:08:47.199] in terms of I mean the immune system is
[01:08:50.000] a is an information processing system
[01:08:53.279] and it is it just happens to be
[01:08:56.080] distributed. I mean the brain is another
[01:08:59.279] information processing system.
[01:09:01.040] >> Yeah. Remember the points of light in in
[01:09:04.000] Kit's work and and Gary's work in the in
[01:09:06.560] the brain from CT scans.
[01:09:08.080] >> Exactly.
[01:09:08.640] >> Yeah. So they they're absent in a normal
[01:09:11.040] uh without any events having occurred,
[01:09:13.279] but after the events occurred, then you
[01:09:15.359] get sometimes significant amounts of of
[01:09:18.319] points of light and it differentiates
[01:09:20.480] between the s the severess of the
[01:09:23.520] exposure of the of the contact of the
[01:09:26.239] event and maybe more than one event
[01:09:28.880] would manifest more points of light.
[01:09:30.880] Yeah.
[01:09:31.199] >> So those are measurable.
[01:09:32.880] >> Exactly. And and so the body is a
[01:09:35.120] readout system that should be
[01:09:36.983] [clears throat] tapped, but to my
[01:09:38.480] knowledge, it is not being tapped. Apart
[01:09:41.040] from I mean Gary Nolan and and Kit Green
[01:09:43.679] were sort of way out on the edge in
[01:09:46.319] terms of being innovative. But the
[01:09:48.799] standard operating procedure after a
[01:09:51.120] fighter pilot encounters a UFO is not to
[01:09:54.239] draw a blood sample. to my knowledge.
[01:09:57.679] >> You look back at the ranch and it seems
[01:10:00.080] to be sort of a microcosm of all the
[01:10:02.800] things that you've studied over the
[01:10:04.480] decades. I It's all there. uh you know,
[01:10:07.199] UFOs of every size and shape, the
[01:10:09.440] sombrero shaped ones that fly right into
[01:10:11.520] the mesa, uh the stealth fighters with
[01:10:14.400] Christmas lights, uh flying saucers,
[01:10:17.600] orbs, uh the blue orbs, the white ones,
[01:10:20.880] the red ones, the it and then the
[01:10:23.520] creatures that animals that don't exist
[01:10:26.000] or exist only in mythology. um crypto
[01:10:29.120] creatures, crop circles, ice circles, uh
[01:10:32.880] physical things that happen and phys
[01:10:34.623] [clears throat] and non-physical things
[01:10:35.920] that happen, voices out of the sky. It's
[01:10:37.600] got it all. It seems like looking back
[01:10:40.640] at it now, it's as if it was a learning
[01:10:44.080] curve. You know, that ranch, that
[01:10:45.600] property, for whatever reason, is very
[01:10:47.040] special. All of it concentrated in the
[01:10:48.800] same place. And if any, if I take away
[01:10:51.199] any lesson, it's is telling us all of
[01:10:54.000] this is connected somehow, and it's up
[01:10:55.920] to you to figure it out. I Where where
[01:10:58.159] are you on that looking back at the
[01:10:59.520] ranch now?
[01:11:00.320] >> Well, um I
[01:11:04.239] had the um Dr. Salisbury who is a was a
[01:11:10.239] professor of biology at two different
[01:11:12.800] universities in Utah had done a study of
[01:11:17.920] uh UFO experiences in the northern half
[01:11:21.679] of Utah um
[01:11:25.120] years before in
[01:11:26.719] >> 400 cases
[01:11:27.679] >> in the 80s and he wanted to redo it and
[01:11:32.080] go back to the same families and uh and
[01:11:35.760] and see if they had had other
[01:11:38.159] experiences or if they could explain
[01:11:41.679] what they had told him before because
[01:11:44.560] after a time you you discover that you
[01:11:48.159] somebody was doing some experiment and
[01:11:50.640] you hear about that and that explains
[01:11:52.800] what you thought you saw. So he invited
[01:11:56.320] me to come with him. So we went all over
[01:11:59.679] the northern half of of Utah, you know,
[01:12:02.800] up to the mountains on at at the north,
[01:12:06.320] you know, frontier of Utah that are the
[01:12:09.199] only chain of mountains that goes east
[01:12:11.840] west in North America. Very interesting
[01:12:15.360] places with lots of sightings there. And
[01:12:18.719] everywhere we went, there were things
[01:12:21.840] that were very similar to what goes on
[01:12:23.760] on the ranch. So the the the ranch and
[01:12:27.760] as you know I've gone to the ranch with
[01:12:30.800] with you thanks to you and I've gone
[01:12:33.840] there two times after that. Uh so a
[01:12:38.320] total of only four you know four four
[01:12:42.080] times there but um
[01:12:46.000] you know I've heard and I followed the
[01:12:48.560] the research and I you know we saw those
[01:12:53.360] corpses we saw all of those traces and
[01:12:55.840] so on. Um but that happens
[01:13:00.080] all over Utah including things going
[01:13:03.040] into a mountain, things going and um
[01:13:07.280] Professor Salisbury was was well known
[01:13:10.320] there and he was part of you know both
[01:13:13.600] the academic community and the Mormon
[01:13:15.840] community. He was a Mormon bishop
[01:13:19.360] and he had long experience with with the
[01:13:22.880] state and with what with what people had
[01:13:26.480] seen. Uh those creatures were we
[01:13:30.640] interviewed people who had recently seen
[01:13:34.640] those creatures in front of their car.
[01:13:37.520] Okay. We interviewed them in their
[01:13:39.760] house. Okay. Uh they were there but and
[01:13:43.360] the the creature wanted to be seen. It
[01:13:46.080] was on the road right in front with with
[01:13:50.239] the eyes glowing red. Now Dr. Sisbury
[01:13:55.840] explained to me that don't get excited
[01:13:58.239] about that because the pigmentation in
[01:14:00.400] the eye you know under certain
[01:14:02.800] conditions like the headlights of a car
[01:14:05.040] will turn red. So the fact that the eyes
[01:14:08.239] were not red. Okay. So I was sort of
[01:14:11.120] disappointed with that because it's a
[01:14:13.040] good you know it's a good part of the
[01:14:14.960] story but you know uh a scientist will
[01:14:19.120] bring it back to reality.
[01:14:22.159] But those those creatures were real you
[01:14:26.320] know they were there is one place where
[01:14:29.199] we went a little town north of
[01:14:33.040] Roosevelt.
[01:14:35.040] I I know that place pretty well by now.
[01:14:38.000] Uh the uh I know you have to eat at the
[01:14:41.920] Denny's, you know, if you want a good
[01:14:44.239] meal,
[01:14:45.199] >> but
[01:14:46.800] they uh so I I know my way around thanks
[01:14:49.840] to you and thanks to him. Um you know,
[01:14:54.400] they saw a creature walking down the
[01:14:57.440] main street. You know, it's a small it's
[01:15:00.400] a one street town. Uh and they they
[01:15:03.920] called the police. Uh the you know the
[01:15:08.239] patrol car came in. They saw the
[01:15:11.760] creature.
[01:15:13.600] The creature started running. Could run
[01:15:16.560] 50 miles an hour. Uh so they followed.
[01:15:20.640] They didn't want to try to stop it or
[01:15:23.120] shoot it or whatever. So they just, you
[01:15:26.719] know, drove along
[01:15:29.040] and then they got into an Indian Indian
[01:15:33.360] land. So they called the Indian police.
[01:15:35.840] The Indian police sent another patrol
[01:15:37.840] car behind the the first state car. And
[01:15:42.480] they got on the uh on the radio. He
[01:15:45.199] said, "Do you do you see it?" And the
[01:15:48.080] the Indian policeman said, "Yes, I see
[01:15:50.960] it. I'm going home." [laughter] didn't
[01:15:53.679] want to have anything to do with it
[01:15:55.679] because he had a lifetime of traditions
[01:15:59.760] from his parents and his community about
[01:16:02.880] what those things were.
[01:16:05.199] >> So he interpreted it with a completely
[01:16:07.679] different set of filters than we do. We
[01:16:12.960] think ET but there is no flying saucer.
[01:16:16.880] There is nothing that you can take to
[01:16:19.920] the lab in terms of physics. It's it's
[01:16:22.719] for you, you know. It's all yours.
[01:16:26.363] [laughter]
[01:16:27.600] >> So, what is the intelligence behind it
[01:16:30.159] saying to us then when you concentrate
[01:16:32.159] all this seemingly unrelated weird stuff
[01:16:34.719] together? Somebody sees a UFO and then
[01:16:37.520] they see some creature. It doesn't exist
[01:16:39.120] and then there's a poltergeist or
[01:16:40.640] something in their house and moving
[01:16:41.920] around their dishes and then there's a a
[01:16:44.080] spectre at the bottom of their bed in
[01:16:45.520] the middle of the night. What what's
[01:16:47.040] what's it trying to tell us?
[01:16:48.239] >> I think it's a combination. And I
[01:16:49.943] [clears throat] think it's a it's a
[01:16:50.800] conditioning process going back eons of
[01:16:54.320] time and and accelerating especially in
[01:16:57.360] modern times. It's a conditioning
[01:16:58.960] process and it's it's uh it's a creating
[01:17:02.719] more of a an awareness through
[01:17:04.880] interaction of even gaming,
[01:17:06.960] demonstrations, all those kinds of
[01:17:08.880] things and trying to elevate a
[01:17:12.400] collective consciousness of a of a
[01:17:15.280] species, intelligent species, so that
[01:17:19.199] they're [clears throat] much more aware
[01:17:20.880] than just the environment around
[01:17:22.480] themselves. That there's a lot more
[01:17:24.800] going on than you imagine. So start
[01:17:28.000] getting interested in it and start
[01:17:30.480] seeking it and and and we're not going
[01:17:33.040] to stop until we can see that you really
[01:17:36.400] understand what's going on and maybe
[01:17:37.920] then communications can start to happen.
[01:17:40.560] So that's what we're looking at is how
[01:17:43.760] can we're interested in in communication
[01:17:46.800] and and how can you uh implement that
[01:17:49.840] because the time might be at this point
[01:17:52.960] uh sufficient to to engage on that not
[01:17:56.480] just disclosure or confirmation but to
[01:17:59.360] actually engage in in communication.
[01:18:02.560] Jock, you recently said something to
[01:18:04.480] that effect on stage at a at a public
[01:18:06.719] event where you said that there are
[01:18:08.159] experiments uh in communication underway
[01:18:10.640] in labs in an unclassified setting. Can
[01:18:13.199] you elaborate on that at all? And and
[01:18:15.199] have they have they worked?
[01:18:17.679] >> Well, I mentioned um I I I mentioned
[01:18:21.600] that in in in the book. I I don't think
[01:18:26.000] I I should go beyond what's in the book
[01:18:29.679] because the the the people involved have
[01:18:32.960] a project to disclose and to to publish
[01:18:37.040] what they know. I've seen what they
[01:18:39.520] have. You know, it's much more detailed
[01:18:42.560] about the the the interaction that they
[01:18:45.360] they were able to achieve. and and the
[01:18:48.560] the the man I spoke to that I called
[01:18:51.600] Gilbert uh was [clears throat] in the
[01:18:54.719] presence of that entity in a very
[01:18:57.440] structured laboratory style environment.
[01:19:02.800] um he was brought in because he had
[01:19:05.679] certain psychic abilities himself that
[01:19:09.679] they wanted to to add as a layer to the
[01:19:13.440] communication because they had trouble
[01:19:15.840] with the communication. Now I wasn't
[01:19:18.400] there. I cannot vouch for that, you
[01:19:21.360] know. I cannot, you know, stand before
[01:19:25.040] Congress or in a skiff, you know, and
[01:19:28.560] and talk about that because that's not
[01:19:30.800] my information. But, uh, I I thought
[01:19:34.560] that was relevant, you know, to to the
[01:19:37.280] whole discussion.
[01:19:38.880] >> And Colum, you're uh, of course, you're
[01:19:40.960] you're, uh, key personnel in the Bix,
[01:19:43.920] the Bigalow Institute for Consciousness
[01:19:45.520] Studies. You guys are looking at
[01:19:46.719] consciousness, not only survival after
[01:19:48.560] physical death, but you know, near-death
[01:19:50.480] experiences, reincarnation cases,
[01:19:53.520] mediums.
[01:19:55.280] The the trick, I guess, as Robert has
[01:19:57.199] has shared with me before, is you don't
[01:19:58.719] know who you're communicating with. Uh,
[01:20:00.800] an entity, something dead, something
[01:20:02.800] good, something bad. You really don't
[01:20:04.640] know. Same as at the ranch, right? view.
[01:20:07.120] >> Well, the ranch is a very special case
[01:20:10.320] um of um the the levels of communication
[01:20:15.120] that we had at at the ranch. Uh we were
[01:20:19.600] it was so ambiguous that we were uh not
[01:20:24.000] able to distinguish
[01:20:26.080] uh between the so-called non-human
[01:20:28.320] entities versus
[01:20:30.880] um what people usually label as
[01:20:33.040] discarnate humans. So, um there are long
[01:20:37.120] traditions, you know, up there in in
[01:20:39.840] Utah where um there's uh both
[01:20:45.679] both sets of beliefs with the Native
[01:20:47.600] Americans as well as the Mormon uh the
[01:20:50.560] Mormon religious beliefs that are all
[01:20:53.199] intertwined around that that ranch. And
[01:20:56.880] um we had so many different experiences
[01:21:00.880] um that would be labeled as poltergeist
[01:21:03.679] activity. So is poltergeist activity
[01:21:06.560] actually connected in some way with uh
[01:21:10.239] with UFOs? Um we've certainly seen a lot
[01:21:14.080] of evidence during the OSAP program that
[01:21:16.239] sometimes um UFO activity might trigger
[01:21:20.480] some poltergeist activity. Uh we in fact
[01:21:23.679] we had uh occasions of people from
[01:21:27.011] [snorts] the Defense Intelligence Agency
[01:21:29.040] visiting Skinwalker Ranch and then
[01:21:32.080] bringing something home with them and
[01:21:34.800] that something manifested in their homes
[01:21:37.280] as poltergeist [clears throat] activity.
[01:21:39.280] So, uh, we do know that the the ranch,
[01:21:42.719] uh, had the classic devices, machines
[01:21:46.560] flying around, UFOs flying around, nuts
[01:21:49.360] and bolts, but at the same time, you had
[01:21:52.480] discarnate voices um, right co
[01:21:55.520] collocicalized with um, silver silver
[01:21:59.199] discs, you had um, policy activity,
[01:22:02.381] [clears throat]
[01:22:02.960] you had hauntings, you had, you know,
[01:22:05.920] cattle mutilations, you had had um
[01:22:08.960] trickster like activity going on. So it
[01:22:12.000] was all collocicalized with um silver
[01:22:16.000] discs. So do you separate those two into
[01:22:19.440] into multiple different phenomena or are
[01:22:22.320] they part of the same phenomenon that is
[01:22:25.920] manifesting in different ways at
[01:22:27.920] different times? Um and that's the big
[01:22:30.719] question. Is there a scientific way of
[01:22:33.920] parsing out um you know what is
[01:22:38.239] non-human intelligence versus what is
[01:22:40.639] discarnate humans and to my knowledge um
[01:22:44.560] I don't know of an experiment that would
[01:22:46.560] actually definitively tell you that
[01:22:48.480] >> the demonstrations give [clears throat]
[01:22:50.239] you the hints when the messages sent we
[01:22:53.679] are watching you that's not
[01:22:55.760] characteristic of the spirit world
[01:22:58.159] particularly that kind of thing like a
[01:23:00.400] poltergeist event would be. But so so
[01:23:03.920] there's there are clues. A cattle
[01:23:05.679] mutilation would [clears throat] not be
[01:23:07.280] typical of a spirit world event. You
[01:23:10.239] know, a crop circle, those kinds of
[01:23:11.920] things. So there's there's they're more
[01:23:14.800] dramatic.
[01:23:16.880] Trying to differentiate is important
[01:23:18.800] for, you know, OAP. One of the reasons
[01:23:21.360] supposedly it was killed that Latsky and
[01:23:23.840] you and I wrote about is the uh
[01:23:26.480] religious fundamentalists in key
[01:23:28.080] positions at the Pentagon thought it was
[01:23:29.760] Satan, satanic, demonic. You hear the
[01:23:32.560] vice president of the United States said
[01:23:34.159] he thinks UFOs are are demons. [snorts]
[01:23:36.400] Um what do you say to the to that
[01:23:39.520] concern? I guess do we don't really know
[01:23:41.600] for sure. I wouldn't think demons need
[01:23:43.679] to fly around in saucers, but um they're
[01:23:46.480] they're tricksters. There's a there's a
[01:23:48.560] a paper in the Journal of Scientific
[01:23:50.480] Exploration that talks about trickster
[01:23:52.639] like experiences and it gets into a
[01:23:54.400] little bit of hitchhiker stuff. So, why
[01:23:56.159] don't you tackle that one?
[01:23:57.760] >> You know, as I said before, I'm I'm here
[01:24:01.120] as as an information scientist, not not
[01:24:04.800] as a programmer or a computer guy. Um,
[01:24:09.040] we use computers for information, but
[01:24:12.000] information is much bigger than just
[01:24:14.960] what's in a computer.
[01:24:17.199] uh there is a law in
[01:24:19.760] basic physics that says information and
[01:24:22.880] energy are the same thing. There is an
[01:24:25.760] equivalence equation between the
[01:24:29.360] quantity of information and the quantity
[01:24:31.360] of energy that goes back to the 30s
[01:24:34.480] 1930s you know days of Einstein and all
[01:24:37.920] those people Carl Jung was very
[01:24:40.560] interested in this and uh now uh you can
[01:24:45.840] look at all of these things that we talk
[01:24:48.719] about you know in terms of the physics
[01:24:51.520] you can flip them to the field of
[01:24:55.040] information what is the structure of and
[01:24:58.080] that's that's what I bring into the
[01:25:00.239] picture you know I I cannot do what K
[01:25:03.040] does I I certainly cannot cannot do what
[01:25:06.320] the physicists are doing uh but uh I can
[01:25:10.880] look at the information because you know
[01:25:13.360] the data warehouse that you know I
[01:25:16.719] designed for you uh you know started
[01:25:20.239] with 10 or 12 different databases
[01:25:23.440] because you cannot put everything. You
[01:25:25.520] cannot put the pilot sightings in the
[01:25:28.159] same database as you could you you put
[01:25:31.280] the farmers information or the navy
[01:25:34.239] information because the conditions are
[01:25:36.719] different. But there at the level of the
[01:25:40.400] information content you can you can have
[01:25:43.840] an overall structure for all of that.
[01:25:46.880] And that's what you know we were going
[01:25:49.760] to do until the program was was
[01:25:52.960] interrupted.
[01:25:54.480] Uh so
[01:25:56.560] wherever it is now it's essentially
[01:26:00.159] what you know the programmers call a
[01:26:03.679] bucket of bits. Okay. It's a bucket of
[01:26:06.719] bits
[01:26:08.480] randomly, you know, moving around with
[01:26:13.520] we we know for sure that 90% of it is
[01:26:17.520] not relevant to the problem. So if you
[01:26:20.480] put you can put AI on top of it, but the
[01:26:22.719] AI will conclude that you're crazy. It
[01:26:27.360] it will not look at it. It will refuse
[01:26:29.280] to look at it and say go back to where
[01:26:33.040] wherever this came from. reinvestigate
[01:26:36.159] the thing and give us the 10 the 10%
[01:26:39.360] that matters. The rest of it was
[01:26:41.840] balloons. We've shot we we've sent
[01:26:45.120] aircraft to shoot down balloons and we
[01:26:48.000] couldn't find the balloons. Okay. I
[01:26:49.760] mean, you know, and and now, you know,
[01:26:53.440] we're doing some similar things that
[01:26:55.920] that data warehouse went somewhere, but
[01:27:00.400] the phases, the two phases of refinement
[01:27:04.639] where we were going to get to to the
[01:27:07.760] actual thing was never done. Okay? It
[01:27:11.040] was interrupted. So um if you look at
[01:27:16.320] the information structure you discover
[01:27:19.520] all kinds of other things. Uh for
[01:27:22.880] example you know basically about the
[01:27:26.320] beings themselves. You know what kind of
[01:27:29.679] extraterrestrial
[01:27:31.679] looks like, you know, a 10-year-old kid
[01:27:34.960] that breathes air normally, has two eyes
[01:27:38.239] where you can read the emotions in their
[01:27:41.040] eyes or on their faces and and walks
[01:27:44.000] normally in our gravity, which is very
[01:27:47.199] special, you know. I mean in in physics,
[01:27:50.960] you know, I I I always kid with my
[01:27:54.239] physics
[01:27:56.320] friends, you know, I say you only have,
[01:28:00.400] you know, you only have one piece of
[01:28:02.639] data, you know, G equal one. That's all
[01:28:05.679] you know in biology. You know, biology
[01:28:08.480] at G equal one. If I give you G equ=
[01:28:12.320] 12th or G equ= 110th you know as as we
[01:28:16.000] know from the moon you know I mean
[01:28:18.800] you've looked at design for the moon you
[01:28:20.880] have to take into account that you know
[01:28:23.679] a kilogram is not a kilogram
[01:28:26.800] something else you go to Mars it's a
[01:28:29.280] different kilogram so uh people don't
[01:28:34.480] think about that and those creatures to
[01:28:37.920] me uh could be derived with you know
[01:28:43.440] again I defer to to you and Dr. Nolan
[01:28:47.199] and so on but they could be derived from
[01:28:49.840] us from human beings
[01:28:52.880] uh in in some different environment or
[01:28:56.239] some different manipulation of the
[01:28:58.320] genome. Um that's not what you know who
[01:29:04.719] drives UFOs. Okay. the the the the
[01:29:08.800] flying saucers are conceived by I think
[01:29:12.800] by a different kind of entity with a
[01:29:16.080] different kind of bi of biology. That's
[01:29:19.440] what we're trying to to get to, you
[01:29:22.239] know, with the psychic aspects and with
[01:29:25.199] the communication aspects and with the
[01:29:27.760] information aspects because we share
[01:29:30.880] information.
[01:29:32.880] We don't share culture.
[01:29:35.280] we we share information.
[01:29:38.880] So the concept of energy is of course we
[01:29:42.960] need to measure that and you know I've
[01:29:45.280] had those arguments with Eric Eric Davis
[01:29:48.239] you know uh and uh he says well it's the
[01:29:52.239] same thing that I'm doing. It's not the
[01:29:54.639] same thing he's doing. So we've had
[01:29:56.880] those arguments a long time. Information
[01:29:59.360] is a different type of entity. So if we
[01:30:04.080] talk about the devil,
[01:30:06.239] you know, I mean, you can we can uh
[01:30:11.440] attach to it anything that our culture
[01:30:14.480] wants to attach to it. As you know, in
[01:30:16.960] some c cultures that the devil is is a
[01:30:20.400] good entity. In others, it's a negative
[01:30:22.960] entity. You know, I grew up in the
[01:30:25.280] Catholic, you know, in a Catholic
[01:30:27.840] environment where the less you talk
[01:30:30.560] about the devil, the better, you know,
[01:30:32.719] because when you talk about it, you
[01:30:35.760] invoke it and it's going to manifest in
[01:30:39.600] ways that you're not going to be capable
[01:30:41.760] of recognizing.
[01:30:44.480] >> So, so George has mentioned a couple of
[01:30:46.880] times now your theory on the control
[01:30:50.880] system.
[01:30:51.600] >> Yes.
[01:30:52.080] >> Control system hypothesis. I think it
[01:30:54.000] might be useful for the listeners of
[01:30:56.480] your podcast maybe to if you uh
[01:31:00.639] explained briefly what the control
[01:31:03.199] system hypothesis is.
[01:31:06.159] >> Well, I don't mean um a control system
[01:31:10.880] the way you know in phys we have it in
[01:31:13.920] everyday physics. I mean that
[01:31:17.920] a state of an environment that controls
[01:31:22.080] a certain level of something level of
[01:31:25.360] information or level of behavior you
[01:31:29.280] know or it promotes a particular type of
[01:31:31.840] behavior by the way it is in in this
[01:31:35.679] room we're not aware of you know it's a
[01:31:38.239] pleasant temperature I just came from
[01:31:40.800] the airport it's 117°
[01:31:44.159] outside, you know, in Las Vegas today on
[01:31:47.360] the street. Okay.
[01:31:48.639] >> Right.
[01:31:49.120] >> We don't know that. We don't know that
[01:31:50.960] because
[01:31:51.600] >> big deal.
[01:31:52.080] >> There's a machine. There's a machine
[01:31:54.480] somewhere
[01:31:56.320] somewhere behind these walls that blows
[01:32:00.239] cold air in here and it it it controls
[01:32:04.080] it. Okay. So um is the phenomenon
[01:32:08.263] [clears throat]
[01:32:08.880] itself something that has the effect of
[01:32:13.760] balancing our culture in certain ways.
[01:32:18.000] So I I had those discussions you know
[01:32:21.199] it's not my idea idea came from Jacqu
[01:32:24.639] Berier in France and other people that
[01:32:27.760] I've talked to that you know I I go to
[01:32:32.000] the people who know more than I do.
[01:32:34.239] That's that's what you do when you're
[01:32:36.880] running a venture capital fund. You
[01:32:39.679] always there are always people who know
[01:32:41.760] more than you do. For one thing, the
[01:32:44.159] people who invented the device that they
[01:32:47.199] are looking for money for. So I I need
[01:32:50.159] to learn, you know, what's what does
[01:32:52.480] that device do? So I I went to these
[01:32:55.679] people. Jack Beer told me that he had
[01:32:58.880] been
[01:33:00.560] he was a French spy in World War II. He
[01:33:03.360] was one of the early scientific spies.
[01:33:06.800] They were looking for, you know, the
[01:33:09.760] components for radioactivity and
[01:33:12.480] everything else. Heavy water, you know,
[01:33:15.280] was a big thing in World War II. It was
[01:33:18.480] a big German secret. And uh the the
[01:33:23.679] French and the Americans and the British
[01:33:25.760] wanted to know. He was part of a team
[01:33:28.880] that went after that. And he was
[01:33:31.920] captured. he was tortured. He said the
[01:33:35.679] the the camps where I was taken were a
[01:33:40.080] control system. You couldn't get out.
[01:33:43.600] And that was the point and uh and you'd
[01:33:46.800] be tortured day after day and you
[01:33:49.040] couldn't get out.
[01:33:51.120] But they were something else also. They
[01:33:54.719] were not we think of them as a closed
[01:33:56.719] system. said there is another type of
[01:33:59.280] control system that's open. A university
[01:34:02.480] is a control system. You have to take
[01:34:05.199] the tests and you have to pass the test
[01:34:07.760] to go on to the next level. But
[01:34:10.880] eventually you can go out you can leave
[01:34:14.159] whenever you want or you can you can
[01:34:16.560] leave with a degree that enables you to
[01:34:19.360] do certain things. So it's both a a
[01:34:22.639] closed system and an open system. He
[01:34:25.280] said the concentration camp I was in was
[01:34:28.480] closed to me but it was open. One time
[01:34:31.920] we saw all the the firemen from Munich
[01:34:36.400] were in turn were caught by the Gestapo
[01:34:40.719] and they were brought to the camp and
[01:34:43.760] they were treated like us, you know, for
[01:34:47.280] for three weeks and then they were
[01:34:50.320] released and then they were no longer on
[01:34:52.239] strike.
[01:34:54.239] they had decided to go on strike in
[01:34:56.880] Munich.
[01:34:58.480] So the Gestapo arrested them and brought
[01:35:01.360] them to to Verval
[01:35:05.199] and uh after that they had learned
[01:35:08.400] something about where they were but it
[01:35:12.239] was open to them. It wasn't open to him.
[01:35:15.840] So he said you have to ask the question.
[01:35:19.280] It's not enough for you to say it's a
[01:35:21.760] control system because I can find some
[01:35:24.719] invariance. You know, we look for
[01:35:27.040] invariance in astronomy just like you
[01:35:29.600] look for invariance in in biology in the
[01:35:32.560] body. What is it that remains stable
[01:35:35.840] when you know the brain does one thing
[01:35:38.080] and other organs do something else? What
[01:35:40.639] is it that controls the whole thing?
[01:35:43.199] What does her heart do? You know, how
[01:35:45.520] does it adapt to this? what what are the
[01:35:48.719] reference levels for the heart you know
[01:35:51.840] through a crisis or for something like
[01:35:53.760] this. So you know you you have to go
[01:35:56.960] into that with this phenomenon. What
[01:35:59.760] does it really control? Now you know
[01:36:03.280] we're going to be with some of our
[01:36:09.600] contemporaries are going to have the
[01:36:11.520] clearances to have access to tissue from
[01:36:15.120] those bodies and there how do we know
[01:36:18.000] that this wasn't planted to teach us
[01:36:21.040] something? just to teach us a lesson.
[01:36:23.360] You know, one one discussion I've had
[01:36:25.360] with my colleagues in France is you know
[01:36:28.880] these things come from somewhere else,
[01:36:30.880] some other universe or somewhere else in
[01:36:33.440] our universe. They obviously can go
[01:36:35.760] faster than light uh or they wouldn't be
[01:36:38.800] here. Uh what kind of device like that
[01:36:42.000] is going to crash in some you know in
[01:36:45.040] somebody's field? You know that doesn't
[01:36:47.440] make any sense.
[01:36:48.080] >> So what percentage
[01:36:48.960] >> if they crash they want to crash? What
[01:36:50.800] percentage of crashes do you think are
[01:36:53.280] deliberate?
[01:36:55.440] >> Um,
[01:36:56.239] >> or gifts like
[01:36:58.480] >> Yeah, but deliberate gifts, you know,
[01:37:00.320] just they weren't
[01:37:02.800] >> This is something that was designed to
[01:37:04.639] crash.
[01:37:06.400] >> What percentage of all of the of all of
[01:37:08.719] the recovered hardware in worldwide do
[01:37:12.000] you think was intentional?
[01:37:14.719] Well, most of the UFOs we track
[01:37:19.600] uh don't crash,
[01:37:21.600] >> right?
[01:37:22.000] >> You know, uh so
[01:37:25.840] why would some something just crash and
[01:37:30.080] it it flew out of the Trinity site?
[01:37:33.600] Nobody saw it fly out. It hit that tower
[01:37:38.400] and then it crashes in this guy's field,
[01:37:42.239] you know. Do you think it's 100%.
[01:37:45.280] >> It says, [clears throat]
[01:37:46.880] "Look at this." You know, it's like the
[01:37:49.199] experiments we do with mice, you know,
[01:37:52.000] look at this or the experiments we do
[01:37:53.840] with or we try to do with dolphins, you
[01:37:57.199] know.
[01:37:57.679] >> So, what we're talking about potentially
[01:37:59.280] is is is it possible that 100%
[01:38:04.000] of the crashes, including Roswell, were
[01:38:07.040] intentional.
[01:38:09.600] So they were planned as crashes to look
[01:38:12.560] like crashes uh so that we would pick it
[01:38:14.880] up and study it and learn.
[01:38:16.159] >> That's huge as as far as being evidence
[01:38:19.360] that [clears throat] this has been a
[01:38:20.480] process an intentional process of of
[01:38:24.159] assisting disclosure over a period of
[01:38:26.800] eons long time
[01:38:28.159] >> or part of the control system meaning
[01:38:30.080] that we we learn and advance as a
[01:38:32.159] species learn [clears throat] something.
[01:38:33.679] Um, kind of like the the messages that
[01:38:36.719] column you had mentioned about
[01:38:37.760] abductions. We don't hear about them
[01:38:39.119] anymore. I'm I'm sure they probably
[01:38:40.719] happen. They're just not reported. Like
[01:38:42.960] crop circles. Crop circles are still
[01:38:45.119] happening. I I I get different feeds. We
[01:38:48.000] just don't see them reported in
[01:38:50.000] mainstream media because they've
[01:38:51.440] supposedly been debunked. uh and
[01:38:54.960] >> and nobody has to agree with me and and
[01:38:59.520] the people who showed me but um I think
[01:39:04.239] crop circles is is a military experiment
[01:39:07.119] we've been doing that the British have
[01:39:09.199] been doing. I'm told that it's a joint
[01:39:11.920] experiment with the French to design a
[01:39:15.280] particular type of a particular class of
[01:39:18.719] weapons that we haven't engaged yet
[01:39:22.080] anywhere.
[01:39:22.719] >> That's a pretty big story by itself.
[01:39:24.719] Even if it's not Yeah. But I've seen
[01:39:27.600] this four times. I've published it four
[01:39:30.400] times. That's on the web in in different
[01:39:34.239] ways and nobody looks at it.
[01:39:38.400] we wear, you know, blinders. Uh I know
[01:39:42.719] I'm wearing blinders. There are some
[01:39:45.360] things I I should go read and I I
[01:39:49.440] somehow I haven't read them, you know,
[01:39:51.840] that may show me that I'm you know the
[01:39:55.199] nits. We know about the limits because
[01:39:58.560] we read the New York Times.
[01:40:01.760] The Navy got a memo from Rathon
[01:40:06.639] and
[01:40:09.280] it's not classified. I' I've seen the
[01:40:11.360] memo. Uh it's very interesting four or
[01:40:15.199] five page memo very well written very
[01:40:18.960] written in a very respectful way
[01:40:22.400] um to the Navy.
[01:40:25.520] says, "You know, all those pictures in
[01:40:27.119] the New York Times, number one, they are
[01:40:29.520] not pictures.
[01:40:31.440] They are infrared readouts from a device
[01:40:35.600] that you contracted with us to build and
[01:40:39.679] you paid us to build it to your
[01:40:42.159] specifications. You, the US Navy,
[01:40:46.239] uh, it's not a camera. It's a you know
[01:40:49.840] it's a it's a long it's a big device and
[01:40:52.960] you you bolt it under the wing of an
[01:40:55.440] aircraft.
[01:40:57.040] The aircraft that you quote as having
[01:41:00.400] gotten that picture didn't have one of
[01:41:03.360] our cameras. That that picture was that
[01:41:08.800] digital image
[01:41:10.960] in the infrared
[01:41:13.360] was acquired by another aircraft.
[01:41:16.800] And you haven't interviewed the pilot of
[01:41:19.760] that other aircraft. You know who that
[01:41:22.000] was?
[01:41:23.520] He worked for you for a while. He he was
[01:41:26.880] in the other F-18,
[01:41:28.880] >> right?
[01:41:30.480] >> Um he he had one of those cameras, not
[01:41:33.920] the one that took that picture, but he
[01:41:35.920] he had another camera that was
[01:41:37.840] instrumental in the whole thing. It was
[01:41:40.159] in the air.
[01:41:42.400] um the people on TV and the people
[01:41:44.800] testifying about the photograph in
[01:41:48.000] quotes
[01:41:49.520] uh didn't have that camera but that's
[01:41:51.920] okay because they are part of the same
[01:41:54.320] wing and they were all in the air
[01:41:55.920] together and yes I mean that image is
[01:41:59.679] relevant
[01:42:01.520] so the memo goes on saying the the specs
[01:42:04.880] that you gave us at Rathon Corporation
[01:42:08.639] were to acquire information about the
[01:42:11.840] temperature of an exhaust of an enemy
[01:42:13.840] aircraft of a potential enemy aircraft.
[01:42:17.520] So you get behind a guy and you acquire
[01:42:20.880] this image and this image is on your
[01:42:24.400] screen and it will tell you the
[01:42:26.960] temperature and the configuration of a
[01:42:29.679] heat source.
[01:42:31.679] It's not a picture of a of a craft. It's
[01:42:34.480] a heat source that happens to be sort of
[01:42:37.520] an overweight thing. Okay? and you want
[01:42:39.840] to know if there is two or three and the
[01:42:42.320] temperature that will tell you if it's,
[01:42:45.440] you know, United Airlines or if it's a
[01:42:48.000] me. If it's United Airlines, you, you
[01:42:51.600] know, you go to the salute the pilot and
[01:42:55.520] tell him where to land because he's lost
[01:42:57.679] his transmission and didn't respond to
[01:43:00.159] your messages. Uh, if it's a MIG,
[01:43:04.880] maybe you do the same thing. You take
[01:43:07.520] the guy to come down. I understand that
[01:43:10.400] happens often in Alaska. Come down. You
[01:43:13.119] give him a cup of coffee and you show
[01:43:15.280] him the way back home. Okay. And you
[01:43:18.239] accompany him back home, you know, part
[01:43:21.199] of the way. And I I'm told that happens
[01:43:24.239] often. Well, it's done with that device.
[01:43:26.880] It it will help you identify, you know,
[01:43:30.800] friend or foe.
[01:43:33.119] Now the memo says if you want us to
[01:43:36.159] design a sort of camera to acquire
[01:43:39.760] information about UFOs, you tell us what
[01:43:43.119] UFOs are and what kind of energy they
[01:43:46.480] have and we will glad to, you know,
[01:43:49.360] enter into a contract relationship with
[01:43:52.159] the US Navy.
[01:43:54.639] So, it's a very respectful,
[01:43:57.360] you know, it's not they don't make fun
[01:44:00.000] of the Navy or the New York Times. It's
[01:44:03.280] a very respectful memo, but it tells you
[01:44:06.320] like it is. It's not a photograph and it
[01:44:09.840] doesn't show a UFO.
[01:44:12.480] Now, we think it's a UFO for other
[01:44:15.600] reasons,
[01:44:17.600] but we had other information. We had the
[01:44:20.400] visual from the pilots which is
[01:44:22.639] extraordinary because they've been
[01:44:24.719] trained in combat and in other places.
[01:44:28.080] This is something we respect. This is
[01:44:30.880] something that's maybe more meaningful
[01:44:33.679] than the image. Now the image
[01:44:37.600] comforts, you know, brings comfort to
[01:44:40.400] the fact that there was an event, there
[01:44:43.199] was a physical event of some sort. But
[01:44:45.760] that's about all we can say for
[01:44:47.760] >> that case is the first case that was
[01:44:49.920] investigated by Bass, right?
[01:44:51.840] >> Yeah. The very first case
[01:44:53.199] >> I mean that was when it was completely
[01:44:55.600] secret. Uh we investigated back in 2009
[01:44:59.360] and the event happened in 2004
[01:45:02.400] and it just happened that our pro
[01:45:04.719] project one of our project managers was
[01:45:07.440] one of the F-18 pilots that was involved
[01:45:09.679] in
[01:45:10.000] >> he started work for us in '08, didn't
[01:45:11.679] he?
[01:45:12.239] >> Yeah, he did. and he actually told us um
[01:45:16.080] about that and we contacted Dr. Latsky
[01:45:19.679] and Dr. Latsky uh and uh was was part of
[01:45:25.840] recruiting a team to go in to
[01:45:27.840] investigate that case, interview all the
[01:45:30.080] pilots, interview the people on the
[01:45:31.760] Princeton and also on the Nimmits and uh
[01:45:35.360] then wrote up a report in July 2009.
[01:45:38.320] That case was completely secret until
[01:45:41.280] the New York Times broke the story in
[01:45:43.840] December of 2017. But yeah, I mean we we
[01:45:47.360] were the OSAP were the ones that
[01:45:49.920] investigated that case and it's probably
[01:45:52.159] the best known case UFO case in the
[01:45:54.800] world. Gentlemen, we've been going for a
[01:45:56.960] while here. Maybe we could take a break
[01:45:58.480] and part two I want to talk about AI and
[01:46:01.760] its application. The Capella, by the
[01:46:03.760] way, Robert, the Capella project, the
[01:46:06.480] data warehouse that was uh Dr. Valet's
[01:46:10.159] chief uh project for the OSAP program.
[01:46:13.440] He's still working on it. I don't know
[01:46:14.639] if he's doing that behind your back, but
[01:46:16.080] he's still working on Capella over
[01:46:17.760] there. And
[01:46:18.800] >> I don't have the resources that you
[01:46:21.520] deployed, you know, here in
[01:46:23.920] >> Well, I thought we could talk about that
[01:46:25.119] in our next segment. and I'm I'm doing a
[01:46:29.360] smaller thing with what I've got. But uh
[01:46:33.440] it and also today, you know, it's 15
[01:46:37.440] years later, so computers are much more
[01:46:40.880] able to do many things. So I don't
[01:46:43.280] really need a team to do it.
[01:46:45.600] >> And George, in addition to the AI, Colum
[01:46:47.938] [clears throat] has some a list of good
[01:46:49.520] questions.
[01:46:50.480] >> Yeah. For Jacques. Yeah. We'll turn it
[01:46:52.320] over to Colum here. We had a lot still
[01:46:54.159] to cover, but maybe we can take a little
[01:46:55.600] break and we'll we'll come back and do
[01:46:57.520] part two.
[01:46:58.159] >> Sure.
[01:46:58.400] >> All right.
[01:46:58.960] >> Yeah. [music]
[01:47:00.880] >> Thank you for listening to the Bigalow
[01:47:02.560] podcast. Part two of our discussion
[01:47:04.969] [music] with Jacques Valet will be
[01:47:06.960] available Tuesday, September 15th. If
[01:47:10.880] you have any interesting questions you'd
[01:47:12.639] like to see us address, please send us
[01:47:14.794] [music] a letter to 1899 Westbrooks
[01:47:17.840] Avenue, Las Vegas, Nevada 89032 [music]
[01:47:23.920] Care of Bigalow podcast. Thanks
[01:47:28.549] [music]
[01:47:35.099] >> [music]

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