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The Evolution of AAWSAP, Bigelow Podcast episode 2

The Evolution of AAWSAP, Bigelow Podcast episode 2

[00:00:04.584] [music]
[00:00:09.825] [music]
[00:00:12.559] So, Robert, the first episode of Bigalow
[00:00:15.440] Podcast is out there. The response,
[00:00:17.680] surprising to me at least, has been
[00:00:19.840] overwhelmingly positive. A lot of people
[00:00:22.080] are still digesting it. Um, I mean, in
[00:00:24.640] in UFO world, usually somebody's
[00:00:27.359] attacking you right off the bat, but
[00:00:29.199] this was pretty good. It was
[00:00:30.480] wellreceived. Um, you know, the question
[00:00:32.399] I get from a lot of people who watched
[00:00:34.239] it is, why are you doing it? Why are you
[00:00:37.440] doing it now? And how far do you want to
[00:00:40.160] go?
[00:00:42.480] So I think the uh [clears throat] the
[00:00:44.239] initial push uh was some time back when
[00:00:49.200] with the publishing of um Jim Lowsky's
[00:00:53.680] book in 2023. Then he did a sequel in 25
[00:00:57.199] and another one in 2026. And I have all
[00:01:00.960] three of those books here on the table.
[00:01:03.840] And then uh
[00:01:06.720] uh and then uh later was when I when I
[00:01:10.400] was with the president and was doing the
[00:01:12.159] disclosure advisory kind of thing with
[00:01:14.640] him and giving him some help and ideas
[00:01:17.520] and so on. Um, I realized that
[00:01:21.220] [clears throat]
[00:01:21.759] that I was I was rowing upstream on this
[00:01:25.040] thing against the tide. And the tide was
[00:01:28.320] what the Pentagon had already decided
[00:01:30.799] they were going to do. And what Arrow uh
[00:01:33.439] actually meant as a disguise and
[00:01:39.360] probably a fraudulent effort to squash
[00:01:42.479] dis disclosure. And so I thought, well,
[00:01:46.111] [clears throat]
[00:01:47.040] uh, this isn't fair to the president. If
[00:01:49.280] this is going on behind his back, and
[00:01:51.439] then if if he wants honesty and and
[00:01:53.759] disclosure, then, uh, he needs support
[00:01:57.360] from from the government, from all these
[00:01:59.439] other people, all the, you know, that
[00:02:00.880] are growing the other direction. So, uh,
[00:02:04.079] I would like to I I, uh, actually, uh,
[00:02:07.280] flagged specific areas, um, in Lassk's
[00:02:12.319] book here, the one that he authored in
[00:02:14.640] 2023, I think it is.
[00:02:17.551] [clears throat and cough]
[00:02:18.080] Yeah. and um and then also refer to some
[00:02:22.480] things that Laskkey and George Knap and
[00:02:26.239] Colum Keller uh authored in uh
[00:02:30.400] Skinwalkers at the Pentagon because you
[00:02:32.560] guys did a a really good job.
[00:02:34.000] >> By the way, there before we dive into
[00:02:35.760] that, I don't know if you've seen how
[00:02:37.760] much of the reaction on social media
[00:02:39.360] you've seen to episode one, but it's
[00:02:41.200] pretty overwhelming and and very
[00:02:42.720] creative, too. There's a guy named Joe
[00:02:44.400] Mera who made a a a graphic of you
[00:02:47.440] sitting with the president in the Oval
[00:02:49.200] Office handing him that book. That's
[00:02:51.760] very very clever.
[00:02:52.720] >> Yeah. [laughter] And you're in the
[00:02:54.080] you're I saw that too and you're looking
[00:02:56.319] through the window.
[00:02:57.200] >> Yeah. You know,
[00:02:58.239] >> I didn't see that part of it, but it's
[00:02:59.760] funny. I I think we'll probably maybe
[00:03:01.440] post it there. There are a bunch of
[00:03:02.879] other uh likenesses of you wearing
[00:03:04.720] sunglasses looking like an alien. And
[00:03:06.879] >> well, some of these are cool cuz they're
[00:03:08.400] fun. Yeah. you know, it it makes people
[00:03:10.480] laugh and and uh you know, it's not to
[00:03:12.640] be taken seriously and and so they're
[00:03:14.959] they're kind of fun
[00:03:15.920] >> and it's funny what people will notice.
[00:03:17.920] They they notice this photo right here
[00:03:20.000] in in the background [clears throat] and
[00:03:21.040] they'll comment on it on social media.
[00:03:23.200] >> There's actually a interesting story
[00:03:25.200] behind that photo
[00:03:26.720] >> and a gathering. That's a photo of a
[00:03:28.640] group of us that Lawrence Rockefeller uh
[00:03:30.959] convened at the Rockefeller Ranch uh
[00:03:34.560] right at the base of the Grand Teton
[00:03:36.239] Mountain Range in Jackson Hole, Wyoming.
[00:03:39.120] And um we were there to discuss the pros
[00:03:43.120] and cons of his position on disclosure
[00:03:47.680] way back then. That was a long time ago.
[00:03:50.400] Um, Linda How was there, uh, John Mack
[00:03:54.159] was there, Bruce McCabe, a number of
[00:03:56.239] other folks were there that are that are
[00:03:57.840] well known. And, um, his take was to
[00:04:03.280] convince the president, which at the
[00:04:05.120] time was Bill Clinton, that he needed to
[00:04:08.400] step up and uh, and produce the the
[00:04:13.120] disclosure that was necessary about
[00:04:15.040] about the phenomena and admit that it
[00:04:17.199] exists.
[00:04:18.720] I wasn't sure that he knew that the
[00:04:21.199] president knew. So I had my good friend
[00:04:24.240] Harry Reid. Um
[00:04:27.040] in fact I I was kind of I was more than
[00:04:29.120] just speculating. I had kind of proof
[00:04:31.840] because there were Hubble which you
[00:04:34.240] mentioned his name yesterday wrote a
[00:04:36.400] book and in that book it revealed
[00:04:39.040] something and that Clinton had said. So
[00:04:42.639] I I said to Harry, I said, 'Look at
[00:04:44.240] look, you know, I want you to take this
[00:04:45.919] book and show it to Bill and say, "Did
[00:04:49.600] you really say this?" And in there it
[00:04:51.919] said, President Clinton had said,
[00:04:54.479] "Before I I leave office, I want to know
[00:04:58.000] who really killed JFK and what is all
[00:05:01.199] this UFO ET stuff all about?" And and
[00:05:04.880] Harry said, "Did you really say that?"
[00:05:07.039] Yes. And he said, "Wouldn't you like to
[00:05:08.880] know?" you know, well, Harry had sat in
[00:05:11.280] on many [clears throat] of our meetings
[00:05:12.720] for NIDS, you know, num numerous times.
[00:05:15.600] And so, he already had a feel for what's
[00:05:18.320] going on because we had worldclass
[00:05:20.800] people in that room. We had people from
[00:05:23.120] agencies, we had military people, we had
[00:05:26.000] terrific researchers, people that worked
[00:05:28.479] at at Los Alamos, we had every category
[00:05:31.360] you can think of,
[00:05:32.320] >> astronauts,
[00:05:33.039] >> astronauts, we we had uh uh Edgar
[00:05:35.840] Mitchell and Jack Schmidt there. Uh we
[00:05:38.800] had a a military air force general
[00:05:40.639] there. Um uh you know we we had Ian
[00:05:44.240] Stevenson was there and Bruce G Grayson
[00:05:46.479] was there and Emily Cook was there.
[00:05:48.560] Jessica Us was there. Um
[00:05:52.400] and so uh we had a Marty Pilch and
[00:05:55.360] others that were directors of of Los
[00:05:58.160] Alamos and uh um and um Christopher
[00:06:02.400] Green, Hal Putoff, uh Jacqu Jacqu Filet
[00:06:06.160] was there. So we had the cream of the
[00:06:08.960] crop of thinkers, you know, on the
[00:06:11.680] subjects of the two big ones, are
[00:06:14.009] [clears throat] we alone and what
[00:06:15.680] happens to you after you die? Right. And
[00:06:19.440] um
[00:06:21.120] so um so I was I didn't have a chance to
[00:06:25.039] tell Lawrence that I had found out that
[00:06:28.080] Clinton didn't didn't know.
[00:06:30.560] >> Rockefeller was under the impression
[00:06:32.000] that Clinton knew what knew nothing or
[00:06:34.160] was
[00:06:34.479] >> No, that he did know. He was read in and
[00:06:36.639] then he Yeah. And he was going to try to
[00:06:38.639] convince him to [clears throat]
[00:06:40.800] confess to to admit to to, you know, to
[00:06:44.720] participate in in the in the disclosure
[00:06:47.919] process. Get it started. Anyway,
[00:06:49.680] >> Hillary Clinton was involved in this at
[00:06:51.360] some point with the the Rockefellers,
[00:06:53.120] right, with Lawrence Rockefeller. I
[00:06:54.479] think she I don't know she was at this
[00:06:56.160] meeting, but later on
[00:06:57.840] >> I don't know anything about Hillary
[00:06:59.360] being involved.
[00:07:00.160] >> All right. confirmation was was I think
[00:07:02.479] where I was advocating that it happened
[00:07:05.120] as we were talking about on on the show
[00:07:07.039] here uh the last show. Um I don't recall
[00:07:10.960] anything about Hillary doing that.
[00:07:12.639] >> So there you are working on the research
[00:07:14.479] doing investigations working with the
[00:07:16.400] NIDS team and trying to at least let the
[00:07:19.520] president know or that was a goal is to
[00:07:21.520] let him know hey this is real and
[00:07:23.360] hopefully he would do something about
[00:07:24.479] it. And you're doing the same thing now
[00:07:26.560] many presidents later you're still doing
[00:07:28.400] the same thing. Well, can if it's can I
[00:07:30.800] read some things because I don't want to
[00:07:32.160] screw it up. I want to get it right as
[00:07:34.160] to the dates and and and the and the
[00:07:37.120] twist here, the spin that has happened
[00:07:39.440] over the last couple of years, two,
[00:07:41.039] three years, four four or five years.
[00:07:43.680] So, in Lowsky's book, and this has been
[00:07:46.479] sanctioned, this has been briefed and
[00:07:48.560] scrubbed as have all all of his books,
[00:07:51.280] all three of his books, um, from the
[00:07:53.919] Pentagon and and the process,
[00:07:56.080] >> the DIA. Yeah. Yeah. So he
[00:07:58.819] [clears throat] writes in the
[00:07:59.680] introduction here on on June 25, 2021
[00:08:04.080] was a revolutionary day when the office
[00:08:06.720] of the director of national uh
[00:08:08.400] intelligence ODNI made the long awaited
[00:08:11.840] announcement that UFOs were real.
[00:08:15.680] Okay. So June 25, 2021, ODNI said
[00:08:21.039] they're real.
[00:08:22.879] In releasing their report entitled
[00:08:25.199] preliminary assessment uh unidentified
[00:08:27.919] aerial phenomena, ODNI
[00:08:32.320] provided
[00:08:33.839] uh their sober assessments that UFOs no
[00:08:37.120] longer were to be ridiculed and mocked.
[00:08:40.399] Part of the media coverage included
[00:08:42.320] statements like we absolutely do believe
[00:08:44.959] that we're seeing not simply senior
[00:08:48.560] strike that sensor artifacts.
[00:08:51.200] there are things that physically exist.
[00:08:54.080] They confirmed it.
[00:08:56.320] Then [clears throat] go forward. Um
[00:09:00.080] and and and five months later, Deputy
[00:09:03.360] Secretary Kathleen Hicks announced the
[00:09:05.680] creation of a new organization run by
[00:09:08.240] the Pentagon
[00:09:10.160] called uh Airborne Object Identification
[00:09:12.640] and Management Synchronization Group.
[00:09:15.279] Who the hell comes up with these these
[00:09:17.519] names? I I think that acronym they
[00:09:19.440] started pronouncing it AISOG which who's
[00:09:22.160] >> I don't know. So then, okay, so 5 months
[00:09:25.360] later, you [clears throat] you have that
[00:09:27.600] initiative.
[00:09:29.120] Then on July 15th, 2022,
[00:09:33.040] Kathleen Hicks renames it again and
[00:09:36.160] changes it and expands the scope and she
[00:09:39.360] calls it the All Domain Anomaly
[00:09:41.839] Resolution Office, Arrow,
[00:09:44.560] which exists today, I think, as the tip
[00:09:47.360] of the sword. Okay. in this in this
[00:09:50.080] effort by the government to push back
[00:09:52.640] >> to push back and I'm not sure how much
[00:09:55.680] the president today Trump knows about
[00:09:58.560] this but he should and so then we have
[00:10:02.240] there's a close coordination
[00:10:04.640] uh Licassy writes between of the
[00:10:06.800] Pentagon spokesman Susan Gao and Kurt
[00:10:09.680] Patrick Dr. group became obvious after
[00:10:13.519] the aerrol report on UFOs was released
[00:10:15.920] on January 12, 2023.
[00:10:20.320] The report was notable for its blandness
[00:10:22.800] and lack of detail and noted that 510
[00:10:26.240] reports had been accumulated by August
[00:10:29.040] 30 of 2022. That's in a very short
[00:10:32.000] window, very short time. Then on April
[00:10:35.200] the 19th, 2023, Kurpatre testified
[00:10:38.640] before
[00:10:40.160] Senator Gildebrand's Senate Armed
[00:10:42.240] Services Committee. He's he's I'm
[00:10:45.040] assuming he's testing under oath. He's
[00:10:47.360] swearing, wouldn't you?
[00:10:49.519] >> Yeah.
[00:10:50.720] >> I want to underscore today that only a
[00:10:53.839] very small percentage of UAP reports
[00:10:56.480] display signatures that could reasonably
[00:10:58.959] be described as anomalous.
[00:11:02.640] Kirkpatre added, [clears throat] "Arow
[00:11:05.040] has found no credible evidence thus far
[00:11:08.720] of extraterrestrial activity, off-world
[00:11:11.360] technology, or objects that defy the
[00:11:13.920] known laws of physics." This is April
[00:11:16.240] the 19th, 2023.
[00:11:19.920] It's a far cry from what ODNI said in
[00:11:22.560] 2021, right? And it's very it's also a
[00:11:25.519] far cry from what ODNI is saying now.
[00:11:28.079] They just issued, you know, they started
[00:11:29.600] a program last year called DIG that
[00:11:32.320] looked into a number of different
[00:11:33.519] interesting topics. They asked me and
[00:11:36.480] Jeremy Corbel for some help in getting
[00:11:38.399] people to come forward. They have since
[00:11:41.040] announced that it was all nonsense, that
[00:11:43.120] it's all grifters and liars and people
[00:11:45.279] want attention. All of it. Wave of their
[00:11:47.600] hand and wipe it out.
[00:11:49.120] >> So, doesn't this really stink? I mean,
[00:11:50.959] we've been on a lot of cattle mutilation
[00:11:52.480] cases and they're so bad. That's so
[00:11:54.399] ranked. this the odor and the smell from
[00:11:56.399] those animals, it burns your throat, you
[00:11:58.560] know, to to to breathe and get anywhere
[00:12:01.040] close to them. It just burns your
[00:12:02.320] throat. This has that kind of a sting to
[00:12:04.480] it, you know. So, uh I I think that uh
[00:12:09.519] we have a contamination here which is is
[00:12:13.120] pushing against disclosure. This
[00:12:15.040] seriously serious. You know, there have
[00:12:17.200] been periods like this in the past, you
[00:12:19.040] know, where the public is deeply
[00:12:20.399] interested, the media take the the topic
[00:12:22.880] seriously, members of Congress are
[00:12:24.800] asking questions, uh, you know, a push
[00:12:27.600] for some kind of transparency or
[00:12:29.279] disclosure and they tend to go away.
[00:12:32.000] It's what it's been building up to the
[00:12:33.920] point where you could talk to the
[00:12:35.040] president and say, "Hey, this is
[00:12:36.240] serious." And yet people in his own
[00:12:38.320] administration, whether he knows it or
[00:12:40.000] not, are doing their best to quash it.
[00:12:42.720] Well, this is this has national security
[00:12:44.880] implications because Harry Reid was was
[00:12:47.920] right. Senator Reid was right. Uh and
[00:12:49.760] you guys cover this in your book. And um
[00:12:55.200] and so you're [clears throat] you're
[00:12:56.720] talking about by the end of May 2009,
[00:12:59.440] the the program started in September of
[00:13:02.480] 2008.
[00:13:03.200] >> OAP. We're talking our program OSAP. Um,
[00:13:07.040] and that was the only real program that
[00:13:08.959] was the mother of all programs since
[00:13:12.079] Blue Book ended in [clears throat]
[00:13:14.720] ' 69. It was terminated. So, you and I
[00:13:17.920] recall and other researchers do too. You
[00:13:20.320] had um Project Sign, Project Grudge, uh,
[00:13:24.000] the the Robinson panel and the Cudigra,
[00:13:27.680] the Condan report all cover up efforts.
[00:13:31.600] Every single one of them cover up
[00:13:32.959] efforts. And it turned out I think if
[00:13:35.120] I'm not mistaken that blue book was also
[00:13:37.440] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[00:13:38.240] >> Right. Yeah.
[00:13:39.040] >> Yeah. So
[00:13:41.519] uh and so all these years DIA starts the
[00:13:45.920] OSAP program and for the first time you
[00:13:49.279] have an honest approach to discovery
[00:13:52.399] process to trying to learn what
[00:13:54.160] everything is about and all the other
[00:13:57.040] paranormal uh events. And we were a a
[00:14:00.480] UFO uh program. But [clears throat] the
[00:14:03.760] wisdom of Jim Lacowsky was great because
[00:14:06.320] you know he knew that there are
[00:14:08.720] ancillary kinds of events that occur
[00:14:11.360] that are are really paranormal basket
[00:14:14.880] kinds of things. This goes
[00:14:16.749] [clears throat] into the consciousness
[00:14:18.320] aspect of physics and everything. Um
[00:14:23.279] that that is a really interesting domain
[00:14:25.199] to talk about which is foundational to
[00:14:27.839] everything George. It's it's uh um
[00:14:31.920] consciousness ultimately is responsible
[00:14:34.079] for everything in the universe that you
[00:14:36.320] can think of. Everything
[00:14:38.880] everything consciousness is here before
[00:14:41.199] the universe is here. You think
[00:14:45.279] >> okay
[00:14:46.720] >> maybe maybe that's
[00:14:47.839] >> No no you opened up the box you know.
[00:14:49.920] Wait a second. Oh, wait a second. Okay,
[00:14:52.120] [clears throat]
[00:14:54.240] first of all, we have proof that you
[00:14:57.040] survived your container, which is a huge
[00:14:59.279] freaking step for people to digest that.
[00:15:02.959] If you [clears throat] are
[00:15:05.040] if you have certain religious
[00:15:06.399] backgrounds or you're a confirmed
[00:15:08.720] staunch atheist or maybe staunch
[00:15:11.120] agnostic kind of person, you can't
[00:15:13.680] digest this. It doesn't h it's very
[00:15:16.399] difficult to swallow it and try to
[00:15:18.320] understand it. um if you're a researcher
[00:15:21.920] and extensively
[00:15:23.839] it it really it it it it matters a lot
[00:15:27.199] and also if you've had demonstrations
[00:15:30.560] personal demonstrations and exhibitions
[00:15:33.440] of things u it really helps and
[00:15:36.639] sometimes you recall what you witnessed
[00:15:40.240] and what you saw and you you just say
[00:15:43.680] did that really happen? Yeah, it really
[00:15:45.760] happened. Those things really happened.
[00:15:47.600] you know, multiple different kinds of
[00:15:49.279] things. And um so
[00:15:53.759] so the the thing of it is um the
[00:15:56.959] probability my my opinion is the
[00:16:00.160] universe is an open system. It's not
[00:16:02.880] closed. It's not finite, which means it
[00:16:06.480] didn't have a beginning.
[00:16:09.839] Open systems don't have a a start and a
[00:16:12.399] stop. It's not a finite. It's not a
[00:16:15.360] finite system. is open.
[00:16:18.480] Um
[00:16:22.320] it's the consciousness aspect is that
[00:16:27.096] [clears throat]
[00:16:27.680] we have on the table over here the
[00:16:30.240] results from a contest that we initiated
[00:16:32.800] in 2021. It took the entire year and uh
[00:16:36.959] it was about proving beyond a reasonable
[00:16:40.160] doubt that the survival of permanent
[00:16:44.639] bodily death is real
[00:16:47.279] that we go on
[00:16:48.160] >> that we go on. And so you become a
[00:16:51.199] function of thought.
[00:16:53.519] And so you say, well, how is that
[00:16:55.040] possible without a body, without a
[00:16:56.720] container? That's impossible. It's not.
[00:16:59.600] And you have to get into all kinds of
[00:17:01.680] things that uh thought is very powerful.
[00:17:07.360] Uh and it's not just because the
[00:17:09.199] Heisenberg double slit experiment in
[00:17:11.120] quantum mechanics. That's the bare tip
[00:17:13.679] of the iceberg. That that is, you know,
[00:17:16.640] Dr. Bob John and Brenda Dunn in the
[00:17:19.520] basement of the chemistry building in
[00:17:20.959] Princeton had their laboratory on being
[00:17:23.120] able to have a a computer screen that
[00:17:26.959] had a static line across the screen. And
[00:17:29.760] this was a really simple experiment but
[00:17:31.440] a lot of fun. And then you had a random
[00:17:33.280] event generator causing a second line to
[00:17:35.919] occur. And [clears throat] those
[00:17:37.600] electrons are being flipped a million
[00:17:40.720] times a second by the random event
[00:17:43.120] generator. So it should always be 50/50.
[00:17:45.039] The line is equal. It's not deviating
[00:17:48.080] and in that. So if you're sitting there
[00:17:50.720] concentrating, you're trying to if
[00:17:52.799] you're trying to concentrate, you can
[00:17:53.919] make a deviation in that line above the
[00:17:55.679] static or below the static line and it
[00:17:58.160] works. And he had hundreds of thousands
[00:18:00.880] of trials. He had most of a lot of the
[00:18:02.960] students there from Princeton doing
[00:18:05.600] those trials and he he wrote a terrific
[00:18:07.760] book on this. Okay, this is just an
[00:18:10.400] elementary basic kind of understanding
[00:18:12.559] that consciousness can have an effect on
[00:18:15.120] inanimate on on on material products on
[00:18:18.480] on materials on on um
[00:18:23.280] that by just pure observation you can
[00:18:26.000] have an effect on subatomic particles.
[00:18:29.120] I'll put it that way. That's the
[00:18:30.400] appropriate vernacular.
[00:18:32.857] [clears throat] and you cause deviations
[00:18:35.440] according to your intent.
[00:18:38.559] Um so consciousness has an effect in our
[00:18:42.720] dimension that we can initiate through
[00:18:44.880] various other kinds of things.
[00:18:46.720] Clairvoyance, precognition,
[00:18:49.679] um remote viewing, um
[00:18:54.960] mediumship, there are a lot of ways that
[00:18:57.520] not all mediums are fraud fraudulent. Uh
[00:19:00.400] and there's some gold star uh remote
[00:19:02.880] viewers um and uh SRRI uh Stanford
[00:19:07.360] Research Institute and and friends of
[00:19:09.600] ours that we know Hal Putoff and Kit
[00:19:11.919] Green were very involved in that uh and
[00:19:14.720] they studied people like Yuri Geller for
[00:19:17.760] extensively and phenomenal uh
[00:19:20.640] performers. And one of the things they
[00:19:23.600] learned that's kind of fun is that most
[00:19:26.400] people have the ability to function to
[00:19:31.840] produce anomalous results that our
[00:19:35.440] normal five senses shouldn't be able to
[00:19:37.919] produce. And you're not using those.
[00:19:39.679] You're using a six kind of sense, you
[00:19:42.320] know. So, back to the the universal
[00:19:46.320] situation. Um, if you have a universe
[00:19:50.640] that never had a beginning and never had
[00:19:53.200] an end and you still have a mystery of
[00:19:56.960] things moving away, um, which is fine
[00:20:01.520] until the Hubble became antiquated
[00:20:04.720] because it could only see out about 13
[00:20:06.480] and a half billion lighty years. Well,
[00:20:08.960] the web telescope goes 33 billion 34
[00:20:12.400] billion lighty years and then it becomes
[00:20:14.240] very difficult for the theory and
[00:20:16.240] remember big bang is just a theory. It's
[00:20:18.799] not fact. It has nothing to do with
[00:20:20.240] fact. Um and um I'll tell you maybe
[00:20:24.320] about a conversation I had with
[00:20:25.520] Mishokaku uh for about an hour. Um on
[00:20:29.440] the God Equation book that he wrote, you
[00:20:31.520] know, uh interesting thing there.
[00:20:33.919] Anyway, uh [clears throat]
[00:20:36.000] so
[00:20:38.000] so you have you have uh something that
[00:20:40.720] falls apart as a big bang as as a theory
[00:20:42.960] of a beginning. And there never was a
[00:20:45.760] satisfactory theory about that at all.
[00:20:48.080] And it took about what 11 different uh
[00:20:51.280] theories for string theory to even to be
[00:20:53.679] able to function, to close the donut, to
[00:20:55.679] close the loop, to to make it work. And
[00:20:59.360] they had they uh used hand calcs uh was
[00:21:03.840] which is a euphemism for forcing the
[00:21:05.919] math to work and and you use they use
[00:21:09.200] they made up the constants as to what uh
[00:21:11.600] existed prebang and so because you had a
[00:21:15.679] particle you you're saying that the
[00:21:17.840] everything was created from nothing and
[00:21:20.559] something that was very very small you
[00:21:22.880] know smaller than a sugar cube and that
[00:21:25.760] later expanded but you're not exactly
[00:21:27.600] sure how it expanded.
[00:21:29.120] And you have no uh explanation for where
[00:21:32.080] did the instructions come from to cause
[00:21:34.480] the expansion and by the way where did
[00:21:36.559] the initial cube come from?
[00:21:38.000] >> Yeah. And you're talking about a density
[00:21:40.480] of mass that is impossible
[00:21:44.480] for the amount of mass that we already
[00:21:46.240] see. But we have another problem and
[00:21:49.360] that is entropy.
[00:21:51.760] All material objects eventually run out
[00:21:55.039] of control and they decay. uh and that
[00:21:58.960] is a function of entropy and so um
[00:22:04.159] but um we don't see if you have an open
[00:22:08.880] universe and and you have order there's
[00:22:11.440] an order in our universe in our galaxies
[00:22:14.720] they don't discombobulate
[00:22:18.559] like they should after it's a billion or
[00:22:20.720] two years and they're lasting 12 10 12
[00:22:24.000] maybe 14 billion uh years uh they
[00:22:27.360] couldn't. There's a problem here.
[00:22:31.280] The problem is we have a huge amount of
[00:22:33.760] energy we can't identify. I think I know
[00:22:37.280] what it is. And they have words like
[00:22:39.520] dark energy and dark matter. Okay? Which
[00:22:42.080] is 95 96%
[00:22:44.480] of all the frigin energy in the
[00:22:46.559] universe.
[00:22:47.120] >> But we haven't quite found it yet.
[00:22:48.400] >> We haven't we don't know what the hell
[00:22:49.679] it is. But part of it uh the dark energy
[00:22:52.960] part provides prevents entropy. It
[00:22:56.799] provides order so that these huge
[00:23:00.320] systems these gigantic systems like the
[00:23:02.400] Milky Way is like 150,000 lighty years
[00:23:04.799] and it's elliptical in in uh in length
[00:23:08.159] and about 75,000 lighty years in
[00:23:10.000] diameter huge. Each lightyear 6 trillion
[00:23:13.039] miles you know and the nearest star is
[00:23:16.080] 24 trillion miles away four light years
[00:23:18.000] so huge distances
[00:23:20.400] and so that's part of the problem that
[00:23:21.760] they can't get here from there kind of
[00:23:24.159] thinking. Okay, but for that's another
[00:23:26.799] story. So, so then you say, well, wait a
[00:23:29.360] second.
[00:23:31.039] We can only find 4 to 5% of the entire
[00:23:34.159] energy of the universe.
[00:23:36.960] What where did the other 96 95%.
[00:23:40.080] What is it?
[00:23:43.600] So you find so you by studying
[00:23:45.520] consciousness
[00:23:48.080] you start at the itty bitty electrons
[00:23:51.200] which are reactionary according to human
[00:23:54.799] observation according to consciousness
[00:23:58.480] and then they become in a specific
[00:24:01.039] location upon measurement or being
[00:24:05.039] noticed as being watched.
[00:24:08.080] Um
[00:24:10.320] and then you magnify that into
[00:24:14.480] uh larger other kinds of other kinds of
[00:24:17.520] systems. And like let's take the human
[00:24:21.120] body.
[00:24:23.520] If the human body doesn't need its
[00:24:25.279] container, it's 100%
[00:24:28.640] existing in consciousness as thought.
[00:24:32.480] And we definitely have proof that we
[00:24:35.760] have a a three-dimensional system. Not
[00:24:38.240] counting time as a fourth dimension.
[00:24:40.320] Just say keep it simple. Three
[00:24:42.080] dimensional system, you know, and we
[00:24:45.520] coexist with another another dimension.
[00:24:49.360] There's a consciousness kind of existing
[00:24:51.520] dimension. That is where we go after the
[00:24:55.279] container dies. And the proof the the
[00:24:59.120] point of the whole damn essay program,
[00:25:01.600] you know, was to provide proof. So, we
[00:25:05.200] said,
[00:25:06.720] "We want no more than 25,000 words per
[00:25:09.679] essay, and the winners are
[00:25:12.412] [clears throat] going to make a lot of
[00:25:13.679] money uh providing you can prove beyond
[00:25:16.960] a reasonable doubt. You're proving to
[00:25:18.559] the to the court that this is real. And
[00:25:21.760] so, you better use everything you can
[00:25:23.520] think of to prove that it's real.
[00:25:26.480] Well,
[00:25:28.720] uh, we had we had seven amazing judges,
[00:25:33.039] uh, Dr. Brian Weiss, we I don't want to
[00:25:34.880] name them all. Um, but people who had
[00:25:37.520] been been students of and studying of
[00:25:39.760] the paranormal most of their a lot of
[00:25:42.080] their lives and they and they had a lot
[00:25:45.919] of information to be able to judge the
[00:25:48.080] good, bad, and the ugly of an essay. Uh,
[00:25:50.880] Jeffrey Michishlov won first place. Leo
[00:25:53.520] Rookie won third place and he works here
[00:25:56.960] for us and and then Vinlam Pummel uh
[00:26:00.960] Vinlam Pummel the Dutch doctor uh he won
[00:26:04.159] second place.
[00:26:04.799] >> We're talking about Bix the Bigalow
[00:26:06.240] Institute for Consciousness Studies
[00:26:07.679] which is the primary focus of your work.
[00:26:09.840] Yeah, you published these into hardcover
[00:26:11.919] form. Beautiful books. I I've got a set
[00:26:14.640] of these. I haven't read them all but
[00:26:16.559] I've read a lot of them and it's it's
[00:26:18.159] just wonderful stuff.
[00:26:19.200] >> So we had 1400 we had 38 countries
[00:26:21.360] represented. we had and I know we're
[00:26:22.880] getting off the UFO subject but in a way
[00:26:24.480] we're not we'll come back
[00:26:25.440] >> in a way we're not
[00:26:26.640] >> right
[00:26:27.200] >> okay
[00:26:29.279] and in spirituality is really important
[00:26:30.960] as a conversation that's huge that is
[00:26:34.240] absolutely huge as what is the whole
[00:26:36.640] point what gives you meaning and purpose
[00:26:39.200] in life and what what you know so anyway
[00:26:42.799] um
[00:26:44.640] so the we have 1400
[00:26:48.720] come in and and so the judge judges was
[00:26:51.679] down selected to 205 something like that
[00:26:54.960] essays and they had 5 months to read all
[00:26:57.279] these things
[00:26:59.520] and I I said I thought okay we're going
[00:27:01.679] to have a first second this is how naive
[00:27:03.360] I was going to have a first second and
[00:27:05.279] third prize
[00:27:07.039] $950,000
[00:27:09.679] well about 60 days and they they had
[00:27:12.880] five months about 60 days before they to
[00:27:14.720] give their decision they're all arguing
[00:27:16.159] the judges between themselves there's no
[00:27:18.400] way they can compact this into three
[00:27:19.919] winners So, we have to expand it. About
[00:27:23.360] 30 days, they're arguing all over again.
[00:27:26.000] I had to expand it again. So now we are
[00:27:29.039] at 28 winners and a,800,000
[00:27:33.360] in awards plus really nice crystal
[00:27:36.159] trophies, you know, to put on your
[00:27:37.919] mantle and like, you know, and uh
[00:27:41.840] because these were so good. The essays
[00:27:43.760] were so damn good that so we compiled
[00:27:47.039] all of them and they're on our website
[00:27:48.960] and we put them into print in these in
[00:27:50.960] these books. We also recorded
[00:27:52.480] interviews. Matt Adams, who's here with
[00:27:54.240] us today. Matt Adams and I interviewed
[00:27:56.080] the W winners, recorded it on videotape.
[00:27:59.600] We're going to have to put those up on
[00:28:00.960] your your podcast website.
[00:28:02.880] >> Yeah. December 4th of 21, we had a big
[00:28:05.919] party at the plant in one of the big uh
[00:28:08.720] bays there, you know, uh with a 80 foot
[00:28:12.000] ceiling on it. Um and we had a great
[00:28:14.799] time that night, you know, nice food and
[00:28:16.720] everything. And everybody got up to talk
[00:28:18.799] and about their awards and everything
[00:28:20.960] was presented to them. the check and the
[00:28:22.880] the trophies and all and that was a that
[00:28:25.360] was a great gathering.
[00:28:26.720] >> You and I are going to have a deep dive
[00:28:28.720] into consciousness matters in this
[00:28:31.360] format in the Bigalow podcast a lot of a
[00:28:34.240] lot of shows I hope consuming we're
[00:28:36.320] going to continue but I think uh it it
[00:28:38.480] sort of brings it full circle to the
[00:28:40.480] question that started it off. What do
[00:28:42.480] you want to do with this? How far do you
[00:28:44.720] want to go? Uh both on the UFO topic and
[00:28:47.440] consciousness. I mean, you've been
[00:28:48.960] involved in UFO research for a long time
[00:28:51.520] at the highest levels with government
[00:28:54.000] agencies, government officials,
[00:28:56.480] presidents, etc. You've learned a lot of
[00:28:58.960] things that you have not shared with the
[00:29:00.559] public. How far you're willing to go now
[00:29:03.279] in this format,
[00:29:05.919] >> as long as I have and as much as it
[00:29:07.840] takes and and I need to close something
[00:29:11.360] that I started in this discussion.
[00:29:13.600] >> Sure.
[00:29:14.880] >> Um [sighs and gasps]
[00:29:17.840] So we have an open system in the
[00:29:20.240] universe. We have a power that's 95 96%
[00:29:23.600] of it that we don't know what it is.
[00:29:25.679] Dark energy and dark matter
[00:29:28.559] but um it controls and we don't have
[00:29:32.480] entropy. We don't have disintegration of
[00:29:35.360] our of our galaxies.
[00:29:38.880] So the only thing that seems to me
[00:29:40.720] that's left is how big can we measure
[00:29:45.760] consciousness?
[00:29:47.279] How powerful is it? If we can do a
[00:29:49.919] little bitty teeny thing with an
[00:29:51.120] electron on a on a screen on a monitor
[00:29:55.760] just by willing and wanting it to do it
[00:29:58.320] and the and the people are funny.
[00:29:59.679] They're performers. They'll grunt.
[00:30:01.120] They'll strain. They'll jump up and
[00:30:02.399] down. All kinds of things to try and
[00:30:04.000] make it happen. And they have most of
[00:30:05.679] them have some effect. Some have really
[00:30:07.919] good effects. They substantial effects
[00:30:09.919] you know but it's an individual
[00:30:13.039] relationship that you try to establish
[00:30:15.279] as to your technique is is individual
[00:30:18.559] type of technique.
[00:30:20.640] So
[00:30:23.760] so the research says that on the planet
[00:30:27.760] earth just one little planet
[00:30:31.360] that [clears throat] 100 people 100
[00:30:32.799] billion people have died. I didn't
[00:30:35.200] believe this at first. I said, "No, this
[00:30:37.039] I I don't how know how we can be at 8 8
[00:30:39.600] and a quart billion. And how do you get
[00:30:41.679] to 100 billion people that have existed
[00:30:44.000] pre-existed and already died?"
[00:30:46.799] Well, apparently it it's a function of
[00:30:49.840] that a lot of people didn't live very
[00:30:51.520] long. Uh a lot of propagation, a lot of
[00:30:54.320] births happened, a lot of people died
[00:30:56.320] very young. So, you didn't have
[00:30:58.399] longevity for most of mankind's
[00:31:00.720] existence until just recently. Uh yeah,
[00:31:03.520] we took till 1800 to to acquire the
[00:31:06.080] first billion. 1900 though we got the
[00:31:08.240] second billion. So in just a hundred
[00:31:09.679] years it took us to do what the 18,800
[00:31:12.320] years or all the years before that up to
[00:31:14.240] 1800 had acquired and now we're doing it
[00:31:16.720] just like about every decade. You know
[00:31:18.640] it's really sped up and we'll be at
[00:31:21.440] maybe 12 billion. uh not before too long
[00:31:24.480] and that might be a density tipping
[00:31:26.799] point kind of issue. Um if other things
[00:31:30.720] don't cause us wor more problems than
[00:31:32.799] that before we get there and and maybe
[00:31:35.360] sooner than than later. So uh 100
[00:31:38.720] billion people have passed away have
[00:31:41.200] passed over as they say right and we're
[00:31:44.480] just one planet. Um,
[00:31:48.240] so what's the amount of if the universe
[00:31:51.279] is virtually unlimited, we know at least
[00:31:53.840] we're out to 34 billion lighty years and
[00:31:57.279] and that's a radius.
[00:32:00.000] That's not a that's not a diameter.
[00:32:01.679] That's a radius.
[00:32:03.840] That's a long freaking way. That's a
[00:32:05.519] huge distance.
[00:32:08.000] uh
[00:32:09.600] what what's the size of the
[00:32:11.600] consciousness that that has passed over
[00:32:15.279] and now exists in a different form
[00:32:17.519] that's more powerful than we and you you
[00:32:19.760] and I are sitting here they you have
[00:32:22.480] more ability George you will have more
[00:32:24.640] ability than you have in your container
[00:32:28.640] uh in many different ways and so
[00:32:32.577] [clears throat] as that as that and
[00:32:34.320] you've become a word that is hard to
[00:32:37.039] digest the word immortal.
[00:32:39.440] And and as a researcher, you understand
[00:32:41.440] this, but it doesn't make sense to
[00:32:42.799] somebody that's not. It it makes it's
[00:32:45.440] goofy that you become immortal as
[00:32:47.600] thought. It it sounds it is totally
[00:32:49.760] goofy thinking because we can't relate
[00:32:51.679] to anything that's immortal. Nothing
[00:32:53.279] that we know from the time we born to
[00:32:55.279] the time we die lasts forever. Nothing
[00:32:58.720] does,
[00:33:00.320] you know, planets don't. and and so um
[00:33:04.880] so we
[00:33:06.960] have a hard time imagining that but
[00:33:09.360] let's let's just say for the sake of
[00:33:10.799] conversation it's true just say let's
[00:33:13.200] just say for the sake of conversation
[00:33:15.039] all of those that say all the scientists
[00:33:17.039] all the people that have done this all
[00:33:18.960] their lives are right and you do survive
[00:33:22.480] permanent bodily death
[00:33:25.632] [clears throat] that's an enormous body
[00:33:28.240] of consciousness that's almost
[00:33:30.720] inconceivable ably huge
[00:33:33.440] and over a period of time it grows in
[00:33:36.559] spirituality
[00:33:38.159] and the research says there's only two
[00:33:39.919] things that really become important to
[00:33:42.480] acquire love and knowledge ultimately
[00:33:45.840] that's the only two things that really
[00:33:47.279] matter
[00:33:49.360] and but even if you're on the other side
[00:33:50.960] it is it doesn't man mean that that upon
[00:33:53.679] death you're you are immediately an
[00:33:55.440] angel the good bad and the ugly is still
[00:33:58.399] your personality is still there Um, and
[00:34:01.919] we can talk about more of this later,
[00:34:03.279] but as a spirit, I my my definition of
[00:34:06.480] your character as a spirit is your soul.
[00:34:08.960] And so that that defines your character
[00:34:11.280] defines what kind of spirit you are. But
[00:34:13.599] over time, you become more and more.
[00:34:17.599] And then reincarnation is also part of
[00:34:20.000] the part of the topic which
[00:34:22.879] uh a lady I used to know in high school
[00:34:25.119] one time gave me a book on
[00:34:26.079] reincarnation. I said, "Oh my god, don't
[00:34:28.639] give me this. I don't have time for this
[00:34:30.639] stuff. And then years later, I started
[00:34:32.960] reading it and getting into these
[00:34:34.240] subjects and I realized, oh my gosh,
[00:34:36.560] Marilyn was right. She this book is is
[00:34:40.399] amazing. And then the more you read, the
[00:34:42.560] more you study, the more amazing it
[00:34:44.159] gets. So, but at some point,
[00:34:47.440] incarnations are are irrelevant. You
[00:34:50.240] don't learn anything more. There's no
[00:34:52.240] nothing to learn. Remember, learning is
[00:34:54.000] half of it. Knowledge is half of it. And
[00:34:56.800] love is the other part. So, so
[00:34:59.954] [clears throat] then you grow in
[00:35:01.839] spirituality that is tremendous
[00:35:05.280] and your your knowledge and your ability
[00:35:07.280] is huge is tremendous as well. So what
[00:35:11.760] does this start to accumulate? I I think
[00:35:15.680] uh what you have a su is a super
[00:35:18.320] collective consciousness.
[00:35:20.800] a super super collective consciousness
[00:35:24.560] that's unbelievably powerful is a
[00:35:27.520] creator consciousness.
[00:35:30.160] So at the very least is the source of
[00:35:34.079] unifying control.
[00:35:36.880] I think it represents dark energy and
[00:35:38.800] dark matter and I think it maintains
[00:35:42.240] control of the other 4% of the energy.
[00:35:47.280] You know the boy have I put everybody to
[00:35:49.200] sleep. [laughter]
[00:35:49.920] >> Consciousness has become sort of a
[00:35:51.440] buzzword in UFO circles. I hear it from
[00:35:53.680] people tossed out all the time. They
[00:35:55.599] never explain it. And I don't think they
[00:35:57.440] know their butt from a hole in the
[00:35:58.720] ground when they're trying to say that
[00:35:59.920] the two are connected. You have studied
[00:36:02.480] this. You and your team have studied it.
[00:36:04.480] But we're going to dive into it.
[00:36:05.760] >> And not just studied it. We have re we
[00:36:08.240] have experiences.
[00:36:09.359] >> Yeah. We have experiences that you have
[00:36:11.920] to pinch yourself to try to be sure to
[00:36:15.680] to that that those all those different
[00:36:17.440] things really happen.
[00:36:19.520] >> Well, how it fits into the UFO mystery
[00:36:22.160] uh is is takes a little harder time to
[00:36:24.720] explain, but we will do it in the course
[00:36:26.640] of our conversations. I want to take it
[00:36:28.480] back.
[00:36:28.640] >> Well, knew it though. I know.
[00:36:30.240] >> Well, Cassie, he gave us he gave us
[00:36:32.240] instructions not to ignore anything that
[00:36:34.880] was not just, you know, UFO uh kind of
[00:36:39.520] the genre of of of eupfology that if we
[00:36:43.119] had other kinds of mystifications,
[00:36:46.000] um things that mystified us, we were to
[00:36:48.160] absolutely go down that path and try to
[00:36:51.839] try to do experiments. And I've done
[00:36:54.960] different kinds of experiments we hardly
[00:36:57.520] anybody knows about. Um
[00:37:01.359] and I I one of our security personnel
[00:37:05.599] and the ranch manager were involved in
[00:37:08.160] in those experiments that I did. Um and
[00:37:12.400] those were uh for my own edifica my own
[00:37:17.280] information and knowledge to just see
[00:37:19.520] what could be done um using
[00:37:22.320] consciousness at the time. you know, can
[00:37:25.359] I have can you have an effect on things
[00:37:27.520] at a distance? And um that and the
[00:37:31.839] answer is absolutely you can.
[00:37:34.160] >> We will dive into all those and get into
[00:37:36.160] into details about what happened to your
[00:37:38.320] employees and to you and to others that
[00:37:40.720] that we know really well. Just bring it
[00:37:43.200] back to the UFO conversation which is
[00:37:45.359] where we started. Yeah.
[00:37:46.800] >> With the first episode.
[00:37:48.000] >> Yeah. the fact that you talked to the
[00:37:49.599] president basic level. You wanted to see
[00:37:52.320] how much he knows and especially I think
[00:37:55.280] you wanted to know is he aware that
[00:37:57.280] people who work for him in the executive
[00:37:59.839] branch are pushing back against his
[00:38:03.599] proposals for transparency and you have
[00:38:06.240] direct personal experience with how that
[00:38:08.720] works because of the OSAP program. Um
[00:38:12.000] talk about a a combination of
[00:38:14.320] consciousness and UFOs. That's where it
[00:38:16.320] started. Jim Latsky. And I know there
[00:38:18.720] are those out there say OAP wasn't real.
[00:38:21.200] It was some kind of a sweetheart thing
[00:38:22.720] where you got federal money. Harry Reid
[00:38:25.040] did it all for you. And the fact that
[00:38:26.960] the documents, the reports that you
[00:38:28.880] produced have not been made public, that
[00:38:31.040] shows that it's not real. So, let's go
[00:38:32.720] back to the start of that OAP. This was
[00:38:35.760] a this was an offer that walked in the
[00:38:37.920] door. It was a phone call from the DIA
[00:38:40.320] to you, right?
[00:38:41.119] >> Yeah. Yeah. I I wasn't sure it was real,
[00:38:43.920] you know. I had to authenticate him and
[00:38:45.440] he knew that and so he gave me the means
[00:38:48.240] to be able to information to be able to
[00:38:50.079] authenticate. Who the hell is this Jim
[00:38:51.920] LCI guy that claims yada yada yada yada.
[00:38:54.800] >> Is it a phone call or a letter?
[00:38:56.240] >> I think it was a letter. And what did he
[00:38:57.760] say? He introduced himself and he says
[00:39:00.960] uh I I think uh he wanted to see the
[00:39:03.359] skinwalker ranch and he was a he was
[00:39:06.000] aware of it and um I thought wow this is
[00:39:10.000] and that and so um I think he mentioned
[00:39:14.400] something about
[00:39:16.560] um
[00:39:18.160] we need we need to secure I'm not sure
[00:39:20.000] if he if he said something about secure
[00:39:21.760] funding but I there was something there
[00:39:23.760] that caused me to contact Reed Harry
[00:39:26.320] Reid and say Okay. Um, look, here's
[00:39:30.240] here's this letter.
[00:39:32.320] This is something I think that's super
[00:39:34.000] important because it's the first time
[00:39:35.920] that we actually have a government
[00:39:37.680] agency
[00:39:39.599] and [clears throat] not something like
[00:39:41.280] like you know the all the other programs
[00:39:44.079] I we mentioned earlier Blue Book and all
[00:39:46.800] the others that were kind of scams and
[00:39:49.760] the Conan report you know they were
[00:39:51.520] scams and so um so this guy Lassie is
[00:39:56.079] legitimate and so he and so Harry said
[00:39:59.680] well okay yeah he said I I I think you
[00:40:02.720] know I know who and how we can do this
[00:40:05.440] and he contacted Ted Stevens and uh
[00:40:08.160] Daniel Anyway and Ted Stevens had
[00:40:11.359] already had his own sighting so he
[00:40:14.320] wasn't difficult to convince yeah
[00:40:15.920] there's a lot to this so he had a
[00:40:17.440] personal sighting experience you if you
[00:40:19.839] will just you know it's something that
[00:40:21.599] was undeniably uh anomalous and um so
[00:40:27.440] Harry got the money and um and so we
[00:40:30.800] went forward And we have we
[00:40:33.353] [clears throat] have [snorts]
[00:40:35.280] uh BASS our organization [snorts]
[00:40:40.320] uh we have 38 papers. We have copies of
[00:40:42.640] everything.
[00:40:43.040] >> The ders
[00:40:44.240] >> we have everything. We have uh we have
[00:40:46.160] all the other papers going up to about
[00:40:48.079] approximately 100. So DIA has has those
[00:40:52.320] someplace. Um
[00:40:54.160] >> but they deny it. They say we don't have
[00:40:55.920] them. Well, I don't know. You know what?
[00:40:57.680] They buried. They could be buried in a
[00:40:59.280] freaking trailer or the back of a car or
[00:41:01.599] somewhere in the trunk and and put into
[00:41:03.440] a cellar. I I don't know where it is,
[00:41:05.680] but we have we have ours. We have copies
[00:41:08.079] of everything. I don't think it's our
[00:41:10.160] business [clears throat] to to
[00:41:14.880] go around the government and and and and
[00:41:17.520] divulge ours uh without sanction of
[00:41:20.560] proof. without approval. I mean, without
[00:41:22.960] approval. Um, I feel uncomfortable about
[00:41:26.240] that. I don't I don't mind the 38
[00:41:28.079] papers. I think I think beyond that, I'm
[00:41:30.240] uncomfortable by not having some kind of
[00:41:33.040] official ask covering approval,
[00:41:35.760] >> you know.
[00:41:36.160] >> Well, I released more than a dozen of
[00:41:37.839] those papers myself with permission from
[00:41:40.079] people who are involved in the program.
[00:41:41.680] And
[00:41:42.079] >> and you're still alive and talking.
[00:41:43.440] >> I'm I'm still around, but the the bulk
[00:41:45.599] of it, as Dr. Dr. Latsky and Colin
[00:41:48.319] Keller have explained and you've
[00:41:50.240] explained there's a lot of really
[00:41:51.760] sensitive stuff in their personal
[00:41:53.680] medical [snorts] information. There's
[00:41:54.960] the identities of of people who work for
[00:41:57.520] the government,
[00:41:58.240] >> people's names and everything are in
[00:41:59.520] there and and in today's world that's
[00:42:01.359] terrible. If it got out and yeah,
[00:42:03.280] they're they're they would have no
[00:42:04.720] privacy.
[00:42:05.440] >> So, if that were ever to be made public,
[00:42:07.359] somebody has to go through and scrub it.
[00:42:08.720] And that's a big job because it's a
[00:42:10.720] gigantic pile of information. Dr. Katsky
[00:42:13.760] explained to me your organization, BASS,
[00:42:16.560] you had 50 full-time investigators. 50,
[00:42:19.599] making it the largest program of its
[00:42:22.160] kind ever funded by the US government.
[00:42:24.240] You had maybe 75 total employees, but
[00:42:26.640] you had 50 people who are out there
[00:42:28.319] taking notes. There are tens of
[00:42:29.760] thousands of pages of notes that went
[00:42:32.079] into 7,500 pages of documents that u
[00:42:36.960] were sent to DIA on a regular basis and
[00:42:40.800] that's never been released. So there are
[00:42:42.720] those who quibble and say, "Well, it
[00:42:44.319] must not exist and it's preposterous and
[00:42:46.720] juvenile to say that kind of thing." It
[00:42:48.480] does exist. You had a regular schedule
[00:42:50.960] of reports that you had to submit,
[00:42:53.359] right?
[00:42:53.680] >> Oh, yeah. Yeah.
[00:42:54.560] >> Oh, for sure. I had to I gave uh Senator
[00:42:58.000] Reid personal briefings all the time. I
[00:43:00.160] had to go to search light where he where
[00:43:02.000] he lived and uh uh he had his security
[00:43:05.599] guards there of course and and uh so I
[00:43:08.160] would give him briefings and uh actually
[00:43:11.359] that's a good segue. Yeah. Okay. I'm
[00:43:13.680] going to do some more promoting of your
[00:43:15.599] of your book. What did I do with my
[00:43:18.000] glasses? Wait a second. Um because he
[00:43:21.920] was concerned, the senator was concerned
[00:43:24.240] after our briefings. We got to a point
[00:43:26.400] to where um um they fall down. Um it's
[00:43:32.720] like car keys, you know, where you need
[00:43:36.720] a chain around your neck for stuff.
[00:43:38.319] >> Believe me, that's my life. Yes.
[00:43:40.319] >> Yeah. So actually this is a good segue
[00:43:42.960] George because um
[00:43:46.319] uh Harry was was in [clears throat] your
[00:43:48.560] book here that's also Lowassy joined in
[00:43:51.920] this
[00:43:53.520] by the end of May 2009. Now the program
[00:43:56.880] initiated in September of 2008. Senator
[00:44:00.079] Majority Leader Harry Reid was a worried
[00:44:02.400] man. A few days previously, he had
[00:44:05.440] received a thorough briefing on the
[00:44:07.520] progress of the new OAP bass effort from
[00:44:12.319] Robert Bigalow and the breadth and scope
[00:44:14.640] of the investigation investigative
[00:44:16.800] horsepower [clears throat and cough]
[00:44:18.720] of the fledgling organization had
[00:44:20.720] astonished the senior politician.
[00:44:23.359] Given what he had just heard from
[00:44:25.599] Bigalow, Reed was concerned that Bass
[00:44:27.760] would go would get too high uh a profile
[00:44:31.839] u from uh at DoD in the near future. So
[00:44:37.520] we would become noticed and that that
[00:44:40.319] essentially was what this is saying and
[00:44:42.720] that the OSAP contract would be exposed
[00:44:45.119] and essentially unprotected from
[00:44:48.160] potential opponents at DoD.
[00:44:52.800] So [clears throat]
[00:44:55.040] Jim wasn't always in sync with a whole
[00:44:58.319] crowd at the Department of Defense by
[00:45:00.800] any means. Um but there was another
[00:45:05.040] reason for worry. Over the years, Ree
[00:45:09.200] had caught various uh straws in the wind
[00:45:12.319] that both Russia and China were involved
[00:45:15.280] with and heavily invested in UAPbased
[00:45:19.040] advanced technology research programs.
[00:45:24.000] Um
[00:45:25.839] by May of 2009, Reed was concerned that
[00:45:29.440] the United States was asleep at the
[00:45:31.280] wheel. Well, why is this important? In
[00:45:34.800] Reed's mind, there was a grave danger
[00:45:37.599] that China and Russia, who were not
[00:45:40.640] similarly handcuffed, would succeed in
[00:45:45.520] taking quantum leaps forward from
[00:45:48.240] exploiting UAPbased hardware and thus
[00:45:52.000] gain an irreversible technological upper
[00:45:54.480] hand over the United States.
[00:45:57.680] That's a real concern.
[00:46:00.000] We talked yesterday the the last time we
[00:46:02.319] we had our podcast, we talked about
[00:46:06.096] [clears throat] the horsepower
[00:46:09.040] that private companies
[00:46:11.920] might be able to have beyond what they
[00:46:14.240] currently have
[00:46:16.319] if they had more money and especially
[00:46:20.720] more ability to hire people as
[00:46:23.680] scientists to help them back engineer.
[00:46:27.760] Um,
[00:46:29.599] China and Russia don't have those
[00:46:30.880] handcuffs obviously. You know, they can
[00:46:33.359] make people disappear if they want to
[00:46:34.800] really easy. But so their governments
[00:46:37.599] are entirely different than ours. And
[00:46:40.400] um, so we are at a disadvantage and
[00:46:43.200] that's what bothered Harry. That's what
[00:46:44.640] concerned him is he became he began to
[00:46:46.720] realize this that this is a really
[00:46:49.200] national it's not just that that UFOs
[00:46:52.560] could cause you know airplane accidents
[00:46:55.200] and those kinds of things. uh and and uh
[00:46:59.119] cause uh airplanes to try to avoid this
[00:47:01.520] and and and and have caused damage that
[00:47:05.119] way. But uh more seriously was that we
[00:47:08.400] are getting behind further and further
[00:47:10.160] every decade.
[00:47:11.040] >> Meaning if the technology were to fall
[00:47:12.800] in the hands of one of our adversaries,
[00:47:14.800] we'd be in trouble. [clears throat]
[00:47:16.960] >> There are Yes. And there are things uh
[00:47:19.760] George um
[00:47:22.240] I'm aware
[00:47:24.560] um
[00:47:27.839] the [clears throat] back engineering
[00:47:29.040] effort is is not easy.
[00:47:35.040] >> Well, we're going to talk about that. Um
[00:47:37.599] >> well, not too much. I don't want to, but
[00:47:40.319] it's not easy.
[00:47:42.640] So it would be a big help,
[00:47:45.599] you know, if there were a a good
[00:47:48.000] coordinated effort
[00:47:51.280] uh of support and um still in devout
[00:47:56.240] secrecy
[00:47:58.240] there has to be, but it's just not easy
[00:48:01.119] because um it some it's the peculiarity
[00:48:06.000] it can be uh
[00:48:08.079] >> well a problem. You know, Reed had
[00:48:09.839] access to a lot of briefings and
[00:48:11.680] information that I would never see.
[00:48:13.280] Maybe it's stuff that you would be able
[00:48:14.640] to see, but his concern about Russia in
[00:48:16.720] particular was wellounded. And, you
[00:48:18.640] know, I I was able to obtain some
[00:48:20.480] documents. You guys, but you guys took
[00:48:22.559] it to a whole different level. And how
[00:48:24.720] you ever get out of there?
[00:48:25.680] >> Yeah. It's a it's a long story, but you
[00:48:27.680] you your organization, BAS, took it to a
[00:48:30.160] whole different level, way beyond what I
[00:48:32.079] could do, and made sense of it. And you
[00:48:34.319] recognize the Russians really did have a
[00:48:36.400] big program. they were trying to to
[00:48:38.480] reverse engineer this stuff.
[00:48:39.760] >> And that's 30 that's uh that's uh
[00:48:41.760] >> 1993. Yeah.
[00:48:42.880] >> Yeah. So 30 over 30 years ago.
[00:48:45.280] >> Um and and you you made reference in our
[00:48:48.079] first conversation about a crash which
[00:48:50.720] the Russians uh something crashed. The
[00:48:53.200] Russians retrieved it. They started
[00:48:54.880] working on it. They developed a powerful
[00:48:56.800] laser. This is you can't say it but I
[00:48:59.119] can because it's come out from people
[00:49:00.880] who who we all know. The crash occurred
[00:49:03.599] in Kazakhstan. And what they developed
[00:49:05.680] was an incredibly powerful laser, a
[00:49:08.079] weapon that
[00:49:09.440] >> and and initially they had problems with
[00:49:11.440] it. It caused a lot of damage, might
[00:49:13.280] have killed people, but somebody
[00:49:15.040] involved with direct knowledge of that
[00:49:17.200] came forward, told it to our
[00:49:18.960] intelligence agencies and you learned
[00:49:20.720] about it, right?
[00:49:21.440] >> Yeah. Very senior guy in their program.
[00:49:25.440] >> Huge, huge, very, very senior.
[00:49:27.839] >> So that would be one reason for Reed's
[00:49:30.000] concern. And he became concerned. Look,
[00:49:32.720] we got to keep Bass the OSAP program. We
[00:49:35.760] got to keep it quiet because he knew
[00:49:37.920] that somebody would try to the long
[00:49:39.599] knives would be out and try to try to
[00:49:41.680] cut it if they knew it existed. Jim
[00:49:44.160] Latsky in his is brilliant in many ways,
[00:49:47.520] a rocket scientist for DIA, but his
[00:49:50.160] brilliance uh in writing up the program
[00:49:52.559] that became OAF was you don't mention
[00:49:54.880] UFOs. You're not going to mention
[00:49:56.800] werewolves or or the ranch or or alien
[00:50:00.880] technology. None of that stuff was
[00:50:02.800] written in the proposal in the contracts
[00:50:04.640] that you signed. Right.
[00:50:05.680] >> Right. Right.
[00:50:07.040] >> What was the purpose? What was the
[00:50:08.720] unspoken purpose?
[00:50:09.680] >> We we had the parochial stuff, the usual
[00:50:13.200] stuff, you know, lift, propulsion,
[00:50:16.240] cloaking, you know, not the real
[00:50:19.440] interesting tricky stuff,
[00:50:21.680] >> but everybody involved knew what it was
[00:50:23.599] about.
[00:50:24.240] >> Yeah.
[00:50:24.559] >> You knew what the purpose was. And we
[00:50:26.000] had permission to go wherever wherever
[00:50:28.480] the evidence wherever we could have
[00:50:30.880] reliable evidence and and and anything
[00:50:34.079] was anomalous, we had per permission to
[00:50:36.079] chase it.
[00:50:37.119] >> Jim Latsky and now J Stratton, a name we
[00:50:39.760] haven't mentioned, but but it's now
[00:50:41.839] public now. They worked together at DIA
[00:50:44.319] and they both explained both in their
[00:50:46.400] own areas were seeing UFO reports that
[00:50:48.880] were startling. They kept seeing them
[00:50:50.240] over and over and they thought we need
[00:50:52.240] to do something about it. And then they
[00:50:53.839] read Hunt for the Skinwalker and they
[00:50:55.920] thought Skinwalker Ranch is a place you
[00:50:58.000] could study where [clears throat] you
[00:50:59.839] have a reasonable chance of seeing UFOs
[00:51:02.559] and they came to you and pitched this
[00:51:04.160] idea. So
[00:51:05.520] >> the letter comes in from Latsky to you.
[00:51:07.760] Yeah.
[00:51:08.000] >> And you guys go there, right? Let's take
[00:51:10.160] let's take a trip.
[00:51:11.119] >> Yeah. And we didn't create the uh the uh
[00:51:14.800] Aerospace Advanced Weapons Application
[00:51:18.000] Program, OAP.
[00:51:21.119] That wasn't our acronym or our name, but
[00:51:23.839] you notice the word weapons are in
[00:51:25.839] there. Um, and because it was a do uh
[00:51:30.000] Department of War, DO uh
[00:51:32.960] >> war
[00:51:33.680] >> uh program
[00:51:36.240] and because of that, that's where the
[00:51:39.280] money could be sequestered. If it had
[00:51:41.760] gone someplace else, it would have been
[00:51:43.839] lost. So, it had to go to DOW.
[00:51:47.440] Um
[00:51:48.960] and so that's that's how OAP became the
[00:51:51.520] program ATIP was was nothing by by
[00:51:54.559] comparison.
[00:51:55.200] >> OAP the the largest government funded
[00:51:57.680] investigation into these phenomena that
[00:51:59.599] we know of that ever existed. So your
[00:52:01.920] your goals follow the evidence where it
[00:52:04.480] leads but UFO was the primary focus.
[00:52:07.359] That that's that's where it starts.
[00:52:10.160] >> Um and you
[00:52:11.760] >> but we had permission.
[00:52:14.480] Everything else was fair game.
[00:52:17.359] because it was connected too and Laskkey
[00:52:20.000] knew that it was connected. So if you
[00:52:22.559] have uh something a circle open up the
[00:52:25.920] the size of a large pipe and something
[00:52:27.680] crawls out of that and but your naked
[00:52:30.720] eye can't see it but somebody on on
[00:52:32.559] night vision goggles can see it. Uh
[00:52:35.680] that's certainly anomalous in an area
[00:52:38.160] where UFOs are abundant in the whole
[00:52:40.400] Uenta basin. you know, not just that
[00:52:42.800] ranch, but other sister ranches uh
[00:52:45.040] contiguous to the ranch and others. And
[00:52:49.040] uh we had tremendous cooperation with
[00:52:52.400] the sheriff's department and the BIA. Um
[00:52:55.839] the Bureau of Indian Affairs was those
[00:52:58.079] guys were great. The sheriff's
[00:52:59.359] department were great and they had they
[00:53:01.359] had more encounters and stuff than you
[00:53:03.119] can shake a stick
[00:53:03.839] >> going way back. Oh, we I mean I don't I
[00:53:08.576] [clears throat] their their what they
[00:53:09.839] chased with their cars and and um and
[00:53:14.160] the experiences they had. Yeah, it was
[00:53:17.680] their information was great. So So we we
[00:53:19.920] we interviewed a lot of people in the
[00:53:22.400] whole area and and we were getting
[00:53:24.559] information not just on the ranch. No,
[00:53:27.280] we were we we had so much we could we
[00:53:29.839] could cover a lot of area.
[00:53:31.280] >> Dr. Latsky comes to Las Vegas. You jump
[00:53:34.240] on your plane, you fly to northeastern
[00:53:36.800] Utah, and you took him on a little tour.
[00:53:38.640] Yeah.
[00:53:38.960] >> And he had an experience right off the
[00:53:41.119] bat. Looking back, does it seem like to
[00:53:43.440] you that it was the design for him to
[00:53:45.680] make an impression?
[00:53:46.720] >> Well, [clears throat]
[00:53:48.240] yeah, because of what what happened once
[00:53:50.240] we got there within 45 minutes of
[00:53:52.079] getting actually arriving on the
[00:53:53.760] property. Yeah. There was a custom
[00:53:56.079] exhibition for him. But [clears throat]
[00:53:58.400] before that, we're in in my plane and
[00:54:00.400] and he's looking out the window and
[00:54:01.920] we're coming close, you know, to to
[00:54:04.000] Vernal where the airport is. And we
[00:54:06.319] still have to get in a car and drive
[00:54:08.319] about, you know, 30 minutes to the
[00:54:09.920] ranch. But he's looking down and he
[00:54:11.520] said, "Oh, well, there's there's the
[00:54:12.960] ranch." So he had had aerial photographs
[00:54:15.599] to where he knew it visually.
[00:54:18.079] >> Yeah. Because he he spotted the, you
[00:54:20.400] know, the u the mesa and and the
[00:54:23.760] topography and everything. And so he
[00:54:25.520] could see it. we're that low cuz we're
[00:54:27.119] on approach. And he said, "Oh, there's
[00:54:29.280] the R." I said, "Yeah, by golly, yep,
[00:54:31.200] you're right. That's it." And so, um,
[00:54:34.382] [clears throat] I was going to mention
[00:54:35.599] something else, too. I I'll save it for
[00:54:37.359] later. Um,
[00:54:39.599] so [clears throat] we get in our car and
[00:54:40.720] we drive there. We we get to the ranch.
[00:54:43.119] We go through the gates and everything
[00:54:44.559] and and our security guards are are all
[00:54:46.960] around and and um
[00:54:50.319] so we [clears throat] go into the old to
[00:54:52.240] the new homestead. is still an old
[00:54:54.160] building, but the new homestead and
[00:54:56.559] where Jim uh where uh Jean Deetsz and
[00:54:59.760] Richard live. They're the managers and
[00:55:03.599] um and um she was a spunky gal.
[00:55:08.880] >> Yes.
[00:55:09.440] >> Uh and a lot of stuff happened all the
[00:55:11.440] time in her house because that's where
[00:55:13.200] Sherman lived. Terry Sherman lived and
[00:55:15.359] his wife lived there too and their two
[00:55:17.119] kids.
[00:55:18.720] and why there were peculiar locks on the
[00:55:20.559] doors and things, right? That so um but
[00:55:25.680] uh so we're sitting actually and the
[00:55:27.839] story is is this. We we were in the the
[00:55:32.240] dining area of the living room. We
[00:55:35.280] weren't in the kitchen. We were
[00:55:36.608] [clears throat] in the dining area of
[00:55:37.599] the living room around a rectangular
[00:55:39.599] table and there were four of us and Jim
[00:55:44.079] was the only one looking into the
[00:55:45.440] kitchen. The rest of us weren't, but we
[00:55:47.680] we weren't facing in the kitchen at all.
[00:55:51.040] And
[00:55:53.920] we had [clears throat] been on the ranch
[00:55:55.680] about 45 minutes alto together
[00:55:58.640] uh when we had started that meeting. So
[00:56:02.160] what Jim was exposed to and saw was
[00:56:05.359] happened
[00:56:07.119] as as it was though it was customized
[00:56:08.960] for him and which it obviously was. He
[00:56:11.200] was the only one that saw it. And what
[00:56:13.280] he saw floating above the floor about
[00:56:17.680] sink countertop high
[00:56:20.240] was a metal looking object that was
[00:56:22.720] tubular like in the music album Tubular
[00:56:27.280] Bells,
[00:56:27.680] >> right? Michaelfield. Yeah.
[00:56:29.040] >> Yeah. And that's Exorcist.
[00:56:30.160] >> And that's what it looked like.
[00:56:32.000] >> And Laskkey was very slow in talking to
[00:56:37.520] me about anything. But on the flight
[00:56:39.680] back and he said, "Did you on the
[00:56:42.480] flight?" He said, "Did you say
[00:56:43.599] anything?" I said, "No."
[00:56:45.359] >> So he doesn't say anything at the ranch.
[00:56:46.960] It's not until you're on your way back.
[00:56:48.720] >> We're on our way back. And he's saying,
[00:56:49.680] "Did you say anything?" And I said,
[00:56:51.680] "Well, no. Where? When?" He said, "When
[00:56:55.440] when we were in the house, when we were
[00:56:57.359] when we were having our meeting." I
[00:56:59.200] said, "No."
[00:57:00.960] So over a period of time he loosened up
[00:57:04.079] more and more and more and finally
[00:57:06.400] divulged everything about what he saw
[00:57:09.280] and described it in in detail as much as
[00:57:13.359] he could. And it was there for a
[00:57:15.920] significant it wasn't like two or three
[00:57:17.599] seconds. It was there for a significant
[00:57:19.920] period of time.
[00:57:21.920] Um, [clears throat] a lot of times you
[00:57:23.440] see something that come and goes very
[00:57:25.920] fast and uh or or you see evidence that
[00:57:30.079] can linger
[00:57:32.000] for a very long time if you don't
[00:57:33.440] disturb it. If you don't if you don't
[00:57:36.079] change if you don't change what has been
[00:57:37.680] changed, you know, uh that could be
[00:57:39.839] there for weeks or months, right? So, it
[00:57:42.319] depends on what the exhibition
[00:57:44.000] demonstration the nature of the
[00:57:45.680] demonstration is. um
[00:57:49.119] or something dissolves and you know well
[00:57:50.799] then that's going to be a matter of
[00:57:52.000] seconds or minutes or whatever. So this
[00:57:54.480] had been there so it really sunk into
[00:57:56.400] him and it was customized and uh so he
[00:58:00.480] was off and running with was with with
[00:58:02.480] the he was an experiencer right off the
[00:58:05.040] bat as a government employee
[00:58:08.319] in addition to all the other people all
[00:58:10.079] the other government people that showed
[00:58:12.079] up. And um so [clears throat] Jim was
[00:58:15.760] the first one.
[00:58:18.319] >> That's amazing. I mean looking back at
[00:58:20.240] it, it seemed like it did whatever is
[00:58:22.240] there designed it for him to make an
[00:58:24.240] impression and he goes back to DC. He
[00:58:26.640] designs the outline of a program. He
[00:58:29.119] >> tells it to you. You call Reed and then
[00:58:31.760] OAP is born.
[00:58:33.200] >> OAP was born. Um, you know, it's
[00:58:35.359] interesting that the contract uh that
[00:58:37.119] you signed, the documents that have been
[00:58:38.799] out there, they don't say UFOs, UAPs,
[00:58:42.480] poltergeists, unconventional technology
[00:58:45.119] there, it's very vague on purpose. And
[00:58:47.760] it leads back to the comments that Harry
[00:58:49.760] Reid made. You didn't want anyone else
[00:58:52.799] in DC to know about it. We're talking
[00:58:54.799] about adversaries, not just Moscow or or
[00:58:57.440] Beijing. Adversaries within government
[00:59:00.480] who would try to kill it if they knew it
[00:59:02.319] existed.
[00:59:03.440] >> Yeah. for a variety of different
[00:59:04.960] reasons, they would kill it.
[00:59:06.319] >> And that's what happened. That's what
[00:59:07.599] That's what happened.
[00:59:08.079] >> It is what happened. It is what
[00:59:10.000] happened. It lasted for 27 months. It
[00:59:12.559] was a two-year program and uh it was
[00:59:15.200] killed, I think, in December of uh 2010.
[00:59:22.559] People forget that you announced it on
[00:59:24.799] the air with me in a week after you
[00:59:27.200] signed the contract. You went on coast
[00:59:28.640] to coast with me and said, "Hey, we've
[00:59:30.480] got a a new uh initiative." Uh you said
[00:59:33.680] we have a partner. You didn't say it was
[00:59:35.280] a government partner. Didn't say it was
[00:59:36.720] DIA. We've got a partner and we're
[00:59:38.799] launching this new initiative and we're
[00:59:40.240] going to start investigating UFOs uh at
[00:59:42.960] a different level. At the time I there
[00:59:45.359] were the breadcrumbs right there if
[00:59:46.720] anybody was paying attention.
[00:59:48.079] >> We were excited about it. We were
[00:59:49.760] honored to be able to do something uh
[00:59:53.520] for the government and that we we
[00:59:55.359] thought was important and helpful.
[00:59:58.079] >> Yeah. Let's talk about something else
[00:59:59.839] that I think will be incredibly
[01:00:02.079] newsworthy. As part of the agreement
[01:00:04.240] that you signed with DIA, there were
[01:00:06.079] provisions that you would modify the
[01:00:09.760] Bigalow Aerospace plant uh in
[01:00:12.480] anticipation of receiving some
[01:00:13.920] materials.
[01:00:15.680] It doesn't say what those materials are,
[01:00:18.240] but you allowed me to talk about it
[01:00:20.880] before Congress. Can we go into that?
[01:00:24.720] Well, go ahead.
[01:00:27.119] You sound so enthused. Uh [laughter]
[01:00:30.720] um
[01:00:33.040] materials meaning from somewhere else,
[01:00:35.119] right?
[01:00:37.200] Or you didn't know where they're from.
[01:00:40.960] Well, let me [clears throat] just shift
[01:00:43.920] a little bit to um the chair here. Um,
[01:00:49.599] so [clears throat] I I I uh he didn't
[01:00:53.040] even mention it to Lacassy or to
[01:00:55.200] anybody. I had my own approach to
[01:00:59.119] becoming SAP, to being an unagnowledged
[01:01:01.680] special access program.
[01:01:04.160] Um, that that's at a very high level.
[01:01:07.760] And the only way that that happens is if
[01:01:10.480] you have a need to know that is so
[01:01:12.880] serious that it behooves people in the
[01:01:16.720] know to embrace you to give you
[01:01:20.240] information only as it applies to your
[01:01:24.400] situation.
[01:01:26.559] And um so um
[01:01:30.079] Matt's giving us a a message here. So I
[01:01:33.280] got to
[01:01:33.839] >> Well, we can keep going. We'll just cut
[01:01:36.160] it in half. Well, we can also start this
[01:01:38.480] in then in the next show too.
[01:01:40.640] >> Okay. Um so and I and let me just
[01:01:43.920] conclude this part of our our podcast
[01:01:47.760] with this that [clears throat]
[01:01:51.280] my approach my personal approach was I
[01:01:53.440] could offer something to uh aerospace
[01:01:56.960] companies um that had hardware and and
[01:02:02.480] different materials different things and
[01:02:05.359] um I could I there was something that
[01:02:08.000] they didn't have none of them had that I
[01:02:10.922] [clears throat] could create
[01:02:12.960] that gave me a reason to have a need to
[01:02:15.280] know because I needed to know um in
[01:02:19.599] order to pro in order to provide them
[01:02:22.319] with what I could provide them with, I
[01:02:24.880] needed to have enough information as to
[01:02:27.359] what I was having to accommodate
[01:02:30.960] um in order for them to have the best
[01:02:36.640] the best new advantage. age that they
[01:02:41.520] currently had none whatsoever in being
[01:02:44.559] able to do do something.
[01:02:46.559] >> We will get into the details if you're
[01:02:48.480] willing to go that far. Just the
[01:02:50.319] contract you signed with DIA for OAP
[01:02:53.119] that Bass would signed with DIA
[01:02:56.319] provided for you making some
[01:02:58.000] modifications to the Bigalow Aerospace
[01:03:00.160] plant. And what you had told me back in
[01:03:01.920] those days was you spent a lot of your
[01:03:03.520] own money to make that happen. It did
[01:03:05.520] happen, right? You did prepare for some
[01:03:08.640] eventualities.
[01:03:12.240] >> I don't want to talk about it.
[01:03:13.599] >> Okay. All right. I mean, we can cut that
[01:03:15.839] out, too, if you want, but um it's it
[01:03:19.039] was in the New York Times story. Bigalow
[01:03:22.000] Aerospace made some changes to its
[01:03:24.880] aerospace plant.
[01:03:26.240] >> Well, we were always we were always
[01:03:28.720] building and expanding that whole
[01:03:30.559] facility all the time. and and you know
[01:03:32.799] we have we have a 12story uh bay
[01:03:37.119] 120 ft. We have 106 foot hook height. Um
[01:03:41.920] we have um a future we have a mockup of
[01:03:46.000] a future expandable spacecraft that is
[01:03:49.280] over 2,000 cubic meters. The
[01:03:51.680] International Space Station has only 935
[01:03:54.319] cubic meters. And that includes the
[01:03:56.640] American side, the Russian side, the
[01:03:59.039] European module, the Japanese module.
[01:04:01.839] Um, and that's and we only have the
[01:04:04.079] Americans only have about 450 cubic
[01:04:06.160] meters of that 935.
[01:04:08.960] That's that's the only thing that we
[01:04:10.720] actually own that we have on the
[01:04:12.880] American side. And our first three
[01:04:15.280] modules were created by Russia because
[01:04:16.960] we didn't have any experience. I'm
[01:04:18.720] talking speaking on behalf of NASA. We
[01:04:20.799] didn't have any experience with
[01:04:21.920] habitable systems. They did with air,
[01:04:25.200] you know, they they had Almas, they had
[01:04:28.640] spacecraft before we did and uh they had
[01:04:31.839] propulsion systems stronger than we had
[01:04:34.079] initially u before uh we went to the
[01:04:37.920] moon in the in the late 50s early 60s.
[01:04:40.799] They could throw more mass than we
[01:04:42.400] could. So that was a from a nuclear bomb
[01:04:45.680] deliveries perspective that was of a
[01:04:47.680] huge concern.
[01:04:49.520] So we were in a race more than just
[01:04:51.520] going to the moon. We were in a race to
[01:04:53.599] have delivery power that equal or
[01:04:55.520] surpassed theirs. Um
[01:04:59.200] and uh I'm just thinking of um so
[01:05:06.400] um we were always we were always
[01:05:08.240] expanding things and uh and we so we
[01:05:11.119] built very large mockups and and we
[01:05:13.119] could do systems. Our our our small um
[01:05:16.559] craft expandable system was 330 cubic
[01:05:19.359] meters. you know, 75% of the entire
[01:05:22.319] space that that the Americans already
[01:05:24.640] have on the ISS and three times the size
[01:05:27.200] of an average module. Average metallic
[01:05:29.520] system on the ISS is about 105, 110
[01:05:32.640] cubic meters. Our B330 is 330, 330. But
[01:05:36.400] we could do one, if we wanted to do one
[01:05:38.640] of 600, we could do a 600 cubic meter
[01:05:41.119] and have tremendous margins of safety.
[01:05:44.079] And so we were did a mockup of 2,000
[01:05:47.280] cubic meters. And so we were we were
[01:05:49.599] doing things bigger and larger so you
[01:05:52.160] can accommodate bigger and more massive
[01:05:54.880] stuff
[01:05:55.359] >> for simple reasons. There are no labs to
[01:05:57.839] speak of. There are no manufacturing
[01:05:59.680] facilities in space if we had them.
[01:06:02.079] There are things you could do in the in
[01:06:04.079] zero gravity that you can't do on Earth.
[01:06:06.240] Right
[01:06:06.559] >> now there's an idea.
[01:06:07.839] >> Yeah. I mean, and the big aerospace was
[01:06:10.480] building these inflatable
[01:06:12.559] uh habitats that were so much stronger
[01:06:15.920] than metal frames and much more uh
[01:06:20.319] transportable, cheaper to get them up
[01:06:22.000] there, cheaper to use, but they were
[01:06:24.000] safer and and no one had it. So, so much
[01:06:26.880] so far less expensive. It's is it's
[01:06:29.039] unbelievable the difference that the
[01:06:31.119] Delta and cost. I mean, we spent hundred
[01:06:33.440] billion dollars to build the ISS as it
[01:06:36.319] currently exists. 100 billion back in in
[01:06:38.720] dollars in $2,000
[01:06:41.039] values, you know, 26 years ago. And
[01:06:44.061] [clears throat] uh we we could we can
[01:06:46.720] build uh an an order of of that. We
[01:06:49.680] could we could do uh we can have a
[01:06:51.920] system that would be uh one 12th of that
[01:06:55.920] cost and be larger.
[01:06:58.480] the technology you developed, the
[01:07:00.160] systems you developed, you have all
[01:07:01.839] kind, you have dozens of patents in your
[01:07:03.680] name that were part of this are still
[01:07:05.760] even though Biglo Aerospace has been
[01:07:07.760] inactive for many years, those systems
[01:07:10.559] you develop are still more advanced than
[01:07:12.319] what has been developed in in your
[01:07:13.920] absence. Yeah, I I am a kind of a
[01:07:16.160] homegrown engineer guy and I have 29
[01:07:18.880] patents to my name and and it's it's
[01:07:21.200] kind of fun to try to tinker with stuff
[01:07:23.520] and solve different kind of problems,
[01:07:25.839] you know, and and so we we uh we moved
[01:07:30.400] very quickly, you know, [clears throat]
[01:07:32.000] we flew we built I built the company
[01:07:35.119] starting in the bought the land in 2000
[01:07:37.839] and built our first building in 2001.
[01:07:40.400] And then we added on, added on, added
[01:07:42.000] on. Uh built the last one in 2012. We
[01:07:45.599] have uh 375,000 square ft of space, but
[01:07:49.440] we have a huge amount of cubic volume.
[01:07:51.839] And um we we uh launched our first
[01:07:55.359] spacecraft in 2006, our second one in
[01:07:58.240] 2007, and then beam, which is attached
[01:08:00.720] right now this minute, to the ISS in
[01:08:03.119] 2016. And so that gave us a TRL techn
[01:08:07.359] technical readiness level of nine which
[01:08:09.680] is the highest you can get because we
[01:08:11.599] have people we have a photograph of six
[01:08:13.680] astronauts inside the beam. It's small.
[01:08:16.560] >> Yeah.
[01:08:16.960] >> You know it's it was cramped but we have
[01:08:18.960] a we have that photograph. So that give
[01:08:20.560] us the highest proficiency of any any
[01:08:24.000] aerospace or any company with expandable
[01:08:26.319] systems. And they're more they're safer
[01:08:28.880] and more durable and bulletproof than
[01:08:31.839] metallic systems are.
[01:08:34.080] again
[01:08:35.120] >> without a radiation contamination
[01:08:36.719] component which is huge background
[01:08:38.560] galactic radiation is a serious problem
[01:08:41.040] huge once you get out of our
[01:08:42.719] magnetosphere and ditto for Mars Mars
[01:08:45.120] only has 1% of the atmosphere of Earth
[01:08:47.040] there's no magnetosphere on Mars so
[01:08:49.279] you're walking around there you you
[01:08:51.199] you're getting cancer potential you know
[01:08:53.679] in a short time
[01:08:54.719] >> you created the possibility of having
[01:08:56.880] places to go up there that that there
[01:08:59.120] are habitats there are labs there's
[01:09:01.120] manufacturing capacity
[01:09:02.400] >> aerospace is destination company,
[01:09:04.159] >> right?
[01:09:04.480] >> Yeah.
[01:09:05.279] >> So, somebody else can work on how to get
[01:09:07.120] there. You gave them someplace to go and
[01:09:10.000] um
[01:09:10.400] >> Yeah.
[01:09:10.880] >> That would be incredibly attractive to a
[01:09:13.839] big company that wants to have a
[01:09:15.520] presence in space or a government,
[01:09:17.279] right?
[01:09:17.679] >> Yeah.
[01:09:18.080] >> So, you had a carrot to offer.
[01:09:19.839] >> Sure. Especially if you want to use
[01:09:21.520] these systems for things that have never
[01:09:24.080] been used before. You know, new there's
[01:09:26.799] a variety of different kinds of things
[01:09:28.640] that you can do and volume really
[01:09:30.719] matters. I I'm leading up to that is
[01:09:33.279] that let's say you're in negotiations.
[01:09:35.040] There's something you want that's
[01:09:36.560] stashed away somewhere. You had
[01:09:38.480] something to offer in return.
[01:09:41.600] >> Well, that's just speculation. I don't I
[01:09:43.679] don't know.
[01:09:44.960] >> Um
[01:09:46.799] >> do you want to leave it at that?
[01:09:48.000] >> Yeah, we can leave it at that. But we're
[01:09:49.520] coming back to it. Uh because I mean
[01:09:51.359] it's an important thing.
[01:09:52.703] [clears throat and cough] You're talking
[01:09:53.440] about the gatekeepers. Our first
[01:09:55.120] conversation was about the gatekeepers.
[01:09:57.280] Companies that have given their all.
[01:09:59.280] They've they've kept the secret. They
[01:10:00.960] did what our government asked them to do
[01:10:02.960] for 80 years and and they've done their
[01:10:05.840] best to try to figure out the
[01:10:07.120] technology, reverse engineer it. Um, and
[01:10:10.159] you think that they should be given a
[01:10:12.800] clean bill of health uh in return for
[01:10:15.199] the work that they've done on the behalf
[01:10:16.800] of the American public, right? You want
[01:10:18.480] to free them up. Yeah. It's not it's not
[01:10:21.360] just that you want to, you know,
[01:10:23.488] [clears throat] you you you it's not a
[01:10:25.199] matter of you giving them something.
[01:10:28.073] >> [clears throat]
[01:10:28.080] >> is that they they haven't asked for
[01:10:30.640] anything. Um, you should do you should
[01:10:34.640] cause no harm.
[01:10:36.719] Uh, you should free them up and um and
[01:10:41.760] you should be lucky to have the
[01:10:43.440] cooperation and and all of the the
[01:10:46.413] [clears throat] information that they
[01:10:47.440] bring to the table.
[01:10:49.440] Yeah. Well, in future episodes, we have
[01:10:52.320] so much ground still to cover. I want to
[01:10:53.920] go into more detail about what what OAP
[01:10:56.159] did, what what you guys found out, the
[01:10:58.159] kinds of of uh products that you
[01:11:00.640] produced, meaning reports and things
[01:11:02.640] that what you learned, how it relates to
[01:11:04.880] consciousness, where consciousness
[01:11:06.960] research is going to go. We're going to
[01:11:08.719] take a dive into Skidwalker Ranch.
[01:11:11.199] People asked about your bowling ball
[01:11:13.199] after they first saw the first episode.
[01:11:15.760] So, we'll talk about that. We'll go
[01:11:17.360] anywhere you want to go and have as many
[01:11:19.280] conversations as you want. And I think
[01:11:21.440] it's going to be fun.
[01:11:22.400] >> Okay. Sounds good to me,
[01:11:23.679] >> right?
[01:11:24.080] >> All right. I just want to thank the
[01:11:25.760] audience for taking the time to watch us
[01:11:28.880] and and listen to what we have to say. I
[01:11:31.199] want to thank George Knap for being a
[01:11:33.600] terrific host. And we would appreciate
[01:11:36.159] any serious questions that you have that
[01:11:39.280] we may want to talk about. If you have
[01:11:41.600] questions, we would like to ask you to
[01:11:43.280] actually drop us a note. If you would
[01:11:45.280] mail these to the following address,
[01:11:47.920] 4640 Southeastern Avenue, Las Vegas,
[01:11:50.880] Nevada 89 119 Bigalow Podcast. Thank
[01:11:55.600] you.
[01:11:59.119] [music]
[01:12:05.669] [music]

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