Robert Bigelow — interview with George Knapp (Mystery Wire), Feb 5, 2021 — Part 1 of 2

• YouTube: https://youtu.be/Gn3o7uC8yq4
• Extraction: youtube_transcript.py (timestamps), 2026-05-28
• Part 2: bigelow-knapp-mysterywire-pt2-2021-02-05 (AAWSAP origin, the "machinery exists" / never-possessed-it claim, BICS consciousness contest)
• Significance: Bigelow in his own words, post-60-Minutes. Primary for ../../sources/bigelow-aerospace-enabler.

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[00:00:00.680] mysterywire.com home of the unusual
[00:00:03.280] and unknown from area 51 to the
[00:00:05.680] paranormal
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[00:00:10.320] the world
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[00:00:13.880] mysterywire.com
[00:00:15.360] start this way you know that the public
[00:00:18.160] mostly knows you for your interest in
[00:00:20.080] ufos but you've actually
[00:00:22.240] most of your adult life been interested
[00:00:24.080] in the two big questions
[00:00:26.240] are we alone yeah and what happens after
[00:00:29.840] we die
[00:00:30.480] right um those are the two holy grails
[00:00:33.120] those are the biggest questions there
[00:00:34.480] are
[00:00:35.440] yeah your interest in consciousness
[00:00:37.120] survival of consciousness after death
[00:00:38.879] though
[00:00:39.360] actually precedes you jumping into the
[00:00:41.280] deep end of the pool and ufos doesn't it
[00:00:45.840] uh well if you don't count things that
[00:00:49.200] happened to my family
[00:00:50.239] right you know when i was a little kid
[00:00:53.840] i think the uh this the uh are we alone
[00:00:57.440] came first when i was a kid because of
[00:01:00.640] events that happened to
[00:01:02.320] my grandparents to my mother and my
[00:01:04.960] grandparents
[00:01:05.840] and then maybe even to me when i was a
[00:01:08.080] kid
[00:01:09.840] and then i committed when i was about 12
[00:01:12.400] years old
[00:01:13.600] to really get into this someday when i
[00:01:16.000] grew up and i
[00:01:16.799] if i had money and trying to figure a
[00:01:18.640] way how to make money
[00:01:19.920] in order to commune with other people
[00:01:22.799] maybe create
[00:01:24.240] some kind of groups or whatever to help
[00:01:26.159] me uh
[00:01:27.280] explore and so it was very uh
[00:01:31.520] pre-engineered that i had i had done the
[00:01:33.759] engineering on
[00:01:34.880] on on the uh effort to try to go
[00:01:37.920] do these kinds of things you know while
[00:01:39.759] trying to make a living and support a
[00:01:41.200] family and all that
[00:01:42.720] so the ufo experience yeah
[00:01:46.799] i know there's a little bit of
[00:01:47.920] information about that has come out
[00:01:49.360] about your grandparents
[00:01:50.479] right can you tell us your involvement
[00:01:52.799] though why you think it involved you as
[00:01:54.399] well
[00:01:56.320] well um i was probably 10 years old
[00:02:00.240] when my mother was telling me the story
[00:02:02.399] of of
[00:02:04.079] my grandparents incident and their
[00:02:06.240] encounter
[00:02:08.319] and that was back in 1947 about may of
[00:02:10.720] 1947 when
[00:02:12.319] when they had their encounter and i was
[00:02:15.200] about three years old at the time and i
[00:02:16.640] wasn't with them
[00:02:17.840] and that night was a night that they
[00:02:21.440] didn't want to talk about especially my
[00:02:23.120] grandfather my grandmother would barely
[00:02:25.440] talk about it
[00:02:26.400] but all the information really i got was
[00:02:28.000] from my mom and
[00:02:30.959] so that was a super close encounter that
[00:02:33.519] they had
[00:02:36.000] was it just a sighting or is there
[00:02:37.760] something else to it i
[00:02:39.120] don't know you know i've i've done a lot
[00:02:41.040] of research in the et ufo
[00:02:43.440] area and if i were looking at this
[00:02:46.959] objectively
[00:02:47.840] as a as a third third-party situation i
[00:02:50.480] would say
[00:02:51.840] they were good candidates for being
[00:02:53.440] abducted that night
[00:02:54.879] um apparently they were on the side of
[00:02:57.120] the road for a long time
[00:02:58.560] in order for my grandfather to recoup
[00:03:01.840] himself they thought they were they were
[00:03:03.519] going to die and
[00:03:05.440] because of the ufo coming in to fill up
[00:03:08.400] the entire windshield
[00:03:09.440] of the car and so it came into their
[00:03:11.840] view so dramatically
[00:03:13.680] and they expected that a crash was going
[00:03:15.840] to happen
[00:03:16.720] and then it just shot off and um
[00:03:20.560] so you know i kind of think that
[00:03:24.799] they got home a lot later than they ever
[00:03:26.400] expected to get home back
[00:03:27.920] down from this this mountain highway and
[00:03:31.360] so i think that's possible you know they
[00:03:33.519] that may have had an
[00:03:34.799] encounter 1947 is a pretty momentous
[00:03:37.519] year
[00:03:38.319] it was it was about two months before
[00:03:40.400] roswell
[00:03:41.360] yeah yeah and i think ken arnold was in
[00:03:44.400] there about the same
[00:03:45.599] time frame so whatever their experience
[00:03:47.280] was they didn't want to talk about it
[00:03:48.560] that was
[00:03:49.120] something that bothered them for a long
[00:03:50.400] time no they didn't especially my
[00:03:52.080] grandfather he didn't want to talk about
[00:03:53.760] it and
[00:03:54.319] and because i tried a couple of times
[00:03:56.640] and my grandmother would just
[00:03:58.080] barely say anything about it so
[00:04:01.680] and it shook them up and stayed with
[00:04:03.200] them the rest of their lives but
[00:04:04.879] your mom got enough information out of
[00:04:06.560] the piece this story together
[00:04:08.080] yeah yeah and i think
[00:04:11.840] my father talked to my grandfather about
[00:04:14.640] it because my father began to be
[00:04:16.160] interested
[00:04:17.040] in it in the topic and and by books on
[00:04:19.840] it well there weren't many
[00:04:21.280] of decent books just maybe you know he
[00:04:24.080] had maybe three or four
[00:04:25.680] and and so he wasn't caught up in just
[00:04:28.880] the interest
[00:04:30.000] as a family member hearing about this
[00:04:34.320] you know from from his in-laws and uh
[00:04:39.040] but he never it was my mother that told
[00:04:40.960] me the story not my dad
[00:04:42.400] about what happened to the in-laws you
[00:04:44.000] had other experiences as a young
[00:04:45.520] youngster that sort of clued you in that
[00:04:48.479] something was going on
[00:04:49.520] you've shared those with me privately i
[00:04:51.040] don't know if you want to talk about
[00:04:52.000] them publicly or not
[00:04:53.199] well it's just that i had i had a uh
[00:04:56.560] a series of repeated dreams that didn't
[00:04:58.560] make any sense
[00:04:59.759] uh when i was probably uh seven eight
[00:05:02.560] years old or so
[00:05:04.000] and um it was always the same stupid
[00:05:06.560] dreams
[00:05:07.360] same thing and had no point to them and
[00:05:09.759] i couldn't connect the dream to anything
[00:05:11.440] i couldn't connect it to
[00:05:12.560] comic books um and uh we didn't have
[00:05:15.600] television
[00:05:16.560] and when i was seven or eight years old
[00:05:18.080] you know that would have been around 50
[00:05:20.000] 52 um and i would have been eight
[00:05:23.520] and um as you know television came on in
[00:05:26.880] 53 or four
[00:05:28.080] in that time frame 53 here and so and it
[00:05:30.240] wasn't in the movies and it was the same
[00:05:32.320] stupid dream i'm i'm i'm in bed
[00:05:35.360] laying on my side and i'm in a twin bed
[00:05:38.639] that's up against the wall the corner of
[00:05:40.400] a small bedroom
[00:05:42.080] and i'm laying there and there are
[00:05:45.759] three somethings in
[00:05:49.120] some kind of monk clothing couldn't see
[00:05:52.720] any appendages could see that there were
[00:05:54.880] some kind of arms
[00:05:55.919] i couldn't see faces couldn't see hands
[00:05:57.520] or anything like that if in fact
[00:05:59.360] they they were people and they were
[00:06:02.400] about eye level
[00:06:03.280] as i'm laying in bed so they're pretty
[00:06:05.600] short
[00:06:06.479] and um they were there i wasn't afraid
[00:06:10.639] and these dreams were the same dream
[00:06:12.560] about six maybe half a dozen times
[00:06:15.440] plus or minus and so
[00:06:19.039] now through all the research again that
[00:06:20.800] i've done for a lot of years
[00:06:23.919] with abductees i thought well somebody
[00:06:26.160] would tell me this story
[00:06:27.600] uh i i would want to regress these this
[00:06:30.319] person
[00:06:31.120] and see if they were a candidate you
[00:06:33.039] know i've been abducted or something i
[00:06:34.479] don't know
[00:06:35.360] so i talked it up to dreams and i still
[00:06:38.560] think that that's um
[00:06:40.080] as good an answer as whether or not i
[00:06:43.039] had something more
[00:06:44.160] but i'll accept a very peculiar set of
[00:06:48.080] dreams as the explanation today
[00:06:50.240] we fast forward about 1980. um something
[00:06:53.280] happens in your family
[00:06:54.639] that galvanizes your attention to want
[00:06:56.639] to know more about
[00:06:57.759] the other side whether we go on yeah
[00:07:00.960] well actually the the first um
[00:07:04.160] the first impact for that was before
[00:07:06.800] that oh
[00:07:07.520] for me it was when i was 18. and
[00:07:10.639] my father was killed in a private uh
[00:07:13.120] plane crash
[00:07:15.280] a plane that belonged to a friend of his
[00:07:18.720] and um and so
[00:07:22.319] um that happened when in my first
[00:07:24.880] semester
[00:07:26.000] of school of college and uh
[00:07:30.880] that was very dramatic for me we never
[00:07:33.360] had a funeral
[00:07:34.479] so there was no closure there my mother
[00:07:36.720] didn't want that
[00:07:38.160] and so um
[00:07:42.560] and and there was a the plane exploded
[00:07:46.080] it hit something on the ground hitting
[00:07:47.759] a a structure on the ground and uh
[00:07:50.960] so there's a fire and everything and and
[00:07:53.199] there wasn't
[00:07:54.319] you know um probably much left and
[00:07:58.479] so it took me 10 years to stop having
[00:08:00.800] dreams about him
[00:08:02.639] and and that's a long a whole decade
[00:08:05.440] before i could finally
[00:08:06.720] stop having all different kinds of
[00:08:08.800] dreams
[00:08:09.840] and i don't they weren't parent i would
[00:08:12.400] classify them as paranormal dreams
[00:08:14.879] it was just um an event
[00:08:18.479] where now you have someone very close to
[00:08:20.960] you that
[00:08:22.400] that passed over and
[00:08:25.440] so you so the seed is planted right
[00:08:28.639] the seed is planted as the curiosity
[00:08:31.440] with
[00:08:31.919] what about survival is there any
[00:08:34.800] opportunity for that whatsoever
[00:08:37.279] i mean you know that this is blasphemy
[00:08:39.839] and for a lot of religions
[00:08:41.839] and and certain precepts for people who
[00:08:43.919] already are
[00:08:44.959] are committed to their own beliefs
[00:08:47.519] because
[00:08:48.399] either their parents were whole family
[00:08:50.959] was
[00:08:51.680] and that's what they're taught or
[00:08:53.360] whatever it might be
[00:08:55.040] they say no there there is no survival
[00:08:58.160] at all
[00:08:58.959] this is it this is the end and then you
[00:09:01.760] have agnostics
[00:09:03.200] so you have people who don't know that's
[00:09:05.600] that's fair
[00:09:07.680] so it's not as though everybody in the
[00:09:08.959] world buys off on any of this
[00:09:12.000] you know people need proof and i really
[00:09:14.880] appreciate that because i'm
[00:09:16.399] i'm a doubting thomas i have to have a
[00:09:19.440] lot of white crows
[00:09:21.519] on my pile and then i have to have
[00:09:23.760] multiple piles of white crows
[00:09:26.240] right because i really want to know and
[00:09:29.440] and so i've gotten into the into these
[00:09:31.760] fields
[00:09:33.519] fairly deeply especially in the e.t ufo
[00:09:36.000] field
[00:09:36.800] and uh not and more more deeply than i
[00:09:39.519] have in the survival field
[00:09:41.360] you know but you're right back in about
[00:09:43.279] 1980
[00:09:44.800] um my wife and i we we lost
[00:09:49.200] our son uh later and and we
[00:09:52.480] uh uh i had already been investigating
[00:09:55.440] fortunately
[00:09:56.480] this topic and it helped me
[00:09:59.519] um in in his death in in being able to
[00:10:03.920] cope
[00:10:04.959] with our son's death later on the
[00:10:07.360] thought that
[00:10:08.240] he goes on in some fashion yeah and that
[00:10:10.320] there was hope that
[00:10:11.519] um that his consciousness some part of
[00:10:14.399] him survives
[00:10:16.079] survived and um that was very comforting
[00:10:19.279] to me
[00:10:20.399] i i saw i had little visitations with
[00:10:24.640] with maybe three mediums and
[00:10:28.880] i remember one of them was george
[00:10:30.240] anderson very very nice fellow
[00:10:32.720] and he was helpful um
[00:10:36.240] my wife also saw him as well we
[00:10:39.600] asked him to come to las vegas and he
[00:10:41.200] did and uh
[00:10:43.440] and that helped us a great deal with
[00:10:44.800] that tragedy you're trying to
[00:10:46.720] and this is an emotional atom bomb for
[00:10:49.680] you and your wife
[00:10:50.399] oh yeah as it would for any any families
[00:10:52.959] sure yeah
[00:10:53.839] you you use the mediums to try to
[00:10:55.920] communicate you want to see if you can
[00:10:57.360] communicate
[00:10:58.959] you know we weren't that sophisticated
[00:11:00.880] um
[00:11:02.560] basically it was
[00:11:05.680] can you can you uh express to us some
[00:11:09.600] things
[00:11:10.160] as to what's coming across to you to the
[00:11:13.120] medium
[00:11:14.079] that we haven't told you and you
[00:11:16.480] wouldn't probably know
[00:11:17.760] can you kind of establish proof that
[00:11:20.640] there is an existence there
[00:11:22.480] on the other side um and
[00:11:26.079] and then um i think as close as we got
[00:11:29.279] to any kind of messaging
[00:11:30.959] uh beyond establishing that he was in
[00:11:33.680] some sort of communication
[00:11:35.760] was is he well is he okay you know
[00:11:39.680] and uh we didn't get to very
[00:11:41.680] sophisticated as to
[00:11:43.760] you know start would you tell us a
[00:11:46.240] little bit
[00:11:47.519] as to what the other side is all about
[00:11:50.000] just a little bit
[00:11:51.120] a teeny little bit of anything you know
[00:11:53.920] because
[00:11:55.519] and to me that's that is once you've
[00:11:58.720] gotten
[00:11:59.200] past trying to establish
[00:12:02.480] is there anything to the other side at
[00:12:03.839] all is it is it real is it partially
[00:12:05.920] real
[00:12:06.560] you know is there a one white crow there
[00:12:09.279] that you can't explain
[00:12:11.040] well then you start to say okay if it is
[00:12:14.320] if it might be real it's really
[00:12:17.279] important to you
[00:12:18.639] as to what am i going into
[00:12:22.000] what is it all about what am i what am i
[00:12:25.360] going to
[00:12:25.760] turn into and what am i going to be able
[00:12:28.000] to do
[00:12:29.200] and uh you know is it going to be
[00:12:32.720] miserable and misery or is it going to
[00:12:34.800] be something that's
[00:12:36.000] that has elation to it and a lot of
[00:12:39.120] gratification
[00:12:40.320] you know you feel like you have worth so
[00:12:43.519] you're you have these three mediums you
[00:12:45.040] give it a try
[00:12:46.079] you don't really get anything solid from
[00:12:47.920] them or you get a little bit hints that
[00:12:49.519] it might be
[00:12:50.160] real well frankly i think
[00:12:53.200] two of the three one especially was very
[00:12:55.600] dubious
[00:12:56.720] i mean it was it was bizarre
[00:12:59.760] so i chalk him up another lady
[00:13:04.560] this black lady i think
[00:13:07.600] she she was probably legitimate
[00:13:10.639] again i was so green into this i didn't
[00:13:13.839] know what to ask
[00:13:14.800] what to say but i think i recall that
[00:13:17.839] she had said some things that were
[00:13:19.279] really intriguing
[00:13:21.040] and then george you know so it's not
[00:13:24.480] like i did any real research at all
[00:13:26.880] you know but
[00:13:31.040] and then our grandson passed and
[00:13:34.079] and he died and so again in this field
[00:13:37.920] uh was comforting again to embrace
[00:13:42.320] the possibility that there is going to
[00:13:44.720] be some kind of survival
[00:13:46.880] and it really really helps coping with
[00:13:49.440] these kinds of
[00:13:50.639] uh tragedies you know so you know it's
[00:13:53.120] the it's a huge question
[00:13:55.440] everyone should be involved nobody gets
[00:13:57.279] out of here alive it's
[00:13:58.720] nice to know that you go on that's
[00:14:00.320] always been the province of religion
[00:14:02.079] you know they tell us if you're good you
[00:14:04.399] go on you go here you go there
[00:14:06.720] um but you're looking for something more
[00:14:08.959] substantial and
[00:14:09.839] you know people do uh tend to put that
[00:14:13.279] thing in the
[00:14:14.240] side of their head and not think about
[00:14:15.680] it because they don't want to
[00:14:16.399] contemplate that yeah
[00:14:18.000] well we have we have all kinds of horror
[00:14:19.920] movies about
[00:14:21.360] zombies and about you know um
[00:14:26.720] so entertainment has
[00:14:30.800] taken and and made it scary you know for
[00:14:34.160] children and even adults and uh and i'm
[00:14:37.279] not saying there aren't aspects
[00:14:39.199] there there are i i never
[00:14:43.040] with the ufo topic and et topic um
[00:14:48.320] i never felt threatened i know others
[00:14:52.800] really have and people
[00:14:56.560] that associated with our work
[00:15:00.240] um had times that they had to struggle
[00:15:04.000] with what what they had encountered and
[00:15:07.120] you know
[00:15:07.760] uh these people too and um
[00:15:12.079] and so but i personally
[00:15:15.519] never felt that way i felt a different
[00:15:17.519] kind of connection
[00:15:19.040] and um and so
[00:15:22.959] like with the skinwalker ranch i felt
[00:15:24.880] like i was a
[00:15:26.399] caretaker i was
[00:15:30.480] a facilitating hosting
[00:15:33.759] people to certain kinds of folks
[00:15:36.800] to come to the property government
[00:15:39.600] people
[00:15:40.320] to come to the property and um
[00:15:43.519] scientists to come there and do things
[00:15:45.920] but i was a facilitator is all
[00:15:48.320] and never threatened i had great nights
[00:15:50.639] sleep every single time
[00:15:52.560] and some other people did too you know
[00:15:55.199] um
[00:15:56.720] there's an aspect though to this
[00:15:59.519] survival work
[00:16:01.600] it's a bit different and
[00:16:05.040] um there's there's a there's a piece of
[00:16:08.880] it
[00:16:09.920] that um and if if people bother to read
[00:16:12.639] the literature
[00:16:13.759] if you bother to go into the books
[00:16:17.040] and and really and try to find quality
[00:16:19.360] material
[00:16:20.639] and it's out there by the hundreds of
[00:16:22.959] books
[00:16:24.240] by quality authors uh
[00:16:27.600] you'll come across publications that
[00:16:30.560] after a while
[00:16:31.759] you'll start to get a consensus because
[00:16:34.320] of multiple sources coming at you
[00:16:36.800] and you'll start to get a consensus of a
[00:16:39.440] feeling of things
[00:16:40.880] and um and so it does have this aspect
[00:16:45.680] of of things to be concerned about and
[00:16:50.040] [Music]
[00:16:51.279] you know i've told you that when we
[00:16:53.040] since we formed this institute
[00:16:54.800] in june um
[00:16:58.959] all of a sudden we we had people around
[00:17:02.000] us
[00:17:03.040] that started having things happen and
[00:17:07.839] not all of it was rosie okay
[00:17:10.959] so i mean this is this is family members
[00:17:15.439] myself my staff
[00:17:19.510] [Music]
[00:17:21.679] and none of this we expected normally we
[00:17:23.839] hadn't we hadn't asked for anything
[00:17:25.919] positioned anything decided to do any
[00:17:27.839] kind of this kind of research
[00:17:29.600] our whole intention to begin with was
[00:17:31.760] simply trying to get ourselves up to
[00:17:33.280] speed
[00:17:34.000] in the literature excuse me after being
[00:17:37.039] away from this for
[00:17:38.880] so many years focusing on a space world
[00:17:41.840] right
[00:17:42.880] that's been mainly what i've been doing
[00:17:45.280] except for the
[00:17:46.240] skinwalker ranch thing for 20 years is
[00:17:48.559] the space
[00:17:49.600] world has been huge in my life
[00:17:53.520] to pursue the legitimate parochial
[00:17:57.440] kind of you know using fire engines
[00:17:59.440] rockets to get you there
[00:18:01.039] uh so um
[00:18:06.160] so we didn't expect anything like this
[00:18:08.000] to happen and so there
[00:18:09.919] this is a different this is this uh holy
[00:18:13.200] grail is
[00:18:14.000] different than the second holy grail if
[00:18:16.160] the second one being
[00:18:17.440] the e-t is a little bit lower and this
[00:18:20.720] first one is there any part of your
[00:18:23.280] consciousness
[00:18:24.320] that survives your bodily death that's a
[00:18:27.760] big
[00:18:28.000] deal that's a huge story that's gigantic
[00:18:31.840] like i said people don't want to think
[00:18:33.440] about it or talk about it
[00:18:34.880] in general because they don't want to
[00:18:36.320] think about dying or that's right
[00:18:38.080] contemplate that
[00:18:39.039] yeah who does no getting around but uh
[00:18:42.320] if the project that we're about to
[00:18:44.240] discuss if it is successful
[00:18:46.480] if you could establish contact if you
[00:18:48.480] could you know
[00:18:50.080] prove it uh it could be a great benefit
[00:18:52.559] to everyone
[00:18:53.360] i mean well yeah you have to be you know
[00:18:56.640] a little careful about what you wish for
[00:19:01.200] so on the face of it communication
[00:19:04.240] sounds great and that by the way that
[00:19:08.240] has been tried
[00:19:09.600] forever ever since the oracle of delphi
[00:19:12.240] i mean you can go back
[00:19:13.679] thousands of years and and and that's
[00:19:16.320] been
[00:19:16.720] attempted so it's not now these you know
[00:19:18.960] the last 100 years through
[00:19:20.960] through electronics and using some kind
[00:19:23.200] of electrical
[00:19:24.480] apparatus to try to have some kind of
[00:19:26.640] communications
[00:19:28.160] um and
[00:19:31.360] you know communication can be at all
[00:19:33.039] different kinds of levels
[00:19:34.799] it can there might be a communication
[00:19:37.760] that just causes you an awareness
[00:19:40.160] that there is something else there that
[00:19:42.000] is acting upon something
[00:19:44.240] so you're not getting any kind of
[00:19:45.840] message other than
[00:19:47.280] uh i'm acting upon something you know it
[00:19:50.240] might just be a uh
[00:19:52.880] you know that as they say i'm not a
[00:19:55.520] robot type of
[00:19:56.640] type of thing and we've heard that so um
[00:20:00.160] we'll we'll divert a little bit then
[00:20:01.600] we'll come back to the the bix and the
[00:20:03.200] consciousness
[00:20:04.240] mission you so you're you're diving into
[00:20:06.240] consciousness you're
[00:20:07.360] reaching out to try to figure out if
[00:20:08.720] communication is possible or is there
[00:20:10.640] somebody on the other side
[00:20:11.840] right and then you dive into ufos
[00:20:15.280] in a big way for a number of years uh
[00:20:18.640] i know in 1989 we produced a series that
[00:20:21.280] was our first
[00:20:22.159] contact after that aired and the whole
[00:20:24.320] lazar story came out
[00:20:25.679] right um is was that a trigger point for
[00:20:27.840] you or you were already
[00:20:29.280] diving into ufos with the same vigor and
[00:20:32.840] enthusiasm i
[00:20:34.480] i had committed myself before that uh to
[00:20:37.280] investigate and one of the things i
[00:20:39.120] again i started off was reading reading
[00:20:41.120] reading reading trying to get myself up
[00:20:42.640] to speed
[00:20:43.440] i read a book a week for a year just so
[00:20:46.720] i could talk the talk and understand
[00:20:48.480] if people were talking about cases in
[00:20:50.880] colombia or in argentina or in
[00:20:53.120] california or wherever
[00:20:55.039] uh i knew the the basics about a whole
[00:20:58.000] lot of
[00:20:58.799] of observations encounters and witnesses
[00:21:01.679] stories and
[00:21:02.559] and events and and and cash crash
[00:21:05.679] retrieval uh incidences or
[00:21:07.760] trace cases or whatever and so it's just
[00:21:10.799] so that i understood what people were
[00:21:13.840] talking about
[00:21:14.640] right so you have to go through the
[00:21:16.720] literature first
[00:21:17.919] and put the effort into reading and just
[00:21:20.640] not go off half cocked
[00:21:22.400] and so i'm i'm still in this mode here
[00:21:25.280] in the survival work
[00:21:27.280] and still trying to read and read in
[00:21:29.039] spare time and
[00:21:31.039] trying to network with people you know
[00:21:33.679] that
[00:21:34.240] that commune with other folks and like
[00:21:36.000] yourself you know george
[00:21:37.840] you're you're an amazing journalist
[00:21:41.520] and what you know and and all that
[00:21:43.840] you've you've made
[00:21:45.039] your your job to to get an into and
[00:21:47.919] investigate
[00:21:48.799] and so i'm kind of doing that too
[00:21:50.640] because i'm i look at myself as a
[00:21:53.360] i guess as a researcher and maybe a
[00:21:56.400] facilitator if i can help
[00:21:58.559] in any way to try to to help people
[00:22:02.400] find answers and and all of us kind of
[00:22:05.360] collaborating together
[00:22:06.880] well it's a steep learning curve in both
[00:22:08.720] of those topics you gotta
[00:22:10.480] read a lot to get your head around the
[00:22:11.919] basics yeah and in some ways it almost
[00:22:14.320] feels like it's it's
[00:22:15.760] not intended for you to know in some
[00:22:17.760] ways right
[00:22:18.799] you have these walls these glass walls
[00:22:21.520] that
[00:22:22.000] all of a sudden in both of these topics
[00:22:24.720] and it makes it
[00:22:26.880] very very tough to try and get further
[00:22:29.679] you get teased
[00:22:31.039] by so many kinds of things right yeah
[00:22:33.679] you know
[00:22:34.159] and yeah and are working both in both
[00:22:36.320] fields uh
[00:22:37.520] 1989 bob lazar pops onto the scene
[00:22:41.200] and uh and you wanted to meet him you
[00:22:42.960] did meet him yeah we hung out we
[00:22:45.039] we would go out today yeah and just uh
[00:22:47.039] bs for hours we'd go up to rachel go out
[00:22:49.280] in the desert
[00:22:50.320] right a lot has been written about you
[00:22:52.559] and bob your relationship you went into
[00:22:54.640] business for a while
[00:22:56.080] how you've sort of uh you find him to be
[00:22:58.799] a fraud
[00:22:59.600] he made it all up you parted ways it was
[00:23:02.320] acrimonious
[00:23:03.679] can you uh talk about that a little bit
[00:23:06.880] i never i never viewed uh
[00:23:09.919] uh bob as as being a fraud
[00:23:13.600] uh as to you know area 51
[00:23:16.880] and all of that i spent quite a bit of i
[00:23:19.840] spent
[00:23:20.480] a certain amount of time in
[00:23:21.679] conversations with him we put a
[00:23:24.480] a little bitty uh business together and
[00:23:27.600] uh tried to do something for about four
[00:23:29.600] months in that business
[00:23:31.520] and so there i had opportunities
[00:23:35.280] to test him like you would
[00:23:38.559] like anybody would you know and and see
[00:23:41.600] if he repeated the same thing
[00:23:43.840] and and stuck to his stories and and or
[00:23:46.880] what kinds of things could i find that
[00:23:48.640] were not legitimate
[00:23:50.240] and i didn't find much uh i don't i
[00:23:53.520] wouldn't say it was
[00:23:54.480] zero but i didn't find much that i could
[00:23:57.039] say
[00:23:57.679] oh no this guy is is is absolutely off
[00:24:01.600] uh you know in in and what he's
[00:24:05.039] telling me is is the truth and uh so i
[00:24:07.919] wouldn't say that
[00:24:09.520] that um that he had not
[00:24:12.720] experienced a lot of the things he
[00:24:15.120] claims that he has
[00:24:16.080] you think he did i think the odds i
[00:24:18.799] would look at
[00:24:19.279] in terms of odds this is las vegas right
[00:24:21.200] so i would say
[00:24:22.400] the odds are bob lazar has
[00:24:25.679] for the most part on everything he has
[00:24:28.000] said
[00:24:28.799] it has been telling the truth those are
[00:24:31.200] the odds
[00:24:32.000] and i would say if you're betting
[00:24:33.679] against that you're betting against
[00:24:35.600] substantial odds
[00:24:37.279] and that the chances are you're going to
[00:24:39.200] lose
[00:24:40.320] if you if you think that he's been lying
[00:24:42.480] the chances are you're going to lose
[00:24:44.720] there's a also the allegation about
[00:24:46.799] element 115 do you think element 115
[00:24:49.440] exists existed and that he had a piece
[00:24:52.000] of it at one point
[00:24:52.960] and did he try to fool you with the 115
[00:24:56.320] and the era gel
[00:24:59.840] i discovered um that aerogel
[00:25:03.600] uh was not what it purported what he
[00:25:07.120] i guess what he was saying it was and it
[00:25:09.440] was it was accidentally
[00:25:10.960] i accidentally uh came across
[00:25:14.080] the fact that this this beautiful
[00:25:17.760] smoky very lightweight kind of crystal
[00:25:21.120] weird yeah was was aerogel
[00:25:24.720] totally by accident i happen to be going
[00:25:26.559] through a magazine and i thought oh my
[00:25:28.720] god i saw a picture
[00:25:30.000] of this material in the magazine and i
[00:25:32.960] pursued it and found out
[00:25:34.480] it was alcohol-based it was aerogel it
[00:25:36.880] was invented in 1930s
[00:25:38.799] and it could be used as an insulative
[00:25:41.120] kind of material
[00:25:42.320] it was five times the weight of air and
[00:25:45.200] it was beautiful
[00:25:46.240] it looked like a kind of a gem gee you'd
[00:25:48.159] want to put it on a
[00:25:49.440] you know a woman's finger because it
[00:25:50.880] looks so beautiful as a big ring
[00:25:54.080] that was the only thing that i that i
[00:25:56.480] really felt um
[00:25:57.919] that of of of a physical piece of
[00:26:01.120] something
[00:26:01.840] so i have no opinion about the element
[00:26:04.320] 115
[00:26:05.279] i think
[00:26:09.360] the bob was intriguing because
[00:26:12.640] he knew so much he's a smart guy
[00:26:15.919] he he's he's no dummy he's a smart man
[00:26:18.880] he's a smart guy
[00:26:20.400] um and very creative and
[00:26:24.159] so again i i say that
[00:26:28.000] the preponderance of evidence to me is
[00:26:30.559] in his favor
[00:26:31.760] that he's he's he's by and large
[00:26:34.159] legitimate
[00:26:35.279] he had told me that that aerogel arrived
[00:26:37.600] with the 115. it was like packing
[00:26:39.520] material he didn't know what it was
[00:26:41.360] but later i guess he developed a story
[00:26:43.279] that he told you about what he thought
[00:26:44.880] it was but he didn't decide to say it
[00:26:46.159] was 115.
[00:26:47.120] well it doesn't mean that he would
[00:26:50.240] necessarily know
[00:26:51.919] what the original custody of the
[00:26:54.000] material was
[00:26:55.039] right just because it's associated with
[00:26:57.039] something doesn't mean that this bottle
[00:26:58.799] of water
[00:26:59.360] which stands next to something else
[00:27:00.960] peculiar right uh they're both connected
[00:27:03.679] you know so it means he may have uh left
[00:27:07.039] to that assumption that the aerogel
[00:27:10.320] because it was an association physically
[00:27:13.279] nearby or whatever
[00:27:14.640] with the 115 was somehow connected and
[00:27:17.120] he just didn't know what it was
[00:27:18.960] you know so i would give him the benefit
[00:27:21.120] of the doubt on that and
[00:27:22.240] and because i don't have anything else
[00:27:24.080] that is more concrete i'd rather not say
[00:27:26.000] well somebody
[00:27:26.960] uh you know that he he knew differently
[00:27:30.000] one of the tests you did was to see if
[00:27:31.600] he was motivated by money and
[00:27:33.279] what you've told me is that you didn't
[00:27:34.559] think he was i i tempted him i
[00:27:36.960] you know i i in different ways i can
[00:27:39.200] remember uh
[00:27:40.240] in a conversation that we had and he
[00:27:42.080] probably isn't even aware
[00:27:43.760] uh that i did that but i i offered him
[00:27:46.559] money
[00:27:48.399] i forget the circumstances now but uh it
[00:27:51.279] didn't tempt him at all
[00:27:53.039] and and so i thought well either he's
[00:27:55.679] awful goddamn peculiar
[00:27:57.360] you know or there's something legitimate
[00:27:59.360] going on here you went into business to
[00:28:01.440] build a certain device
[00:28:02.799] he set him up in a small lab to see how
[00:28:05.120] he did
[00:28:06.000] and then you split after a while you
[00:28:07.919] split up yeah a lot of stories told
[00:28:09.679] about that yeah what's the bottom line
[00:28:11.440] for you
[00:28:11.919] i had a gal working for me that would
[00:28:14.559] check up on him
[00:28:15.520] and uh and i was out of town at the time
[00:28:19.360] and uh she says and so i said okay
[00:28:23.360] what's going on in the lab and she said
[00:28:25.360] well i'm really sorry to tell you
[00:28:26.880] it's being used as a as a little
[00:28:29.039] warehouse for
[00:28:30.000] for furniture you know and i thought oh
[00:28:32.960] geez
[00:28:33.600] okay that's i i can see i see the signs
[00:28:36.559] now okay that
[00:28:37.520] that's the end of it that he just wasn't
[00:28:39.200] doing what he said he would do
[00:28:40.640] correct correct so that sounds very
[00:28:42.799] bob-like doesn't it yeah it was a it was
[00:28:44.480] a storehouse
[00:28:45.600] you know warehouse for him because he
[00:28:47.120] had this furniture and no place to put
[00:28:48.799] it i guess
[00:28:50.000] yeah that was all that was all it was uh
[00:28:52.399] what was it
[00:28:53.039] uh zeta reticuli uh two or two
[00:28:56.559] yeah yeah yeah zeta reticuli 1 is a
[00:28:59.279] binary star system
[00:29:00.799] that's 38 light years away so
[00:29:04.240] so that experience it seems like a
[00:29:07.360] timeline
[00:29:08.240] after that you started investing money
[00:29:10.720] in researchers supporting
[00:29:12.000] them to do work bud hopkins linda howe
[00:29:14.799] oh yeah
[00:29:15.600] yeah yeah i i sought
[00:29:18.799] out the best of the best and
[00:29:22.159] they were part of the best of the best
[00:29:24.840] researchers and uh
[00:29:26.880] again i i you can't you don't want to be
[00:29:29.600] a
[00:29:30.159] a one-man band you you want to embrace
[00:29:33.039] other people
[00:29:34.159] to try to to accomplish more
[00:29:38.559] and we all have to do that in trying to
[00:29:40.960] grow and whatever
[00:29:42.240] we're trying to do going going alone is
[00:29:44.799] is uh
[00:29:45.840] it's a much slower path right so um
[00:29:50.240] so yeah bud uh was a great guy i liked
[00:29:54.080] bud he was
[00:29:54.799] he was uh you know an artist a really
[00:29:58.240] good artist
[00:29:59.039] and a terrific self-made researcher
[00:30:02.080] incredible and an author you know he
[00:30:05.200] he was a clever man um so
[00:30:08.399] did was it results oriented or you just
[00:30:10.640] wanted to support
[00:30:11.840] projects or how did it work and john
[00:30:13.919] mack i think was one of the people you
[00:30:15.360] helped right
[00:30:15.840] yeah a lot of the research was um
[00:30:19.360] topical topic specific
[00:30:22.399] and linda howe had
[00:30:26.080] her category of analyzing cattle
[00:30:28.559] mutilation tissues and
[00:30:30.320] and hemoglobin and to see if
[00:30:34.080] high heat was used possibly laser and
[00:30:37.520] causing incisions and other kinds of
[00:30:39.279] things and so she pioneered all of that
[00:30:41.919] kind of work
[00:30:43.120] um and uh
[00:30:46.320] and then bud of course in in doing uh
[00:30:50.000] abduction research and um
[00:30:55.120] and so we were involved in in
[00:30:59.120] um in one time we in a
[00:31:03.120] crash retrieval uh incident
[00:31:06.559] and to our satisfaction we verified that
[00:31:10.480] that that did occur and uh
[00:31:14.159] stan freeman another crash retrieval uh
[00:31:17.840] incident we verified that that
[00:31:21.279] occurred and both of these were
[00:31:25.760] in new mexico and uh
[00:31:32.080] and the first one wasn't uh wasn't the
[00:31:34.320] roswell incident this other one occurred
[00:31:36.240] in the 60s
[00:31:37.840] um and
[00:31:40.880] so it's in and john mack and he was
[00:31:44.320] looking at it
[00:31:45.120] from a different clinical kind of
[00:31:46.559] standpoint on
[00:31:48.480] abductees i sponsored a number of
[00:31:51.919] of um free lectures
[00:31:55.039] where he and and other folks into this
[00:31:58.320] field researchers
[00:32:00.000] would engage mental health professionals
[00:32:03.840] and psychologists psychiatrists and
[00:32:06.720] other therapists
[00:32:08.080] and challenge the audience we had
[00:32:11.200] maybe a hundred people each time in
[00:32:13.200] major cities
[00:32:14.320] and challenge them to come up with
[00:32:17.360] an explanation as to why these people
[00:32:21.360] were claiming these ridiculous making
[00:32:23.679] these ridiculous claims about
[00:32:25.760] being involved in an abduction an alien
[00:32:28.080] abduction
[00:32:29.039] what kind of psychosis is responsible
[00:32:31.200] for that
[00:32:32.159] you know what would it be especially if
[00:32:34.399] there are multiple abduct or multiple
[00:32:36.159] people
[00:32:36.640] involved in the abduction as witnesses
[00:32:39.679] you got a collective psychosis now you
[00:32:41.919] know and
[00:32:43.200] and so by the end of the evenings
[00:32:46.960] they would run completely out of gas the
[00:32:48.799] audience would and
[00:32:50.080] and couldn't because everything had been
[00:32:52.159] answered and to their satisfaction
[00:32:54.640] it wasn't that they've been told to shut
[00:32:56.720] up or anything it's that
[00:32:57.919] they ran out of gas they had no more um
[00:33:01.840] questions to ask because they couldn't
[00:33:04.559] think of anything else
[00:33:05.600] as a cause for for for these might
[00:33:08.080] explain part of it yeah not the totality
[00:33:10.000] of it yeah
[00:33:10.640] john was a great guy he he was he was so
[00:33:13.600] unfortunate his passing
[00:33:15.360] but he was a great guy and of course
[00:33:17.039] harvard was trying to get rid of him
[00:33:18.640] yeah
[00:33:19.279] you know uh trying to get rid of him and
[00:33:22.000] um
[00:33:22.340] [Music]
[00:33:23.600] bless his heart he fought back and won
[00:33:27.200] the creation of nids i remember you had
[00:33:29.519] offered a million dollars to these three
[00:33:31.440] ufo organizations hey i just want you
[00:33:33.600] guys to get along
[00:33:35.039] and do some actual research and they
[00:33:37.840] couldn't do it
[00:33:38.880] right yeah
[00:33:45.919] now okay because there was a
[00:33:49.600] you know our government program
[00:33:52.720] that's later that was later okay so
[00:33:56.640] okay so what you're talking about i did
[00:33:58.240] personally yeah i think it was pre-nids
[00:34:00.080] i think
[00:34:00.480] yeah it was right leading up before nids
[00:34:02.880] yeah you got kind of disgusted with the
[00:34:04.480] ufo organization well
[00:34:07.679] there was always um territoriality
[00:34:10.879] with the ufo research group as is common
[00:34:13.200] with any
[00:34:14.159] any group populated by humans that you
[00:34:16.960] know you're protect
[00:34:18.079] you're protecting your turf you're
[00:34:20.079] trying to protect your reputation
[00:34:22.000] you don't want to be ostracized you
[00:34:23.440] don't want to be made a fool of you
[00:34:25.119] don't want to lose grants
[00:34:26.560] you don't want to lose your peers the
[00:34:28.240] respect of your peers
[00:34:29.760] so all these pressures go on all the
[00:34:31.359] time right this second right now this
[00:34:33.040] minute uh all
[00:34:34.800] across this country and it time it
[00:34:37.440] handcuffs
[00:34:38.240] a lot of people in being able to have
[00:34:40.639] the freedom
[00:34:41.679] to explore their curiosity and
[00:34:44.960] so these the ufo groups were done
[00:34:47.119] different they had their
[00:34:48.000] turf and they had their kind of whether
[00:34:50.399] it was koufos fu4 or mufon
[00:34:52.639] right is that those are the ones that's
[00:34:54.639] the ones okay
[00:34:55.839] i don't know don't ask me about the
[00:34:57.680] acronyms on these things
[00:34:59.200] anyway uh is what they stand for but um
[00:35:02.560] they all had their territory and mufon
[00:35:05.599] was the biggest
[00:35:06.800] and and still is uh
[00:35:09.920] and but working them together was like
[00:35:13.280] herding cats it was really tough
[00:35:15.440] to get them because sharing information
[00:35:18.480] is part of the value of what you possess
[00:35:21.680] right and and having information
[00:35:25.040] might have been acquired through a lot
[00:35:27.200] of difficulty
[00:35:28.800] you know and so um and that's
[00:35:32.480] and that's not something you just want
[00:35:34.560] to freely pass around the table
[00:35:37.040] if you've gone to an awful lot of
[00:35:38.480] trouble to acquire the information
[00:35:41.040] or even some objects or whatever it
[00:35:43.119] might be right
[00:35:44.079] so um so that failed is that an impetus
[00:35:47.599] to to create needs
[00:35:49.119] so you decide to create your own
[00:35:50.960] organization
[00:35:55.440] it could have been i don't remember it
[00:35:57.280] could have been
[00:35:58.640] um i just my philosophy is it's just
[00:36:02.079] a lot better to try to to
[00:36:05.260] [Music]
[00:36:06.480] acquire collaboration and uh
[00:36:10.160] try to get everybody rowing in unison
[00:36:14.079] down and maybe down this path and that
[00:36:16.320] path doesn't mean that you have to have
[00:36:17.839] just one path that you're all rowing
[00:36:20.320] down
[00:36:21.280] and be why not have sympathy for another
[00:36:23.920] path
[00:36:24.400] as well if the efficacy is there go for
[00:36:27.680] it
[00:36:28.320] have more than just one damn path you
[00:36:30.560] know so
[00:36:32.880] sometimes it doesn't work needs is
[00:36:35.040] created national institute for discovery
[00:36:36.960] science you put together this
[00:36:38.320] world-class
[00:36:39.200] science advisory board and it is you
[00:36:41.440] know people remember it as a ufo
[00:36:43.200] investigatory
[00:36:44.160] organization but it really was both of
[00:36:46.400] the subjects
[00:36:47.200] yeah we had we had two pillars of that
[00:36:49.839] organization
[00:36:50.720] and and we wound up we tackled the in
[00:36:53.280] our infinite wisdom
[00:36:54.960] both the survival of consciousness and
[00:36:58.000] the ufo topic because we didn't know any
[00:37:00.400] better
[00:37:02.079] and we bit off a lot more than than we
[00:37:05.040] could chew
[00:37:05.680] and we finally came to a point we had a
[00:37:09.119] very sizable
[00:37:10.640] board a group of folks science advisor
[00:37:14.720] members and you say you know
[00:37:18.079] they were world class they they really
[00:37:19.839] were and
[00:37:22.480] from all different kinds of backgrounds
[00:37:24.960] i was very proud of
[00:37:26.560] who all these people were and are you
[00:37:29.599] know
[00:37:29.920] hal put off kitt green jacques valet
[00:37:33.359] two astronauts you know edgar mitchell
[00:37:37.040] um and then on the on the on the
[00:37:39.440] consciousness side
[00:37:40.640] there were some big names there as well
[00:37:42.880] ian stevenson
[00:37:43.760] ian stevenson bruce grayson emily cook
[00:37:46.160] and jessica utts were there
[00:37:48.560] and ian was it was a great guy great
[00:37:51.520] researcher and you know he's so
[00:37:53.599] he was world famous and
[00:37:56.800] uh rightfully so and they were into the
[00:38:00.400] survival topic
[00:38:02.640] so um there came a time
[00:38:06.480] when uh we began to realize
[00:38:11.119] that it seemed to be easier there were
[00:38:14.000] more opportunities
[00:38:16.480] on the e.t ufo subject
[00:38:19.520] to pursue to do research on
[00:38:23.520] and some were quite enticing and
[00:38:26.960] exciting
[00:38:28.400] um but there were so many more multiple
[00:38:30.560] kinds of categories
[00:38:33.280] the survival presented at that time
[00:38:37.200] more of a difficult challenge and the
[00:38:39.839] ufo side sort of took over and the
[00:38:42.079] consciousness side kind of went away
[00:38:45.520] it did it did part of the ufo
[00:38:48.880] um research that you did in includes the
[00:38:52.079] skin walker ranch this ranch
[00:38:53.520] the bigelow ranch the yeah 1996
[00:38:57.599] you hear bits and pieces about this
[00:38:59.359] strange place a lot of weird activity
[00:39:01.280] ufo activity so you go there
[00:39:03.440] you buy it yeah what was what was your
[00:39:06.560] intention with the ranch
[00:39:09.359] well first i i
[00:39:13.440] i spent quite a bit time talking to
[00:39:15.200] terry sherman um
[00:39:18.000] he and his wife and two children lived
[00:39:19.680] there and he was the owner
[00:39:21.839] and uh they operated the ranch
[00:39:24.880] and they raised cattle there
[00:39:28.160] and they had a phenomenal uh
[00:39:31.839] diversity of encounters
[00:39:35.359] and i totally i
[00:39:38.880] believe that this guy was a was a
[00:39:41.680] squared away
[00:39:43.119] um he was a straight shooter he
[00:39:46.560] he wasn't throwing bologna at me
[00:39:50.240] and
[00:39:53.280] these encounters were real and
[00:39:56.960] so he was
[00:40:01.839] he was an exhausted situation
[00:40:06.079] his wife wound up getting fired from the
[00:40:08.079] bank
[00:40:10.079] because it leaked out that these things
[00:40:12.880] were
[00:40:14.000] they were preoccupied as a family and
[00:40:16.720] discussing these kinds of things once in
[00:40:18.400] a while with select people
[00:40:19.760] thinking they could trust somebody and
[00:40:21.520] these things were kind of happening and
[00:40:23.040] it was like
[00:40:24.079] gee you know these people are so weird
[00:40:25.920] you better not get anywhere near them
[00:40:28.079] and it cost her her job at the bank
[00:40:31.920] for no reason uh other than this
[00:40:35.680] and so
[00:40:39.040] terry and i uh made a deal and
[00:40:42.480] uh providing he would stay on
[00:40:45.760] because i needed somebody there in
[00:40:47.839] addition t he had
[00:40:50.480] you know he had backyard literally
[00:40:53.119] backyard knowledge
[00:40:54.480] of things and so um
[00:40:57.920] he stayed on for for quite a while
[00:41:00.800] whatever the intelligence is there
[00:41:02.400] it's hard to categorize right you go in
[00:41:05.359] i mean you're initially attracted
[00:41:06.720] because you hear stories about flying
[00:41:08.079] saucers then you
[00:41:09.200] realize it's a lot broader than that
[00:41:11.200] yeah it's hard to figure out what it is
[00:41:13.359] though because it was so elusive i know
[00:41:15.440] even now after all the attention that's
[00:41:17.040] been given to it people have a hard time
[00:41:18.960] buying the idea that
[00:41:20.480] something intelligent would would show
[00:41:22.480] you glimpses and
[00:41:24.079] not let you ever get your your hands
[00:41:25.920] around it right
[00:41:28.079] i i did not uh know with whom we were
[00:41:30.960] communicating
[00:41:32.400] and uh
[00:41:36.160] there are two choices basically uh
[00:41:38.800] because
[00:41:39.920] with all the circumstances surrounding
[00:41:41.760] the different kinds of communications
[00:41:44.240] so there weren't parochial answers
[00:41:47.359] um it was either a discard
[00:41:50.640] discarded entities non-human entities or
[00:41:54.000] ets well we could just about eliminate
[00:41:56.880] everything else
[00:41:57.680] because it would be impossible
[00:42:00.720] i mean you can't be 500 miles away and
[00:42:04.160] make requests that things show up
[00:42:07.760] on camera and you have witnesses that
[00:42:10.240] are taking the pictures of the camera
[00:42:12.079] and they they you ask them what is it
[00:42:15.440] that's
[00:42:15.839] that you're seeing in that camera
[00:42:18.960] and they have no idea what to say
[00:42:21.040] because it's not something you've had
[00:42:22.160] any conversation with them
[00:42:23.440] about and they're just describing you
[00:42:25.359] what it is and it's exactly what you
[00:42:27.440] requested
[00:42:29.200] and you do it again and you do it again
[00:42:32.079] and it says
[00:42:32.880] and it's their different kinds of things
[00:42:34.960] that are showing up
[00:42:35.920] is what you requested and they're
[00:42:37.200] telling you this over the telephone
[00:42:40.319] we had we we set up we had uh
[00:42:44.800] spontaneous uh photos in different
[00:42:47.280] places
[00:42:48.240] um and things would would happen there
[00:42:52.160] there's no reason for photons to travel
[00:42:54.240] five feet
[00:42:55.040] and stop you know five or six feet
[00:42:58.560] and everything is blacked out behind
[00:43:00.319] that because of
[00:43:01.599] what we don't know but that's as far as
[00:43:03.599] the photons would travel
[00:43:06.000] or you're randomly taking pictures and
[00:43:08.480] you're capturing a nice stand right
[00:43:10.160] alongside the bed
[00:43:11.280] and in that photo something is lifting
[00:43:13.040] off
[00:43:14.480] and it's changing hue and tone uh
[00:43:17.680] and shades of color it looks very
[00:43:21.280] mechanical
[00:43:22.400] but it's hard to tell there appears to
[00:43:24.960] be
[00:43:25.440] a not only the movement it's it's in an
[00:43:27.839] arc
[00:43:28.640] but it is it's a little blurry like
[00:43:32.079] there's movement going on
[00:43:33.440] but of course it's in it is moving but
[00:43:36.000] maybe
[00:43:36.800] there's something else happening too and
[00:43:39.119] no it wasn't a bird
[00:43:40.720] or a butterfly that was sitting there at
[00:43:43.280] that it wasn't it wasn't some kind of
[00:43:45.119] object like that
[00:43:46.319] you know because of the circumstances
[00:43:49.359] or you're taking pictures of something
[00:43:52.839] um you take pictures of
[00:43:55.520] rods flying past different color kinds
[00:43:57.920] of
[00:43:58.720] something tubular going by um
[00:44:02.020] [Music]
[00:44:03.520] you're taking pictures of where there's
[00:44:05.599] so many orbs
[00:44:07.040] around someone who is sick
[00:44:10.880] legitimately ill and
[00:44:14.640] uh and now they start feeling better
[00:44:18.000] and the camera is catching all this in
[00:44:20.319] multiple shots
[00:44:22.000] and it's a cloud there's you can't count
[00:44:23.760] them there's thousands and you can't
[00:44:25.599] it's in a cloud formation and only on
[00:44:27.359] the periphery
[00:44:28.240] are you able to start to see some
[00:44:29.760] individual ones
[00:44:31.280] it's it's all lit up but your your other
[00:44:34.240] your other photos
[00:44:35.280] before all that is darker than the aura
[00:44:38.800] outside this is nighttime
[00:44:40.880] and so there was a blackness that that
[00:44:43.760] blocked out
[00:44:45.280] any kind of ambient light coming from
[00:44:48.400] the moon or some other who knows what
[00:44:52.160] at that place there weren't any other
[00:44:53.920] kinds of uh normal lights so it had to
[00:44:56.240] have been probably moonlight
[00:44:57.920] but there there was a blackness like
[00:44:59.599] around you there would be
[00:45:01.760] an outline as a kind of a dark
[00:45:04.240] silhouette behind you
[00:45:06.079] that's blocking out the fact that you
[00:45:07.680] can see a tree trunk over here
[00:45:09.839] but you can't see something else right
[00:45:11.680] next to you in between
[00:45:14.400] so and then the orbs all start coming in
[00:45:16.640] so
[00:45:17.599] we had multiple different kinds of
[00:45:19.119] things you know we had the case where
[00:45:21.839] the camera's in view of another camera
[00:45:23.760] and that other camera
[00:45:24.960] is is all disconnected
[00:45:28.480] you know the cable runs up 30 feet to
[00:45:31.599] the telephone pole
[00:45:32.800] and every four feet on center there is
[00:45:34.800] duct tape
[00:45:36.079] binding the the harnessing of the of the
[00:45:38.720] cable together and then the cable goes
[00:45:40.400] through a
[00:45:41.280] steel box and there's knots tied inside
[00:45:43.680] so you can't just pull it back out of
[00:45:45.200] that box
[00:45:46.240] and everything's all taken apart in full
[00:45:48.160] view of the other camera
[00:45:49.599] and then you but when you look at the
[00:45:50.960] footage there's nothing there there's
[00:45:52.160] nothing there
[00:45:52.880] we couldn't see anything you know was
[00:45:54.480] that a message from the phenomenon of
[00:45:56.480] the intelligence
[00:45:58.640] are you hunting it's all about messaging
[00:46:02.079] so it's all about games and gaming and
[00:46:04.800] messaging in our case
[00:46:06.160] we didn't have anybody hurt there was an
[00:46:08.160] episode with
[00:46:09.280] with the ranch manager after uh
[00:46:12.560] terry uh i hired some other folks some
[00:46:15.359] some wonderful people
[00:46:16.880] and um he had a horse accident but
[00:46:21.119] i we don't know enough to make any uh
[00:46:24.400] suppositions or claims or anything uh
[00:46:26.560] speculation about that
[00:46:29.520] but we never had anybody hurt on
[00:46:32.480] property
[00:46:33.680] there was there was hurt hurt and
[00:46:36.560] because of these events
[00:46:39.680] so what it was all about
[00:46:42.880] it was games there was instructions
[00:46:45.359] through participating in games that we
[00:46:46.960] would set up
[00:46:48.319] and we would verify the controls on
[00:46:50.560] those games
[00:46:51.440] could not have been manipulated by a
[00:46:53.520] human or person
[00:46:54.480] in the meantime and it worked though i
[00:46:56.160] mean something moved these things
[00:46:57.760] oh absolutely and we took pictures of
[00:46:59.599] course before and after
[00:47:00.800] and nobody else was was able to do that
[00:47:03.520] was around to do that
[00:47:05.200] right and and the re-establishing of the
[00:47:08.480] game
[00:47:09.119] was better than we had set it up there
[00:47:11.520] was more information being given by the
[00:47:13.680] way it was reconstituted
[00:47:15.440] than the way that we had established the
[00:47:17.040] game and to begin with
[00:47:18.720] right it's all about messaging it was
[00:47:20.880] all about instructional kinds of things
[00:47:23.040] were you on the verge of communicating
[00:47:24.640] you think a couple of times i mean if
[00:47:26.240] there was back and forth that you didn't
[00:47:27.839] really
[00:47:28.480] ever establish who you're communicating
[00:47:30.079] with
[00:47:31.520] well it finally got to where i you know
[00:47:34.000] from me personally
[00:47:35.520] it was
[00:47:38.960] i don't know how to how to say that um
[00:47:42.319] because it sounds stupid um
[00:47:46.880] but i've said a lot of stupid things so
[00:47:48.400] i don't mind
[00:47:50.480] you know i got a little tired or
[00:47:53.680] bored because i wasn't making any
[00:47:55.760] progress of understanding the who
[00:47:58.000] and all i could do i could keep on
[00:48:00.000] asking for orbs and taking pictures and
[00:48:02.160] wherever i happened to be not just at
[00:48:03.760] the ranch or other things and
[00:48:05.200] a lot of people do that kind of thing
[00:48:06.960] but also asking things to manifest on
[00:48:09.200] photos
[00:48:10.160] and being making those requests and and
[00:48:12.720] i would be in las vegas and they'd be at
[00:48:14.400] the ranch and we'd be
[00:48:15.760] doing that back and forth and thing
[00:48:19.440] but you begin to say
[00:48:22.880] okay um
[00:48:25.920] we don't know as i said with whom we
[00:48:27.839] were communicating
[00:48:29.119] and uh this could go on and on and on
[00:48:32.839] now i'm not a
[00:48:35.680] i've had to learn to acquire some
[00:48:37.599] patients you know i'm not a super
[00:48:39.280] patient guy but i'm trying to do my best
[00:48:42.000] and
[00:48:42.640] and and work on that and i'm better than
[00:48:44.960] i was
[00:48:46.000] um but um but
[00:48:49.280] i probably needed to have a have a lot
[00:48:51.440] more patience than what i did
[00:48:53.760] have and um and i probably got off on
[00:48:56.640] some other track
[00:48:57.920] you know distracted by something else
[00:49:00.240] and just decided
[00:49:01.359] well um you know we were
[00:49:04.480] we were repeating a lot of things that
[00:49:06.240] was going on
[00:49:07.520] and we weren't having craft manifest on
[00:49:10.800] the ranch
[00:49:12.000] uh that was the full-blown
[00:49:15.040] broad daylight kind of thing that
[00:49:17.119] happened with terry
[00:49:19.200] now we had things happen on the ranch
[00:49:21.920] that
[00:49:23.839] two of our folks saw something in a high
[00:49:27.920] canopy of trees
[00:49:29.440] very tall trees and in the upper canopy
[00:49:32.079] blocked out
[00:49:34.000] stars and limbs and something was
[00:49:36.160] commingled
[00:49:37.280] up there and then it disappeared it
[00:49:39.839] moved on
[00:49:40.720] the tunnel well in the tunnel was
[00:49:43.440] another one
[00:49:44.000] where somebody with night vision goggles
[00:49:46.160] could see it the other person could not
[00:49:47.760] see it
[00:49:48.480] and you'd switch them back and it was
[00:49:49.920] true that you had to have those goggles
[00:49:51.920] if you weren't using those you couldn't
[00:49:53.599] see that that light had turned into
[00:49:57.520] a structure that looked like a pipe and
[00:50:00.240] something crawled out of the pipe and
[00:50:01.760] walked away
[00:50:03.520] these things were real i mean they
[00:50:04.640] really did happen your employees your
[00:50:06.720] scientists saw them
[00:50:08.559] there were physical very physical
[00:50:10.720] manifestations the calf mutilation
[00:50:13.280] other cattle and animals that were
[00:50:15.200] destroyed or
[00:50:16.319] carved up there were the destruction of
[00:50:18.400] the camera the ice circle and
[00:50:20.079] a lot of things that were physical but
[00:50:21.920] in general this was elusive it would
[00:50:24.160] give you a glimpse
[00:50:26.240] tease you a little bit and then almost
[00:50:29.520] scoff and laugh well it gets frustrating
[00:50:31.680] yeah because you have so many of these
[00:50:33.520] things happen
[00:50:34.640] and where is it leading where what are
[00:50:37.599] you supposed to make of it
[00:50:39.200] you know after a while it it's not that
[00:50:42.800] it's
[00:50:44.240] it gets it gets to be just frustrating
[00:50:47.200] that
[00:50:48.160] you could these things would would
[00:50:50.640] happen
[00:50:51.520] and maybe you can cause them to happen
[00:50:54.160] again
[00:50:55.680] okay um but you want to try to get to
[00:50:59.920] what is the point here tell us more
[00:51:04.160] talk to us communicate something
[00:51:07.359] in a way that we can understand that now
[00:51:09.839] we need to shift
[00:51:11.200] to do rather than just guessing and
[00:51:13.280] doing all that
[00:51:15.200] we wanted more we wanted to be able to
[00:51:17.119] shift and and
[00:51:18.319] change the communication kinds of format
[00:51:24.800] again we might you know we might have
[00:51:26.480] been just too
[00:51:27.839] impatient and maybe not creative enough
[00:51:31.119] in our thinking um i also
[00:51:36.160] i was i got very disturbed toward the
[00:51:39.359] end
[00:51:40.400] about something that happened to
[00:51:44.319] some of the government people
[00:51:47.920] and i realized uh holy crap
[00:51:52.079] hitchhikers um
[00:51:56.079] well yeah but you know and so
[00:51:59.520] hitchhikers being that you take you take
[00:52:02.720] things home with you
[00:52:04.640] everybody took things home with them i
[00:52:06.640] took things to my house
[00:52:08.079] things happened to my wife and and to me
[00:52:10.800] and different
[00:52:11.359] different things so everybody took
[00:52:13.280] things home
[00:52:14.559] we all you know we did but we didn't
[00:52:16.800] know that
[00:52:17.760] gee it was like going to be kind of
[00:52:19.359] permanent you know we didn't accept we
[00:52:21.200] didn't know that
[00:52:22.319] you know that it's going to stay with
[00:52:23.680] you for maybe the for years and years or
[00:52:25.839] the rest of your life who knows
[00:52:27.599] um but the ones that
[00:52:30.720] bothered me a lot were where anybody got
[00:52:33.920] hurt
[00:52:34.960] or really disturbed and it did
[00:52:38.319] not that it happened on the ranch it was
[00:52:40.640] when they left the ranch as you say
[00:52:42.640] hitchhikers
[00:52:43.920] and these were government people and
[00:52:46.800] affected them
[00:52:48.319] very dramatic ways very dramatic ways
[00:52:51.440] very dramatic ways um
[00:52:56.240] you know and there's a cousin to that
[00:52:58.720] that we're facing
[00:53:01.359] but it's a beta moment it's a beta at
[00:53:03.520] least for now
[00:53:04.480] and this other survival topic right very
[00:53:07.680] dramatic kind of things
[00:53:09.359] that we'd wanted to have reduced or
[00:53:12.480] stopped so
[00:53:13.440] but going back to the government people
[00:53:15.440] that that
[00:53:18.240] the the buyer came along at the right
[00:53:20.480] time i
[00:53:21.440] uh had decided i want wanted to
[00:53:28.720] yeah take it off my plate tone it down
[00:53:30.800] and if nessa
[00:53:31.760] just lock it up and forget about it and
[00:53:34.240] next thing i know
[00:53:35.119] you know the buyer comes along and uh
[00:53:38.400] you know the rest is history um
[00:53:41.680] so the on the ranch you had so many
[00:53:43.839] different kinds of phenomena you had
[00:53:45.440] ufos
[00:53:46.319] you had cattle mutilations you had
[00:53:48.079] trickster activity the bulls in the
[00:53:49.839] trailer that kind of thing
[00:53:51.119] um you had you know creatures of
[00:53:53.599] different kinds
[00:53:54.960] uh things that would take over people's
[00:53:57.200] minds the tunnel of light
[00:53:59.839] was it all the same bigfoot i mean was
[00:54:02.160] it all the same phenomena in different
[00:54:03.760] forms or was it
[00:54:05.119] like a crossroads for a bunch of
[00:54:06.960] different things
[00:54:10.480] but you got me i don't know i mean we
[00:54:12.800] had fabulous conversations with
[00:54:15.200] deputy sheriffs that had unbelievable
[00:54:17.839] encounters
[00:54:18.720] that they saw things i mean just here
[00:54:20.880] you know they were they're they're
[00:54:23.119] county officials and city officials and
[00:54:26.160] and um some really great
[00:54:29.280] great people that um uh
[00:54:33.119] like frank salisbury as a researcher did
[00:54:35.599] such a great job and his book is
[00:54:38.079] is a terrific book um
[00:54:41.440] so many so many things happen that in
[00:54:43.200] the uena basin in general
[00:54:45.520] and then specifically on certain ranches
[00:54:47.520] and even more specifically
[00:54:49.119] on the skinwalker ranch but all kinds of
[00:54:52.480] events and activities happened in broad
[00:54:54.400] daylight or at night time
[00:54:56.160] at all kinds of places throughout that
[00:54:57.920] whole area
[00:54:59.280] and the police were were very aware
[00:55:02.640] of these things and they had terrific
[00:55:04.640] encounters of their own
[00:55:06.319] and we were told a lot of these stories
[00:55:08.000] we interviewed a lot of people
[00:55:10.000] you know in the area as researchers so
[00:55:12.799] that we had a good idea of what other
[00:55:14.799] ranchers were
[00:55:15.599] encountering was it just us no it wasn't
[00:55:18.799] just
[00:55:19.200] us it wasn't just this 480 acres on the
[00:55:22.400] skinwalker ranch
[00:55:24.240] it was peripheral to that ranch as well
[00:55:27.520] things were happening all over the place
[00:55:30.079] i mean some really
[00:55:31.280] i mean if you thought that it was the
[00:55:34.319] the events on the skinwalker ranch were
[00:55:36.480] wild ass events
[00:55:37.920] oh no just go to the next ranch right
[00:55:40.480] next door
[00:55:41.440] and listen to their stories and you want
[00:55:43.520] to hear some really bizarre ones
[00:55:45.200] i'm thinking of them right now you know
[00:55:47.440] to our neighbors there
[00:55:48.880] uh i think it was the garcia yeah i
[00:55:50.960] wasn't going to say that
[00:55:51.920] but anyway yeah okay so it's out but
[00:55:54.160] anyway yeah
[00:55:55.200] them i mean they they had some
[00:55:57.119] incredible kinds of stuff
[00:55:58.799] happen and and and kinds of uh
[00:56:02.400] scary spooky well yeah because it's not
[00:56:05.599] like your everyday
[00:56:06.799] drive on the freeway you know to you
[00:56:09.440] know that um
[00:56:11.040] so um yeah there was a
[00:56:14.400] the menu never seemed to stop and
[00:56:17.599] it was it was kind of funny in that the
[00:56:20.400] same exact event
[00:56:22.400] usually did not ever happen and that
[00:56:24.079] that that was a rarity
[00:56:25.760] you know that you could have the same
[00:56:27.760] kind of thing repeat itself so that you
[00:56:30.400] could set up
[00:56:33.280] methods to be able to equate and
[00:56:35.680] evaluate
[00:56:36.559] so you could repeat it right that's what
[00:56:39.040] you want to do
[00:56:40.079] in a laboratory is have repetition right
[00:56:43.040] and and be able to
[00:56:44.079] to control and have a have have
[00:56:47.040] something else that's a
[00:56:48.400] that's a control sample and something
[00:56:50.079] else here that that isn't and
[00:56:52.240] not there no no it made it very
[00:56:55.599] ever figure out why there i mean does it
[00:56:57.760] have something to do with the proximity
[00:56:59.200] to the native americans who were kind of
[00:57:01.200] spooked about the place
[00:57:02.319] yeah but but the american indian's been
[00:57:05.200] all over this
[00:57:05.839] this country and um uh
[00:57:09.040] and and and and strange things have
[00:57:11.440] happened all
[00:57:12.079] over the place but you can't say
[00:57:13.520] necessarily that that you can
[00:57:15.440] you you can uh ascribe this to to uh
[00:57:19.599] uh people that were
[00:57:22.640] indigenous to the area historically or
[00:57:25.040] is it geology
[00:57:26.160] or or because of of fossils there
[00:57:29.839] nobody knows it's looked at all that
[00:57:31.599] stuff well anybody it's anybody's guess
[00:57:33.920] as good as anybody else's guess is what
[00:57:35.920] it boils down to by the way
[00:57:37.520] i'm 132nd cherokee so that's probably
[00:57:40.480] for what it's worth uh before we leave
[00:57:42.160] this though
[00:57:42.720] the the incidents that happened to you
[00:57:44.960] to your wife to column
[00:57:46.640] to me the you know you bring it home
[00:57:50.000] um how does everybody handle that i mean
[00:57:53.040] is it
[00:57:54.079] spooky at the time and do you draw the
[00:57:55.599] connection that it's ranch related
[00:58:01.040] yes and no if the events
[00:58:05.280] hadn't happened very often prior to the
[00:58:07.359] ranch
[00:58:08.480] then it's not ranch connected but they
[00:58:10.720] did happen
[00:58:12.880] and they did where we lived with my wife
[00:58:15.520] and i we had a
[00:58:17.119] poltergeist event one time that was
[00:58:19.440] really fun
[00:58:20.400] and and very different and that was
[00:58:22.960] before i ever acquired the ranch
[00:58:25.200] my my wife was a was a very strong
[00:58:29.280] and probably still is in spirit person
[00:58:33.280] and so she took them in stride she had a
[00:58:35.359] full manifestation of a
[00:58:37.520] apparition a human form apparition in
[00:58:41.119] in the bedroom and looking at her
[00:58:44.559] and uh this was this was a holy cow
[00:58:48.720] and she happened to tell me kind of like
[00:58:50.960] oh well
[00:58:51.760] um this is why you were gone this is
[00:58:53.839] this is what happened
[00:58:55.599] here a manifestation of this i've heard
[00:58:58.480] this
[00:58:59.440] this kind of thing many times through
[00:59:01.440] other people and um
[00:59:06.079] and recently and
[00:59:10.480] and she felt the bed depressed as there
[00:59:13.280] was a curiosity
[00:59:14.720] going on because of the facial features
[00:59:17.200] were distinctive enough
[00:59:18.799] to be able to to the as though who are
[00:59:21.760] you
[00:59:22.559] and what are you doing here coming from
[00:59:25.520] the manifestation from the apparition
[00:59:27.760] looking at her all right and and
[00:59:31.760] torso up was kind of what was manifested
[00:59:34.480] and being able to see
[00:59:35.760] and feel the the mattress being
[00:59:37.599] depressed as
[00:59:39.119] is is looking at you wondering
[00:59:42.720] who are you that kind of looked on the
[00:59:44.559] face what are you
[00:59:46.000] doing here you know when usually you
[00:59:48.079] think of the opposite direction
[00:59:49.839] yeah who the hell are you was she
[00:59:51.440] freaked out no
[00:59:53.920] no she wasn't she would she would have a
[00:59:56.640] there was a bar of light
[00:59:58.160] so this was not normal in the
[01:00:02.319] in the survival research but maybe in
[01:00:05.599] the e.t
[01:00:06.319] that was between her pillows a bar of
[01:00:08.799] light
[01:00:09.440] wasn't coming in from shutters or blinds
[01:00:11.839] or anything from the room or any kind of
[01:00:13.440] other light source
[01:00:15.760] you could you could cover put the
[01:00:17.440] pillows down and the bar would not be
[01:00:19.520] reflected on the surface of the of the
[01:00:21.280] object above it on the second pillow
[01:00:23.680] it only happened when you did this and
[01:00:26.400] she did that and said oh well and then
[01:00:28.640] she said i said well what did you do
[01:00:31.280] well i went to sleep
[01:00:34.880] went to sleep so
[01:00:43.599] you