Area52 episode 100 - Richard Doty

• Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-3CmY_ztwo
• Title: "They Recorded This Alien Encounter - Richard Doty | ep. 100"
• Channel: Area52
• Published: 2026-08-21
• Duration: 3:57:32
• Participants: Chris Ramsay and Richard Doty
• Extraction: complete English auto-generated YouTube captions retrieved with youtube_transcript.py --timestamps, 2026-08-30
• Fidelity note: automated captions may contain errors, especially in names, acronyms, and overlapping speech
• Analysis: ../../sources/doty-afosi-disinformation; ../../sources/gerb-uap-open-source-researcher

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[00:00:11.790] [music]
[00:00:19.520] The one thing that convinced me beyond
[00:00:23.760] anything else that I had access to was
[00:00:26.480] listening to this Air Force sergeant.
[00:00:29.840] female who was abducted countless
[00:00:32.099] [music]
[00:00:32.640] times, went through literally torture by
[00:00:35.360] these extraterrestrials, having marks on
[00:00:37.840] her hands. They took her fingernails
[00:00:40.160] off, her toenails off, bleeding from the
[00:00:42.399] eye, ruptured her eard drum once, and
[00:00:45.680] then the a lot of things that we did
[00:00:49.125] [music] in a surveillance
[00:00:51.520] capacity
[00:00:53.120] to confirm what she says. That convinced
[00:00:56.719] me that there are
[00:00:59.039] They they weren't humans doing this to
[00:01:01.680] her.
[00:01:02.000] >> You surveiled it?
[00:01:04.400] >> We set up a surveillance
[00:01:07.280] and that's about all I can say. She uh
[00:01:11.200] lived in a two-story real small
[00:01:13.520] apartment and she her bedroom was
[00:01:15.439] upstairs and we knew
[00:01:18.880] uh that she would be taken uh during a
[00:01:22.400] time period.
[00:01:24.240] So this is a multi-pronged, multiaceted,
[00:01:27.680] multi-ep [music] departmented
[00:01:30.240] sting operation
[00:01:32.159] in order to capture this. Yes, that was
[00:01:36.240] successful. There were some that
[00:01:37.759] weren't, but that was what was
[00:01:39.439] successful. That's a fact. And she's a
[00:01:41.520] whistleblower, and she would be the
[00:01:44.640] number one [music] person I would put in
[00:01:47.280] front of a camera if I was a member of
[00:01:50.640] Congress.
[00:01:51.759] >> Whoa. a mentality regarding they can't
[00:01:55.840] be hostile, they're all benevolent is
[00:01:59.119] absolutely out the window.
[00:02:01.920] Are they on here?
[00:02:03.920] >> Yeah, they're on there.
[00:02:05.920] >> I'm going to show you something.
[00:02:09.360] Okay.
[00:02:11.656] [music]
[00:02:14.239] Wow.
[00:02:16.000] Does that look like something you've
[00:02:17.040] seen before?
[00:02:18.560] >> I can't say.
[00:02:20.319] >> I think he just did.
[00:02:26.080] I've had several strange experiences in
[00:02:28.160] my life potentially related to ET
[00:02:30.160] phenomena, but this story is in regards
[00:02:32.560] to levitation. When I was 9 or 10 years
[00:02:35.280] old, I was walking home from a friend's
[00:02:37.120] house. As I would [music] sometimes do,
[00:02:39.280] I decided to run as fast as I could and
[00:02:41.440] jump as far as I could. I did two jumps,
[00:02:44.400] both [music] of which I measured from
[00:02:45.840] where I landed back to the stop sign.
[00:02:48.160] That was my jumping off point. They were
[00:02:50.239] maybe 5 to 10 ft. I decided to do one
[00:02:53.360] more, went back a ways, and ran towards
[00:02:55.680] the stop sign. As I jumped, I suddenly
[00:02:58.720] became aware that the air seemed very
[00:03:00.800] silent. I also had a strong experience
[00:03:04.239] of weightlessness and [music] extreme
[00:03:06.800] forward momentum, more than the last two
[00:03:10.000] jumps. I came down at a dead stop on
[00:03:12.959] both feet, feeling almost zero
[00:03:15.280] gravitational influence. Tracing my
[00:03:17.812] [music] steps back to the stop sign, I
[00:03:20.000] counted over 30 steps. Within moments, I
[00:03:23.120] heard crickets, cars in the distance,
[00:03:25.200] lawn sprinklers, all of which had faded
[00:03:27.760] away while I was in the [music] air. I
[00:03:30.319] tried hundreds and hundreds more times.
[00:03:32.239] I never even came close to the same
[00:03:34.239] distance. And it wasn't a dream because
[00:03:38.239] I told my mom when I got home. She
[00:03:40.799] didn't believe me, [music] but
[00:03:42.000] remembered me telling her when I asked
[00:03:44.000] about it later. I don't know. It's a big
[00:03:47.120] weird world.
[00:03:48.560] >> Ladies and gentlemen, today we are
[00:03:49.920] joined by none other than Richard Dodie,
[00:03:52.000] former AFOSI officer.
[00:03:55.360] Um, you've got quite the history, good
[00:03:58.879] sir. You've got a lot um in your past in
[00:04:02.560] terms of euphology and your relationship
[00:04:05.120] to it, whether it's in a formal capacity
[00:04:07.760] or an informal capacity, whether that's
[00:04:11.200] uh a hobby or a job. uh your name is
[00:04:14.400] pretty uh you know I would say pretty
[00:04:18.079] prominent in this topic. Uh so I first
[00:04:21.359] of all want to thank you for joining me
[00:04:22.560] today.
[00:04:23.120] >> Thank you. Good to be here Chris.
[00:04:24.479] >> Yeah. Um
[00:04:26.720] for those people out there uh wondering
[00:04:30.080] you know who I'm sitting with, they they
[00:04:31.520] might be familiar with you. They might
[00:04:32.639] have seen your face somewhere. Whether
[00:04:34.000] that's Ancient Aliens, whether that's a
[00:04:35.919] Netflix documentary or um even some
[00:04:38.880] other documentaries that have come out
[00:04:40.240] in the past. Um, you're a recognizable
[00:04:44.400] figure to those of us who who know uh
[00:04:47.840] about the UFO topic. Uh, but to those
[00:04:50.400] who don't, how would you introduce
[00:04:52.240] yourself?
[00:04:54.080] Well, I I'm a former Air Force OSI
[00:04:56.880] special agent, counter intelligence
[00:04:58.720] officer within the Air Force Office of
[00:05:00.800] Special Investigations and um I started
[00:05:04.639] that career back in the 70s.
[00:05:08.000] uh worked in uh some controversial
[00:05:11.440] issues uh primarily the Paul Benowitz
[00:05:14.479] case. A lot of the um UFO historians
[00:05:19.600] uh know about that case uh whether they
[00:05:23.759] want to uh criticize me for it uh for
[00:05:26.960] what I did in it, but I did it in
[00:05:29.280] accordance with uh military regulations
[00:05:32.479] and uh I worked in the intelligence
[00:05:36.160] community up till 1988.
[00:05:38.400] From there I left uh the government
[00:05:40.880] service. Uh I worked for the state of
[00:05:44.160] New Mexico for a while and then I worked
[00:05:45.840] for Dr. Putoff uh at the Institute for
[00:05:48.320] Advanced Studies for 12 years
[00:05:51.360] and then sometime in the um mid
[00:05:55.360] uh probably 2010 or 2015 I started uh
[00:05:59.360] coming on programs and um talking about
[00:06:03.120] what I did during my time in counter
[00:06:05.840] intelligence.
[00:06:07.600] And then uh in 2018 I was hired by a
[00:06:10.800] Gaia and I have over 220
[00:06:14.560] episodes on Gaia. I also have about 18
[00:06:19.440] episodes of the Dodie Chronicles.
[00:06:22.160] Uh I've been on uh Ancient Aliens, a
[00:06:25.759] number of different other UFO programs
[00:06:28.720] uh talking about my past experience in
[00:06:30.960] the subject of UFOs or investigating
[00:06:33.840] them. So that's who I am and that's what
[00:06:37.120] I've done in the past.
[00:06:38.560] >> Thank you so much for that. Uh
[00:06:41.199] incredible pedigree. Um there's there's
[00:06:43.280] a lot there. There's a really colorful
[00:06:46.800] history um across these last I would say
[00:06:50.160] almost 40 years.
[00:06:52.960] Um
[00:06:54.880] you I I want to start somewhere because
[00:06:58.720] we had a guest on recently, Mario Woods,
[00:07:01.199] who you're familiar with. um who you've
[00:07:03.680] actually met for the first time in 1977.
[00:07:06.800] >> Yes.
[00:07:07.199] >> Um you know, and it wouldn't be until
[00:07:09.280] decades later uh that that would be
[00:07:11.680] brought up again. And Mario was a guest
[00:07:13.759] here just a few short weeks ago and we
[00:07:16.479] actually tried to get you and Mario
[00:07:18.000] together and it didn't work out timing
[00:07:20.000] wise. Um, but Mario had a really
[00:07:23.440] interesting
[00:07:25.199] um
[00:07:26.720] encounter to say the least, not only
[00:07:28.960] with uh what appeared to be a giant
[00:07:31.039] craft, uh, but also the beings aboard
[00:07:33.520] that craft and then afterwards was
[00:07:36.240] subsequently debriefed for like 5 hours
[00:07:39.120] and interrogated and he had to, you
[00:07:41.440] know, write down exactly what happened
[00:07:43.360] and all of this. But during that
[00:07:44.720] process, there was a sort of medical
[00:07:47.280] exam or sort of physical examination
[00:07:49.120] that took place. I OSI officers uh
[00:07:53.280] namely uh yourself and someone else and
[00:07:57.360] you if I'm not mistaken were that you
[00:07:59.680] were just coming into that sort of space
[00:08:02.639] uh if I'm not mistaken that would have
[00:08:04.160] been quite new for you.
[00:08:05.840] >> Yes, I was on a temporary assignment to
[00:08:08.319] Ellsworth Air Force Base and something
[00:08:10.960] entirely different. It was a espionage
[00:08:13.120] investigation
[00:08:14.639] and while I was at the OSI office, uh
[00:08:18.000] Mario, the incident with Mario occurred
[00:08:22.479] and I was asked by the chief uh of the
[00:08:28.080] detachment commander at uh Ellsworth, uh
[00:08:32.159] a guy by the name of John Bris Boy, uh
[00:08:34.880] to go to the base hospital and pick up
[00:08:38.000] records uh for a Mario Woods, Sergeant
[00:08:41.440] Mario Wood. So, I did I went there. I
[00:08:43.360] brought him back. Uh when I brought him
[00:08:45.839] back to the OSI office, Mario was there.
[00:08:49.200] I walked into the interview room to give
[00:08:52.880] uh the the medical files to uh Jack
[00:08:56.000] Green, who was the OSI agent
[00:08:58.160] investigating this incident. And um I
[00:09:01.920] stood there in the room uh while they
[00:09:04.800] were talking to uh Mario. Before this, I
[00:09:09.040] had no idea what the incident occurred,
[00:09:12.240] but I as I listened to this, I I became
[00:09:15.600] more intrigued by it. And so
[00:09:19.920] I was I I probably stayed in there 40 45
[00:09:23.440] minutes or so. I don't know exact time.
[00:09:25.200] I left and I had to do some other
[00:09:27.440] things. Then I had to go and do what I
[00:09:29.839] was there to do. But I came back and
[00:09:32.560] they still had Mario in there. Now my
[00:09:35.600] timeline uh I think it would have been
[00:09:38.480] probably about 10 hours of in
[00:09:40.720] interrogation.
[00:09:41.600] >> Oh wow.
[00:09:42.320] >> Rather than the four or five uh because
[00:09:44.399] when I came back now there might have
[00:09:45.760] been a break in between but they were
[00:09:48.160] still uh going after I mean they weren't
[00:09:50.320] going after him but they were
[00:09:51.440] interrogating.
[00:09:53.040] Uh there's a difference uh real quickly
[00:09:55.360] uh in um in counter intelligence or in
[00:09:58.959] any any uh type of investigation whether
[00:10:01.600] it's criminal or or espionage or or
[00:10:04.720] anything else. You you interview you can
[00:10:07.360] be doing an interview or you can be
[00:10:09.680] doing an interrogation. They're they're
[00:10:11.440] different. An interview is just
[00:10:13.519] obtaining the information uh relaxing
[00:10:16.800] the uh target the person that you're
[00:10:18.880] interviewing. Interrogating is you're
[00:10:22.160] trying to force that person to give you
[00:10:25.120] information that they don't want to give
[00:10:26.640] you
[00:10:27.519] >> or they might not remember it. And when
[00:10:31.600] I the second time I went there, they
[00:10:33.760] were interrogating
[00:10:35.519] Mario.
[00:10:36.160] >> They were grilling him.
[00:10:36.959] >> They were grilling him on what he did or
[00:10:39.279] what he saw. And apparently at some
[00:10:42.560] other time they had the second uh Air
[00:10:45.839] Force security policeman who was with
[00:10:47.839] Mario because there was two of them in
[00:10:49.600] the pickup truck and they had him in
[00:10:51.839] another room. I never went in that other
[00:10:53.920] room so I'm not sure what they did or
[00:10:56.240] how they interviewed him but I I saw
[00:10:59.200] them interrogating Mario and based on
[00:11:02.959] what I remember then and then jump ahead
[00:11:06.560] you know 40ome years. Um what Mario said
[00:11:12.959] and what happened is is factual factual
[00:11:16.160] because the OSI report later which was
[00:11:18.480] classified
[00:11:20.079] uh considered it an actual incident. So
[00:11:23.040] >> really
[00:11:23.839] >> yeah that
[00:11:24.880] >> you you had access to that obviously.
[00:11:26.240] >> I had access to that. Yeah. And I've had
[00:11:28.720] conversations with Mario. I've been on
[00:11:30.720] some other podcasts with him and I I
[00:11:33.040] believe everything he says. Um he might
[00:11:35.839] have um got some things um
[00:11:39.839] uh or not wrong but he might have
[00:11:42.079] forgotten some things because there was
[00:11:44.240] a time period that he uh might have had
[00:11:48.560] a uh missing time link in in when the
[00:11:52.640] incident first happened.
[00:11:53.920] >> Six hours.
[00:11:54.560] >> Yeah, exactly. I thought it was more
[00:11:56.560] than that, but it was six hours. And so
[00:11:59.680] what happened during that time peri you
[00:12:01.279] know only the aliens know.
[00:12:03.200] >> Yeah. Sure. Yeah.
[00:12:04.720] >> Yeah. Them and u you know perhaps
[00:12:06.639] Michael Johnson as well. Who did you
[00:12:09.279] meet with him? Were you debriefing him
[00:12:11.519] as well? Were they interrogating Michael
[00:12:13.040] Johnson at the same time?
[00:12:14.160] >> Michael Johnson was in another room. I
[00:12:16.560] never had access to Michael Johnson.
[00:12:18.079] >> He was pro at that point. He was like
[00:12:19.440] catatonic as well. He wasn't really
[00:12:22.160] >> Well, as as I understood, he had been in
[00:12:24.480] the hospital. He had they had
[00:12:26.399] transferred somebody went over. That
[00:12:28.160] wasn't me. Somebody went to the base
[00:12:30.320] hospital and picked him up and brought
[00:12:32.720] him to the OSI office. I I I don't know
[00:12:35.279] if it was an agent or the ambulance or
[00:12:37.839] or I think I think it might have been
[00:12:40.079] their supervisor, the security police,
[00:12:42.160] the 44th missile security squadron was
[00:12:45.279] in and I think it was somebody within
[00:12:47.600] that uh squadron, a captain or somebody
[00:12:50.240] brought him there. But again, I didn't
[00:12:52.800] have any uh contact with Michael
[00:12:55.040] Johnson, only Mario.
[00:12:57.200] And during this time, Mario had also
[00:13:00.000] said that he was um in and I believe if
[00:13:04.320] I'm not mistaken, this was done by the
[00:13:05.920] OSI officer, that they felt around his
[00:13:08.800] mouth.
[00:13:11.040] Do you remember him saying this?
[00:13:12.639] >> Yes.
[00:13:13.440] >> And that they were looking for something
[00:13:15.360] in his mouth. They spent a substantial
[00:13:17.040] amount of time, several minutes, feeling
[00:13:19.279] around the inside of his mouth. Can you
[00:13:21.440] tell me why that is?
[00:13:24.349] >> [clears throat]
[00:13:24.560] >> As I understood, he had when he was
[00:13:27.680] examined
[00:13:29.279] at the base hospital,
[00:13:31.040] >> he was examined first by uh the
[00:13:33.440] emergency room physician who I I don't
[00:13:36.399] remember what his specialty was, but
[00:13:38.480] normally it's just a general
[00:13:40.160] practitioner and then um
[00:13:44.160] he said something to them at the
[00:13:46.240] hospital that OSI was interested in of
[00:13:48.480] of what his voice how his voice changed.
[00:13:51.680] And I think that's why again I I wasn't
[00:13:55.279] there and I can't say for a fact but I
[00:13:58.480] believe they thought he might have had
[00:14:00.079] something implanted into his mouth or
[00:14:02.560] his throat and that's why they checked
[00:14:05.120] it first at the emergency room and I
[00:14:07.839] believe later there was a uh maybe a
[00:14:10.880] specialist I ears and throat doctor that
[00:14:13.760] that saw him but the OSI office they
[00:14:17.199] were looking for something in his throat
[00:14:19.360] that might have been implanted in there
[00:14:21.360] That's the That's what I got out of it.
[00:14:23.680] >> Implanted by whom?
[00:14:25.600] >> By whoever took him. Maybe the
[00:14:27.839] extraterrestrials. I I I don't know. But
[00:14:29.440] >> is that part for the course? Is that
[00:14:31.279] something that they've run into before?
[00:14:33.920] That's why they were checking it out.
[00:14:36.639] >> Uh
[00:14:38.320] now, let me go back a little bit.
[00:14:40.639] >> Sure.
[00:14:41.920] >> During this time period, I was not
[00:14:43.600] briefed into any special programs.
[00:14:45.440] >> No, this is before.
[00:14:46.639] >> This is way before. Two years before. So
[00:14:49.440] I I had no idea about any of this about
[00:14:52.959] uh abductions or about uh implants or
[00:14:55.440] anything like that.
[00:14:57.040] Uh years later when I was all was when I
[00:14:59.519] was briefed into everything, I I
[00:15:01.760] realized that the extraterrestrials
[00:15:04.240] in in order there were occasions uh
[00:15:07.680] where or incidents
[00:15:10.240] uh where they had placed something in
[00:15:13.360] the the body, the mouth, the throat, the
[00:15:16.480] nose
[00:15:18.079] uh in order for the extraterrestrials to
[00:15:21.839] better communicate with the human. Now,
[00:15:24.880] I don't know how that worked. Uh there
[00:15:26.800] are specialists uh Dr. Green and and
[00:15:29.760] others uh can can explain that. I'm not
[00:15:31.839] a doctor, so I can't explain uh why or
[00:15:34.880] how they did that or or but I know that
[00:15:37.360] there were um at least two cases that I
[00:15:41.040] know of. A woman uh that had had an
[00:15:44.800] abduction, an Air Force, a sergeant, she
[00:15:47.279] was in the Air Force. She was uh
[00:15:49.680] abducted and they had placed something
[00:15:51.519] under her tongue. And this was done
[00:15:54.639] during your time.
[00:15:57.759] Yes.
[00:15:58.000] >> Do we have her name or is that
[00:15:59.279] currently?
[00:15:59.759] >> Uh that's that's pretty much classified.
[00:16:01.920] She's she's a whistleblower right now uh
[00:16:04.800] listed in in in in Congress. So she if
[00:16:08.560] she comes out and speaks um
[00:16:10.639] >> Well, no. Yeah. And there's going to be
[00:16:12.560] a u um an awakening so to speak in uh
[00:16:19.120] the difference between a friendly
[00:16:21.680] extraterrestrial
[00:16:23.199] and a non-friendly extraterrestrial. Uh
[00:16:26.320] because she went through the horrors of
[00:16:29.440] abductions from an hostile
[00:16:31.759] extraterrestrial.
[00:16:33.199] >> Really
[00:16:35.120] is. Do you think that that is I want to
[00:16:37.600] talk more about this a little bit later,
[00:16:38.800] but do you think that that is perhaps
[00:16:42.240] her perception due to this forceful sort
[00:16:44.880] of kidnapping uh that one would
[00:16:48.880] make uh a being who might be neutral
[00:16:53.680] seem sort of more malevolent uh because
[00:16:56.720] of the nature of you know we're looking
[00:16:59.199] at something from another world looks
[00:17:01.680] menacing. you know, they're perhaps
[00:17:04.480] pinning her down. Like, we don't know
[00:17:05.839] the real reason why this would happen.
[00:17:08.799] Do you think that there's a Because when
[00:17:11.199] someone says hostile
[00:17:13.679] um but then has a chip implanted and is
[00:17:16.000] let go,
[00:17:18.160] you know, like we are also hostile to
[00:17:20.720] dolphins,
[00:17:22.319] but that doesn't mean we want to kill
[00:17:23.679] the dolphins and take over the dolphin
[00:17:25.439] world and like, you know, you know what
[00:17:27.039] I mean? And so, do you think that might
[00:17:29.039] just be her interpretation of the event?
[00:17:32.480] It could very well be because number
[00:17:34.640] one, we have no idea
[00:17:38.160] uh what these extraterrestrials
[00:17:40.880] uh intent is in abducting a human being
[00:17:44.880] uh to get information or to get DNA or
[00:17:48.240] to get samples of their their fluids or
[00:17:51.200] or whatever. So, um they're alien to us
[00:17:56.000] and we're alien to them.
[00:17:58.720] uh they might have to use techniques
[00:18:01.039] that we can't even imagine to get
[00:18:03.280] information from a human. And so you're
[00:18:06.160] right that that could very well be uh
[00:18:08.880] that's just the way they operate.
[00:18:10.640] >> Mhm.
[00:18:11.360] >> Now she she's alive. They didn't kill
[00:18:14.320] her. Uh she's recovered.
[00:18:17.440] Um
[00:18:18.960] but so but the her case what stands out
[00:18:24.240] to me is her case has been uh thoroughly
[00:18:28.640] I mean thoroughly thoroughly
[00:18:30.720] investigated
[00:18:32.320] by the government not just AFOSI but by
[00:18:36.880] other agencies within the government.
[00:18:38.799] >> What other agencies?
[00:18:40.080] >> Uh the intelligence community. I'll just
[00:18:42.320] leave it at that. There were techniques
[00:18:46.720] because of her abductions. There were
[00:18:48.799] techniques developed
[00:18:51.679] from her abductions that were collected
[00:18:54.320] by US intelligence that I can't talk
[00:18:56.320] about that can prove her case. Wait, so
[00:19:00.640] there are certain things that happened
[00:19:02.400] to her that they now use to see if other
[00:19:05.919] cases are legitimate?
[00:19:07.120] >> Absolutely.
[00:19:08.480] >> Does that have to do with like physical
[00:19:10.160] mark markings?
[00:19:12.720] Yes, that and some um trace um traits
[00:19:19.039] that um the I got to be very careful
[00:19:22.880] here. The traits that the abductee
[00:19:26.400] um shows
[00:19:28.480] that can be traced to something else
[00:19:32.320] and and based on that there was
[00:19:34.640] something developed by the intelligence
[00:19:37.840] community.
[00:19:39.440] to number one determine whether the
[00:19:41.840] person is actually telling the truth and
[00:19:44.559] number two uh and the counterpart of
[00:19:47.360] that is protecting the the target and
[00:19:51.200] that was developed years later. It
[00:19:52.799] wasn't developed during her time, but
[00:19:54.480] based on what she went through, uh the
[00:19:57.919] intelligence community and uh
[00:20:00.080] contractors
[00:20:02.000] uh developed something that can protect
[00:20:05.039] a human from a particular type of
[00:20:08.080] abduction from a particular
[00:20:09.600] extraterrestrials. Now you got to
[00:20:11.200] understand this.
[00:20:13.600] We one of the main problems uh the
[00:20:16.160] public has uh is uh that they group all
[00:20:21.200] extraterrestrials into one group, one
[00:20:23.600] one one category. You can't do that. Um
[00:20:28.080] during my time I knew of and I have them
[00:20:30.400] here a list of them of of of um the
[00:20:34.640] extraterrestrials that um we knew
[00:20:37.440] existed that we had contact with. Okay.
[00:20:41.039] And um
[00:20:43.760] and so they're all different. Number
[00:20:46.159] one, they're all different bi biologics.
[00:20:49.840] They come from different planets.
[00:20:52.559] Their body structures are entirely
[00:20:54.880] different.
[00:20:56.400] So you can't group their brains are
[00:20:58.640] different. So you can't group all
[00:21:00.799] extraterrestrials into one category.
[00:21:03.200] That's why when you uh when we talking
[00:21:05.520] about an abduction of of of a of a human
[00:21:08.559] by an extraterrestrial,
[00:21:11.120] it depends on what extraterrestrials
[00:21:13.360] doing that and what they're gathering
[00:21:15.440] and and and how they're doing it and
[00:21:18.080] what type of thoughts or what type of
[00:21:20.720] type of techniques or or uh gadgets
[00:21:23.919] they're putting into those those humans.
[00:21:27.120] >> So when the government creates something
[00:21:31.679] a counter to counter it there. It's only
[00:21:35.520] going to work on that particular
[00:21:37.440] extraterrestrial. It's not going to work
[00:21:39.360] on anyone else. Then again, um I can't
[00:21:43.200] go into great details because I kne I
[00:21:45.760] knew some more information about this,
[00:21:47.919] but there lot
[00:21:49.440] >> of like other species.
[00:21:50.559] >> Yeah, other species. And a lot has been
[00:21:52.799] developed beyond my time. And I I don't
[00:21:56.159] want to go into anything uh that might
[00:21:59.200] uh disclose something I'm not supposed
[00:22:01.280] to talk about. So, I'll just leave it at
[00:22:02.880] that.
[00:22:03.360] >> Sure. I mean, super interesting that
[00:22:05.280] there's protocol on a sort of
[00:22:07.679] anti-abduction
[00:22:09.440] uh process. Um, well, when I was working
[00:22:13.360] on uh MNA Hansen case and and you know
[00:22:17.679] who MNA Hansen is, that's part of the
[00:22:19.919] Paul Benitz case.
[00:22:21.679] >> Uh, when when um Leo Sprinkle and Alan
[00:22:25.120] Heinik brought her to us, I had no idea
[00:22:29.200] anything about abductions. I didn't know
[00:22:31.120] that they were real. I I I wasn't ever
[00:22:33.600] briefed into it. I did a report and sent
[00:22:36.400] it to headquarters and a week or so
[00:22:39.280] later, two DIA agents came down to
[00:22:43.679] Kirtland to the OSI office. I was told
[00:22:46.480] that, hey, I two visitors out here want
[00:22:49.120] to see me. You know, they were cleared.
[00:22:50.799] I brought him in. They said, yeah, we
[00:22:53.039] want to talk about the MNA Hansen case.
[00:22:54.640] And I said, okay. I said, who are you
[00:22:56.400] guy? What what branch are you with? And
[00:22:58.720] he one of them tells me we're with this
[00:23:01.520] particular branch. I said what does that
[00:23:03.679] involve? He said abductions. We
[00:23:05.360] investigate abductions. And I said the
[00:23:08.240] DIA has a branch that investigates alien
[00:23:11.440] abductions. He said yeah. The DIA.
[00:23:16.640] So I knew then. He said, "You mean
[00:23:20.080] you're not briefed into this particular
[00:23:22.320] special access program?" I said, "No."
[00:23:25.120] Well, I got briefed into it and then I
[00:23:27.520] realized that uh this has been going on
[00:23:30.320] for years. They take it very seriously.
[00:23:32.240] >> This is 1980 and these guys are taking
[00:23:35.200] it seriously and this unit within DIA
[00:23:38.640] has been around
[00:23:41.360] for for years now. DIA remember only
[00:23:44.400] came in existence in 1961. So, I thought
[00:23:48.159] I didn't say anything to them, but it
[00:23:51.679] piqued my curiosity as wait a minute,
[00:23:54.240] these things must be real then,
[00:23:56.320] >> cuz I didn't think that Ma I mean, I
[00:23:58.400] interviewed MNA Hansen, but
[00:24:00.960] >> I just thought she was some she was
[00:24:03.280] psychologically unstable or something.
[00:24:05.120] Sure. I mean, the DIA is also known to
[00:24:07.280] be involved in like a lot of trippy
[00:24:09.039] subjects, including Stargate, including,
[00:24:11.279] you know, taking on all of the uh the
[00:24:13.760] work at SRRI that they were doing and
[00:24:15.440] and and that type of thing. Do you think
[00:24:17.279] that
[00:24:19.120] a lot of that is still within the DIA
[00:24:21.600] specifically, or is that been also sort
[00:24:24.000] of branched out into contractor hands?
[00:24:28.480] I think that's it's being still
[00:24:31.120] controlled by DIA,
[00:24:34.159] but I feel that uh it's been contracted
[00:24:37.279] out.
[00:24:37.919] >> Yeah. Mo most things have been I would
[00:24:39.760] assume.
[00:24:40.159] >> Yes.
[00:24:40.640] >> For you know to remove yourself for any
[00:24:42.960] plausible deniability that the
[00:24:45.120] government might want or should want in
[00:24:46.960] these uh scenarios. Um which does bring
[00:24:51.120] a question to mind as well. So when you
[00:24:53.919] were when you were working on the Paul
[00:24:56.720] Benowitz uh case,
[00:25:00.240] um
[00:25:03.200] first of all, the decision to
[00:25:06.400] uh sort of implement misinformation or
[00:25:09.200] inject information in a counter
[00:25:12.080] intelligence capacity uh due to you know
[00:25:15.279] seeing uh advanced tech and and and
[00:25:18.080] covering that up. Uh,
[00:25:20.960] how was that decision given to you? Were
[00:25:24.720] you brought in a room and briefed? Were
[00:25:26.559] you given uh was this in writing? Was
[00:25:28.880] this verbally? How was that given to you
[00:25:31.360] to to take care of this?
[00:25:33.200] >> Anytime there's an operation or a
[00:25:35.600] project within uh OSI or intelligence
[00:25:38.400] community, there has to be an
[00:25:40.080] operational plan.
[00:25:42.159] When the case first opened, the Paul
[00:25:44.880] Benwitz case first opened, uh I would do
[00:25:47.760] a report and send it to headquarters and
[00:25:50.559] it would go through CIA to DIA and then
[00:25:54.320] uh they would send back uh uh a
[00:25:58.080] operations plan or
[00:26:01.120] a um a list of things that I need to do
[00:26:04.640] to prepare an operations plan or to get
[00:26:07.760] more information. And in particular Paul
[00:26:10.080] Binua's case, they sent back and saying,
[00:26:12.080] "You need to do this, this, this, this,
[00:26:13.600] and this."
[00:26:14.240] >> And what was this, this, this, and this?
[00:26:16.080] >> Go out and get more information on him.
[00:26:18.320] Uh, find out uh neighbors, uh, do a what
[00:26:22.799] we call a local agency check. Uh, and I
[00:26:26.480] did all those things. There probably 10
[00:26:28.960] things I did. I did a report, sent it
[00:26:31.440] back up there, and then we got on the
[00:26:34.400] phone, uh, we call a KY3 phone. was a
[00:26:37.120] secure uh phone system where we
[00:26:40.400] discussed the case between me, my boss
[00:26:44.080] and headquarters and they decided okay
[00:26:48.400] we need to do this operational plan
[00:26:50.320] which was developed up there sent to me
[00:26:53.760] and here's what I had to do and the plan
[00:26:56.159] was followed and so the disinformation
[00:26:59.520] or the misinformation
[00:27:01.840] uh was all planned at headquarters. Uh
[00:27:04.880] that's
[00:27:06.559] what they told me to do. I did what I
[00:27:09.919] was told to do. Sure.
[00:27:11.440] >> And and so that's that's how that goes.
[00:27:14.000] >> So was that stuff Did it feel to you
[00:27:16.640] like they had done that before?
[00:27:18.720] >> Oh, I know they've done it before
[00:27:20.240] because I've been involved in other
[00:27:22.000] operations where they've done it. Yeah.
[00:27:23.760] >> I see. So this was kind of protocol on
[00:27:27.279] how to deal with this scenario. Now, was
[00:27:29.440] that to deal was that only for people
[00:27:33.440] who saw
[00:27:36.159] um sort of
[00:27:38.400] technical advanced vehicle testing? Was
[00:27:41.679] that like the protocol or was there more
[00:27:44.240] than one protocol to deal with that? Was
[00:27:46.159] there a story, a script that you guys
[00:27:48.480] had to follow? I'm very curious about
[00:27:49.840] how you guys went about, okay, somebody
[00:27:52.320] reports a sighting. Do you instantly go
[00:27:54.880] into, okay, we investigate this and then
[00:27:57.679] if it was us doing advanced tech stuff,
[00:28:00.960] then we have this cover story that we go
[00:28:02.799] in with or was every case taken case by
[00:28:06.240] case? Like, how was that filtered? Every
[00:28:08.480] case was was different. Yeah, it depends
[00:28:11.200] on who did who saw it. The target we
[00:28:13.919] call uh and uh what the circumstances
[00:28:17.600] were uh behind their sighting. Uh and in
[00:28:22.320] Paul's case, he was taking pictures of
[00:28:25.600] something uh that was flying over the
[00:28:28.640] base. Um and it was a highly classified
[00:28:32.640] program, a drone program. It was the the
[00:28:34.960] Air Force's drone program that was in in
[00:28:37.520] its infancy stage.
[00:28:39.919] And the way they uh tested these drones
[00:28:42.640] was they would fly a plane. Uh it could
[00:28:45.840] e be a C130 which is propeller driven or
[00:28:49.120] a uh RC135 or RC 137 which were like a
[00:28:53.760] 707. They would launch these drones from
[00:28:56.640] the plane and there would be a
[00:28:58.640] controller
[00:29:00.159] controlling but the plane had to be in
[00:29:02.080] close proximity to these drones. Well,
[00:29:05.520] Paul was taking pictures of these
[00:29:07.360] objects flying around this aircraft,
[00:29:09.360] these aircrafts, and he assumed that
[00:29:12.399] they were UFOs. They were
[00:29:13.679] extraterrestrials.
[00:29:15.520] And so, uh, it was so the in order for
[00:29:20.159] him,
[00:29:21.919] um, to not be become involved in the
[00:29:26.640] classified program, we had to convince P
[00:29:29.679] that yeah, he was seeing UFOs. But it
[00:29:33.039] seems like he was already convinced of
[00:29:34.320] that. Like why not just let him believe
[00:29:36.320] it was UFOs and ignore it entirely?
[00:29:38.399] >> Well, we did. We do. I would go in and
[00:29:41.440] number one, Paul was involved in Apppro,
[00:29:44.880] which as you know what that was. Uh he
[00:29:48.480] was an investigator, field investigator
[00:29:50.320] for APRO. Um the infancy stage of Muon
[00:29:54.559] was there. Uh he was a believer in UFOs.
[00:29:57.440] He's had an experience uh with a UFO on
[00:30:00.159] a picnic once with his family. So he he
[00:30:03.600] was a believer. And so when I went in to
[00:30:07.120] talk to him and he told me what he what
[00:30:10.000] he did and what he saw, uh he and he was
[00:30:13.760] con trying to convince me they were
[00:30:15.440] UFOs. All I had to do was say, "You know
[00:30:17.760] what? Bo, I think they are. Yeah, I
[00:30:20.240] think they are flying saucers." He would
[00:30:22.720] use the word flying saucers, not UFOs.
[00:30:25.200] And I and and that's it. That's all I
[00:30:27.200] had to do. I didn't have to sit there
[00:30:29.200] and and interrogate him or or brainwash
[00:30:32.320] him or anything like that. He was
[00:30:33.919] already a believer and it was very
[00:30:35.440] simple to just agree with him.
[00:30:37.200] >> Yeah. And to to do the opposite would
[00:30:39.120] have been going against direct orders.
[00:30:41.440] >> Exactly.
[00:30:43.191] [sighs]
[00:30:44.159] H Yeah, it's that's an interesting uh
[00:30:47.440] position to find yourself in. Um at what
[00:30:50.799] stage during your career was that
[00:30:53.679] particular incident beginning? How many
[00:30:56.399] years in?
[00:30:57.520] >> Uh about three and a half or four years
[00:30:59.760] in.
[00:31:00.159] >> And how many cases had you covered
[00:31:01.919] similarly before that?
[00:31:04.240] >> UFO related. Um, in 1979 we had a case
[00:31:10.799] or early 80s, late 79, early 80s, we had
[00:31:15.039] a case at at Kirtland involving
[00:31:18.320] a a sighting in a a highly classified
[00:31:21.200] area of the base. A Sandia National
[00:31:23.919] Laboratory's security guard. Now, Sandia
[00:31:26.480] was a contractor on the base. The
[00:31:28.880] security guard was civilian uh had an
[00:31:31.679] encounter with a UFO that landed on the
[00:31:33.600] base. I was the case agent that went out
[00:31:36.320] there, investigated that. Before this, I
[00:31:38.960] was not briefed in anything to do with
[00:31:40.480] UFOs. So, I took the report, I
[00:31:43.840] investigated it, I came back to the
[00:31:46.640] office, I submitted a report through my
[00:31:49.360] through my boss to headquarters.
[00:31:51.679] Headquarters came back and said, "I need
[00:31:53.440] to be briefed into this particular
[00:31:55.840] program." And not is called NQ. Um, so
[00:32:01.279] my boss says, "You need to go. we're
[00:32:03.120] going to get you a briefing. You're
[00:32:04.240] going to need to go over to the uh uh
[00:32:07.360] Air Force Special Security Office, which
[00:32:09.200] is on the west side of Kirtland Air
[00:32:10.720] Force Base, and get a briefing. I said,
[00:32:13.279] "Okay." And now I've done that before on
[00:32:17.120] other matters, but nothing to do with
[00:32:19.840] UFOs on on espionage or something other.
[00:32:22.880] So, I did. I went over there. I sat uh
[00:32:25.600] went in a room. There was some other
[00:32:28.320] people, a colonel, Air Force colonel and
[00:32:30.559] a and a and a civilian briefed us on
[00:32:33.840] United States invol United States
[00:32:35.360] government involvement with the
[00:32:36.880] investigation and contact with the with
[00:32:38.960] extraterrestrials from 1947.
[00:32:42.240] And that's the briefing. It lasted
[00:32:44.399] several hours. They showed us film. Uh
[00:32:47.760] they showed us some documents.
[00:32:50.240] Um we took it all in. Uh
[00:32:53.519] >> you say we how many people were there?
[00:32:54.799] There were I don't remember exactly uh
[00:32:57.600] 10 maybe not OSI agents, right? I was
[00:33:01.120] the only OSI agent in the room. The
[00:33:02.960] other people in the room were
[00:33:04.399] intelligence people or or some other
[00:33:07.679] people that had a need to know were um
[00:33:10.799] were the other people in the room were
[00:33:12.399] some of them also civilians? Like were
[00:33:14.000] these academic types or contractors?
[00:33:16.399] There's no shortage of creativity on
[00:33:18.000] this channel as you've probably noticed.
[00:33:19.919] Uh we churn out some of the highest
[00:33:22.080] quality productions in terms of podcasts
[00:33:24.720] weekly and it is fun but it's also a
[00:33:28.159] grind and we don't always have time to
[00:33:30.159] attain that Spielbergesque level of
[00:33:32.640] production on a weekly basis. Uh it's
[00:33:34.880] nearly impossible but we do manage and
[00:33:39.120] that is partially due to the help of
[00:33:41.200] Higsfield Cinema Studio. See, we use
[00:33:42.880] Higsfield in pretty much every single
[00:33:44.960] production that we do. And whether it's
[00:33:46.720] really subtle things or whether it's
[00:33:48.640] recreating something, but you can also
[00:33:50.640] use Higsfield in very creative ways like
[00:33:53.519] I can have it rain in my studio right
[00:33:55.919] now or I could teleport myself into
[00:34:01.360] a UFO.
[00:34:03.600] There's no shortage of ideas. It really
[00:34:05.600] is uh limited only by your imagination.
[00:34:07.840] And if you want to check out how to use
[00:34:09.520] Higsfield or if you're curious at all, I
[00:34:11.520] left the link in the description. Thank
[00:34:13.040] you to Higsfield for sponsoring this
[00:34:14.480] video. Some of them were contractors.
[00:34:16.560] Sandy National Laboratories, a couple of
[00:34:18.720] them were with Department of Energy. Um
[00:34:24.240] I think there were some civilian uh uh
[00:34:29.520] scientists within the Air Force Weapons
[00:34:32.079] Laboratory there. Um, I'm just guessing
[00:34:34.960] because I don't know exactly,
[00:34:36.960] >> but I was the only OSA agent.
[00:34:38.399] >> Anybody with like longer hair than they
[00:34:40.079] should have.
[00:34:40.720] >> Yes.
[00:34:41.119] >> Yeah. Okay.
[00:34:42.480] >> Um, yeah. They would hire some
[00:34:44.888] [laughter]
[00:34:45.679] >> Yes. some kooky scientists back then.
[00:34:47.520] >> Yeah.
[00:34:47.839] >> And all sorts of trippy folk looking
[00:34:49.520] into this stuff. But so you're you're
[00:34:51.359] given this briefing. This is really
[00:34:52.879] fascinating. Uh, now in this briefing
[00:34:55.359] you mentioned, okay, there's footage,
[00:34:57.839] there's photos, there's documents.
[00:35:00.720] Did you ever get the sense as someone
[00:35:02.800] who's never stepped foot into this that
[00:35:06.240] this has got to be baloney? Like what
[00:35:08.240] they're what they're telling me here,
[00:35:09.520] this can't be real. Uh did you or anyone
[00:35:11.839] in the room get that sense or were you
[00:35:13.520] all just kind of taken aback of what you
[00:35:15.040] were seeing?
[00:35:16.000] >> Well, I had no conversations with any
[00:35:18.560] anybody else during this uh briefing and
[00:35:21.200] we had a break period too. I I it was
[00:35:24.160] several hours. Um well I never we never
[00:35:27.680] had any briefing because it was
[00:35:29.040] classified. We left to go to break room.
[00:35:31.200] It's on a classified area. You can't
[00:35:32.640] talk about classified information. We
[00:35:34.079] were not in a skiff when when this
[00:35:36.160] briefing occurred. Uh but yes absolutely
[00:35:40.640] because after this briefing was over
[00:35:42.480] with, I had to drive from there back
[00:35:45.119] over to the OSI office which was on the
[00:35:46.960] east side of Kirtland Air Force Base 7 8
[00:35:49.680] miles. Uh, I pulled into a parking lot
[00:35:52.400] of of some some uh unit on base and sat
[00:35:56.480] there and trying to digest what I just
[00:35:58.960] heard and my skepticism was way up here.
[00:36:02.880] I thought, is this a psychological
[00:36:05.599] operation they're pulling on us?
[00:36:07.040] >> You thought that? Oh, absolutely. I I
[00:36:09.520] was
[00:36:10.480] >> in fact I was always somewhat of a
[00:36:14.640] skeptic in the subject because growing
[00:36:16.560] up my brother was a UFO. I didn't
[00:36:18.960] believe any of that stuff. Uh but e even
[00:36:22.079] in the regular air force when I was
[00:36:23.920] wearing a uniform in the regular air
[00:36:25.599] force there was occasions of people
[00:36:28.160] talking about the subject. I would not
[00:36:30.720] believe anything they were talking
[00:36:32.079] about.
[00:36:33.599] Jump ahead to at to sitting in that
[00:36:36.240] parking lot. I thought this can't be
[00:36:37.760] real. I mean the crash in Roswell uh
[00:36:43.839] crash at Kingman. Uh, we saw a film of a
[00:36:47.359] crash site.
[00:36:49.280] It's all made up. So, I get back to the
[00:36:50.880] office.
[00:36:51.760] >> Before we get back to the office, that
[00:36:53.440] film on the crash site, can you
[00:36:54.640] elaborate a little bit which crash site?
[00:36:57.520] >> It was the Roswell crash site.
[00:36:58.960] >> That was the Roswell crash. Uh, the one
[00:37:01.119] in Corona.
[00:37:02.320] >> The run one in Corona. It showed the
[00:37:04.480] craft. It showed uh bodies
[00:37:08.800] outside the craft like on a dirt mound.
[00:37:12.720] And um it it showed a recovery area
[00:37:16.079] where there were tents uh military tents
[00:37:19.440] set up. Uh there were uh military
[00:37:23.359] personnel in uniforms, army uniforms.
[00:37:26.160] This is 47. Air Force hadn't existed
[00:37:29.040] quite yet. Um there were um
[00:37:33.520] debris that they apparently had taken
[00:37:35.839] out of the craft and and set on tables.
[00:37:40.079] Um the there was a narrator. Now none of
[00:37:45.040] the uh people in the the the t the movie
[00:37:49.040] or film we're talking uh the there was a
[00:37:52.240] narrator an army or a military officer
[00:37:56.000] narrating what we were seeing. Uh
[00:37:58.960] obviously that narrator
[00:38:01.599] wasn't there. I'm sorry was something
[00:38:04.880] that was added later.
[00:38:06.240] >> Sure. Yeah. But uh it was a looked to me
[00:38:09.680] like a legitimate film. The beginning of
[00:38:11.280] the film showed it was classified. Um
[00:38:14.960] and so that's that's what the film was.
[00:38:17.200] Now they also showed a second uh
[00:38:19.760] recovery site in Kingman, Arizona. And I
[00:38:22.720] I think it was 53.
[00:38:24.079] >> Yeah.
[00:38:24.800] >> And they showed it the craft and they
[00:38:26.720] showed uh two two bodies
[00:38:29.040] >> similar bodies.
[00:38:29.839] >> Uh no, they were different. They looked
[00:38:31.280] different. And recovery. Now in 53 there
[00:38:36.000] were Air Force personnel around the the
[00:38:38.160] the recovery truck said United States
[00:38:40.480] Air Force on it and so that's some of
[00:38:44.640] the what I can remember in the film. H
[00:38:46.560] >> how are you how are you allowed to talk
[00:38:48.720] about this?
[00:38:49.680] >> It's all unclassified now.
[00:38:51.680] >> That's unclassified.
[00:38:52.800] >> That is unclassified.
[00:38:53.920] >> So what happened to the footage?
[00:38:56.000] >> Good question. Where's the footage? I
[00:38:57.520] mean, if it's
[00:38:58.240] >> Congress Congress wants that footage
[00:39:00.320] footage. Um, the Air Force gave him some
[00:39:04.320] things but didn't give him everything.
[00:39:06.640] Now, I would love to know what all that
[00:39:08.480] footage is. And and that's just that's
[00:39:11.760] just two of probably 40 or 50 different
[00:39:15.119] crash sites that we know about.
[00:39:16.720] >> Really?
[00:39:17.280] >> Yeah.
[00:39:17.680] >> Could we as I mean there's probably been
[00:39:19.760] several attempts to foyer that briefing
[00:39:23.200] or those documents that were available
[00:39:24.720] in that briefing. How much success have
[00:39:26.960] people found in trying to retrieve some
[00:39:28.640] of that? What you saw?
[00:39:30.160] >> I tried.
[00:39:31.119] >> Yeah, [laughter]
[00:39:31.760] >> I tried myself and I got uh the they
[00:39:35.760] can't confirm existence or non-existence
[00:39:37.839] of the material that I requested. So,
[00:39:40.800] it's not going to be released because
[00:39:42.160] it's it's but I've talked about it. Many
[00:39:45.359] other people have talked about it. Uh my
[00:39:48.000] NDA expired in 2002. I started talking
[00:39:50.880] about it after 2002.
[00:39:53.119] There were only during during 2002 and
[00:39:56.160] 2020 today
[00:39:58.800] as we talk in 2026. Uh there's been two
[00:40:02.240] occasions where I've been visited by FBI
[00:40:04.800] agents who told me that I said something
[00:40:07.599] on camera that I shouldn't have said.
[00:40:10.720] And I said and I knew at the time I
[00:40:14.160] actually knew that I shouldn't have said
[00:40:15.760] what I was saying because it was still a
[00:40:18.400] special access program in SAP. Yeah. But
[00:40:21.040] I said it and I tried to work around
[00:40:23.359] what I said and I did I I did I did a
[00:40:26.480] poor job of that. And then the second
[00:40:28.480] time it was a document that I'd given to
[00:40:31.680] somebody that had uh some classified
[00:40:34.800] information on it. Uh and I can assure
[00:40:37.119] you that stuff isn't that's been out on
[00:40:39.200] the internet for years. Um that uh I
[00:40:42.960] shouldn't have given them.
[00:40:44.400] >> They're that quick to pick up on it.
[00:40:45.920] Huh. They're fine tooth combing
[00:40:47.839] everything. like this interview will be
[00:40:50.400] under scrutiny, you believe?
[00:40:52.079] >> Absolutely. Every single episode I've
[00:40:54.960] done for Gaia and and only uh the at the
[00:41:00.000] beginning when I first started working
[00:41:01.520] at Gaia uh the first uh probably
[00:41:06.480] 10 episodes, nothing. the 11th episode
[00:41:10.160] we talked about something and I did uh O
[00:41:14.880] FBI didn't come but OSI contacted me by
[00:41:18.640] phone and I knew a I knew the guy uh he
[00:41:23.440] was a he was a a civilian we had a lot
[00:41:26.960] well civilians in OSI you know we we and
[00:41:29.680] he went he left OSI and came back as a
[00:41:32.160] contractor which and within intelligence
[00:41:34.880] community it happens all the time
[00:41:36.400] >> sure you're never fully Exactly. And he
[00:41:39.200] called me and he said, "Richard, how you
[00:41:41.599] doing? I saw your episode on Gaia and I
[00:41:45.200] want to ask you a few questions." And I
[00:41:47.520] said, "Yeah, what do you need?" He said,
[00:41:49.119] "Why the hell did you mention this,
[00:41:50.720] this, and this?" I said, "It's
[00:41:53.680] unclassified." He said, "No, it's still
[00:41:55.359] classified."
[00:41:56.880] I said, "It is?" He said, "Yeah." I
[00:41:59.599] said, "Well, I assumed." He said, "You
[00:42:02.000] don't ever assume because you know
[00:42:03.599] assume you make a you know." And I said,
[00:42:06.640] "Okay, well, I guess I'm going to get
[00:42:08.240] visited." I never was visited. And this
[00:42:11.359] was in 2018, probably. Yeah. Early or
[00:42:14.079] late 2018. Nobody ever visited me, so I
[00:42:16.960] assumed it's not classified anymore. I I
[00:42:20.720] talked I saw him at a UFO convention a
[00:42:22.800] year later, 2018, at at uh
[00:42:25.040] >> What was he doing there?
[00:42:26.000] >> And
[00:42:28.400] they're always there.
[00:42:30.720] >> Um in fact, in that particular one,
[00:42:34.079] >> which which one was it? 2019 at
[00:42:35.680] Laughlin.
[00:42:36.480] >> Okay.
[00:42:37.200] >> Um there were three uniform Air Force
[00:42:40.480] officers in the audience.
[00:42:42.079] >> Uniform?
[00:42:42.640] >> Yeah, they were in uniforms.
[00:42:43.839] >> What's that about?
[00:42:45.040] >> Well,
[00:42:45.680] >> is that for show?
[00:42:47.200] >> For show, I guess, or they were trying
[00:42:48.880] to intimidate the crowd. I don't know.
[00:42:51.599] But um I w I didn't notice him uh right
[00:42:56.640] off the bat, but uh uh one of uh I think
[00:43:00.160] it was uh Robert Dean
[00:43:02.880] uh cuz Wendle was dead by that time, but
[00:43:04.800] Robert Dean was was there and Robert
[00:43:07.200] Dean came up and he said, "Hey, what's
[00:43:09.200] what's with the uh blue suitors out
[00:43:11.520] there?" I said, "What do you mean?" He
[00:43:13.599] said, "There's two captains and a and a
[00:43:16.560] uh senior master sergeant out there."
[00:43:20.240] I said, "Okay." So, I went I saw him. I
[00:43:22.960] went up to him. I'm a blunt guy, you
[00:43:25.680] know. I come up to him and I said, "Hey,
[00:43:27.440] uh, you know, I'm I'm Richard Dodie and
[00:43:31.839] and they said, "Well, we know who you
[00:43:33.520] are." I said, "Uh,
[00:43:35.839] you guys here on business?" The captain
[00:43:39.200] is was the one that was speaking, the
[00:43:41.119] female captain. Uh, and I never knew I
[00:43:43.680] didn't know her before this. And she
[00:43:44.880] said, "Uh, yeah, we're here just
[00:43:46.240] interested in the subject. Is there a
[00:43:47.839] problem?" I said, "No, absolutely not.
[00:43:50.160] Uh, you're more than welcome. Uh,
[00:43:52.640] whatever you want, cuz there's no
[00:43:54.480] classification in this briefing." She
[00:43:56.720] says, "We'll decide in that later."
[00:43:59.920] >> Wow.
[00:44:00.319] >> Which I thought was real interesting.
[00:44:01.839] Well, I went over and immediately told
[00:44:04.000] George Knap, I said, "George, look out
[00:44:07.040] there." He said, "I saw them. Who are
[00:44:08.720] they? Are they you guys?" I said, "I
[00:44:10.800] don't know who they are. They They just
[00:44:12.400] said they're from the Air Force. They
[00:44:13.520] won't say office, but uh I think you
[00:44:17.119] ought to go up there, George, and ask
[00:44:18.560] him for an interview.
[00:44:20.560] And uh I I don't know if George did, but
[00:44:23.680] I I don't think it it worked. I did have
[00:44:25.920] an interview with George uh there. And
[00:44:28.560] uh I knew one of them was standing back
[00:44:30.480] watching me at the interview. And they
[00:44:33.040] were there for my presentation. And you
[00:44:35.040] know, I I don't care. I They left. They
[00:44:37.920] didn't stay the whole time. They
[00:44:39.119] probably were there three or four days,
[00:44:40.720] two, three days. It's It's still a wild
[00:44:44.240] thing to show up at where dressed in
[00:44:46.400] uniform. I mean, that clearly signals an
[00:44:50.400] intention
[00:44:51.599] >> and an interest. You know, they gave
[00:44:54.319] away
[00:44:54.640] >> a
[00:44:54.800] >> public interest.
[00:44:55.520] >> A public interest. They gave away the
[00:44:57.440] fact that the Air Force is interested in
[00:44:59.599] what was being said at a UFO convention.
[00:45:02.240] >> And what was your talk about?
[00:45:04.319] >> I think that I I talked about Area 51. I
[00:45:07.680] think that was a a you know I do
[00:45:10.880] >> uh PowerPoint that would make sense on
[00:45:13.359] area 51
[00:45:14.480] >> and I and I didn't give away any
[00:45:16.160] classified. I mean afterwards there were
[00:45:18.560] a lot of questions asked of me that you
[00:45:21.119] couldn't answer that I couldn't answer
[00:45:22.319] you know because there was projects out
[00:45:23.760] there that I was involved with that I
[00:45:25.760] that I can't talk about now. I mean
[00:45:27.520] there were there were probably
[00:45:29.520] >> uh right off hand five that I'm not
[00:45:32.000] going to talk about and I will never
[00:45:33.680] talk about. How many special access
[00:45:35.920] programs have you been briefed on?
[00:45:38.720] >> Oh god. Uh there's different types of
[00:45:41.920] briefings. There's a there's a uh full
[00:45:44.640] briefing and limited briefing and then
[00:45:46.640] there's access only. It's called access
[00:45:49.040] only briefings. Um fully briefed
[00:45:52.640] probably
[00:45:55.760] maybe 20. And then again, you know,
[00:45:57.920] don't hold me to that. uh partial
[00:46:00.720] briefings. Uh I don't know because it I
[00:46:05.359] would be working on something
[00:46:08.000] uh and an OSI agent would be working on
[00:46:09.920] something and he needed help on so he
[00:46:12.160] would come to me and give me a partial
[00:46:13.520] briefing and I would help him with that.
[00:46:15.680] Access briefing is is when it happened
[00:46:18.400] right now,
[00:46:19.440] >> like you accidentally saw something and
[00:46:21.119] they had to brief you in
[00:46:22.079] >> or you're the you're the uh on call
[00:46:24.720] counter intelligence officer like Area
[00:46:26.560] 51 and they call you and say, "Hey, we
[00:46:28.720] got a we got a uh" and they give codes
[00:46:31.599] and I can't give the codes because I
[00:46:33.599] think some of them are still classified.
[00:46:35.119] They give you a code over the phone.
[00:46:36.480] Well, you know what that code means?
[00:46:38.480] >> Uh that the code like uh purple red. I'm
[00:46:42.000] just making up something. This isn't
[00:46:43.680] really one.
[00:46:44.560] >> Purple red. There's a purple red at uh
[00:46:46.720] such and such. Okay, now I know that's
[00:46:48.800] emergency. You know, I'll get my little
[00:46:51.200] book out and look. Okay, I got to get
[00:46:53.760] going to that and I have to get another
[00:46:55.760] agent to go with me. So, I have to give
[00:46:58.160] him
[00:46:59.280] >> limited briefing.
[00:46:59.920] >> Limited briefing. Well, I don't even
[00:47:01.599] know what I'm do getting to. This is an
[00:47:03.359] access.
[00:47:04.240] >> So, we get out there and we find an a
[00:47:07.200] crash site. I'm making this up. Okay.
[00:47:09.119] Yeah. A crash site. And there's aliens
[00:47:11.200] all over the place and there's toxic
[00:47:13.440] materials all over the place. So I have
[00:47:15.359] a checklist and I now there's a
[00:47:16.880] checklist and so you you think about
[00:47:19.200] this if there's a checklist for what I'm
[00:47:21.680] going to this is obvious happened in the
[00:47:24.079] past. So
[00:47:25.359] >> are you referring to Psalm one uh the
[00:47:28.560] Psalm one briefing?
[00:47:30.640] >> Uh
[00:47:31.280] >> like the the manual the special
[00:47:33.520] operations protocol manual.
[00:47:35.760] >> Something like that.
[00:47:36.560] >> Something like that. Okay. Something
[00:47:38.000] akin to that. something it can
[00:47:40.417] >> [sighs and gasps]
[00:47:40.640] >> um Okay, so to get back to you're in
[00:47:43.040] this parking lot, you've just had this
[00:47:45.200] mindblowing briefing and now you're on
[00:47:47.680] your way to I guess meet a witness who's
[00:47:51.200] a security guard for at Sandia National
[00:47:52.960] Labs.
[00:47:53.280] >> No, no, no, no, no, no. That Yeah, that
[00:47:57.280] was later. Yeah. Right. But when I got
[00:48:00.560] the briefing, I went back to the office.
[00:48:02.480] >> Oh, I see. And I went into my my boss's
[00:48:05.599] office, John, and I said, he said, he
[00:48:09.680] laughed. He's just kind of smiling. He
[00:48:11.200] said, 'What do you think? I said, 'Is
[00:48:12.560] any of that? I used any of that
[00:48:16.240] real? He says, yeah. I said, come on,
[00:48:21.839] John.
[00:48:23.680] >> This is a psychological operation
[00:48:25.520] against me. And he said, no, it's real.
[00:48:30.079] All that stuff is real. And again, I you
[00:48:34.079] know, okay, I'm I got a job to do. Yeah.
[00:48:36.559] All right. Okay. All right. You say it's
[00:48:38.880] real. I in my mind it's
[00:48:42.720] >> Yeah.
[00:48:43.200] >> You know, so I then I go and reinter the
[00:48:47.359] witness in Sandia, the Sandia Guard, and
[00:48:50.319] he explains all this stuff to me, tells
[00:48:52.880] me what happened, tells me that his, you
[00:48:55.599] know, the the the radio in his patrol
[00:48:58.079] vehicle, uh, the engine shut off and all
[00:49:00.640] these things.
[00:49:02.319] same thing I heard in in some briefings.
[00:49:04.720] I thought
[00:49:06.800] and the description of the craft
[00:49:09.599] um
[00:49:10.160] >> saucer-l like
[00:49:10.960] >> saucer saucer shaped and um I thought so
[00:49:15.393] [clears throat] I have to do a report
[00:49:16.640] and I have to investigate this and so I
[00:49:19.119] invest and then I go to the people on
[00:49:21.040] the base to try to see if like the uh
[00:49:25.520] air traffic controllers
[00:49:27.599] the radar approach control did they have
[00:49:29.680] anything coming in during that time
[00:49:31.280] period? Yes.
[00:49:33.520] Uh what did they have on radar? They had
[00:49:35.680] something unknown. Unknown blitch. Okay.
[00:49:38.079] It verifies what his information is.
[00:49:40.160] What time period this period? And then
[00:49:43.920] uh
[00:49:44.319] >> it was a landing by the way.
[00:49:45.520] >> It was a landing.
[00:49:46.640] >> Were uh were there beings?
[00:49:48.559] >> There were beings. Okay. What happened
[00:49:50.079] is there's a uh alarm structure. An
[00:49:53.920] alarm meaning uh there's a alarm on it.
[00:49:56.880] A structure in this classified area.
[00:50:00.079] Okay. And this security guard had to go
[00:50:02.240] out and check this area and this alarm
[00:50:06.160] went off. So he had to go out to
[00:50:07.680] investigate that, you know, why did this
[00:50:09.680] alarm go off?
[00:50:11.920] And this is this gets more complicated
[00:50:16.000] as I talk and we'll talk about MNA
[00:50:18.559] Hansen relating in con in conjunction
[00:50:22.079] with this later. But uh he had to go out
[00:50:24.880] and find out when when he got out there
[00:50:26.800] he sees this flying saucer and he's is
[00:50:30.079] this is his words hovering over this
[00:50:33.280] bunker and it's a bunker uh that's built
[00:50:36.079] in the into the ground and
[00:50:40.559] right off to explain what this means is
[00:50:43.119] there's a bunker this bunker in an
[00:50:45.680] experimental bunker uh to house nuclear
[00:50:48.800] weapons
[00:50:49.839] >> and what it is is you open the blast
[00:50:51.760] doors There's a there's a platform, an
[00:50:55.040] elevator that goes down 60 ft. So, they
[00:50:59.280] would store the weapon here, put it on a
[00:51:01.839] platform, put it down 60 ft. So, if a
[00:51:04.079] terrorist or the enemy breaks into the
[00:51:06.480] bunker, there's nothing in there because
[00:51:07.920] it's underground. And that's kind of
[00:51:10.000] like that was classified. It's not
[00:51:11.280] classified anymore. So, that's the
[00:51:14.079] bunker that he's that he went out to
[00:51:16.559] check on. He sees a flying saucer above
[00:51:18.559] it. Uh, it lands. when it lands, his
[00:51:22.400] engine shuts off. His mobile radio and
[00:51:26.000] his portable radio wouldn't work. No
[00:51:28.559] electricity.
[00:51:30.079] And then we actually know why that
[00:51:31.599] happens. And um so he gets out of his
[00:51:35.119] patrol vehicle, he gets a shotgun. He
[00:51:36.880] has a shotgun and a hand and a sidearm,
[00:51:39.200] but he gets a shotgun out of the the
[00:51:41.760] vehicle.
[00:51:43.359] And these two entities, as he calls
[00:51:46.319] them, gets out of this craft and they're
[00:51:48.960] in suits. They have helmets on uh metal
[00:51:53.280] uh silvery suits. Their arms were
[00:51:56.319] disproportionate to their body. Uh they
[00:51:59.040] have like heavy boots on. They have uh
[00:52:02.640] some kind of contraptions in both their
[00:52:04.559] hands there. And they turned and went to
[00:52:07.680] the front of the bunker. Well, he now
[00:52:11.599] he's a security guard. He has a job to
[00:52:13.760] do. He chambers a round in a shotgun
[00:52:17.440] because they the policy is he can't have
[00:52:20.400] a live round in his is in in the
[00:52:23.599] chamber. So he chamber his 12 gauge
[00:52:25.920] shotgun. He chambers around. They hear
[00:52:28.160] apparently they hear that and the weapon
[00:52:31.119] is taken out of his hand. He says it's
[00:52:33.440] taken out of his hand. It's it's dropped
[00:52:35.760] to the ground. He doesn't He never could
[00:52:37.920] explain to me how that happened. It just
[00:52:40.800] got out of his hand. And that's his
[00:52:43.440] words. Got out of my hands. He they
[00:52:46.240] don't know what to do. Then he went to
[00:52:47.839] for a sidearm, but he couldn't get it
[00:52:49.359] out of the holster.
[00:52:51.920] This thing then the two entities turned
[00:52:54.400] around, came back to the craft, got in
[00:52:56.000] the craft, and it took off.
[00:52:57.520] >> Was the craft like um like one of those
[00:53:00.079] seamless platforms that comes out of the
[00:53:02.079] structure and then returns or
[00:53:04.400] >> He could never explain how they came out
[00:53:06.640] of what they came out of. And we even
[00:53:08.640] put him under hypnosis and all he said
[00:53:11.119] was they came out of the craft. He
[00:53:13.520] doesn't know if the if if a platform
[00:53:15.680] fell. He he he could never explain that.
[00:53:18.400] >> You you hypnotized him.
[00:53:21.599] >> Yeah.
[00:53:22.079] >> That was that protocol. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:53:24.240] Yeah. We have psychologists that put him
[00:53:27.119] through hypnos hypnosis. Yes. Did you
[00:53:29.280] guys ever resort to um inoculating or
[00:53:34.400] using chemicals on people through
[00:53:37.119] interrogations?
[00:53:40.400] >> I don't think I can talk about that.
[00:53:41.982] [laughter]
[00:53:42.000] >> Okay,
[00:53:43.040] >> fair enough.
[00:53:44.720] >> So, this is your first feray other than
[00:53:48.880] Mario Woods happening where you were not
[00:53:50.720] briefed into any of this and thought
[00:53:52.160] that was just maybe crazy. Uh this is
[00:53:54.640] your first foray into someone claiming
[00:53:57.520] and then I assume this person seemed
[00:53:59.440] legitimate and and sincere.
[00:54:01.760] >> Oh, absolutely. He was and he a former
[00:54:05.440] army. He was in the army before. Uh he
[00:54:09.520] uh I believe he was an MP. Uh he worked
[00:54:13.200] around helicopters, so he knew that this
[00:54:15.520] wasn't a helicopter. Uh he never seen
[00:54:18.160] anything like this before. Uh he's been
[00:54:20.400] working for Sandia for I think 12 or 14
[00:54:23.440] years. Uh unblenmished record. Uh
[00:54:27.680] >> PRP probably as well.
[00:54:29.119] >> Yeah. Personal reliability program. Um
[00:54:33.119] he worked at a he worked in a uh highly
[00:54:36.400] classified
[00:54:38.079] area before he went out on patrol
[00:54:41.680] uh which required it was a special
[00:54:43.599] access program. So he had to have a
[00:54:45.200] special security clear. He had all the
[00:54:46.960] tickets punched. Um,
[00:54:50.559] we gave him a polygraph which was also
[00:54:52.880] pretty standard past that no deception
[00:54:55.359] indicated.
[00:54:57.359] So
[00:54:58.880] that helped me
[00:55:02.240] blend more into understanding
[00:55:04.880] the phenomena of of of
[00:55:07.839] UFOs.
[00:55:08.559] >> So what do you tell him? Do you like cuz
[00:55:10.880] when someone sees military tech, you
[00:55:13.359] tell them it's aliens. What happens when
[00:55:15.599] someone sees aliens? Did you tell them
[00:55:16.880] it's military?
[00:55:18.880] >> Well, there was another agent, a senior
[00:55:22.160] agent involved also with me when I took
[00:55:25.599] the initial report, did the initial
[00:55:27.440] investigation,
[00:55:29.200] uh, did all the reports and sent them up
[00:55:31.680] to to headquarters. The senior agent
[00:55:34.559] then became involved in that and he
[00:55:37.200] somewhat took over that. Now, what he
[00:55:41.200] told them or him
[00:55:44.559] um would have had to been in line with
[00:55:47.599] what he already had a security clearance
[00:55:49.440] for. Remember, Paul Benowitz didn't have
[00:55:50.880] a security clearance. Sure. He had an
[00:55:52.400] industrial security contract because he
[00:55:54.319] did have a contract with the with the
[00:55:56.000] government making uh parts for uh weapon
[00:55:59.760] systems. But this guy had a security
[00:56:02.400] clearance. He's he had he had all the
[00:56:04.559] tickets punched. He worked in a special
[00:56:06.559] access program that involved alien
[00:56:09.359] technology or examining them.
[00:56:11.200] >> Really,
[00:56:11.599] >> he he guarded those areas.
[00:56:13.839] >> So,
[00:56:15.440] it was difficult to tell him what he saw
[00:56:17.680] was government cuz he wouldn't have
[00:56:19.520] believed it. So, there there are other
[00:56:21.520] ways of of of covering that. You would
[00:56:24.160] make him sign an an NDA and
[00:56:26.400] >> or read him in.
[00:56:27.359] >> Read him in.
[00:56:28.480] >> And that's what I believe. Again, the
[00:56:30.960] senior agent handling. You don't know
[00:56:32.400] exactly what happened.
[00:56:33.040] >> I wasn't I wasn't involved in that.
[00:56:34.799] Exactly.
[00:56:35.359] >> There's no So, yeah, when you're briefed
[00:56:37.040] at a certain level, you're not
[00:56:38.000] gaslighting these people. You're you're
[00:56:39.520] you're
[00:56:41.599] probably more likely to bring them
[00:56:42.960] closer
[00:56:44.000] >> into Yeah.
[00:56:45.119] >> If a pilot, and I had these happened, an
[00:56:48.160] A7 uh uh jet pilot, Air Force pilot, a
[00:56:52.240] National Guard, it was Air National
[00:56:54.000] Guard, New Mexico Air National Guard,
[00:56:56.000] had an incident where he had contact
[00:57:00.160] in the air and on the ground. Uh,
[00:57:04.000] I handled that whole case, but I
[00:57:05.520] couldn't tell him that it was an Air
[00:57:07.599] Force.
[00:57:08.480] >> So, he he knew.
[00:57:09.760] >> So, what did you tell him?
[00:57:11.040] >> I I told him he probably encountered a
[00:57:13.760] real thing, you know, although it just
[00:57:16.480] it went away and and, you know, he he
[00:57:19.280] had to he wanted to get back on flying
[00:57:21.280] status because
[00:57:23.359] something like that happened. They take
[00:57:24.400] you off flying status, you know, and so
[00:57:26.400] he he he didn't want to. So I said, "You
[00:57:30.640] need to sign something that that you
[00:57:32.400] promise you'll never talk about it."
[00:57:33.920] "Okay, I'll sign it."
[00:57:34.880] >> You want to get back up in the air.
[00:57:36.880] >> Yeah. That's the thing about pilots
[00:57:38.559] specifically where it's pretty sensitive
[00:57:40.799] in terms of reporting and even even like
[00:57:44.400] personal mental health or anything like
[00:57:46.319] that just like takes you out of the sky.
[00:57:49.119] Um, so when something happens,
[00:57:54.079] let's say because you've obviously with
[00:57:56.559] Paul with the Paul Benowitz case, you
[00:57:58.400] know, you had to keep him going and
[00:58:00.799] saying, "Hey, this is Yeah, you're
[00:58:02.079] right. It is aliens or whatever." Um, so
[00:58:04.880] that you would detract him from what
[00:58:06.960] really was going on in the base. When
[00:58:08.880] things are of potential alien origin,
[00:58:13.599] do you sometimes tell them that it's
[00:58:15.839] just advanced tech when a civilian is
[00:58:17.839] reporting something like that?
[00:58:19.119] >> Absolutely.
[00:58:20.079] >> Yeah. So, would you would it be safe to
[00:58:22.640] assume from a civilian's point of view
[00:58:25.200] that the Air Force Office of Special
[00:58:28.960] Investigations is essentially what they
[00:58:31.440] refer to as the Men in Black from a
[00:58:34.400] civilian point of view?
[00:58:36.160] >> Yeah. um in a way. Yeah.
[00:58:38.880] >> But
[00:58:39.359] >> but but but
[00:58:41.520] the men in black is something entirely
[00:58:43.280] different
[00:58:43.920] >> within government structures.
[00:58:45.599] >> Within the government structure, uh we
[00:58:48.240] had a uh unit within the 760year
[00:58:51.440] intelligence wing at Fort Belvore. They
[00:58:54.240] they were the dirty tricks people, okay?
[00:58:57.040] And um uh they didn't go out and kill
[00:58:59.680] people or anything like that, but
[00:59:01.280] they're the ones if we OSI couldn't
[00:59:03.680] convince somebody or if we needed
[00:59:06.319] something uh that that we couldn't get,
[00:59:09.200] we'd bring in these people. And these
[00:59:11.760] were the bunch of uh we call them the
[00:59:14.240] thugs. I mean, they were the knuckle
[00:59:16.799] draggers. They were the guys that would
[00:59:19.520] uh that the military recruited out of uh
[00:59:23.599] uh someplace else that that didn't have
[00:59:25.680] the unblenmish records. They didn't they
[00:59:29.040] weren't the Harvard grads or the
[00:59:30.720] Dartmouth grads. Uh they were the
[00:59:33.920] >> rag tag bunch ragtag uh probably uh
[00:59:36.640] played football or soccer or rugby. And
[00:59:40.480] these guys uh had been in ballroom
[00:59:44.720] bar alls and and they're the type of
[00:59:47.520] guys that did things off the record so
[00:59:50.079] to speak
[00:59:50.559] >> unethically would you say to some
[00:59:52.240] extent?
[00:59:53.599] >> Uh you know probably.
[00:59:56.160] >> Yeah.
[00:59:56.559] >> Yeah. Um, but because they are not part
[00:59:59.760] of the OSI, they you have plausible
[01:00:04.160] deniability so that if you know anybody
[01:00:06.559] comes back and says, "Hey, you sent
[01:00:07.839] these thugs over who said they were
[01:00:09.920] going to bury us in the desert for
[01:00:11.359] talking about this stuff." You can just
[01:00:12.720] say, "That wasn't us. We have no idea
[01:00:14.559] who those people were."
[01:00:16.000] >> Exactly. And almost all of them were
[01:00:18.400] sheep dipped,
[01:00:19.760] >> if you know what sheep dip is.
[01:00:21.200] >> Yeah. Uh, so they were uh they would
[01:00:24.240] have um IDs uh they were postal workers
[01:00:28.559] or or whatever IDs they they could get a
[01:00:31.839] hold of. Um and uh and they if you
[01:00:36.079] checked it would be legitimate if some
[01:00:38.640] of them might have be worked for some
[01:00:40.400] construction company or something like
[01:00:41.920] that if they were caught. Yeah. Now, uh,
[01:00:45.680] and some were, uh, you know, caught
[01:00:48.160] either by us or by, uh, the civilian
[01:00:51.599] police and there were ways to get them
[01:00:54.240] out of what they they did. And it wasn't
[01:00:56.319] my job. It was Department of Justice
[01:00:58.480] already had been briefed into all this
[01:01:00.079] stuff. So, and I'm not sure how that
[01:01:02.319] worked, but uh, there were cases where
[01:01:04.480] they got caught doing what we told them,
[01:01:06.799] asked them to do.
[01:01:08.000] >> Yeah. Wow.
[01:01:09.760] It does seem like a lot of skull duggery
[01:01:12.799] happens within these organizations to
[01:01:15.119] maintain secrecy.
[01:01:17.119] >> A lot.
[01:01:18.160] >> Yeah. And that's part of I mean counter
[01:01:20.240] intelligence as well. Like there's a
[01:01:21.680] whole other you know when we think of
[01:01:24.480] counter intelligence I think not myself
[01:01:26.720] but I think when a lot of people think
[01:01:28.160] of counter intelligence and especially I
[01:01:30.400] think the names that come up are
[01:01:31.520] yourself and Lu Alzando in this space.
[01:01:34.160] um you know people often
[01:01:37.200] they they immediately go to oh disinfo
[01:01:41.040] agents and there's there's a whole facet
[01:01:44.160] of counter intelligence that definitely
[01:01:45.920] deals with mismal or disinformation.
[01:01:48.720] >> Um but there is also a whole other side
[01:01:53.520] of counter intelligence that deals with
[01:01:56.079] espionage that deals with other
[01:01:58.079] countries foreign adversaries and that
[01:01:59.839] type of thing. So um how would you to
[01:02:03.839] the average viewer uh looking at this
[01:02:06.319] scrutinizing you know counter
[01:02:08.559] intelligence being involved in the
[01:02:10.160] euphology how would you sort of justify
[01:02:13.680] the presence of counter intelligence in
[01:02:15.760] regards to UFOs?
[01:02:18.240] Well, we
[01:02:21.440] the job of the air force office special
[01:02:23.520] investigations
[01:02:25.440] specifically the special projects branch
[01:02:27.599] which I worked in we call them PJs uh
[01:02:31.040] different from par rescue and when I
[01:02:33.440] would say that on air they say wait a
[01:02:34.880] minute PJs are par rescue no special
[01:02:37.359] projects that our code was PJ um our job
[01:02:41.760] was protect
[01:02:43.839] uh materials classification classified
[01:02:47.359] material
[01:02:48.319] special access programs, sensitive
[01:02:50.400] compartment information under title 50,
[01:02:54.319] uh prevent that information from getting
[01:02:57.440] into the enemy hands and we would do
[01:03:00.079] everything in our power to protect that
[01:03:02.960] information. Our job was to protect the
[01:03:05.920] classified
[01:03:07.680] projects, special action, special access
[01:03:10.720] programs or or sensitive aircraft, new
[01:03:14.559] aircraft from that technology from
[01:03:17.920] getting into the enemy hands. And back
[01:03:20.079] in those days, it was the Soviet Union,
[01:03:22.160] the the the red Chinese, uh North
[01:03:24.720] Korean, uh Cuban. Uh so we did
[01:03:28.319] everything in our powers to do that. And
[01:03:31.200] that may involve uh deception operations
[01:03:33.920] which the this public calls
[01:03:36.880] disinformation. It's deception
[01:03:39.119] operations using misinformation. Okay,
[01:03:42.079] that's our job.
[01:03:43.440] >> Counter intelligence
[01:03:45.440] um and counter espionage is part of
[01:03:48.160] counter intelligence. Um we've ran
[01:03:51.520] counter espionage operations against UFO
[01:03:54.319] groups because of who was in that group.
[01:03:58.640] uh somebody that's not native. Remember,
[01:04:03.839] we are a free society.
[01:04:06.480] The Soviets or Russians are not. Back in
[01:04:08.799] my days, it was the Soviets. The Soviets
[01:04:11.680] could penetrate us because we're an open
[01:04:15.520] society. And guess what? The number one
[01:04:18.319] group they always penetrated, UFO
[01:04:21.520] groups. We had Soviet operators in you,
[01:04:25.520] Mufon, cause APRO, all these different
[01:04:29.440] groups to get information.
[01:04:33.520] And this is what people don't realize is
[01:04:36.400] that
[01:04:38.160] muon
[01:04:40.160] the reason we
[01:04:42.400] uh counter intelligence penetrated muon
[01:04:46.640] and appro and cause these other UFO
[01:04:50.000] groups was to keep track of the other
[01:04:54.160] hostile intelligence services
[01:04:56.240] penetrating them. You don't realize
[01:05:00.720] you you can't realize the number of of
[01:05:06.480] not Soviet spies,
[01:05:08.799] but uh I would say Soviet influencers
[01:05:11.680] that were in these groups, not just
[01:05:13.520] Soviets, even the Chinese had had uh
[01:05:16.480] people within the group. And why? Well,
[01:05:20.079] believe it or not,
[01:05:22.640] Mufund or Appro got information that the
[01:05:26.799] government didn't have.
[01:05:29.280] Uh, John Doe sees something.
[01:05:33.760] He doesn't report it to the Air Force.
[01:05:36.160] He reports it to a UFO group uh by
[01:05:40.799] phone. Back then, the internet wasn't
[01:05:42.640] around. And now MUFO MUAN sends field
[01:05:46.160] investigators out to investigate this.
[01:05:49.359] Those field investigators, unless it's
[01:05:51.440] something that is it's going to uh
[01:05:53.920] affect national security, they're not
[01:05:55.520] going to come to the military. So we
[01:05:57.680] have to have people in a group that know
[01:06:00.799] what these investigators are doing in
[01:06:03.119] order to report back to us. So that's
[01:06:05.200] what that complex ne west nest uh that
[01:06:09.520] we that involves counter intelligence.
[01:06:12.240] >> Yeah. I suppose where people might be a
[01:06:14.880] little,
[01:06:18.000] I guess, put off by that information
[01:06:20.880] would be,
[01:06:22.799] okay, you're infiltrating for national
[01:06:25.039] security in order to perhaps fend off
[01:06:28.640] foreign adversaries from getting access
[01:06:30.799] to this information. But with the same
[01:06:33.599] with the same stroke,
[01:06:35.839] you're also
[01:06:38.559] misrepresenting what happened to a lot
[01:06:40.480] of the experiencers, a lot of the
[01:06:42.640] investigators. You know, it's your job
[01:06:44.880] also to mitigate that information in a
[01:06:47.280] way that protects, you know, sensitive
[01:06:50.559] uh sites or real sightings uh protect
[01:06:53.839] the secret from going out. Um, do you
[01:06:57.200] think that that is still in effect today
[01:06:59.520] or I mean I would assume so.
[01:07:02.319] >> Oh, absolutely.
[01:07:03.119] >> MUON, all these different organizations
[01:07:05.680] are completely infiltrated and there's
[01:07:08.559] nothing that goes on there that isn't
[01:07:10.640] overseen by intelligence agencies, you
[01:07:13.599] would say.
[01:07:14.000] >> Yeah, there's a Bill Moore in every one
[01:07:16.160] of those groups.
[01:07:17.200] >> Well, I'm glad you I'm glad you brought
[01:07:18.799] him up. Um, how many Bill Morris were
[01:07:21.359] there when Bill Moore was around?
[01:07:23.760] >> A lot of Bill Moors. Uh but he was he
[01:07:27.440] was a person uh that I recruited, I
[01:07:30.079] handled him uh that we sent into the he
[01:07:33.680] was already members of the group
[01:07:35.119] >> of course
[01:07:35.680] >> and all we asked him to do was report
[01:07:37.680] back anything of significant value. We
[01:07:40.319] call it EIS, essential elements of
[01:07:42.400] information within intelligence that uh
[01:07:45.599] might affect national security
[01:07:47.680] >> but also to disseminate information
[01:07:50.480] >> that came later.
[01:07:51.839] >> Okay. And that's probably
[01:07:54.640] the uh one regret.
[01:07:58.079] If if I had to do it all over again,
[01:08:02.079] I would not be part of that.
[01:08:05.599] I was part of providing Bill with
[01:08:09.599] disinformation
[01:08:11.599] to set send in to discredit the UFO
[01:08:16.640] group. And um there was somebody else
[01:08:21.120] um also doing that within the CIA. Now,
[01:08:25.600] and this isn't classified anymore. Bill
[01:08:27.679] Moore was was being handled by both
[01:08:30.400] because Bill Moore had contacts uh
[01:08:33.359] within the Soviet Union. Uh he knew
[01:08:35.759] scientists within the Soviet Academy of
[01:08:38.000] Science and he was communicating with
[01:08:39.759] them. So the CIA was involved in that
[01:08:42.560] and we were involved in the other side
[01:08:44.000] of it. what Bill was doing. He he was a
[01:08:46.799] very important asset uh to us. And there
[01:08:50.480] was another person that um was actually
[01:08:55.199] fe feeding the disinformation
[01:08:58.319] uh to build more that went to these
[01:09:00.400] groups. Um it it always um I was always
[01:09:06.480] hesitant about that, but you know, I
[01:09:09.679] have a job to do. He had the job to do
[01:09:11.520] and we did it. We did our job. we were
[01:09:13.679] told to do this and we did what we were
[01:09:15.440] told to do. So that's the only part of
[01:09:18.239] of that that I I I I still regret. I did
[01:09:21.199] everything by the book before that I
[01:09:23.679] think we could have probably not I think
[01:09:25.839] we could have changed.
[01:09:28.159] >> What would you have done differently?
[01:09:30.319] I wouldn't have I wouldn't have targeted
[01:09:32.480] people within the group because those
[01:09:35.279] people within that group uh and there
[01:09:37.920] was only one occasion I'm talking about
[01:09:40.480] uh these these two people were
[01:09:43.120] legitimately collecting really really
[01:09:45.600] good information from a person that had
[01:09:48.159] a a close encounter
[01:09:50.719] um in Nevada and um
[01:09:54.640] not far from close to Dallas tested
[01:09:57.600] training range And
[01:10:00.800] we were
[01:10:04.239] we and I and I was part of it. Uh was
[01:10:07.520] trying to convince first of all we tried
[01:10:09.600] to convince these two investigators that
[01:10:11.679] they're not you know they shouldn't be
[01:10:13.440] reporting. They shouldn't listen to this
[01:10:15.679] person.
[01:10:17.360] Uh we've already investigated him. He's
[01:10:19.360] a liar. Just forget it. Well, they knew
[01:10:22.320] he wasn't and we knew he wasn't.
[01:10:25.600] So, and so they had this other agent
[01:10:30.320] uh would had to put more pressure on
[01:10:32.320] these two investigators within Muon. It
[01:10:35.440] was Muon out of Nevada. Uh they're very
[01:10:38.400] good people, too. And um to to try to
[01:10:42.239] convince them that uh they're not to
[01:10:44.880] listen to that guy. And I don't I think
[01:10:48.159] I think at the end they won, we lost
[01:10:51.520] because they didn't buy anything that we
[01:10:53.040] were saying. And sometimes we weren't
[01:10:55.920] always successful in deception
[01:10:57.920] operations. I can tell you right now. Uh
[01:11:01.520] we try our best, but uh there were only
[01:11:06.239] certain things we can do. Even if we
[01:11:08.480] brought in the thugs from the 760 intel
[01:11:12.000] wing, we you know they we had to operate
[01:11:15.520] under the law,
[01:11:18.080] mostly under the law. I mean there was
[01:11:20.480] stretches where you could you could do
[01:11:22.480] things. Uh but uh you know I never uh
[01:11:27.600] went above and beyond the law. I mean I
[01:11:29.920] I I I I knew what our limits were and
[01:11:34.320] there were times when we went right up
[01:11:37.600] and said listen
[01:11:39.840] this is it. We can't do anything more.
[01:11:41.600] Whatever they do they're on their own.
[01:11:43.840] And like I said we don't know we didn't
[01:11:45.679] always win.
[01:11:47.280] >> Yeah. But I mean just even the um the
[01:11:50.239] notion of being fed misinformation or
[01:11:53.920] being you know having that information
[01:11:56.320] injected into a group and then you know
[01:11:59.199] someone like Bill Moore in '89 at that
[01:12:01.600] famous MUON symposium where he confessed
[01:12:04.159] to you know being part of that. I mean
[01:12:07.120] that itself tarnishes
[01:12:09.840] you know not only
[01:12:12.640] his reputation but also the
[01:12:15.280] organization's reputation and we don't
[01:12:18.960] know what information is to be believed
[01:12:22.480] from that point on. So I I would say
[01:12:25.199] that you did succeed. Um there's you
[01:12:29.120] know although perhaps those people
[01:12:30.960] believed or didn't believe or refused to
[01:12:33.040] believe what you were telling them I
[01:12:34.880] think at at the end of the day the
[01:12:36.800] damage is done because as you know in
[01:12:38.719] counter intelligence I'm sure you don't
[01:12:41.120] have to prove something you just have to
[01:12:43.760] say it enough times and then people
[01:12:46.239] repeat it. Um,
[01:12:49.440] in terms of, you know, let's look at
[01:12:51.760] let's take a look at the 80s because
[01:12:53.199] there's a lot of stuff that came out in
[01:12:55.040] terms of like declassified or classified
[01:12:57.360] document leaks. Um, namely the Majestic
[01:13:01.520] 12 stuff. Um, a lot of the stuff that
[01:13:03.840] came, you know, to Jamie Shandera and
[01:13:06.960] to, you know, um, I mean to a lot of
[01:13:09.440] researchers tables and then this came
[01:13:11.440] out. Um,
[01:13:13.520] uh, who am I thinking of here? Timothy.
[01:13:15.679] um
[01:13:16.880] >> Timothy Good.
[01:13:17.679] >> Timothy Good and and uh Ryan Wood, you
[01:13:20.640] know, had had a lot of
[01:13:22.880] >> uh work on the MJ12 documents as well.
[01:13:28.159] >> I don't even know how to ask this. What
[01:13:29.840] part of the MJ12 document
[01:13:33.199] was there a part of that that you or
[01:13:35.440] anyone you know of your organization was
[01:13:37.199] involved in putting out there? And if
[01:13:39.360] so, specifically, which part? Well, I
[01:13:42.719] can't answer whether other people in the
[01:13:45.520] organization uh was involved in I'm sure
[01:13:47.920] they were. I wasn't involved in it. The
[01:13:50.640] first time I saw that document was when
[01:13:53.840] >> which document particular
[01:13:54.960] >> MJ12 that Jamie Shander got.
[01:13:56.880] >> Okay.
[01:13:57.360] >> There's a there's a lot more to that
[01:14:00.560] than than just him getting that
[01:14:03.600] document.
[01:14:05.520] He got some he was in Washington DC two
[01:14:09.280] weeks before meeting with somebody
[01:14:11.920] because Jaime was part of another
[01:14:15.360] operation. He was an asset that was
[01:14:18.320] being used by the Naval Investigative
[01:14:21.040] Service which is now Naval Criminal
[01:14:22.719] Investigative Service. Um back then it
[01:14:25.600] was just NIS and they were they were and
[01:14:29.280] I'm not going to go into that details
[01:14:30.560] but he was he went back to Washington.
[01:14:32.880] and he went back to the B uh botanical
[01:14:35.600] gardens. He met there and they told him
[01:14:38.960] some things. Uh two weeks later or
[01:14:42.960] roughly two weeks later, he gets the
[01:14:44.800] document uh in the mail. Uh uh stat
[01:14:49.760] marked Albuquerque, New Mexico. Uh but
[01:14:53.679] that is another thing. Um that's a fake
[01:14:56.640] marking because when the FBI did
[01:14:58.960] analysis on it, they said this isn't a
[01:15:01.120] postal marking. But that is that's
[01:15:02.880] beside the point. Anyways, he gets it.
[01:15:05.120] Um,
[01:15:07.440] what I'm getting at, it didn't go
[01:15:08.960] through the mail system.
[01:15:10.640] >> It was placed in this box.
[01:15:12.000] >> I see. Like dead dropped.
[01:15:13.440] >> Yeah, dead dropped. And so he gets this.
[01:15:17.760] He immediately contacts Bill Moore and
[01:15:21.360] Bill says, "Well, don't do anything with
[01:15:24.640] it, you know, let me see it and analyze
[01:15:26.719] it." And then at some time some other
[01:15:29.360] time I I he shows it to me. Bill Moore
[01:15:32.000] shows it to me, but he shows me a copy
[01:15:35.120] now. And we're in San Francisco. Okay.
[01:15:38.960] He Bill Moore meets me there and we we
[01:15:41.840] were doing something entirely different,
[01:15:43.520] but Bill says, "I got something I want
[01:15:45.199] you to look at, but we we can't do it
[01:15:47.360] here. We have to go someplace private."
[01:15:50.239] I said, "What is it?" He said, "It's a
[01:15:52.719] document." I said, "Where'd you get it?"
[01:15:54.960] He said, "I got it from Jamie." He
[01:15:56.640] doesn't give me the whole details then.
[01:15:58.239] Anyways, I said, "Well, go to the hotel
[01:16:00.080] room." And he shows it to me. I
[01:16:02.800] immediately take it from him. I said,
[01:16:04.800] "Bill, this is classified. Where the
[01:16:06.960] hell did you get it from?" He said, "Oh,
[01:16:09.520] it I it's a copy of a copy." I said,
[01:16:11.199] "Where's the original?" Jamie has it.
[01:16:14.800] So, I take it. I seize that document
[01:16:17.199] being I'm an OSI. I'm a federal agent. I
[01:16:20.400] seize that because it shows
[01:16:21.920] classification on it. So, I said,
[01:16:24.800] "Okay." Okay. So, the I'm here in San
[01:16:28.000] Francisco. The closest uh facility
[01:16:31.280] around a military facility is Travis Air
[01:16:33.920] Force Base in Fairfield. So, I go out to
[01:16:37.040] the OSI office there. And I said,
[01:16:39.440] "Listen, I sees this from somebody, you
[01:16:42.000] know, you need to need to package it,
[01:16:43.840] you know, do the packaging top secret.
[01:16:46.000] You got to go through the the uh armed
[01:16:47.840] forces courier system to get it to
[01:16:49.280] wherever." Anyways, they what do you
[01:16:52.080] want us to do with it? I said, "I want
[01:16:53.679] you to mail it to me at Kirtland." And
[01:16:55.920] so they do that. I sent it to
[01:16:58.719] headquarters.
[01:17:00.880] I sent the when I go back, you know,
[01:17:03.600] four or five days later, I get it. I
[01:17:05.440] package it and send it to headquarters.
[01:17:07.920] I never hear anything more. I I call I
[01:17:12.560] call I said, "Hey, uh, did you get
[01:17:14.159] that?" Well, I know they got the package
[01:17:16.320] because it has to go through an armed
[01:17:17.600] forces courier system because it's top
[01:17:19.360] secret code word. Yeah. I said, and the
[01:17:23.600] guy I I talked to, his last name is
[01:17:25.920] Benjamin. I said, 'Hey, Benji, we call
[01:17:28.960] him Benji. Benji, did you get that
[01:17:31.440] package? Yeah. He said, I he said, I put
[01:17:35.280] it through the channel and it it's been
[01:17:38.400] a month probably and I haven't heard
[01:17:40.320] anything back from it. I said, so what
[01:17:43.040] are they going to do?
[01:17:45.120] I don't know. Out of my hands.
[01:17:48.239] So I go and I thought, well, maybe the
[01:17:50.239] investigative side of it, the guys that
[01:17:51.920] investigate espionage are handling it.
[01:17:54.880] So I get a hold of one of them. I said,
[01:17:56.800] you what what are you doing with that
[01:17:58.080] document? He says, it's been passed on.
[01:18:02.480] I said, well, what are they going to do
[01:18:04.000] with it? He said, I don't know,
[01:18:07.520] but you don't need to know, Dodie. Said,
[01:18:09.840] okay, that I was out of it. I then I
[01:18:16.960] you know I'm somewhat intelligent you
[01:18:20.159] know I went to college I could figure
[01:18:22.239] out what two and two is I thought that's
[01:18:25.120] a disinformation that's a deception
[01:18:27.600] operation that just occurred.
[01:18:31.440] >> Do you think that was from CIA
[01:18:34.719] or from your department? Well,
[01:18:38.019] [clears throat] there's a there's a a a
[01:18:41.280] special
[01:18:42.880] office within the Defense Intelligence
[01:18:46.239] Agency, also the Central Intelligence
[01:18:48.239] Agency.
[01:18:49.760] Uh, it's named differently. It within
[01:18:52.640] the DIA, and it's not classified
[01:18:54.159] anymore, Special Means Committee. The
[01:18:56.960] Special Means Committee creates
[01:18:59.280] documents for mostly counter espionage
[01:19:02.960] operations,
[01:19:03.760] >> right? So, yeah. Passage material and
[01:19:06.000] >> Yeah. If you run a counter intellig a
[01:19:08.640] counter espionage operation, you have to
[01:19:10.480] give a little real stuff in order for
[01:19:12.159] the Soviets to believe it or whoever
[01:19:13.679] you're targeting.
[01:19:14.400] >> Sure.
[01:19:15.360] >> And so they do that.
[01:19:16.880] >> Wow.
[01:19:17.520] >> So I
[01:19:20.719] kind of figured it probably came out of
[01:19:22.960] there. I don't know for a fact.
[01:19:24.560] >> Sure. Yeah. Now, when when this was obby
[01:19:27.120] investigated back in ' 87 and 88,
[01:19:30.719] um the FBI pretty much
[01:19:35.280] targeted the DIA, but the DIA denies it.
[01:19:40.239] So, I don't know. The FBI had help in
[01:19:46.239] Didn't the Didn't the FBI go to the go
[01:19:48.400] to OSI in in determining that it was
[01:19:51.440] bogus?
[01:19:53.679] Now,
[01:19:54.400] >> well,
[01:19:54.800] >> that's that's where the crux is because
[01:19:56.480] whether it's real or not,
[01:19:59.280] I mean, they're going to deny it
[01:20:00.560] outright either way.
[01:20:02.800] >> There was a meeting
[01:20:05.120] when when and I I've found this out
[01:20:07.920] years later, not not then, not during
[01:20:09.760] the years.
[01:20:11.120] >> Uh I was sitting at a UFO convention and
[01:20:13.760] one of the um uh uh Colonel Law, he was
[01:20:17.840] chief of counter intelligence for OSI.
[01:20:21.040] uh he he showed up that towards the end
[01:20:24.159] of this UFO convention and uh I had
[01:20:28.080] actually went to the airport and got him
[01:20:29.280] and brought him there. Anyways, we were
[01:20:30.640] sitting talking and he and
[01:20:34.239] the subject
[01:20:36.159] uh
[01:20:37.760] came up of of Ryan Ryan Woods, doctor
[01:20:42.960] the father
[01:20:44.800] and um he said,
[01:20:47.920] "Wow, I never thought that stuff would
[01:20:50.719] end up where it ended up." And I I said,
[01:20:55.280] "Conel?" I said, "Is that stuff real?"
[01:20:58.080] He said,
[01:21:00.880] Richard, how many counter espionage
[01:21:03.840] operations did you run? I said, quite a
[01:21:06.400] few. You realize you have to give them
[01:21:09.120] the real stuff, some of the real stuff.
[01:21:12.000] And that's all he said to me.
[01:21:13.840] >> So, the MJ12 documents contain
[01:21:18.400] uh some legitimate information
[01:21:21.760] mixed in with some information.
[01:21:24.640] >> But none of that you can confirm. I
[01:21:27.920] can't because I didn't I wasn't author
[01:21:30.239] of it. Just like
[01:21:31.520] >> Yeah,
[01:21:32.640] >> it it's just like when the Linda How
[01:21:35.679] incident happened. I don't know if you
[01:21:38.239] want to talk about that.
[01:21:39.280] >> Sure. If you want to if you want to talk
[01:21:40.800] about it.
[01:21:41.360] >> Um
[01:21:43.280] we all know who Linda How is. She was an
[01:21:46.159] enemy. Now she's a friend of mine. Um, I
[01:21:49.600] was tasked with uh an operation to bring
[01:21:53.520] her in and brief her on something uh
[01:21:56.719] because of what she was doing,
[01:21:58.080] >> the documentary,
[01:21:58.960] >> the documentary she was working on HBO.
[01:22:01.440] And um so
[01:22:04.480] this is this is actually what happened.
[01:22:07.840] uh about a week before she was due to
[01:22:10.480] Albuquerque. OSI already knew that she
[01:22:13.040] was coming to Albuquerque and they they
[01:22:15.040] told me you need to make an appointment
[01:22:17.920] and and and and we're going to send you
[01:22:20.239] something and we want her to read this.
[01:22:22.320] I said, "Okay."
[01:22:24.159] So, uh we she's already contacted uh
[01:22:28.480] Jerry Miller who was part of this. Um
[01:22:32.560] and so I ended up going and picking her
[01:22:35.760] up. Oh, be the day before the afternoon
[01:22:39.840] before this was to occur, we had we had
[01:22:43.440] a a place to to to interview her and and
[01:22:47.199] there was a two-way mirror and she was
[01:22:48.800] everything was going to be recorded
[01:22:50.480] audio and video video and uh I get a
[01:22:54.000] package in from the armed forces
[01:22:55.280] courier.
[01:22:56.800] Uh I opened it and I kind of looked
[01:23:00.000] through it but I didn't really read
[01:23:01.679] everything. the the day of her meeting,
[01:23:04.560] I went out just before I went out to
[01:23:06.480] pick her up to bring her to the gate
[01:23:08.000] because she had to be cleared in. I read
[01:23:10.480] it. I read I went through the document
[01:23:12.480] and I said, "Holy cow, this is
[01:23:14.480] presidential briefing document." But I,
[01:23:17.679] you know, the counter intelligence
[01:23:19.840] officer in me says, "Wonder how much of
[01:23:22.080] this is real." [clears throat]
[01:23:24.000] So anyway, she comes in and I give her
[01:23:26.480] the spiel. I said, "You can read this.
[01:23:28.560] Can't take notes. Uh, I can't can't
[01:23:31.840] photograph it. And so she reads it and
[01:23:33.840] she
[01:23:35.520] she asked me, "How long do I have?" I
[01:23:37.360] said, "You can read it a couple
[01:23:38.719] different times." So she took her
[01:23:40.880] probably 354 minutes. She I mean, she
[01:23:43.679] read everything several times. I took it
[01:23:47.040] back. I put it back in the desk. I
[01:23:49.840] packaged it up. I sent it back to
[01:23:51.520] headquarters. And that's my beginning uh
[01:23:55.920] of of of using her as a source of
[01:23:59.679] information. Now I find out later
[01:24:03.920] that they were going to do this
[01:24:06.719] operation against her and it's being
[01:24:08.000] handled in headquarters. Not not not me
[01:24:10.080] with me. I was just a field agent uh
[01:24:13.520] handling what they asked me to handle. I
[01:24:15.760] wasn't actually the case agent. That was
[01:24:17.760] being done in in headquarters. She was
[01:24:20.400] to do an a documentary uh uh for UF uh
[01:24:24.320] for HBO on UFOs and she had information
[01:24:27.840] that she had obtained from an Air Force
[01:24:31.120] officer who worked at the Pentagon.
[01:24:34.480] My job was to get the name of that
[01:24:36.719] officer
[01:24:39.120] >> so we could run a a case against him
[01:24:42.000] because he disclosed classified
[01:24:44.000] information to her. So that's why I
[01:24:46.880] handled Linda and she was a tough
[01:24:49.679] cookie. I I was totally unsuccessful. I
[01:24:52.719] never got anything from her. Uh she was
[01:24:55.120] very smart. Uh she would give me other
[01:24:58.719] information but names I never get that
[01:25:01.440] from her.
[01:25:02.239] >> Yeah. Linda's um tenacious to say the
[01:25:05.600] least.
[01:25:06.480] >> Yeah. That's a good word for Yeah.
[01:25:08.239] >> Yeah. Okay. But but but getting back to
[01:25:11.440] it,
[01:25:12.000] >> the information that she was reading,
[01:25:15.120] >> you don't know.
[01:25:16.960] >> I I actually only had access to it for
[01:25:20.880] that short period of time because I had
[01:25:22.639] to send it back. I read it. I read the
[01:25:25.040] document. I read the same thing she read
[01:25:26.960] and I thought it was amazing what they
[01:25:29.120] were giving her, but I thought it can't
[01:25:31.679] be real. I mean, I mean, some of it
[01:25:33.840] probably is. Now, over the years, I've
[01:25:37.360] learned that some of that is real and
[01:25:40.320] then some of it isn't.
[01:25:41.840] >> So, what have you created that isn't
[01:25:44.800] real?
[01:25:46.159] >> I create We mean during my time in OSI,
[01:25:49.679] uh, I I didn't create anything.
[01:25:51.199] >> No material.
[01:25:52.080] >> No, I I would not be allowed to do that.
[01:25:54.560] >> No. So, No, but what information did you
[01:25:56.639] pass on?
[01:25:58.639] >> Okay.
[01:25:59.120] >> That was given to you that you know for
[01:26:00.480] a fact wasn't real that people took us
[01:26:02.080] to church.
[01:26:02.480] >> Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um
[01:26:05.679] there was an incident involving a uh a
[01:26:08.560] civilian uh that saw something. It was
[01:26:11.840] an actually an experimental craft. It
[01:26:14.560] was uh the first prototype of the
[01:26:18.560] Aurora.
[01:26:19.520] >> Okay.
[01:26:20.080] >> Which was being developed at the same
[01:26:21.920] time that the F17 was at Tonap. That
[01:26:25.760] same time period. this guy saw this and
[01:26:30.639] I had to give him information
[01:26:33.600] uh on a UFO. I made we made up OSI made
[01:26:37.199] up the story about a UFO
[01:26:40.000] that occurred a sighting of of occurred
[01:26:43.280] the same time he saw this real craft. So
[01:26:47.120] everything I gave him about that UFO was
[01:26:50.239] was false. I mean everything
[01:26:53.360] um it came down from headquarters. I
[01:26:56.159] even probably embellished a lot of that
[01:26:58.560] stuff to convince him and he and he was
[01:27:01.199] thoroughly convinced and then I had him
[01:27:02.960] sign an NDA.
[01:27:05.760] >> Wow.
[01:27:06.320] >> So that was that was one of I mean I
[01:27:09.199] probably did it well I I know I did it
[01:27:12.159] other times. Um this is this is a funny
[01:27:16.560] story about uh Nellis test and training
[01:27:19.520] range while we were out there when I was
[01:27:21.440] out there at at Groom Lake.
[01:27:24.719] Um back in those days in the late 70s
[01:27:27.520] and 80s prostitution was legal in
[01:27:30.400] Nevada. Most counties had prop county
[01:27:34.159] which most of uh Del's testing train the
[01:27:38.719] testing range encompassed NY County a
[01:27:41.520] little bit of Lincoln and a little bit
[01:27:43.440] of Clark. Um,
[01:27:46.560] our job was to go out and recruit every
[01:27:49.040] single prostitute
[01:27:51.040] around the Nellis testing range and pay
[01:27:54.719] them to inform us when an Air Force
[01:27:57.520] person came in and talked about anything
[01:28:00.320] dealing with their job.
[01:28:02.480] >> Wow.
[01:28:03.520] >> And and we did that. And I tell you
[01:28:06.080] what, the best sources of information
[01:28:08.320] are those prostitutes.
[01:28:09.920] >> No way. Because we actually ran a case
[01:28:12.719] against a pilot
[01:28:14.080] >> because of
[01:28:14.800] >> he came in he used a he used one
[01:28:17.280] particular prostitute all the time. He
[01:28:19.280] was a major and he was flying the 117.
[01:28:22.639] >> Oh wow. and he would come in and and and
[01:28:25.199] try to impress her by telling her
[01:28:27.520] stories about the F-119
[01:28:30.719] and he was doing 11719
[01:28:34.159] and that uh he could do all these
[01:28:36.320] strange things and and and
[01:28:40.080] even we could chase flying saucers with
[01:28:43.120] him and all this stuff. Well, when we
[01:28:46.960] visited and well, she called us.
[01:28:50.719] Uh, we had a special phone number and
[01:28:52.719] she called us and she said, "Uh, I got
[01:28:55.440] some information for you." So, she was
[01:28:58.159] at prompt.
[01:28:58.960] >> Were they paid?
[01:29:00.080] >> Oh, well paid.
[01:29:00.960] >> So, wait, the Air Force paid
[01:29:02.080] prostitutes? Is there anything?
[01:29:03.199] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[01:29:04.560] >> Well paid, but but not for anything,
[01:29:07.120] just for the information. So, I go out
[01:29:09.520] there with another agent and um she we
[01:29:13.360] go in and she says
[01:29:15.760] she gives us his name and she tells us
[01:29:17.920] everything he said.
[01:29:20.080] And I said,
[01:29:22.000] "He told you this stuff?" Yeah. I don't
[01:29:24.480] know if it's any of it's true that they
[01:29:26.159] don't wouldn't know it. I said, "Okay."
[01:29:28.480] I said, "Uh, how often does he come in
[01:29:31.040] here?" She said, "Uh, once every couple
[01:29:34.560] weeks." Well, they could only get off
[01:29:36.239] every whatever it was. I don't know. I
[01:29:38.320] don't remember now. Periodically he
[01:29:41.120] would come in. I said, "Does he make an
[01:29:44.639] appointment?" And she said, "Yeah." I
[01:29:47.040] said, "Next time he calls and make
[01:29:48.800] appointment, let us know because we're
[01:29:50.080] going to we're going to put a we're
[01:29:51.199] going to bug the room." And so she does
[01:29:53.920] and we bug it and we get and he's she's
[01:29:56.320] just asking him questions. Hey, remember
[01:29:58.800] you told me about that plane that you
[01:30:01.120] guys are flying out there and the flying
[01:30:03.040] saucers and stuff. And then he went on
[01:30:06.320] like 20 some minutes talking about it.
[01:30:09.760] So she calls us and says, "Hey, I you
[01:30:11.760] know, he left and I turned it off like
[01:30:13.920] you told us to and we come out get it
[01:30:16.400] and then we go pay him a visit at the
[01:30:18.159] dorm at Tonipa, you know, and you know,
[01:30:20.639] it's funny. He's in this dorm and you
[01:30:23.360] know he's officer Bill he's a major and
[01:30:27.040] he has a suite and then I knock on the
[01:30:29.199] door he opens it and his face just went
[01:30:32.400] >> h
[01:30:33.120] >> he knew
[01:30:34.960] I said you know special agent door OS I
[01:30:37.199] need to talk to you
[01:30:39.199] he says okay I said uh but not here
[01:30:42.239] you're going to go with me we're going
[01:30:44.159] to go over the OSI office which we had
[01:30:46.000] one at Tonipa
[01:30:48.080] he says you want me to bring anything
[01:30:49.520] with me I said no just your ID just, you
[01:30:51.679] know, so [sighs]
[01:30:54.320] put him in the vehicle. He's we get him
[01:30:57.120] in the office, take put him in an
[01:30:58.320] interrogation room and what you do is
[01:31:00.480] you put him in there and there's a
[01:31:02.880] camera and they know the camera's on and
[01:31:04.800] we sit him there and we let him let him
[01:31:07.040] wait
[01:31:08.639] because this is going to be
[01:31:09.440] interrogation. It's not going to be an
[01:31:10.800] interview.
[01:31:12.639] And um that's guy's married,
[01:31:15.520] >> has two children. And so we come in and
[01:31:18.480] I come in with the other agent. I sit
[01:31:20.480] down. And I said, "Major,"
[01:31:24.000] he said, "I know you're going to talk
[01:31:25.280] about." I said, "Shut your mouth. Don't
[01:31:27.120] even talk to me yet."
[01:31:30.080] Yeah. He I said, "When I ask you a
[01:31:32.719] question, you can answer it."
[01:31:35.520] Yes, sir. Yes, sir. And um I tell him I
[01:31:39.600] kind of give him a preamble, not
[01:31:42.320] mentioning anything directly.
[01:31:44.080] >> Sure.
[01:31:45.040] >> I said, "You know, you're a major in the
[01:31:46.719] United States Air Force. you've been a
[01:31:48.239] pilot for whatever it was, 14, 15 years.
[01:31:51.360] Uh you're flying one of the uh most
[01:31:55.440] expensive and most classified aircraft
[01:31:58.480] that the Air Force has.
[01:32:00.960] And um you're married, right? You got
[01:32:04.960] two kids. Your wife's at Edwards Air
[01:32:08.320] Force Base. You're here
[01:32:11.840] and you can't keep it in your pants.
[01:32:15.440] He starts crying.
[01:32:16.719] >> Yeah.
[01:32:18.560] It's not funny, but he starts crying. He
[01:32:21.360] He said, "Okay." I said, "But but but
[01:32:24.000] but before I ask you any questions, I
[01:32:27.120] have to read this to you. It's your
[01:32:28.800] article 31. That's a fifth amendment in
[01:32:30.880] the military." I read him as, you know,
[01:32:32.800] you have a right to remain silent and
[01:32:34.000] all that stuff. And I pulled him the
[01:32:36.639] document. I said, "You need a sign there
[01:32:38.159] on the bottom that you acknowledge it."
[01:32:39.840] He does. I said, "So now we're going to
[01:32:41.679] talk if you want to talk.
[01:32:45.120] But remember what's going to happen if
[01:32:47.600] you don't talk to me when you leave that
[01:32:49.120] room. But you don't have to talk to me.
[01:32:51.840] >> Yeah.
[01:32:52.239] >> And he talked. Of course, he admitted
[01:32:53.920] everything.
[01:32:54.480] >> Yeah.
[01:32:54.719] >> He took offline status. He he they sent
[01:32:57.040] him back to Edwards and he he um
[01:33:01.760] eventually he just took him off that
[01:33:03.520] program.
[01:33:05.360] I don't know really what happened. I
[01:33:07.120] mean I he I think he went back to flying
[01:33:09.920] status, but not anything classified any.
[01:33:12.320] I guess you had to have the prostitute
[01:33:14.239] as well sign NDAs.
[01:33:15.920] >> Oh, yeah.
[01:33:16.480] >> In that case,
[01:33:17.199] >> well, they don't know. Yeah, we do. But
[01:33:20.800] >> they're not liable to really talk about
[01:33:23.040] it.
[01:33:23.440] >> They keep their mouth shut.
[01:33:25.199] >> Yeah, they're good. They're good at
[01:33:26.159] keeping secrets.
[01:33:27.120] >> They're very good at keeping secrets.
[01:33:28.800] >> Yeah. And that wasn't just that was one
[01:33:30.880] of many
[01:33:31.920] >> Sure.
[01:33:32.800] >> cases that we we had.
[01:33:34.320] >> So quite successful.
[01:33:36.080] >> Very very successful. Yeah. I said that
[01:33:38.560] the Air Force spent a lot of money on on
[01:33:40.480] the prostitution around, but we never we
[01:33:43.440] never got anything from it but
[01:33:44.800] information.
[01:33:45.920] >> Yeah. On the books at least.
[01:33:48.480] >> Yeah.
[01:33:49.120] >> Um Okay. So
[01:33:52.000] towards the
[01:33:54.159] end of the 80s now we've you know we've
[01:33:57.199] gone through so many things in terms of
[01:34:00.320] documents coming forward uh prominent
[01:34:02.639] researchers being sort of outed as as uh
[01:34:06.400] you know part of a dis disinformation
[01:34:08.159] campaign. Um
[01:34:11.280] a lot is going on in Euphology.
[01:34:15.360] But then in 1988, there was a TV special
[01:34:18.800] which you're on um the UFO cover up um
[01:34:22.400] on on TV and well you're hidden under
[01:34:27.280] the alias Falcon if I'm not mistaken and
[01:34:30.719] then there's also um uh what was it? Uh
[01:34:35.199] it was Condor uh was the other was the
[01:34:38.080] other person and you
[01:34:40.080] >> Bob Collins. Robert Collins.
[01:34:41.600] >> That's right. and
[01:34:44.239] you go on there talking about a lot of
[01:34:46.719] really interesting things. Now I want to
[01:34:49.120] know did that come from
[01:34:53.600] your own valition or was that was that
[01:34:56.639] an order to do something like that?
[01:34:58.560] Where did that come from? Where did the
[01:35:00.719] the where were the impetus?
[01:35:03.280] >> Well, number one, that wasn't live.
[01:35:06.400] >> That was recorded a year before,
[01:35:08.800] >> right?
[01:35:10.239] Uh, and that was part of another
[01:35:13.360] operation
[01:35:14.880] >> and that came from OSI.
[01:35:16.159] >> Yeah, it came from OSI.
[01:35:17.440] >> So they were because that's the that's
[01:35:19.360] the
[01:35:19.679] >> that was 87, not 88.
[01:35:20.880] >> Oh, 87. My bad. And it was so strange
[01:35:23.520] because you know, you're basically
[01:35:28.000] making public
[01:35:30.320] what you were the same information that
[01:35:33.679] you were giving to Paul Benowitz. What
[01:35:36.000] was the call there? Why go from, hey,
[01:35:38.400] we're going to you we're going to, you
[01:35:40.880] know, keep this contained and control
[01:35:42.880] the situation to now go public with this
[01:35:45.760] thing like what was the reason?
[01:35:47.760] >> Well, well, um,
[01:35:50.400] OSI was trying to this that was part of
[01:35:53.040] an OSI and FBI investigation. They were
[01:35:55.120] trying trying to draw somebody out.
[01:35:57.199] >> I see.
[01:35:58.080] >> And they were hoping that what I said.
[01:36:00.960] Now, at the time I did that interview, I
[01:36:03.760] didn't know about what was going to
[01:36:05.040] happen a year later. Actually, it was
[01:36:06.719] like 15 months before
[01:36:09.360] the October 87 interview
[01:36:14.000] the movie.
[01:36:14.800] >> Yeah. When it came out.
[01:36:15.520] >> When it came out. When Yeah. So, I
[01:36:18.960] didn't know uh
[01:36:20.480] >> that all that the lid was going to get
[01:36:21.840] blown.
[01:36:22.159] >> No.
[01:36:22.560] >> Yeah.
[01:36:23.280] >> And
[01:36:24.800] And so,
[01:36:27.360] they were hoping and I wasn't involved
[01:36:29.280] in this part of it. They were hoping to
[01:36:30.800] draw out somebody that they were looking
[01:36:33.199] for
[01:36:34.719] that had disclosed classified
[01:36:37.199] information to somebody else.
[01:36:40.719] And so
[01:36:42.719] I had a script.
[01:36:45.040] >> Okay. And were you aware of what parts
[01:36:48.639] of that script were fabricated,
[01:36:51.440] confabulated, and which parts were maybe
[01:36:54.719] real?
[01:36:56.639] Most of what I said was um
[01:37:01.280] was real. Uh but there was some probably
[01:37:04.880] misinformation in there.
[01:37:06.159] >> And what I don't remember, you know, I
[01:37:08.159] don't remember.
[01:37:08.880] >> Okay. The strawberry ice cream probably.
[01:37:10.880] >> No, the strawberry ice cream was real.
[01:37:13.679] Really? Absolutely. The strawberry ice
[01:37:16.000] cream.
[01:37:17.360] >> Go back and ask Linda Howell. Okay.
[01:37:20.320] Linda How had the um she interviewed
[01:37:25.760] >> and the
[01:37:26.480] >> the captain that lived with Eba one,
[01:37:30.159] >> okay,
[01:37:30.560] >> from 47 and he used the the strawberry
[01:37:34.960] ice cream. He that that was started back
[01:37:37.760] in 1980 when Linda Howell heard that
[01:37:40.719] from the captain.
[01:37:44.159] >> And what was the reason to include that?
[01:37:46.239] I feel like that feels like
[01:37:48.159] disinformation.
[01:37:49.199] >> It does. And is that why?
[01:37:50.800] >> Yeah.
[01:37:51.520] >> Because it's so going to believe it.
[01:37:53.119] >> It's so outlandish. We're just going to
[01:37:54.719] throw that in there.
[01:37:55.679] >> Yeah.
[01:37:56.080] >> Wow.
[01:37:58.239] >> Um, so that was officially authorized.
[01:38:01.440] It was a It was a project. It was a Is
[01:38:04.320] was there a name to that project?
[01:38:07.040] >> H I'm sure there was, but I don't recall
[01:38:09.040] it. I don't recall what the name is now.
[01:38:11.119] >> And then the whole idea of like the
[01:38:13.199] aviary and that sort of that was what
[01:38:15.520] was that about? Well, the Averary was
[01:38:18.320] created by Jamie Shander and um and and
[01:38:22.239] and others. I can't think of her name.
[01:38:24.719] Uh Tracy
[01:38:28.000] um
[01:38:29.600] what was it? What's her name? Anyways,
[01:38:32.239] that was created by them.
[01:38:34.560] >> Mhm. because of of the uh the working
[01:38:38.880] group that I was a part of that uh Hal
[01:38:43.760] Putoff, Kit Green, uh Scott uh
[01:38:48.960] uh uh Scott, what's his name? Uh Senator
[01:38:53.119] Pel's aid. Um and then others that we
[01:38:57.280] would meet. Richard Helms was actually
[01:38:59.119] the Falcon. He was the the part of the
[01:39:01.679] controller. I was just a a really low
[01:39:03.840] person on a on on a totem pole, so to
[01:39:06.320] speak. And I I did a lot of fetching
[01:39:10.159] things for them and and the security
[01:39:13.520] clearances and stuff for them when they
[01:39:15.520] had meetings. And
[01:39:18.480] Jamie Shander got wind of that and he
[01:39:21.360] named these people the Averary. We we
[01:39:24.960] found out about that after the after,
[01:39:27.600] you know, it was out in the public. I
[01:39:30.080] think uh uh Phil class
[01:39:33.360] >> Phil class was
[01:39:35.760] >> interesting stuff. Uh what's also
[01:39:37.440] interesting and this is something I
[01:39:38.400] wanted to mention and not something I've
[01:39:39.920] ever talked about before but um
[01:39:43.040] so in
[01:39:45.679] there is evidence that I have that shows
[01:39:49.920] um you familiar with David Copperfield?
[01:39:52.080] >> Yes.
[01:39:52.639] >> His father was stationed in Roswell. I
[01:39:56.880] have a picture of his ID from 1945.
[01:39:59.760] at Roswell Air Force Base and he was
[01:40:02.480] counter intelligence.
[01:40:04.560] >> Hello.
[01:40:05.119] >> At Roswell.
[01:40:06.239] >> I didn't know that.
[01:40:07.040] >> Now I have Yeah. Not a lot of people do.
[01:40:08.639] Um nobody does actually. Um but I I did
[01:40:11.920] some digging because I have um I just
[01:40:14.719] thought this was an interesting overlap
[01:40:16.239] as well being as that
[01:40:18.960] most recognizable
[01:40:21.360] deception artist of our time, David
[01:40:23.360] Copperfield, had a father who who may or
[01:40:26.159] may not have been part of the Roswell
[01:40:27.679] coverup. It it was it was the uh driving
[01:40:30.159] force uh for David's show in Vegas for
[01:40:33.679] many many years uh which involved a UFO,
[01:40:36.320] an alien, like he had this whole, you
[01:40:37.840] know, Vegas show. And what started that
[01:40:40.400] was him going through his father's
[01:40:41.920] things when his father passed and
[01:40:43.840] finding his ID.
[01:40:45.520] >> Never knew that.
[01:40:46.320] >> Yeah. So there's his ID. And if if you
[01:40:49.040] see here, it says uh squadron C6.
[01:40:53.440] And that's not an actual uh squadron
[01:40:56.400] that flew.
[01:41:01.520] >> Wow.
[01:41:02.239] >> Yeah. So, the last name's different.
[01:41:03.600] Obviously, it's not field.
[01:41:05.280] >> Yeah.
[01:41:07.679] >> That's amazing.
[01:41:11.840] >> Interesting.
[01:41:12.480] >> Very interesting.
[01:41:13.360] >> Yeah. So, he he might have known more
[01:41:15.199] than uh I believe his mother was also
[01:41:17.440] stationed there near Roswell and
[01:41:19.040] >> Oh,
[01:41:19.440] >> so yeah.
[01:41:21.119] >> Interesting. uh interesting tidbits.
[01:41:23.119] >> Very interesting.
[01:41:24.719] >> Um were you ever tasked,
[01:41:28.639] you know, because we we hear this uh you
[01:41:31.119] know whether it's you know I interviewed
[01:41:32.880] uh John Ramirez who was here as well
[01:41:34.719] who's you know ex CIA Lou Alzando and we
[01:41:37.360] know for a fact now that
[01:41:39.600] >> you're never
[01:41:41.360] fully an ex information agent, you know
[01:41:45.520] what I mean?
[01:41:46.639] Were there ever instances where you were
[01:41:48.239] called upon, and I'm not going to, you
[01:41:49.840] know, ask you for specifics that those
[01:41:51.440] are classified, but were there ever
[01:41:52.880] instances that you were called upon
[01:41:55.360] after you left the OSI that had to do
[01:41:58.560] with UFOs?
[01:42:00.080] >> Yes.
[01:42:00.960] >> Okay. Um, would that be
[01:42:05.280] prior to 2015 or after?
[01:42:10.159] >> Prior.
[01:42:10.800] >> Prior. Never after.
[01:42:12.159] >> No, never after.
[01:42:13.199] >> Okay. And this was between 2002, 2003
[01:42:16.159] and 2015 somewhere in there where you
[01:42:17.920] would
[01:42:18.480] >> I left government service in 1988.
[01:42:21.520] I was recalled in 1991.
[01:42:24.080] >> Okay.
[01:42:24.960] >> To work on a project and again in '94
[01:42:29.280] and then um
[01:42:32.400] after 2002 I was a contract employee for
[01:42:36.880] a while.
[01:42:38.480] >> You were contract employee for the OSI.
[01:42:42.159] Just we'll leave it at US intelligence.
[01:42:44.719] >> At US intelligence. Uh and it had to do
[01:42:46.800] with the UFO topic.
[01:42:49.040] >> Not all of it. Um
[01:42:53.679] I would say 50/50. Was that in a
[01:42:57.360] monitoring capacity or in a
[01:43:01.040] sort of did you have to inject yourself
[01:43:03.600] into this in order to uh
[01:43:08.000] you know throw throw some information
[01:43:10.000] into the mix that perhaps wasn't true?
[01:43:12.719] >> No.
[01:43:14.239] >> Um I worked for Dr. Putoff from 94 to
[01:43:19.119] 2007.
[01:43:20.800] >> I see.
[01:43:21.760] >> And so I see I'll leave it at that.
[01:43:24.000] >> I understand. Okay. Someone else was
[01:43:25.920] interested in how put offs work.
[01:43:28.800] >> Okay. Wow. Interesting. Would Hal be
[01:43:31.199] aware of that, you think?
[01:43:32.000] >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
[01:43:33.920] >> Smart guy.
[01:43:35.040] >> Very smart.
[01:43:36.080] >> Brilliant person.
[01:43:37.040] >> Yeah. Can't put much past him.
[01:43:38.639] >> No.
[01:43:39.199] >> How many saps do you think he was right
[01:43:40.560] into?
[01:43:42.400] >> Oh, god.
[01:43:44.480] You know, it was so much when I first
[01:43:46.960] started working for him. Uh, I didn't
[01:43:50.560] have a I it took for a while for me to
[01:43:52.960] get a DARPA clearance. Okay. And he
[01:43:56.400] would be working on things in his own
[01:43:58.080] skiff and and I would he would tease me
[01:44:01.520] but he would never tell me but um when I
[01:44:05.600] got the clearance um I it was only on a
[01:44:09.199] need to know. Uh there were times when I
[01:44:11.920] would go into the skiff and there would
[01:44:13.360] be a meeting and we'd sit and talk and
[01:44:15.840] then there would you know we'd talk for
[01:44:18.320] an hour the scientist and his other
[01:44:20.480] techs and then he'd say Rick bye and I'd
[01:44:24.719] leave and then we're working on
[01:44:26.639] something that I didn't have access to.
[01:44:28.239] I just didn't have a know. But um I I I
[01:44:32.080] would say dozens and and probably more
[01:44:35.840] he had
[01:44:37.119] >> and and this isn't a secret but he had
[01:44:40.719] or proprietary because there a lot of
[01:44:42.320] things I can't talk about.
[01:44:44.080] >> He had um
[01:44:46.880] in a certain area of the lab um
[01:44:51.440] pieces of extraterrestrial material that
[01:44:54.400] he was trying to figure out. And is that
[01:44:57.119] part of the reason why you were
[01:44:58.480] contracted?
[01:45:00.800] >> Um,
[01:45:04.800] partially.
[01:45:05.440] >> No, partially. I It was be because of my
[01:45:08.560] uh counter intelligence work and and
[01:45:11.520] what I could do and what I could uh
[01:45:14.159] because a lot of what I did was I went
[01:45:16.000] out to talk to people. He would send me
[01:45:17.920] out to interview people that had some
[01:45:20.560] connections. Uh I interviewed uh you
[01:45:24.159] know we went to South Dakota and I went
[01:45:26.239] to South Dakota with some other people
[01:45:27.920] from the lab to dug up something because
[01:45:30.239] in 19
[01:45:32.639] 58 I think it was um can't remember what
[01:45:36.719] year but in the 50s or early 60s UFO had
[01:45:40.719] crashed on this uh uh ranchers uh land
[01:45:45.040] and he never told anybody about it. He
[01:45:47.600] buried it.
[01:45:48.320] >> No way.
[01:45:49.280] >> Yeah. He buried it. And his grandson
[01:45:52.719] is the one that got a hold of somebody
[01:45:55.360] who got a hold of somebody who got a
[01:45:57.040] hold of Dr. Putoff. And then I was the
[01:45:59.920] one that went to um South Dakota to try
[01:46:03.840] to find what what did you bury? And the
[01:46:07.119] the the only thing that the grandson
[01:46:10.000] knew because the the his grandfather was
[01:46:13.840] dead and his father was dead. It was
[01:46:15.280] just a grandson.
[01:46:16.239] >> Yeah. And it was that it was buried in
[01:46:18.639] this one area that there's no nothing
[01:46:21.199] grows around it.
[01:46:23.119] >> And they water it and water it and
[01:46:24.800] nothing grows. So this was the place. So
[01:46:29.360] we um
[01:46:31.679] that's about all I can talk about.
[01:46:35.679] Did you see anything?
[01:46:37.840] >> We saw a lot.
[01:46:39.280] >> You saw what they took out of the
[01:46:40.639] ground?
[01:46:42.639] Somebody somebody somebody saw what was
[01:46:45.360] taken out of the ground and some and it
[01:46:47.119] went someplace but but at that time it
[01:46:49.119] was turned over to the government,
[01:46:51.679] >> right, Pat?
[01:46:54.000] >> No, this was in uh
[01:46:56.480] >> No, it went to probably Groom Lake, I
[01:46:59.199] guess. No, this was in uh
[01:47:02.080] >> um
[01:47:04.639] 2002, I think. Or
[01:47:06.639] >> Okay. Wow.
[01:47:07.840] >> Yeah. Or no, 200. And the crash would
[01:47:11.760] have happened in in the 50s or early
[01:47:13.679] 60s.
[01:47:14.080] >> Yeah.
[01:47:14.560] >> Yeah.
[01:47:16.159] >> Is that near was that near any type of
[01:47:19.280] radar base?
[01:47:21.520] >> It was um
[01:47:25.119] south
[01:47:27.040] west corner of the state.
[01:47:29.920] Um
[01:47:32.800] south of Keystone was it was just Yeah.
[01:47:36.639] >> So
[01:47:37.119] >> was I don't you know there's Ellsworth
[01:47:38.960] Air Force Base. It's still there. Uh
[01:47:40.719] it's it was a couple hundred miles from
[01:47:43.280] there but um
[01:47:44.960] >> was um
[01:47:46.000] >> you know I think it was actually near um
[01:47:51.280] no later on a minute man site.
[01:47:55.360] >> Okay.
[01:47:56.000] >> But
[01:47:57.040] >> in the 50s I didn't have
[01:47:58.480] >> You didn't have one there.
[01:47:59.760] >> Well that's really interesting. And
[01:48:00.960] that's um so you weren't so you were
[01:48:04.560] right into that program. You were right
[01:48:06.000] into that recovery then. I guess
[01:48:08.480] >> I was right into Yeah.
[01:48:10.880] >> Well, partially. I I didn't handle
[01:48:13.840] anything. Yeah.
[01:48:14.880] >> I didn't analyze anything.
[01:48:17.760] >> Uh I just set everything up and then
[01:48:20.320] other people came in and did it.
[01:48:21.520] >> So, you had partial access.
[01:48:23.119] >> Yeah. Just limited.
[01:48:24.639] >> Limited. And how many
[01:48:28.639] limited partial accesses have you had to
[01:48:31.440] other crashes,
[01:48:33.440] would you say?
[01:48:35.440] >> Four, I guess. But that was that was
[01:48:38.560] during my OSI career. That was Yeah,
[01:48:40.960] that was in the 70s and 80s.
[01:48:42.320] >> So you had you had uh quite
[01:48:43.920] >> I was actually at one crash site. I was
[01:48:46.159] there.
[01:48:47.679] >> Uh and but the crash happened years
[01:48:52.239] before, but they found it. They
[01:48:54.639] discovered it and uh I went there uh as
[01:48:59.520] part of a team to do the counter
[01:49:02.400] intelligence work regarding the people
[01:49:04.880] that found the witness. But this crash
[01:49:07.360] site had was in 60 sometime in the 60s
[01:49:11.520] >> and it was undiscovered
[01:49:12.639] >> and un it was undiscovered and a mining
[01:49:16.480] uh uh exploration team from some company
[01:49:21.920] was doing work in this shaft and they
[01:49:25.600] found it in this minehaft
[01:49:28.639] and now that's another I mean I don't
[01:49:32.639] know anything other than they found it
[01:49:36.159] Um and what when we went there,
[01:49:39.040] >> you went on site.
[01:49:40.000] >> We went on site,
[01:49:42.560] it was assumed,
[01:49:45.280] uh because of of a lot of factors that
[01:49:48.639] the invest other investigators, not me,
[01:49:51.679] uh because of where it was that this
[01:49:54.560] thing had crashed
[01:49:57.199] here outside this minehaft and these
[01:50:00.080] miners didn't know what to do with it.
[01:50:01.520] So they put it in the mineshaft and you
[01:50:05.760] know they had it in there and I don't
[01:50:07.199] know why they never reported it to
[01:50:08.560] anybody or maybe they did. Uh there's no
[01:50:11.520] record that that I know of. Maybe there
[01:50:13.360] were records. I you know don't hold me
[01:50:15.280] to that because uh we went there and
[01:50:18.159] they had found it in the shaft
[01:50:20.480] >> and they extracted it
[01:50:21.600] >> and extracted it out. the government,
[01:50:23.679] the Dart Dart team, the Astar, special
[01:50:26.000] down aircraft recovery team did it and
[01:50:28.000] they pulled it out and you know they it
[01:50:31.840] took them I don't think they even got
[01:50:34.239] inside of it until they got it to Tonip.
[01:50:38.000] >> And now jump ahead when I was out there.
[01:50:41.040] This is before I went to Tonip I mean to
[01:50:44.480] uh uh Nellis Test and Training Range.
[01:50:47.040] Um, I checked on that while I was there.
[01:50:51.199] Uh, and they had they still had that
[01:50:53.280] craft there.
[01:50:54.000] >> The disc?
[01:50:55.280] >> The disc? Yeah, it was a disc. And And
[01:50:56.960] it was a small one. It was not that big.
[01:51:00.320] It it was uh
[01:51:02.159] >> You saw it?
[01:51:02.960] >> Yeah, I saw the craft. Yeah, it was
[01:51:04.400] there at the craft site and I saw him
[01:51:05.920] pull it out and it was it was a it was
[01:51:10.080] probably um 5t in diameter.
[01:51:15.040] So they think but they couldn't get into
[01:51:17.199] it. They can't they couldn't find an
[01:51:18.880] opening.
[01:51:19.199] >> So it was like a solid
[01:51:20.719] >> Yep. Well, they did eventually but not
[01:51:23.360] during that time when I was there. I
[01:51:25.920] didn't see anybody.
[01:51:26.800] >> How long did it take him to get in?
[01:51:28.159] >> I I don't know. Like I said, that was
[01:51:30.400] 1980 81.
[01:51:33.119] Uh I was there 84. They got it open four
[01:51:37.199] years, maybe three or four years. I
[01:51:39.679] don't know exactly how they did that.
[01:51:41.199] >> Plasma cutters or
[01:51:42.719] >> uh something. And and what I don't know
[01:51:46.400] is whether they found bodies in there.
[01:51:48.239] There would have had been many bodies. I
[01:51:50.639] mean, they might have had to be 2 ft
[01:51:52.080] tall.
[01:51:52.400] >> No, it was very small. It was like a a
[01:51:54.400] drone ship or something.
[01:51:55.520] >> It It could very well be. I think I
[01:51:57.920] think somebody told me uh that was
[01:52:00.320] probably a a scout ship.
[01:52:02.239] >> Mhm.
[01:52:02.800] >> That crashed for some reason. There was
[01:52:05.119] damage. It's funny because they couldn't
[01:52:07.760] get in it, but the part of it
[01:52:12.000] was indented. You know, I guess when it
[01:52:14.800] hit the ground or I don't know exactly
[01:52:16.560] how, but there was part of it that was
[01:52:19.119] indented. So, you know, I I always, you
[01:52:22.800] know, of course, I don't know technology
[01:52:24.880] like others do, but why did it take them
[01:52:28.000] so long? I mean, we had diamond cutters
[01:52:30.480] and all sorts of things back in those
[01:52:32.800] days. Uh, but they they obviously got it
[01:52:35.520] open, but I don't know what they found
[01:52:36.719] in there. I wasn't ever privy to that.
[01:52:38.880] >> Was that the first time you saw with
[01:52:40.880] your own eyes?
[01:52:42.159] >> Yeah. UFO?
[01:52:44.400] >> Was that the last?
[01:52:45.920] >> No.
[01:52:48.480] >> Let's go. Tell me about another UFO you
[01:52:50.719] saw.
[01:52:50.960] >> Um,
[01:52:52.639] while I was at uh I can't I got to be
[01:52:55.119] very careful. Uh while I was at uh uh
[01:52:58.560] the the the
[01:53:00.639] story I gave you earlier about being on
[01:53:03.520] call and getting a call, I did. Uh me
[01:53:06.960] and my partner went out to a place
[01:53:09.360] outside uh the Nellis Tess and Training
[01:53:12.000] Range up near Warm Springs. Uh there had
[01:53:14.719] been a crash and um that's about all I
[01:53:18.400] can talk about it because there's a lot
[01:53:21.040] of other things that happened that uh
[01:53:24.960] could very well still be classified.
[01:53:27.840] >> Were there beings involved?
[01:53:29.199] >> Yes.
[01:53:29.679] >> You saw the beings?
[01:53:30.719] >> I didn't see the beings. No,
[01:53:31.920] >> you saw the
[01:53:32.719] >> beings were Well, let me say this. When
[01:53:35.599] I got there,
[01:53:36.480] >> it was cleaned up.
[01:53:37.360] >> It No, the bodies were covered.
[01:53:40.159] >> Oh, I see. So, I didn't actually I can't
[01:53:42.719] say, you know, I say, "Yeah, I saw the
[01:53:44.639] bodies." Well, no, wait. They covered.
[01:53:46.239] So, I'm not going to say that because I
[01:53:47.679] didn't see the bodies. I don't know what
[01:53:49.360] they they they looked probably five at
[01:53:51.520] least five foot. I'm just looking at
[01:53:53.199] >> Yeah. You assumed that those were alien
[01:53:54.560] bodies.
[01:53:55.040] >> Yeah, I assumed they were alien bodies.
[01:53:56.400] Yeah, they they were covered up. Uh the
[01:53:58.639] other agent that came later that had
[01:54:01.280] access to everything in the world about
[01:54:02.960] that, um he took over. I was just
[01:54:07.360] remember I was a duty on call and I went
[01:54:10.400] out there initially.
[01:54:11.920] >> I set up the counter intelligence ring
[01:54:14.159] as we called it.
[01:54:15.520] >> Uh the the uh highway pat the state
[01:54:19.599] trooper and the uh um
[01:54:24.800] NY County Sheriff's deputy that was on
[01:54:26.800] scene uh because
[01:54:29.040] >> you had to debrief them. Yeah, I did all
[01:54:31.199] that stuff.
[01:54:32.320] >> And um
[01:54:35.679] the
[01:54:37.280] they contracted a trucking company
[01:54:40.719] uh out of um
[01:54:45.119] Hawthorne, Nevada
[01:54:48.560] to come and put it on a flatbed.
[01:54:52.320] The I guess we didn't have one. I
[01:54:54.400] government didn't have and I had to make
[01:54:56.639] that arrangements with that trucking
[01:54:58.639] company. Um, and I had to make sure that
[01:55:01.760] the driver,
[01:55:03.679] this is funny, when I was making the
[01:55:06.400] arrangements. Um, this is Hawthorne and
[01:55:10.080] there's an army base there at Hawthorne
[01:55:12.080] in Nevada. It's a depot where they make
[01:55:14.400] bombs. And so this trucking company
[01:55:16.880] worked out there a lot.
[01:55:18.560] >> They're used to classified scenarios
[01:55:20.719] >> or or sensitive. Yeah.
[01:55:21.840] >> Sensitive. Yeah. So, I said, "I need a a
[01:55:23.840] driver that has had been in the military
[01:55:26.960] uh and I can take orders." And the woman
[01:55:30.320] I was coordinating this with said,
[01:55:33.040] "Why?"
[01:55:34.880] Because I just need it or we'll have to
[01:55:37.280] go to another trucking company. She
[01:55:38.960] said, "We we we take bombs all the time
[01:55:41.679] out to Hawthorne." And and I said,
[01:55:43.760] "Listen, man. This is what I need." So,
[01:55:46.800] I get this guy. He's the foreman of the
[01:55:50.960] of a certain section of the trucking
[01:55:53.199] company. He uh you know I I go there and
[01:55:56.800] I sit him down. I said, "You're gonna
[01:55:58.320] you're gonna pick something up and
[01:55:59.360] you're going to take it from here to
[01:56:00.719] there?" And he said, "Okay." I said,
[01:56:03.520] "You you know, you you can't ask
[01:56:05.280] question." My lips are sealed. I said,
[01:56:08.239] "So
[01:56:09.760] you agree to do this? You agree to sign
[01:56:11.679] this?" He said, "I've done it before." I
[01:56:14.080] said, "You've done it before?" He said,
[01:56:15.599] "Yeah." you talking about the these
[01:56:17.440] round things? And I said,
[01:56:21.040] "What? What do you mean round things?"
[01:56:22.480] He said, "Well, before I took picked up
[01:56:24.639] a round thing and took it out out to the
[01:56:26.560] base."
[01:56:28.800] >> Okay, you're the guy.
[01:56:30.400] >> Wow.
[01:56:30.880] >> You're the guy I want. And so he, you
[01:56:33.280] know, he went and did did the thing.
[01:56:35.599] There was
[01:56:36.320] >> You watch it happen.
[01:56:37.679] >> No, no, no. The other agent that was in
[01:56:40.080] charge of that. I did all this setup.
[01:56:42.000] All
[01:56:42.159] >> the paperwork stuff, all the setup. I
[01:56:43.920] did not I was not there during that
[01:56:45.520] time.
[01:56:45.760] >> That's what counter intelligence Yeah.
[01:56:47.440] does. They funnel all the information.
[01:56:49.440] You create the classifications. You talk
[01:56:51.920] to you debrief the people, give them
[01:56:53.679] cover stories, tell the agents what to
[01:56:55.840] tell the press, like that type of thing,
[01:56:57.599] right?
[01:56:57.920] >> Exactly. And the the craft itself,
[01:57:01.040] that's the other guys.
[01:57:03.599] >> Did you have conversations with those
[01:57:05.040] guys?
[01:57:06.320] >> I would have to coordinate. Yeah, it
[01:57:07.599] would be coordination.
[01:57:08.639] >> I mean, philosophical conversations.
[01:57:12.239] Um,
[01:57:12.639] >> did you guys speak about the origins?
[01:57:14.159] Did you guys speak about, you know, what
[01:57:16.000] you think it is like off record? Like,
[01:57:18.400] >> of course.
[01:57:19.280] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[01:57:21.280] >> And And were they able to give you
[01:57:23.920] information that you had never even
[01:57:26.080] thought of or did they seem legitimately
[01:57:29.280] like
[01:57:31.119] really wellversed in this topic? like
[01:57:32.880] they like they had information that was
[01:57:37.119] really pertinent to this like like
[01:57:38.800] origin or reason or you know whom, why,
[01:57:41.520] where, what like all these speculative
[01:57:44.000] things that we talk about. Did you get
[01:57:45.840] access to some of that?
[01:57:46.880] >> No.
[01:57:47.199] >> Through those conversations,
[01:57:48.880] >> we would talk philosophically,
[01:57:51.520] but I didn't have a need to know.
[01:57:54.239] >> Right. So, it was all
[01:57:55.040] >> that information. And I tell you what,
[01:57:56.960] with the intelligence community, I don't
[01:57:58.480] care if you're my best friend. Uh, you
[01:58:01.119] might be able to take a bullet for me.
[01:58:03.199] You know, we wore guns, too. Remember?
[01:58:05.599] Uh, but I I'm not gonna I'm not gonna
[01:58:08.480] tell you something.
[01:58:09.199] >> Yeah. You're not gonna break your not
[01:58:10.960] going to do that. And that's the way it
[01:58:12.639] was. Uh, we would talk philosophically.
[01:58:15.199] >> You talk about aliens
[01:58:16.159] >> about Yeah. Like, you know, these guys I
[01:58:19.199] I bet you there are I bet there's a base
[01:58:21.119] on Mars or, you know, we or maybe maybe
[01:58:24.560] uh Venus isn't what it, you know, things
[01:58:26.719] like that. We would talk about
[01:58:28.639] >> where they come from. Maybe they're
[01:58:30.400] coming from Mars, maybe they're coming
[01:58:32.400] from uh Pluto, you know, things like
[01:58:35.040] that we would talk about, but they would
[01:58:37.280] never say, "No, they they came from, you
[01:58:39.840] know, uh Epsilon uh already or some, you
[01:58:43.280] know, no, they would never say that."
[01:58:44.880] >> Okay,
[01:58:47.440] man. Does that What does that feel like
[01:58:50.080] seeing something like that? Well, going
[01:58:52.639] all the way back to my briefing and not
[01:58:55.599] not believing any of it, uh, every
[01:58:58.560] single
[01:59:00.239] uh time I was exposed to an
[01:59:03.920] extraterrestrial craft or something to
[01:59:07.199] do with an extraterrestrial being. Um,
[01:59:11.199] it strengthened my belief that
[01:59:13.199] everything that I was briefed on is is
[01:59:14.960] fact.
[01:59:17.119] But what did that feel like?
[01:59:19.760] scary in a way because
[01:59:22.507] [clears throat] one of the things uh
[01:59:24.639] that people don't like to talk about, I
[01:59:26.719] don't like to talk about it in great
[01:59:28.320] details is I was brought up a Catholic.
[01:59:32.159] Um I went to progill school. I was an
[01:59:35.280] older boy. Um I believed in God and you
[01:59:39.119] know did my prayers and and did my all
[01:59:41.840] my uh you know confraternity and and
[01:59:44.000] everything. and um
[01:59:47.119] um I spent some time in a monastery
[01:59:49.280] before I even went to high school. So I
[01:59:52.400] I had a strong religious belief. Now
[01:59:56.719] one of the questions that people always
[01:59:58.719] ask me and I ask myself is okay, God
[02:00:02.639] created the universe, so I guess he
[02:00:04.320] created the aliens, too. Did he?
[02:00:08.960] Um, some of the things we learned or
[02:00:12.000] Linda How was written about EBA 1. Uh,
[02:00:16.639] he claims that they put a uh, Eban on a
[02:00:21.599] humanoid on a planet 2,000 years ago.
[02:00:24.320] Was that Jesus? You know, these
[02:00:26.639] questions I have always had. And when
[02:00:29.679] when I had the briefing, I have to, you
[02:00:32.000] know, okay, wait a minute. Is this for
[02:00:34.800] real? Okay, it's for real.
[02:00:38.080] it are these things made by God? This is
[02:00:40.639] something I think about and other people
[02:00:42.719] have too. And if you connect the dots,
[02:00:46.239] could it affect the way other people
[02:00:48.800] believe in their religion? And that's
[02:00:51.840] something I really don't like to get
[02:00:53.440] into. I mean, I I've settled myself, but
[02:00:57.760] there were other people out there that
[02:00:59.760] uh you know, the the revelation that
[02:01:02.080] this guy several years ago uh did on a
[02:01:05.599] UFO convention that some of the
[02:01:07.679] extraterrestrial characters are similar
[02:01:10.320] to Tibetan uh characters. What does that
[02:01:14.159] mean? That they lived here on Earth or
[02:01:16.320] they they created the Tibetans or what?
[02:01:18.960] you know this is all these questions uh
[02:01:21.840] that uh that people have to think about.
[02:01:27.440] Yeah, it is uh it is pretty it does get
[02:01:31.360] pretty existential
[02:01:33.520] when you start thinking about that and
[02:01:35.360] thinking about uh
[02:01:38.880] you know the uh what that means
[02:01:42.639] for us here, why we're here, why they
[02:01:46.560] want to be here with us or why their
[02:01:49.199] presence is here. And I'm looking at the
[02:01:51.520] list as I speak to you here of like
[02:01:54.080] these different these different names
[02:01:57.040] And um
[02:01:59.440] I I have no idea what to make of this.
[02:02:03.199] Like personally, I I don't know what to
[02:02:05.119] make of any of this. What to make of
[02:02:06.960] because, you know, as you can probably
[02:02:09.599] assume, someone who's very wellversed in
[02:02:12.800] counter intelligence. I'm a magician.
[02:02:15.679] probably the most skeptical person out
[02:02:17.280] there in terms of you know understanding
[02:02:20.000] methodry in terms of um you know all all
[02:02:24.800] the um all the methods on how to obtain
[02:02:28.239] information secretly or how to misdirect
[02:02:31.920] and all of this you know I'm given all
[02:02:34.400] this everything you're telling me and
[02:02:37.119] it's a melting pot of a thousand
[02:02:41.040] different things
[02:02:43.840] with all the years that you have, you
[02:02:46.480] know, built into this and all the
[02:02:48.080] information that you've gathered, all
[02:02:49.360] the secret things that you've seen that
[02:02:50.639] you can't talk about and the people
[02:02:51.920] you've spoken with and the projects
[02:02:53.360] you've worked on.
[02:02:56.639] Is there
[02:02:58.480] one overarching
[02:03:01.599] thing that neatly packages everything?
[02:03:04.400] Allah um you know passport to Meonia
[02:03:08.080] Jacqu Valet control system or are we
[02:03:11.040] dealing with like a thousand separate
[02:03:13.520] things?
[02:03:15.440] >> Separate things.
[02:03:16.480] >> You think so? I think the one
[02:03:19.520] the one thing that convinced me
[02:03:23.920] uh beyond anything else that I had
[02:03:25.920] access to was listening to this Air
[02:03:29.440] Force sergeant uh female who was
[02:03:32.719] abducted countless times. Went through
[02:03:35.440] literally torture by these
[02:03:37.040] extraterrestrials having marks on her
[02:03:39.440] hands. They took her fingernails off,
[02:03:41.760] her toenails off. Uh she was bleeding
[02:03:44.480] from her vaginal area almost every after
[02:03:46.960] every abductions. Uh bleeding from the
[02:03:50.000] eye. Um rupturion her eard drum once. Um
[02:03:56.159] and then the a lot of things that we did
[02:04:00.639] uh in a surveillance
[02:04:03.920] uh capacity
[02:04:05.920] to confirm what she says. Uh that
[02:04:09.840] convinced me that there are
[02:04:12.639] they weren't humans doing this to her.
[02:04:16.560] They were extraterrestrials. Now were
[02:04:20.000] the extraterrestrials interdimensional?
[02:04:21.840] I don't know. Uh you know, there's an
[02:04:23.679] argument can be made, but there were
[02:04:27.040] there were nonhumans doing this to her.
[02:04:30.159] And I wish I could tell you how we know,
[02:04:34.159] but believe me, the government knows
[02:04:36.239] that these were extraterrestrials that
[02:04:38.639] were doing this to her.
[02:04:39.760] >> You surveiled it.
[02:04:42.560] >> There was We actually did. We had a We
[02:04:47.599] knew based on a lot of things that I
[02:04:50.320] can't talk about, methods and sources I
[02:04:52.719] can't ever talk about, but we knew when
[02:04:56.480] they were going to do this to her. She
[02:04:58.880] lived in an apartment complex outside
[02:05:02.239] Kirtland Air Force Base. She was
[02:05:03.520] stationed at Kirtland and
[02:05:06.719] she uh lived in a two-story real small
[02:05:10.239] apartment and she her bedroom was
[02:05:12.239] upstairs and we knew uh that she would
[02:05:16.880] be taken uh during a time period and we
[02:05:21.199] set up a surveillance
[02:05:23.760] and that's about all I can say.
[02:05:27.920] That's a fact. And she's a
[02:05:29.360] whistleblower.
[02:05:30.880] And she would be the number one person I
[02:05:34.239] would put in front of a camera if I was
[02:05:37.760] a member of Congress. She is a
[02:05:39.920] legitimate whistleblower. She's she
[02:05:43.280] retired from the military. She's a
[02:05:45.599] grandmother now. She she taught school
[02:05:48.320] for some some time. She lives around the
[02:05:51.520] DC area. Uh I'm sorry. She lives around
[02:05:55.280] the uh Baltimore area. Um but she has
[02:06:00.000] been interviewed by uh many of the US
[02:06:04.880] representatives and and and at least two
[02:06:07.760] senators and some of their staff. So
[02:06:10.480] she's legitimate.
[02:06:15.920] Whoa.
[02:06:17.760] >> Now the problem [laughter] is what
[02:06:21.119] happens when she tells her story. uh you
[02:06:24.080] know Steven Greer is a friend a nice
[02:06:27.119] person I've worked with him before but
[02:06:31.119] his his uh mentality regarding they
[02:06:35.599] can't be hostile they're all benevolent
[02:06:38.800] is absolutely out out the window and
[02:06:41.040] I've told him this to his face I said
[02:06:42.960] Stephen you're relying on faulty
[02:06:44.639] information you're being misinformed and
[02:06:47.920] and I'm telling you from a listen to me
[02:06:50.239] because I'm a counter intelligence
[02:06:52.000] officer people within your circle is are
[02:06:54.800] misinforming you because there are
[02:06:57.520] hostile extraterrestrials out there and
[02:07:00.159] that's the ones we have to worry about
[02:07:02.960] >> and you've seen this firsthand.
[02:07:04.960] >> I've saw this firsthand.
[02:07:09.440] >> I have so many questions that you can't
[02:07:10.639] answer.
[02:07:11.040] >> Well, well,
[02:07:13.119] I've seen
[02:07:15.199] her sitting in front of me talking uh
[02:07:18.560] about this, you know, as far as
[02:07:20.719] firsthand. No, we I wasn't there when
[02:07:22.880] she was doing, you know, how this stuff
[02:07:24.239] was happening.
[02:07:24.960] >> But you saw the surveillance images or
[02:07:27.679] sorry, the surveillance
[02:07:30.079] um apparatus, whatever that was. Um
[02:07:33.679] whether they filmed it or whether they I
[02:07:35.840] don't know, but you saw that.
[02:07:38.560] >> I was involved with it. Yes.
[02:07:39.920] >> You were involved with it with like
[02:07:41.760] setting up the surveillance.
[02:07:44.239] >> Yes.
[02:07:45.199] >> And you had enough to go on.
[02:07:49.440] First of all, how you knew that was
[02:07:51.840] going to happen is a whole other
[02:07:53.119] discussion that I'm sure you can't have.
[02:07:54.560] >> No. And because I didn't know
[02:07:57.040] >> what the protocol was,
[02:07:57.840] >> the technical stuff,
[02:07:59.040] >> but they knew.
[02:07:59.840] >> Yeah. We had Air Force, Intel, we had
[02:08:02.560] FBI, we had uh OSI, we had NSA,
[02:08:07.199] all part of this because
[02:08:10.800] the in order to if you can imagine uh in
[02:08:16.000] order to understand
[02:08:18.639] something that's alien to us, we have to
[02:08:21.520] have the top technical people within the
[02:08:24.800] NSA and and these other uh agencies
[02:08:28.320] involved to create something, to build
[02:08:31.119] something. Plus, there were contractors
[02:08:34.239] involved in this, too.
[02:08:36.880] >> So, this is a multi-pronged,
[02:08:39.040] multifaceted, multi-ep departmented
[02:08:42.800] sting operation
[02:08:44.719] in order to capture this
[02:08:47.840] on some type of media that you can then
[02:08:52.239] review.
[02:08:54.079] And it was successful.
[02:08:56.320] It was yes that was successful. There
[02:08:59.599] were some that weren't but that was what
[02:09:01.760] was successful.
[02:09:04.960] Were obviously she was made aware and
[02:09:07.520] she was part of this operation.
[02:09:09.119] >> Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Absolutely.
[02:09:10.880] >> And
[02:09:13.599] I mean did you get to interview her
[02:09:15.440] after?
[02:09:16.639] >> Yeah. We thwarted the She didn't she
[02:09:19.920] wasn't abducted that that that night.
[02:09:21.599] >> You thwarted it?
[02:09:22.639] >> Yeah. We prevented it based on all this
[02:09:26.800] stuff and we got her out and we got her
[02:09:30.079] to a safe location because
[02:09:33.520] there was always doubt
[02:09:36.320] not in my mind but
[02:09:39.599] other people's mind there was an FBI
[02:09:41.520] agent working on this and he he didn't
[02:09:43.920] believe words she said even after apolog
[02:09:47.599] he he was just I don't believe any of
[02:09:49.920] this stuff but after that night.
[02:09:54.159] He sat in a I'm not exaggerating a bit.
[02:09:56.719] He sat in a room when we had her at out
[02:09:59.760] at the base. It wasn't OSI office. It
[02:10:01.520] was a very sec another secure facility
[02:10:03.679] out at the base because we didn't know
[02:10:04.880] if this these things were coming after.
[02:10:06.800] But we were in a protected area at the
[02:10:09.840] at the base. It was a Sandy laboratories
[02:10:12.320] area and FBI agent sat in a room uh
[02:10:16.639] crying
[02:10:18.159] because he didn't he doubted her. He
[02:10:20.560] said, "All these year, all this time,
[02:10:22.079] all these, you know, eight months or
[02:10:23.599] whatever it was, I doubted her and she's
[02:10:26.079] telling the truth."
[02:10:26.960] >> So, she felt bad.
[02:10:29.599] >> I see. I believed her. He didn't. He was
[02:10:33.119] always He was always skeptical about
[02:10:35.440] everything. This is
[02:10:36.480] >> rightfully so. I think that
[02:10:37.679] >> Yeah. Right. Rightfully so. And
[02:10:42.880] he had a lot of background. Um,
[02:10:46.079] you know, he was a U
[02:10:48.639] Vietnam vet. Uh, he was in a special uh
[02:10:53.040] or the steadius operations group. Uh, I
[02:10:56.320] don't know if you know what that is in
[02:10:57.599] Vietnam. The guys worked behind the
[02:10:59.679] lines, you know, they drop him off in
[02:11:01.840] Laos and, you know, for 100 days or
[02:11:04.880] whatever it was. I mean, he went through
[02:11:06.560] a lot this guy and and he is a tough,
[02:11:08.880] rugged FBI agent, but he had a, you
[02:11:14.560] know, he it changed him. It actually
[02:11:17.840] changed because I worked with him after
[02:11:19.280] that on other cases, including the uh
[02:11:22.159] Paul Benowitz's case, and um he was a
[02:11:25.599] different person as as I saw in other
[02:11:29.199] people who worked that operation. Uh
[02:11:33.679] they they
[02:11:37.040] I think a lot of them were scared.
[02:11:41.280] I mean,
[02:11:45.119] if you see something that's literally
[02:11:48.800] out of this world and your mind can't
[02:11:53.119] comprehend it because if you if you go
[02:11:56.239] into something and you just like a
[02:11:58.079] child, they they did the experiments
[02:12:00.800] with child putting them in a hostile
[02:12:03.199] envir not a hostile environment, a
[02:12:04.639] strange envir. They can't comprehend,
[02:12:06.800] you know, and and humans are same, you
[02:12:08.639] know, we were the same way. We can't
[02:12:10.639] comprehend what we're seeing or how how
[02:12:14.800] we're going to rectify it when you
[02:12:17.599] you're you're given and regardless of
[02:12:19.840] the training because we went through a
[02:12:22.000] lot of training a really good training
[02:12:24.320] in the intelligence operations course. I
[02:12:26.800] mean, they would put you in a situation,
[02:12:28.239] not UFO situations or anything like
[02:12:29.920] that, but they would put you in
[02:12:31.599] situations where there's no no wind, but
[02:12:34.400] they made you go all the way up to the
[02:12:36.800] end and you you figure you're going to
[02:12:38.800] die, you know, in in the exercise or
[02:12:40.560] something, but they do this over and
[02:12:43.199] over and over and over again. Stress
[02:12:45.679] inoculation. Yeah, exactly. I was just
[02:12:48.239] going to say stress inoculation. So,
[02:12:51.199] when you're out doing the job in the
[02:12:53.040] real field, nothing's going to bother
[02:12:55.360] you. nothing's going to scare you. But
[02:12:57.920] regardless, I mean, not much scares me.
[02:13:00.000] Uh, but after that, seeing what I saw or
[02:13:03.199] listening to her tell her stories, you
[02:13:06.000] know, I'm thinking, "Wow, sure. I hope
[02:13:08.560] that doesn't happen to my girlfriend or
[02:13:11.360] then I wasn't married or my mother or my
[02:13:14.000] sister." I mean, why are they picking on
[02:13:16.960] her? and you know all these that you
[02:13:19.760] worried about yourself
[02:13:22.239] and why why they pick her? That's the
[02:13:24.639] the question that I I don't know the the
[02:13:27.360] answer to. I'm sure maybe the government
[02:13:29.040] does.
[02:13:29.520] >> Are they on here?
[02:13:31.440] >> Yeah, they're on there.
[02:13:32.719] >> Which ones are they?
[02:13:34.480] >> Uh the hepoids,
[02:13:37.840] the uh I'm sorry, let me show you the
[02:13:40.400] insect ones. Quatilloids.
[02:13:42.159] >> The ones that look like insects. Yeah,
[02:13:45.280] >> those were the ones that were
[02:13:47.760] >> but this is a complicated part of it.
[02:13:50.880] They are able to manipulate your
[02:13:54.560] observation of them. I mean
[02:13:56.880] >> sure
[02:13:57.520] >> they can manipulate mine.
[02:13:59.199] >> Can they manipulate the camera?
[02:14:02.560] >> I don't know. Never thought of that.
[02:14:05.520] >> So was there something that you saw in
[02:14:09.040] that operation?
[02:14:11.040] >> I can't talk about Okay. what I saw.
[02:14:14.320] >> Um,
[02:14:14.880] >> but I can tell you they they're real.
[02:14:18.800] >> Can I Um,
[02:14:21.760] okay. So, they're not the the
[02:14:23.199] quadaloids, these ones.
[02:14:24.639] >> Yeah,
[02:14:24.880] >> the aliens, the insect humanoid types.
[02:14:28.159] >> Yes.
[02:14:29.760] >> Um, it says they have a high IQ.
[02:14:33.679] Why would something with a high IQ be so
[02:14:35.599] violent? That's trying to get inside an
[02:14:38.079] alien mind, and we can't do that.
[02:14:39.518] [laughter]
[02:14:40.400] >> I'm going to show you something. You can
[02:14:42.320] have this. This is yours.
[02:14:43.599] >> Okay.
[02:14:45.280] I'm going to show you something. Um,
[02:14:52.639] okay.
[02:14:57.520] Wow.
[02:14:59.280] Does that look like something you've
[02:15:00.320] seen before?
[02:15:01.840] >> I can't say.
[02:15:03.599] >> I think you just did.
[02:15:08.000] Was that
[02:15:09.840] >> in pictures in in a document? Not not
[02:15:12.159] not in real life.
[02:15:13.520] >> Is that the same thing that was involved
[02:15:15.119] here or is that different?
[02:15:18.719] >> I better not say.
[02:15:20.719] >> Okay.
[02:15:22.320] >> No, I'm not going to say.
[02:15:23.679] >> Okay.
[02:15:24.560] >> Is that going to be on your air?
[02:15:26.320] >> Uh, that hasn't been made public.
[02:15:30.000] >> Okay.
[02:15:30.800] >> Yeah.
[02:15:31.199] >> You're going to make it public?
[02:15:32.639] >> Um, not anytime soon.
[02:15:35.440] >> Okay. No, I better not say that.
[02:15:36.880] >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, so if I didn't make it
[02:15:39.840] public, you could confirm or deny
[02:15:41.599] >> probably. Okay. Well,
[02:15:43.760] >> maybe one day.
[02:15:46.000] >> Um, that's Should we take a break?
[02:15:47.920] >> Let's take a break. All right. That's a
[02:15:49.440] good time for a break.
[02:15:50.800] >> Okay. I mean, we're to transition from
[02:15:52.880] something like that. It's just so
[02:15:55.679] jarring to hear that to I've never once
[02:15:58.639] heard of an abduction being thwarted. I
[02:16:02.639] think that's a new one for me. You know,
[02:16:04.159] I've um we we hear about abductions.
[02:16:08.159] We hear about people trying to film them
[02:16:10.560] unsuccessfully. Something always goes
[02:16:12.960] wrong. Murphy's Law, some type of, you
[02:16:16.639] know, whether that's people at
[02:16:18.159] Skinwalker Ranch filming stuff and
[02:16:19.920] things going haywire. And um but never
[02:16:24.719] had it occurred to me that you know
[02:16:26.239] other than the instances of people
[02:16:28.400] saying you know uh sort of the Lord's
[02:16:31.679] name or something like you hear about
[02:16:33.359] stories like that and that sort of fends
[02:16:34.960] them off. Is that is there any merit to
[02:16:38.000] that?
[02:16:38.800] >> Well there there [clears throat] was
[02:16:40.479] part of that she she was religious um
[02:16:44.399] and she she wore uh St. Christopher's
[02:16:50.240] cross and but that didn't that didn't
[02:16:53.120] stop anything.
[02:16:54.000] >> Yeah.
[02:16:54.319] >> They they didn't seem to
[02:16:56.240] >> and there's a lot more. She she h she
[02:16:59.519] would argue uh with them. Uh this is in
[02:17:03.599] the beginning. Okay. We're going back
[02:17:05.599] months and months and months.
[02:17:06.960] >> Yeah.
[02:17:07.439] >> Uh when she first came to us,
[02:17:09.679] >> which
[02:17:11.359] we didn't believe her, I tell you the
[02:17:13.120] truth, we didn't believe her. Um she
[02:17:15.359] would tell us that she would have
[02:17:16.639] arguments with him uh because of God
[02:17:21.120] and um and they kept asking her who who
[02:17:25.280] is God who is God who is this human God
[02:17:29.920] and you know she couldn't explain
[02:17:33.280] uh so um
[02:17:36.639] but she would pray
[02:17:40.160] and afterwards she would say why are
[02:17:43.280] they doing this to me and again the
[02:17:46.080] government the air force um and
[02:17:49.469] [clears throat] let's let's say this the
[02:17:51.679] abduction started and she wasn't she
[02:17:53.679] didn't come to us right away she was
[02:17:56.399] going to uh the base uh hospital or the
[02:18:01.040] the sick call
[02:18:03.519] >> and she didn't know what it was she
[02:18:05.359] thought she was having dreams or you
[02:18:07.280] know what whatever it was but she was
[02:18:09.120] having you know fingernails were taken
[02:18:11.599] out well they thought they she was doing
[02:18:14.319] it to herself, you know, self
[02:18:16.559] mutilation.
[02:18:18.240] Um, she was in a a very sensitive uh uh
[02:18:22.800] career field. Uh, and so they were
[02:18:26.479] careful. She had PRP, so they were very
[02:18:28.880] careful of that of what she claims
[02:18:33.040] happening to her.
[02:18:34.880] So they took her off the job and put her
[02:18:38.160] in another in like an administrative
[02:18:40.000] office uh within her squadron and that
[02:18:44.240] upset her because you know she liked the
[02:18:46.719] job she was doing but these things were
[02:18:49.200] getting worse and worse. Finally, this
[02:18:52.639] doctor
[02:18:54.800] based uh physician who was an internist
[02:18:58.639] who had been co-opted by us because of
[02:19:01.040] other things um saw her and he
[02:19:05.599] immediately called us and that's how she
[02:19:07.599] became involved with the
[02:19:10.240] he said you need to interview this woman
[02:19:13.040] this girl this sergeant. Um I said okay.
[02:19:17.519] So uh me and this uh female agent
[02:19:21.679] interviewed her and u she never
[02:19:24.479] mentioned aliens or anything like that.
[02:19:26.000] Okay, nothing like that. She's saying
[02:19:28.479] this phenomena is occurring to her where
[02:19:31.439] somebody is taking her and doing all
[02:19:34.080] these things to her. Now at that at that
[02:19:37.439] time she was living on the base. She
[02:19:39.439] hadn't moved off the base yet. She's
[02:19:41.200] still living on the base. And I thought,
[02:19:44.160] well, you know, she lived in an all
[02:19:46.880] female back then. They weren't co-ed.
[02:19:49.680] She she lived in a female dorm. That was
[02:19:51.600] the only females in there. And there
[02:19:53.359] security, you know, keeping the men out,
[02:19:56.240] so to speak. It was like a house mother.
[02:19:58.479] And
[02:19:58.800] >> sure. Um I said, "Well, who's getting in
[02:20:02.000] your room? How how would they get in
[02:20:03.200] your room?" "I don't know." She says,
[02:20:05.200] "You know, we just couldn't understand.
[02:20:07.280] And why were they doing this to you?" At
[02:20:09.520] at that point it was the fingernails and
[02:20:12.319] the toenails
[02:20:13.359] >> that were removed
[02:20:14.479] >> being removed.
[02:20:15.280] >> All of them or just
[02:20:16.160] >> No, no, no. Just one or they would cut
[02:20:18.800] them
[02:20:20.640] and they would take one off and they
[02:20:22.240] they scrape the under under uh the the
[02:20:25.280] skin after the nail has been removed.
[02:20:28.399] And so we, you know, we checked with the
[02:20:30.240] bay. Why? Why would anybody be? Maybe
[02:20:32.560] somebody had a fetish. Uh there were
[02:20:36.240] perverts,
[02:20:37.280] >> deviant behavior.
[02:20:38.240] >> Deviant behavior. Some guy liked uh
[02:20:42.000] toenails. And what what you know and and
[02:20:44.800] we had all sorts of I mean we had our
[02:20:46.479] own sex on the OSI remember had a
[02:20:49.840] investigative side, a criminal
[02:20:51.359] investigation side. These guys
[02:20:53.280] investigated rapes. We you know get
[02:20:55.439] those experts in. I have no idea. I
[02:20:58.240] never heard of that. You know, you know,
[02:20:59.840] guys have, you know, people have
[02:21:02.160] fetishes and and perversions, but
[02:21:04.800] nothing about moving nails or anything
[02:21:06.800] like that. So, we couldn't figure it
[02:21:08.880] out, you know, and so then it would go,
[02:21:13.680] you know, four or five months and
[02:21:15.600] nothing and then it would happen again.
[02:21:18.319] And like I said, initially was just
[02:21:21.840] fingernails. Uh she did have her at one
[02:21:24.800] point her eard drum punctured
[02:21:28.479] her her right eard drum and then uh then
[02:21:31.920] it started getting worse. Then she went
[02:21:34.319] in one night to the emergency room the
[02:21:37.200] base hospital emergency room. She's
[02:21:39.120] bleeding from the vaginal area.
[02:21:42.399] Uh, she had holes
[02:21:46.240] poked between her on her left foot,
[02:21:49.600] between her big toe and her first toe,
[02:21:54.160] like somebody put a rod in there, but it
[02:21:57.359] wasn't bleeding.
[02:21:59.840] So, you know, the guy in the emergency
[02:22:03.200] room, of course, he's just a regular
[02:22:05.520] doctor. He couldn't figure it out. He
[02:22:07.280] calls OSI, the criminal people, because
[02:22:09.760] he said she'd been raped. Yeah.
[02:22:12.080] >> So they went through the whole rape
[02:22:13.600] protocol and call in a gynecologist and
[02:22:16.720] >> the gynecologist said
[02:22:20.080] no, she didn't have sex. Somebody
[02:22:23.359] inserted something into her vaginary.
[02:22:26.640] So at that time they admitted her
[02:22:28.880] because they were thoroughly convinced
[02:22:31.040] she was doing this to herself. Self
[02:22:33.439] mutilation.
[02:22:35.040] So she was in a hospital for I don't
[02:22:37.760] know how long. And we interviewed her,
[02:22:41.120] I think twice, maybe three times while
[02:22:43.120] she was in the hospital. And she was so
[02:22:45.200] upset because she said, "I'm not doing
[02:22:46.560] it to myself. I'm not doing it to
[02:22:48.399] myself." So then she they sent her down
[02:22:50.960] to um
[02:22:54.000] uh Shephard Air Force Base in Witchaw
[02:22:56.319] Falls. That's the Air Force Psychiatric
[02:22:58.720] Hospital down there. So they sent her
[02:23:01.359] down there to be thoroughly evaluated
[02:23:04.000] because they're saying she's nuts. So, I
[02:23:07.359] don't know how I don't remember how long
[02:23:08.720] she was down there, but a while. I you
[02:23:12.160] know, a couple months or something.
[02:23:13.760] Anyway, she comes back because the
[02:23:16.479] psychiatrist says there's nothing wrong
[02:23:17.760] with her. She's not do that. In fact, I
[02:23:20.880] read the psych psychiatric report from
[02:23:23.280] this uh psychiatrist. In fact, we had
[02:23:26.479] OSI at uh uh Shepard Air Force Base go
[02:23:32.319] talk to this psych psychiatrist who
[02:23:34.319] wrote this example. make sure that he
[02:23:36.880] was like
[02:23:37.600] >> it was a sound she or she and she said
[02:23:41.359] she's not doing it to herself. It's not
[02:23:43.600] self mutilation.
[02:23:45.439] Some outside entity is doing this. This
[02:23:47.840] is in in her report. And so we get it
[02:23:51.280] back and and I thought, wow. Well, then
[02:23:54.399] we thinking, well, she has a boyfriend
[02:23:56.000] that she doesn't and they're
[02:23:57.600] experimenting doing, you know,
[02:24:00.720] >> goofy things each other, you know. Um
[02:24:03.760] because in some uh relationships uh uh
[02:24:09.920] gay or even even heterero uh insertion
[02:24:13.600] of something into the cavities it can be
[02:24:16.319] you know a game or something. So we kind
[02:24:18.960] of thought that and we we brought her in
[02:24:20.560] for an interview and we and she admitted
[02:24:23.520] having a boyfriend having sex. She
[02:24:25.439] wasn't a virgin or anything like that,
[02:24:27.200] but her boyfriend uh belonged to this uh
[02:24:32.080] uh squadron. Um I can't remember the
[02:24:34.479] name of the that left
[02:24:37.359] went TDY or temporary duty all the time.
[02:24:39.760] I mean, he he'd come back for a while
[02:24:41.680] and he'd go I think he installed
[02:24:43.920] equipment or something like that.
[02:24:44.960] Anyways, so then we interviewed him. He
[02:24:48.720] didn't do anything like that. We made
[02:24:50.319] him do a polygraph. I mean, no, he never
[02:24:53.600] hurt her. He never harmed her. Um but he
[02:24:57.600] said
[02:24:59.520] he said at night, you know, she he would
[02:25:02.560] spend a night with her and um you know,
[02:25:06.000] after sex or something and then he go to
[02:25:08.720] sleep, but she'd she'd talk in her sleep
[02:25:11.120] or she'd scream in her sleep
[02:25:13.920] or she'd wake up
[02:25:16.319] uh and and yell and scream. many times
[02:25:19.840] he said this happened and he thought
[02:25:22.240] well somebody's in here or somebody's
[02:25:24.240] now he was going to her dorm room and
[02:25:26.560] you not supposed to happen you know so
[02:25:28.240] he thought that maybe somebody was
[02:25:29.840] trying to catch him doing something and
[02:25:32.160] that's one reason why they move she
[02:25:33.600] moved off base but well she made
[02:25:35.040] sergeant moved off base so these all
[02:25:38.720] things all these factors are building up
[02:25:41.760] and building up so um we we had we're at
[02:25:46.080] the point we don't really know what to
[02:25:48.000] do when so finally we asked her to take
[02:25:50.960] a polygraph
[02:25:52.880] and she took a polygraph she passed it
[02:25:56.880] and then we had to take now this is
[02:25:59.280] something I can't go in a great deal to
[02:26:02.080] deal with but we have this uh
[02:26:05.680] intelligence service has this hypnotic
[02:26:08.640] polygraph system that very very rarely
[02:26:11.359] is used where you put somebody on your
[02:26:13.520] hypnosis and you polygraph them. Okay.
[02:26:16.720] And it the technique I can't go into.
[02:26:19.680] I'm not a polygraph examiner, but
[02:26:21.439] there's certain people that have to do
[02:26:24.160] this. I mean, the just can't be a
[02:26:26.160] regular polygraph examiner. And most of
[02:26:28.560] ours were psychologists. Okay. Anyways,
[02:26:31.359] she went through that and and passed
[02:26:34.399] because
[02:26:35.920] according to them, not me, but according
[02:26:38.479] to them, when you're in hypnosis, you
[02:26:40.720] can't lie.
[02:26:42.399] >> So
[02:26:44.160] that you you can't
[02:26:46.560] You can't uh cheat a polygraph.
[02:26:48.319] >> You can't cheat a polygraph. Yeah.
[02:26:49.600] >> Yeah.
[02:26:50.640] >> So that sent the flag up and in and
[02:26:54.080] headquarters and everybody in DIA and
[02:26:56.560] that's when the full wrath
[02:27:00.000] of the government came in on her side.
[02:27:02.240] >> Whoa.
[02:27:05.200] And then that's where the sting
[02:27:06.479] operation began to get set up. Did they
[02:27:09.359] already have a protocol in place that
[02:27:12.399] they were going to act on?
[02:27:14.240] >> Yeah. So they already had something that
[02:27:16.000] was like kind of field tested.
[02:27:17.520] >> Yeah. But I don't know anything about
[02:27:18.720] that. I was never involved in any of
[02:27:20.080] that.
[02:27:20.399] >> Sure. But they came in. All right.
[02:27:22.319] Here's what we're going to do. We're
[02:27:23.439] going to set this up and do this this
[02:27:25.120] way. Briefed her on that and then
[02:27:29.200] and then it [clears throat] happened.
[02:27:30.640] >> Well, let me go back a little bit.
[02:27:33.280] >> Uh, one of the things they wanted when
[02:27:35.680] she she moved to off base apartment. It
[02:27:37.840] was just outside the base that that that
[02:27:40.800] a quarter mile out out the basin
[02:27:42.479] apartment complex.
[02:27:44.399] uh they wanted us to place um
[02:27:49.840] covert
[02:27:51.600] uh devices in in the place. Now we don't
[02:27:53.920] do that. We have a technical service
[02:27:56.080] people that do that. There's ways
[02:27:57.760] >> without her knowing.
[02:27:58.880] >> Without her knowing.
[02:28:00.160] >> Do you think if she knew it wouldn't
[02:28:02.640] work?
[02:28:03.680] >> Well, they they do. They did. They think
[02:28:05.920] that's the way they think
[02:28:07.200] >> that that like if she knew they knew.
[02:28:09.120] >> Yeah. But it's it's it's a divi it's a
[02:28:12.080] device that we can't ever use this in
[02:28:15.520] court. We can't use it against her in
[02:28:18.399] any kind of administrative. It's
[02:28:20.319] something that we're going to collect
[02:28:21.520] and keep and never tell her. Okay? Now,
[02:28:24.800] we do that a lot in a lot of cases in
[02:28:27.040] FISA warrants. If they're noncriminal
[02:28:29.359] FISA warrants, if I get a FISA warrant
[02:28:31.520] for your house, I'll place bugs in
[02:28:33.680] there, but it's only for counter
[02:28:35.040] intelligence collection. I'll I'll go
[02:28:37.040] and get
[02:28:37.439] >> Could never be used
[02:28:38.319] >> never being used in court. We go to a
[02:28:40.720] federal court and get a criminal warrant
[02:28:43.840] then that can be used against you.
[02:28:46.160] >> Sure. Yeah. Wire taps and
[02:28:47.600] >> wire taps and stuff. Yeah. Title threes,
[02:28:49.520] fours or fives. Anyways, so we we did
[02:28:54.000] that. We did what headquarters wanted us
[02:28:56.399] to do or OSI technicals.
[02:28:58.960] >> And this is uh video and audio
[02:29:00.640] recording. Uh, no it's just uh I think
[02:29:04.800] it's uh just audio first. I think it was
[02:29:08.240] just audio. I don't video came later but
[02:29:11.520] I think it was just audio initially and
[02:29:14.000] I think they they put in uh something
[02:29:16.240] else later but anyways the audio uh
[02:29:19.040] recorded everything uh and and well I
[02:29:23.600] can't go into details
[02:29:24.800] >> but you can hear the beings.
[02:29:26.160] >> You can hear voices. You can hear voices
[02:29:29.680] more than
[02:29:31.200] >> more than one.
[02:29:32.399] >> Male, female,
[02:29:34.000] >> um,
[02:29:34.640] >> indistinguishable.
[02:29:35.760] >> Undistinguishable. I don't I you know, I
[02:29:37.760] only heard a small portion, maybe 10.
[02:29:40.399] >> Oh my gosh. What was that like hearing
[02:29:41.840] that?
[02:29:42.399] >> Well, it
[02:29:43.120] >> is that frightening.
[02:29:44.319] >> Yeah, because it was echoing. It was
[02:29:46.720] like It was like somebody was talking
[02:29:48.720] through one of those uh you know those
[02:29:50.880] uh cheerleader.
[02:29:52.479] >> No, just a cheerleader uh
[02:29:54.800] >> you know cone. the phone, the old time
[02:29:57.439] cheerleader, not not the electric ones,
[02:29:59.520] >> like a tin cany sort of voice.
[02:30:01.680] >> Exactly. Yeah, that's a good good point.
[02:30:04.720] And um and then of course they analyzed
[02:30:07.680] all that the the pe the tech people. I
[02:30:09.760] didn't do any of that. And then later
[02:30:11.520] they put put the the the camera in, but
[02:30:14.080] it verified everything everything she
[02:30:16.560] was telling us is there.
[02:30:19.520] >> And that's why
[02:30:21.840] there's a lot of other steps that were
[02:30:23.680] taken. A lot of other people came in, a
[02:30:25.680] lot of other equipment was used and you
[02:30:27.520] know sources and methods and I'm not
[02:30:28.880] going to go into
[02:30:29.840] >> how clear was that footage.
[02:30:32.160] >> Um I never saw video. I saw only the
[02:30:35.359] audio. I heard the audio. I didn't see
[02:30:37.280] the video.
[02:30:37.840] >> Okay.
[02:30:38.880] >> But the audio was very convincing to me.
[02:30:41.439] >> There was more. The thing about it is
[02:30:44.640] it was like she was in a room
[02:30:48.000] full of people with these talking
[02:30:50.720] through cones. It wasn't just one voice.
[02:30:54.720] And I I thought, well, at first,
[02:30:56.479] >> they're speaking English.
[02:30:57.600] >> English. Yeah. Speaking
[02:31:00.080] >> broken English. How clear was it?
[02:31:02.399] >> As clear English as you and I speak or
[02:31:06.080] you speak, maybe I don't Whoa.
[02:31:07.600] >> No, it's it's it was English. And well,
[02:31:12.160] let me go back.
[02:31:15.120] We what we uh after we put the bug in
[02:31:18.319] and we heard this, they wanted us to go
[02:31:21.200] in and do a surreptitious search for any
[02:31:24.399] recording devices. Okay, so they hear
[02:31:26.880] the voices. Okay, she's making them up.
[02:31:29.280] She has a tape recorder or something,
[02:31:31.040] you know, something. Okay, so we did
[02:31:33.840] well, not me, but OSI did. You know, our
[02:31:38.000] experts went in and they can go in and
[02:31:41.120] put everything back. If this was like
[02:31:43.040] this, they'll put it back. you know,
[02:31:44.240] they'll take pictures of everything. And
[02:31:46.319] they went in and they didn't find it.
[02:31:47.760] They She had a uh a real toreal, one of
[02:31:50.960] these old Sony Realtore tape recorders.
[02:31:53.600] Yeah. Like that. And And that's it. She
[02:31:57.120] And she had a radio, you know, regular
[02:31:58.960] uh radio uh AMFM radio, but she didn't
[02:32:02.560] have anything else in there. But this,
[02:32:05.600] they took the tapes and listened. It was
[02:32:09.600] recording. It wasn't projecting
[02:32:11.280] anything. She didn't have anything to
[02:32:12.880] project the the audio, you know, you
[02:32:14.960] know the
[02:32:15.439] >> she was trying to record herself.
[02:32:17.040] >> Yeah. No, she wasn't doing anything.
[02:32:19.840] >> She wasn't using that at all.
[02:32:22.240] >> So, they you know, we sent that up to
[02:32:24.720] headquarters. They saying h you know,
[02:32:27.439] these voices are English. You know, they
[02:32:29.680] everybody's thinking alien English
[02:32:31.920] human. Uh why is she why are they
[02:32:33.920] talking English to her? You know, why
[02:32:35.200] are they doing it through her mind? and
[02:32:36.800] all these things, questions that people
[02:32:38.720] that I would be asking too.
[02:32:40.640] >> And because when I first heard that
[02:32:42.560] small portion of I thought
[02:32:45.760] >> she said an orgy. That's what it kind of
[02:32:47.840] sound like.
[02:32:48.319] >> What did they say?
[02:32:49.520] >> They were telling her things, telling
[02:32:50.960] her to do things like lift your arm,
[02:32:53.439] spread your legs,
[02:32:55.040] >> things like that. Oh my gosh. Lift your
[02:32:56.640] arm. Oh, they I forgot they they did
[02:32:59.280] things in her armpits, too. Uh I forgot
[02:33:01.920] that I they did that
[02:33:03.200] >> they were doing this in her room.
[02:33:04.720] >> In her room? Oh, no. They well yeah
[02:33:07.120] initially in a room. Now
[02:33:10.240] here's I can't go into a lot of details
[02:33:13.359] but
[02:33:15.520] this is before
[02:33:18.479] she was taken someplace. Okay. So she
[02:33:22.399] everything up to that point was done
[02:33:25.760] there either in her room on the base or
[02:33:28.880] dorm room in her bedroom on the base or
[02:33:30.720] the apartment upstairs in the bedroom.
[02:33:33.359] And
[02:33:35.120] after we did what we did, after we, you
[02:33:38.720] know, interviewed her, uh, because we we
[02:33:42.000] eventually said, "Listen, listen to this
[02:33:44.720] tape."
[02:33:45.439] >> Oh, we've recorded you.
[02:33:46.960] >> We recorded you. And I said, well, first
[02:33:48.880] of all, we said, "Listen, we're
[02:33:50.800] investigating this and we did something
[02:33:52.319] and we want to tell you about it." Well,
[02:33:54.399] she kind of figured out something. She's
[02:33:58.080] smart and and I said, "Listen to this."
[02:34:00.000] And she listened. She said, "Oh, yeah.
[02:34:02.960] That was them. I said,
[02:34:06.319] and and dumb me, dumb dumb dumb uh uh
[02:34:10.399] person like me. Well, not dumb, but why
[02:34:12.720] are they speaking in English? I asked
[02:34:14.240] her. She says, I don't know. Ask them.
[02:34:17.359] You know, I don't know why they were,
[02:34:19.280] you know, why are they speaking in
[02:34:21.439] English? She says, I said, they always
[02:34:23.439] speak in English. She said, yeah. I
[02:34:26.000] said, she said, I don't understand
[02:34:28.399] alien. Why would they? Well, I
[02:34:30.960] understand that, but I'm I'm I was
[02:34:32.399] saying why are they uh verbally saying
[02:34:35.920] that and not maybe in your mind like
[02:34:39.200] that we think? She said, "I don't know,
[02:34:41.359] but they've done that, too. I hear them
[02:34:43.760] in my head." That's what she she says.
[02:34:46.319] So, we thought, "Okay, whatever." Uh,
[02:34:48.800] now what do we do? Um, but then
[02:34:53.760] we missed opportunities
[02:34:57.840] and they took her. They would take her
[02:35:00.560] out through her window
[02:35:02.960] to a craft
[02:35:05.040] and then she would go someplace and then
[02:35:07.040] they would bring her back through her
[02:35:08.319] window
[02:35:08.720] >> like Linda Cortiel.
[02:35:11.120] >> Yeah.
[02:35:11.520] >> Type thing.
[02:35:12.640] >> And she would be in a room.
[02:35:15.439] She was in a b a bubble. She says a
[02:35:17.680] bubble. It was a bubble.
[02:35:20.000] >> A round room.
[02:35:21.040] >> A round room. And she was on a table in
[02:35:23.439] the bubble. And these she saw then these
[02:35:28.319] ugly she saw the actual insecttoids
[02:35:32.640] come in and they come right up to her
[02:35:36.319] and this is this is the times that she's
[02:35:38.560] hearing them in her head. They're not
[02:35:40.720] moving their but they're they're
[02:35:44.000] badgering her. They're saying who is
[02:35:47.359] God? Who is this God? I don't like to
[02:35:49.600] say that but um what's his name? Where
[02:35:52.880] does he live? and things like that that
[02:35:55.120] she's asking because she's praying.
[02:35:58.240] She's she's when she's abducted, she's
[02:36:01.040] praying. I think I said that, didn't I?
[02:36:03.439] Um well, she she is confused
[02:36:08.960] and then there's and then in this room
[02:36:11.200] in this bubble, they're doing all these
[02:36:13.520] things to her. Uh you know, examining
[02:36:16.160] her and more evasive all the time, more
[02:36:19.200] evasive. and then she would lose
[02:36:21.840] consciousness and find out find herself
[02:36:24.080] in a bed or in her bed in her apartment.
[02:36:27.600] Um,
[02:36:29.520] the only thing I can say is there are
[02:36:31.359] some people uh during this time that
[02:36:33.680] were thinking that these
[02:36:36.080] uh extraterrestrials
[02:36:38.960] uh couldn't uh couldn't be in the same
[02:36:42.640] environment with a human and that's why
[02:36:45.280] they come in this bubble. They had to
[02:36:47.120] keep her alive. they had to have oxygen
[02:36:49.439] and whatever, but when they went out,
[02:36:51.600] they they they were in their own
[02:36:53.520] environment. I don't know if I I know
[02:36:56.640] somebody one of the uh DIA guys are
[02:36:59.760] talked about that. Apparently, they have
[02:37:02.240] uh other cases that they worked on that
[02:37:04.080] I had no knowledge of.
[02:37:06.880] So, that's why uh the government went
[02:37:10.640] above and beyond to do something to help
[02:37:12.560] her and they did
[02:37:14.560] >> to this day.
[02:37:16.319] >> I don't know. I I I I'm sure
[02:37:19.680] >> she's I I spoke to her in Washington DC
[02:37:22.240] in 2022 and she's a different person. I
[02:37:25.760] mean, she's hasn't had any abductions
[02:37:29.200] in, you know, 30 30 years or whatever it
[02:37:32.160] was.
[02:37:32.800] >> That's uh it's terrifying. Yeah,
[02:37:35.520] >> it's a terrifying and and but to know
[02:37:38.080] like I mean it's just so strange the
[02:37:42.640] >> like
[02:37:45.280] what method was used to thwart them? How
[02:37:47.840] did they Was it guns? Was it sound? Was
[02:37:50.240] it like lights? What how did they get
[02:37:52.080] them out of there? How do they stop it
[02:37:54.160] from happening?
[02:37:54.800] >> I can't I can't go into detail.
[02:37:56.319] >> Yeah. Wouldn't that be really important
[02:37:57.760] information for people out there to know
[02:37:59.600] in case they wanted to stop it?
[02:38:00.960] >> It's not guns. It's nothing like that.
[02:38:03.760] It's uh technology.
[02:38:05.040] >> It's a frequency.
[02:38:06.479] >> It's just technology.
[02:38:09.200] >> Interesting.
[02:38:09.760] >> I I don't know. I'm not the scientist. I
[02:38:11.520] I I
[02:38:12.399] >> You don't know the method that
[02:38:14.399] >> um I know how they use it, but I don't
[02:38:16.640] know what's behind it.
[02:38:18.640] >> Okay.
[02:38:20.399] Interesting. Um
[02:38:22.800] Okay.
[02:38:24.479] All right. We'll we'll move from that,
[02:38:26.800] but we'll put a pin in that for whenever
[02:38:29.760] she decides to come forward. Maybe we'll
[02:38:31.760] have you back and talk about it. Well, I
[02:38:33.040] have her back, too.
[02:38:33.840] >> Maybe have both of you in the diner
[02:38:35.520] >> when she Yeah, that would be great. Once
[02:38:38.160] she talks, man, that I mean, she's going
[02:38:39.920] to be wanted by everybody.
[02:38:41.600] >> Of course.
[02:38:42.720] >> Of course.
[02:38:43.120] >> And I probably have an inside with her.
[02:38:44.960] I mean, all I did for her, all we did,
[02:38:47.600] and just me, but OSI did for her. Not
[02:38:50.160] not just OS was I, but the entire realm
[02:38:52.319] of the government. I mean, she had NSA
[02:38:54.560] and and everybody working uh to to tow
[02:38:58.479] this.
[02:38:59.439] >> It's really alarming.
[02:39:02.000] Um
[02:39:03.600] because you know what's hard Rick in
[02:39:06.240] this topic for me is and I'm sure you've
[02:39:10.399] come across this as well.
[02:39:12.960] You have to walk a line where one side
[02:39:16.720] of you says, "Okay,
[02:39:19.040] either this person is telling me the
[02:39:22.080] objective truth of extraterrestrial
[02:39:25.359] visitation of whether it's mutilation or
[02:39:28.640] whether it's just experimentation,
[02:39:30.319] whatever that is, or I am actively
[02:39:34.560] indulging in someone's potential
[02:39:36.240] psychosis."
[02:39:38.319] And that's the line that I always find
[02:39:41.200] very difficult because on one hand I
[02:39:44.080] want to be I want to be the person who
[02:39:46.160] people can trust to come to and say
[02:39:48.560] these things and who feel safe and
[02:39:50.880] secure in in in saying them. But on the
[02:39:54.479] other side, if this is all invented,
[02:39:58.479] then I'm actually not doing the right
[02:40:00.560] thing. Um, I'm I'm I'm gaslighting and
[02:40:05.359] I'm I'm making this worse somehow, uh,
[02:40:08.479] you know, by by allowing them to sort of
[02:40:12.479] perpetuate this potential,
[02:40:15.040] you know, psychotic episode. And so,
[02:40:19.040] you know, something like that,
[02:40:21.600] I'm sure, affected you in that same way
[02:40:24.800] where like, you know, there's a lot of
[02:40:26.080] times where I'm sure you couldn't tell
[02:40:27.359] if it was real or not. Even today, I'm
[02:40:30.160] sure with people telling you stories,
[02:40:31.680] how do you discern? Right. But then that
[02:40:34.240] gave you some objective truth. Did that
[02:40:37.200] change how you felt about previous
[02:40:39.600] abduction cases?
[02:40:40.800] >> Absolutely. Absolutely. And and she was
[02:40:44.080] one of the truly convincing
[02:40:48.800] cases. We had others
[02:40:51.840] that were not convincing,
[02:40:53.439] >> right? that that I mean you could
[02:40:58.640] one of the one of the things that was
[02:41:00.399] developed I have to be careful is the
[02:41:03.760] way uh to evaluate there's something a
[02:41:09.040] widget I'll call it a widget that you
[02:41:12.800] telling me you're abducted I'll bring
[02:41:14.560] that widget in and that that widget will
[02:41:17.040] tell me whether you're telling the truth
[02:41:18.319] not a lie detector anything like that
[02:41:20.080] it's something else that you just have
[02:41:22.479] to It It's too scientific for me to
[02:41:25.120] >> Of human origin.
[02:41:26.560] >> Yeah. Well, [laughter]
[02:41:30.080] I'm not going to say.
[02:41:31.439] >> Well, because I watched the movie A
[02:41:33.120] Disclosure Day. Have you seen this
[02:41:34.240] movie?
[02:41:34.560] >> Yes. Yes.
[02:41:35.359] >> So, in there there's a widget.
[02:41:37.280] >> Yep. [laughter]
[02:41:38.960] >> Um, is that not unlike the widget you're
[02:41:41.040] referring to?
[02:41:41.680] >> I'm not going to say.
[02:41:42.720] >> Okay. But because I found it very
[02:41:45.120] strange in that movie that that was
[02:41:48.000] brought in because I'm like, we don't
[02:41:49.840] really hear about things like that at
[02:41:51.200] all. everything else in the movie seem
[02:41:53.200] to track whether it's the the psychic
[02:41:56.240] overlay or the u the sort of lingering
[02:41:59.439] psychic abilities that someone has after
[02:42:01.520] having an experience these screen
[02:42:03.359] memories
[02:42:04.960] uh the childhood abductions there's
[02:42:07.120] there's so many things in that movie
[02:42:08.399] that really track and and cut deep for
[02:42:11.680] you know people who follow experiencers
[02:42:13.439] but that one thing stood out to me and I
[02:42:15.120] was like what the heck's this
[02:42:17.840] >> maybe he got uh some inside information
[02:42:20.560] >> do you think that's the
[02:42:22.080] I think he did. Yeah. I I I think Yeah.
[02:42:25.359] I'm
[02:42:25.760] >> 100%
[02:42:27.200] >> 100%. There's some things in there that
[02:42:28.960] he gotten
[02:42:29.600] >> He was briefed on.
[02:42:30.240] >> He was briefed on. He was right in.
[02:42:31.600] >> Absolutely. Absolutely.
[02:42:33.359] >> In that specific movie.
[02:42:34.720] >> Yeah. That that movie.
[02:42:36.640] >> Okay. What? Well,
[02:42:37.760] >> is the widget one of them?
[02:42:39.439] >> I'm not going to say, but [laughter]
[02:42:41.280] there are Yeah, I'll say the Muji is
[02:42:43.359] true. I I I they can't do anything to
[02:42:45.040] me. But
[02:42:47.120] there's a lot I heard from a very
[02:42:51.040] reliable source that 18 minutes was cut
[02:42:53.600] out of that film because the government
[02:42:55.280] says you can't you can't possibly show
[02:42:57.520] that. Now, I don't know if it's 18. I
[02:43:00.000] some says six minutes and some says 18.
[02:43:02.800] There's some sections cut out because if
[02:43:05.680] you w I watch it twice because there's
[02:43:08.880] reasons why I watch it twice
[02:43:12.000] and I analyze
[02:43:14.160] there's they jump you can almost tell
[02:43:16.640] where it's cut
[02:43:17.439] >> where they cut the thing.
[02:43:18.800] >> Excuse me. Yeah. Because I you know I've
[02:43:21.439] not I've never edited anything but I've
[02:43:23.359] been on movie sets and I know you know I
[02:43:26.399] know what was filmed and then what was
[02:43:28.000] cut later and what scene was you know.
[02:43:30.720] So yeah, I'm I'm positive.
[02:43:34.640] Now Spielberg will will say it's sensors
[02:43:37.600] or something, but sensors don't care
[02:43:40.479] about UFOs. I mean, if it's sex or
[02:43:43.600] something, you know, perverted, maybe
[02:43:45.680] they'll cut it, but sensors. Nah.
[02:43:47.760] >> Yeah. And what I found interesting, too,
[02:43:49.920] is that normally movies depicting some
[02:43:52.880] type of government faction or department
[02:43:56.080] will have to acknowledge them in the
[02:43:57.840] credits. They didn't.
[02:43:58.880] >> They didn't. I thought that was really
[02:44:00.880] interesting because even a movie like
[02:44:01.920] Elio which talks about you know there's
[02:44:03.920] space force in there and uh that you
[02:44:06.560] know
[02:44:07.520] >> we are very grateful for space force and
[02:44:09.840] the air force and the department of
[02:44:11.279] defense and and yada yada. So what's the
[02:44:13.840] reason why they wouldn't
[02:44:15.760] >> because it's so real that they don't I
[02:44:17.359] don't know I you know they want to touch
[02:44:18.800] it.
[02:44:19.520] >> It's you know it's
[02:44:21.439] >> what part what in what part of the movie
[02:44:22.880] do you think was cut out? Where do you
[02:44:24.160] think where do you feel that that was
[02:44:25.520] cut out? The ending was supposed to she
[02:44:29.040] was supposed I Well, this is what I was
[02:44:31.279] told.
[02:44:31.600] >> Yeah, sure.
[02:44:33.359] >> Um,
[02:44:34.080] >> what source told you this?
[02:44:35.680] >> Uh, somebody in uh the company
[02:44:40.960] uh
[02:44:41.840] >> at Universal. Somebody at
[02:44:43.279] >> No, Altrin Altrin. Uh
[02:44:46.399] >> oh, his company. Yeah, his company.
[02:44:47.920] Spielberg's company.
[02:44:48.720] >> Yeah. Somebody said
[02:44:50.960] >> there was more to the ending than was so
[02:44:53.840] that maybe that's what it was cut out. M
[02:44:56.720] uh she was supposed to say more and she
[02:44:59.520] was supposed to go into she was supposed
[02:45:02.000] to say it and then the alien voices
[02:45:06.560] they
[02:45:07.760] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[02:45:08.720] >> at the end and they didn't do that.
[02:45:11.040] >> Wow. Cuz I I think like many people felt
[02:45:16.000] the shortcoming of that ending. Like it
[02:45:18.319] was just so abrupt and strange that they
[02:45:20.880] would end it there. I was like what? I I
[02:45:22.720] stayed for the end credits. There's got
[02:45:24.240] to be more here. Me too. Yeah. But but
[02:45:28.160] yeah, this I think the ending uh and
[02:45:31.120] then there's um when when he first
[02:45:37.200] uh got into the uh alien head thing to
[02:45:40.080] try to talk.
[02:45:42.000] >> Uh they cut some of that out. Um I think
[02:45:46.640] at the beginning they also cut it out
[02:45:49.040] some things out.
[02:45:49.920] >> And you're saying they cut it not for
[02:45:51.200] time or anything, but for
[02:45:53.120] >> I'm saying it. Oh, I see. I don't know
[02:45:54.800] if I don't know. I'm just saying others
[02:45:57.359] have told me this.
[02:45:58.240] >> You you think
[02:45:59.040] >> I wasn't there but others have told I
[02:46:01.359] mean it's on the internet. I mean you
[02:46:02.560] look people they saying they cut it out
[02:46:04.479] for this they cut it out I don't know
[02:46:05.920] but but my friend who works there
[02:46:09.279] >> said yeah there's they they did cut out
[02:46:12.319] some and and they always cut out film
[02:46:14.240] you know but
[02:46:14.800] >> yeah I was scanning all the uh the sort
[02:46:17.680] of images that the news station was
[02:46:19.600] playing simultaneously. I was like,
[02:46:21.520] maybe there's something in here that
[02:46:22.800] they, you know, soft disclosure that
[02:46:24.319] they left in.
[02:46:25.359] >> Well, as I understand,
[02:46:28.399] there's uh a few people out there and
[02:46:31.680] and I'm actually going to go visit one
[02:46:34.319] next week uh who saw a longer version.
[02:46:39.279] >> Oh.
[02:46:41.200] >> And he surprisingly told me this. Uh he
[02:46:44.720] said, "Oh, they cut a lot out of that."
[02:46:47.279] I said, "Yeah, that's a rumor." He goes,
[02:46:49.279] "Oh, I'm not telling you rumor. I saw
[02:46:50.800] the longer version. I said, "You saw a
[02:46:53.439] longer version?" He said, "Yeah." I
[02:46:55.600] said, "I got to come out and see you."
[02:46:56.960] >> Where did he see it?
[02:46:59.359] >> At a special showing.
[02:47:01.120] >> He works for the government, too.
[02:47:02.800] >> Really? Was this showing in California?
[02:47:06.000] >> Yeah.
[02:47:06.560] >> Palm Springs area,
[02:47:09.680] >> you know.
[02:47:10.479] >> Was it?
[02:47:10.960] >> Yeah.
[02:47:11.439] >> Yeah. Interesting.
[02:47:12.319] >> You know,
[02:47:13.359] >> I know they had a screening there.
[02:47:14.880] >> Yep.
[02:47:15.200] >> And I know there was some uh there's
[02:47:17.359] some private jets landing.
[02:47:18.479] >> Mhm. two DARPA guys. Okay.
[02:47:21.359] >> At least two DARPA guys.
[02:47:22.960] >> An Air Force colonel.
[02:47:25.920] >> Because it happened um during contact in
[02:47:27.840] the desert.
[02:47:29.760] >> Oh,
[02:47:32.880] interesting.
[02:47:33.840] >> Yes.
[02:47:34.240] >> So that Okay. I'm going to have to talk
[02:47:36.399] to somebody.
[02:47:37.520] >> Yeah, I'm going to too next time.
[02:47:39.605] [laughter]
[02:47:40.560] >> That's interesting. Um okay,
[02:47:45.200] I want to talk about something a little
[02:47:47.359] more trippy. Um, since we've gotten into
[02:47:49.920] some really trippy things. Um, now, you
[02:47:52.640] know, there is
[02:47:53.680] >> there's so much I'd love to talk to you
[02:47:55.279] about, including, you know, Serpo,
[02:47:57.279] including more about Project Aquarius,
[02:48:00.160] and I mean, a Dolce base, like all this
[02:48:02.560] all this stuff is is uh very
[02:48:04.880] fascinating. But one thing that I came
[02:48:06.479] across that I thought was really
[02:48:07.840] interesting
[02:48:09.120] >> is I had um I think a mutual friend on
[02:48:12.560] here, uh, John Stewart.
[02:48:15.279] >> I know John. Yeah,
[02:48:16.880] >> good friends, John.
[02:48:18.240] >> Yeah, John's a good guy. I like John.
[02:48:20.399] Yeah.
[02:48:20.800] >> Um, you know, the internet gives him a
[02:48:23.120] hard time. Not entirely undeserved.
[02:48:27.200] I think I think uh, you know, and John's
[02:48:29.359] definitely going to watch this. Uh, but
[02:48:31.359] I, uh, I do think John sort of pokes the
[02:48:34.880] bear, so to speak. He's got a lot of
[02:48:36.960] gumption. He's somebody who, you know,
[02:48:39.359] his background is just riddled with
[02:48:42.880] someone who kicks indoors and doesn't
[02:48:44.560] really, you know, he's boisterous. He's
[02:48:46.319] he's all of these things.
[02:48:47.840] >> Um, which I think, credit to him, uh,
[02:48:51.600] gets him into places and into
[02:48:53.840] conversations that most don't get
[02:48:58.560] uh into. Um, and so one of these stories
[02:49:02.080] is the story of this Carthusian monk
[02:49:06.240] in I think northern Vermont or
[02:49:08.399] something.
[02:49:09.200] >> Yeah, Vermont. Yeah.
[02:49:11.279] >> And the story is if if the people at
[02:49:14.560] home haven't watched this, the story is
[02:49:16.720] as follows. uh that he had someone
[02:49:22.479] reach out to this monastery because this
[02:49:25.279] monastery was found by remote viewers
[02:49:28.479] during, you know, the whole Stargate era
[02:49:30.560] or maybe a little prior or after. Um but
[02:49:34.000] they remote viewed the monastery as
[02:49:37.680] being as housing people who will help
[02:49:40.160] them communicate with the being that
[02:49:43.439] they had at S4 or at Area 51 Groom Lake
[02:49:47.520] or Papoose.
[02:49:49.279] And so they ended up going there and a
[02:49:53.279] Carthusian monastery by the way is like
[02:49:55.279] one of the most sacred. There's only one
[02:49:57.600] in the United States and uh these people
[02:50:00.160] take a vow of silence. Their whole
[02:50:02.319] existence is to do nothing but
[02:50:04.240] contemplate like God.
[02:50:07.439] They have the right to refuse being
[02:50:09.120] called upon uh by the church. Like
[02:50:11.359] that's how coveted these people are. And
[02:50:14.640] because of this, you know, they they
[02:50:16.560] have a lot of wisdom and a lot of, you
[02:50:18.800] know, sort of this this higher
[02:50:20.880] connection potentially. and and they
[02:50:22.640] were eventually brought in and flown to
[02:50:26.560] this secret undisclosed location to
[02:50:28.640] communicate with this being.
[02:50:32.399] It is my understanding through
[02:50:33.920] conversations with John that you may
[02:50:36.640] have also had some small part in this or
[02:50:41.439] an interest a vested interest in this
[02:50:44.000] story. And is that safe to say?
[02:50:46.960] >> Yes. Yeah. I I I knew of an operation
[02:50:51.840] that was occurring at Groom Lake. I
[02:50:55.040] didn't know uh it was Cthusian monks.
[02:50:58.080] Okay. I knew there was a pro there was a
[02:51:00.640] a project
[02:51:02.479] um that they were bringing people in to
[02:51:07.279] uh S2 Annex,
[02:51:09.600] which is where the uh we call it the
[02:51:12.479] creature containment facility. They had
[02:51:15.120] special facilities for these
[02:51:16.720] extraterrestrials that we found or gain.
[02:51:19.840] I I don't know how we got them. Uh
[02:51:23.120] because a lot of them had to have
[02:51:24.399] special environments to live
[02:51:26.880] and that these people that they brought
[02:51:29.680] in and again I didn't know at the time
[02:51:31.760] in ' 80s that they were Gusian monks
[02:51:34.479] that they were able to communicate with
[02:51:36.000] them. Now that's it. That's that's 1980s
[02:51:40.479] era. Okay.
[02:51:41.040] >> Was that a project you were read into? I
[02:51:43.359] was partially right into it. Yes.
[02:51:44.960] Because
[02:51:46.543] [clears throat] one of the um
[02:51:48.800] one of the vans uh that they they
[02:51:51.840] weren't flown in to uh Goomb Lake. They
[02:51:55.920] were uh bust or they had a van. Uh the
[02:51:59.439] government used a van
[02:52:00.640] >> from Nellis. the they they flew into uh
[02:52:04.880] uh Las Vegas
[02:52:08.000] uh now [clears throat] Henry Harry Reid
[02:52:10.640] airport and then they would bust him up
[02:52:12.960] to uh Nellis and they would spend a
[02:52:16.080] night at Nellis and something was going
[02:52:18.399] I don't know what happened at Nellis and
[02:52:20.399] then they would truck them bus them out
[02:52:22.880] or truck them out there. Well, one of
[02:52:24.479] them got in an accident and at at up
[02:52:28.240] there uh I think just south near Rachel
[02:52:34.160] anyways. And um we knew that they were
[02:52:39.120] uh very uh important officials. We
[02:52:42.640] didn't know who they were. And so, you
[02:52:45.200] know, they an accident happened, the
[02:52:46.560] highway patrols there investigating it.
[02:52:48.880] We had to go up and interface with the
[02:52:50.560] highway patrol. So, I knew these I knew
[02:52:53.200] that they were some special and we
[02:52:56.000] actually uh got another uh van from
[02:53:00.319] Groom Lake to come out to pick them up.
[02:53:02.160] So, and then take him out there. So,
[02:53:04.080] that's my involvement with this. I knew
[02:53:08.080] and then uh one of the agents uh
[02:53:11.200] Harrison was his name who was actually
[02:53:13.680] involved this counter intelligence
[02:53:15.359] operation for S2 Annex. Uh he he knew
[02:53:20.000] what was going on.
[02:53:21.760] and he had to give me limited access
[02:53:24.960] because of what I did. And I because I
[02:53:28.240] came back and I said, "Okay, how do you
[02:53:30.880] want me to there's certain codes we have
[02:53:32.399] to use in reports. How many how do you
[02:53:34.399] want me to code this?" And he goes,
[02:53:36.240] "Well, they're they're going up to uh S2
[02:53:40.319] Annex and they're going to be uh
[02:53:43.200] interpreters." I said, "Okay." Well, not
[02:53:46.560] interpreters.
[02:53:47.760] >> Sure. in a in a sense of what we could
[02:53:50.720] write down would be interpreters. That's
[02:53:52.319] it. Now jump ahead
[02:53:56.399] many many 30 some 40 years
[02:54:00.399] the story came out uh that uh from
[02:54:04.160] another person um within uh uh
[02:54:09.920] John's realm of of of of circle so to
[02:54:13.439] speak uh that told him the story that
[02:54:17.279] there were two Carthusian monks
[02:54:20.640] that had special gifts to be able to
[02:54:22.880] communicate with these
[02:54:23.840] extraterrestrials.
[02:54:26.000] And apparently, I mean, again, there's a
[02:54:29.920] lot of whole I mean, a lot of things we
[02:54:31.840] can't put together here,
[02:54:34.319] but these two were still alive. Uh they
[02:54:37.600] were living at at this uh monastery and
[02:54:40.319] like you said, it's a very closed
[02:54:42.399] monastery. It's like they were hermits.
[02:54:44.640] They they
[02:54:45.439] >> It looks like a bunker.
[02:54:46.720] >> Exactly. They they they you can't visit
[02:54:49.279] the place. Uh we we went up tried to
[02:54:51.920] visit the place. Um they there it's
[02:54:54.960] called
[02:54:55.120] >> Who's we? You and John?
[02:54:56.240] >> No, me and another guy went went up
[02:54:58.160] there. Uh and at the bottom of the hill
[02:55:01.840] they have a gift shop and they make uh
[02:55:04.960] they have gift shop. They make honey.
[02:55:07.120] They have they make other things amongst
[02:55:09.520] to to you know to to to substain
[02:55:13.520] and but you we tried to get access to we
[02:55:18.560] knew their names uh the brother John and
[02:55:21.680] brother but we didn't know anything more
[02:55:23.760] about him and they said no you can't
[02:55:25.439] they don't have visitors once a year
[02:55:29.920] they can have a family member visit them
[02:55:34.160] but these two don't have any family and
[02:55:37.760] they're very old and they're in, you
[02:55:40.399] know, like a hospice up there or
[02:55:42.319] something. So, we could never get up
[02:55:43.920] there. But what we noticed was that
[02:55:47.600] there was a Vermont state trooper
[02:55:51.040] that would patrol from the gate where
[02:55:53.520] the uh gift house, gift shop was up the
[02:55:57.279] road and down. I thought that's odd.
[02:55:59.439] State troopers are patrolling a private.
[02:56:02.080] Why is that? Well, we we went to this
[02:56:04.560] local state police barracks and they
[02:56:07.279] basically said, "Get out of here." You
[02:56:09.439] know, none of your business what we do.
[02:56:11.120] And so we did, you know, could uh and we
[02:56:14.399] did um records, freedom of records
[02:56:17.760] checks, it called from Vermont. And all
[02:56:20.160] we got back was that uh somebody pays
[02:56:24.560] overtime. It doesn't say who. Some
[02:56:27.920] somebody pays the troopers overtime cuz
[02:56:32.479] what they're doing is overtime pay.
[02:56:34.240] >> Yeah, sure.
[02:56:35.120] >> And that's it. That's all we got. We
[02:56:37.200] didn't have anything else. No names. No,
[02:56:39.760] I think we got the troopers names. Uh I
[02:56:42.720] think I I'm not sure, but that's it. We
[02:56:44.880] couldn't get every up there. But this
[02:56:47.840] other person
[02:56:50.000] uh who worked at Area 51, his name is
[02:56:54.000] Jean,
[02:56:56.319] who actually was a director of security
[02:56:58.640] at Area 51 back in the 80s, told the
[02:57:02.319] story of of these two monks that they
[02:57:05.600] were in fact gifted.
[02:57:08.399] Now
[02:57:10.000] where they got gifted from,
[02:57:12.960] you know, we some people surmise that
[02:57:15.359] they might have gone to the Vatican and
[02:57:17.680] the Vatican had special powers or they
[02:57:21.120] knew or whatever. I don't know.
[02:57:23.120] >> Or maybe just through the vow of silence
[02:57:24.800] itself. You know how if you dampen one
[02:57:27.520] sense, the other senses might start to
[02:57:30.399] increase.
[02:57:31.040] >> That's a possibility. Anyways, they were
[02:57:33.120] the ones that were able to communicate
[02:57:35.120] with this particular species of
[02:57:36.880] extraterrestrial.
[02:57:38.080] >> Which species?
[02:57:39.439] >> Uh, I'm not sure. I think the grays that
[02:57:42.000] one of the grays.
[02:57:43.279] >> And these grays told us all this
[02:57:45.760] information. And that's part of the film
[02:57:48.880] that John is talking about
[02:57:50.960] >> the alien interview.
[02:57:51.840] >> The alien interview.
[02:57:52.800] >> You You feel like that film is real?
[02:57:54.240] >> Oh, yeah. I know it is because the guy
[02:57:56.319] that smuggled it out uh spoke Victor
[02:57:59.920] >> at at a No,
[02:58:01.520] >> no. the guy who gave it to Victor.
[02:58:03.279] >> Yeah. Gave it to Victor, the Air Force
[02:58:05.200] sergeant that smuggled it out. He worked
[02:58:07.040] in the audio visual uh lab at at Groom
[02:58:10.720] Lake. Um he had access to where he could
[02:58:14.479] copy that, right? He had
[02:58:16.560] >> Yeah, you would have to Yeah.
[02:58:18.640] >> the the video or whatever how they did
[02:58:20.800] that. I think it was on a
[02:58:22.240] >> And it was during a time they were sort
[02:58:23.760] of digitizing everything.
[02:58:25.040] >> Digitizing it, right? Exactly. And so he
[02:58:27.200] was able to smuggle it out, keep it, and
[02:58:29.439] eventually gave it to Victor. And then
[02:58:31.600] the story of Victor.
[02:58:32.880] >> You don't think that that could be
[02:58:34.000] passage material?
[02:58:36.000] >> No. He spoke to us uh a couple different
[02:58:40.160] times
[02:58:41.760] uh the technician and he uh and he
[02:58:44.960] doesn't want his name because he still
[02:58:46.720] feels well he could still be prosecuted.
[02:58:50.240] >> Unauorized disclosure class of
[02:58:51.840] information. There's no statute of
[02:58:54.080] limitations on that. Yeah, but I mean
[02:58:55.600] you'd have to admit to something else.
[02:58:57.120] >> I know. I [laughter] know. But uh you
[02:58:59.760] know, he emphatically told us that
[02:59:01.760] that's what he did and that's why John
[02:59:03.600] knows what the chain of events was.
[02:59:05.279] >> Sure.
[02:59:05.760] >> Was and and so
[02:59:08.240] >> you're convinced without a doubt that
[02:59:09.680] that is a real alien that we're looking
[02:59:11.600] at.
[02:59:11.920] >> I am. Yes.
[02:59:12.960] >> Any other video online that you would
[02:59:15.279] say that is without a doubt real?
[02:59:17.520] Whether UFO or alien?
[02:59:19.600] >> There's a couple.
[02:59:20.399] >> Which ones? I'd have to show them. I I
[02:59:22.479] don't have them right here.
[02:59:23.359] >> Okay. We can talk about it. We could I
[02:59:25.520] have some that I'll give to you.
[02:59:27.600] >> Okay.
[02:59:28.080] >> You think it pretty sure is real.
[02:59:30.080] >> Okay. Not the Skinny Bob. Nothing like
[02:59:33.040] that.
[02:59:35.040] >> I'd have to see it. Okay. Because
[02:59:37.200] there's two different ones named Skinny
[02:59:38.800] Bob. But yeah.
[02:59:40.800] >> Okay.
[02:59:41.600] >> I'd have to the the one the most famous
[02:59:45.200] foot fake one was the one where that you
[02:59:48.240] see the military officers holding this
[02:59:51.040] doll. It was a doll. It was a joke
[02:59:54.080] actually. Uh, somebody took a picture
[02:59:56.479] and now
[02:59:57.520] >> they're claiming it was an extra trust.
[02:59:59.439] >> Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. It was a doll. Yeah.
[03:00:01.200] Yeah. Yeah.
[03:00:01.680] >> Has a doll. Anyways, um, yeah, we can
[03:00:05.600] >> What about there's this video where it
[03:00:08.240] seems like it's an a crash site or
[03:00:10.080] something. Um, maybe in the 40s. It's
[03:00:13.680] sort of sepia
[03:00:15.520] brownish hues. And there looks to be on
[03:00:19.920] a stretcher like a tiny body and like
[03:00:22.000] military officials. It's very brief. Do
[03:00:24.080] you know this one?
[03:00:25.120] >> No, I don't.
[03:00:25.840] >> Okay, maybe I'll show that to you
[03:00:26.880] afterwards.
[03:00:27.520] >> Yeah.
[03:00:28.479] >> Um, cool. Okay. Well, yeah, I don't know
[03:00:32.000] where I sit with that. That's a weird
[03:00:33.520] one because on one hand
[03:00:36.800] I,
[03:00:38.640] you know, you look at that video and
[03:00:40.720] parts of it are,
[03:00:42.640] >> you know, alarming because it, you know,
[03:00:44.399] looks like a being that's in distress
[03:00:45.760] and being sort of tampered. But the
[03:00:48.319] other part of me is like this kind of
[03:00:49.920] looks like a puppet. This kind But
[03:00:51.840] again, I don't know what an alien looks
[03:00:54.000] like or how it moves, right? So maybe
[03:00:56.240] that's the only way I can describe it.
[03:00:57.760] But when I see it, I see it, you know,
[03:01:00.160] kind of doing doing this here.
[03:01:02.479] >> Yeah. It feels like it's puppetry. Um,
[03:01:05.439] which leads me to believe that at the
[03:01:07.359] maybe at the very least like this was
[03:01:10.399] made
[03:01:12.000] to replicate a real video, you know, and
[03:01:14.560] I think John I think that's where he
[03:01:16.319] sits as well.
[03:01:17.439] >> Yeah. Uh,
[03:01:20.560] >> you don't think that that was the case?
[03:01:22.000] >> I I don't think so.
[03:01:22.960] >> Like this guy smuggled out a real video
[03:01:27.120] of
[03:01:28.960] something that was recreated.
[03:01:31.840] He just unknowingly smuggled out the
[03:01:34.319] recreation. Do you don't think that that
[03:01:35.920] is a possibility?
[03:01:37.760] >> I guess it's a possibility. Uh but I go
[03:01:40.479] back to I know the facility. I've been
[03:01:43.120] at the facility.
[03:01:44.560] >> I saw closed circuit
[03:01:48.000] uh watching a closed circuit television
[03:01:50.960] camera of an alien inside. I went in
[03:01:54.880] there to interview somebody. I wasn't
[03:01:56.880] supposed to see this. I was in there
[03:01:59.040] watching this and I asked the guy that I
[03:02:01.520] was supposed to be interviewed. I said,
[03:02:02.880] 'What's that? He said, "Oh, they're
[03:02:04.479] talking to one of the visitors. They
[03:02:06.720] call them visitors." And I I watched,
[03:02:09.120] you know, I watched maybe, you know, 20
[03:02:12.319] seconds, 25 seconds of it. And then this
[03:02:15.359] colonel comes in. He said, "Uh, can I
[03:02:16.800] help you?" And I said, "Yeah, I'm here
[03:02:18.000] to interview so- and so." And he said,
[03:02:19.439] "You're not cleared for here, sir. You
[03:02:21.600] need to get out of here." I wasn't
[03:02:23.359] cleared for their but I didn't know that
[03:02:25.279] they were doing this. So, I know that
[03:02:27.920] they do that.
[03:02:28.960] >> Yeah. They weren't trying to pull one
[03:02:30.240] over on you. They didn't know you were
[03:02:31.520] there.
[03:02:31.840] >> No. So, I had to get out. And then when
[03:02:34.080] I got out, he said, "Where do you work?"
[03:02:36.160] I said, "I'm OSI." And I showed him my
[03:02:37.600] OSI. He said, "Oh, okay. Never mind." I
[03:02:39.760] guess he assumed I was cleared, but I
[03:02:41.760] wasn't. So, what I had to do when you
[03:02:45.359] when you uh get access to something
[03:02:47.600] you're not cleared for, you have to
[03:02:49.040] report it and you know, all these
[03:02:51.359] seizures. I went back to the office and
[03:02:53.920] I told my boss, I said, you know, I told
[03:02:55.840] him what happened. And he said, "What
[03:02:57.920] did you see?" And I told him, he said,
[03:03:00.000] "Uh, fill out a form 18 and it's like a
[03:03:04.319] a form that uh that I had acknowledged
[03:03:07.600] that I had access to something. I was
[03:03:09.200] unauthorized."
[03:03:10.240] >> Yeah. And he said, "I'll sign off on
[03:03:12.240] it." And they'll do it again. You know,
[03:03:14.640] he had to counsel me or something.
[03:03:16.960] >> There's a couple forms you had to fill
[03:03:18.399] out. So, I know that that that happens.
[03:03:21.920] I saw it
[03:03:22.800] >> and it was the same
[03:03:24.880] >> similar. Okay.
[03:03:26.080] >> With a similar I mean I can't say
[03:03:27.600] >> big head big head large but it was it
[03:03:30.800] was in a like a
[03:03:33.359] one of these um swings that you'd put uh
[03:03:37.120] somebody that was disabled in you know
[03:03:39.439] these uh
[03:03:41.040] >> swings. It it was in a swing like a
[03:03:43.439] harness
[03:03:44.240] >> and it had straps around him. His head
[03:03:46.479] looked exactly like that one. And uh I
[03:03:51.120] didn't see the people. I didn't see the
[03:03:52.880] whoever was in the room, but it was it
[03:03:56.399] was moving like it was talking. But, you
[03:03:59.040] know, I said I only had short period of
[03:04:01.680] time to watch. I would want to watch all
[03:04:03.520] of it, but because it really perked my
[03:04:05.359] interest, I thought, "Holy they
[03:04:07.439] got him in here." Yeah. I thought I knew
[03:04:09.359] I what the facility was,
[03:04:11.359] >> but I never, you know, I wasn't there
[03:04:13.920] was an OSI agent that was responsible
[03:04:16.160] for that area. It wasn't me, but I knew
[03:04:19.359] it was there. Now I know what they had
[03:04:21.760] there. At least one.
[03:04:23.279] >> You've had so many interesting
[03:04:26.399] encounters. Um
[03:04:29.520] >> I wish I had more. [laughter]
[03:04:31.359] >> There's never enough.
[03:04:32.479] >> Never enough.
[03:04:34.080] >> But you you talk about it so flippantly
[03:04:36.080] like how how do you get to that point? I
[03:04:38.960] feel like a lot of people,
[03:04:41.680] you know, I don't know. I don't know how
[03:04:43.200] I would process all that information, I
[03:04:45.040] guess. And I'm just kind of it's not
[03:04:48.080] every day that you get to, you know,
[03:04:51.840] see something like that and then even
[03:04:53.920] know how to process it. Like I don't
[03:04:55.359] even know how I would process it. Well,
[03:04:58.399] first of all, you didn't go through all
[03:05:00.800] the prerequisites to get becoming an
[03:05:03.120] intelligence officer. You didn't go
[03:05:05.200] through all the psychological testing.
[03:05:07.200] You didn't go through the intelligence
[03:05:08.640] operations course that prepares you for
[03:05:11.120] the unknown. So, that helped. But I'm a
[03:05:14.319] human being and yeah, there's a lot of
[03:05:17.680] things that I saw that I can't explain.
[03:05:20.640] The briefing that I had in 1979 that I
[03:05:23.760] didn't believe, but then I realized yet
[03:05:25.840] was real. Uh some other things that I
[03:05:28.960] had access to, uh to this day, uh I'm
[03:05:33.040] not sure what I saw. I mean, I saw it,
[03:05:36.000] you know, with my own eyes and there
[03:05:37.680] were other people with me when they saw
[03:05:39.120] it, but I can't explain it. And so,
[03:05:43.279] yeah, there's a lot of things that I
[03:05:44.720] can't explain that I saw. And there's
[03:05:46.800] things that I did that I was told to do
[03:05:50.479] and I did it because I that's my job.
[03:05:53.200] I'm following orders that I wish I
[03:05:56.160] didn't do or I wish I didn't see. And a
[03:05:59.040] lot of that as were abductions
[03:06:01.760] because after the sergeant's abduction
[03:06:05.439] and all her case uh it was very
[03:06:08.240] difficult to believe anybody unless they
[03:06:10.160] had you know really really really good
[03:06:12.319] proofs. And there was a case another
[03:06:14.080] case I was involved in. I I wasn't I
[03:06:16.000] wasn't a case agent for it. I just had
[03:06:18.160] very very very limited access to it.
[03:06:20.960] Another female she was a dependent wife
[03:06:23.439] of a captain. She she wasn't in the air
[03:06:25.840] force. She was a dependent wife. You
[03:06:27.520] know what that mean? You know what that
[03:06:28.479] means. And uh yeah, your mother.
[03:06:30.804] [laughter]
[03:06:31.680] And um so she had an experience
[03:06:36.720] that I took the initial report on
[03:06:40.160] that
[03:06:41.680] made us believe that she
[03:06:45.359] was having an affair and was covering
[03:06:48.080] the affair with this supposed
[03:06:51.279] >> But it didn't turn out that way. I mean,
[03:06:54.160] like I said, I only had a little part of
[03:06:55.680] it. Very rare little part of it.
[03:06:57.840] >> Did you bring in the widget?
[03:06:59.920] >> Brought in the W. They they brought in
[03:07:01.359] the widget
[03:07:02.240] >> and that confirmed it.
[03:07:03.680] >> That confirmed that she was telling the
[03:07:04.960] truth. The facts to the case. And if if
[03:07:09.439] we have time, I
[03:07:10.399] >> we have plenty of time.
[03:07:11.439] >> Okay. Uh she's driving uh she leaves
[03:07:14.720] Kirtland. She's driving on the
[03:07:15.920] Interstate 25 to Colorado. Her uh I
[03:07:19.359] don't know, some relatives live in
[03:07:20.560] Colorado. She has her I don't know a
[03:07:23.680] small child I think seven month or
[03:07:25.520] eightmonth old child in the back seat in
[03:07:26.880] a car seat. She's driving. She gets near
[03:07:29.200] Springer, New Mexico, which is uh you
[03:07:32.000] know about 40 miles from the Colorado
[03:07:34.800] state line.
[03:07:35.439] >> Okay.
[03:07:35.920] >> And uh the car she has problems with the
[03:07:38.800] car. She pulls off the side of the road.
[03:07:41.200] It's just before the first exit going
[03:07:43.040] into Springer, New Mexico, little little
[03:07:44.960] town. And all of a sudden the car lights
[03:07:48.160] up.
[03:07:49.920] She feels dizzy and she loses time. She
[03:07:54.560] wakes up at Eagle Nest Lake, which is 70
[03:07:59.600] miles away to the west. She doesn't have
[03:08:02.560] her child with her.
[03:08:05.040] She doesn't know where she is. She
[03:08:06.479] doesn't know what happened 6 hours
[03:08:08.000] later. Well, fortunately, a New Mexico
[03:08:12.319] State trooper saw the vehicle at the
[03:08:14.160] side of the road, pulls up, looks in,
[03:08:16.160] sees a baby, doesn't see anybody around,
[03:08:18.640] you know, and calls and takes care, you
[03:08:20.720] know, takes care of the child. Uh, but
[03:08:23.439] then he he does his investigation and
[03:08:25.520] finds that this woman, you know, runs
[03:08:28.240] the plate and finds out this woman is is
[03:08:31.279] supposed to be in a car. He calls back
[03:08:33.760] to the base and the gets a hold of the
[03:08:37.359] husband who had been working or
[03:08:38.720] something something a captain and said
[03:08:40.960] no my wife left uh to go to uh I think
[03:08:44.160] Publo Colorado to visit relatives and
[03:08:47.200] they said well we found your baby in a
[03:08:48.800] car but we can't find her where would
[03:08:50.560] she be
[03:08:54.240] a fisherman jump up the eagle nest lake
[03:08:57.200] it's big lake in northern New Mexico he
[03:09:00.000] finds her walking along the shoreline of
[03:09:02.000] this like and he asked him, "Ma'am,
[03:09:03.359] what's wrong?" And she's all excited,
[03:09:05.200] crying. I don't know where my baby is.
[03:09:07.600] Uh he he where where'd you come from? My
[03:09:11.359] car. My car. So him and another
[03:09:13.680] fisherman are looking all over for a
[03:09:15.120] car. Thought that there's only one way
[03:09:16.880] down at a road. They can't find a car.
[03:09:19.680] So they call uh We didn't have 911 back
[03:09:24.160] in those days.
[03:09:25.200] >> Was 411, was it?
[03:09:26.399] >> Yeah. No, it was zero operator. Uh he
[03:09:30.399] well he had to go to a place to call. He
[03:09:33.520] left somebody in char of her and drives
[03:09:36.479] to this gas station uh you know 7 milesi
[03:09:39.040] away you know calls and so uh the law
[03:09:45.279] enforcement in there is state police.
[03:09:47.040] They come down there. Well they know her
[03:09:49.920] name because the other trooper over in
[03:09:51.600] Springer found the vehicle. And so they
[03:09:54.880] take her and they they immediately take
[03:09:57.279] her to a hospital. And the the closest
[03:10:00.000] hospital was in Raton, New Mexico, right
[03:10:02.399] up near the state line. That's closest
[03:10:04.399] hospital cuz she was uh
[03:10:07.439] >> delirious
[03:10:08.240] >> delirious and and suffering from uh pain
[03:10:11.840] all over her body. So they take her up
[03:10:13.600] there and fortunately the baby was taken
[03:10:16.720] there too to the to the uh uh needle
[03:10:20.640] natal care or the or the pediatrics care
[03:10:22.640] unit there. So they inter they examined
[03:10:26.160] her and said, "Well, man, you you've
[03:10:27.760] been you've been raped." And she said,
[03:10:31.359] "Oh, uh, no, I I was in my car." She
[03:10:34.880] tells a story. Well, jump. The next
[03:10:38.240] afternoon, the captain comes to our
[03:10:40.800] office with her and tells us a story
[03:10:45.120] and and I take the rep, you know, I'm
[03:10:46.880] there and listen to the captain and
[03:10:48.479] she's she's out in a waiting room. She's
[03:10:50.880] not in back my because my area was all
[03:10:53.439] secure. I listened to him. I said, "This
[03:10:55.680] is what she told you?" Yeah. I said,
[03:10:57.680] "And she was raped by somebody." Yeah. I
[03:11:00.800] said, "Well, well, why why do you think
[03:11:03.120] it's UFO related?" He says, "She was
[03:11:06.240] taken out of a vehicle into the into the
[03:11:08.479] flying saucer."
[03:11:11.359] Okay. I don't don't believe it. I said,
[03:11:14.880] "Okay." So, I said, "Well, we'll
[03:11:16.479] interview her, but I have to have a
[03:11:17.760] female agent." So we we had them but
[03:11:20.880] they one was out. So we had to wait a
[03:11:22.479] while and we get her back there. We get
[03:11:23.760] the female agent and she tells us the
[03:11:25.439] story just as I told you that she's
[03:11:28.000] driving and she pulls off and uh some
[03:11:31.040] the car lights up and she doesn't know
[03:11:33.120] where she went and she wakes up on the
[03:11:34.720] shoreline of this lake and she panics
[03:11:37.600] because her baby's not there. And I
[03:11:40.800] said, "Well, what happened?" I don't
[03:11:42.960] know. I said, "Did who who raped you?"
[03:11:45.359] "I don't know." I said, ' But you knew
[03:11:48.479] you were raped?' No, I don't know.
[03:11:50.640] That's what the doctor told me. I said,
[03:11:52.880] ' Okay. So,
[03:11:56.080] okay, you raped. That's off base as
[03:11:58.560] civilians kind of let the state police
[03:12:01.120] handle that. You know, we're going to
[03:12:02.399] we're So, we coordinate with state
[03:12:04.240] police and they say, "Oh, we got
[03:12:05.439] investigators doing that. We
[03:12:08.000] So,
[03:12:08.960] >> they think the two fishermen might be
[03:12:11.040] involved in this, right? They you know
[03:12:12.800] they back then they didn't have DNA but
[03:12:14.720] they have
[03:12:15.200] >> brought them in for questioning.
[03:12:16.240] >> They have uh secretions. If you are a
[03:12:18.560] secretor of something you can tell SP
[03:12:21.279] she didn't have any semen in her.
[03:12:23.120] >> Yeah.
[03:12:24.240] >> So they they they cleared them I guess
[03:12:26.240] and uh so then we started delving into
[03:12:30.479] it. Well I didn't. Another agent comes
[03:12:32.319] in and takes it takes the case. So
[03:12:34.800] that's all I was involved in that.
[03:12:37.359] Months later,
[03:12:39.279] I was told by this other agent, female
[03:12:41.680] agent, that it was legitimate. She just
[03:12:44.479] came at my office and she says, "You
[03:12:46.880] remember the certain case?" "Yeah,
[03:12:48.960] legitimate." and walked out.
[03:12:50.960] >> Wow.
[03:12:51.600] >> So, that was my limited briefing access.
[03:12:54.240] >> Wow.
[03:12:54.560] >> So, it it it really happened.
[03:12:57.279] >> What's your best guess as to why and and
[03:13:00.800] it's mostly women why the abductions
[03:13:04.399] take place? They're interested in our
[03:13:07.520] body structures. Their their bodies,
[03:13:09.760] their biologics are entire entirely
[03:13:12.080] different than ours. Uh their makeup of
[03:13:14.560] their sk of of our skin, their skin,
[03:13:16.720] everything's different. Eyes are
[03:13:18.319] different. Uh they're interested in us.
[03:13:22.160] And they're interested in how we uh uh
[03:13:26.160] populate, how uh you know, how we uh can
[03:13:30.560] move uh how our eyes move, what we see
[03:13:34.239] when we we all these things they're
[03:13:36.399] interested in. And this is me. This is
[03:13:38.000] Rick Dodie talking. This isn't something
[03:13:39.760] I read out of some document.
[03:13:41.120] >> Sure.
[03:13:42.080] >> Uh I think that they're so interested in
[03:13:44.399] us that they want to experiment with us,
[03:13:48.000] but they don't want to harm us. And
[03:13:50.640] that's why all these abductions
[03:13:52.319] occurring and from different species and
[03:13:55.680] they're just trying to examine us as we
[03:13:58.560] would them. We have and now I'm talking
[03:14:02.239] from experience. We have
[03:14:04.000] extraterrestrials in captivity. I know
[03:14:06.960] that I saw one at least one. I know that
[03:14:10.479] there were others. There were 20 I think
[03:14:14.080] 24 uh uh six
[03:14:17.439] uh no 30. There were 30 uh environmental
[03:14:20.960] cages or facilities that could house
[03:14:24.560] them. Different types of environment.
[03:14:26.640] Some where the extraterrestrials were
[03:14:29.120] breathing a little bit of methane. And
[03:14:31.200] so all this is happening. I know it. And
[03:14:35.359] so we're experimenting trying to figure
[03:14:37.200] out what these things are. We have dead
[03:14:39.359] bodies of them in crash sites. We're
[03:14:42.640] doing autopsies on them. I know that
[03:14:44.720] from people like Kit Green and others uh
[03:14:47.040] that work for the Institute for uh Armed
[03:14:49.439] Force Institute for Pathology.
[03:14:51.040] >> Kate Green did autopsies.
[03:14:52.720] >> Well, he saw the aftermaths, read
[03:14:55.680] reports.
[03:14:57.439] I'll show you a picture of Kit Green to
[03:14:59.040] me here in a afterwards. And um so I
[03:15:03.279] know
[03:15:05.359] what I know and I know that that's what
[03:15:07.120] they're interested in. Now,
[03:15:09.760] technically of what they're doing and
[03:15:12.399] how they're doing it and what they're
[03:15:13.920] doing with it, I don't know. I I I I
[03:15:16.239] wouldn't know. And I don't know what
[03:15:17.840] we're doing with their stuff because I I
[03:15:19.920] don't have a need to know that. And I I
[03:15:22.000] never was in a position to have access
[03:15:24.160] to that type of information.
[03:15:26.640] >> No. Well, it's a good guess as any, I
[03:15:28.560] think.
[03:15:28.880] >> Yeah. Exactly. You know, they want to
[03:15:30.479] know us. They don't want to know why
[03:15:31.520] we're And and again, you look at it in a
[03:15:34.239] different way, the Linda Howell way. And
[03:15:36.319] you know, God bless Linda How. She's
[03:15:38.160] she's a heck of an investigator and been
[03:15:40.239] fantastic for the Lord.
[03:15:41.840] >> Uh that that they were they've been here
[03:15:44.239] before us or they put us here. Uh maybe
[03:15:48.800] uh maybe they were here before us. I I
[03:15:52.800] this is Rick Dodie talking only. I
[03:15:55.200] thoroughly believe we had a civilization
[03:15:56.880] on Earth billions of years ago and that
[03:16:00.720] uh we they killed it killed themselves
[03:16:03.279] with nuclear weapons because you can go
[03:16:06.160] to places and I've been there in
[03:16:07.840] Malaysia and one place in Australia
[03:16:10.800] where there's remnants of of radiation
[03:16:13.920] that has gone through their life their
[03:16:15.920] half life and full life which is
[03:16:18.080] millions and and millions of years and
[03:16:20.800] you can find that stuff. Well, we didn't
[03:16:22.800] have radiation nuclear weapons uh
[03:16:25.680] millions and millions of years ago.
[03:16:28.080] >> And that couldn't be some type of like a
[03:16:30.479] radiated element like that's like
[03:16:33.279] plutonium or uranium or something.
[03:16:34.800] >> I think the experts are saying uh some
[03:16:37.439] of these uh trace elements that they
[03:16:40.000] found were isotopes from uh
[03:16:44.720] >> explosions,
[03:16:45.520] >> ionized radiation that we would have
[03:16:47.120] used in making a nuclear weapon.
[03:16:49.040] >> Wow.
[03:16:50.560] Interesting. And so I think at some
[03:16:52.720] point I think there was life on or years
[03:16:56.080] and maybe they went someplace and maybe
[03:16:58.800] they went into another dimension. Maybe
[03:17:00.479] they do live in another dimension
[03:17:02.000] >> underground
[03:17:02.960] >> um or or the bottom of the ocean.
[03:17:04.800] >> Yeah.
[03:17:05.120] >> I I have interviewed and I've and
[03:17:08.319] they've been on Gaia interviewed uh
[03:17:10.720] submarine commanders that will swear
[03:17:13.359] that there's civilizations on the bottom
[03:17:15.359] of the ocean.
[03:17:16.800] Have you looked into the 4chan
[03:17:19.840] whistleblower as it were? The uh guy who
[03:17:22.880] came out and talked about uh mobile
[03:17:25.120] construction units in the ocean, namely
[03:17:28.640] off the coast of in the Bahamas. In the
[03:17:30.880] >> Bahamas. Yeah.
[03:17:31.600] >> Yeah. What do you make of that?
[03:17:33.600] >> That's possible. You know,
[03:17:35.120] >> you've never had any crossover to like
[03:17:36.960] naval intelligence in that regard. One
[03:17:40.479] particular case that I worked was with
[03:17:44.880] naval intelligence
[03:17:47.200] um well no I'm sorry two one the Jamie
[03:17:50.720] Shander stuff
[03:17:52.239] >> that I talked about earlier and then
[03:17:54.239] this other case uh about what this um
[03:18:00.319] this I got to be careful. Yeah, I can
[03:18:02.880] see. Um,
[03:18:05.279] this guy was a crew member on a
[03:18:07.279] submarine uh in the probably 70s. I I I
[03:18:11.600] don't Yeah, it would have been the 70s.
[03:18:14.239] Um, they went someplace,
[03:18:17.359] they found something, he took a piece, a
[03:18:21.439] widget,
[03:18:23.600] and he took it and he got out of the
[03:18:25.279] Navy
[03:18:26.880] and he lived in uh Albuquerque, New
[03:18:29.200] Mexico.
[03:18:30.720] He worked on Kirtland Air Force Base as
[03:18:32.640] a civilian for a contractor.
[03:18:35.920] Um, and he gave this widget to the
[03:18:39.359] contractor to try to figure out what it
[03:18:41.760] was.
[03:18:43.359] And naval intelligence had gotten
[03:18:45.760] information. I can't go into all that,
[03:18:47.200] but they they they knew all about this.
[03:18:50.000] And they came to Albuquerque and said,
[03:18:52.080] "We need to go find this guy. We need to
[03:18:54.160] go, you know, pull him in. Um, we need
[03:18:57.040] to get the FBI involved because he's a
[03:18:58.479] civilian now." I said, "Okay, well, you
[03:19:00.560] know, we're federal agents and we could
[03:19:02.080] still do things, but we always like to
[03:19:03.600] have FBI with us, especially if it
[03:19:05.600] involves espionage because that's their
[03:19:07.520] Billy Wick."
[03:19:08.479] >> So, you know, we I get Jerry Brown and
[03:19:10.960] the guy I interface with the FBI. We go
[03:19:14.319] we uh go out to the base, I mean, yeah,
[03:19:17.680] to the base, the contract office. I
[03:19:20.000] can't tell you the contractor. And he is
[03:19:23.359] there. We walk in and he's standing
[03:19:25.920] there in front of us. uh just happened
[03:19:28.640] to be walking out of this lab and we
[03:19:31.120] called him by name and I said, "Are you
[03:19:32.800] so and so?" And you know, we all pull
[03:19:34.239] out our credentials, FBI, is OSI,
[03:19:38.000] NCIS or NIS. Uh we need to talk to you.
[03:19:41.840] He said, "They got it inside there. It's
[03:19:43.680] over there." That's what he said. That's
[03:19:45.600] his first words.
[03:19:47.920] So, and I says, "Well, that's not good
[03:19:50.000] enough. Come on in here." So we went
[03:19:51.600] into the little office in the coffee
[03:19:53.279] shop area and talked to him and and he
[03:19:56.239] and and then we took him over to the OSI
[03:19:58.000] office and then they did all the
[03:19:59.200] interrogation and stuff that So that's
[03:20:00.960] the case.
[03:20:02.000] >> What happened to the widget?
[03:20:03.200] >> Um the government took it. Well, no, you
[03:20:05.600] know what? I think they just kept it
[03:20:07.520] there at that lab because they're
[03:20:08.880] cleared for it.
[03:20:09.680] >> Oh yeah, the lab is already
[03:20:11.040] >> Yeah.
[03:20:11.439] >> So they just probably created some
[03:20:14.160] >> whatever the widget was. They are trying
[03:20:16.560] to figure out what the widget was. Yeah.
[03:20:18.720] That's the only other case that I worked
[03:20:20.640] with the naval intelligence on.
[03:20:22.800] >> Yeah. Well, it's interesting too because
[03:20:24.080] you have you have stories of the naval
[03:20:26.000] the department of naval intelligence as
[03:20:27.920] well, not just the office of naval
[03:20:30.080] intelligence. And the department comes
[03:20:32.239] up with, you know, Bob Lazar and it
[03:20:34.640] comes up a few other places. I know John
[03:20:36.319] Stewart had done some due diligence on,
[03:20:38.560] you know, finding other instances of
[03:20:40.239] that being mentioned, right? Uh, have
[03:20:42.319] you ever run into the department of off
[03:20:44.560] of naval intelligence? Never.
[03:20:46.399] >> No. Office of Naval Intelligence. only
[03:20:48.080] thing that I ever ran into. And and it
[03:20:51.040] other than those two cases, I'm sorry,
[03:20:54.560] there was one other case where we were
[03:20:56.640] uh No, it didn't have anything to do
[03:20:58.000] with uh your was an espionage case and
[03:21:02.319] uh O and I was involved in that and we
[03:21:04.960] interfaced a little bit with that.
[03:21:06.479] >> Yeah. But never the department. No. You
[03:21:07.920] never heard of it?
[03:21:09.760] >> No, not during my time. I never heard of
[03:21:11.439] it.
[03:21:11.680] >> Not during your time, but afterwards
[03:21:12.960] you'd heard of it because heard through
[03:21:14.479] Bob Lazar and everything else. Okay.
[03:21:17.279] Um,
[03:21:18.960] okay.
[03:21:20.239] >> Oh, one more thing. Uh, I'm gonna
[03:21:22.960] >> I'm going to bring up some questions. We
[03:21:24.319] have audience questions that we like to
[03:21:25.840] bring up.
[03:21:26.560] >> Uh, they were, you know, told of your
[03:21:28.399] arrival 12 hours ago and they had a
[03:21:30.399] limited time to ask questions, but
[03:21:32.800] >> you know, the question board filled up
[03:21:34.560] as you can imagine.
[03:21:36.080] >> Um,
[03:21:37.279] >> I [clears throat] bet.
[03:21:38.000] >> Yeah. But uh before we get there, I
[03:21:40.319] wanted to I wanted to ask you about uh
[03:21:42.720] Lou Alzando.
[03:21:44.800] Um
[03:21:46.319] there was mentioned some Space Force
[03:21:48.319] talk that you had run into Lou there. Is
[03:21:50.720] that accurate?
[03:21:51.920] >> Yeah, he he called me a long time ago uh
[03:21:56.000] um in 2021 or 22 and we talked on the
[03:22:00.880] phone and he was wondering if I he asked
[03:22:03.840] me if I was still working and I said no,
[03:22:06.560] which I wasn't. I I I I was I mean other
[03:22:08.800] than the Z's and Gaia and things and he
[03:22:11.520] said uh you would you'd be interested in
[03:22:13.840] working for uh Space Force and in
[03:22:15.920] counter intelligence office. I said what
[03:22:20.479] and I don't know who he is. Okay. I
[03:22:22.319] didn't know
[03:22:22.640] >> at that point. Yeah.
[03:22:23.760] >> I said no I'm not interested. I said I
[03:22:26.880] know a colonel up there. And I said did
[03:22:30.000] he give you my name? He said well I
[03:22:32.319] can't say that. And uh so that was it.
[03:22:36.479] And then a another person from the Space
[03:22:38.960] Force called me, you know, weeks later
[03:22:40.800] or something and asked me about uh
[03:22:43.200] working uh if I was interested in doing
[03:22:45.760] some field work if I could still get my
[03:22:48.000] security clearance back. He said, "I I
[03:22:50.960] understand you spoke with and he gave me
[03:22:52.720] a name of somebody." Well, this was a
[03:22:56.080] 2022, I'm sorry. Uh I said, "Yeah, I
[03:22:59.680] just was up there in in January 2022. I
[03:23:02.640] was called up to Washington to the
[03:23:04.640] defense uh uh IG's office. Uh they
[03:23:08.319] wanted to talk to me about some of the
[03:23:10.160] cases I ran uh as an OSI agent. And I
[03:23:15.040] said, "Sure." You know, "Do I get my
[03:23:16.720] security clearance back?" Uh
[03:23:20.319] oops. And I said, he said, "Yeah, yeah,
[03:23:22.560] yeah, you can talk about it." And they
[03:23:24.479] gave me a report. They passed a report
[03:23:27.439] to me
[03:23:29.439] and the report is heavily redacted. He
[03:23:32.880] said, ' Do you do you recognize this
[03:23:34.399] report? And I'm looking at it and I go
[03:23:36.000] and I look and I said, "Yeah, that's a
[03:23:38.239] report I did in in 1981." But I said, "I
[03:23:42.319] don't remember everything in here. Do
[03:23:43.920] you got one that's not redacted?" He
[03:23:46.239] said, "No, SI won't give it to us. It's
[03:23:48.319] still classified." I said, "Why are you
[03:23:50.160] giving me this?" He said, "We just need
[03:23:51.920] to know about it." I said, 'Well, I
[03:23:54.319] could tell you what I remember. It's
[03:23:57.120] nothing about what we've spoken here.
[03:23:59.040] And I I told him what I could could
[03:24:01.200] remember. Well, then in uh that person's
[03:24:05.279] name was given to me from that person
[03:24:07.600] from Space Force and and and I can't I
[03:24:10.960] went back there in September of 2022 and
[03:24:13.279] they had an unredacted report that I
[03:24:15.279] talked to him about. So,
[03:24:17.680] that's uh that's that's all. And I never
[03:24:20.239] worked for Space Force. I never promised
[03:24:23.279] to work for Space Force. So, yeah.
[03:24:25.840] >> What's Space Force's interest in wanting
[03:24:30.080] to work uh in in in wanting to hire you
[03:24:33.600] potentially for counter intelligence?
[03:24:35.840] >> I never got that far,
[03:24:37.120] >> but I mean, you you can surmise. Well, I
[03:24:39.920] think I think they want they wanted to
[03:24:44.399] uh contract me to do what I did before
[03:24:47.439] as a contractor uh and um
[03:24:50.560] >> cover up UFO stuff.
[03:24:51.680] >> Yeah. Spy on people
[03:24:53.120] >> for UFO.
[03:24:54.160] >> Yeah.
[03:24:54.640] >> Yeah. [snorts]
[03:24:56.479] >> Okay.
[03:24:56.720] >> That's what I think. Again, I don't
[03:24:58.399] know.
[03:24:58.800] >> I can assume that too because otherwise,
[03:25:00.800] you know,
[03:25:01.120] >> why would they want me?
[03:25:02.000] >> Go get someone who's, you know, uh green
[03:25:04.560] around the gills or whatever and you
[03:25:06.399] know.
[03:25:07.040] >> Um yeah. So that's really interesting.
[03:25:09.200] And what are these here? We have project
[03:25:10.720] capstone white, auburn blue, medlap
[03:25:12.960] star, candid sky.
[03:25:14.160] >> Those are all cases that I
[03:25:17.680] uh briefly spoke about here
[03:25:20.080] >> during Okay. You can't say which one is
[03:25:22.880] which.
[03:25:23.200] >> No. And these are all the cases.
[03:25:25.279] >> Those are all the case files that I did
[03:25:27.520] >> that we can foyer that you've that
[03:25:29.840] >> I'll tell you I tell you that's been on
[03:25:31.760] the internet for Yeah.
[03:25:32.960] >> about four years and a million people's
[03:25:35.279] foyer. In fact, the Foya monitor of a a
[03:25:38.239] woman uh F I think her name is Fton Noi
[03:25:41.439] called me up and said, "You don't know
[03:25:42.960] what you've done." [laughter]
[03:25:45.840] >> I said, "Uh,
[03:25:47.439] >> well, you'll get some, but they're
[03:25:50.239] heavily redacted, of course." In fact,
[03:25:52.239] this one here,
[03:25:54.560] uh, 82 is it right here?
[03:25:58.000] >> You You can get that one. It's 87 page
[03:26:00.880] of nothing. There's not even the page
[03:26:03.600] numbers are releasable.
[03:26:05.439] >> Oh wow.
[03:26:06.000] >> Which is stupid.
[03:26:07.120] >> It's just all redacted.
[03:26:08.560] >> It's all redacted. And and I'd say that
[03:26:11.840] one probably
[03:26:13.520] >> is should be redacted.
[03:26:16.239] >> But Oh, really?
[03:26:17.040] >> There's some that are redacted that are
[03:26:19.120] They should
[03:26:20.399] >> Wait, why should that one be redacted?
[03:26:22.160] because it involves something very very
[03:26:23.760] very sensitive and and it would disclose
[03:26:27.439] sources and methods and it would uh
[03:26:30.880] national security
[03:26:32.239] >> and it has to do with aliens
[03:26:34.319] >> definitely. Whoa.
[03:26:36.080] >> So, are we talking treaty level stuff?
[03:26:38.560] >> I don't know about treaties, but um I
[03:26:41.680] don't believe in we ever had a treaty
[03:26:42.960] with him, but that's me. But there's
[03:26:44.720] some here that are are redacted that
[03:26:49.279] should never be redacted. I mean, maybe.
[03:26:51.520] Yeah. Sightings and that. Yeah. But some
[03:26:53.840] of the things that pilots, most of that
[03:26:56.239] stuff, a lot of that, not most of it,
[03:26:58.319] some of it involves pilots.
[03:27:00.239] >> Yeah.
[03:27:00.880] >> Um
[03:27:02.479] >> pilots flying uh classified missions.
[03:27:05.279] >> Oh, I see.
[03:27:06.080] >> Seeing UFOs and the fact that their
[03:27:09.040] mission was classified,
[03:27:11.520] uh you can't talk about that. And they
[03:27:14.319] they had a close encount or they had a
[03:27:16.720] >> Yeah. you know, they saw the UFO, it
[03:27:18.640] chased them or they chased it or they
[03:27:20.800] shot it down or there was there's chew
[03:27:22.720] in there where they actually shot down
[03:27:24.800] something, but it mended itself and it
[03:27:27.840] flew back. It was like uh
[03:27:31.279] uh this this is way before Transformers
[03:27:34.479] sure movie ever came out,
[03:27:36.160] >> but you had I mean, you know, I at a as
[03:27:38.080] a kid I had one of those, you know,
[03:27:40.479] >> and um this this pilot, and I can't go
[03:27:43.680] into great details, was flying a
[03:27:44.960] classified mission and he's he's
[03:27:49.120] covering for this other aircraft and um
[03:27:53.600] if this is in the United States, they're
[03:27:55.520] I can tell you they're flying out of the
[03:27:57.600] Groom Lake area and this thing comes up.
[03:28:01.680] A flying saucer comes up and almost hits
[03:28:05.120] his cockpit. I mean, his canopy almost
[03:28:08.479] just goes right over it. It really
[03:28:11.200] pisses him off. So, he banks and he goes
[03:28:13.439] after it and he's protecting this other
[03:28:16.880] flying highly classified craft. And it
[03:28:20.960] goes down and he goes down and shoots
[03:28:22.880] it. He shoots at it with this side
[03:28:24.880] winder missile,
[03:28:26.800] two of them, and it hits it and it
[03:28:29.200] crashes. Now, he's in a jet, so he can't
[03:28:32.319] obviously land. So, he's circling it.
[03:28:35.520] And this thing, he says it repaired
[03:28:37.439] itself and it flew away.
[03:28:40.000] And it reminded me of the Transformer,
[03:28:42.399] you know, movies. Yeah, I like those
[03:28:44.399] things.
[03:28:45.279] >> But, but something like that was in that
[03:28:47.359] report. And yeah, I guess that that
[03:28:50.239] would be classified. um the the details
[03:28:53.439] and there's a lot more to that that I
[03:28:55.200] can't talk about.
[03:28:56.080] >> There's a is there a lot of alien
[03:28:57.439] encounters in these?
[03:28:59.439] >> Uh a few
[03:29:01.439] >> there's a few
[03:29:02.319] >> there's there's one that's that's uh
[03:29:05.279] probably the best
[03:29:07.279] >> story is uh you want to hear it?
[03:29:10.160] >> Yeah, please.
[03:29:11.439] >> This Air Force pilot [clears throat]
[03:29:14.239] loves fishing. So, he's up in a lake,
[03:29:16.880] northern Mexico, lakes all over the
[03:29:18.560] place. Uh, fishing. Uh, just him. He's
[03:29:21.359] camping, too. He he sets up his tent
[03:29:24.160] and, you know, he's camping. It's
[03:29:26.720] there's a stream and then there's a
[03:29:28.399] lake, very small lake. And he's fishing
[03:29:31.600] and there's a clearing. Uh, he's in a
[03:29:33.760] very wooded area except for the lake.
[03:29:35.600] And then off to his uh north uh yeah,
[03:29:40.000] northwood is a clearing. And one morning
[03:29:42.880] he gets up and he eats his breakfast and
[03:29:44.800] he goes and throws pole in and he's he
[03:29:47.760] he hears a sound. He he says, "I've
[03:29:51.120] never heard the sound before." He said,
[03:29:53.359] "It's like a pulsating
[03:29:55.600] b
[03:29:57.279] sound." And he looks and looks. He
[03:30:00.800] thought something. It's like something's
[03:30:03.600] shooting down something. Maybe a pulse
[03:30:06.640] ray or something. And that's what he's
[03:30:08.560] thinking. He's a pilot. He's an air
[03:30:10.720] force. uh uh pilot. He flies F F
[03:30:17.760] A A A A A A A A A A7DS
[03:30:19.680] as jets. Yep. And um so then he sees it
[03:30:23.120] and it starts to come down and it's pul
[03:30:25.359] something's pulsating under it. This is
[03:30:28.160] flying saucers.
[03:30:30.160] >> So he immediately goes over and he has a
[03:30:32.560] camera. In fact, one of those uh
[03:30:36.000] >> Polaroid
[03:30:36.479] >> polar caneras he has in his in his tent
[03:30:39.439] because he always takes pictures of his
[03:30:41.040] fish.
[03:30:42.880] He gets his Polaroid camera and he comes
[03:30:44.880] out because he's he then he drops his P.
[03:30:47.840] He goes over to the clearing to the tree
[03:30:50.160] line to take pictures of this and he
[03:30:54.080] said from the tent to the tree line is
[03:30:58.160] maybe 60 70 yards, you know.
[03:31:01.920] >> Mhm. He gets over and he's waiting and
[03:31:04.880] he starts taking pictures and next thing
[03:31:07.359] you know there's two beans right next to
[03:31:09.920] him. He says scared him. He dropped his
[03:31:12.479] camera and these things were like 7 foot
[03:31:15.520] tall. They had helmets on. He couldn't
[03:31:18.560] see their face. And he goes into the
[03:31:20.800] whole details of of what they did and
[03:31:22.960] and he thought, "Oh my god, they're
[03:31:24.399] going to abduct me." That's what he's
[03:31:26.160] thinking. Now, this is interesting
[03:31:27.920] because
[03:31:30.720] he wasn't briefed into UFOs. I mean, of
[03:31:34.880] what a pilot would normally get training
[03:31:37.359] and they do to get some of that.
[03:31:38.640] >> Yeah.
[03:31:39.279] >> He didn't know about UF abductions, but
[03:31:42.640] that came into his mind
[03:31:44.960] >> and that was interesting the interview
[03:31:47.120] and inter interrogation later about why
[03:31:49.680] he thought that. But anyways,
[03:31:52.479] he he looks and and these things are and
[03:31:55.760] then he starts hearing voices in his
[03:31:57.600] head and he thought, "They're
[03:31:59.520] communicating with me." So he sits down
[03:32:02.720] and he he never could explain why he sat
[03:32:05.200] down, but he sat down on the ground and
[03:32:08.080] he doesn't know how long this occurred,
[03:32:10.880] but he when he w when he woke up, he was
[03:32:13.200] in his sleeping bag in his tent.
[03:32:16.080] >> It was dark.
[03:32:18.319] He knows that he got up at 7 in the
[03:32:20.880] morning. He knows he made breakfast and
[03:32:23.279] and and had a campfire and then he went
[03:32:25.840] fishing and it was like 15 or 20 minutes
[03:32:28.319] after he started fishing that this
[03:32:29.439] happened. So he figured it was about
[03:32:30.880] 8:30 in the morning and when he looked
[03:32:34.399] at his clock it was 21:30
[03:32:37.279] 9:30
[03:32:38.960] p.m.
[03:32:40.080] >> He doesn't know what happened and he
[03:32:43.439] he was it scared him. He goes over to
[03:32:46.239] the tree line where he dropped his
[03:32:49.120] camera. Polar, it was still there. Polar
[03:32:50.880] was still there. And he knew he took two
[03:32:53.359] pictures of the craft.
[03:32:56.000] He thought he had taken one of them.
[03:32:58.960] Well, the pictures of the craft was on
[03:33:01.439] that were there. You know, they you know
[03:33:03.439] how they pop out and they're on the
[03:33:04.800] ground.
[03:33:05.920] >> One had been, you know, when you don't
[03:33:07.920] take the Yeah. It kind of smudges. One
[03:33:11.439] was unrecognizable, but one wasn't
[03:33:14.080] >> very clear.
[03:33:14.640] >> Very clear. Well, he comes into the OS
[03:33:17.279] he calls the OSI office uh Monday. Uh
[03:33:20.560] this this happened on a I think a
[03:33:22.239] Sunday, Saturday or Sunday. Uh he calls
[03:33:24.720] the OSI office. He said, "I need to come
[03:33:27.359] in to talk to somebody." And this is
[03:33:29.359] what he said. All our phones are calls
[03:33:31.439] are recorded. And there's just a clerk
[03:33:33.600] that takes the call, the secretary. It's
[03:33:35.520] not agent. I need to come in and talk to
[03:33:38.479] somebody that uh handles UFOs. That's or
[03:33:42.319] flying saucers.
[03:33:44.160] And secretary says, "Uh, okay. Uh, what
[03:33:47.920] happened? I I I think I I I was abducted
[03:33:52.080] and I need to talk to somebody. I'm a
[03:33:54.239] captain in United States Air Force." And
[03:33:56.720] she said, "Well, just a minute." So, she
[03:33:58.560] puts on the agent that's duty agent, not
[03:34:02.160] not a counter intelligence.
[03:34:03.600] >> Oh, okay. So the that agent then I'm in
[03:34:07.359] I just get to the office and uh I just
[03:34:10.720] sit down and I'm in a secure area takes
[03:34:12.800] me back you know I had to unlock
[03:34:14.720] everything and to get there and he and
[03:34:18.399] my intercom ring says uh uh Richard you
[03:34:20.800] got to call on whatever I pick up and
[03:34:23.439] see this special may help you.
[03:34:25.920] >> Yeah. Do you hand do you handle flying
[03:34:27.359] saucers? And I think he's a cook sure
[03:34:29.680] cuz I get these. I said uh yeah did you
[03:34:32.479] see one? Yeah, I saw one. I took a
[03:34:34.720] picture of one. Uh I'm an a captain of
[03:34:37.279] the United States Air Force. And the way
[03:34:38.800] he talked, I thought he was
[03:34:40.560] This is a call. I said, "Okay."
[03:34:43.680] Uh I said, "Where you where you
[03:34:45.359] stationed at?" He said, "I'm stationed
[03:34:47.279] at Kirtland."
[03:34:49.040] I said, "Okay." I said, "Well, why don't
[03:34:51.359] you come down to the OSI office?" And
[03:34:53.279] and I he said, "I thought I had to make
[03:34:55.040] appointment." I said, "Just come down
[03:34:56.160] OSI office. I'll I'll look at it." So he
[03:34:58.960] comes down.
[03:35:00.000] you know, an hour later, whatever it
[03:35:01.760] was, he comes in, he's in uniform.
[03:35:05.439] I said, "Have a seat, Captain." I said,
[03:35:07.279] "What happened?" And he tells me the
[03:35:08.640] whole story that I just told you. I
[03:35:10.239] said, "Where's a picture?" And he bolted
[03:35:12.560] across and it's a picture of something.
[03:35:14.479] It wasn't on the ground. It was
[03:35:15.760] hovering, but there's distortion under
[03:35:18.720] it.
[03:35:21.520] like something's blocking t you know the
[03:35:25.760] the something's blocking the view of the
[03:35:29.279] other side
[03:35:31.040] like a pulse or something. I said where
[03:35:33.840] did you tell? And then he tells me story
[03:35:35.279] and I said wow. I said did you have
[03:35:38.399] missing time? He said yeah about 10
[03:35:41.279] hours.
[03:35:43.680] I said okay [clears throat]
[03:35:46.000] we'll need to we'll need to start an
[03:35:47.840] investigation on this. And we did. And
[03:35:50.880] you know, number one, he's a captain,
[03:35:52.880] United States Air Force. He's a pilot.
[03:35:55.279] Um, he passed a polygraph. He passed a
[03:35:58.239] hypnosis.
[03:35:59.920] Uh, he has a picture. He has evidence.
[03:36:02.239] >> Yeah.
[03:36:02.800] >> So, we go back up there like four
[03:36:07.200] five days later. It's a 250 mi north of
[03:36:11.920] where Kurland, but we went up there,
[03:36:13.520] myself and and another agent and him.
[03:36:16.880] Um, we followed him up there. He took us
[03:36:19.760] to You had to park and walk a distance
[03:36:23.040] down to where he was at. His tent was
[03:36:25.439] still there. I said, "Well, when we
[03:36:28.960] walked down, I said, "Somebody's
[03:36:30.080] camping." He said, "No, that's my tent."
[03:36:31.920] I said, "You left your tent?" He said,
[03:36:33.680] "I had to get out of here quickly." So,
[03:36:37.439] his fishing pole was still down by the
[03:36:39.359] water. So, everything he told us,
[03:36:41.439] >> Yeah. checked
[03:36:42.080] >> evidence is there. So, I said, "What?
[03:36:44.720] Where did you wake up?" He said, "I wake
[03:36:46.080] up in a tent in my sleep bag." So, we
[03:36:47.760] took the sleep bag as evidence, you
[03:36:49.840] know, and we took his clothes. I said,
[03:36:51.279] "We need the clothes that you were
[03:36:53.040] wearing."
[03:36:53.600] >> Yeah.
[03:36:54.239] >> In, you know, trace evidence and stuff.
[03:36:56.880] And he did. And so, that was a
[03:36:58.399] legitimate incident. And that's that's
[03:37:00.160] one of these cases here. That's
[03:37:02.239] absolutely real.
[03:37:04.000] >> Wow. I feel like that one can be
[03:37:05.359] unredacted.
[03:37:06.800] >> Oh, absolutely. Mo most of it can be
[03:37:09.279] because it's it's anecdotal.
[03:37:10.800] >> Yeah. Exactly.
[03:37:11.680] >> Yeah. if you don't provide the photo or
[03:37:13.359] anything else. I mean, it's just
[03:37:14.319] anecdotal.
[03:37:16.000] >> Interesting. Interesting. Okay, I'm
[03:37:18.479] gonna I got a camera back here. I'm
[03:37:19.840] going to turn it on so that we can film
[03:37:21.040] this thing and we'll get to some
[03:37:22.479] questions.
[03:37:22.960] >> Okay.
[03:37:23.279] >> How you feeling?
[03:37:23.920] >> Good. Good. Good.
[03:37:25.920] >> All right. For those in the know, if
[03:37:28.720] you're a member here, you get access to
[03:37:31.359] our Discord and on that uh when we have
[03:37:34.399] guests, you're alerted maybe 12 hours in
[03:37:36.399] advance about the guest and you have an
[03:37:38.239] opportunity to ask the guest a question.
[03:37:40.399] Well, this time I think I think the
[03:37:43.520] prompt wasn't up for 10 minutes before
[03:37:45.359] it started getting flooded. So, um,
[03:37:48.319] clearly sparking some interest here. And
[03:37:51.920] we're going to get to the first
[03:37:52.960] question. So, thank you to everybody who
[03:37:54.479] asked questions. Sorry I couldn't get
[03:37:55.840] through all of them,
[03:37:57.920] but uh,
[03:38:00.640] here we go.
[03:38:06.720] Okay. Okay, some of these we've actually
[03:38:08.160] answered, so I'm I'm going to I'm going
[03:38:09.760] to skim past them. But this is an
[03:38:11.040] interesting one.
[03:38:20.319] Uh in this one, what is your conviction
[03:38:22.720] on the portal somewhere in the US that
[03:38:25.120] Coltard alludes to? Ross Coltard uh
[03:38:27.760] talked about I I think a portal in in
[03:38:30.800] perhaps Soma or or that area. What's
[03:38:33.840] your conviction level?
[03:38:35.680] Well, this goes back to uh a rather long
[03:38:40.160] uh story about time travel, but um make
[03:38:45.040] it as short as again I was involved in a
[03:38:49.359] counter intelligence operation. Uh
[03:38:51.520] Sandia National Laboratories had a
[03:38:54.080] operation where they were experimenting
[03:38:56.000] with time travel trying to trying to
[03:38:58.080] create time travel and it was being done
[03:39:00.239] there at Kirtland and also out at Nevada
[03:39:02.080] Test Site. Well, they had uh
[03:39:04.960] advertisements in different magazines.
[03:39:06.640] Of course, the internet wasn't around
[03:39:07.920] back in that days. And some this person
[03:39:11.200] responded to Sandy Lab and said, "I'm a
[03:39:13.200] time traveler. I can prove it." We did a
[03:39:15.840] full investigation. This guy went down
[03:39:17.920] to Arizona near Sedona and said, "I can
[03:39:21.439] walk through a time portal and then come
[03:39:23.840] back out." Uh Sandia went down there. We
[03:39:26.640] all went down there. This guy we thought
[03:39:28.880] was full of it, but he actually walked
[03:39:31.680] through something and uh to the best of
[03:39:34.880] my knowledge, you know, although I
[03:39:36.560] didn't do a lot of followup on this,
[03:39:38.800] he's never returned.
[03:39:40.640] >> You do you saw this?
[03:39:42.080] >> I saw this.
[03:39:42.960] >> You saw him walk into a portal.
[03:39:44.640] >> I saw him walk through a uh a crevice in
[03:39:48.800] a rock. It it was a rockfaced and it was
[03:39:52.560] a small crevice and he walked through
[03:39:54.720] that crevice and it wasn't anything.
[03:39:57.680] nothing on the other side. It was being
[03:39:59.120] filmed.
[03:39:59.680] >> Could he fit in the crevice?
[03:40:01.439] >> He barely fit in the cre in the crevice
[03:40:04.160] and we were some distance away from him.
[03:40:06.479] And then uh somebody said, "Well, okay,
[03:40:09.760] he's in there." And and so we waited. We
[03:40:12.960] you know, his his uh story was he was
[03:40:15.680] going to go in and then come back out
[03:40:17.359] and bring something from and I don't
[03:40:19.359] remember if it was from the past or the
[03:40:20.960] future. I I don't remember that. And um
[03:40:24.960] he never came out. at least the longest.
[03:40:27.279] We were there for hours and hours and he
[03:40:29.760] never came out. We went down there or
[03:40:31.680] Sandy Labs went down there and and other
[03:40:34.000] contractors and looked at the crevice
[03:40:35.760] and figured you know how did he get out
[03:40:38.239] of here?
[03:40:39.359] It seems so silly to me that one can
[03:40:42.960] just call the the most, you know,
[03:40:47.439] secured sort of facilities uh that are
[03:40:51.359] doing the most sensitive technical
[03:40:53.920] technological advancements that, you
[03:40:56.080] know, US Department of Defense has ever
[03:40:58.160] seen and could just claim they're a time
[03:41:00.000] traveler and you'll
[03:41:03.200] you'll, you know, um send out people and
[03:41:06.479] and have a budget approved
[03:41:08.560] to go follow these people who just claim
[03:41:10.479] these things. Like
[03:41:11.439] >> I gave you the short version.
[03:41:12.960] >> Oh, I see.
[03:41:13.600] >> There was a lot
[03:41:16.239] investigations on this guy.
[03:41:19.040] >> Um we did background background
[03:41:21.600] background. Um and that this is what
[03:41:24.399] makes it really interesting. the only
[03:41:27.279] the only date of birth for that name of
[03:41:30.640] that person that we could find and we
[03:41:33.760] have
[03:41:35.279] even back in the 80s we had you know the
[03:41:38.399] defense index of of indices we had the
[03:41:42.239] FBI the IR everything we searched
[03:41:44.800] everything was somebody that was born in
[03:41:46.800] 19 in 1879
[03:41:49.520] and uh I think it was
[03:41:52.640] uh some I think it was Billing was
[03:41:55.200] Montana but someplace else and I think
[03:41:57.520] it was Montana. That's the only name we
[03:42:00.080] could find that that fit that person.
[03:42:04.640] >> And so
[03:42:05.520] >> was that who he was claiming to be?
[03:42:06.800] >> Yeah, he was claiming to be that person.
[03:42:08.560] And he gave us all sorts of uh I mean,
[03:42:12.479] and again, I wasn't the main person that
[03:42:15.920] investigated him. Other agents did that,
[03:42:18.239] so I don't know everything that was
[03:42:19.920] done, but you know, I had a report that
[03:42:22.160] I'd read. They went out to where he
[03:42:24.399] claimed he lived in Barstow, California.
[03:42:26.720] They checked his residence. They checked
[03:42:28.800] where he supposedly worked. Uh he
[03:42:31.920] claimed he'd worked in some place in uh
[03:42:35.439] uh Bend, Oregon uh in 1934 or something
[03:42:39.439] like that. Some some date. They went up
[03:42:42.560] there. Uh the company didn't exist
[03:42:44.960] anymore. Nobody knew anything about. So
[03:42:47.600] there's there was no checking. He
[03:42:49.439] couldn't check. He claimed he was
[03:42:51.840] something in 1920. I can't remember.
[03:42:53.760] Something about 1920 where he was in New
[03:42:57.120] York or um on a ship or something and
[03:43:02.000] they couldn't find anything. Uh there
[03:43:04.640] was there was something else that they
[03:43:07.200] found that verified that name. I think
[03:43:09.040] it was on a ship manifest from um Cuba
[03:43:13.040] to uh to New York uh in 19 something
[03:43:19.279] 1907 or something a name.
[03:43:21.760] >> How strange.
[03:43:22.560] >> But that's they they did all that stuff.
[03:43:25.359] So and somebody you know I guess Sandy
[03:43:28.399] Labs decided they were going to hire him
[03:43:30.800] if he can do this. and they did a lot of
[03:43:33.120] background and they did a lot of
[03:43:35.040] examination of him psychological and and
[03:43:37.680] physical and all that and that's
[03:43:39.279] something they did. I didn't I wasn't
[03:43:40.720] involved any of that.
[03:43:41.600] >> Was there any other instances of time
[03:43:44.080] travel that you were maybe briefed on?
[03:43:48.000] >> Um
[03:43:50.960] yes, but that was part of the Sandia uh
[03:43:54.239] labs experiments and I'm pretty sure
[03:43:56.800] that's still probably proprietary. Uh
[03:43:58.880] but there were uh I think two cases
[03:44:02.399] where
[03:44:04.239] there was legitimate
[03:44:06.640] evidence of something traveling.
[03:44:10.000] >> What's your
[03:44:11.279] >> uh back in time I think it was. Yeah.
[03:44:13.520] >> Which Back in Time is interesting.
[03:44:14.960] What's your conviction level on looking
[03:44:16.880] glass?
[03:44:19.750] [clears throat]
[03:44:20.399] >> I don't know enough about it. I just
[03:44:21.920] know what I've read in uh you know open
[03:44:24.479] sources but
[03:44:25.439] >> Okay.
[03:44:25.760] >> No, I don't know anything. Never come
[03:44:27.199] across any type of device that peers
[03:44:29.040] into time.
[03:44:31.600] >> Oh
[03:44:33.439] um
[03:44:35.680] um yeah there the widget. Let's go back
[03:44:38.239] to the widget.
[03:44:39.120] >> Okay.
[03:44:39.600] >> We got a widget from our friends or
[03:44:41.760] visitors.
[03:44:43.600] >> Well like the yellow book.
[03:44:46.239] >> Yeah the yellow book.
[03:44:48.319] >> So that's uh
[03:44:49.520] >> the yellow book. That's it.
[03:44:51.199] >> And that's your high conviction on that?
[03:44:54.960] That's my only I mean I've heard other
[03:44:56.800] people talk but I me personally I didn't
[03:44:59.279] experience anything uh regarding time
[03:45:02.000] travel other than what I saw during the
[03:45:05.120] experiments that were happening uh at
[03:45:08.319] other places like in Nevada test site
[03:45:10.479] there was an underground facility that
[03:45:12.000] had these huge magnets and they were
[03:45:13.520] shooting things through the magnets
[03:45:14.880] again I'm not a scientist so I'm just
[03:45:17.120] lay lay persons explaining what I saw
[03:45:19.840] >> and I saw at one time and they were
[03:45:21.520] doing experiments something opened
[03:45:24.960] And a scientist was standing next to me.
[03:45:27.279] I said, "What's that?" He says, "You
[03:45:29.199] just saw the fabric of space opening."
[03:45:31.600] >> Wow.
[03:45:32.800] >> And for a split I mean it wasn't like it
[03:45:34.640] open just for a split second. I mean or
[03:45:37.439] you know whatever a second but that's I
[03:45:40.239] saw that and and so they in 1980s
[03:45:45.520] uh they were able to do that. So just
[03:45:47.600] imagine what they could do now. I can't,
[03:45:50.960] you know, we spoke about this at dinner
[03:45:52.239] yesterday, but like with the exponential
[03:45:54.479] growth of technology and how fast that's
[03:45:57.040] moving, um, you know, what looks like
[03:45:59.359] the the stealth bomber in 2010, you
[03:46:03.199] know, to the people in 1980 might look
[03:46:05.279] futuristic, but what 30 years from now
[03:46:08.239] looks like would be indistinguishable
[03:46:10.160] from alien tech. I I I believe um I
[03:46:14.000] think that anything we see that's 30
[03:46:15.520] years advanced with the exponential
[03:46:17.600] growth including AI and everything else.
[03:46:19.199] I mean I don't even think we could
[03:46:21.359] imagine what that might look like in 30
[03:46:23.760] years.
[03:46:24.080] >> Did you have you ever heard of the
[03:46:25.439] Lancaster incident?
[03:46:26.880] >> No.
[03:46:27.359] >> Lancaster, Pennsylvania in you heard of
[03:46:29.359] that?
[03:46:30.640] >> There's a story that was written in a
[03:46:32.800] book uh and Bill Moore had the book.
[03:46:35.439] It's an old old book. Uh it was written
[03:46:38.080] in 18 you know something. Anyways,
[03:46:40.399] Lancaster, Pennsylvania during the Civil
[03:46:42.720] War.
[03:46:44.720] Um, there was a photographer that was at
[03:46:47.600] a battlefield. Uh, I think he was Union.
[03:46:51.279] Pretty sure he was Union and he was
[03:46:53.439] because they had the big cameras and
[03:46:55.439] they took this picture of the
[03:46:57.439] battlefield, but in the background of
[03:46:59.920] that picture, you would see a jet, which
[03:47:03.680] looked to me like a B1B bomber.
[03:47:06.000] >> Whoa.
[03:47:07.120] >> How h how'd that happen? And so I mean
[03:47:10.880] that was there was a guy that spoke at a
[03:47:12.880] UFO convention way back about 2005 or
[03:47:15.040] six about that picture but all he had
[03:47:18.000] was that picture. There's no
[03:47:19.920] explanation, no evidence of the real,
[03:47:22.960] you know, nobody has a real it's a
[03:47:24.560] picture of a picture of a picture.
[03:47:25.920] >> Yeah. You see you see those photos pop
[03:47:27.760] up where like oh is this a time traveler
[03:47:29.520] and that type of stuff.
[03:47:30.720] >> How did what how did that plane get
[03:47:33.120] there?
[03:47:33.520] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[03:47:36.319] >> Interesting. All right. Let's get to the
[03:47:38.000] next question. Thanks for answering
[03:47:39.199] that. Um,
[03:47:41.840] >> this is a good one from Chris in Austin,
[03:47:44.080] Texas.
[03:47:54.720] He asks, "What was the most serious UAP
[03:47:57.040] incident or slash encounter that you
[03:47:58.640] were briefed on?" I think, you know,
[03:48:00.800] speaking about that uh Air Force uh
[03:48:05.040] captain, was it?
[03:48:06.080] >> Yeah,
[03:48:06.800] >> probably. Yeah, that would probably be
[03:48:08.720] the
[03:48:09.359] >> Yeah,
[03:48:10.399] >> the the most serious. Uh there uh there
[03:48:13.600] was another uh incident. I wasn't again
[03:48:16.399] directly involved in it
[03:48:18.640] >> that happened actually within the Nellis
[03:48:21.279] testing range
[03:48:23.040] >> um that uh was incredible and I actually
[03:48:27.199] have the statement from the guy that
[03:48:32.160] sent me this. Uh he was actually there
[03:48:34.640] and it happened in um
[03:48:38.160] the the 70s
[03:48:41.920] um
[03:48:44.160] Steve it happened in 19 Well yeah
[03:48:47.840] if you read that and you read the um
[03:48:51.520] um a certain air force person that came
[03:48:54.960] out saying that he was involved in some
[03:48:57.199] incident. Uh this is a story that
[03:49:03.120] uh was I talked about on Gaia uh
[03:49:08.880] four years before um this particular Air
[03:49:12.560] Force guy came out to public. So
[03:49:15.600] >> and what exactly goes on here? Uh this
[03:49:19.359] there was an air force team out at
[03:49:21.120] Nellis test and training range that was
[03:49:23.279] going from one place to another and they
[03:49:25.600] ran across an extraterrestrial walking
[03:49:28.080] along the road.
[03:49:29.600] >> Right.
[03:49:32.560] Whoa. And they uh panicked. The vehicle
[03:49:36.479] shut down. They uh they had a radio uh
[03:49:41.920] in their vehicle and they tried to call
[03:49:44.000] for help. They finally uh got a got a
[03:49:48.479] worker, it wasn't a a
[03:49:52.399] a policeman or anything or camel dude to
[03:49:56.560] report it and eventually it was reported
[03:49:59.199] to o uh to OSI.
[03:50:02.640] that kind of follows the same story that
[03:50:04.720] another person who talked about, but
[03:50:07.040] this happened in um
[03:50:10.479] you know and and uh
[03:50:13.199] the same time period that he's talking
[03:50:17.120] about,
[03:50:18.080] >> but this is verified.
[03:50:20.800] >> Um this isn't like I mean you you've
[03:50:23.359] heard of the Jason Sans
[03:50:24.560] >> Jason Sans that's talking about. Yeah.
[03:50:26.560] >> I don't want to name name you mentioned
[03:50:28.160] his name so
[03:50:29.199] >> Yeah.
[03:50:29.520] >> Yeah. So that's similar
[03:50:31.439] >> similar or Jason got it from here. I
[03:50:35.600] don't know. I don't know. I don't know.
[03:50:37.760] >> But yeah, in and around the same time
[03:50:39.840] frame
[03:50:40.640] >> area as well.
[03:50:41.760] >> Yeah. Same
[03:50:42.399] >> being as well described
[03:50:43.760] >> being
[03:50:44.399] >> blue skin. Yeah. Wow.
[03:50:46.479] >> But if you go to a guy at my I can't I
[03:50:49.120] think it was episode 80 or something.
[03:50:52.000] >> This was this was told,
[03:50:54.960] >> right?
[03:50:55.439] >> And that's two years before Jason Sand
[03:50:58.080] came out.
[03:50:58.560] >> I see. I see. So, you're saying that
[03:51:00.640] there might be some type of overlap in
[03:51:03.760] this material or
[03:51:04.640] >> maybe they just had a different
[03:51:05.600] incident. I'm not saying Jason lying.
[03:51:07.279] I'm just saying that
[03:51:08.560] >> Yeah.
[03:51:09.359] >> doesn't fit.
[03:51:10.720] >> Yeah. Yeah. One of the stories is
[03:51:12.160] already out there. So, it it definitely
[03:51:13.520] takes away from some of the credibility,
[03:51:15.040] >> right? Yeah. Okay, fair enough. Um
[03:51:21.040] I think uh do we do I think we have one
[03:51:23.920] more here.
[03:51:26.720] Um, actually, let let me ask you one
[03:51:29.920] last question. See if you want to maybe
[03:51:32.319] a bit of a game. Can you give me
[03:51:36.319] two truths in a lie?
[03:51:39.840] >> Two truths and a lie
[03:51:41.920] >> and I won't attempt to guess anything
[03:51:44.560] and we'll just leave it at that.
[03:51:46.399] >> So, you can say,
[03:51:47.439] >> "Okay."
[03:51:48.000] >> Whatever.
[03:51:48.560] >> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. We we we
[03:51:51.600] actually played this game in um in the
[03:51:54.080] intelligence operations course.
[03:51:55.920] interesting
[03:51:56.479] >> to each other for a psychological test.
[03:51:58.479] Yeah. Um I'm not going to tell you.
[03:52:02.239] Okay.
[03:52:02.640] >> Don't tell me anything. Just
[03:52:03.760] >> Okay. Um in 1980,
[03:52:08.479] I was um
[03:52:11.920] driving from uh in New Mexico. I was
[03:52:15.760] stationed in New Mexico. I was driving
[03:52:17.120] from one place to another to pick up a
[03:52:20.399] good friend of mine. He came in at an
[03:52:22.399] airport that wasn't an Albuquerque
[03:52:23.840] airport. Okay. And um along the way
[03:52:28.000] after I picked him up, I was it was
[03:52:29.760] Santa Fe. I was coming back and
[03:52:31.600] Interstate 25. And he said uh he he
[03:52:35.920] pointed to um Sandia Crest, which is a
[03:52:39.840] big mountain there. I don't know if
[03:52:40.880] you've been to Albuquerque, but and he
[03:52:43.040] said, "There's a uh tram that goes up
[03:52:45.520] there, right?" I said, "Yeah, yeah,
[03:52:46.880] there's there's a tram, important tram."
[03:52:49.840] He said, "Can you take me up there?" I
[03:52:52.319] said, "Sure." So, as we turn to go up
[03:52:54.479] that road, we see the tram going up. And
[03:52:57.359] above the tram was this object following
[03:53:00.239] the tram up
[03:53:04.479] up to the top of the mountain. Okay. in
[03:53:08.560] um
[03:53:10.160] about 1965.
[03:53:14.000] Uh I wrestled in high school and um I
[03:53:19.040] was at a we were wrestling our uh our
[03:53:26.560] rival school and and the and the
[03:53:29.359] wrestling programs for the school
[03:53:32.399] was really a rival. You know, one match
[03:53:35.279] we'd beat then they'd b beat us and as
[03:53:38.560] you if you know about wrestling, you
[03:53:40.479] start at lower weights and you work up
[03:53:42.479] and and I was at the 130 pound class and
[03:53:47.279] I was wrestling
[03:53:49.199] the uh he was a runner up the state
[03:53:54.239] the year earlier
[03:53:56.479] and we were tied at that point because
[03:53:59.920] we had other matches ahead and I
[03:54:02.399] wrestled this guy and I beat him for on
[03:54:05.040] one. I beat him at almost because three
[03:54:09.279] minute uh rounds. The third round I came
[03:54:12.640] within a second of pinning him. I get
[03:54:15.439] the uh predicament which is a point and
[03:54:18.479] I win by one point.
[03:54:21.199] Um
[03:54:23.199] in um let me see this was would have
[03:54:26.720] been in 201
[03:54:31.600] 15. No, no. 2014 I went to Laos. I was
[03:54:36.560] involved with this group that uh was
[03:54:39.680] still looking for PS in Laos. And I went
[03:54:42.479] to Laos with this group of people to go
[03:54:45.199] to a certain location to try to find
[03:54:48.800] evidence of whether these uh PS that
[03:54:53.359] were at this site was called Messi 85.
[03:54:57.600] was any remnants of it or or because the
[03:55:00.720] site had been excavated by the military
[03:55:02.800] before. So I went there with this group
[03:55:06.560] and we found some not remains but we s
[03:55:10.880] find some evidence of something that had
[03:55:12.880] occurred there. There's my three
[03:55:14.720] stories. Amazing. Thank you for sharing
[03:55:16.399] that. I'll let the audience decide.
[03:55:18.239] Maybe leave your comments below. One,
[03:55:20.080] two, or three. Which one is the lie? Um
[03:55:24.160] lastly, I just want to leave you with
[03:55:25.680] this.
[03:55:27.199] Richard Dodie,
[03:55:29.600] how do you want to be remembered?
[03:55:34.080] >> Oh, wow. Um,
[03:55:37.680] well, I want to remember
[03:55:41.040] as a u a person who did their duty
[03:55:45.840] during my government service. I was in a
[03:55:48.720] regular air force. I had distinguished
[03:55:51.120] duty in irregular air force. I went to
[03:55:53.600] intelligence
[03:55:55.120] uh for a number of years. I did my duty.
[03:55:57.840] I did what I was told to do, how I was
[03:55:59.920] told to do it, and when I was told to do
[03:56:02.000] it. Uh so I know there's a lot of
[03:56:05.520] animosity out there of what I did,
[03:56:08.000] especially during the Pub Benitis case,
[03:56:10.720] which we really didn't go into a lot of
[03:56:12.399] details on. There's a lot more to that
[03:56:14.479] story, but I want to remember as as as
[03:56:16.960] being a person who did their job, did
[03:56:19.439] their duties uh to their country and
[03:56:22.560] then afterwards I served also uh in
[03:56:26.399] trying to get this story out, disclosure
[03:56:29.359] out. That's why I'm here. That's why
[03:56:31.040] I've done over 200 episodes on Gaia.
[03:56:33.680] That's why I I I'm open to podcasters or
[03:56:36.640] I I made made videos or I have the Dodie
[03:56:38.800] Chronicles out there. I'm telling the
[03:56:40.560] story as much of it as I can without
[03:56:43.439] disclosing classified information or
[03:56:45.520] jeopardizing national security. That's
[03:56:47.279] why how I want to be remembered.
[03:56:51.920] >> Thank you so much for sharing all that.
[03:56:54.000] I really appreciate your time. I
[03:56:55.600] appreciate you coming out here and uh
[03:56:57.680] and visiting us and and uh sharing your
[03:57:00.160] stories uh with my audience. And uh I
[03:57:03.279] can't wait to see I can't wait to see
[03:57:05.359] how this is received. To be honest,
[03:57:07.439] there's a lot here. Uh, thank you for
[03:57:09.359] your time, Richard.
[03:57:10.239] >> You're very welcome, Chris.
[03:57:27.724] >> [music]