semivan podcast yt lCUvQb5rWeE

[00:00:00.080] for the well you know I'm part of two
[00:00:01.680] the stars you know with blink Tom Tom
[00:00:04.960] Delong's
[00:00:06.480] company so it's me and Tom and uh two
[00:00:09.679] other board guys and then so Tom and I
[00:00:11.920] are in constant contact over 10,000
[00:00:14.719] things so uh so that's the only thing I
[00:00:16.960] have going on uh so I'm totally retired
[00:00:19.199] otherwise
[00:00:20.320] >> right yeah like Tom yeah I'm kind of
[00:00:22.000] curious like he hasn't really been too
[00:00:23.359] public about the issue in like a few
[00:00:25.279] years seems like he's kind of going back
[00:00:27.039] to touring and stuff like but he's still
[00:00:29.359] like pretty engaged, I guess, behind the
[00:00:30.800] scenes.
[00:00:31.359] >> Oh, yeah. Very much so. He uh his
[00:00:33.440] problem is, you know, I think they're
[00:00:34.559] working on a new album right now. So,
[00:00:37.360] he's he's totally swamped. Uh but, you
[00:00:40.719] know, we
[00:00:41.760] >> he was Yeah, I mean, he he's been
[00:00:44.160] contacted by people too in the
[00:00:46.320] government and and and what have you.
[00:00:47.840] So, he uh he's very very much involved
[00:00:51.440] in it, but right now he's he just can't
[00:00:53.920] afford a lot of time on it. And so, I
[00:00:56.000] keep him posted. I let him know what's
[00:00:57.600] going on. And
[00:00:59.760] >> he seems to be happy. So
[00:01:02.800] >> there we go.
[00:01:04.720] >> Gonna start uh start now. So yeah,
[00:01:08.640] thanks thanks everyone for joining. Um
[00:01:11.439] yeah, so we are really lucky to be
[00:01:13.040] joined by Jim Seivand. He's been really
[00:01:15.040] important with this uh UFO disclosure
[00:01:17.119] movement for the last several decades um
[00:01:20.720] or for at least a decade. and he was in
[00:01:23.119] the CIA for two decades as a senior
[00:01:26.320] counter intelligence officer or a senior
[00:01:29.200] uh member of the senior intelligence
[00:01:30.560] services. We'll get into some more
[00:01:32.880] details. I really want to dig into what
[00:01:34.720] the specifics of what you're doing in a
[00:01:36.560] bit, but um he's been involved at least
[00:01:38.960] since even before the New York Times
[00:01:40.720] article and before all this um you know
[00:01:44.000] all these reports were coming out in the
[00:01:46.000] media. Um so he's been involved even
[00:01:48.399] like before it became a mainstream
[00:01:50.240] congressional topic. and he also has a
[00:01:52.880] very special background knowing a lot
[00:01:54.560] about how um intelligence services work
[00:01:57.520] and um yeah so yeah he has a lot of
[00:02:00.799] knowledge and has uh been featured in uh
[00:02:04.000] many recent interviews including like
[00:02:05.840] Age of Disclosure the you know the movie
[00:02:08.479] that just came out um so yeah we'll um
[00:02:14.319] we'll get started uh yeah thank thanks
[00:02:17.200] for joining us Jim
[00:02:18.319] >> Oh sure thank you for having me I
[00:02:19.760] appreciate it
[00:02:20.800] >> yeah So I'll kind of be leading the
[00:02:22.400] discussion guys. So but please feel free
[00:02:24.879] to uh type something in the chat. I just
[00:02:27.760] don't want it to get too crowded with
[00:02:29.599] people. So uh just raise your hand and
[00:02:32.080] I'll get to anyone who's interested to
[00:02:34.480] you know ask a question. And uh great.
[00:02:37.760] So the first question I had can you
[00:02:41.200] describe like your role? You were in the
[00:02:43.040] clandestine service in the CIA as a a
[00:02:45.680] senior official for over 25 years. Um
[00:02:48.560] what would your daily job look like? Um,
[00:02:51.120] and I'm not going to ask for any
[00:02:52.560] classified info or anything.
[00:02:54.480] >> Yeah.
[00:02:54.959] >> Either of us want to get whacked, but at
[00:02:56.720] a high level, maybe can you describe
[00:02:58.239] what you did at the CIA for 25 years?
[00:03:00.879] >> Uh, you know, it u Well, in the
[00:03:03.519] clandestine service, I I
[00:03:06.677] [clears throat] 99% of what you do is I
[00:03:08.959] mean, it's classified. So, but uh you
[00:03:11.120] know, essentially it was recruiting
[00:03:12.560] spies. I mean, this is what your job is.
[00:03:14.959] use, we call it spotting, assessing,
[00:03:17.680] developing, recruiting, and then
[00:03:19.440] handling spies. And you can do that
[00:03:21.840] anywhere. You can do that in the United
[00:03:23.040] States. You can do that overseas as long
[00:03:25.120] as it's foreign, right? And um so I did
[00:03:27.760] that. I also ran um
[00:03:31.440] uh programs uh classified programs,
[00:03:35.680] uh dealing with the gathering foreign
[00:03:38.319] intelligence. That was a lot of fun. I I
[00:03:40.959] worked in the US uh for maybe gosh 10 15
[00:03:46.000] years working with the private sector,
[00:03:48.799] academia,
[00:03:50.480] uh [laughter]
[00:03:51.920] things along those lines where they
[00:03:53.920] would help us uh and it was totally
[00:03:56.319] voluntary on their part and and also
[00:03:59.439] very highly classified. So if somebody
[00:04:01.360] wanted to work or if we asked somebody
[00:04:03.519] would you mind helping us get something
[00:04:05.519] or do something uh they would do that
[00:04:08.000] and we would make the promise that they
[00:04:09.519] would never uh never be exposed ever and
[00:04:13.840] uh we haven't lost anybody since 1947.
[00:04:16.880] So
[00:04:19.440] >> pretty impressive. So uh
[00:04:20.880] >> yeah and I when when I became got into
[00:04:23.040] the senior service at least the last two
[00:04:25.120] years my cover was retracted. Uh I was
[00:04:28.560] undercover the whole time and and my
[00:04:30.240] cover I worked in aliases, commercial
[00:04:32.479] aliases, things along those lines. But
[00:04:34.400] my cover was retracted because I you
[00:04:36.800] know I had to go and I had to talk to
[00:04:40.160] various government agencies and I was
[00:04:42.160] responsible you know for overseeing uh a
[00:04:46.000] lot of different operations that were
[00:04:47.759] going on um both abroad and in the US
[00:04:51.680] and that involved other government
[00:04:53.280] agencies. So it made no sense to to
[00:04:55.600] remain undercover for me. So they they
[00:04:57.520] it took about 6 months and they were
[00:04:59.199] able to uh retract it and so I became
[00:05:03.120] quote unquote overt and uh I retired
[00:05:06.000] overt too. So um that's why I can talk
[00:05:09.120] about it.
[00:05:10.400] >> I see. And would that uh like so
[00:05:12.960] recruiting spies and that whole process
[00:05:15.120] like would that involve um specific like
[00:05:17.680] operational requests of the people or
[00:05:19.600] would that kind of involve just general
[00:05:21.919] research and knowledge help? because you
[00:05:24.000] said you like also had people in
[00:05:25.680] academia for example or people in
[00:05:28.000] industry. Um is it kind of to specific
[00:05:31.759] operational t I'm sure it's like the
[00:05:33.120] whole gambit but um
[00:05:34.720] >> yeah it it's the whole gambit really.
[00:05:36.320] Let's say for instance that we we find
[00:05:38.560] out that uh you know a foreign adversary
[00:05:42.639] uh has a new technology and we think
[00:05:44.720] that technology could affect our
[00:05:46.320] national security interest uh and if we
[00:05:48.880] don't know anything about it one of the
[00:05:50.240] things I used to do I used to go to
[00:05:51.919] academia not knocking a couple doors and
[00:05:55.360] you know you would always go to the
[00:05:56.560] president or you would go to um you know
[00:05:58.560] the chairman of the department and say
[00:05:59.840] hey look you know this is what we heard
[00:06:02.639] you know anything about it and if they
[00:06:04.240] said yeah actually you know we we have
[00:06:06.800] and then we would say what do you know
[00:06:08.160] and they would either say well I don't
[00:06:09.680] not comfortable doing that we would say
[00:06:11.039] okay fine then I would go and try to
[00:06:13.440] find another way to to access that
[00:06:15.680] information the goal was never to be
[00:06:18.000] surprised the CIA was created in 1947
[00:06:21.919] based on the experience experience we
[00:06:23.440] had in 1940 uh45 with Pearl Harbor. And
[00:06:27.280] the goal of the agency was a you know
[00:06:30.720] prevent surprise [clears throat] number
[00:06:33.039] one and number two be the first line of
[00:06:35.919] defense uh for the country. Uh we were
[00:06:40.000] kept it's a small organization. It's not
[00:06:41.919] very large and but uh our our our
[00:06:45.520] guidelines and our regulations uh make
[00:06:48.160] us very
[00:06:50.160] adaptable to situations. Uh for
[00:06:52.560] instance, Afghanistan was an area where
[00:06:56.319] we were already in there uh you know at
[00:06:58.720] 9 911 and uh it took us maybe 3 days to
[00:07:04.160] mount uh the first incursion into
[00:07:08.319] Afghanistan uh by US uh intelligence
[00:07:12.319] operatives and uh certain parts of the
[00:07:14.720] military, special forces. And so we were
[00:07:17.680] there way before the military was able
[00:07:19.520] to get there. And that's generally what
[00:07:21.120] we do. And all of us, you know, are on
[00:07:23.759] duty 24/7. So, and you you basically
[00:07:27.199] when you sign up, you you sign up uh
[00:07:29.759] wherever they need you, you go. And uh
[00:07:32.400] and and uh so it's it's not an easy easy
[00:07:36.479] place to be. It's not an easy place to
[00:07:38.560] work. It's hard on marriages. It's hard
[00:07:40.639] on relationships. It's [sighs]
[00:07:43.120] you know, it's very stressful.
[00:07:46.160] Um, so yeah, 25 years I was I was a
[00:07:51.039] little crispy, you know, a little burned
[00:07:52.880] out. So
[00:07:55.360] yeah, that makes makes a lot of sense.
[00:07:56.879] So yeah, it's interesting that you
[00:07:58.400] mentioned like getting uh so for examp
[00:08:01.280] like a prominent uh example of foreign
[00:08:03.919] technology that the CIA was interested
[00:08:05.840] in maybe like that's on the
[00:08:08.720] non-conventional side is like the CIA's
[00:08:10.800] like remote viewing program. So decades
[00:08:13.520] just for the audience like there were a
[00:08:15.280] lot of like the Stanford Research
[00:08:17.520] Institute and the CIA worked together
[00:08:21.520] with various defense department agencies
[00:08:23.680] to study like anomalous psychic
[00:08:26.000] phenomena. Um, so and and maybe just I'm
[00:08:30.639] more curious about like the
[00:08:31.520] administrative structure and like the
[00:08:32.800] bureaucratic structure like is there an
[00:08:35.120] exotic topics research division that um
[00:08:38.000] within the CIA like you know maybe like
[00:08:40.240] they're almost like academic people that
[00:08:42.159] just write reports and um and how or is
[00:08:47.120] that something that exists and maybe not
[00:08:50.640] just exotic stuff but just for various
[00:08:53.200] kinds of knowledge gathering? Yeah. Uh I
[00:08:56.720] don't know of any one particular place
[00:08:58.560] that it exists that deals with just
[00:09:00.880] exotic technologies. I mean what you
[00:09:02.800] have is um uh the the agency sort of
[00:09:06.959] broken down. It looks like academia to
[00:09:08.480] be honest with you. I mean as you have
[00:09:09.760] like at the place that deals with
[00:09:11.279] biology and and you know and life you
[00:09:13.279] know life sciences, biosciences, you
[00:09:14.959] have another one deals primarily in uh
[00:09:17.920] you know things that maybe physicists
[00:09:19.920] would deal with. Um you have you know
[00:09:23.279] areas that deal with foreign military,
[00:09:27.120] foreign political, foreign economic
[00:09:30.080] uh uh areas where you you know and all
[00:09:32.640] the different u categories of that and
[00:09:36.080] uh but as far as exotic goes, I mean
[00:09:38.560] what was interesting well the remote
[00:09:40.240] viewing program is actually interesting
[00:09:43.040] because it's it it all began uh really
[00:09:47.040] uh back uh gosh in you know probably
[00:09:50.880] when the agency was first formed in 47
[00:09:54.720] uh they became aware uh and actually
[00:09:57.360] before that the US army believe it or
[00:09:59.920] not became aware of the uh Soviet
[00:10:02.160] Union's interest in uh uh psychic
[00:10:06.080] phenomena you know uh and there's like I
[00:10:08.800] don't know 26 or seven types of it you
[00:10:11.120] know that that go from remote
[00:10:13.087] [clears throat] viewing system to latest
[00:10:14.160] but precognition psychokinesis
[00:10:17.600] clairvoyance divination you can down the
[00:10:20.320] list. Uh so we were aware that they were
[00:10:22.959] they were looking into that very very
[00:10:24.880] seriously and uh so back in and so we we
[00:10:29.760] always had somebody looking at that but
[00:10:31.519] never anything that's really
[00:10:32.880] concentrated and it wasn't until
[00:10:36.320] 1970
[00:10:38.079] around 1970
[00:10:40.160] when we had heard the Soviets were
[00:10:42.399] looking at something akin to remote
[00:10:45.200] viewing that we decided we wanted to
[00:10:47.040] look at that more closely. So, uh, the
[00:10:50.079] guy who ran the program at the CIA, he's
[00:10:51.680] very good friend of mine. Um, and he got
[00:10:54.320] a hold of, uh, Hal Putoff at Stanford
[00:10:56.640] Research Institute. Hal was a plasma
[00:10:58.640] physicist out of Stanford. Brilliant
[00:11:01.440] guy. And, uh, now he's very big into
[00:11:03.680] this, uh, UAP and anomalous phenomena.
[00:11:06.800] And Hal uh, uh, started working with the
[00:11:10.079] CIA uh, God for 20 years. It was a a
[00:11:14.079] program and it got cancelled in 1997
[00:11:19.360] I believe.
[00:11:20.560] >> Uh and it didn't get cancelled because
[00:11:22.720] it wasn't successful. It got cancelled
[00:11:25.360] because nobody could explain it. And and
[00:11:28.399] even though it was we had significant uh
[00:11:32.640] intelligence coming from it, we couldn't
[00:11:34.800] use it in an intelligence assessment
[00:11:37.440] because where do you say the information
[00:11:39.360] came from? was somebody went out on
[00:11:40.959] their psychic cord, you know, their, you
[00:11:43.279] know, and uh and they, you know, remote
[00:11:46.240] viewed something. I mean, we didn't know
[00:11:47.760] the physics behind that at all. And, uh,
[00:11:50.880] so it wasn't something that we could go
[00:11:52.959] to the president with and say, um, you
[00:11:54.959] need to make a policy decision based on
[00:11:56.720] this information that we have. The
[00:11:58.959] president would never do that. No policy
[00:12:00.720] maker would. So it was like well okay I
[00:12:03.760] think what happened was you know it
[00:12:06.079] continued it just in another venue and I
[00:12:08.880] don't think with CIA anymore it probably
[00:12:10.560] went to uh the military uh some aspect
[00:12:14.480] of the military where they were
[00:12:15.680] conducting I can't imagine them the
[00:12:17.760] government ever abandoning that because
[00:12:20.079] it's fascinating stuff.
[00:12:23.680] So, um, and I guess maybe looking
[00:12:26.399] forward to the UAP issue and
[00:12:28.399] compartmentalization, like do you think
[00:12:30.160] it's likely that there are, so like the
[00:12:32.720] CIA officially, um, stopped their remote
[00:12:35.360] viewing program? Do you think there's a
[00:12:36.800] possibility that either the CIA or some
[00:12:38.959] other organization
[00:12:40.720] um, within the DoD is still actively
[00:12:44.160] researching that issue? Yeah. I mean, I
[00:12:46.079] I don't know for sure, but I I Yes. But
[00:12:49.120] I I I Yeah, I I'm confident that that's
[00:12:53.360] that that's the case. The thing is when
[00:12:55.839] when you when when you run across
[00:12:57.519] something and UAP is is is a really good
[00:13:00.399] example and you know from the very very
[00:13:02.800] beginning that uh that it's real uh but
[00:13:06.399] you don't know what it is. Um you you
[00:13:09.040] you can't afford to ignore it. You just
[00:13:12.399] can't. uh particularly if you're an
[00:13:14.720] intelligence service uh who basically uh
[00:13:18.240] in its charter basically says we have to
[00:13:21.760] a look at this if it it's a possible
[00:13:24.160] threat even if it's one in 10,000
[00:13:27.200] threat is you know one in 10,000 chance
[00:13:29.040] scenario we still have to look at it and
[00:13:31.519] and then we have to coordinate with
[00:13:33.680] other intelligence agencies the military
[00:13:36.320] the law enforcement because that's our
[00:13:38.639] job that's our role and CIA has that
[00:13:40.800] role had that role since its beginning
[00:13:42.959] 47 and continues to do that to this very
[00:13:45.279] day.
[00:13:47.360] >> Right. Um and I guess just going keep
[00:13:50.800] keeping on this topic. So you had a
[00:13:52.880] personal encounter uh that I I believe
[00:13:56.480] uh we can dig into like the details of
[00:13:58.000] it later on, but um that uh part of your
[00:14:01.279] story is that you had some personal
[00:14:02.959] encounter with uh something related to
[00:14:04.880] UAP and that you mentioned it to your
[00:14:07.600] colleagues at the CIA and that they were
[00:14:09.360] like able to provide you very specific
[00:14:11.839] information regarding like did this
[00:14:14.160] thing happen? Did you check for this and
[00:14:16.000] that? Um could so it seemed like your
[00:14:18.880] colleagues were like somewhat
[00:14:19.760] knowledgeable about this phenomenon. Um,
[00:14:22.644] [snorts]
[00:14:22.800] >> yeah, they well the people the the the
[00:14:26.880] encounter I prefer to call it an
[00:14:30.000] incident or or maybe an encounter I
[00:14:32.639] guess. I have no idea what it is. I I
[00:14:35.040] mean I I don't I don't refer to it as
[00:14:36.959] and people have referred to it as my
[00:14:38.399] abduction experience. I don't I don't
[00:14:40.560] know. I think it's really dangerous to
[00:14:43.760] uh assign a label to these things
[00:14:46.399] because we don't know what what that
[00:14:48.160] actually is. All I know it was it was
[00:14:51.440] extraordinarily real experience to me
[00:14:55.680] uh with physical ramifications for both
[00:14:58.320] myself and my wife um when we quote
[00:15:01.519] unquote woke up.
[00:15:03.920] But if you if you ask me, you know, I
[00:15:06.480] mean, I I I I can't explain it. I have
[00:15:08.959] no clue. Uh it it resembles
[00:15:12.240] uh other experiences contactes have had.
[00:15:15.839] Uh but it is also what UFO researchers
[00:15:20.720] have called high strangeness.
[00:15:23.279] The complexity of it, the absurdity of
[00:15:25.839] it, uh is is almost beyond the pale.
[00:15:30.480] There there's no place to put it. I
[00:15:32.480] mean, where do you go with it? Uh people
[00:15:34.160] that have these experiences, they can't
[00:15:36.720] go like, you know, to the FBI or the
[00:15:39.360] local law enforcement and say, "I had
[00:15:41.199] this incredible experience." I don't
[00:15:43.279] know. I don't know what what do I do? I
[00:15:45.839] mean, who who do I talk to? They have no
[00:15:48.399] idea. We don't have a, you know, a
[00:15:51.680] department of ufology that exists in any
[00:15:54.240] place in the government. Now, we have
[00:15:55.839] classified programs that deal with this.
[00:15:59.839] But for most people, that's not you're
[00:16:01.600] not it's not accessible. And even even
[00:16:04.240] when I was uh when this happened to me,
[00:16:06.720] uh I mean, I I had no idea I you know,
[00:16:10.240] where to go. I mean CIA as far as I knew
[00:16:13.199] didn't have anything to do with this at
[00:16:15.040] all and and I didn't know about it
[00:16:16.720] because in any intelligence organization
[00:16:19.600] any good intelligence organization you
[00:16:21.759] you would work in has something called
[00:16:24.560] need to know. So if you work for CIA and
[00:16:27.920] your job is say uh Russian military you
[00:16:31.199] know looking at the Russian military
[00:16:32.880] you're not going to get access to
[00:16:34.320] Chinese [clears throat] submarine
[00:16:36.320] developments. I mean that that data
[00:16:38.240] you're just not. And if you try to get
[00:16:40.480] access to that, you're going to have
[00:16:42.079] security knocking on your door and
[00:16:43.600] counter intelligence saying why you have
[00:16:45.519] an interest in that. So when you go to
[00:16:47.920] if you walked into the halls of the
[00:16:49.440] agency, occasionally you might see a
[00:16:52.160] little name tag that says, "Oh, this is
[00:16:54.560] um you know uh the European division or
[00:16:56.880] the Russia division, but you don't walk
[00:16:59.759] in I mean to the doors all the time."
[00:17:02.480] Sometimes the doors are closed and if
[00:17:04.160] you do go in, you meet usually with a um
[00:17:06.959] a front office executive assistant who
[00:17:09.120] said, "What's your business? What do you
[00:17:10.720] want to know? Who do you want to meet?"
[00:17:12.400] And if you don't have a good reason to
[00:17:13.919] be there, they escort you out. So, it's
[00:17:16.799] all need to know and and and it should
[00:17:18.720] be that way, too. I mean, it's uh you're
[00:17:20.880] there to protect secrets. So, the system
[00:17:24.480] you work on, the computer system you
[00:17:26.160] work on on too, I mean, it's it's highly
[00:17:28.319] monitored. So, I mean, if if you try to
[00:17:32.559] do things there, they're going to get
[00:17:34.799] you. They're going to catch you, and
[00:17:35.919] they're going to they're going to
[00:17:36.640] interview. You're going to want to know
[00:17:37.679] why, you know, why you're interested.
[00:17:39.520] And you may have a legitimate reason,
[00:17:41.120] too. But if you do, you you go to your
[00:17:43.520] superior and say, "I really will not get
[00:17:45.840] information on that because it's going
[00:17:47.120] to affect the work I'm doing." And they
[00:17:48.880] have no problem granting that once once
[00:17:51.039] they hear what you need. So,
[00:17:53.840] >> so I guess when you were like talking to
[00:17:55.520] your uh colleagues about this, it wasn't
[00:17:57.679] in like a formal capacity. It was more
[00:17:59.280] like you were telling a buddy something
[00:18:01.760] happened to you and then they just
[00:18:03.440] happened to know a lot about the
[00:18:06.080] phenomenon.
[00:18:07.440] >> Yeah, this happened 20ome years after
[00:18:09.679] the incident itself and they weren't
[00:18:12.160] neither were CIA. uh I was working as a
[00:18:15.840] uh by that time as a consultant an
[00:18:18.160] independent consultant to the agency on
[00:18:21.280] a completely different subject uh area
[00:18:25.360] you know and when they found out in 2014
[00:18:29.120] the person who found out about it was
[00:18:30.720] John Alexander I don't know if you're
[00:18:32.640] familiar with John
[00:18:34.559] uh but I had ran ran run into him at a
[00:18:38.720] at an energy conference uh up in New
[00:18:41.120] York and uh we got to talk and I noticed
[00:18:44.559] uh who he was because I I have his book
[00:18:46.480] and uh so we chatted and I told him
[00:18:48.320] about our experience and he put me in
[00:18:50.000] touch with [clears throat] some people.
[00:18:51.919] And then that that changed everything
[00:18:55.440] because then I started getting people
[00:18:57.280] coming to my house
[00:18:59.440] and um calling me up and
[00:19:02.480] giving me classified briefings on
[00:19:06.080] on um not so much on UAP
[00:19:10.000] but on uh the topic of the phenomenon
[00:19:14.080] itself,
[00:19:16.160] where it exists,
[00:19:18.799] uh how it manifests itself and believe
[00:19:21.600] me, they don't know much. But what they
[00:19:23.520] do know is is it was startling to me
[00:19:25.600] because I had been studying this for 40
[00:19:28.000] plus years. And as I explained to
[00:19:30.240] somebody recently,
[00:19:32.640] it's one thing to read a book about it,
[00:19:35.200] maybe talk to somebody about it, but
[00:19:37.280] when somebody sits you down and said,
[00:19:39.280] "Well, I just conducted, you know, x
[00:19:41.280] amount of years at a national lab on
[00:19:43.520] this particular issue, and here's here's
[00:19:45.840] what we found." and you realize that the
[00:19:49.039] information, the data is true, it's
[00:19:52.799] real. Uh, the veil just sort of falls
[00:19:55.840] off [snorts] and they go, "Uhoh, I'm
[00:19:58.080] looking at another another
[00:20:00.080] interpretation of reality here that I
[00:20:02.640] never really considered before." That's
[00:20:05.440] the startling piece. Not so much knowing
[00:20:08.960] that, you know, an element of sigh or
[00:20:12.080] the phenomenon is real. It's it's
[00:20:15.280] exposing it that yeah I mean serious
[00:20:18.000] people scientists and these people were
[00:20:20.080] both scientists actually three of them
[00:20:21.679] they were all scientists very well-known
[00:20:23.760] scientists and um no they said yeah it's
[00:20:28.000] all real I was I was actually stunned I
[00:20:31.280] mean and I and I it took me a while you
[00:20:35.679] know to uh sort of come to terms with it
[00:20:38.240] look you know I'm I'm from Ohio right
[00:20:40.159] northeastern Ohio was a paper boy a good
[00:20:42.400] Catholic boy growing up uh you know I I
[00:20:45.919] had a normal middle class lower middle
[00:20:48.240] class existence. I you know I went to
[00:20:50.880] you know public schools. I didn't, you
[00:20:54.240] know, I I I wasn't attuned to any of
[00:20:56.480] this stuff and uh until I got into
[00:20:59.360] college and then I majored in
[00:21:02.199] [clears throat] uh English lit uh with a
[00:21:04.320] concentration on romanticism and
[00:21:05.919] romanticism sort of put you if you get
[00:21:08.559] into it more deeper, you get into
[00:21:10.080] mysticism and you get into some other
[00:21:11.600] elements and that gives you a flavor of
[00:21:14.240] it. That's when I became very interested
[00:21:15.919] but uh in all of this and so and I
[00:21:18.799] pursued it. I also had an older brother
[00:21:20.559] that was interested in uh uh western
[00:21:23.600] mysticism and um particularly as it
[00:21:26.640] applied to religion and uh you know the
[00:21:30.480] lives of the saints, things along those
[00:21:32.159] lines. I'm I'm I'm sorry. I'm I I get
[00:21:35.600] very discursive as I talk about this and
[00:21:37.600] I apologize for that. But
[00:21:39.840] >> rein me back in Siri, if I if you have
[00:21:41.840] to. So
[00:21:42.799] >> no, I mean it's a you know topic kind of
[00:21:45.120] goes all over the place. Um
[00:21:46.559] >> it does. Yeah. Also everyone in the chat
[00:21:48.640] in case you came later uh feel free to
[00:21:51.520] like uh put some questions in the chat
[00:21:53.440] or raise your hand and u you know you
[00:21:55.679] know we can I have a bunch of questions
[00:21:57.360] to get to but um you know it's also feel
[00:22:00.400] free to like ask questions. So uh I
[00:22:03.600] guess you going back to so 2014 was when
[00:22:07.840] you met these scientists that uh that
[00:22:10.320] were like pretty informed that I guess
[00:22:11.840] we're working with national labs.
[00:22:13.679] >> Yeah. around the time when uh to the
[00:22:16.880] stars was formed. So maybe for the
[00:22:20.240] audience and to the stars is like a kind
[00:22:22.640] of an entertainment and also UAP
[00:22:24.640] research organization that was kind of
[00:22:27.120] one of the pioneers that before you know
[00:22:29.600] the whole New York Times article and
[00:22:31.280] before it became like a national news
[00:22:33.760] story. Um so and it was started by Tom
[00:22:38.000] Dong who was the Blink 182's guitarist
[00:22:41.360] just a punk band. Um, but yeah, he he
[00:22:44.080] was doing like a lot of really good work
[00:22:45.520] talking with John Podesta, who was Bill
[00:22:47.520] Clinton's chief of staff and who was
[00:22:49.360] also Hillary Clinton's campaign manager
[00:22:51.120] at the time. Um, so yeah, a very that's
[00:22:54.240] a whole rabbit hole, but I guess how did
[00:22:56.159] you get started with to the stars and
[00:22:58.720] how did you meet Tom Dong? How did that
[00:23:00.960] whole saga start? Was it kind of
[00:23:02.559] prompted by this meeting with the
[00:23:04.880] scientists?
[00:23:06.080] >> Yeah. Well, afterwards after I had
[00:23:07.840] spoken to these these people, uh
[00:23:09.925] [clears throat] I uh they wanted they
[00:23:13.760] started uh they had a they had a study
[00:23:16.320] going on and uh the study was dealing
[00:23:21.280] with at the time about a hundred
[00:23:24.640] current and former senior level
[00:23:26.960] government officials who had runins with
[00:23:31.360] UAP or the phenomenon and that were
[00:23:35.200] damaged andor physically and or psych
[00:23:38.640] psych psychologically
[00:23:41.600] uh injured let's say uh by the
[00:23:43.679] phenomenon and the scientists that I met
[00:23:47.440] were working on this they were
[00:23:48.799] interested in getting [clears throat]
[00:23:52.159] samples data samples blood uh DNA you
[00:23:57.919] name it whatever they did it took all my
[00:23:59.919] medical files and and they're still
[00:24:02.960] conducting the research and the amount
[00:24:04.640] of people involved involved in this has
[00:24:06.880] gone up. Um, and they're they're they're
[00:24:09.919] still doing that, but it's it's not
[00:24:11.919] classified per se, but it's it's
[00:24:13.919] sensitive. So, and it's HIPPA
[00:24:15.760] restricted. So, um, you know, I don't
[00:24:18.000] talk about it too much, but uh,
[00:24:21.279] sufficees to say that, you know, they're
[00:24:23.200] they're very concerned. I mean, we had
[00:24:24.799] lost
[00:24:26.880] 16 people uh, uh, through suicide uh,
[00:24:31.120] based on the encounters they had. And uh
[00:24:34.080] I did see a hipparestricted my wife's a
[00:24:36.320] clinical psychologist so they felt it
[00:24:39.279] was okay to show my wife and I the um
[00:24:42.240] hipparrestricted presentation that they
[00:24:44.320] have done for the government on on what
[00:24:46.400] had happened to some of these people who
[00:24:48.080] ran into UAP and it's not pleasant
[00:24:51.919] and um most of the times situations
[00:24:54.880] resolve themselves sometimes they do not
[00:24:57.679] and sometimes the psychic damage or the
[00:25:00.720] psychological damage you know can be
[00:25:03.120] very intense which is why I sort of
[00:25:04.960] warned people you know and particularly
[00:25:06.799] people
[00:25:08.320] I mean what actually one of the reasons
[00:25:10.559] why I agreed to speak with you is is
[00:25:12.559] over this this particular topic I feel
[00:25:14.960] very very strongly about it that you
[00:25:17.919] know at your age and I don't mean to be
[00:25:20.080] agist here but um you know uh trying to
[00:25:23.760] concentrate on this as and getting
[00:25:26.559] involved in where it becomes you know
[00:25:30.320] an inordinate taking us maybe an
[00:25:32.320] inordinate amount of your time. Um, I I
[00:25:34.640] don't recommend that. I And particularly
[00:25:36.320] if you're not grounded, um, it can get
[00:25:39.039] real it can get real funny and uh uh
[00:25:42.799] real quickly. And when you associate
[00:25:45.840] with this topic,
[00:25:48.320] uh, there's something called the
[00:25:49.360] hitchhiker effect.
[00:25:51.679] Uh, and it doesn't happen all the time,
[00:25:53.600] but maybe 10 to 20% of the cases where
[00:25:55.919] you open yourself up to this and
[00:25:58.720] whatever the hell this phenomenon is
[00:26:02.559] will
[00:26:04.080] will introduce itself in some form or
[00:26:06.640] fashion to you and and and these are
[00:26:09.360] what you know I don't know whether Freud
[00:26:11.279] called them synchronicities or is it
[00:26:12.960] yung I can't remember which one but um
[00:26:15.360] maybe young and and um where you start
[00:26:17.840] noticing things you never noticed before
[00:26:19.840] and things start happening in a way that
[00:26:21.919] you think is pretty strange. So, I mean,
[00:26:23.760] if you want to do that, fine. But I
[00:26:25.360] don't recommend that at all. I think,
[00:26:26.720] you know, get your education, get out.
[00:26:28.640] You want to make this as a hobby, fine,
[00:26:30.159] but don't follow this uh necessarily uh
[00:26:34.559] full-time. So, I just lost my train of
[00:26:37.520] thought. Where the hell was I? Uh
[00:26:40.559] >> yeah. So, I guess like how did you meet?
[00:26:42.720] Um yeah, that thanks for the advice. It
[00:26:45.200] helps that there's like not many jobs in
[00:26:46.640] this area. So, that
[00:26:48.720] >> No, no, there are no jobs in this area.
[00:26:50.480] And I I can vouch for that. But no, but
[00:26:53.200] when I met Tom, you know, I had met Tom
[00:26:55.200] had written a book called Secret
[00:26:56.400] Machines uh uh with AJ Hartley, who's a
[00:26:59.840] Shakespeare scholar actually out of
[00:27:01.760] well, he just retired out a professor
[00:27:03.440] out of North Carolina uh and Chapel
[00:27:06.240] Hill. And um they wrote it and um it had
[00:27:09.600] some very interesting scenarios in it.
[00:27:12.720] People
[00:27:14.240] thought
[00:27:16.240] the some of these people involved in UAP
[00:27:18.960] thought
[00:27:20.720] Tom's advisors, this is before I knew
[00:27:22.880] him. He had some pretty serious
[00:27:24.240] adviserss as you mentioned earlier,
[00:27:26.720] might have told him things that maybe
[00:27:28.240] they shouldn't have told him. And so
[00:27:30.320] they had asked me unofficially, would
[00:27:32.000] you mind going out and chatting with
[00:27:33.200] him? And I did. Had a wonderful uh uh
[00:27:37.120] time with Tom. He
[00:27:39.520] uh completely dispelled any kind of uh
[00:27:42.960] any of my suspicions of where he got his
[00:27:45.360] information was. Tom was um incredibly
[00:27:50.320] uh uh uh well informed on this topic and
[00:27:54.480] he was able to put these disperate
[00:27:58.559] pieces of information together and come
[00:28:00.480] up with this story uh that happened to
[00:28:04.080] be accurate. uh and uh in some cases,
[00:28:08.960] not all of them, but in some cases. And
[00:28:11.200] then when I got to talk to him, I was I
[00:28:13.360] was really uh surprised at how well read
[00:28:16.080] he was uh on the topic uh how interested
[00:28:19.440] he was in it. And um and his connections
[00:28:22.080] were
[00:28:23.840] superb. I mean, he I mean, he was
[00:28:26.240] hanging out with people from the you
[00:28:28.559] know, Loheed Martin skunk works. Uh I
[00:28:31.120] mean so he you know and and and plus
[00:28:33.919] other elements of the military at a very
[00:28:36.399] very high level. So so when I got to
[00:28:39.200] know him you know we um the next day uh
[00:28:43.520] we had lunch uh and then he said well
[00:28:47.520] why don't you he said I'm thinking of
[00:28:48.880] form at a company why don't you join and
[00:28:50.880] I wasn't really interested I said I was
[00:28:52.960] more interested in the research end of
[00:28:54.240] it. So he said let's do that. He said
[00:28:56.880] how would you structure it? So had a
[00:28:58.720] cocktail napkin. And it was me and Hal
[00:29:00.559] Putoff. Uh Jacques Valet was there. Um
[00:29:04.399] and somebody else who never wants to be
[00:29:06.320] named, so I won't name that person, but
[00:29:08.159] very well-known guy. And Jacques and
[00:29:11.679] this other guy begged off. But Hal and I
[00:29:13.440] said, "Fine, if you're able to do this,
[00:29:15.120] you know, have a research angle to it,
[00:29:16.880] we'll do it." And that's when we
[00:29:18.480] started. And it was going pretty good.
[00:29:19.919] We overestimated how much um
[00:29:23.520] how much uh uh people would be
[00:29:25.840] interested in it. We thought there'd be
[00:29:27.200] a great amount. And it turned out there
[00:29:28.559] wasn't all that much. We have three or 4
[00:29:30.640] thousand investors, but they're mostly
[00:29:32.480] small investors, you know, $150, $200
[00:29:35.840] kind of things. Wasn't nearly enough to
[00:29:38.159] keep uh everything going. And uh so and
[00:29:42.720] then COVID hit
[00:29:44.880] and so we had to sort of shut down
[00:29:47.279] temporarily the research arm that is
[00:29:49.360] going to be resurrected I hopefully
[00:29:51.120] soon. we found out and uh so we decided
[00:29:54.720] to become an entertainment company and
[00:29:56.240] it's which what we've been doing uh for
[00:29:58.640] the last gosh um
[00:30:03.279] I don't know three or four years now and
[00:30:05.360] uh we have a dozen projects in the
[00:30:07.120] works. We have a project with uh Brendan
[00:30:10.320] Frasier and Sarah Michelle Geller coming
[00:30:12.320] out I think in the fall called Breaking
[00:30:14.240] Bear. It's a cartoon thing, animated,
[00:30:16.320] nothing to do with UFOs. But we have
[00:30:18.480] about a h about a half a dozen 10 other
[00:30:22.480] projects in the works all about that.
[00:30:25.279] And they're in various stages of
[00:30:26.880] development. But if anybody knows
[00:30:29.679] anything about the the movies business,
[00:30:32.720] TV,
[00:30:34.640] what a hell hole. I mean, I don't
[00:30:35.919] recommend anybody ever get into that
[00:30:37.440] business. I mean things it takes years
[00:30:39.919] to get anything funding together, the
[00:30:42.640] actors, the scripts written and
[00:30:46.640] everything can conform like we had a an
[00:30:51.039] agreement with uh uh Legacy uh and not
[00:30:55.039] with I'm sorry with Legendary Pictures
[00:30:57.600] to do a television series based on
[00:31:00.159] Secret Machines and that you know we had
[00:31:02.159] that with two years and they
[00:31:03.496] [clears throat] developed a pilot they
[00:31:04.720] did everything and then they canceled it
[00:31:06.000] at the last minute and you know That's
[00:31:07.840] that was their deal. I mean, it was
[00:31:08.960] okay, perfectly fine. But now we're
[00:31:10.240] we're out and pitching it to Netflix and
[00:31:11.840] some of the other streaming services.
[00:31:13.600] So, we hope we'll we'll catch some fire
[00:31:17.120] here pretty soon. So, hope springs
[00:31:19.279] eternal. So, we'll see what happens. But
[00:31:20.880] then, you know, and then Tom and I just
[00:31:22.240] developed this relationship, you know,
[00:31:23.919] over, you know, this period of time for
[00:31:26.080] the last 10, 12 years now. And um um
[00:31:29.760] we're generally very close on this
[00:31:32.080] topic. So,
[00:31:33.679] >> right. And so I guess uh so one of the
[00:31:37.919] more high-profile people uh that Tom was
[00:31:40.640] in contact with was John Podesta who was
[00:31:43.679] like Bill Clinton's chief of staff and
[00:31:45.440] Hillary Clinton's campaign manager
[00:31:46.960] during her campaign.
[00:31:48.559] >> Yeah.
[00:31:49.279] >> So can you say anything about what kinds
[00:31:52.240] of meetings that Tom and um John Podesta
[00:31:54.880] had?
[00:31:56.399] No, I I can't because Tom Tom
[00:32:00.399] is um very very close-mouthed about all
[00:32:04.320] of that and I don't blame him. Uh he
[00:32:07.679] doesn't share
[00:32:10.240] uh he never shared with me and I we we
[00:32:12.399] talk about everything but and
[00:32:13.582] [clears throat] I don't bother him about
[00:32:14.559] it. You know, who his advisors were and
[00:32:16.399] what they were doing, not doing. He
[00:32:18.399] always kept that pretty close to his
[00:32:19.919] chest. I remember when
[00:32:22.320] when it was finally exposed, I had just
[00:32:24.480] met him and he had called me up and he
[00:32:26.000] was absolutely panicked about it. He
[00:32:29.120] said, "This is awful." You know, I mean,
[00:32:30.880] he said, "I I would never, you know, you
[00:32:33.120] know, ever expose anybody." And um and
[00:32:35.360] he never had any interest in any
[00:32:36.880] classified information on this or
[00:32:38.480] anything along those lines. He really
[00:32:40.159] played it straight. Uh so he was pretty
[00:32:42.960] surprised and shocked about that because
[00:32:44.799] he he always told people that he'd
[00:32:47.279] spoken with you know I will I won't
[00:32:48.960] share anything if you don't want me to
[00:32:51.039] and and he never did and uh as a matter
[00:32:54.399] of fact it was interesting when we first
[00:32:55.600] started to the stars and you know we had
[00:32:58.240] Chris Melon come in Lou Alzand we had
[00:33:00.720] Steve Justice from the skunk works hell
[00:33:03.919] put off these are all veterans of highly
[00:33:07.200] classified programs
[00:33:09.519] I mean Chris Melon was oversaw all the
[00:33:13.840] uh special access programs for the
[00:33:15.360] military for many years. And uh we were
[00:33:18.240] all looking at each other and uh you
[00:33:20.559] know trying to gauged how much each one
[00:33:23.039] of us knew about UAP and the phenomenon
[00:33:25.440] and and and
[00:33:27.840] it was a dance, let me put it that way.
[00:33:29.919] And and nobody broke down and shared
[00:33:31.919] anything because everybody knew what you
[00:33:35.200] did know. you know, just because, you
[00:33:37.760] know, we all have security clearances,
[00:33:39.200] it doesn't mean we're all entitled to
[00:33:40.720] know what each other's business was. So,
[00:33:44.240] everybody kept pretty closed about it uh
[00:33:46.960] about their own about their own
[00:33:49.840] involvement or their own knowledge base
[00:33:53.600] and that goes to this day. Uh uh so but
[00:33:57.200] we respect that uh among each other you
[00:33:59.600] know and uh I mean trust me I mean I
[00:34:02.159] tried to you know get a conversation
[00:34:05.039] steered in in a way and it was you know
[00:34:07.279] and you realize right up front these
[00:34:08.800] people are not comfortable doing that
[00:34:10.560] because they respect the oath they took
[00:34:12.560] and uh like I do you know what I mean
[00:34:14.399] you you just don't don't talk about
[00:34:16.079] things like that
[00:34:18.480] >> right but so so when when you were
[00:34:21.040] meeting with uh Podesta did you ever uh
[00:34:24.399] personally join those meetings with
[00:34:25.679] Podesta or was that
[00:34:27.679] >> No, no, I never I never met with Podesta
[00:34:29.599] or any of those guys. Uh Tom's original
[00:34:32.720] advisors, never never met them. Uh um I
[00:34:37.119] I knew it was Podesta. I knew Jim
[00:34:38.960] McCastel that came out. Uh and there was
[00:34:42.159] another one that came out uh General
[00:34:45.040] can't remember his last name. and then
[00:34:47.440] about six six others. Two I guessed two
[00:34:50.960] are very senior officials in the
[00:34:53.040] intelligence community. Uh and but Tom
[00:34:56.320] wouldn't confirm that, but I I know it
[00:34:58.400] and I know who they were. I found out
[00:35:00.400] through other means, but but I never
[00:35:01.920] confronted Tom with that. And um but no,
[00:35:04.560] I didn't know any of those guys. It
[00:35:06.079] wasn't until we formed our company and
[00:35:08.320] then we all got to know one another that
[00:35:10.560] everybody started meeting everybody
[00:35:12.160] else. So
[00:35:13.920] >> I see. So I guess on a couple of these
[00:35:17.200] folks that were involved, one of them,
[00:35:19.520] two of them that you mentioned are Chris
[00:35:21.359] Melon and Neil McCassland.
[00:35:23.440] >> Yeah.
[00:35:24.800] >> Yeah. So Neil McCasten has been in the
[00:35:27.119] news recently. He was uh just some
[00:35:29.760] background about him. He was like two
[00:35:31.520] star general lead scientists. He was
[00:35:34.480] like the leader of the Air Force
[00:35:35.839] research laboratory at Wright Matter Air
[00:35:37.760] Force Base. So just very um senior uh
[00:35:41.440] like one of the most senior scientific
[00:35:43.040] officials you can have in the military.
[00:35:44.640] And so Wright Patterson has long been
[00:35:46.880] suspected to be related to UAP crash
[00:35:48.960] retrieval programs. Um and reverse
[00:35:52.160] engineering etc. Um and Neil McCasslin
[00:35:55.760] has been missing for several months. So
[00:35:58.880] there's if you've heard of like the
[00:36:00.240] missing scientist stuff that's been
[00:36:02.240] going on in the news with a bunch of
[00:36:03.760] missing scientists. Uh Mathland was one
[00:36:07.440] of them. So um so I guess just uh you
[00:36:11.760] know to to what can you share anything
[00:36:14.720] about uh to what extent uh either you or
[00:36:18.240] Tom or anyone else in your organization
[00:36:20.240] like met with him or to what extent he
[00:36:22.800] was willing to share information or any
[00:36:26.480] anything along that lines? Well, I I
[00:36:29.760] know Tom and and Masslin had an
[00:36:32.400] interesting relationship, but Masslin
[00:36:33.920] never shared anything
[00:36:36.160] with Tom that was remotely classified. I
[00:36:38.240] think McCasslin was sort of functioning
[00:36:40.079] more as a guide, you know, for Tom. Tom
[00:36:42.560] wanted wanted to write these Secret
[00:36:43.680] Machines, you know, novels and and and
[00:36:46.160] he also wanted to we have a series of um
[00:36:50.560] non-fiction called Secret Machines also
[00:36:52.720] God Man and War. And what we really
[00:36:55.440] needed was a little direction, you know,
[00:36:57.359] and what he thought. And so he he would
[00:36:59.680] give Tom that direction. Tom wouldn't
[00:37:01.359] share that information with anybody. I
[00:37:03.119] mean, he he kept it to himself. And um
[00:37:05.920] which is fine. And uh and uh so his
[00:37:09.200] disappearance, you know, he's been
[00:37:11.280] retired. We we don't know much about his
[00:37:13.520] personal life. And I don't know,
[00:37:17.119] you know, supposedly, you know, he left
[00:37:18.800] the house, you know, without his phone,
[00:37:20.400] without his watch. he took a a gun with
[00:37:23.119] him. Um,
[00:37:26.079] you know, if he had, you know, mental
[00:37:28.160] health concerns, I I don't know, but
[00:37:30.880] that's a possibility. Um, I think
[00:37:33.520] anything beyond that is is really
[00:37:35.920] speculation. Uh, they haven't found
[00:37:38.480] them, so that's pretty unusual in the
[00:37:41.599] sense that they haven't found them. Uh,
[00:37:43.680] we've had I know they're remote viewers
[00:37:46.880] that have been out there looking for
[00:37:48.160] them. Uh, they haven't come up with
[00:37:49.760] anything. So, don't really know. They
[00:37:52.400] don't really know. And you know, there's
[00:37:53.760] a whole slew of
[00:37:56.800] scientists supposedly that have been
[00:37:58.240] died in the last 10 years, and
[00:37:59.760] everybody's trying to pull this together
[00:38:01.200] into a conspiracy. But but honestly, I
[00:38:04.240] mean, there are hundreds of thousands of
[00:38:06.960] scientists in the United States with top
[00:38:08.880] secret clearances and um that are
[00:38:11.920] associated with uh you know, uh either
[00:38:15.599] national laboratories or
[00:38:18.480] uh uh the military or the intelligence
[00:38:21.359] agencies and what have you. And you
[00:38:23.440] know, you know, if 30 scientists out of
[00:38:26.000] them, you know, die,
[00:38:28.246] [cough and clears throat]
[00:38:28.960] that's not a conspiracy. That's just
[00:38:31.119] normal. As far as I'm concerned, uh um
[00:38:33.599] you know, I think of the 30 they were
[00:38:35.920] talking about, I know at least, you
[00:38:37.839] know, seven or eight that died of
[00:38:39.839] natural causes or causes that they've
[00:38:42.800] had diseases and what have you that, you
[00:38:45.359] know, and they were old and all this
[00:38:46.800] kind of stuff. There was obviously some
[00:38:49.040] ones that are just absolutely
[00:38:51.040] incredible. The missing I can't remember
[00:38:54.320] her name, but she just disappeared off
[00:38:56.560] of a trail.
[00:38:58.400] >> How the hell does that happen? And I in
[00:39:00.720] that, you know, you know, I I don't
[00:39:02.079] know. I I I just don't know. But I I I
[00:39:04.800] don't I think it's way way too soon to
[00:39:07.200] be making any kind of judgments on um uh
[00:39:10.720] you know, what this all means in the
[00:39:12.400] end. Uh, you guys are probably too
[00:39:15.200] young, but about 20 years ago um there
[00:39:18.400] was also a case of missing
[00:39:21.359] microbiologists,
[00:39:23.200] cell biologists um that were working on
[00:39:25.680] things and um and they just kept dying
[00:39:29.200] and nobody could figure out what the
[00:39:30.720] hell the story was. But when somebody
[00:39:32.800] did the uh stats, looked at the
[00:39:35.200] demographics, they showed well actually
[00:39:37.119] this is sort of a semi-normal pattern.
[00:39:39.599] You know what I mean? You're going to
[00:39:40.480] find that many people doing that. But,
[00:39:42.560] you know, it's like statistics in
[00:39:44.079] general. You put them together, you can
[00:39:45.440] interpret it any damn way you want to
[00:39:46.880] interpret it. So, so I just caution
[00:39:49.680] people to be careful about that,
[00:39:51.680] >> right? And I guess part of the reason
[00:39:53.119] I'm asking is that it's like been in the
[00:39:54.800] news.
[00:39:55.680] >> Oh, yeah. Sure. Yeah.
[00:39:57.680] >> Sort of these not all conspiracy
[00:39:59.359] theories are wrong, but this is
[00:40:00.560] certainly a conspiracy theory. Um,
[00:40:02.800] >> well, you never know. I mean, you never
[00:40:04.079] know. I mean, I know the Trump
[00:40:05.280] administration's looking at it, but I
[00:40:07.599] don't know whether it'll go anywhere.
[00:40:09.119] >> Yeah. And I guess along these lines, it
[00:40:10.960] is also part of the folklore of this
[00:40:12.400] topic that um people that are exposed to
[00:40:15.440] these programs and whistleblowers are
[00:40:17.280] often faced with reprisals. Um have you
[00:40:19.440] been exposed to any like people that
[00:40:22.079] have been silenced or had reprisals in
[00:40:25.280] any way? Maybe not to this level of
[00:40:27.599] being disappeared, but like any any sort
[00:40:29.599] of that spectrum.
[00:40:31.920] >> Well, no. I mean, I I I think
[00:40:36.480] you know the program, what they call
[00:40:39.520] quote unquote the legacy program
[00:40:42.480] that they saw in the age of disclosure.
[00:40:44.560] I was shocked, by the way, when they
[00:40:45.920] showed that. I I I was just stunned that
[00:40:49.200] they actually
[00:40:50.960] would show that. Um that's something I
[00:40:53.839] can't I don't want to comment on. All
[00:40:55.839] right. But
[00:40:58.319] when you have a program
[00:41:02.240] like this,
[00:41:04.160] um, it is probably
[00:41:06.720] has the highest classification level you
[00:41:09.200] can probably get, which is a wavered,
[00:41:13.839] unacnowledged special access program.
[00:41:17.839] And those are very um,
[00:41:22.079] highly bigoted. They're restricted. uh
[00:41:25.920] and they have security protocols
[00:41:29.920] that border on the obscene uh as far as
[00:41:33.599] you know if you're working in one of
[00:41:35.119] those programs. I ran a few of those
[00:41:36.960] myself. Nothing to do with UAP or
[00:41:39.440] anything like that. And I've ran many
[00:41:41.520] many more SAPs and you know wavered SAPs
[00:41:46.560] uh special access programs in my career.
[00:41:48.560] So I mean I'm sort of used to this and
[00:41:51.200] um but they exist in their own little
[00:41:53.200] world and and um the security protocols
[00:41:56.640] sometimes are shared particularly if two
[00:41:58.720] government agencies two intelligence
[00:42:00.319] agencies or a military agency and
[00:42:02.000] intelligence agency are working on a
[00:42:03.440] particular topic the security protocols
[00:42:05.920] sometimes are shared um if the atomic
[00:42:08.480] energy commission is involved is like
[00:42:11.520] they intimated in age of disclosure
[00:42:15.920] uh the security protocol s with the
[00:42:20.079] Atomic Energy Commission are just I I
[00:42:23.359] mean incredible. I mean just really
[00:42:26.160] tight, very very tight. And uh so have
[00:42:31.599] people
[00:42:33.760] been harassed? Uh
[00:42:36.800] yeah, probably. And and have they been
[00:42:39.359] intimidated? Yeah, probably if the
[00:42:41.280] security protocols allow them to do
[00:42:43.200] that. Uh is it legal? [clears throat] It
[00:42:46.319] may be legal.
[00:42:49.680] Put it this way. It is definitely not
[00:42:51.200] ethical or moral in my opinion. And I'm
[00:42:54.240] just talking on a strictly
[00:42:56.800] uh hypothetical basis here. I mean,
[00:42:58.720] there might be illegality to that. um uh
[00:43:02.800] that uh these types of programs um you
[00:43:05.920] know have a a very severe
[00:43:09.040] uh protocol where if you get too close
[00:43:12.000] to spilling the beans or something like
[00:43:13.520] that, they can they can pretty much you
[00:43:16.240] know pick you up, take you in and you
[00:43:19.040] know read read the ride act to you. Uh
[00:43:22.560] but I don't know about anybody being
[00:43:24.160] killed uh uh I mean purposely killed.
[00:43:27.440] There may have been in the early days,
[00:43:28.960] it was the wild west back in the 40s and
[00:43:30.960] 50s, let me tell you. I mean, even in
[00:43:32.960] the 60s and it wasn't until 75 with the
[00:43:35.920] church committee that you really found
[00:43:37.440] any kind of
[00:43:39.599] uh [sighs]
[00:43:41.200] look at the intelligence services and
[00:43:44.079] what CIA was doing back in the day. My
[00:43:46.400] god, I mean, I look at that I'm I'm
[00:43:49.520] shocked by it because I mean, you know,
[00:43:51.119] when I worked there, I mean, I had
[00:43:52.480] lawyers, you know, right next to me. I
[00:43:55.440] mean, I couldn't do anything without
[00:43:56.560] talking to the lawyer first and, you
[00:43:57.839] know, and and and making sure that we
[00:43:59.440] weren't getting involved in anything
[00:44:00.880] that wasn't uh the least bit legal. Uh
[00:44:03.920] so, and and those filters are very very
[00:44:06.560] prominent now in the intelligence
[00:44:08.079] community. That said, when you
[00:44:10.180] [clears throat] get into these types of
[00:44:11.280] programs, particularly ones that are run
[00:44:12.880] by the executive branch,
[00:44:15.599] um
[00:44:17.680] that do not necessarily have a
[00:44:21.359] requirement
[00:44:22.960] to report to Congress. In other words,
[00:44:25.440] if the president decides he doesn't
[00:44:27.680] report report to Congress and he has an
[00:44:30.560] intelligence service working for him,
[00:44:32.160] say like CIA,
[00:44:34.480] anything he says with the CIA is
[00:44:36.160] privileged. Uh, and Congress isn't
[00:44:38.960] allowed to basically, you know, call him
[00:44:41.200] in on it and what have you. Congress
[00:44:43.280] can't even
[00:44:45.119] tell CIA, for instance, you know,
[00:44:48.160] there's the intelligence committee,
[00:44:49.359] Senate and the House. Well, if CIA goes
[00:44:51.760] there and said, "We're working on this
[00:44:53.119] program and and and both committees
[00:44:55.760] say,"We don't we don't approve of that,
[00:44:58.960] the CIA can choose to do it uh well,
[00:45:01.839] with the president's permission and
[00:45:03.280] National Security Council permission
[00:45:04.720] without Congress's approval." Now,
[00:45:06.720] Congress won't give them money for it,
[00:45:09.280] but if there's money in the executive
[00:45:11.680] branch, you know, um uh to fund those
[00:45:14.319] programs, they can be done. That really
[00:45:17.280] is
[00:45:19.680] a huge legal argument that's going right
[00:45:21.839] now between the Congress and the
[00:45:25.200] executive branch. And it's all about the
[00:45:27.760] uh executive unitary executive theory.
[00:45:30.000] Uh you might have heard of this where
[00:45:32.480] the president has the power, you know,
[00:45:34.800] to do things, implement laws without
[00:45:36.640] Congress or what have you. And uh
[00:45:38.960] Congress takes the exact opposite turn
[00:45:41.680] and says, "No, you know, the courts have
[00:45:44.240] not ruled on this." and people don't
[00:45:46.319] want to take it to the courts uh because
[00:45:48.640] they're afraid of what might happen. So
[00:45:51.200] there's always been an understanding
[00:45:52.800] between the president and Congress. I
[00:45:54.640] think and I think what dealing with UAP
[00:45:58.400] that
[00:46:00.000] um I think what the deal and I I don't
[00:46:03.280] know this for sure but I think what the
[00:46:04.640] deal has been is that the president will
[00:46:07.760] notify some members of the gang of eight
[00:46:11.200] maybe one or two and say
[00:46:14.880] we have we have this program going on
[00:46:18.319] and this is what it's about. but we
[00:46:20.880] can't tell you any of the big details
[00:46:23.440] and we don't want you asking nor do we
[00:46:25.599] want you discussing it and I think
[00:46:27.920] that's been going on for the past 80
[00:46:29.760] plus years. So I think there are people
[00:46:31.280] in Congress that do know about it but
[00:46:33.200] they're generally very very senior
[00:46:35.520] usually one or two in the gang of eight.
[00:46:38.079] Maybe it's the head of the Senate
[00:46:39.359] Intelligence Committee might know or or
[00:46:42.319] they're you know been briefed on it. the
[00:46:44.079] briefings that have been going on in
[00:46:45.119] Congress now are are low level in the
[00:46:47.040] sense that
[00:46:49.040] junior congressmen uh they may have
[00:46:51.200] security clearances up to secret but
[00:46:53.920] they're not they're not read into these
[00:46:56.079] programs. I mean, what they're being
[00:46:57.839] shown is is videos and they're being
[00:47:00.400] shown instances where UAP has shown
[00:47:03.760] itself and and if you've seen these
[00:47:06.960] videos, and I have many of them, they
[00:47:09.440] they're could be quite scary. Uh because
[00:47:12.319] what the hell is that? You know, you're
[00:47:13.839] looking at it and what what the hell is
[00:47:15.599] it? And and how does that work? Uh um
[00:47:18.960] and I think a lot of the congressmen
[00:47:20.800] were shocked. I think most of them were
[00:47:22.160] shocked by it. And that's why you have
[00:47:24.079] this push. But they're generally junior,
[00:47:27.440] right? You don't have very very many
[00:47:29.280] senior people in the Senate and Congress
[00:47:31.119] pushing this topic. There may be a
[00:47:33.040] reason for that. I don't know. But also
[00:47:35.680] I think one of the main reasons why this
[00:47:37.359] is not being pushed uh and I'm rambling
[00:47:40.240] a little bit here and I apologize but I
[00:47:41.760] think this is important to get out is
[00:47:43.920] that this phenomena UAP and the
[00:47:46.560] phenomena the attaching phenomena the
[00:47:48.319] woo stuff you know the abductions the
[00:47:50.560] contact stuff that stuff does not
[00:47:53.680] impinge on most people's lives. I mean,
[00:47:55.920] if I don't know how many people we're
[00:47:57.520] speaking to here, but if it's a dozen or
[00:47:59.920] so people, I mean, you can ask a dozen,
[00:48:02.800] maybe it's impinged on one or two of the
[00:48:04.560] people. Well, actually, it's UFO
[00:48:06.319] society, so maybe it's maybe more, maybe
[00:48:08.000] half. But if you go out writ large, you
[00:48:10.800] take a thousand people and you ask them
[00:48:12.480] how many, you know, how many of you have
[00:48:13.839] had a UFO experience, UAP appearance,
[00:48:16.880] you're lucky if you get 10, right? Uh so
[00:48:19.760] it's it's not something that appears all
[00:48:21.839] the time and uh becomes a part of your
[00:48:25.200] life on an everyday basis. You got other
[00:48:27.280] things you're doing and and so I think
[00:48:29.119] that's the reason why there's not enough
[00:48:31.119] public support for Congress to push this
[00:48:33.599] any further than it has been.
[00:48:36.800] >> Right. And I guess uh maybe going back
[00:48:38.640] to part of that discussion like you were
[00:48:40.480] describing like the general structure of
[00:48:42.480] like if the executive branch is doing
[00:48:44.319] something with an intelligence agency
[00:48:45.920] then maybe a couple of senators in the
[00:48:49.119] gang of eight would know about it. Um so
[00:48:51.280] do you think that
[00:48:53.359] because it seems like a lot of the high
[00:48:54.640] level senators on the intelligence
[00:48:55.920] committee like Mike Brown, Marco Rubio,
[00:48:58.319] Kirstson Gillibrand, they seem to like
[00:49:00.480] not know anything about topic or not
[00:49:03.760] much. I mean, they've probably seen more
[00:49:05.920] videos, but they don't have like the
[00:49:07.359] full picture. Um, and it also has seemed
[00:49:10.559] that way from the president's
[00:49:12.000] perspective. Um, so I I guess um and you
[00:49:17.440] were kind of describing like the general
[00:49:18.800] way that um secrecy and the government
[00:49:21.520] uh would work and how those different
[00:49:23.200] agencies interplay. Um but yeah, so I
[00:49:26.880] guess like what kinds of information
[00:49:28.319] would like what kinds of briefings would
[00:49:30.640] uh let's say like a a entry level
[00:49:33.839] congressman make like who has a secret
[00:49:36.400] clearance versus like gang of eight
[00:49:37.599] would like a top secret clearance like
[00:49:39.359] how do how would those briefings differ
[00:49:41.119] um because they've been going on but
[00:49:42.960] like what kinds of information would
[00:49:45.680] like they have access to on the
[00:49:47.520] different levels? Well, that's that's a
[00:49:49.920] really excellent question and and uh and
[00:49:52.800] I think the answer is
[00:49:55.520] when you
[00:49:57.359] when I used to get briefed on a program,
[00:49:59.520] I wasn't running, but I had to know
[00:50:01.680] about it because it was it fell under my
[00:50:05.599] uh my purview.
[00:50:08.000] Uh I would have somebody come in to my
[00:50:09.839] office and sit down and they would say,
[00:50:12.079] "I want to brief you on a program." And
[00:50:14.000] I, you know, and it's it's top secret.
[00:50:16.880] has a code word attached to it. I said,
[00:50:19.040] "Okay." And it's bigoted, which mean
[00:50:21.280] there's only a list of so many people
[00:50:22.640] that know about it. So, they make me
[00:50:25.200] sign an NDA.
[00:50:27.359] And of course, this is a totally
[00:50:29.520] different NDA. This is an NDA specific
[00:50:31.599] to this particular program. Now, when
[00:50:33.359] you join an intelligence organization
[00:50:34.960] and you get a TS, SC TI, I mean, uh,
[00:50:38.640] TSS,
[00:50:40.319] God, I forgot what it is anymore. But
[00:50:43.119] anyway, when you get these clearances,
[00:50:44.960] um, you get, you know, I I had a cube
[00:50:46.640] clearance, I had all these clearances,
[00:50:48.079] you know, but when you get these special
[00:50:50.240] clearances that come with it, you sign
[00:50:52.880] separate NDAs with those. So, what they
[00:50:54.720] do is they say, "Okay, here's the
[00:50:56.800] program. Here's the unclassified
[00:50:58.720] cryptonym that that describes your
[00:51:01.200] program. Here's the classified uh
[00:51:04.319] cryptonym for it, and this is what the
[00:51:06.160] program's about." And then you give you
[00:51:07.839] a general outline of what the program
[00:51:10.240] does. And sometimes they offer you a
[00:51:14.000] more indepth well they'll read you into
[00:51:16.960] everything.
[00:51:18.559] And if you agree to do that, you sign
[00:51:21.599] another NDA
[00:51:23.680] and you get on another picket list. And
[00:51:26.720] um I did that a few times and I learned
[00:51:29.040] my lesson. I I no I I used to turn I
[00:51:32.000] took the initial briefing but I never
[00:51:34.240] didn't take the the secondary one
[00:51:35.760] because I didn't want all that a all
[00:51:37.440] that information in my head. Number one.
[00:51:40.319] And number two, you know, you being in
[00:51:43.680] the agency for a long time and you ask
[00:51:45.599] any intelligence officer sometimes, you
[00:51:48.559] know, you mix what you read in the New
[00:51:50.000] York Times with what you hear in a
[00:51:51.599] classified briefing. You got to be
[00:51:52.960] really really careful and you generally
[00:51:54.640] don't say anything to anybody because
[00:51:56.240] you don't know what the hell you don't
[00:51:57.760] want you want to be so careful you don't
[00:51:59.280] want to let anything out. So I I didn't
[00:52:01.280] want that anymore. I mean I I so I I
[00:52:03.200] said no. So what I think is happening
[00:52:05.119] here is
[00:52:07.920] is um uh you know the they get told
[00:52:12.079] maybe a gang of eight member or two or
[00:52:14.480] three members or gang of we get told the
[00:52:16.400] initial they sign an NDA and they said
[00:52:18.800] look
[00:52:20.400] you uh you can um
[00:52:24.559] you you can be read into this fact that
[00:52:26.880] we have a program and this is what it
[00:52:28.800] entails
[00:52:30.319] and this is generally speaking what we
[00:52:32.720] know,
[00:52:34.240] but we can't tell you where it is. We
[00:52:36.720] can't tell you the nature of the
[00:52:38.400] research we're conducting. We can't tell
[00:52:40.800] you uh the names of the people that are
[00:52:42.720] running it. Uh we can only tell you that
[00:52:44.800] it actually exists. And I I think that's
[00:52:47.839] probably what a few people in Congress
[00:52:52.400] now know.
[00:52:54.480] But I don't think anybody's fully
[00:52:56.480] briefed on this because politicians, as
[00:53:00.880] you know, I mean, they're servants of
[00:53:02.240] the people, but at the same time,
[00:53:03.599] they're not there all the time. So, they
[00:53:05.040] they go and um and when you get a uh a
[00:53:09.119] politician like some of them uh are
[00:53:12.000] saying, you know, they they come right
[00:53:14.079] out and they said, "This has to be open.
[00:53:16.000] We have to tell the whole world about
[00:53:17.440] everything." You know, open up the
[00:53:18.800] doors. Let all this stuff out. I mean,
[00:53:20.960] seriously, are you going to tell you're
[00:53:22.480] going to tell a guy that? Uh I I tell
[00:53:25.119] him anything. Of course not. You're not
[00:53:26.640] because you know because the the problem
[00:53:29.599] is we may know I may know a thousand
[00:53:32.640] foot view of all this. But if there's a
[00:53:35.520] 50,000 foot view out there, and there
[00:53:37.839] probably is, and I don't know what the
[00:53:39.920] hell the other 49,000 ft has in it, I am
[00:53:43.280] sure as hell not going to say anything
[00:53:44.880] about it because um I don't want I don't
[00:53:47.760] want to jeopardize a the program that
[00:53:50.079] this aspects of the program that are
[00:53:52.319] really really, you know, uh they're
[00:53:54.319] secret for a reason. And I also don't
[00:53:56.880] know the full story. I don't know how
[00:53:59.280] dangerous this is. I don't know
[00:54:00.880] anything. I just know that, you know,
[00:54:03.280] gee, I'd like to see it disclosed, but I
[00:54:05.359] I I don't, you know, uh I don't
[00:54:07.440] necessarily want to uh uh uh get get to
[00:54:12.240] the point where I'm causing a national
[00:54:14.480] security concern.
[00:54:16.720] Is somebody jing jing jangling me or
[00:54:19.359] something?
[00:54:21.200] >> Um I don't
[00:54:22.640] >> uh is there you got a ringing somewhere?
[00:54:26.240] >> There's a kind of a ventilation going on
[00:54:29.760] on my side. Maybe if I mute uh just let
[00:54:32.079] me
[00:54:32.240] >> Oh, it doesn't make any difference. I
[00:54:33.200] don't mind hit listening to it, but it's
[00:54:34.559] just a ringing. Yeah.
[00:54:36.000] >> Okay. Yeah. Sorry about that.
[00:54:36.960] >> I thought it was me, you know. It's like
[00:54:38.240] I I don't know.
[00:54:39.520] >> Oh, yeah. Yeah, maybe.
[00:54:41.520] >> So, I mean, essentially essentially that
[00:54:43.200] I think I think what's going on now. So,
[00:54:45.839] you have the president and and those of
[00:54:47.520] you who any of you are in law school out
[00:54:49.440] there, you might want to look this up.
[00:54:51.440] There's something called the
[00:54:52.400] presidential executive action document.
[00:54:55.359] They've been around since
[00:54:58.400] 19
[00:55:00.720] 50some and uh highly secretive.
[00:55:04.880] Uh they are essentially documents that
[00:55:08.720] the president or the executive branch
[00:55:10.480] creates under the guidance of the
[00:55:12.480] president dealing with very specific
[00:55:17.760] issues that are of critical and national
[00:55:20.480] security importance to the country.
[00:55:23.520] They don't require the the presidential
[00:55:27.440] executive action do not require them to
[00:55:30.640] be briefed to Congress. They're solely
[00:55:33.920] something that the president uses
[00:55:35.839] themselves. So if he created this
[00:55:38.319] program, say Eisenhower or Truman,
[00:55:40.240] actually Truman wasn't, they wasn't
[00:55:42.319] established back then, but Eisenhower
[00:55:43.760] could have very created a PAD regarding
[00:55:46.720] UAP
[00:55:48.559] and and then he set it up, you know,
[00:55:50.960] with, you know, maybe with the agency or
[00:55:53.520] the Air Force Atomic Energy Commission.
[00:55:56.240] He set it up with some, you know, uh,
[00:55:58.640] defense contractors and said, "This is
[00:56:01.119] how this is going to be run. This is how
[00:56:02.799] we're going to deal with this." Because
[00:56:04.799] don't forget, I mean, back back in the
[00:56:07.280] uh early 50s. I mean, it was a scary
[00:56:09.359] time, right? We were worried about, you
[00:56:10.960] know, the Soviets dropping bombs. We
[00:56:12.799] were worried about psychological
[00:56:14.880] warfare. I mean, it was a whole
[00:56:16.079] different ballgame. And here they they
[00:56:17.520] run across this
[00:56:20.079] anomalous behavior that's going on. And
[00:56:22.559] uh maybe they have a craft or two, you
[00:56:25.119] know, Roswell um the incident in 1952
[00:56:28.160] over Washington DC. Uh all this radar
[00:56:31.599] data we had, we had visual sightings. I
[00:56:34.640] mean, what do you do with all that? I
[00:56:36.640] mean, and you don't want to panic
[00:56:38.000] anybody. Uh, the United States at that
[00:56:40.319] time was primarily agrarian. I mean, you
[00:56:42.880] know, telephone lines were primitive if
[00:56:45.119] anything. Most people didn't have
[00:56:46.880] television sets. They listened to
[00:56:48.480] radios. So, what do you do? Well, you
[00:56:51.200] you you first of all try to save off
[00:56:53.280] panic. Second thing you do is you don't
[00:56:55.359] screw up the te telecommunication
[00:56:57.280] system, which like I said is very very
[00:56:58.799] primitive. So, you you hide this.
[00:57:01.104] [clears throat] You keep it away.
[00:57:03.680] You keep looking at it, but again, you
[00:57:06.960] don't want to panic the public andor
[00:57:09.280] what if they found out very early on
[00:57:12.400] something
[00:57:14.240] very,
[00:57:16.160] let's say, dangerous or
[00:57:20.880] uh exotic about this that would
[00:57:24.160] completely
[00:57:27.040] completely upturn,
[00:57:29.599] you know, the way people think about
[00:57:31.200] life and and reality. in general. I I I
[00:57:35.359] wrote a paper recently on disclosure. It
[00:57:37.839] may or may not get published. I don't
[00:57:39.200] know. But um it [clears throat] has to
[00:57:40.799] go through the agency first. But um and
[00:57:43.520] I talk about this this this concept.
[00:57:47.440] And for me, you know, UAP
[00:57:51.359] and the phenomena, I I I I don't care
[00:57:55.760] too much about the nuts and bolts of it
[00:57:58.720] because, you know, let's say we have
[00:58:00.400] Downcraft. I have it on good authority
[00:58:01.920] that we do anywhere from 9 to 20, you
[00:58:06.160] know. Uh, and let's say we don't
[00:58:11.599] understand it at all. I mean, we've been
[00:58:13.440] looking at this thing forever, we can't
[00:58:15.280] figure it out, right? And the technology
[00:58:18.400] might be 30th century technology as far
[00:58:20.880] as we're concerned.
[00:58:22.799] But let's say we
[00:58:26.319] had a communications with um non-human
[00:58:29.920] intelligence some species
[00:58:33.359] and let's say um we looked we we
[00:58:37.680] listened to them heard them and maybe
[00:58:40.079] they explained a little bit about what
[00:58:41.839] they can do. I mean and and and what
[00:58:44.240] they have done. We could see now I mean
[00:58:46.079] the technology is absolutely incredible.
[00:58:48.720] They can appear disappear. It looks like
[00:58:50.400] they're able to manipulate
[00:58:52.640] uh energy
[00:58:54.480] andor possibly sta spacetime is you know
[00:58:57.520] how and how puto off and uh Eric Davis
[00:59:00.160] talked about this in uh in um the age of
[00:59:04.079] disclosure and I think that's the common
[00:59:07.200] theory right now that's going on in the
[00:59:09.440] government uh about what they think
[00:59:11.119] about UAP. It is highly highly complex
[00:59:15.599] and very very strange. But what does
[00:59:17.680] that actually mean? Well, if you look at
[00:59:20.400] I mean I talked to somebody once and and
[00:59:22.799] I asked them I said, you know, where do
[00:59:24.960] you go to to study this? I mean, do you
[00:59:28.880] go to an experimental physicist? Do you
[00:59:30.720] go to a theoretical physicist? Do you go
[00:59:33.200] to an engineer? And and the answer is
[00:59:35.680] you probably go to all of them, but you
[00:59:36.880] also go to a psychologist and you also
[00:59:39.119] go to religious scholars. Uh and you
[00:59:41.920] know, and you also go to social
[00:59:43.359] scientists because all of all of these
[00:59:45.520] disciplines, they're racked up on top of
[00:59:47.920] one. They're all involved in this and
[00:59:49.680] there's no way you can escape that. So,
[00:59:52.880] if you're looking at this and you know,
[00:59:55.920] I I mentioned this in the podcast a few
[00:59:57.520] times. You know, we're we're all used to
[00:59:59.920] living in this universe, this reality.
[01:00:02.559] It's it's a consensus reality, a
[01:00:05.040] consensus reality based on our sensory
[01:00:07.599] package that we're all born with, which
[01:00:09.680] is highly limited. And and so we're
[01:00:12.480] seeing things. I know, you know, I had a
[01:00:14.559] a friend of mine who was young young a
[01:00:17.280] younger guy and he was all disillusioned
[01:00:19.119] about this and that, questioning life in
[01:00:21.040] general. I said, you're looking at
[01:00:22.880] you're looking at reality or you're
[01:00:24.720] looking at your life through a very uh
[01:00:27.920] uh closed lens. I said, you you you
[01:00:31.119] don't see the you don't hear everything
[01:00:33.119] you should hear, see everything you
[01:00:34.799] hear. You don't sense anything. You
[01:00:36.720] know, there's a lot more out there that
[01:00:38.880] you can experience. It just is. It's
[01:00:40.880] just a lot more out there and
[01:00:44.079] so you're not really getting, you know,
[01:00:46.799] your interpretation of what reality is
[01:00:48.559] is really based on a limited number of
[01:00:50.880] facts. So, you know, you have to sort of
[01:00:52.799] sit back and go just live the life that
[01:00:54.559] you know and, you know, and do the best
[01:00:56.880] you can with it and what have you and
[01:00:58.720] try to study. But what what what happens
[01:01:02.319] if you look at this and you say, "Oh,
[01:01:07.440] uh, let me get back to what I was
[01:01:09.119] talking about. You know, I asked the
[01:01:10.319] scientist where where would I look? And
[01:01:12.160] he said, if you drew a vin diagram,
[01:01:16.799] the little circle in the middle should
[01:01:19.359] be consciousness
[01:01:21.359] and maybe quantum mechanics. That's
[01:01:24.559] probably where all this lies. I mean,
[01:01:27.040] Max Plank, one of the fathers of quantum
[01:01:30.240] mechanics, said in 1931 something to the
[01:01:33.359] effect that
[01:01:35.040] um
[01:01:36.799] matter is derivative from consciousness.
[01:01:40.880] He's convinced of that. He said it it's
[01:01:42.880] all consciousness and and essentially
[01:01:46.079] what we're looking at, what we see is
[01:01:49.680] losery to a certain extent.
[01:01:53.280] I mean, if you're a quantum mech quantum
[01:01:56.240] physicist, you know, are we all spitting
[01:02:00.000] masses of energy, right? And if that's
[01:02:03.119] the case, that's our true be, our true
[01:02:05.440] being, true nature, dig deeper into that
[01:02:08.400] and look even closer into that and you
[01:02:11.440] end up being
[01:02:13.359] pretty much nothing. If the space
[01:02:14.960] between atoms is just, you know, in
[01:02:17.040] infinite or close to infinite and
[01:02:19.280] electrons and what have you, I mean,
[01:02:20.559] what are we really? Are we just
[01:02:22.720] spiritual beings or or are we just parts
[01:02:26.480] of, you know, a non-local consciousness
[01:02:30.160] that somehow or other incarnated into
[01:02:33.040] these physical beings
[01:02:35.520] uh that we are today for a particular
[01:02:38.240] reason nobody knows about.
[01:02:40.720] So that's this is what what concerns me
[01:02:44.480] and this is what's sort of frightening
[01:02:47.599] and also fascinating at the same time
[01:02:50.480] because I think UAP and the phenomenon
[01:02:52.480] at its most basic level
[01:02:55.520] questions makes you questions question
[01:02:58.559] the nature of reality itself and that
[01:03:01.599] what we view as our fixed reality may
[01:03:04.400] not be fixed at all. It may be something
[01:03:06.960] totally different and as I mentioned
[01:03:09.200] this before and not readily digestible.
[01:03:11.440] It is not something that most people
[01:03:13.839] would be ready to take on.
[01:03:17.039] We've we we have been living in this
[01:03:19.119] medieval
[01:03:21.119] view. Our life is they call it the great
[01:03:23.280] chain of being back in the middle ages.
[01:03:26.400] There's God, you know, angels, man, and
[01:03:28.720] you go down the list. And um but that's
[01:03:32.640] sort of how we see ourselves even to
[01:03:34.720] this day. Even after Newton and
[01:03:36.319] everybody else, you know, we still most
[01:03:38.559] people see themselves that way. And but
[01:03:40.880] what if we're not number three?
[01:03:44.400] What what if we're like number five uh
[01:03:46.799] on that list? What if free will doesn't
[01:03:50.240] really exist? What if I know [snorts]
[01:03:53.200] some of your people out there might be
[01:03:54.880] familiar with Charles Fort probably the
[01:03:56.640] granddaddy of all this of anomalous
[01:03:58.880] behaviors and I mean he said after
[01:04:02.319] studying this for many many many years
[01:04:04.799] he thought we were property he thought
[01:04:06.960] thought we belong to some non-human
[01:04:09.680] intelligence
[01:04:11.520] you know uh that's able to do things to
[01:04:15.119] us at their will and and you certainly
[01:04:19.680] do see instances of that uh if you read
[01:04:22.960] the literature uh the UAP literature and
[01:04:25.119] I've read almost everything that's out
[01:04:27.359] there when you talk to contacties
[01:04:31.039] uh and I get people writing me all the
[01:04:33.680] time about their experiences
[01:04:36.319] you
[01:04:38.319] it's these people are normal people and
[01:04:41.200] and yet they're having these incredibly
[01:04:45.440] earthshattering changes to their lives
[01:04:48.640] and you can interpret it you know some
[01:04:50.319] people interpret as a good thing. Well,
[01:04:52.000] they've re reached a theophony or some
[01:04:55.119] kind of uh catharsis and now they're
[01:04:59.920] were spiritual beings. They they've
[01:05:01.520] learned, you know, that reality is, you
[01:05:03.359] know, much much greater than that and
[01:05:04.799] we're actually spiritual beings. You you
[01:05:06.240] can take it that way. But then there are
[01:05:07.920] people have the exact opposite ones.
[01:05:09.359] Now, granted, maybe like 10 20% of the
[01:05:12.160] experiences have not a very good
[01:05:13.760] experience with this uh and they don't
[01:05:17.200] uh they don't react well to it. And this
[01:05:19.839] goes back to what I said earlier about
[01:05:21.839] being grounded uh when you wanted to get
[01:05:23.760] into this because once you get into
[01:05:25.119] this, you really quickly go to uh this
[01:05:29.280] area here. Well, what the hell does this
[01:05:30.720] mean for us? Um uh don't know. I mean,
[01:05:35.280] is there advanced technology
[01:05:38.880] commenurate with their advanced
[01:05:41.440] spiritual development or development of
[01:05:44.160] their own consciousness? I mean, if
[01:05:45.520] they're able to manipulate reality,
[01:05:48.079] which we've seen time and time again,
[01:05:52.000] what does that what what does that mean
[01:05:53.680] for us? Uh, and the answer is, you know,
[01:05:56.240] I don't know. And if you want to have
[01:05:58.240] disclosure,
[01:06:00.240] how the hell are you going to do that?
[01:06:02.000] How how are you going to come out and
[01:06:03.680] say,
[01:06:05.920] uh, we have, uh, met with NHI or we have
[01:06:11.760] CRAFT, we're not alone in the universe.
[01:06:14.480] and you want to limit that and you don't
[01:06:16.319] want to tell them, you know, maybe you
[01:06:18.480] don't want to tell them anymore, but
[01:06:19.839] maybe you don't know anymore. Maybe you
[01:06:21.280] have absolutely no other information.
[01:06:24.400] Well, now you have this huge meatball
[01:06:28.720] that's hanging out there, right? And
[01:06:30.400] it's like, well, people are going, "What
[01:06:32.000] the hell? You you're going to leave me
[01:06:34.000] with this? What the hell does this
[01:06:35.839] mean?" So, people are running to their
[01:06:37.200] synagogue. They're running to their
[01:06:38.480] church. They're running to, you know, uh
[01:06:41.119] to mosques and and they're saying, you
[01:06:43.920] know, help me with this. How does this
[01:06:45.359] fit into, you know, this this new
[01:06:47.039] cosmology fit into my religion or my
[01:06:51.119] social construct or my cultural
[01:06:53.039] construct? What does it mean for me? Uh
[01:06:55.760] where does what does that put me? Uh how
[01:06:58.000] do I fit in, you know, which I, you
[01:07:00.799] know, in a place where I thought I knew
[01:07:02.559] my place and now I don't know my place
[01:07:04.240] at all. It's completely up in the air.
[01:07:05.760] It's a very very dangerous thing to do.
[01:07:08.400] And then you look at children.
[01:07:11.599] The hell do you tell an 8-year-old?
[01:07:14.880] Particularly if this comes out, what do
[01:07:16.880] you tell him when he comes up to you and
[01:07:17.920] he says, "Are they going to come get
[01:07:19.039] me?"
[01:07:21.119] Uh, well, maybe not. You know, oh,
[01:07:24.079] they're not going to come get you. But
[01:07:25.520] yeah, and he hears all these people or
[01:07:27.359] he sees all these people talking about
[01:07:29.039] it and everybody's going to fill in that
[01:07:31.280] narrative from some crazy ass, you know,
[01:07:34.240] uh, Alex Jones to, you know, to, you
[01:07:37.520] know, well-meaning [clears throat]
[01:07:38.400] people talking about space brothers and
[01:07:41.119] you would have these maybe a thousand
[01:07:43.119] different narratives. all the contactes
[01:07:45.599] would come out, you know, um to the
[01:07:48.400] stars would have to come out, you know,
[01:07:50.079] Soul Foundation, SCU, MUON, I mean,
[01:07:53.599] really credible organizations, but they
[01:07:55.200] would come out and they would try to
[01:07:56.240] say, "Hey, wait a minute. Let's let's
[01:07:57.440] let's uh be realistic here. Let's let's
[01:08:00.160] look at this." But once it's out, it's
[01:08:02.799] out. So, I don't I know the government
[01:08:06.319] has spent time thinking about that, and
[01:08:08.640] this is probably reason why it hasn't
[01:08:10.319] come out. Maybe they know something they
[01:08:12.640] don't want to come out because they're
[01:08:15.039] afraid it it would be so
[01:08:17.440] problematic.
[01:08:19.759] Then again, maybe they don't know
[01:08:22.640] anything. Maybe they really tr don't
[01:08:25.359] know anything. Maybe there's there's a
[01:08:27.839] nothing burger there. They have the
[01:08:29.920] downcraft. They have alien bodies. Maybe
[01:08:32.080] they had conversations, but there's no
[01:08:35.520] information beyond that. I mean, they
[01:08:37.040] they they can't extrapolate. I mean, um,
[01:08:39.839] people always said to me, well, you
[01:08:41.199] know, they're they're hiding, you know,
[01:08:42.560] these great energy,
[01:08:45.359] uh, successes and and we'll be able to
[01:08:48.560] take all this new technology and they're
[01:08:51.040] they're hoarding it. Well, you know,
[01:08:54.480] you're seeing a great example of
[01:08:56.880] asymmetric warfare going on right now in
[01:08:59.520] Ukraine and you're seeing it in Iran.
[01:09:01.759] What happens if you take a technology
[01:09:04.319] that's free to everybody,
[01:09:07.279] a technology that you can use to create
[01:09:09.920] a weapon, any kind of weapon, a weapon
[01:09:13.040] that's extremely lethal, and everybody
[01:09:16.400] has the capacity to make that weapon,
[01:09:19.520] uh, from, you know, a group of, uh,
[01:09:22.400] diyers, you know, uh, sitting in, um, an
[01:09:26.319] engineering lab at MIT decide they want
[01:09:28.319] to use this technology to create
[01:09:29.839] something really great. And then you
[01:09:31.279] have somebody else, some um you know
[01:09:34.319] crazy cult who decides they want to wipe
[01:09:36.799] out you know something and
[01:09:39.839] bad people exist in the world and and
[01:09:41.839] you know you you have to plan for that.
[01:09:43.600] So I mean there are so many different
[01:09:45.359] things you have to look at when you look
[01:09:47.199] at disclosure and when you look at this
[01:09:49.040] whole concept of UAP and the phenomenon
[01:09:51.920] it's just more than um uh you know oh
[01:09:55.360] these people are here or the NHI is here
[01:09:58.000] uh to help us. We have no clue why the
[01:10:00.000] hell they're here. We have no clue why
[01:10:01.760] they're why they're coming. They they
[01:10:03.840] say two things, sometimes three. First
[01:10:07.520] thing is quit screwing around with
[01:10:08.880] nuclear weapons. Second thing they say
[01:10:10.960] is
[01:10:13.360] um [snorts] uh quit screwing around with
[01:10:16.159] the planet, with the climate. And the
[01:10:18.400] third thing they say is, "Well, we're
[01:10:21.040] part of a hybrid program and we're, you
[01:10:23.120] know, we're looking at you and and we're
[01:10:25.360] trying to hybridize, you know, humans so
[01:10:28.239] we will be able to communicate better
[01:10:29.760] and all this kind of kind of crap." But
[01:10:31.199] the fact of the matter is
[01:10:33.840] UAP and these NHI lie through their
[01:10:36.960] teeth constantly. They're deceitful. I
[01:10:40.239] mean, that's that is a light motif that
[01:10:42.159] runs through this topic for the last 80
[01:10:44.960] years. And um I've had people tell me
[01:10:48.480] that, you know, very credible people
[01:10:50.480] tell me they're in touch with, you know,
[01:10:52.800] their alien brothers who say, "Oh, we're
[01:10:54.880] going to land on, you know, in the
[01:10:56.880] United Nations on such and such a date
[01:10:58.400] or we're going to do this or we're going
[01:10:59.600] to do that." And I always tell them,
[01:11:01.520] "Bullshit. Ain't going to happen. Not
[01:11:04.000] going to happen. It's apocalypticism.
[01:11:05.679] It's millennial millinarialism. I'm
[01:11:08.480] sorry, I can't pronounce that." But and
[01:11:11.280] it's it's common and and and it it's
[01:11:13.440] common with religious cosmologies and
[01:11:15.360] it's it's it it it's common in religion
[01:11:17.520] in general. People predicting things and
[01:11:19.920] these these entities tend to do that.
[01:11:22.960] They tend to come to people and say
[01:11:24.560] things like that and the people believe
[01:11:27.760] them but it never it's never true most
[01:11:30.159] of the time. Sometimes things do happen
[01:11:32.960] uh uh and and they are true but most of
[01:11:35.040] the time they do not. That is an
[01:11:37.679] extraordinarily long- winded answer uh
[01:11:40.000] to a uh and probably [laughter]
[01:11:42.719] to a a question that was much more
[01:11:44.719] specific than what I was going for. So,
[01:11:46.800] sorry.
[01:11:47.520] >> No, that was great. Um yeah, I mean,
[01:11:50.239] yeah, it's a huge topic that goes all
[01:11:53.679] over the place and
[01:11:55.600] >> Yeah.
[01:11:55.920] >> Yeah.
[01:11:57.280] >> Yeah. Yeah, I guess I have like a
[01:11:59.199] concrete more concrete question than I'm
[01:12:01.280] happy to like keep sort of going down uh
[01:12:04.320] you know more you know the different
[01:12:06.239] nature of things but um so I guess Chris
[01:12:08.800] Melon who at the time about 10 years ago
[01:12:12.880] he was involved with TTSA.
[01:12:14.800] >> Yeah.
[01:12:15.199] >> He was the one that went into the
[01:12:16.960] Pentagon. So just and got the Navy
[01:12:19.520] videos that are like the gimbal, the
[01:12:21.040] goast and the um that were used in the
[01:12:24.159] 2017 New York Times article. Um and just
[01:12:27.679] yeah Chris Melon he was a high level
[01:12:29.199] intelligence official and he's um been
[01:12:32.000] behind the scenes been a lot of the
[01:12:33.520] current disclosure movement. Um can you
[01:12:35.040] describe the story of like how he got he
[01:12:38.080] um do do you know any details of like
[01:12:40.719] how he got the videos and like I guess
[01:12:43.040] being being as briefed as he is he
[01:12:45.920] probably had an easier time than other
[01:12:48.480] people.
[01:12:50.239] Uh the videos
[01:12:53.199] I saw the videos in
[01:12:55.920] Lou's office at the Pentagon before they
[01:12:58.719] were released and they had to clear all
[01:13:02.960] the top secret data that was
[01:13:04.640] surrounding. If you see the videos, you
[01:13:05.920] see all this data around the images.
[01:13:08.400] That's maybe a third of what's actually
[01:13:10.960] there. I mean, so the videos had to be
[01:13:13.440] cleaned up. uh the data our surrounding
[01:13:15.760] had to be cleaned up uh because it would
[01:13:18.320] be revealing to people to know what kind
[01:13:20.560] of technologies we have. I mean we have
[01:13:22.800] the best sonars and radars on radars on
[01:13:24.800] the market. I mean it's just just
[01:13:26.000] incredibly how how good these things
[01:13:27.760] are. So, um, when when Lou explained to
[01:13:32.239] me how this was being declassified,
[01:13:35.600] um, they wanted to get the videos out,
[01:13:38.719] we all thought, um, the best thing to do
[01:13:41.679] was let Lou handle that his own way. And
[01:13:45.280] then Chris spoke with Lou and Chris
[01:13:49.040] thought it would be best to let him
[01:13:51.520] handle it his own way. So, I never
[01:13:54.320] question Chris about that. Uh, and I
[01:13:56.560] think that's a smart thing to do. So,
[01:13:59.280] Chris was able to get them out. I was
[01:14:01.840] with Chris and Lou, myself and Hal put
[01:14:06.400] off uh at uh the hotel where we met with
[01:14:10.560] Leslie Kaine and where we explained we
[01:14:13.760] showed her the videos uh and then we
[01:14:16.159] explained to her you know what was going
[01:14:18.640] on and then she took it to Helen gosh
[01:14:23.199] can't remember her last name at the New
[01:14:25.360] York Times and then Ralph Blumenthal and
[01:14:28.400] they convinced the New York Times to run
[01:14:31.120] But, you know, as I talked to Leslie, I,
[01:14:33.760] you know, after it came out, um, I said,
[01:14:37.040] Leslie, I said, it's great that this
[01:14:39.520] came out on the front page of the New
[01:14:41.040] York Times. I said, but it's, they
[01:14:43.440] missed the point, you know, and I said,
[01:14:46.800] their major goal was, you know, the
[01:14:48.800] Pentagon studying UFOs, and they have a
[01:14:50.800] $22 million program studying UFOs. $22
[01:14:54.080] million is spit in a bucket, you know,
[01:14:56.800] for a program. and um uh and and you
[01:15:00.640] know so that wasn't
[01:15:03.600] they should have said I mean they should
[01:15:05.520] have focused on the fact that why does a
[01:15:07.600] Pentagon
[01:15:09.280] looking at this and what does this
[01:15:11.120] actually mean uh you know you know it it
[01:15:14.159] it's this is life-changing it's it's
[01:15:16.480] lifealtering for everybody yes UAPs are
[01:15:19.920] real they didn't focus on that and
[01:15:22.159] that's just the New York Times they're
[01:15:23.600] very stayed and conservative along along
[01:15:26.239] those lines follow-up pieces were
[01:15:28.320] written. Uh Times wouldn't publish them.
[01:15:31.760] Uh they went to other publications. Uh
[01:15:34.320] but you know, I have to always thank
[01:15:36.560] Chris
[01:15:38.080] Melon and and Lou for everything they
[01:15:41.600] did with pushing this in Congress. Um
[01:15:45.520] and um I was I had contracts at the
[01:15:50.159] time. I couldn't get too involved. I did
[01:15:51.760] my own thing in other levels with other
[01:15:55.360] agencies.
[01:15:57.199] uh and uh non-public, but uh they did
[01:16:00.640] Yman's work on that and uh that's what
[01:16:02.880] got everything started. And then when
[01:16:04.640] Dave Grush came out, um that added more
[01:16:07.679] fuel to the fire, so to speak. So,
[01:16:12.400] >> and I guess like before and after the
[01:16:15.600] New York Times article, like it made it
[01:16:18.800] made like a sea change of difference in
[01:16:20.239] terms of like the media and lawmakers
[01:16:22.640] getting attention. Um like I I h how is
[01:16:26.880] that experience like can can you like
[01:16:29.120] describe what it was like living through
[01:16:30.320] that on the inside
[01:16:33.199] the change like before and after the
[01:16:34.560] article?
[01:16:36.000] >> Yeah, it was it was it was quite a sweet
[01:16:38.000] change. I mean it the UFO community was
[01:16:40.239] just beside themselves. It was the first
[01:16:42.880] time, you know, in 80 years, I mean,
[01:16:46.239] that that, you know, uh, that, you know,
[01:16:49.840] you had a, you know, America's
[01:16:52.159] newspaper, you know, coming out and
[01:16:53.679] saying this and and and and you had
[01:16:55.600] credible people basically coming out and
[01:16:59.120] and affirming that yes, this is indeed
[01:17:01.280] real. Um, uh, you know, you have
[01:17:03.520] skeptics out there. It won't it's fine.
[01:17:05.040] You need skeptics. I'm all for having
[01:17:07.040] skeptics, but um uh you know, they'll
[01:17:10.080] they'll come out and they'll try to make
[01:17:11.440] you know, oh no, no, this this this
[01:17:13.360] video is this and that's a
[01:17:15.440] When you talk to the people that were
[01:17:16.800] running the radars and and and you know,
[01:17:18.320] and you you look at all this stuff,
[01:17:20.159] there's no way no way these things
[01:17:22.800] aren't real. A, number one, and B,
[01:17:25.280] they're definitely not Russian, and they
[01:17:27.040] are most definitely not Chinese, and
[01:17:29.199] they sure as hell aren't ours. And I
[01:17:31.360] know that for a fact because that's what
[01:17:33.360] I used to do in the agency. I studied
[01:17:35.280] very high technology, who had it, what
[01:17:37.679] they had, what we had, and
[01:17:39.360] countermeasures to both. So, uh, we're
[01:17:42.080] not even close to this, and um, uh,
[01:17:44.640] having this. So, if we don't have it,
[01:17:46.880] and they don't, I mean, who the hell
[01:17:48.480] else could it possibly be? Uh, so yeah,
[01:17:51.760] something else exists
[01:17:54.000] out there with us.
[01:17:56.560] and they're able to come
[01:17:59.360] to this planet or able to show
[01:18:01.600] themselves on our planet or they live on
[01:18:04.560] this planet. This is the
[01:18:05.920] ultraterrestrial theory which the three
[01:18:08.560] main theories are extraterrestrial,
[01:18:10.400] interdimensional and ultraterrestrial.
[01:18:12.480] All three may be true uh uh at the same
[01:18:16.239] time. Uh we don't know but um and again
[01:18:19.440] we don't know um and uh and we don't
[01:18:23.280] know because one of the main here I go
[01:18:24.880] off on another tangent but we don't know
[01:18:26.800] because the NHI whatever this
[01:18:30.320] intelligence is that's showing up it's
[01:18:34.480] not introducing itself. It's it's it's
[01:18:37.600] knocking on your door and running away.
[01:18:39.199] I mean, it it's knocking on your door
[01:18:40.719] and leaving something, you know. It
[01:18:42.239] shows itself as a tic tac. It shows
[01:18:44.560] itself as a cylinder, you know, as a
[01:18:47.600] flying saucer, as a disc. Uh, you name
[01:18:50.400] it. It's probably 50 or 60 different
[01:18:52.640] variations on the theme. Uh, it comes in
[01:18:55.840] six or seven different NHI varieties
[01:18:58.320] from, you know, uh, Nordics to, uh, uh,
[01:19:01.920] you know, grays to cobalts. I mean,
[01:19:04.239] there's, you know, uh, a lot of them.
[01:19:07.280] And are they shapeshifting? Are they
[01:19:09.600] just one species? Are they really six
[01:19:11.920] species? Are there more species? Are
[01:19:13.679] they reptilians, manes? I Nobody knows.
[01:19:17.600] Nobody knows because it doesn't it
[01:19:19.280] hasn't introduced itself. It for
[01:19:20.880] whatever reason, it might even be
[01:19:23.199] controlling disclosure. It might be the
[01:19:25.760] one that's preventing disclosure from
[01:19:27.360] happening or has prevented disclosure
[01:19:28.960] from happening. We don't know. We just
[01:19:32.000] don't know. It's one big question mark.
[01:19:34.080] I like to quote Whitley Strieber on
[01:19:35.920] this. um he said it's like we're walking
[01:19:38.560] through a forest of hypothesis and
[01:19:41.280] that's exactly where we are today,
[01:19:46.000] >> right? And yeah, and and I guess a lot
[01:19:50.480] of these hypotheses like they're getting
[01:19:52.880] percolating up into like broader swats
[01:19:55.120] of the public. Um and I guess your
[01:19:58.480] personal journey as far as uh
[01:20:01.040] researching the topic, you said you've
[01:20:02.480] been interested for about 40 years. Was
[01:20:05.120] that like after your personal encounter?
[01:20:07.600] No, it was just Yeah, it was it was
[01:20:09.440] before I mean I started out with uh uh
[01:20:15.360] Greek uh Roman mystery schools uh you
[01:20:19.199] know western mysticism
[01:20:21.760] uh and then you know progressed into
[01:20:24.640] romanticism which took me to Swedenborg
[01:20:27.360] Emanuel Swedenborg the 17th century
[01:20:30.239] Swedish mystic which goes into German
[01:20:32.320] romanticism and then it goes into uh and
[01:20:35.040] it just got more and more into um uh
[01:20:40.960] the mystical aspects of of life and uh
[01:20:45.920] and it's which has always existed. It's
[01:20:48.880] always been a theme. I mean if you uh
[01:20:51.440] and it gets into religions too. I mean
[01:20:53.440] you if you look at any religion, they
[01:20:56.640] all say the same story as their
[01:20:58.239] beginnings. You know uh uh you know um
[01:21:01.280] some god came down, an angel came down.
[01:21:03.840] You can take every religion will tell
[01:21:05.040] you the same thing. and they gave us
[01:21:07.520] this knowledge or they told us X, you
[01:21:09.679] know, and um even you know indigenous
[01:21:13.120] tribes uh you know in the US uh Native
[01:21:16.000] Americans um and um you know Aboriginals
[01:21:20.080] you know in you know in the Far East all
[01:21:24.080] say the same thing. Uh you know the
[01:21:26.000] Mormons you know have the whole thing
[01:21:27.600] with the angel Moroni coming down to
[01:21:29.600] Joseph Smith and you know appearing to
[01:21:31.840] him and doing all that. So
[01:21:33.561] [clears throat] that cosmology is sort
[01:21:35.199] of there. I mean the Indian sub you know
[01:21:36.960] culture on this is probably the oldest
[01:21:38.560] one the one I like the most because I
[01:21:41.600] think it's more developed
[01:21:44.640] uh is about how this all came to be uh
[01:21:47.600] but it goes back to Samrians uh also and
[01:21:50.880] um
[01:21:52.480] so you you look at all that and you know
[01:21:55.280] you say okay these are the cosmologies
[01:21:57.679] that we were brought up with these are
[01:21:59.679] and they turned into religions and um
[01:22:04.080] you know I'm [snorts] not a very
[01:22:06.080] religious person at all. I mean just the
[01:22:08.320] opposite. But I you have to you have to
[01:22:11.760] respect it for what it is. And this is
[01:22:14.080] why religious scholars need to be
[01:22:16.000] involved in all of this to a certain
[01:22:18.239] extent. But you know uh I think I think
[01:22:22.480] the Indian culture
[01:22:25.600] would have less of a problem dealing
[01:22:28.239] with this because it's part of their
[01:22:30.880] culture. uh and uh I think eastern
[01:22:34.480] religions it's part of their culture. I
[01:22:36.639] mean yeah I mean they they were very
[01:22:38.400] very close had a very very spiritual
[01:22:40.159] side. Most people grew up that way. The
[01:22:42.400] west not so much. And I think it'd be
[01:22:45.280] more and more difficult for the west to
[01:22:47.360] ingest uh some of this. Uh particularly
[01:22:50.719] if it's it turns out that our view of
[01:22:53.120] reality is is much different than it
[01:22:54.960] really is which I highly suspect that's
[01:22:57.920] the case. Well, hell, I mean it is it is
[01:23:00.159] the case. So, but you know, I go back to
[01:23:04.719] my other point is, you know, where do we
[01:23:06.800] go
[01:23:08.320] to look at it? There's no place. I wrote
[01:23:12.000] the introduction to Chris Bledso's book,
[01:23:14.639] you know, UFO of God. And Chris and I
[01:23:16.719] are friends. Don't agree on everything,
[01:23:18.560] but we're we're we're very good friends.
[01:23:20.480] I'm going to be seeing him in another
[01:23:22.560] week. uh uh and uh he uh but what I what
[01:23:27.120] I what I wrote in the in the the forward
[01:23:28.960] or the introduction was um there's no
[01:23:31.600] there there. That's the problem with all
[01:23:33.679] of this. It just isn't. And I I don't
[01:23:37.920] know where to go.
[01:23:39.920] uh you know and it's it's it's this why
[01:23:42.880] you and your uh you know your club or
[01:23:46.960] your organization uh you know we'll call
[01:23:50.400] guys like me or Tim you know Admiral
[01:23:52.239] Galedet or whoever and and speak to them
[01:23:55.040] because we're the only ones out there
[01:23:57.040] that are even talking about it um you
[01:23:58.960] know that have former government
[01:24:00.159] backgrounds at least. So, um, but I I,
[01:24:04.320] you know, I I would tell people to pay
[01:24:05.679] very, very close attention, however, to
[01:24:07.520] Hal and Eric, particularly in age of
[01:24:09.840] disclosure.
[01:24:11.600] Um, I think they hit about as close to
[01:24:14.480] the truth as you can probably get right
[01:24:17.600] now. But John Mack, who, you know, was
[01:24:20.239] big Harvard
[01:24:22.239] chair of psychology department, he
[01:24:24.000] introduced, I mean, uh, at Harvard, he
[01:24:27.520] did a study. He wrote two books,
[01:24:29.120] Passport to the Cosmos and um I can't
[01:24:32.400] remember the other one. I have it up
[01:24:33.520] here. Uh [sighs]
[01:24:36.639] Abduct, no, I don't know what it's
[01:24:37.760] called. But anyway, he he probably
[01:24:39.040] interviewed, you know, hundreds of
[01:24:40.800] abductees, quote unquote abductees. But
[01:24:42.800] in the end, um what he was left with uh
[01:24:46.080] before he died, he had said, "Well, you
[01:24:49.360] know, the best we can come up with is
[01:24:52.560] that this is a mystery, and that's
[01:24:54.639] probably as far as we should go with it,
[01:24:56.800] right?
[01:24:58.320] uh uh because you know [snorts] the road
[01:25:01.760] ends very very quickly when you study
[01:25:03.679] this
[01:25:06.080] >> right so and I guess like after all
[01:25:08.080] these years of being interested in the
[01:25:09.600] topic like you probably know more facts
[01:25:11.600] than you did you started but do you feel
[01:25:14.000] like you know more about it?
[01:25:16.960] >> No, not at all. I mean I'm more confused
[01:25:19.440] uh than I've ever been. Uh particularly
[01:25:21.360] when you look at things like near-death
[01:25:22.880] experiences
[01:25:24.800] uh
[01:25:26.400] uh and you look at psychic
[01:25:31.440] uh um categories
[01:25:35.360] uh like clairvoyance, telepathy, we know
[01:25:37.679] telepathy is real. I mean it's real. We
[01:25:40.000] know clairvoyance is real. We know
[01:25:41.920] remote viewing is real. We know
[01:25:43.760] telekinesis is real. We know divination
[01:25:46.080] is real. We just can't explain it. We
[01:25:48.800] simply can't explain it. We don't we
[01:25:50.159] don't know. I mean, Rupert Cheldre, uh,
[01:25:52.560] the biologist, you know, tried to
[01:25:54.080] explain it, you know, uh, when he wrote
[01:25:56.560] a couple of his books, you know, the
[01:25:58.800] sense of being stared at, um, why dogs
[01:26:01.520] know when their masters are coming home,
[01:26:02.960] things along those lines. And he has
[01:26:04.159] this whole theory behind it, but it's a
[01:26:06.719] theory and and, uh, it's it's no one's
[01:26:09.920] been able to replicate it or no one's
[01:26:11.520] been able to basically add to it. So,
[01:26:14.880] yeah, it's very very frustrating. If you
[01:26:16.560] read Jacques Valet's journals, his
[01:26:18.400] personal journals, his latest one that's
[01:26:20.560] out, the volume six. I mean, if you read
[01:26:23.120] that, I mean, that's sort of, and I
[01:26:26.000] don't want to speak for him because I
[01:26:27.199] can't, but that's sort of the feeling I
[01:26:28.800] got when I read it. It was like, holy
[01:26:30.880] I've been studying this for 65, 70
[01:26:33.199] years, and this is what this is what I
[01:26:35.600] end up with. You know, I, you know, I'm
[01:26:40.239] I don't know all that much more than I
[01:26:41.760] did. I mean, I know some of the details
[01:26:43.679] about maybe the government knows this or
[01:26:45.600] the government does that or what have
[01:26:46.800] you or stories, but as far as what the
[01:26:49.280] phenomenon actually is,
[01:26:52.239] no,
[01:26:54.639] no, it's um, you know, that's why I tell
[01:26:58.320] people, you know, you you can do this as
[01:27:01.360] a hobby, but I wouldn't devote more time
[01:27:03.040] to it until you get situated. You know
[01:27:05.520] what I mean? If you're you get a good
[01:27:07.520] job, whatever the story is, maybe you
[01:27:10.239] you know you get married or you know you
[01:27:12.000] have a partner, you have a nice life
[01:27:14.000] together, you're raising kids, whatever
[01:27:15.440] the story is, whatever your story is,
[01:27:17.440] and when you have time to do that, then
[01:27:20.000] you can do that.
[01:27:22.159] Otherwise, you can just spin yourself in
[01:27:23.760] circles.
[01:27:27.199] >> Yeah, I can see totally how that would
[01:27:28.880] happen.
[01:27:29.840] >> Yeah. Yeah. And it has happened. I know
[01:27:31.679] people that get so tied up in this. I
[01:27:34.320] mean I mean they're sad cases. I mean
[01:27:36.560] some of them they can't function, you
[01:27:38.880] know, and um
[01:27:41.040] >> Yeah.
[01:27:42.000] >> Yeah. And and and you know and this
[01:27:43.920] phenomena could be really unrelenting
[01:27:46.480] with some people, you know, doesn't
[01:27:48.639] leave them alone,
[01:27:51.520] >> right? And even just like thinking about
[01:27:54.480] it all the time. Um but I guess does
[01:27:56.960] anyone have any questions that they want
[01:27:58.960] to ask? Yeah, I've been asking most of
[01:28:01.520] the questions, but everyone's free to uh
[01:28:05.679] chime in.
[01:28:07.840] Yeah. So, I have a couple more. So, just
[01:28:10.560] raise your hand or put questions in the
[01:28:12.159] chat. Um Oh, yeah. Someone has a
[01:28:15.040] question. Evan, do you want to go ahead
[01:28:21.520] unmute you?
[01:28:23.679] >> Hey, how's it going Jim? Big
[01:28:25.120] >> Hi, Evan. How you doing, bud?
[01:28:26.719] >> Amazing so far, man. I I really
[01:28:28.719] appreciate everything you're saying. So,
[01:28:30.639] um, one thing I've, you know, I've been
[01:28:33.040] kind of trying to figure out is that,
[01:28:35.120] you know, your colleagues Tom and Hal
[01:28:37.520] have kind of suggested that during the
[01:28:39.440] early Cold War, intact craft may have
[01:28:41.520] been placed within the borders of
[01:28:42.960] multiple nations as either like a test
[01:28:45.280] or some sort of catalyst. Do you think
[01:28:46.800] there's any validity to that? And if so,
[01:28:49.440] what do you think the logic is behind
[01:28:50.960] that?
[01:28:52.560] I think we I think there was a crash in
[01:28:56.639] 33 in Italy near Turin and I think the
[01:29:00.480] Italians got the craft, gave it to the
[01:29:03.440] Germans. The Germans started working on
[01:29:05.920] figuring out a way how it worked. It was
[01:29:07.520] probably one of their super weapons uh
[01:29:10.239] uh that they were trying to develop and
[01:29:11.840] I think after the war was over um we got
[01:29:14.719] a hold of it through the Vatican. Dave
[01:29:18.000] Grush mentioned this. Um, and Magenta,
[01:29:20.800] you know, and, um, but I think we also
[01:29:23.280] have Roswell was real. Uh, and, uh,
[01:29:26.159] there was another one north of there,
[01:29:28.320] too. Uh, Trinity was real, in my
[01:29:31.760] opinion, Trinity was real. Um, Jacqulay
[01:29:34.480] has a book out on it. Uh
[01:29:37.920] you know the the problem is when you
[01:29:40.880] uh when you end up with say if you end
[01:29:43.920] up with a craft like that
[01:29:47.360] a lot of times you can't get too close
[01:29:48.719] to it because of the radiation factor.
[01:29:50.639] Okay. Uh Jim Macowsky, professor Jim
[01:29:54.080] Macowski, the DIA scientist who actually
[01:29:56.159] ran the Osap program before Lou Alzander
[01:29:58.480] run at you know his latest book he talks
[01:30:01.520] about actually viewing a craft and you
[01:30:04.719] can take whatever Mr. Laskkey says home
[01:30:06.639] to the bank. that guy is he's really
[01:30:09.280] straight up and uh he said you can you
[01:30:13.760] know a door opened up on it and you know
[01:30:16.400] in some time I don't know when the time
[01:30:18.159] time was but when they looked inside
[01:30:20.639] they couldn't get near the craft I mean
[01:30:22.639] too close to the craft but when they
[01:30:23.920] looked inside the craft
[01:30:26.239] the interior of the craft was the size
[01:30:29.760] of the football field but the craft was
[01:30:32.880] like 40ome feet in diameter
[01:30:36.159] So
[01:30:37.679] when you look at something like that um
[01:30:41.520] and then you understand that
[01:30:46.080] there may be whoever's driving that
[01:30:48.719] craft whether it's a remote something
[01:30:51.120] being driven remotely or there is
[01:30:52.880] actually somebody in it some entity in
[01:30:54.880] it
[01:30:56.639] um are they engineered these entities to
[01:30:59.280] become a part of the craft itself. So
[01:31:01.040] the craft is alive with the entity.
[01:31:04.800] One of the reasons they changed the term
[01:31:06.880] UFO to UAP
[01:31:09.199] was the unidentified was fine, but
[01:31:12.000] flying an object became
[01:31:15.520] ridiculous.
[01:31:16.880] >> I mean, we don't know if it's flying. It
[01:31:18.480] doesn't have any visible means of
[01:31:19.679] support. I mean, it has nothing. It just
[01:31:22.320] appears and then disappears. I mean,
[01:31:25.120] literally that quick. I mean, it went
[01:31:27.120] from 80,000 feet to 50 feet above the
[01:31:29.199] water, the tic tac did, in 0.78 seconds.
[01:31:32.800] People try to just, you know, discount
[01:31:35.280] that it's You know, when you
[01:31:37.360] look at the full and I've seen the full
[01:31:39.840] tic tac analysis, that's what it did.
[01:31:45.040] These are the best radars in the world
[01:31:47.120] and you know and uh and
[01:31:52.080] and then they appear and they disappear
[01:31:56.480] in in a flash in a microscond.
[01:31:59.520] Um, if you look at orbs, which is, you
[01:32:02.239] know, a big deal now, orbs have, and
[01:32:04.239] orbs have always been around, but
[01:32:06.560] they're a big deal now, but orbs, people
[01:32:09.120] have seen orbs morph
[01:32:11.520] into creatures, into craft.
[01:32:16.159] What the hell is that? I mean, how how
[01:32:19.040] do you explain that? I mean, are they
[01:32:20.960] breaking into some kind of dimension?
[01:32:24.400] Is it an energy level thing where
[01:32:26.080] they're lowering their energy level? You
[01:32:27.760] know what I mean? and they're coming in
[01:32:28.880] and they're able to come in and then
[01:32:30.080] they can only stay so long or what have
[01:32:31.679] you and they go back out. No idea. Uh we
[01:32:34.400] we have just have no idea. We just know
[01:32:36.639] what we see. But then again, can we
[01:32:38.800] trust what we see?
[01:32:41.760] Young uh you know, Carl Young wrote a
[01:32:43.520] book uh back in the 50 or maybe the 60s,
[01:32:46.159] I think it was the ' 50s, uh called UFOs
[01:32:48.560] or something like that. But he his claim
[01:32:51.760] was that maybe UFOs are a psychic issue
[01:32:56.480] that they they're showing the
[01:32:58.560] disequilibrium in our spirits, you know,
[01:33:00.719] based on the, you know, the nuclear um
[01:33:03.600] uh you know, age and all this other kind
[01:33:05.600] of crap. And what we're doing as as a as
[01:33:08.000] as an as a a worldwide
[01:33:11.040] uh group of people, we're we're
[01:33:13.600] projecting our anxieties out, our
[01:33:16.159] disequilibrium out into this. and this
[01:33:18.320] is what this is. I I don't think that's
[01:33:21.040] the case, but I can't discount it 100%
[01:33:23.760] that we're creating this itself. If you
[01:33:25.679] read all of Jacqu filet, right, Jacqu
[01:33:27.199] filet will and you read some folklorists
[01:33:29.840] uh you know who have also done studies
[01:33:31.199] on this and there's many of them they're
[01:33:32.880] really really good books. I'll tell you
[01:33:34.880] that, you know, you know, leprechauns,
[01:33:37.360] elementals,
[01:33:38.880] things that we used to see, you know,
[01:33:40.639] people used to see back in the day, uh,
[01:33:43.120] you know, generally mirror, you know,
[01:33:45.600] these NHI experiences and UFO
[01:33:48.080] experiences we see today. Uh, they're
[01:33:50.719] just different contexts. You know, they
[01:33:53.440] appear as one thing to somebody in the
[01:33:55.520] 15th century, but in the 21st century,
[01:33:57.360] they appear as something much more
[01:33:59.120] sophisticated. So, is it all the same
[01:34:02.320] thing? It could very well be.
[01:34:04.480] or not. Yes. Yeah. I Yeah. I apologize
[01:34:08.320] for being a font of wisdom here because
[01:34:10.159] I don't know And and and and it
[01:34:12.320] and in the end, you know, I always I I
[01:34:14.000] used to give lectures locally and stuff
[01:34:16.239] like that. I used to tell people big
[01:34:18.000] question mark would go up and I said,
[01:34:19.199] "That's what I know. I don't know
[01:34:20.320] anything." And and if you want me to
[01:34:22.480] continue speaking, I will, but you know,
[01:34:25.199] you're not going to walk you're going to
[01:34:26.400] walk out of here more confused than I
[01:34:28.080] am. Most most people. And I apologize
[01:34:30.159] for that. I wish I had an answer for
[01:34:31.840] you.
[01:34:32.400] >> Thank you so much. appreciate it.
[01:34:34.080] >> Okay.
[01:34:37.440] >> Um, any other uh audience questions?
[01:34:44.239] >> Yeah, I got like one or two more. Um,
[01:34:46.400] but yeah, just raise your hand again or
[01:34:48.960] post in the chat and then we can get to
[01:34:51.600] that. So
[01:34:54.719] um I guess a couple roles uh like the
[01:34:58.000] role of like disinformation in this
[01:35:00.159] whole space like a lot of people are
[01:35:01.520] skeptical that you know it's some like
[01:35:03.840] mass psychosis or there's like some
[01:35:07.280] people in the intelligence or whatever
[01:35:09.760] want to plant these stories to confuse
[01:35:11.600] people to distract from other things or
[01:35:13.360] it's a game of telephone etc.
[01:35:16.080] um like to what extent um do we have to
[01:35:19.360] like consider like misunderstanding
[01:35:21.679] games of telephone and active
[01:35:23.120] disinformation? You know, maybe common
[01:35:26.000] skeptical arguments.
[01:35:27.600] >> That's a really really good question and
[01:35:29.199] and um I don't have a direct answer for
[01:35:32.080] it. I I'll explain it to you this way.
[01:35:34.000] There probably were um disinformation
[01:35:39.360] techniques being used
[01:35:41.840] in the early 50s, 60s, 80s, you know,
[01:35:45.520] all the way through to try to tamp tamp
[01:35:49.600] this whole topic down. Uh as as for a a
[01:35:53.520] a possibility of a you know, a
[01:35:56.159] government program to do that, that
[01:35:57.840] would be a covert action. That's highly
[01:35:59.840] illegal. And um uh that I'm not saying
[01:36:02.480] that didn't happen. And I'm just saying
[01:36:03.840] but it would be very very illegal. You
[01:36:06.080] you can do covert action overseas but
[01:36:07.840] you cannot basically the government
[01:36:10.080] cannot come out and lie to the public. I
[01:36:11.840] mean it just cannot do that. It does it
[01:36:13.600] all the time but in smaller instances
[01:36:15.600] but this kind of thing would be way way
[01:36:18.000] too big and it would be very very
[01:36:19.280] difficult to handle. As a person who
[01:36:21.679] actually was involved in covert action
[01:36:23.199] programs overseas I can tell you these
[01:36:25.280] are not easy programs. They generally
[01:36:27.280] tend to fall apart after a certain time.
[01:36:29.520] Secrecy levels just crumble. uh counter
[01:36:31.840] intelligence problems surge. So I I
[01:36:34.320] don't think that's the case. I think
[01:36:35.600] what happened is what David Huffford,
[01:36:37.760] he's a folklorist,
[01:36:39.600] called
[01:36:41.520] a tradition of disbelief that the
[01:36:44.560] initial attempts to you know uh sit on
[01:36:47.600] this topic became
[01:36:50.800] traditional uh traditional among
[01:36:52.880] journalists uh among the military among
[01:36:55.360] everybody else. God's and it's
[01:36:56.960] kept repeating itself and repeating
[01:36:58.159] itself and repeating itself where it
[01:36:59.520] became true and I think that definitely
[01:37:03.280] exists to this very very day. Um also uh
[01:37:08.560] uh the idea of telephone yeah I mean
[01:37:11.280] that could very well exist. is I mean as
[01:37:14.000] an intelligence officer I will tell you
[01:37:15.360] if I met an asset you know somebody I
[01:37:16.960] recruited as a spy and a spy would tell
[01:37:19.520] me a story all right
[01:37:22.239] if the spy got it from somebody else
[01:37:25.199] there'd be like 20% lost in that
[01:37:27.920] conversation so he's telling me 80% of
[01:37:30.560] the true story all right if he's being
[01:37:32.400] honest and assuming he is when he tells
[01:37:35.679] me that I might miss 10% so now I'm down
[01:37:39.920] to 70%.
[01:37:41.840] So then I write this up and I send it in
[01:37:44.719] and and you know some analyst looks at
[01:37:46.719] it and he says, "Yeah, this sounds
[01:37:48.960] awfully familiar. This sounds like 70%
[01:37:52.159] close to what we actually heard on um
[01:37:55.679] you know on an electrical communications
[01:37:57.600] we intercepted. So but that's 70% is
[01:38:00.800] good enough, right? To to basically you
[01:38:02.719] know look at that information and say
[01:38:04.239] yeah and then if he has other
[01:38:06.000] information coming in, it all comes in
[01:38:07.360] and that's how you do intelligence
[01:38:08.639] assessments." Um, so yeah, there's a
[01:38:12.239] possibility that that's going on too and
[01:38:14.719] things get lost in translation. What I
[01:38:17.440] don't think is happening, I would find I
[01:38:21.280] would I'd be shocked if it was the case
[01:38:23.440] that there are some kind of cabal or
[01:38:25.600] power center
[01:38:27.520] uh, you know, sort of running things,
[01:38:29.600] you know, a shadow government. And I
[01:38:31.600] think that's just
[01:38:34.480] I don't want to say silly, but it's you
[01:38:36.400] know, having worked in the government
[01:38:37.520] for so long and having worked with the
[01:38:39.199] private sector and knowing how the
[01:38:40.560] government works and how the
[01:38:41.600] intelligence agencies work and law
[01:38:43.199] enforcement works, there's no way you
[01:38:45.199] can keep a program
[01:38:47.199] like that going for that long without it
[01:38:51.280] collapsing on top of itself. I mean, uh,
[01:38:54.159] I think what's going on is that, yeah,
[01:38:56.159] there's, you know, private sector people
[01:38:57.760] are involved and they're probably trying
[01:38:59.199] to get out of it because they they don't
[01:39:00.719] know what the hell to do with it either
[01:39:02.560] and government agencies are trying to
[01:39:04.239] keep it quiet and they're having a hard
[01:39:06.719] time doing that. And it's a hot potato,
[01:39:10.159] you know? It really truly is because it
[01:39:12.960] it really is the story of the millennial
[01:39:16.560] of the millennium. It's a story of our,
[01:39:18.560] you know, who we are uh in the end.
[01:39:20.880] didn't you know why aren't we letting
[01:39:22.480] that out? What does the government know
[01:39:24.159] that they don't want out? I I don't
[01:39:26.960] know. And is it just the US government?
[01:39:29.440] Is it the Russian government, you know,
[01:39:31.040] the French government, the British? I
[01:39:32.880] mean,
[01:39:34.639] maybe we're in touch with all of them.
[01:39:36.639] There's been talk that we are and that
[01:39:39.760] the idea is not to not to bring it up or
[01:39:42.639] not to have disclosure because the
[01:39:45.280] Russians have a program used to be
[01:39:47.440] called Thread 3. Um I don't know if what
[01:39:50.639] the name of it is now. Chinese
[01:39:52.719] definitely have a program. So
[01:39:56.560] French do, British do. So
[01:40:01.199] >> and yeah. So
[01:40:05.040] uh any other questions?
[01:40:11.600] >> Right. Yeah. So that that's a great sort
[01:40:13.440] of way of you know tying in just like
[01:40:16.719] you know your intelligence background
[01:40:18.560] and you know it's yeah I guess if it's
[01:40:21.600] good to play a game of telephone but if
[01:40:23.040] you have enough data then you can kind
[01:40:24.400] of
[01:40:25.440] >> you know
[01:40:26.639] >> cancel out the cancel out the noise. Um
[01:40:30.400] so looking forward and looking backwards
[01:40:33.040] uh how has your experience been like
[01:40:35.119] being a disclosure advocate? Um have
[01:40:37.040] there been things that went better than
[01:40:39.280] you expected? Things you wish you could
[01:40:41.520] have done better and any lessons for the
[01:40:44.320] future uh for different groups or
[01:40:46.480] different people trying to
[01:40:49.440] you know push this issue forward and
[01:40:52.239] should they be pushing the issue
[01:40:53.440] forward? I guess that's something you
[01:40:54.639] were you were even skeptical of
[01:40:55.760] yourself.
[01:40:57.280] >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean in a way I I don't
[01:40:59.760] think we have any any choice except to
[01:41:02.159] move it forward and I just think we have
[01:41:04.080] to be prepared.
[01:41:06.320] I hope we have, you know, the
[01:41:10.080] government's been thinking about this
[01:41:11.360] and we have a clarity of communication,
[01:41:15.679] a leadership that if this does come out
[01:41:18.639] that we have the proper leadership and
[01:41:20.239] and communications in store that we can
[01:41:22.800] control
[01:41:24.364] [clears throat] any kind of reactions to
[01:41:25.920] this and, you know, and and basically
[01:41:27.760] explain to the population, you know, the
[01:41:30.400] truth as far as we know it. and then um
[01:41:33.199] and then
[01:41:35.040] you know help them if they need help. I
[01:41:36.880] mean with dealing with this you know the
[01:41:38.960] other other alternative here and I also
[01:41:40.960] out of business there might be a big me
[01:41:43.040] you know if it comes out most people say
[01:41:45.600] the hell do I care you know I can't make
[01:41:47.119] my car payment that's what I'm worried
[01:41:48.639] about you know I'm not worried about you
[01:41:50.880] know and because if you look if you ask
[01:41:52.480] people you know uh what are your what
[01:41:55.199] are your major concerns I mean this
[01:41:56.960] doesn't even show up in the top 50 you
[01:42:00.320] know so
[01:42:02.080] maybe maybe that's the answer I don't
[01:42:03.679] know but anyway keep keep keep looking
[01:42:06.000] into to it. If you're interested in it,
[01:42:08.400] I would be very very careful
[01:42:10.960] trying to contact this in any way,
[01:42:13.199] shape, or form. Um, uh, that could be
[01:42:16.719] dangerous. Not all the time, but if you
[01:42:19.119] want to use a Ouija board or, you know,
[01:42:22.000] seances or, you know, or awasa, be very,
[01:42:25.760] very careful with all that. uh you let
[01:42:28.080] this thing in, you know, you better be
[01:42:30.719] well well tethered to the ground or be
[01:42:33.679] with people that are well tethered to
[01:42:35.360] the ground. So that's my advice
[01:42:38.560] >> for society to be better tethered.
[01:42:41.040] >> Yeah.
[01:42:41.679] >> Work on ourselves, get uh peace and get
[01:42:45.440] some exercise.
[01:42:47.040] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[01:42:49.516] [snorts]
[01:42:49.679] >> Uh great. Um so yeah, that was yeah,
[01:42:53.440] really wonderful conversation. Um yeah,
[01:42:55.760] thanks thanks so much for joining us.
[01:42:57.040] That was really um and you know it's
[01:42:58.880] really great to um you know hear hear
[01:43:01.520] from someone like you who's been been
[01:43:04.719] through the ringer in various different
[01:43:06.320] aspects of uh you know the government
[01:43:09.920] life and this topic. So uh that's uh
[01:43:13.280] yeah thanks thanks so much Jim. Yeah
[01:43:16.159] really hope we can um yeah hopefully we
[01:43:20.239] can get you here in the fall or
[01:43:21.440] something in or next sometime next year.
[01:43:24.320] Uh that'd be awesome.
[01:43:26.000] >> Okay. Oh, yeah. Definitely. Let's talk
[01:43:27.600] about it. And thank you again so much. I
[01:43:29.679] really do appreciate you having me on.
[01:43:31.760] >> Yeah. Thanks so much. Um any closing uh
[01:43:35.280] remarks or is that sort of good?
[01:43:37.920] >> Yeah, it's good. Good.
[01:43:40.320] >> All right. Awesome. Yeah. Thanks so
[01:43:41.360] much, Jim.
[01:43:42.000] >> All right, buddy. Bye. Bye. Bye, guys.
[01:43:43.520] >> Thank you. Bye.
[01:43:44.960] >> Bye. Right.